Mormons believe in a false gospel and are not Christians, concluded one of the nation’s preeminent evangelicals in what appeared to be the close of an online debate over Mormonism.
“Here is the bottom line. As an Evangelical Christian – a Christian who holds to the ‘traditional Christian orthodoxy’ of the Church – I do not believe that Mormonism leads to salvation,” wrote Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, on Wednesday evening.
“To the contrary, I believe that it is a false gospel that, however sincere and kind its adherents may be, leads to eternal death rather than to eternal life,” he stated.
Mohler’s response is part of an ongoing “blog dialogue” sponsored by the Web site Beliefnet.com. Since June 28, the evangelical scholar and prominent Mormon science-fiction writer Orson Scott Card have been debating whether Mormons can be considered Christians.
During the course of the debate, Card focused on whether Mormons are moral people, good citizens and why Mormon presidential candidate Mitt Romney should be supported by evangelicals. He emphasized that Mormons share many of the same values as evangelical Christians and believe Jesus Christ is the only path to salvation.
However, Mohler noted that whether a Mormon has similar moral values to evangelical Christians is beside the point because Beliefnet.com had asked whether Mormons can be considered Christians based on traditional Christian orthodoxy.
“It appears that we are not really discussing the same question,” noted Mohler in his latest blog response.
“The debate has never been about whether Mormons are good Americans or would make good neighbors,” he wrote.
“I dare say that most American Evangelicals and traditional Roman Catholics would find more in common with Mormons in terms of child-rearing, sexual morality, the protection of marriage and family, and a host of other issues, than they would with liberal Catholics or liberal Protestants,” acknowledged Mohler.
But Mormonism from its beginning has rejected traditional Christian orthodoxy, which is part of the core Mormon identity, pointed out the highly-respected theologian. The subtitle of The Book of Mormon is “Another Testament of Jesus Christ.”
“A ‘testament,’ that is, other than that accepted by the historic Christian churches,” Mohler highlighted.
Mohler – who is often seen on “Larry King Live” and other popular news show representing the Christian voice – concluded that Mormonism is not just another form of Christianity and is incompatible with “traditional Christian orthodoxy.”
Mormon defender Card readily agrees with Mohler that Mormons do not fit into the Christian category as defined by traditional Christian orthodoxy. However, he argues that Mormons should be considered “nontraditional Christians.”
“Despite our deep differences of belief over the nature of God and his plans for his children, we recognize that those who believe in the other Christian faiths have taken a giant step closer to fulfilling the intentions of our Lord,” wrote Card on Thursday. “They are, in heart and mind, Christians.”
He further added, “We ask only the same favor in return. Let’s take that word ‘traditional’ and make use of it. Instead of saying that we are ‘not Christian’…let us agree that Mormons are ‘nontraditional Christians.’”
Card looked back on Christian history when Protestant Christian denominations were not accepted as part of the traditional church according to the Catholic viewpoint, and was even condemned guilty of heresy.
He concluded: “Call us ‘nontraditional Christians’ and continue to encourage your communicants not to believe our doctrines. We’ll happily continue to call you ‘traditional Christians’ and teach people why they should believe our doctrines.”
The Mormon defender ended by calling for unity in a world where Christians are persecuted and expressed appreciation that Dr. Mohler affirmed that Mormons should be equally considered for American public offices regardless of theological difference.
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Regarding: Mormons are not Christians, please refer to the following link for a statement by a Mormon leader for correct doctrinal information. Thank you.
http://broadcast.lds.org/genconf/2007/10/20/GC_2007_10_27_HollandJR__02381_eng_vc1.wmv
Warmest regards,
Mormonism is at best Pagan with a mixture of borrowed masonic rituals. They believe in three gods and they eventually seek to become god. The Mormon god is flesh and bone. On the other hand, the Christ in the Bible took on human flesh, in order to condemn sin in the flesh. The God of the Bible is Spirit (period).
A former mormon archaeologist has even confirmed that there was NO trace of jewish blood among the American indians in both north and south America which discredits the enitire storyline of the book of mormon rendering it to fantasy not reality.
In 1977, hundreds of thousands of mormons left mormonism after the original manuscript of the book of Abraham which Joseph Smith wrote was examined by an egyptologist who shockingly announced that the images on the clothe manuscript was NOT a translation from Eygtian at all. What was it? It was egytian pornography between Orisis and the snake-god Isis.
FEEL free to Download a free tract about the Truth about the JW's and MORMON's on the right-hand side bar of ==== >> http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
Are you guys going to run around the block to find what is right in front of you? See this link which is a study of JS's false prophecies (and we all know what to think about someone who makes a single mistake) ...
http://www.irr.org/mit/jsfalpro.html
Joseph Smith was no true prophet of God, he was self-deceived. No more of this "Is the BOM from god or not?" Let's not waste any more time with this nonsense. The same goes for the JW's and and the Moonies and any other sect that dares to claim it speaks for God.
What leads to Salvation = JESUS CHRIST! "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father, except through me." These are Jesus on words! HE said it, it is good enough for me.
God's Word speaks clearly to those who have The Holy Spirit; as The Holy Word is spiritually discerned! Without The Holy Spirit, man does not rightly divide the Word of God!
I pray for anyone and everyone who adds anything to the finished work of Jesus Christ! HE did it all folks; our part is to simply believe that HE DID! Believe what GOD says and OBEY what HE says! Thank you Lord God for the simplicity of Your Word to YOUR Children! For those who have hears, HEAR what The Spirit is saying. For Your Glory Lord God!
www.carm.org if you want to know more
Joseph Smith said that Facsimile No. 1 was of a bird as the "Angel of the Lord" with "Abraham fastened upon an altar," "being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest. The pots under the altar were various gods "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, Pharaoh," etc.
