WASHINGTON – One of America’s pre-eminent evangelical leaders recently reasserted that Mormons are not Christians during an online debate with a well-known Mormon author.
Dr. R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, argued that Mormonism cannot be considered part of the Christian faith because it rejects historic Christianity.
“We are not talking here about the postmodern conception of Christianity that minimizes truth,” Mohler wrote. “We are not talking about Christianity as a mood or as a sociological movement. We are not talking about liberal Christianity that minimizes doctrine nor about sectarian Christianity which defines the faith in terms of eccentric doctrines.
“We are talking about historic, traditional, Christian orthodoxy,” the theologian stated.
Mohler, who often represents the Christian voice on shows such as CNN’S “Larry King Live” and Fox’s “The O’Reilly Factor,” pointed out that Mormons reject one of Christianity’s central tenets – the Trinity. Instead of believing in one God in three Persons, Mormons believe in many gods.
Moreover, followers of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe Joseph Smith Jr. is the first latter-day prophet who restored the original Christian church in the 19th century in America. They believe the entire structure of Christian orthodoxy affirmed by the post-apostolic church is corrupt and false.
Thus, Mormons reject the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed – which are based on the Bible and were agreed upon by the ancient Christian churches as statements that true believers should affirm.
In addition, the Book of Mormon, although about Jesus Christ, contains a different Jesus than traditional Bibles who is “not the only begotten Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, or the one through whose death on the cross we can be saved from our sins,” wrote Mohler.
“Without doubt, Mormonism borrows Christian themes, personalities, and narratives,” the evangelical theologian explained.
“Nevertheless, it rejects what orthodox Christianity affirms and it affirms what orthodox Christianity rejects. It is not Christianity in a new form or another branch of the Christian tradition. By its own teachings and claims, it rejects that very tradition.
“Mormonism is not Christianity by definition or description,” Mohler declared.
Orson Scott Card, the defending Mormon science fiction writer and former Mormon missionary, challenged Mohler by asking, “Who Gets to Define ‘Christian’?” in his rebuttal blog essay.
“Dr. Mohler does not get to speak for all Christians. Nor does he get to speak for all English-speakers,” Card wrote. “The ordinary meaning of the word ‘Christians’ definitely includes Mormons; and when you say Mormons are not Christians, most would take that to mean that Mormons ‘do not believe in the divinity of Christ,’ which would be flat wrong.”
In terms of Mormon’s rejection of Christian orthodoxy, Card contends the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed and others are not derived through revelation from God but through debate and political argument by man.
Card asserts that a Christian should be defined simply as anyone who confesses Christ as the only path to salvation.
The debate on whether Mormons are Christian was re-sparked by former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney’s run for the U.S. presidency. Many Christian voters have expressed hesitation on endorsing a Mormon, conveying confusion if Mormonism should be considered part of Christianity.
On a recent episode of “Larry King Live,” King had asked Mohler whether or not Romney’s faith bothered him.
“Oh, it does certainly concern me as an Evangelical Christian,” answered Mohler. “I have to answer first as a Christian and say I believe Mormonism is a false that is antithetical to historic orthodox Christianity.”
He then went on to say, “But, at the same time, I'm not electing a theologian. I'm looking at electing a president, and I will have to consider all of those things in the context of what a candidate represents.”
The debate between Mohler and Card through “blog dialogue” began June 28 and will continue for an unspecified period of time on the Web site Beliefnet.com.
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Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worship Jesus Christ of Nazareth, he who is the Word of God in the Bible. Mormons affirm and believe that He is the Creator, the Savior, and the Redeemer of the world. These beliefs qualify Mormons as Christians. According to Mormonism, Jesus Christ is a self-existent being that has been creating worlds for an eternity.
However, Mormons are different from other Christians in that they do not accept many traditional Christian beliefs such as Creation ex nihilo, the Orthodox Trinity doctrine or the Creeds of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries, which were written by Catholic councils, sola scriptura, and other post biblical additions to the New Testament Church. The Creeds are not scripture, and therefore cannot count as a scriptural measurement.
