Dawkin's Call to Atheists 'in the Closet' is a Christian Wake-Up Call

aberdeen »

Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:24 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 10

Based on the title of his book, according to Richard Dawkins, the following people were all "delusional": Isaiah, Jesus, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, DaVinci, Newton, Einstein, Darwin (yes, even Darwin believed in God), Martin Luther King, Jr., Cesar Chavez, John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Helen Keller, Eleanor Roosevelt, Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Red Cloud and America's beloved Samuel Clemens.

It doesn't take much of a monkey brain to figure out who is really delusional.

Why would anybody be afraid of someone as ignorant as Richard Dawkins? Oxford University ought to be run up a flag pole and tarred and feathered out of existence for granting him a degree.

Richard Aberdeen
www.FreedomTracks.com

BOC560 »

Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:08 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

Chocolate, please don't be decieved. There is indeed a God of Abraham but these false teachers do not represent Him. You cannot rely on the teaching of the profiteering pastors and theologians to provide truth in securing your salvation. (There is no money to be made in speaking the truth.) You must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling by your own study and earnest endeavor.

There are thousands of false religions but there is only ONE true faith in Christ. As an example, see this link to just those of the Baptists alone!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Baptist_denominations

The differences mostly expressed are not just trivial matters but of SALVATION itself! These scholars who have devoted their lives to the study of the scriptures in order to lead us pilgrims to God cannot even agree on the very BASICS of Christianity. They do not understand the first basic aspect of a subject they all presume to champion.

When scripture tells us the way is narrow and few are those who will find it, don’t be surprised that FEW WILL FIND IT! Considering their myriad of false teachings, I don’t expect to meet very many preachers, pastors or theologians in Heaven.

BOC560

DannyPoo »

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Chocolate, thanks for responding, now that this article is no longer in the "top most commented" articles we will not get interrupted to any great degree.

<Could you tell me what the theistic moral principals have that a society’s moral principles wouldn’t have? I know they would say something like “don’t kill”, “don’t steal”, “be nice to other people” and the like, in other words, common sense.>
<What belief? In what? So you do not believe that a person could be nice just because he or she was raised that way. While growing up a person was constantly told, taught by parents, school, society what was expected of him/her in terms of behavior, saw how those parents, teachers, and people behaved (which is more important than any words), his brain, his conscience formed. I find this approach is much better than create some character and then constantly try to keep a person in fear >

The root of what I was getting at was, trying to determine Why and how you determine what is right and wrong. For example, I can justify pretty quickly why murder, suicide etc. are wrong. Yet often from an atheistic worldview I am not given any solid ground as to why one thing is right or wrong apart from "how they were brought up" or etc.

Basically what I am asking you is why is for example Murder wrong from an Atheistic worldview? I realize you believe its wrong to harm other people, but why is it wrong to harm other people? I realize you believe that is better to treat other people like you would want to be treated, but Why do you hold to that?

To be honest, I am just simply not seeing how an Atheistic worldview accounts for the existance of morality. Now im not saying this to disprove Atheism, Atheism can potentially be true regardless of whether that worldview can account for morality.

And to be honest, maybe this is just my ignorance, maybe there is something you can tell me about Atheism that I do not know that helps justify the existence of Morality. I just simply do not see it, here are some common examples of reasons I have been given,

The Atheist might say:
"We originate our morals from nature" the problem- some animals eat their young.
"We originate our morals from our culture, or current accepted values" cultures change, slavery (the type that allowed by "Christians") was once considered ok. Does this mean that slavery of that type was Moral?
"We originateour morals from the principle of "as long as it does not harm others"" Where does this principle come from? Certainly not from the evolutionary perspective.

Also Chocolate, if your interested in discussing this more in e-mail (xdannypoox@aol.com) , I would be more than glad to do so. I think I could learn some things form you, maybe you could help me understand your perspective better. etc.