In reality, this is "an embalming scene showing the deceased lying on a lion-couch."2
In the original papyri, this drawing is attached to hieroglyphics (See figure A) from which Joseph derived the beginning of the book of Abraham which begins with the words, "In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence"(1:1). In reality, the hieroglyphics translate as, "Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons -- and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified -- after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breath forever and ever as the bas of the gods do."3
"It is the opening portion of an Egyptian Shait en Sensen, or Book of Breathings . . . a late funerary text that grew out of the earlier and more complex Book of the Dead." "This particular scroll was prepared (as determined by handwriting, spelling, content, etc.) sometime during the late Ptolemaic or early Roman period (circa 50 B.C. to A.D. 50)."4
The Papyri are found To every one’s surprise, in 1966 the papyri were rediscovered in one of the vault rooms of the New York’s metropolitan Museum of Art. The Deseret News of Salt Lake City on Nov. 27, 1967 acknowledged the rediscovery of the papyri. On the back of the papyri were "drawings of a temple and maps of the Kirtland, Ohio area."1 There could be no doubt that this was the original document from which Joseph Smith translated the book of Abraham. With the papyri rediscovered and Egyptian hieroglyphics decipherable since the late 1800's, it would then be an easy task of translating the papyri and proving once and for all that Joseph Smith was a prophet with the gift of "Seer" as he and the Mormon church have claimed. This would then prove the truth of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and would vindicate Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God.-What do the Experts say?
Joseph Smith copied three drawings from the Egyptian scrolls, labeled them Facsimile No. 1, No. 2, and No. 3, and incorporated them into the Book of Abraham with explanations of what they were. Egyptologists have viewed the drawings and found Joseph Smith's interpretation of them to be wrong. But, the Mormons, in defense of the sacred book, maintained that the Facsimiles alone were not sufficient to prove that Joseph Smith was erring in his translating abilities. With the rediscovery of the papyri, not only were there the same drawings in the scrolls, but so was the text from which Joseph Smith made his translation. I
But his Seer abilities did not stop there. In July of 1835, an Irishman named Michael Chandler brought an exhibit of four Egyptian mummies and papyri to Kirtland Ohio, then the home of the Mormons. The papyri contained Egyptian hieroglyphics. In 1835 hieroglyphics were unreadable.
As Prophet and Seer of the Church, Joseph Smith was given permission to look at the papyri scrolls in the exhibit and to everyone's shock, revealed that "one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt" (History of the Church, Vol. 2: 236. July 1835). The Church bought the exhibit for $2400. Joseph finished the translation of the Book of Abraham some time later, but the book of Joseph was never translated. The papyri were lost soon afterwards and thought to have been destroyed in a fire in Chicago in 1871. There was, therefore, no way to validate Joseph's translation. If the papyri were re-discovered and translated it would either prove or disprove the abilities of Joseph as a prophet of God. After all, he was supposed to be a prophet and have the abilities of a Seer as the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham supposedly proved. In October of 1880 The Pearl of Great Price, a collection of writings, which contained the book of Abraham, was recognized as scripture by the Mormon Church.
The Papyri are found
The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith There are many proofs that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, but Mormons typically, will not accept them. From the biblical evidence that contradicts Mormon theology, to the contradictions within its own history and doctrine, proofs abound. But Mormons, completely dedicated to their religion and their testimony, cannot and will not see the evidence. They rely not on biblical evidence, not on historical evidence, but rather trust a 'testimony' that Mormonism is the restored church and Joseph Smith its true prophet.
One of the tests of whether or not a belief is grounded in reality is whether or not it can be proven to be true or false. If someone says, "I don't care what evidence you show me, I will always believe," then that person's faith is not rooted in reality. And since Christianity is a religion of history, crucifixion, resurrection, an empty tomb, etc., it is a religion rooted in reality. If it could be proven beyond doubt that Jesus did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is a false religion. Likewise, if it could be proven that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, then Mormonism is a false religion. It just so happens that there is such a proof.The Book of Abraham
Joseph Smith claimed that an angel appeared to him and revealed the location of some golden plates on which was written the account of the ancient people of the Americas. Joseph Smith later translated those plates into what is now known as the Book of Mormon. This translation was done by the power of God through special means. Joseph Smith, being the Lord's chosen instrument, became the prophet of the Mormon church, held the office of Seer. A Seer, according to the Book of Mormon in Mosiah 8:13, can translate records that are untranslatable. Hence, Joseph Smith was able to translate the golden plates into the Book of Mormon. But his
The point is this; regardless of one's affiliation, if we are trusting in ourselves, our church, our church leaders for salvation; we have all missed the mark. Salvation in found in the completed work of Jesus Christ; period.
ep1433-are these not your words"it is only a small body of evangelicals that don't consider Mormons Christian"-laforte2007 - Please explain how I am following the crowd? well since its only a small group,then you must think your in the large group,hence my reply as follows you follow the crowd,seeing as how we few deluded are so misguided as to follow no man but JESUS the Christ,Matthew 7:13-14 ENTER ye in at the strait gate;for WIDE is the GATE and BROAD is the WAY,that leadeth to DESTRUCTION,and MANY there BE which GO IN THEREAT.14,BECAUSE STRAIT is the gate and NARROW is the WAY,which LEADETH UNTO LIFE AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT,be forwarned fowwlow mans docrtine or follow JESUS your Call also you stated the following",When I was a college Freshman I decided to abandon the life my "Christian" friends were leading (drinking, sex, etc.) and chose a life of abstinenece before marriage, avoiding alchohol, and leaving home for 2 years to teach others about Christ."what you were doing in collage with your friends"When I was a college Freshman I decided to abandon the life my "Christian" friends were leading (drinking, sex, etc.)" so you were doing the same as them,who are you trying to fool,you know as well as I do that type of doings isnt christian,nor can that be held up as the standard of christs behavior we should do,so dont say they or you were christian then,3rd all you did after that time was done because the mormon church said this you will do,you went out and taught others latter day saints doctrines mixed will a little bible thrown in,you didnt teach the Gosple acording to Jesus you taught the gosple acording to the mormon church.