Mormons are NOT Christians. They worship a false Christ. Their Jesus is NOT the self-existent creator of the universe, but a created being. They believe Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. This makes them non-Christian, and these are just the icing on the cake.
Division between Christians comes from the evil one. We are saved by faith in Christ as the son of God due to grace. After that what kind of wine we drink at His table, what kind of music we use to praise him, what kind of underwear we have one make little difference. I am a Baptist, but I welcome anyone as my brother or sister in Christ as we do our best to live as he did. This country would not be in the mess it's in right now, if we (Christians) had lived out the instructions of our Lord Jesus Christ. Let us reason together, and may God almighty always be our guide.
Wally, your comment is partially true (the first part), but the second part, where you say that Mormons believe their Jesus is better than the Christian Jesus is false. It's a sad lie, because in fact, we say that we worship the same Jesus as the Christian world; though we do say that we just might know him better... Is that prideful? It definitely COULD be, but only if we're wrong. Come and see for yourselves- don't let Dr. Mohler control your mind and decisions- act for yourself- your mind is free and able to discern truth from error if you can eliminate fear and think for yourself; and, when it comes to thinking for yourself, there is no more important topic in all the world:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yPQR4UlXqs
Dr. Mohler believes he is right and everyone else who reads the Bible differently than him is wrong. But Houston, we have a problem, where did he get HIS authority? His Ph.D.? Authority to speak for God comes directly from God, not from a Theological Seminary. On behalf of all Israel (both Ephraim and Judah) I say: Give us a True Prophet or give us no prophet at all.
Christians should be careful about how they deal with Mormonism. Mormons are leading the charge on many moral issues important to Christians. Before attacking Mormons without understanding them, seek to understand them:
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
We Mormons are labeled a "cult" because:
1) We do not believe in a false sectarian notion about the Trinity which was nothing more than the convenient agreement among admittedly confused men who were trying to keep a Church united in the same way many "Christian" churches are currently trying to remain united today, and
2) We believe that God can and does speak today to all who will qualify themselves to hear His voice and to His Prophets- like He has always done.
If you want to learn about what we believe- don't listen to those who have money to gain by attacking us. Listen to us:
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
What do Mormons believe in? They believe in all the truth possessed by the Christian world and yet they have something to add to that truth:
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
A LOT of "Priests" are angry at Mormonism and trying to find anything against them that they can? Why? Because these Priests are losing their followers. People want answers from God, not men:
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
said cgmorris in the post below mine....
" It is DISHONEST and un-christian like for any other Christian religion or faith to proclaim that another (which believes in Jesus Christ) is not Christian."
This is a hypocritical stance. I have been told by Mormons that I am an "Apostate", despite that I am a practicing Orthodox Christian, who believes in Jesus Christ and of salvation by grace, and the good news of the Bible. Jesus Christ is my judge, and there is only one Jesus, the historical Jesus who is the son of man, and who's father and him are one and the same. In whose book am I an "apostate"?
Orthodox Christians do not concern themselves with being rewarded for their faith... faith itself in the fullness of love in Christ is reward enough! if we take care of todays calling, the future will take care of itself... thats what faith is about, BELIEF, not knowledge. Its not our matter to focus on specifics of afterlife reward, or details of personal glory or attaining godhood.
I discerned Mormonism and "took on the discussions", and weighed it very seriosuly for my life in 1994-1995. While I think Mormons are good people, have good family lives, are good at taking care of each other, and set a good example at many things-- refuse alcohol and tobacco-- all good things-- It was the Mormon theology and cosmology that struck me as cult like: It humanizes God, and deifies man, in that man can become like our God-- I felt it unnecessary (and dangerous) to entertain the world view of our God as a potential peer through our efforts, which, if a man thinks himself to be achieving, gives rise to great pride while still here in this life. Only from pride can come the belief that "our Jesus is better than your Jesus", which is a commonly held Mormon epithet, albeit unspoken, but universally believed within Mormonism. From all my studies and readings, pride is not a christian concept, in fact, pride and humility are diametric. Pride is competative and comparative in nature -- its a devils game.