Chocolate »

Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:23 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Continuation of my message to DannyPoo

<Therefore, often my conclusion is that Atheists act morally in spite of Atheism, not because of. >

I really don’t understand what you mean here. “Atheists act morally in spite of Atheism”? It doesn’t make sense to me. Atheism is just an opinion that there is no superpower. What does this would have anything to do with morality? I guess you need to live in the society I grew up to understand it. I never was exposed to religion except in books or movies about the past times when my country was very religious.

My grandmothers were believers when they were children but not later. My parents or I have never been religious. Since we lived in a new developed area, we didn’t have any kind of churches for miles around. In other places, if they still had churches, most of them were turned into museums. We lived in a small town. Most people would lock their houses or apartments and put the key under the rug in front of the front door because it was convenient. A family could have one key. Everybody knew that, but we didn’t have any crime. People in all neighboring little towns did the same. But I doubt they did it in big cities. In very big cities people were not afraid to go for a stroll late at night. Crime was not a problem what so ever. I lived in that country for thirty years. Believe me it’s real. All people are atheists which only means they do not believe a superpower exists, and no problems with crime. I guess they found their own reasons to follow the moral principles. Please understand me right. I do not say that we didn’t have any crime what so ever. Yes, we also had crime, and prisons, and prisoners only it was so little that most people didn’t encounter it. Crime was not a problem.

<God is able to provide morals,> You don’t believe that a person can provide morals? It’s hard for me to understand.

<God not only provides it, but has the Authority to make the claim that the act of loving your neighbor is moral.> But ‘god’ is created by Man. How an imaginary character can be an authority?

<An Atheist can certianly teach "love you neighbor as yourself" Yet I am unable to conclude where they get this belief....> What belief? In what? So you do not believe that a person could be nice just because he or she was raised that way. While growing up a person was constantly told, taught by parents, school, society what was expected of him/her in terms of behavior, saw how those parents, teachers, and people behaved (which is more important than any words), his brain, his conscience formed. I find this approach is much better than create some character and then constantly try to keep a person in fear “God is watching… When you die ….” A good behavior should come from your heart and your conscience and not because someone is watching you….

Chocolate »

Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:22 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

DannyPoo,

<I was intending to say that Atheists claim that theistic moral principals are inferior, therefore atheists believe they don't need theistic moral principals.>

Could you tell me what the theistic moral principals have that a society’s moral principles wouldn’t have? I know they would say something like “don’t kill”, “don’t steal”, “be nice to other people” and the like, in other words, common sense.

<Certainly if there are that few Atheists in America statistically than the group is simply not large enough to get an accurate picture of what Atheists are like morally when they are a majority.>

That’s true, I agree with that.

<I am sorry that people immediately conclude that because your an atheist that you have no morality.>

No, I was talking about bloggers. I was not talking about me personally. Nobody who knows me would ever say that. One Catholic priest (a very nice person) even said to me one time that I had more morality than some Christians.

<I believe many atheists are moral, yet I fail to understand why Atheists do Moral things when it is my opinion that the belief system fails to produce solid reasons for morality.>

When I read this comment, I was in complete shock. Honestly. I was speechless and was saying, “Wow, wow, wow.” I cannot even comprehend how a person could think so. No, you don’t need to apologies. You just expressed how you were feeling and understanding the situation of “Why would a person obey the rules?” You probably were born and grew up in a religious family in ‘most religious’ country. Your understanding of things formed while you were growing in this environment, with certain ideas put in your head. I was born and grew up in a totally different environment. I was born and grew up in an atheistic family in an atheistic country. You and I have different way of thinking. You cannot imagine that a person can follow moral principals without any fear of a god or other supernatural power. I feel now as if you and I came from different planets. I lived with very nice people around me, helpful, considering, caring. No of my relatives, friends, neighbors, teachers, other people around me believed in any kind of god or superpower. Everybody followed moral rules. I guess they did that because they knew if they were not nice to people around them, the people wouldn’t be nice to them in return. They didn’t need and they still don’t need any superpower supervision. Their conscience is their guide.