There is no such thing as proof in the existential sense. I am talking about proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
And Bible investigation is just the opposite. Despite what you claim, when I apply the exact same criteria to the Bible, it comes through in flying colors.
I look forward to your email!
Yes finally a fact! Although incorrect at least we are getting somewhere. Let me start with the BoM. First, nearly every claim you make would equally disqualify the Bible and in fact ever atheist that debates the proof of the Bible does just that. Why was steel mentioned in the OT testament long before it was invented? Where are all the leviathans the Bible mentions? where are all the Biblical cities we have never found. Now, you would then progress to a debate about the specifics of my claim (steel = translation issue, cities have been found or whatever). But it would be essentially the same debate you would like to have about the BoM.
So what you area really offering is not at all the proof you claimed to have that the BoM is false. What you have found is some support for such an arguement (support which I would dispute). Fair enough. But hardly insurmountable. Frankly, in an existential sense there is very little in this world that can be proved. That's why we use a different word for our belief in religion; faith. We don't call ourselves the prooful.
So now we have framed the debate properly. Namely that proof is a pretty extreme word to use unless you are demonstrating the most basic of tenets (gravity, life, etc.). Now we can proceed to disect the arguements you have made.
But after dinner.
ept, I am happy to answer any questions you have for me. I look forward to receiving an email from you.
As to my claims....I will start with the Book of Abraham.
Joseph Smith claimed he interpreted papyri found with an Egyptian mummy. He claimed it was a story written by Abraham (by his own hand) about Abraham's time in Egypt. We have now found the papyri, and it is nothing of the sort. It is a common pagan funerary text for a dead guy named Horus. The details are more complex, but that is the gist. It was pure fraud on Joseph's part.
As to the Book of Mormon, the proof is multifaceted. The proof comes from DNA, archaeology, textual analysis, and anthropology. A few examples are that animals, metals and technologies described in the BoM did not exist in BoM times. None of the cities or cultures in the BoM existed. DNA shows that the peoples of the Americas had no Semitic DNA. The BoM incorporates textual errors from the King James Bible. Josepth Smith also clearly borrowed place names from the area near his home in Palmyra, New York.
All of these things and more are proof. And this discussion need not even touch onthe actions of Joseph Smith himself - which further disqualify him as a prophet.
So, there is your response. The proof is in the pudding, and I will be happy to give you as much good pudding as you can take! :-)
About the Space Aliens. frankly many such faiths do exist and many are Christian or pseudo Christian doomsday cults. But christian is still the appropriate label no matter how distasteful it may be.
Christian is not a term for YOU to offer as you see fit. It is not a copyright you hold. Christ does.
You said "Second, I DO KNOW (empahsis mine) that you have not honestly and openly investigated your faith" Seriously? How could you possibly know such a think. The fact is you can't. You are claiming powers of perception beyond your abilities. If you say otherwise, please produce the proof. Now! Proof would look something like this, "I was ep1433's roomate when he was studying the LDS faith and he never cracked a book". That would be proof. Otherwise it is just more of the same baseless declarations from FT. It makes me wonder if your own faith shares the same flimsy foundations?
You declared that the BoM had been proven, "literally proven" false. Once again a declaration without facts. If something was literally proven false the facts to support such a claim would be simple to state, especially in the ample forum provided here. Again let me demonstrate; "The sun does not revolve around the earth, the earth revolves around the sun. This is true because the orbits of celestial bodies have been observed from a protracted distance from earth. Measurements of gravitational effects have been calculated recorded and are available for review." Now remember that is simply an analogy. I'm not an astrophysicist. But you get the point.
I'm happy to email you but such obvious "proof" should be easy to state here as well. But I do have one rule about an email exchange. You also have to be willing to examine your faith. It's history, it's leadership, it's teachings, etc. This is only fair.
ep1433, I have a couple of thoughts.
First, imagine a religious group which claimed to worship Jesus Christ -- but believed Jesus was a space alien. Imagine they generally trusted the gospel accounts but believed they had other scriptures left by a spaceship. Imagine further that the "spaceship scriptures" were similar to the Bible but Jesus taught taught a few different things, such as Christians should smoke marijuana.
These people could say they were followers of Jesus Christ who wanted to follow his example and his teachings.
What if these people called themselves "The Chronic Universal Church of Jesus Christ"?
Would they be Christians? I mean heck, they have "Jesus Christ" right in their name. (Obviously, they would not be Christians.) For the same reason, you should not call yourself Christian. Heck, you should be happy and proud to not be associated with same since you consider your church to be the one true church!
Second, and importantly, I do know that you have not honestly and openly investigated your faith. If you had, you would not be part of it. I challenge you to challenge yourself. However you might posture on this comment string, you know deep inside you have not really scrubbed your faith.
I have investigated both Mormonism and Christianity, and there were very different results. I have read the BoA and the entire BoM. I have read a lot of the D&C. I have visited an LDS service.
I challenge you. I challenge you to examine your faith head on. Truth is out there, but it is not found in Joseph Smith's church - despite all the good people who are part of it.
Start with the Book of Abraham. You can even email me at ftaggie AT yahoo dot c o m, and I will be happy to discuss the Book of Abraham with you. We can examine it in detail. This would take courage on your part, but the result is worthwhile!
FT and laforte2007 - The comments you offered (investigate your faith, it's a fraud, etc.) are precisely the criticisms that other faiths give to Christians of all denominations. If every Christian reacted when someone challenges their faith there would be no Christians. Certainly the apostles experienced that.