It feels like Mormonism is using the Bible to put the face of respectability and gain mainstream acceptance for its beliefs, rather direct hearts solely towards the Bible. Instead of receiving their own godhood and rewarding them with their celestial glory, Jesus may decide to show them to their personal tool sheds to live in, to learn humility first.
+ wally
It is absurd to deny any person or set of religous beliefs or faith which believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior that they are not Christian.
Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ is a Christian. It is DISHONEST and un-christian like for any other Christian religion or faith to proclaim that another (which believes in Jesus Christ) is not Christian.
Up to this point in my life no one has been able to adequately explain what "Traditional Orthodox Christianity" is or it's doctrines. Because all that really matters in this discussion is wether or not the doctrines are founded in scripture or not. I have studied the Bible and can tell you without a doubt that "Mormon" doctrine is founded in the Bible. Someone asked the prophet Joseph Smith once do "Mormon"s believe in the Bible?", it is interesting and ironic what his response was.
One thing I thought was odd about "Traditonal Orthodox Christianity" is the acceptance of the creeds as scriptural. Which also contradicts the proclaimation that scriptures are the source of the doctrines.
The source of Mormon's (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) beliefs and doctrines are "purely" from the Scriptures. They believe that the "Gospel" is not of man such as "Traditional Orthodox Christianity" but comes from those who have been AUTHORIZED by Heavenly Father which are known to be prophets of God. Not something that has been passed down by tradition and has been tainted by man over 2000 years.
It is interesting to note that the "Traditional Orthodox" Jews rejected Christ and His message because it did not follow their traditions. He was stoned for it several times for "blasphemy". This ironic because blasphemy is when someone who does not have authority from God, speaks for Him, in His name, and changes His Law. Anyone who usurps authority in this manner is in danger of the judgement. It is ironic that the real blasphemers were the "Tradional Orthodox" proffessors who don't have any real authority.
If you want to check out my dissertation and a debate I had, arguing for Mormonism as a denomination within Christianity
email me at
joze14rock@yahoo.com
Saved for him...TRUTHANDJUSTICE...The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one and the same...duh. I was answering a mormon question about where it appears in the bible I said that it doesn't that is why protestants rely on the Nicene Creed/Council of Constantinople.Show me in the bible where it explains the trinity lol As for your question about saints refer to http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp
Christianity is not a religion, it is a way of life. It is a life living for Jesus Christ and giving up of your own life for Him.
That goes for Mormon or Roman Catholic religions. I want someone to show me in the Bible where it says you have to be a roman catholic in order to go to Heaven. Jesus never said that you need to be catholic. He never even spoke of religion, he spoke of following Him in order to go to the Father.
Even catholics aren't christian, they pray to dead people...saint matthew, saint frances..mary...etc...thinking that these saints will bring them closer to God which is not true.
We as a generation have to be speaking more about how God is a God of Love not of religion.
TRUTHANDJUSTICE...The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one and the same.
No where in the bible is the concept of the trinity explained. Evangelicals believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one in the same. In genesis we read that God created man in his own image. Not sure how God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost can be one in the same if we have been created in their image...fair question...I guess most protestants don't question it anymore than they do certain holidays (All Saints day (halloween), St. Pat's Day, St. Valentine's Day, who decided the date for Christmas etc......) Anybody who does any real research into Christianity finds answers in the Catholic Church.
No where in the bible is the concept of the trinity explained. Evangelicals believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one in the same. In genesis we read that God created man in his own image. Not sure how God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost can be one in the same if we have been created in their image...fair question...I guess most protestants don't question it anymore than they do certain holidays (All Saints day (halloween), St. Pat's Day, St. Valentine's Day, who decided the date for Christmas etc......) Anybody who does any real research into Christianity finds answers in the Catholic Church.