DannyPoo »

Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Chocolate
In response to my statement of:
<Some Christians do not follow their claimed theistic moral principals,
Therefore, theistic moral principles are inferior, we don't need them.>
You stated:

<You are right about ‘appears’. People see things differently. I never said “we don’t need moral principles”. Do you see the difference? >

I apologize if it appears as though I was saying that Atheists are saying they don't need morals. I was intending to say that Atheists claim that theistic moral principals are inferior, therefore atheists believe they don't need theistic moral principals.

<You said it. I never stated that “Atheists are more moral”. You questioned atheists’ morality. I gave you statistics (numbers), and you concluded this based on statistics. >

Actually, I never questioned whether Atheists were moral. Atheists can certainly be moral. Also, I never concluded that Atheists were More moral. Certainly if there are that few Atheists in America statistically than the group is simply not large enough to get an accurate picture of what Atheists are like morally when they are a majority. As you and I both know, every group, including Christianity produces different results when they are in the Majority.

You stated:
<I’m always puzzled: as soon as a conversation begins about a god, many believers in a hurry switch to ‘morality’ claiming that ‘those nonbelievers have no morality’. I can say that it’s true not just for the believers of this country. As I stated earlier, I do not see the connection between ‘morality’ and the belief in a god.>

I am sorry that people immediately conclude that because your an atheist that you have no morality. I believe many atheists are moral, yet I fail to understand why Atheists do Moral things when it is my opinion that the belief system fails to produce solid reasons for morality.

Therefore, often my conclusion is that Atheists act morally in spite of Atheism, not because of.
The reason believers see a connection between the morality and belief in God. Is because God is able to provide morals, ex: Love your neighbor as yourself. In this way God not only provides it, but has the Authority to make the claim that the act of loving your neighbor is moral. An Atheist can certianly teach "love you neighbor as yourself" Yet I am unable to conclude where they get this belief....

anniefourjesus »

Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

I'm back for one more post. God brought this thought to my mind. Why is Chocolate, a person that does not believe in God, come to a Christian site? We are Christians, we choose to believe their is a God; and you choose to not believe. I prayed about something you said in response to my previous post. God is not simply in my head, HE is in my heart, I have a personal relationship with my Heavenly Father. God is not just some character. Man has no morality apart from God. God is moral and HE is just!
It's amazing to me how the very ones who claim they do not need God or believe in Him, are always at Christian websites, throwing out their stuff, and I just wonder why???

I pray for you Chocolate that Jesus Christ will make Himself known to you in the most real way possible, that's what happened to Saul who then became known as Paul.
If you go throughout HISTORY there is EVIDENCE that demands a verdict and JESUS CHRIST was quite real, He lived, He was crucified and He rose again! That is FACTS!
Read, The Case for a Creator, and The Case for Christ, Lee Strobel. But then, you don't really want to know God by what you've stated here, and God's Okay with that.
You will meet Him face to face one day, as we all shall and then you will discover just how wrong you have been.

Now, this truly is my last post on this line. People give you their own personal testimony, and still you don't believe.
You take a good long look around this world, and you can see the Planet DYING! This is a dead planet, and only life in Jesus can bring life! Those are the facts, the Lord wanted me to present today and for the those who have an ear to HEAR what The Spirit is saying...Keep your eyes on the EASTERN skies! Come Lord Jesus Come! -- For His Glory, In His love and service, Annie

Chocolate »

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:05 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Dear DannyPoo,

<To be fair, you must admit Atheists are not able to stand completely innocent in their actions towards human kind as well.>

Yes, I agree. I’ve always said that no one or anything is perfect. People make mistakes. It’s human to make mistakes. It’s normal for people to make mistakes, but we should learn from our mistakes and try not to make the same mistakes again and again.