THe Book of Momron and the BoA "literally proven to be false"? Come on FT. Get real. First, your statement implies that it is even possible to "literally prove" such a thing, which it is not. So I'm calling your bluff. Second.
I have investigated my faith. I was in college when I first learned about my faith (12 years ago). Since then I have read about it, debated about it, served a mission, been to the Temple, and served in the church. Let's take a survey and ask who the more likely uninformed person is here. It's not likely to be me.
laforte2007 - Please explain how I am following the crowd? When I was a college Freshman I decided to abandon the life my "Christian" friends were leading (drinking, sex, etc.) and chose a life of abstinenece before marriage, avoiding alchohol, and leaving home for 2 years to teach others about Christ.
FT - You can talk till you turn blue ("whatever you call yourself, you are not a follower of truth." ) but it doesn't change the fact that most sensible people will see me as a Christian because A.) I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior meaning he is the way to salvation, B.) I seek to do my best to emulate him, C.) I try to share this faith with others. That such a declaraion doesn't fit YOUR definition of a Christian says a great deal about YOUR views of Christianity. It seems to you, that a Christian is someone who sees things the way you see them. I always figured it had more to do with seeing things the way Christ sees them.
ep1433-you follow the crowd,seeing as how we few deluded are so misguided as to follow no man but JESUS the Christ,Matthew 7:13-14 ENTER ye in at the strait gate;for WIDE is the GATE and BROAD is the WAY,that leadeth to DESTRUCTION,and MANY there BE which GO IN THEREAT.14,BECAUSE STRAIT is the gate and NARROW is the WAY,which LEADETH UNTO LIFE AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT,be forwarned fowwlow mans docrtine or follow JESUS your Call
ep1433, whatever you call yourself, you are not a follower of truth.
I love you guys, but the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham have been PROVEN - literally proven - to be false. I would challenge you to honestly investigate your faith. I know you haven't, or you would no longer be a Mormon. Start with the Book of Abraham. Read things not published by the church. I can't stand to see you guys held thrall by a fraud.
I'm not offednded by the comments of Mohler. There isn't really any point. I don't worry about any other judgements than that of Jesus Christ himself. His is the judgement that counts. And if it turns out that a large body of people that gather in his name and call on others to follow his teachings and strive to live as he lived are somehow following a faith " that....leads to eternal death rather than to eternal life" (Mohler's words) than I never understood salvation or faith in the first place. If salvation is a matter of "oops, you chose the church that looked just like Christs church, but unfortunately that wasn't the right one" than I have no understanding of God.
I'm greatful that it is only a small body of evangelicals that don't consider Mormons Christian. The feelings of the majority of kind Christians will outlast the petty efforts of a few.
But to say Mormons are "non-traditioanal" Christians is silly (sorry Card). How about Evangelicals be called christians with a lowercase "c"? That's pretty much how they are acting.
I'll proclaim myself a Christian without reservation and without compromise to all I know as long as I live. That's what a Christian does. And only Christ himself can confirm or deny that title of Honor.
Online4Him-well said, would have taken me a long time to sumup all that-however,you may be confusing them with facts,and some how that cant be good,----im sure that they will think long and hard---- to find further reason to refute whats fairly self evident,If they would suspend disbeilef for a day perhaps daylight will dawn,
non belevers said the same things over and over through out history Iisrael never will become a nation,yet it did despite the unbeilef, they said babylon never exsisted,untill it was unearthed,the same was said about sodom,it was said there was no jesus yet historians of those biblical times refere to the same people and places found in the bible,there were those who said isaiah was a made up book,untill it was found in the dead sea scrolls,if you dont beleve history and dont belive whats found in suport then short of God himself nothing will satisfy those who refuse to beleve,the people in Jesus day didnt beleve him often times and he was the son of God.so why should we who are less exspect anything more
The Old Testament predictions of the Messiah to come were so specific and so clearly fulfilled by Jesus of Nazareth that both Jesus and Apollos used these prophecies to prove to the Jews that Jesus was, indeed, the Messiah. There are more than 125 of these prophecies. Let's review just 12 of them:
Prophecy Old Testament Scripture New Testament Fulfillment
1. Born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1
2. Born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-23
3. Of David's lineage Jeremiah 23:5 Revelation 22:16
4. Attempted murder by Herod Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18
5. Betrayal by a friend Psalms 41:9 John 13:18, 19, 26
6. Sold for 30 silver coins Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 26:14-16
7. Crucified Zechariah 12:10 John 19:16-18, 37
8. Lots cast for His clothes Psalms 22:18 Matthew 27:35
9. No bones broken Psalms 34:20; Exodus 12:46 John 19:31-36
10. Buried in rich man's tomb Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
11. Year, day, hour of His death Daniel 9:26, 27; Exodus 12:6 Matthew 27:45-50
12. Raised the third day Hosea 6:2 Acts 10:38-40
Dr. Peter Stoner, former chairman of the departments of mathematics, astronomy, and engineering at Pasadena College (California), worked with 600 students for several years applying the "principle of probability" to the prophecies of the Messiah's coming. They chose just eight from the many available and finally decided the chances of all eight being fulfilled in one man in a lifetime is one in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. What would the odds be on the more than 125 prophecies of the Messiah? It couldn't just happen!
First, let me say that the bible is for believers not unbelievers: it is the source of faith for Christians. So from a Christian perspective it matters not whether the rest of the world believes the scriptures. There is no basic argument that will convince you that God exists or that his word is true. One must be willing to do an internal and external examination of the evidence available. Here is where one might begin:
Manuscripts: Since we don’t have the original biblical manuscripts, the question is, “How good are the copies?” The answer is that the Bible has stronger manuscript support than any other work of classical literature – including Homer, Plato, Aristotle, or Caesar.