LOL, it seems odd. I guess people like my e-mail address, and some don't.
I have a question. Why did DannyPoo get four thumbs up and one thumb down for giving his email address? Am I the only one who thinks this is funny?
johnjohnson, I think maybe you forgot to mention the part about the Mormon church believing that they are the one true church. I think that has a very large part in this debate.
It's amazing to me that people report that Mormons are not Christians, but do not report why with any detail. Most evangelicals argue this point based on two things: 1, Mormons do not endorse the Trinity, and 2, the Book of Mormon is added scripture.
No where in the bible is the concept of the trinity explained. Evangelicals believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one in the same. In genesis we read that God created man in his own image. Not sure how God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost can be one in the same if we have been created in their image. Further, the trinity comes primarily from the Nicean creed, developed by men (not prophets) some 400 years after Christ's death. If you have ever read the Nicean creed, it is very hard to understand. Finally, isn't interesting that the very people who reject the Book of Mormon as added scripture accept the Nicean creed as such? They don't say this in any thing they write, but they might as well.
Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. They believe that through Christ's atonement, which includes His death on the cross, all can be saved. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (not the Church of Latter Day Saints, let's get it right guys) teaches that all mankind can be saved through this atonement, and that this gift is not withheld from anyone. This is truly a gift from a loving God.
In the end, those who critically think will see that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus is the Christ, that the Book of Mormon can only be the word of God, and that He is the most loving being in the Universe. Critical thinkers will also see that those who consider Mormons a cult may be more of one themselves.... afterall, they do not believe in the biblical god head - they believe in some man made concept called the trinity. They believe in some document that was written by men 400 years after Christ. Isn't that the definition of a Cult?
Finally, let me say this. Please don't banter with me. Take the time to really research this. I did. It's helped me make up my mind on this matter. Put all your history aside for a moment and consider the possibilities. Good luck in your journey.
I always find it "interesting" when protestants use the Nicene Creed/Council of Constantinople... I can understand why the Pope made the comments he made today. Protestants, Mormons, Scientologists, New Age,....can any of them trace themselves back to the apostles? Although the mormons have come up with an interesting way to do it by seeing themselves as a lost tribe. However, historically there is ONLY one.
Forgot to reference that last verse
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 43:10
In response to DarrellSwain,
First, C.S. Lewis, or any Christian leader no matter how great, are subject to Scripture. In Orthodox Christianity, we do not submit to popular writers, we submit to Scripture and Christ. C.S. Lewis was incorrect in interpretation of that scripture. He was referencing John 10:34-35 which states:
"Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),"
I will now ask you, do you know from what scripture was Jesus quoting, and what was he trying to say? If we take it literally, then he is calling the Pharisees whom he often rebuked, "Gods" in the present tense. Were the Pharisees Gods at that time? of course not.
Jesus was quoting an old testament verse, hence why Jesus said "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came..."
Psalms 82:6 which reads
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. "
Interesting verse, and if read out of context, appears to support Mormonism. What you don't know if you don't read the context is that it is God rebuking the Judges of Israel
Lets look at the next verse:
"But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes."
this was a rebuke of the Judges of Israel. It begins to become extremely clear why Jesus quotes it to the Pharisees
There is simply no justification in scripture for claiming the bible teaches you can become Gods. It can only happen if you wish to take scripture out of context.
I would simply ask that everyone in Mormonism, BELIEVE the bible, it clearly states
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
Before him was no God, nor shall there be any formed after him.
In response to Jessica333. This is not intended to be a personal affront to your comments but let us, in a spirit of honest and open debate, discuss these issues you have brought forward. This dialogue was begun as a result of Mitt Romney running for the President of the United States. So let me focus this response on his candidacy as I am sure many here on this website and throughout this country struggle with the same concerns concerning his religion and whether it will be a factor in his decision making abilities.