<we must not follow Hasty Generalizations.>

I completely agree with this statement, and I want to add: we must be CAREFUL when we generalize. We shouldn’t use ‘ALL’ since practically anything has exceptions. We shouldn’t generalize from one case we see or hear. For example, Christianpost.com in its article ‘America most religious country…’ generalizes but it doesn’t use ‘ALL’. After the poll it generalized that women were more religious than men. That doesn’t mean that ‘all’ women are believers.

<In the case of the argument by Chocolate, his argument appears to be:

Some Christians do not follow their claimed theistic moral principals,
Therefore, theistic moral principles are inferior, we don't need them.>

You are right about ‘appears’. People see things differently. I never said “we don’t need moral principles”. Do you see the difference? Many different religions have about the same ‘theistic’ moral principles that are not that much different from a society’s moral principles where those religions exist. A society apart from religion has its moral principles. What I said was: I don’t need a god or a bible to tell me common sense. People live in a society, and they make rules of behavior. They don’t claim that someone else made the rules of behavior for them. My point is that we don’t need to create a character in order to be good people.

<His other basic fallacy is one he is applying to himself
Percentage wise, fewer atheists are criminals in America.
Therefore, Atheists are more moral.>

You said it. I never stated that “Atheists are more moral”. You questioned atheists’ morality. I gave you statistics (numbers), and you concluded this based on statistics.

If you read all of my comments on this site but not necessarily on this particular web page, you should have seen that I said earlier: There are a lot of good people. Some of them are believers, and some of them are not. There are bad people out there too. Some of them are believers, and some of them are not. I have many friends. Some of them are believers, and some of them are not.

I’m always puzzled: as soon as a conversation begins about a god, many believers in a hurry switch to ‘morality’ claiming that ‘those nonbelievers have no morality’. I can say that it’s true not just for the believers of this country. As I stated earlier, I do not see the connection between ‘morality’ and the belief in a god.

DannyPoo »

Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:24 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

It will be interesting to see where the future leads as far as church attendance. Something that the article you posted doesn't take into account however, is house churches. As a church goer myself I have many friends who have decided to leave the traditional church and instead attend a house-church.

Alot of what has happened in main-stream denominations is fluff without stuff. People, like myself are tired of Just hearing funny antecdotes, interesting quotes etc. from their Pastoral sermons (those items are fine, but we need More than that).

Instead, some people want "hardcore" bible study, they want to learn to defend their faith, they want to learn to evangelize, and are going to smaller churches or house churches to find that. This is something that I am excited about as I am finding it far more common in just the last 6 or 7 years (since becoming a Christian)

mburkel »

Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:26 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Instead of worrying about the atheists taking away believers from the cause, you should be more concerned with what's causing the loss of your young adults:

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070808/28813_Survey%3A_Reasons_Why_Young_Adults_Quit_Church.htm

In Europe less than 50% of the population believe in a monotheistic deity. Don't think it won't happen here as well.

DannyPoo »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

I think it is a fair argument that you mention that Christians, or at least a certain populace that claims be Christian. I looked at several of the examples that you mentioned, yet I could not find where their actions were in alignment with Christian moral principles.

Therefore, I come to the conclusion that those people were not aligning with the Christian theistic moral principles, and are not applicable to your argument that Christianity is producing these obviously sinful events.

To be fair, you must admit Atheists are not able to stand completely innocent in their actions towards human kind as well. I can and will cite examples if you request it.

However, I am aware of the fallaciousness of such an argument, we must not follow Hasty Generalizations. Simply because specific members of a Religious group do not follow the Moral tradition of their founder (in this case Jesus) does not invalidate those principles.

I am sure you are aware of the Fallacy of Hasty generalization but for the sake of the reader, this is an example of a Hasty generalization:

Some of the Christians I met are hypocritical.
Therefore, all Christians are hypocrites.

An atheist I met made some very irrational arguments.
Therefore, most atheists are irrational.