Archaeology: With virtually every turn of the archaeologist’s spade, we see evidence for the trustworthiness of Scripture. It is indeed telling when secular scholars must revise their biblical criticisms in light of new archaeological discoveries.
Prophecy: Predictive prophecy is a principle of Bible reliability that often reaches even the hard-boiled skeptic! Scripture records hundreds of prophecies that could not be known or predicted by chance or common sense.
Statistics: The Bible was written over a space of 1600 years, by 40 authors, in three languages, on hundreds of subjects, and yet there is one consistent, non-contradictory theme that runs through it all: God’s redemption of humankind. Statistical probability is a powerful proof that Scripture is divine rather than human in origin.
Online4him - What is your evidential support? The bible is only evidence that the characters may have existed but is not proof that the stories are true. Besides the bible and your belief, what is your proof that jesus was born from a virgin or that there is even a god.
At my anti-darwinism blog site === > > http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com/#the_message_that_we_were_born_to_hear there is a free gospel tract pdf file on the side panel on the top right-hand side that you can download for your personal evangelism. The tract debunks mormonism, the jehovah witness cult false teachings, and preaches the real gospel of Christ. Genuine christianity is NOT man made, because it not a religion; it is a kingdom. The only gospel that the disciples, Paul, and Jesus Himself preached was the gospel of the kingdom. What are we preaching today? America has it hard because it learned to distrust kingdoms at its infancy. Therefore many americans approach to Holy God has been based more on rebellion and seeking their own desire and not God's desire. If we are ever going to approach God and know Him we must must to Him as to a King! You will hear more about this on the site as well. I encourage every person to get Myles Monroes three books "Rediscovering the kingdom, Principles of the Kingdom, and the most important person on Earth". The only message that will bring Jesus back is the Gospel of the Kingdom.
It doesn't really take blogs and discussions and years to come to the conclusion that a non-biblical religion is non-biblical.
Making a broad statement without evidentual support is nothing more then suppositions and personal beliefs.
lds are like the cathholics and others who hold to there traditional teaching rather than seeing the original scriptures as the sole reference for there sourse of Gods instructions to mankind,often due to misinterpritation of hebrew and greek scriptures,or trying to fit there ideas of God into scriptures-rather than fiting scriptures into there minds,and if that doesnt get it done someone will add adendems to scriptures,or just make there own up,or its justification in the cense of- because this is what the church teaches,as if a church is the lone & sole and final atthority with a hotline directly to God and since they enjoy such a position they can do no wrong nor say anything wrong because God can do no wrong
Well said, laforte. Also, lets not forget that the bible said the earth was circular in shape long before science. "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,..." isaiah 40:22
Does it matter? Both religions are man made.jcisfiction-do you have some proof we are unaware of or is this statement a personal belife,the books of the bible go back roughly 5000 years,the places names, dates,spoken there in have been unearthed.showing they did exsist,historians have confirmed them,archeology has evidence suporting the events having happened,at one time scientists stated the earth was flat they also stated man didnt walk with dinosaures,they also stated there never was sodom ,science when used for good is very helpfull when its use for other agendas it tends to misstate evedence and say there is no God,therefor its all a lie,
Does it matter? Both religions are man made.
It is always interesting to me how many will quote or refer back to their churches teachings rather than the Word of God. My friends, anyone who cannot demonstrate from scripture alone the basis for their teachings should be consciously aware that something is amiss.
An interesting prophecy spoken by Joseph Smith in the name of the Lord in the Doctrine & Covenants (one of the Scriptures of the LDS Church)
"Verily THUS SAITH THE LORD; It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world" D&C 114:1
This is dated April 17, 1838 spoken by Joseph Smith the founding Prophet of the LDS Church.
So what happened? He died in October of 1838 (Church Chronology pg 15) before he could go on the mission in the following spring. Did God not know that David Patten would die? If God didn't know that wouldn't be God. Did David fail in some way? No, Joseph Smith said he died and lived - a man of God (History of the Church Vol 3 pg 171)
So what happened?
"And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deut 18:21-22
We should not be concerned about what Joseph Smith said, because if even one thing he spoke in the name of the Lord did not come to pass, we have no reason to trust the 100+ other things he spoke in the name of the Lord or claimed the Lord showed him.
So if your a Mormon you may be saying.... "So what, maybe God changed his mind?"
Mormon Scriptures tell me God won't let his word return void and that he will fulfill what he speaks.
"For as I, the Lord God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth THEY MUST BE FULFILLED" Book of Moses 4:30 (Out of the Pearl of Great Price)
I can now come to only one conclusion about Joseph Smith.....
one of the Mormon founders of the LDS church upon hid death bed recanted and said the Mormon church was a lie,not something the LDS church wants known,the original manuscripts that serve as the bases for the new and old testament are still around as they were since they were written,Does God change his mind as a man does,I dont care how many scriptures one lifts from the bible and plagerises them,they have taken the words of the bible and suger coated them to fit into there own doctrines that that are man inspired.Mormons are Mormons, they cant be christian, only christians are christ- like,
I highly recommend that any thoughtful Latter Day Saint carefully examine this web site:
http://www.bookofabraham.info/
The founder of the Church, Joseph Smith, said:
"While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the Universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; he views them as his offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men."
The Restored Church
Mormons claim to be Christian, but in a very special sense.
They believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the church that restores Christianity to the form it had in the time of the Apostles.
They further believe that the divine authority to direct the Christian church has been restored into their church.
The Time of Christ
In the last three years of his life, Mormons believe, Christ established his church and commissioned twelve apostles. He gave them the authority to act in his name and run the church.
Soon after Christ's death, the apostles themselves were killed, and the direct earthly line of authority from God ended.
Church without Authority
Because authority had been lost, Christianity began to drift away from the original church set up by Christ.
Men with good intentions but without authority began to lead the church, and to alter the original beliefs and practices of Christ's church.