You have said Mitt Romney is "caught in a gruesome web of spiritual deception." because he believes, as you say, "that he will one day be a god of his own world." Briefly, a doctrinal turn, Christ commands and teaches, "be ye therefore perfect, even as my father in heaven is perfect" and those that attain this perfection and “overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” (Rev 3:21) Paul references that through our faith, works and finally the grace of God, we may become “joint heirs” with Christ. Finally. C.S. Lewis a popular Christian author and member of the Church of England, has repeatedly expressed his belief of our being one day “Gods.” In Mere Christianity he writes, “The command ‘Be ye therefore perfect’ is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the bible) that we were ‘gods’ and he is going to make good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent him, if we choose-He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. This process will be long and in parts very painful, but that is what we are in for. NOTHING LESS. He meant what he said.”(pgs. 203-304) The doctrines of the kingdom, especially those of exaltation, godhood, and even the path we must walk to attain these things, are meant to be learned “line upon line, and precept upon precept, here a little and there a little.” What commonly happens when attacks are made at the church or its members, is simply that individuals will take a doctrinal point, cheapen it, and use it in a negative tone to prove a simple point. In essence, its taking a shortcut from point A to point B by picking up a tenth of the way through and dumping us on point B. We miss out on all the good scenery in between and we are left jaded and misinformed.
The doctrines should not be used to either a). endorse a candidate or b). refuse a candidate. “A gruesome web of spiritual deception” is a wonderful term, yet it more aptly applies to those who are entrenched in the debasing acts of sin. Which sin causes one to take idealogical shortcuts (rationalizations), such that 1. There is no God. 2. If there is no God there can be no law. 3. If there is no law, there is no sin. 4. If there is no sin, then no Redeeming Christ. And on. And on down a slippery slope.
Let us judge men by the content of their character and their ability to make rational, inspired decisions and leave the doctrines out for another topic and another blog.
I became a Christian while being raised by devout mormon parents. My father was a high priest...my mother served as relief society president. And I served as the president of our ward's youth organization. Dubbed as "special" and "spiritual", I was often asked to give "talks" during weekly services. Monday nights were reserved for our Family Home Evenings, and we concluded each day on our knees in prayer.
But it was not until I was 8 years old that I heard the true gospel for the first time when I attended a neighborhood Christian church with a friend. For the first time, I heard a preacher describe my internal struggle with sin perfectly. For the first time, I heard someone describe the sin nature that accompanies each physical birth, and its need for redemption. For the first time, my eyes recognized the cross as the point of origin, where sin dies and new life begins...not a weapon of destruction (which is the perception of mormons whose confused theology denigrates the cross as a weapon used to kill rather than the instrument of salvation.) And finally, I heard the divinity of Christ exalted as the One and Only Way of salvation... Not one of many gods...nor the created son of one of many gods...but the One true God over the heavens and earth through whom all things were made. At 18, I abandoned mormonism, following the Lord's lead to a Bible Study. After nine years of intense study, God's Word succeeded in peeling away the scar tissue of deceit, grafting in the truth found only in the Bible.
Do I hate mormons? No, they are not the enemy. I remember what it felt like to be ostracized and abused by many well-intentioned Christians.
Would I vote for a mormon president, who met the qualifications and was a "good" man? Absolutely not... A man caught in such a gruesome web of spiritual deception could not possibly lead a country-in-crisis with God's strength and discernment. A man who believes that he will one day become a god of his own world will not lead under the yoke and in submission to the God of this universe. Remember Jesus' words to those deceived by appearances, "Woe to you... You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean..." Matt. 23:27
Do not lower your defenses against this seemingly harmless, peace-loving cult... Heed the warning..."And no wonder, for satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness..." 2 Cor. 11:14-15
"gospeltruth", no one ever stated that there were not problems within the Orthodox Christian Church. If having problems within the Christian Church invalidates it, then it certainly would make the Mormon Church invalid. The entire website of exmormon.org demonstrates stories of thousands of people abused, mistreated, lied too, etc. there is a plethora of problems that are supressed by the LDS Church.
