The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America delayed further talks on whether to ordain non-celibate homosexual clergy after two days of emotional debate.
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(Photo: ELCA News Service)Voting ECLA members in discussion during Bible study led by the Rev. David L. Tiede, a professor at Augsburg College in Minneapolis and a member of the ELCA Task Force for Studies on Sexuality.
While supporters of gay and lesbian clergy in committed relationships are calling for a decision now during ELCA's Churchwide Assembly, particularly to lift the current ban that's in place, opponents say a sudden decision could be risky.
"Throughout 18 years, this church has chosen not to make decisions on separate and particular elements of sexuality," said Bishop Gregory Pile of the Allegheny Synod, according to The Chicago Tribune. "It has continued to call for a broad and thorough conversation leading up to a proposed statement in 2009."
With discussion on gay ordination scheduled to continue on Friday, voting members of the nation's largest Lutheran denomination decided on Thursday to refer memorials on the blessing of same-sex unions to the Task Force for ELCA Studies on Sexuality. The church task force is charged with drafting a social statement about human sexuality by 2009.
"I don't believe that a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ at this Assembly will be helpful to us when so many in our church are expecting a social statement of some sort in 2009," said the Rev. Leonard H. Bolick, bishop of the North Carolina Synod, according to the ELCA News Service. "That social statement, it seems to me, would be very helpful in guiding conversation, in explaining what we have done, a spring board for our deliberations."
After voting in 2005 to maintain its ban against non-celibate gay and lesbian clergy, the issue was not expected to be debated again until the social statement was concocted in 2009. The statement is to be based on a comprehensive study that collected responses from congregants across the denomination since 2001.
A third of the ELCA's regional governing bodies, or synods, have pushed for a proposal this year that would permit gay and lesbian clergy in committed relationships to serve congregations. But conservatives argue that a decision preceding the social statement would be premature.
Earlier at the biennial churchwide assembly, which is being held in Chicago, more than 80 lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered Lutheran ministers "came out," declaring their sexuality on Tuesday. Most of the pastors, some of whom were removed from the roster, have been open with their congregations about their sexuality.
"The courage of these 82 ministers is amazing," said Emily Eastwood, executive director of Lutherans Concerned in North America, a ministry that works for the full inclusion of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Lutherans in all aspects of the life of their Church and congregations. "They are all well aware of the risks they take in introducing themselves and their families to the wider church. For those who are rostered leaders in the ELCA, they risk discipline from their bishops, discipline which may include formal ecclesiastical charges, a trial and ultimate removal."
The Rev. Bradley Schmeling, an Atlanta pastor who was removed from the church roster last month after announcing that he found a lifelong partner, was among the 82 protesting the current ELCA policy that requires LGBT ministers to remain celibate.
On Thursday, Schmeling and hundreds of other gay-rights advocates held a separate service at a nearby hotel in hopes of a decision that night that would lift the ban. The stalled debate disappointed the gay-rights crowd, according to The Chicago Tribune.
A motion Thursday to continue debate on the homosexuality issue for the rest of the night and postpone items on the agenda that were scheduled was not approved by a two-thirds majority and discussion was discontinued until Friday.
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Just a few verses to back up our Christian beliefs. Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:29 say that homosexuality is wrong. 2 Timothy 4:2-5,Matt7:15,13:22,24:11,24:24,Mark 13:22,Luke 6:26, 1John 4:1 all talk about false profits and false teachers. And 1 Cor 9:14 says that if you are a preacher you should preach the word and live by the word of God. So somewhere here you must admit that homosexuals should not be in the clergy at all! But they and we all do need to be in church other wise how are they going to come to know the truth?
Let the truth go forth..."homosexuality is a sin."
This is simple. Why is there any discussion?!?! Leviticus tells the requirements for the clergy. God has said in the Bible that Homosexuality is an abomination, so is Muderers, liars, and a litony of others. To put a homosexual in the office of Clergy is a blatant heresy, a slap in the Face of God. Furthermore, God calls us to repent and turn from our evil way. Jesus tells throught his ministry to Go, and sin no more. If you are a murderer, you are to turn from murderer, a rapist, turns from it, a thief, turn from it. etc. So, The person is not a practicing Christian if they keep to the sin. Satan is as smooth talking and charasmatic as they come, he can mak things sound like it's God's word and will, but does it make it right? Should we allow him to be clergy?!? In light of howupset everyone is at the Catholics for pediphiles, Should we allow them in office of clergy? how about bestiality?!? How about rapists who want to counsel women for female issues? God's word says What is allowed and what is not. Either you turn from your old sinful nature as Jesus and the Apostles tell, or you leave. Cut and Dry.