As time went on theologians added new beliefs and doctrines onto Christianity, and took others away.
The Christian Church split into Eastern and Western branches, and later into Catholic and Protestant.
The Reformation instigated by Calvin and Luther was an attempt to return Christianity to the teachings of Christ, but it too was a deviation from the original church, and it lacked divine authority.
Restoration
In 1820, God the Father and Jesus Christ came to Joseph Smith in a vision and instructed him to restore Christ's Church.
Over the next few years Joseph Smith received several divine revelations, including the text of the Book of Mormon. Later he was given divine authority.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has faithfully followed the revelations that provide the teaching needed to restore Christ's Church, and the divine authority given to Joseph Smith has been passed down through the priesthood of the Church.
Today
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is organised in the same way as it was in ancient times. It continues the tradition of continuing revelation with modern-day prophets and scripture. It sends missionaries in pairs to proclaim the gospel. And it continues to have a lay ministry (not a professional priesthood), and the same priesthood offices.
Are Mormons Christians?
"Are we Christians? Of course we are! No one can honestly deny that."
"We may be somewhat different from the traditional pattern of Christianity. But no one believes more literally in the redemption wrought by the Lord Jesus Christ."
"No one believes more fundamentally that He was the Son of God, that He died for the sins of mankind, that He rose from the grave, and that He is the living resurrected Son of the living Father." President Gordon B. Hinckley
In recent years the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has moved to emphasise that is distinctively Christian.
In 2001 the church decided that in writings it should be called first by its full name - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - and then in later references called the Church of Jesus Christ.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is certainly Christian to the extent that Christ is at the centre of its beliefs. Individual Mormons try to live their lives following the teaching and example of Christ.
The Mormon View
Mormons believe that conventional Christian churches have lost the authority of God. They believe that conventional Christian beliefs are a mixture of the truth and of errors that have been added over the centuries.
Mormons believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and rose on the third day. They believe that there would be no salvation without his atonement. They believe Christ will return to earth to reign and rule.
The Conventional Christian View
Traditional Christian belief is contained in the creed as interpreted by the various denominations over the centuries.
The teaching of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints differs from the creed in so many places that many traditional Christians say that Mormons are not Christians.
Attitudes of Other Christians
In recent years both the Vatican and the policy-making body of the United Methodist Church have decided that Mormons must be rebaptised when converting to Catholicism or Methodism.
This shows that the Roman Catholic Church regards Mormonism as varying in its essential beliefs from traditional Christianity. It does allow members of most Protestant and Orthodox churches to convert to Catholicism without being rebaptised.
However Mormons require that everyone be baptised when they join their Church, no matter what background they come from.
One difference in the two concepts of baptism is that the Roman Catholic church states that baptism remits original sin as well as personal sin, and that as Mormons do not accept the idea of original sin their idea of baptism is different. Mormons believe people are baptised for the remission of their own sins.
It's obvious that some people care very little about truth.
This is the dark side of Politics and Religion. And we get sucked right in.
To carlsonlaw:
To state that it is prideful for one to share the truth of scripture is not addressing the subject at hand. An honest appraisal of Mormonism would reveal the many contradictions scattered throughout its material. Was it pride when Jesus told the Sadducees that they “erred and knew not the power of God” (Matt. 22:29)? Was Paul being proud when he told the men in Athens they needed to repent (Acts 17:22, 30)? Or when he reprimanded the Galatians for accepting another gospel (Gal. 1:6-9)?
Paul commended the believers in Berea for researching the scriptures to confirm whether his own messages were in harmony with it (Acts 17:10, 11). 1John 4:1 says, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” This is the duty of every true believer as Jude tells us in Jude verse 3. Similar passages will confirm the same thing over and over again: 2Tim. 4:1-4, 2Cor. 11:4, Col. 2:8, 2Pet. 2:1-22.
Earlier you shared your testimony of faith; praise God if this is true, however, does it not bother you that the LDS Church teaches many contradictory doctrines? This is not a personal attack on you but rather a legitimate concern for souls being misled to trust anything other than Jesus Christ. It matters not what church we attend or what denomination we are a part of; this same principle applies to us all! We have no need of other additional books and leaders who supersede the holy bible.
"I believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of our Father in Heaven"
Pardon me, but as a Mormon, don't you believe that Jesus is just God's FIRSTborn son - a created being - and that Satan is Jesus' younger brother?
Don't you believe that Jesus was once a "spirit child" who came to earth and progressed unto godhood? Don't you believe that you as well can one day progress to the point that you also become a god?
An interesting prophecy spoken by Joseph Smith in the name of the Lord in the Doctrine & Covenants (one of the Scriptures of the LDS Church)
"Verily THUS SAITH THE LORD; It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world" D&C 114:1
This is dated April 17, 1838 spoken by Joseph Smith the founding Prophet of the LDS Church.
So what happened? He died in October of 1838 (Church Chronology pg 15) before he could go on the mission in the following spring. Did God not know that David Patten would die? If God didn't know that wouldn't be God. Did David fail in some way? No, Joseph Smith said he died and lived - a man of God (History of the Church Vol 3 pg 171)
So what happened?
"And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deut 18:21-22
We should not be concerned about what Joseph Smith said, because if even one thing he spoke in the name of the Lord did not come to pass, we have no reason to trust the 100+ other things he spoke in the name of the Lord or claimed the Lord showed him.
So if your a Mormon you may be saying.... "So what, maybe God changed his mind?"
Did he? Mormon Scriptures tell me God won't let his word return void and that he will fulfill what he speaks.
"For as I, the Lord God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth THEY MUST BE FULFILLED" Book of Moses 4:30 (Out of the Pearl of Great Price)
I dont know if its the magic underware or that they believe that they will reside on their own planet (celestial body) in the after life. but paul said that if even paul himself taught another gospel than the one he first preached,it is a false gospel and it is to be seen for what it is.Its a sad fact that hell is going to be full of nice moral UNSAVED people.There is only one gospel,one Jesus,and the only way to salvation is through him.