Once again though in fairness, I will recognize, that having problems within either the LDS church or the Orthodox Church does not invalidate whether one or the other is true. Truth, is independant of whether people abuse it or people fail to align with it.
If you would like to talk about this in e-mail, please e-mail me. xdannypoox@aol.com
What do Christian authorities think of Orthodox Christianity?
From www.fairlds.org:
Roger Williams, pastor of the oldest Baptist Church in America at Providence, Rhode Island, refused to continue as pastor on the grounds that, "There is no regularly-constituted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking." (Picturesque America, or the Land We Live In, ed. William Cullen Bryant, New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1872, vol. 1, p. 502.)
Williams also said, "The apostasy... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew." (Underhill, Edward, "Struggles and Triumphs of Religious Liberty", cited in William F. Anderson, "Apostasy or Succession, Which?", pp. 238-39)
In a work prepared by seventy-three noted theologians and Bible students, we read: "...we must not expect to see the Church of Holy Scripture actually existing in its perfection on the earth. It is not to be found, thus perfect, either in the collected fragments of Christendom, or still less in any one of these fragments. . . ." (Dr. William Smith, Smith's Dictionary of the Bible, Boston: Houghton, Mifflin and Company, 1896.)
Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick, prominent American Baptist clergyman and author, described the decadent condition of the Christian churches of the first half of the twentieth century in these words:
"A religious reformation is afoot, and at heart it is the endeavor to recover for our modern life the religion of Jesus as against the vast, intricate, largely inadequate and often positively false religion about Jesus. Christianity today has largely left the religion which he preached, taught and lived, and has substituted another kind of religion altogether. If Jesus should come back to now, hear the mythologies built up around hint, see the creedalism, denominationalism, sacramentalism, carried on in his name, he would certainly say, 'If this is Christianity, I am not a Christian.'"
John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, lamented that the Christian had apostatized from the gospel that Christ and the apostles had taught, had lost the spiritual gifts that they once enjoyed, and had turned heathen again with only a dead form left:
"It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were common in the church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the emperor Constantine called himself a Christian, and from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby, heaped riches and power and honor upon Christians in general, but in particular upon the Christian clergy. From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found. The cause of this was not as has been supposed because there was no more occasion for them because all the world was become Christians. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause of it was the love of many, almost all Christians, so called, was waxed cold. The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine His Church, could hardly find faith upon the earth. This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church because the Christians were turned heathens again, and only had earth a dead form left." (Wesley's Works, vol. 7, 89:26, 27)
In the Church of England Homily Against Peril of Idolatry we read: "So that laity and clergy, learned and unlearned, all ages, sects, and degrees of men, women, and children of whole Christendom -- an horrible and most dreadful thing to think -- have been at once drowned in abominable idolatry; of all other vices most detested by God, and most damnable to man; and that by the space of eight hundred years and more." The Book of Homilies dates from about the middle of the sixteenth century; and in it is thus officially affirmed that the so-called Church and the whole religious world had been utterly apostate for eight centuries or more prior to the establishment of the Church of England.
In the words of one eminent historian, "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. The Greek mind, dying, came to a transmigrated [new] life in the theology and liturgy of the Church." (Will Durant, The Story of Civilization, 3:595.)
Thomas Jefferson, though not a cleric in the usual sense, was a great student of Christianity. Even he acknowledged the loss of the original gospel and said that he looked forward to "the prospect of a restoration of primitive Christianity."
Are Mormons Christian? See http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai052.html for the real facts.
What do Mormon authorities think of Orthodox Christianity?
John Taylor, the third President of the Mormon Church said:
"Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its [Christianity] pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 167).