We are to welcome all to our church, but the leaders of the flock are to be held to higher standards than the rest of us. If the church continues on this line and considers this move to ordain homosexuals as ministers or leaders in our church we will be forced to find another church that adheres to the scriptures. We are to love homosexuals as people but not love and accept their sins. This is a sorry discussion for the church to be having.
the Word also tells us that we are to refrain from the appearance of doing anything wrong... like in leading an upright and blameless (not just innocent)..... oh?! we are not supposeto judge? hmmm, that is not what the Bible says..... one place it says by what measure we judge, we shall also be judged...... news flash, the Word of God has already judged us all.... if we are of Christ, we are a NEW CREATURE, meaning we no longer are of the old ways..... this means we have repented (like in not ever doing them again) of our sins...... this does not mean we may not slip, but we do have a witness.... our lives... we all have fallen short of the Glory of God..... let us ask forgiveness and REPENT..... look at what the Lord Gave us.... we have the signs for all this that is happening in this world these days.... we do not have time to be playing games, My My, READ THE WORD, WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT GUIDING YOU AND YOU WILL SEE THAT WE ARE FACING A GRAVE TIME...... those that do not have a personal, one on one, love /love relationship with the Lord will be left in the dark (separated from the Lord) for all eternity....
have you ever been in a raging fire inside a building????? it is dark, really dark... you can not see anything at all..... not a bit like they show on TV or the movies....
just because a person goes to church every day does not make them a follower of Christ.... no more then being in a garage makes a person a ford, chevy, or dodge, or for that matter a fiat...
As the Lord has said, IF YOU LOVE ME...... YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS (NOT MAYBE, NOT SOME OF THEM....... ALL OF THEM.....)
REPENT...
The ELCA, like much of the old line churches, is desperate to regain membership and it's glory days. (I was raised in the Lutheran church during it's glory days) They are like the kid who was popular in High School but now finds no one really cares or even remembers them. They have latched on to the homosexual issue because they believe by doing so they will make the ELCA relevant to the cultural again and regain their lost popularity. They do not realize that all it does is continue it's slide in to cultural irrelevance. The vast majority of members of Lutheran churches stay home on Sunday morning. If you cannot be "relevant" to your own members, it is unlikely others will find you relevant. It is warning to all of us what happens when you seek to please man rather than God. That seems to be a problem in many churches in the US where being "popular" has replaced being faithful.
DEBATE on what?- weather a homsexual be made the leader in church or not? Dont they " read and carry " their Bibles while framing any rules and regulations of church?. The church which is called to be light and salt of the earth is groping for answers in the dark.
Yes, the debate will prolong to another century because " they " have closed the Bible which was their only light in the darkness.
I'll pray for my protestant brothers and sisters... definitely a disturbing situation. The Lutheran church doctrine continues to move farther away from Rome :(. Like all Christian churches the Catholic Church has had problems but to make it church doctrine, all I can say is this is a sad situation.
So why doesn't the doctrine of Sola Scriptura apply here? Luther was a founding father of this doctrine. Scripture condemns the practice of homosexuality in both the Old and New Testaments.
Hmmmn God calls it an abomination...whats to debate? except if this denomenation should close
There should be no room for gays in the church or military. Those antiquated orgs don't deserve them.
Was Jesus gay? He only surrounded himself with men, the only woman to touch him was allowed to wash his feet only. He asked the apostels to leave their family and wives.
Why is there even a debate about this?? Talk about a royal waste of time!! Does anyone ever read the Holy Scriptures anymore, and what about "thus saith the Lord?"
It's real simple. Homosexuality is a sin, first and foremost. No one in a homosexual lifestyle has any authority to lead the flock of God. What's next, pedophiles?
C'mon, Christians. Wake up!!! And for your homosexuals..remember the words of Jesus. "Go and sin no more!!"
Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!!! Let the debate end with all of us on our knees confessing our egregious sins to God Almighty and asking for forgiveness and mercy!!
Ummmmmm, Lefty. If the sin associated with the riot outside of Lot's door had only to do with rape, why did Lot instead offer his DAUGHTERS instead of the male angels to the rioting homosexuals? If you really want to get down to it, it sounds to me that reading Gen. 19 as written (without the tortured revision attempt) that homosexual acts are worse than rape, or at the LEAST, homosexual rape is worse than man-woman rape. Either way, homosexual acts, consensual or not, are obviously judged by a different standard and carry greater shame.
Lefty, don't get all Isaiah 5:20 on us. Don't be wilfully blind to what you know to be the Truth. This is spoken in love that you don't continue down the path of the Deceiver.