In the case of the argument by Chocolate, his argument appears to be:

Some Christians do not follow their claimed theistic moral principals,
Therefore, theistic moral principles are inferior, we don't need them.

His other basic fallacy is one he is applying to himself
Percentage wise, fewer atheists are criminals in America.
Therefore, Atheists are more moral.

I apologize if I am mis-representing your argument in any way. This is simply what I drew from your statements, and it concerns me that this could potentially be your line of reasoning against theistic moral principles.

Chocolate »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:00 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Dear DannyPoo,

Christianpost.com posted an article titled ‘America the most religious country among its allies’ (http://www.christianpost.com/article/20050606/21140_Poll:_America_Most_Religious_Among_its_Allies.htm):

America is the most religious country among its allies with only two percent of its citizens saying they do not believe in God, according to a recent Associated Press poll.

So, 98% of Americans are religious people, and we should assume with a lot of ‘theistic Moral elements’ in them. Am I right? And 2 % of Americans, we can say, are atheists without ‘theistic Moral elements’. Right?

Now, according to the Federal Bureau of Prisons (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm) in 2006 there were over two million (2,245,189 to be exact) prisoners held in Federal or State prisons or in local jails. Do you think all of these prisoners were atheists with no ‘theistic Moral elements’? What percentage of prisoners do you think were atheists with no ‘theistic Moral elements’?

The Federal Bureau of Prisons has statistics on religious affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of inmates per religion category:
Catholic - 29,267(39.164%)
Protestant- 26,162 (35.008%)
Muslim - 5,435 (7.273%)
Jewish - 1,325 (1.773%)
Church of Christ - 1,303 (1.744%)
Buddhist - 882 (1.180%)
Adventist - 621(0.831%)
Mormon - 298 (0.399%)
Scientology - 190 (0.254%)
Atheist - 156 (0.209%)
Hindu - 119 (0.159%)
And so on, go to the site (http://holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm) to see the whole table if you are interested.

Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%). Are you surprised? Or don’t want to believe the numbers? What do you think these believers with a lot of ‘theistic Moral elements’ in them are doing in prison?

See? There are plenty of criminals who are believers. I don’t believe that morality could be measured by whether that person believes in an imaginary character or not. I don’t want my son to be nice to other people because he is in FEAR that otherwise ‘god’ will punish him after he dies. I want my son to be nice to other people because it’s the right thing to do; it’s a good thing to do, because you should treat others the way you want to be treated. It’s common sense. I don’t need a god or a bible to tell me that.

Chocolate »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Dear DannyPoo,

What ‘theistic Moral elements’ are you talking about? Have you heard of the scandal of clergy sexually abusing children? Do you know that Church pays millions of dollars in court to defend its ‘holy’ clergy filled with ‘theistic Moral elements’ from head to toe? Take into account that Church worked very hard to keep it a secret, but there have been so many cases of this kind that it was unable to hide it from the world. They kept popping up all over the place.

BBC News: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/130456.stm
The Roman Catholic Church in the American city of Dallas has agreed to pay nearly $31million to 12 former altar boys who were sexually abused by a former priest.

The Church, which had earlier agreed a multi-million dollar settlement with three other claimants, had been ordered to pay the victims nearly $120 million by a court last year.

FACTnet: http://www.factnet.org/?p=140
Catholic Church pays 660 million dollars to victims of its religious abuses.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/01/05/news/abuse.php
Church pays $100 million over abuse.

http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/nletter/page120-Garchow-Moloney.html
Church pays big money to lawyers to fight criminal charges.

Are you talking about these ‘theistic Moral elements’?

Let’s look at Chuck Colson. He cheated. He lied. He served his term in prison for that. Now he is a prominent religious figure…. preaching ME morality? How not to lie and cheat?

DannyPoo »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:29 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

<You like the idea of a god. It makes you feel good about yourself and the world.>

This may or may not be a valid statement about Art, yet I have met atheists as well who "like" the idea of there being No God, it allows them to live a life free of the theistic Moral elements and makes them "feel good".