Spencer Kimball, twelfh President of the LDS Church:
"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)
"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world." ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith," Compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, page 270.)
(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. . .)
First -- "Do you believe the Bible?"
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do."
Third — "Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings, page 119.)
Is Mormonism Christian?
http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_christian.htm
Also, for more information on Mormonism
http://www.carm.org/mormon.htm
To see what Mormons really think of Jesus, check out wetestifyofchrist.blogspot.com
I agree with crossfire's first statement that being 'Christian' means not just believing in Christ, but following him. However, his second statement (Mormons are not following him [Christ] and his words) is contrary to the facts. For example, in 2005 the National Study of Youth and Religion done by the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill found that LDS youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit Christian characteristics for EVERY CHRISTIAN CHARACTERISTIC than their Evangelical counterparts. The specific results, with the LDS % followed by the Evangelical % were:
Attend Religious Services weekly 71% vs 55%
Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life – extremely important 52% vs 28%
Believes in life after death 76% vs 62%
Has taught religious education classes 42% vs 28%
Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline 68% vs 22%
Sabbath Observance 67% vs 40%
Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith 72% vs 56%
Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily 50% vs 19%
Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen (very supportive) 65% vs 26%
Another study done by UCLA found that observant members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in their 50s and 60s had one-twentieth the divorce rate, abuse rate, or substance abuse of a demographically similar group in Southern California.
Because Mormons believe in the Bible as taught and understood by Christ, his apostles, and the first century Christians and don't accept the 4th century creeds created by man does not mean that Mormons are not Christians and Mormons certainly follow Christ as demonstrated by how they live their lives.
Forgot to give my e-mail xdannypoox@aol.com, thanks again
::begin quote:: Who said, "God became man that man might become like God"? Was this man a Christian? And it was not Lorenzo Snow.
If the Bible defines Christianity, can you show me the verses that do that? And explain how those verses would exclude the LDS Church? Stick to the Bible, please. ::endquote::
Marvin, thanks for the comments. Lorenzo Snow did indeed say this
::begin quote:: "From President Snow's understanding of the teachings of the Prophet on this doctrinal point, he coined the familiar couplet: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.' ::end quote:: Marion Romney (1st Presidency) LDS General Conference, October 1964
Also this link will explain in detail why LDS Mormonism is not Christian. http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_christian.htm
Marvin, please feel free to e-mail me with questions, comments, disagreements. I will answer in a respectful manner and I enjoy discussing these matters.
Blackbaron you said:
>>Don't pray about it to see if you'll get the warm fuzzies( Jeremiah 17:9), you can't trust those feelings, instead try STUDYING the Bible and testing the claims of the TRUE Jesus Christ of the scriptures<<
While I appreciate that you like Mormons, I am frankly amazed at this comment.
Do you truly believe people shouldn't pray to know the truth about God? Do you not believe God reveals Himself to us individually and helps us to know who He is and how to follow Him?
I study the Bible every day. I put its truths to practice in my life every day--I "walk the walk," so to say. I have done the same with the Book of Mormon. Quite frankly, this idea that Mormons don't study and ponder and practice the truths taught in the Bible is false. The Bible is the foundation of my belief in the Book of Mormon.
It is not convenient to be a Mormon. It would be much easier to not be a Mormon. Why would I want to be part of a religion that is frequently attacked, maligned, mocked, and over which I have lost friends who told me I wasn't Christian and that they would "pray for me" but couldn't be friends with me? Why would I be a Mormon unless I received a firm witness from the Spirit of God through my studying and through my pondering and prayers that it was true?
I was born a Mormon, but I longed to get away from it because you see I thought I would "fit in" better with everyone else if I left. But before I did so, I decided that I had to be sure that I was doing God's will. And so I investigated other faiths, beliefs, religions, etc. I attended the religious meetings of other Christian denominations. And I studied my Bible and yes, I studied the Book of Mormon.