I believe in Jesus Christ. The same Jesus Christ as found in the King James versionof the New Testament. I believe that I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and that the only way man may be spiritually saved is by Him, of Him and through Him. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of our Father in Heaven. I further believe that He sent the Holy Ghost as a Comforter and to inspire us to do good. I believe in doing good and praising God. I believe the Holy Bible is the word of God, and that by reading it we become better people. I believe that by doing our best to follow Christ -- today and everday -- we are demonstrating to the world that we are disciples of Jesus Christ and that Christianity brings happiness and salvation. I believe in recognizing the good in others and try to avoid name calling (that is nothing more than sinful pride).
I am AN UNQUALIFIED CHRISTIAN. And I am also Mormon.
Is the Gospel of Mormonism the Gospel of the Bible? You be the judge!
Was Jesus conceived by the Holy Ghost? Biblical response: Matt.1:18-21, Lk. 1:35.
Mormon response: Brigham Young, the second president of the Mormon Church, once stated:
"Now remember from this time forth and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51). Josoph Fielding Smith, President of the Twelve Apostles, has denied that the Book of Mormon and the Bible teach that Christ was begotten by the Holy Ghost. He stated as follows:
"They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The book of Mormon teaches no such thing! neither does the Bible." (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1. p. 19)
There are many more Mormon quotations that can be shared. From their own material they have demonstrated to teach unbiblical doctrines, they would give more unbiblical answers to these questions as well: Was Jesus born of a Virgin? Where is the source of Salvation? Are there sins too great for the blood of Christ to atone? How can such sins be forgiven?
I will love them as the bible tell says and be the best christian I can, and I will let God sort all this on the day of Judgement.
God bless each and everyone. Now go spread the Lord word and stop talking about your fellow man, that is not part of what Christ teaches.
The question of whether or not Mormons are Christians is dependent upon the definition a Christian. Therefore, it seems that most of us are talking past one another when we discuss this topic.
According to the following definition, Mormons are Christian:
A Christian is one who professes a belief in, relies upon for salvation, and seeks to emulate Jesus Christ of the New Testament.
Those who would refute this definition as being inclusive of Mormons are left to explain themselves. They usually do this by claiming that Mormons do not actually believe in the same Jesus as Protestants or Catholics do. In this statement they are partly correct. The definition of God and Jesus to which most Protestants and Catholics subscribe was formulated by a warring group of church leaders at a council called together by the emperor Constantine in the city of Nicaea a few hundred years after Christ's resurrection. This group was comprised of leaders who hailed from lands all around the Mediterranean and beyond. Their views of God and Jesus were influenced by the local traditions of the people amongst whom they lived. Many of these localities were steeped in the religious traditions of the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans - all of whom believed in a polytheology of gods who were variously mystical as well as human-like. With the help of the Great Deceiver, Satan, and his evil minions, these traditions crept into the orthodox teaching of God and Jesus being separate in person and material, yet one in purpose. So, when these religious leaders came together, they did so with over 300 years of doctrinal baggage weighing on their on their understanding of nature of God. It isn't surprising, therefore, that the voice that ruled the day was the one professing Jesus to be uncarnate - despite the beautiful recitations of His resurrection in all four of the Gospels - , and of having “one Being with the Father" (Nicene Creed), despite the numerous accounts given in the New Testament which clarify what Christ meant when he stated that "I and my father are one". (see St. Luke 3:21-22, St. Matthew 17:1-5) Mormons do not believe in the declaration of Nicaea but instead believe in God our Eternal Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost as separate individuals, wholly one in purpose and all perfected. So, in that sense it can be said that we believe Jesus' physical attributes are different than those of traditional Christianity. Does that mean we believe in a "different" Jesus?
To me, it seems the far more important question which should be raised is: "Is the Mormon's understanding of the nature of God correct?" To the honest seeker of the answer to that question the Holy Spirit will testify YES!
Acheantus - Don't be offednded by the comments of Mohler. There isn't really any point. I don't worry about any other judgements than that of Jesus Christ himself. His is the judgement that counts. And if it turns out that a large body of people that gather in his name and call on others to follow his teachings and strive to live as he lived are somehow follwing a faith " that....leads to eternal death rather than to eternal life" than I never understood salvation or faith in the firstplace. If salvation is a matter of "oops, you chose the church that looked exactly like Christs church, but unfortunately that wasn't the right one" than I have no understanding of God.
Also, I'm greatful that it is onlya small body of evangelicals that don't consider Mormons Christian. The feelings of the majority of kind Christians will outlast the petty efforts of a few.
But to say Mormons are "non-traditioanal" Christians is silly (sorry Card). How about Evangelicals be called christians with a lowercase "c"? That's pretty much how they are acting.
I'll proclaim myself a Christian without reservation and without compromise to all I know as long as I live. That's what a Christian does. And only Christ himself can confirm or deny that title of Honor.
Briefly:
1) The orthodox of any religion get to define who is and who is not part of their religion. The LDS church refuses to acknowledge the existence of fundamentalist Mormons. Gordon B. Hinckley has even said there is "no such thing." And yet, the FLDS church reveres Joseph Smith and the same scriptures as the LDS church. I think president Hinckley is justified in his position. Similarly, Mr. Mohler is justified when he says Mormons are not Christians. They are not. (There are more differences between LDS and protestants than there are between LDS and FLDS!)
2) I could not vote for Romney, not for religious reasons, but for his lack of judgment.