I'm not sure whether you meant your statement as an argument against the belief system of Art, or it was simply a comment. I will assume the latter, but I simply wanted to clarify that even Atheists sometimes choose atheism because they "feel good" about it without sorting through facts to come to the intellectual rather than emotional conclusion. This emotional conclusion is not limited to theistc worldviews.

Citizen »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:11 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Chocolate,

Looks like you've got things well in hand here. Guess I'm redundant. On the upside, I have managed to get four thumbs down (and no thumbs up) for a comment on "The Four Questions Christians Must Answer" (even though they only bring up two of them). So that's pretty sweet.

Chocolate »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:02 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Dear Art,

<chocolate, I am very hurt in my heart for you. I feel a great sorrow in my heart for you after reading your post.>

That’s your choice. You choose to feel that way. I didn’t mean to hurt anybody. You expressed your opinion about certain things. That’s how you see the world. I expressed my opinion about the same things. As you can tell I don’t see the world the same way you see it. I consider that expressing my opinion of how I see the world is very appropriate here since this web page is discussing atheists. Wouldn’t you want to know what atheists think and why they think that way? If you don’t want to know it, then why are you discussing them on this web page in the first place?

<I know that God loves you and gave Himself for you even as He did for mankind.>

Sorry, I don’t buy it. It doesn’t make sense. How a person in this situation can give his or her life for mankind? I understand when a certain country is attacked and many people of that country would give their lives to save their generation from being killed or turn into slaves. But I don’t see the ‘danger for mankind’ for which that legendary man gave his life. And for that matter how can one person save mankind by just dying? Isn’t it a little exaggeration-imagination?

<I know that you and I have an enemy that hates us>

Oh, no, Art. I don’t hate you. You like the idea of a god. It makes you feel good about yourself and the world. It doesn’t hurt me in anyway. Why would I hate you?

<satan hates us and attempts to destroy us>

Don’t forget, Art, ‘Satan’ is just another character from the same fairy tale. Get rid of that ‘bad’ character. You will feel better. This way you will get rid of the idea that someone or something ‘is going to destroy you’. You will get a peace of mind. It’s worth trying.

artm »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:49 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Reading some of the posts on this subject is quite alarming to me. chocolate, I am very hurt in my heart for you. I feel a great sorrow in my heart for you after reading your post.

I know that God loves you and gave Himself for you even as He did for mankind.

I know that you and I have an enemy that hates us because we were made in the image of God.satan hates us and attempts to destroy us because he knows how much God really does love us.

satan can't hurt God personally,so he sets out to hurt Gods prized creation mankind.

I love you chocolate,God loves you even more, I will be praying for you. Art.

Chocolate »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:55 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Dear Annie,

<my belief in God and my love for Him, is not imagination.>

No one doubts that. You really believe and you really love. Except you love and believe in a character made up by Man. That character was put in your head when you were a child. You didn’t create your god. It was done before you. You just accepted it.

<I know that He is the Creator,>

Annie, you take too much on yourself. No one knows that, otherwise, it would be a fact and, therefore, would be studied at schools. But it’s NOT a FACT. It’s just a BELIEF which means there is no evidence for that and every person has a choice whether to believe it or not.

<Man has rebelled against God,>

This is how you see it. And which god are you talking about? Are you talking just about your god or other people’s gods too? I bet only your god exists for you. Other people’s gods don’t exist for you, like Allah, Buddha, etc. Am I right?