Rr2002, Scar1fyce and Ammon86, Dulos you are exactly right in your quotes! Praise to you! I also agree with the ‘original creation’. It was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Roger nor Eve and Ruth. Dulos, thanks for the kind words. I agree with you totally. I do pray their eyes will be open and we ‘bring the world and change the church.’
Lefty, the Sodom and Gomorrah Scripture could stand for both acts. Homosexuality and rape, but regardless of your argument it does pertain to homosexuality as so many other Scriptures do, and that’s also another problem with fellow believers today, people do not want to be told they are sinners or take responsibility for their sins. They want their ‘religion’ to suit them, as I’ve read in other places, super-size me! It’s not meant to be that way, it is what it is and I thank God that he’s provided clear instruction for us. How we ‘choose’ to interpret it and whether we’ve interpreted it and lived it correctly we’ll soon find out after our deaths. I would rather err on the side of caution and would definitely hate to have been wrong in this life when standing in front of the throne. That would not be the time to try to argue semantics or plead stupidity about the Word of God.
I do not believe I have taken the Scripture out of context. I believe that if anyone claims to be a Christian they should know the Word of God and the Word clearly states in Gen. 19:1-7 “The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.” “No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.” But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom —both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.” Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing.” DO YOU SEE the part that says the MEN surrounded Lots house and were demanding he bring out the 2 men (angels) that came to the city so they could have SEX with them. I believe that meets the criteria of a homosexual act and God’s own Word further into the chapter states Gen. 19:11-13 “Then they (the angels) struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door. The two men (angels) said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”
God’s judgment comes against those who disobey his Word. It grieves my heart and soul to know that the Church and its Congregation has forgotten that God’s Word was provided to us as a Warning from Israel’s history. 1Cor. 10:6-13 “Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry.” We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. And do not grumble, as some of them did —and were killed by the destroying angel. These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.”
Why would a congregation want a blatantly and openly non-repentant sinner to lead their congregation? It baffles me to no end.
Sacr1fyce is correct. "Lefty" I understand passions can lead to blindness of the truth. Deep down you know the orthodox view is correct. Homosexuality is a sin and those that practice and not repent are not going to inherent the kingdom of God. Remember that God said that it is better to obey than sacrifice. Scriptures are not open for personal interpretations. They mean what they say. Stilling is a sin no matter how you look at it and so is homosexuality. May the Lord open your eyes. By the way, emaracin you are absolute correct, let's bring the world and change the church.
These verses are taken from the New English Translation: http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm
Here is a decent Q&A on Homosexuality and the Bible: http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1302
Leviticus 18:22
You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman; it is a detestable act.
Leviticus 20:13
If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.
Romans 1:24-27
Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
1st Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Leviticus 20:13
13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Nice try rr2002, but I would argue that the Sodom and Gomorrah scripture doesn't state that homosexuality is immoral or perversion. I would argue that it means that rape (whether homosexual or not) is immoral. You would have to agree that in this story the men of the town were trying to break down the door of Lot's house in order to get to the men inside. That sounds like intended rape to me.
As for Romans, you read into this what you choose (as we all do, based on our personal convictions). It doesn't necessarily mean that the act of consensual homosexual sex between two loving commited men is "unnatural". You just choose to interpret it your way and I choose to interpret it mine.
Hi lefty. I think emaracin's Sodom and Gomorah example refers to the very act (or attempt) of homosecuality. Genesis 19:4-5
4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
In addition, there are Paul's critiques on Homosexuality in Romans 1
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
But I guess this may not be a "proof" that you desire. I am inclined more toward the argument of original creation of God and the role of man and woman according to it.
Emaracin, your scripture quotations prove nothing. You have quoted NOTHING that states that being gay/lesbian or participating in gay/lesbian relationships is sexual immorality. You only imply it. Your citations use the term "sexual immorality and perversion", but DO NOT define what acts or beliefs are considered "sexual immorality and perversion". You have implied that these scriptures pertain to the gay/lesbian debate, but I challange you to PROVE that this is without a doubt what was meant in these passages. You are free to believe what you want, of course, but you shouldn't try to act the expert by quoting scripture out of context.
I am shocked that the church is even debating this issue. I feel compelled to point out, as the Scripture points out in Jude 1:7 and so many other places that: "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." It would behoove our church leaders and members of the congregations to remember how sexual immorality was dealt with in Scripture. We are told in 1Cor. 5:11 that “you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral” 1Cor. 5:12, 13. “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
Another denomination that goes to the gutter...if one doesn't care for the Bible, the Word of God, at least they shouldn't pretend being Christian.