Mormons do not, and have no desire to be considered as *traditional* or orthodox Christians. So what? I can only assume that evangelical Christians have no desire to be called Catholics. Yet both Catholics and Evangelicals are considered Christians, despite many differences in doctrine, ordinances, and belief. Likewise, Mormons have differences in doctrine, ordinances, and belief, but they are still very much Christians. And that my friends, is the bottom line, regardless of what any "specialist" may say. :)
Also, while I applaud Dr. Mohler's stance that religion should not be a consideration in elections for political office, I find his statement below offensive and provocative:
“To the contrary, I believe that it is a false gospel that, however sincere and kind its adherents may be, leads to eternal death rather than to eternal life,”
I agree with pgcfriend that judging the salvation of others is getting onto dangerous ground. Setting oneself up as a judge to determine the salvation of others is a right reserved for Jesus Christ, and anyone assuming that right risks the judgement of Christ when He declared to the scribes and pharisees of his day "ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." I am sure that the Lord wants anyone that desires to follow Him to build on the common ground, and not promote persecution, bigotry, or contention.
I am a Mormon, and very proud of it. I absolutely love my religion and I love Jesus Christ. I struggle hard every day to develop and strengthen my relationship with Him. Though I often fall short, I know that He has been patient with me, and has blessed my life in countless ways, both physically, temporally, and spiritually. I know that He is my Savior, and the only way to salvation. I honor Him, reverence Him, and worship Him. I am not unique among Mormons, but more rather among the weak of my religion. And yet, I know Jesus Christ, and I know that He knows me. If that is not Christian than I do not know what is. I applaud anyone who actively seeks to give Christ a place in their life and in their heart, regardless of their religion or sect. Whatever religion you may happen to follow, I respect you for doing your best. Mormons request that same respect for doing the best they can to follow Christ, even if the way they do so differs from yours, and to be recognized that they are Christians for believing and trying to follow Christ the best they can.
I have a free gospel tract pdf file that exposes the false teachings of the mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses while simultaniously preaches the real gospel which you can download off from my anti-darwinism blog site on the right-hand side ====> http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com/
I just want everyone to be blessed. We are in the last days and the real christians must work together to advance the Kingdom of God in Jesus' name.
I think Mormons wanting to be called Christians is like Protestant Christians wanting to be called Catholics. There's a reason for the distinction.
Here’s the bottom line on the debate. Mohler claims Mormons are not Christian because Mormons don’t adhere to “traditional Christian orthodoxy.” Card says, you are right that Mormons don’t adhere to this orthodoxy, but Mormons believe in Christ none-the-less, and in the salvation that His atonement provides. He also says, let’s find our common ground. Now, I ask you, in which language do you feel the spirit of the Lord? Stop listening to all the people arguing one point or the other. Open your mind, open your heart, and listen to which really speaks of the spirit. That’s the bottom line.
the founders of the LDS church,sad,they departed from the real gospel of christ to found a church on mis-information and outright lies,Christ did it all upon the cross in jerusalem once and for all,--you can not add to without takeing away from what was done.all the aditional books in the world,have no place next to the inspired word the original bible,not the book of mormon not the pearl of great price,or mackanations of LDS prophets or saints.canadd anthing worthwhile to what is found in a bible.
I find it fascinating that Mormons are so eager to be declared another "sect" of Christianity when their own teachings point to Christian sectarianism as the evidence of its falseness as a church of Christ today.
Also, President Hinckley himself boldly stated in his book, "Who Are The Mormons", that Mormonism has nothing in common with evangelical or protestant Christianty. The truth of the matter is the Mormon Church teaches its people that they are the only true Christians, a claim that is quite exclusive. Since they cannot be taken seriously as Christians, they hope to at least be considered a part of, and one with, the historical orthodox Christian Church. Their goal (for now) is to be sectarian.
Are you serious? Have you studied Mormonism and where it came from? Do you know what they believe happens when you die? There is also so much secrecy in Mormonism...Jesus was never secret about anything. Do you know why Christians left the Catholic Church? I wish those who called themselves Christians would stand FIRM on the Word of God and not their own thought processes or things that they've heard. Mormons are NOT Christians and it's also a very silly thing to think about calling them "untraditional christians". You are either a full follower of Christ or you aren't. There's no luke warm...ummmm...I think Jesus said something about being luke warm...interesting.
I think this is an interesting debate and I can see both sides. If Christianity is simply defined by the existing protestant religions, then of course they will try to exclude Mormons and find some reason for doing so. On the other hand, if the word Christian is defined by the Bible, I think you will find that Mormons are Christians. Actually perhaps, Mormons may have more reason to argue that they are Christians and the protestant community is not, since they "believe" (whether or not it is true) that their faith was actually founded by Jesus Christ himself, and not just men who disagreed with Catholic teachings. To my knowledge, Catholics and Mormons are the only two major Christian denominations that even claim to originate "as a religion" directly passed down from the master himself, and not merely a philosophy or interpretation.
I appreciate the thoughts of Card in this article, that back when protestants broke off from Catholicism, they were the ones persecuted as heretics for not being a part of the "true" doctrine. Now Protestants are trying to do the same thing to Mormons, rather than embracing them in the points of doctrine that can be agreed upon - that Jesus is the Christ and Savior of the World, that only through Christ can mankind be saved, that we are all children of God, that the Bible is the word of God.
The Mormon faith is not Christian from what I have read about it over the years. However to make an assumption of whether a person in that religion is saved or not is something I do not feel comfortable doing. If a person has done what is stated in the word of God they are saved.
I have known and heard of people that had accepted Christ like the Bible states but because of not knowing the word of God ended up in a cult for a time. They were led in what the Bible states a person should do to be saved. In every case the Lord led people across their paths and saw the light. All of them are in churches that only use the Holy Bible to teach about the Christian faith.
I'm glad that Dr. Mohler is strong in his stance against eliminating the consideration of people for political office because of not agreeing with their theology.