<one day when you stand before Him as we all shall. You will remember this conversation.>

Annie, ‘remember’ is one of many activities of the brain. The brain does ‘remembering’, ‘seeing’, ‘hearing’, ‘learning’, ‘finding out’, ‘analyzing’, ‘processing’ information, etc. When you die, your brain dies. A dead brain cannot do its usual activities. I’m afraid when you die or for that matter anybody dies, you or anybody else (and I’m not an exception) won’t be able to ‘see’, ‘hear’, ‘learn’, ‘remember’, etc. Can you imagine when you die and ‘go to your heaven’, you leave your eyes, your ears, your speaking organs, and, the most important, your brain behind? How are going to ‘remember’ anything without your brain, when your brain became inactive? I hope it’s not too scientific for you.

anniefourjesus »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:02 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Chocolate: First let me say this, my belief in God and my love for Him, is not imagination. God is Spirit and He is life. I do not blame my parents for the past. I said, when I was a child, this was how I felt as I did not have all the facts. As an adult I have learned that God is always with us; just because He allows things, doesn't mean He approves of them.
I believe and love God with my whole heart, mind, and soul. I know that He is the Creator, I was created in His image, I was created to show that God is real and that He loves each one of us. God loved me first, and He has taught me what true love is.
God does not need me or anyone else to defend Him, to declare HIS presence, the Creation is speaking of The Creator at all times. The Heavens declare HIS Glory!
Man has rebelled against God, and because God has blessed man with so many things, man figures he can just do fine without Him. Well, we were not created for ourselves. We were created to glorify and magnify God, and HE alone is Worthy of that Glory and Honor!
This is my last and final post on this subject.
I pray that one day HE will make HIMSELF known to you in such a way that you will be astounded that you ever denied Him!

God's blessings to everyone on this blog; I have given my testimony of what HE has done in my life and if you still deny Him, what is there left for me to say.

God bless you and keep you, and one day when you stand before Him as we all shall. You will remember this conversation.

For HIS GLORY!
Annie

Chocolate »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Jimmywitz <I really don't worry about atheism.>

And you shouldn’t. Do you worry about Islam? It doesn’t look like you worry about Buddhism. Do you worry about any other religion that is different from yours? Atheism or any religion is just an opinion about the world. Everybody has the right for his/her own opinion. That’s the way they see the world around them.

<After all, it seems to be merely a little diversion along the way to a greater understanding of the presence of God's love in our lives.>

Talking about diversion! I decided to look into RELIGION to see ‘What kind of animal is that that fascinates that many people?’, and found out that there are tons of different religions with their own gods, traditions, rituals, etc.

Chocolate »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Dear Annie,

<Many people don't want to believe in God because somewhere in their life they go hurt (by a person(s) ) and they blame GOD; and so they're angry with Him, so better to believe that He doesn't exist.>

Oh, no! Dear Annie, you are talking about your personal experience. People have different experiences in their lives. I’ve never been angry with something that doesn’t exist in reality but rather in some people’s heads. No one ever put a seed of religion in my head when I was growing up. Annie, when someone hurt me, the idea of a god has never entered my mind. I would blame that person for hurting me and also his or her parents for not teaching that person how he or she should treat real people around him or her. But in your situation (and you are not the only one in this situation) I shouldn’t blame your parents. Unfortunately, for the reason I don’t know they couldn’t raise you. In this case I would blame the environment in which that person who hurt me was raised up.

<He just does not exist for them!> That’s right. Yours or somebody else’s god does not exist in my head. I rely only on myself, my relatives, my friends, and many people around me. There are a lot of good people no matter whether they are believers or not.

<If folks want to believe that there is no God, that is their choice;> Yes, that’s exactly right. Every person chooses to believe or not to believe. And they also choose what to believe and what not to believe.

Chocolate »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:21 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

Dear Annie, a lot of what we feel depends on the circumstances we are in.