And here I am, still a Mormon. Why? Because God has witnessed to me in every way--spiritually, intellectually, emotionally, and physically that this is His Church and that His Son, Jesus Christ, is at the head of it.
And once I received such a pure witness from Him, there is nothing that can separate me from Him and His gospel.
If anyone were to ask me how I received my answer from God my counsel would be similar to yours with one exception--STUDY the Bible and test the claims of the TRUE Jesus Christ and then PRAY about what you have learned as you apply those teachings to your life. You'll be closer to God and as one of His sheep you will hear His voice and recognize it as you seek to follow Him.
I like Mormons. My dad, brother, and brother in law are all Mormon and very nice people but this is a non-issue and should not even be up for debate. Of course Mormons are not Christians. They believe that they are indeed the only true Christians however and the only true church. Often individual members are unaware of the real history and teachings of the LDS church.
Oh and Russianwolfe, are you saying that mormonism does not teach that men may become gods over their own planets and that the Father Himself was once a man who attained "godhood" and that Jesus is a created being?
While it may be true that many professing Christians are ignorant of the historic and Bible based creeds, this in no way invalidates them. Don't pray about it to see if you'll get the warm fuzzies( Jeremiah 17:9), you can't trust those feelings, instead try STUDYING the Bible and testing the claims of the TRUE Jesus Christ of the scriptures (not including BoM, D&C, PoGP).
I invite "Dr". Mohler to briefly explain the Apostle and Nicene Creeds so that those who call themselves Christian can understand them. While many, though by no means all, Christian churches have formally adopted these creeds, the vast majority do not teach or practice them. Why, because they are impossible to understand. They are nonsensicle. The God who created us and this wonderful earth for us to dwell, did not inspire these contradicting documents. He is a God of order, not of confusion. If "Dr." Mohler, or anyone else, surveyed what he considers to be true believers, he would find almost no one comprehends, much less believes, these forged replacements for scripture. But, don't take my word for it, pray and ask God.
Who said, "God became man that man might become like God"? Was this man a Christian? And it was not Lorenzo Snow.
If the Bible defines Christianity, can you show me the verses that do that? And explain how those verses would exclude the LDS Church? Stick to the Bible, please.
I believe in Christ and in his Atonement and in his Resurrection. I also believe that he works with the children of men today as he did in the past as described in the Bible. I am a Mormon. I read the Bible and the other scriptures that the Lord has revealed for us today. I find that it is easier to believe in the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and in an unchangeable God than in any of the other beliefs that others have described to me in their attempt to destroy my faith. My faith in Christ is firm and steadfast. I know my savior lives.
Marvin
I have studied Mormonism thoroughly, encountering many Mormons in my witnessing. To quote their past Prophet Lorenzo Snow "As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become". This is obviously not a Christian belief system. In Mormonism all males have the possibility of becoming a God.
Even as a young Christian, I asked the Lord about Mormonism. At that age, I had no cognitive knowledge about what Mormons believed. I was immediately shocked when I heard the Lord say "NO" seven times, and he gave me the sense that there was something spiritually twisted about their organization. Much later, I discovered that right at the beginning of the book of Mormon, Joseph Smith sites seven people that were suppose to be witnesses to golden plates being the source of the book of Mormon. As I studied the Bible, it clearly taught that the doctrines of Mormonism and the Jehovah Witnesses prevent right standing before the One and Only Holy God. I have a free gospel tract that people can download from off my anti-Darwinism blog site that refutes both Mormonism and the Jehovah Witnesses while preaching the Gospel. It is located on the right side panel of this site. ===>> http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com/ A life that is surrendered to Jesus Christ the Lord is never wasted.
I am a Pentecostal believer, And Mormonism is not by any means Christian . And the Bible defines Christanity.
I'm not a theologian or anything, but for me, being 'Christian' means not just believing in Christ, but following him. And Mormons, based on what they believe, may believe in Christ but surely are not following him and his words.