<Over the last ten years, HE has so change me and my life>
I’m very happy for you that something changed your life for better. It really doesn’t matter whether that ‘something’ is real or just your imagination. The most important thing is that you are happy and your heart is not empty anymore. I can’t imagine growing up without my mom, my dad, and my sister. You lived in a foster family who probably were not nice to you (you hated them for something, right?). My heart goes out to you. I guess I was a lucky one who grew up in a nice family, in a nice house, with good food, good friends. I was happy with everything I had. Without any gods I loved my mom, I loved my dad, I loved my sister, I loved my friends. I loved my town. I loved my school. God didn’t have any room in my life. My heart was never empty. I never was a rebellious child. I never did drugs or booze. I never considered of running away from home. Why would anyone to want to run away from a loving family?

<I tried everything in life to fill the ache in my empty heart, food, drugs, booze, children, marriage, and nothing worked.> Annie, nothing works by itself. YOU need to work at it. I have a happy marriage and a loving child. I do not expect that my marriage is going to work by itself. I do not rely on any gods either. I work at my marriage, and that’s why it works. Of course your spouse needs to work at it too.

<One day I prayed,> You see, Annie, I don’t need to pray for anything. I have everything I need and want. This is my personal experience. It looks like your life cannot be a happy one without a god, and my life is just fine without any gods.

<when you really want to know Him and find Him, you will!> That’s right, Annie. I completely agree with you. When you really want something and work hard to get it, you will get it. Although to ‘see’ something that doesn’t exist also depends a lot on a particular person’s born ability of being able hypnotized.

So, when your god came to you, did you ask it ‘Where have you been all this time?’ ‘Why did you take my parents away?’ ‘What did I do wrong to deserve this kind of life?’ ‘Why do other people have decent lives when they don’t even believe you exist?’?

<HE CREATED US!!!> Annie, this is how you FEEL it, but there is a lot of reasonable explanations of when, how, and why WE CREATED GODS.

Citizen »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:45 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

crossfire: When you say your evidence is jesus christ, what you mean is your evidence is the bible, which is no more likely to be true than spiderman comics.

billyshakesspeare: You presume that the universe was created in the first place, and there is no evidence for that. It's just an assumption that makes you feel good.

anniefourjesus: just because believing in a god turned your life around, doesn't make that belief true. Furthermore, I had a wonderful experience as a Christian. It was reason that convinced me to drop my faith, not an emotional response to pain.

jimmywitz: if you define god as "all that existences" why is the word "god" even necessary? We have words for the universe and stars and planets already, that do not imply a supernatural creator. At the same time, you talk about a personal god, which is something else altogether, and for which there is no evidence. You call people who don't believe insane, but its the people who believe they are receiving messages from non-existent entities and who claim god tells them to kill people who are committed to institutions.

jimmywitz »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

If God is all there is, then there can be nowhere in this universe where God is not present, and nothing in this uiverse that is not made of God.
So what can atheism be, other than
1. A rejection of what someone else's definition of God ...or
2. An unfortunate period of insanity.
I went through a period of atheism, for which I am extremely grateful, because it enabled me to empty my consciousness of some foolish preconceptions of what God is. As the Bhuddists say "a cup may not be filled, until it is first emptied". Thus my own cup was anbled to be emptied of sand and rubble, and filled with the holy water of true experience.
I know this is true for me, because God did for me what I had never been able to do for myself .
So, as a result of my own experience, I really don't worry about atheism. After all, it seems to be merely a little diversion along the way to a greater understanding of the presence of God's love in our lives.

anniefourjesus »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Many people don't want to believe in God because somewhere in their life they go hurt (by a person(s) ) and they blame GOD; and so they're angry with Him, so better to believe that He doesn't exist. THat doesn't mean that God does not exist. He just does not exist for them!
I used to live just like this! I was hurt painfully so and so I blamed God; but I learned a few truths and got the full story. I know the difference between a fairy tale and the truth. Jesus Christ is the only truth. If folks want to believe that there is no God, that is their choice; but I am called to give testimony that HE is quite real! To say otherwise would be a great lie!

anniefourjesus »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

My evidence is my own testimony, my own life and how HE showed Himself to me and I have learned that HE has written the knowledge of Himself on every human heart and if you really want to KNOW HIM you will and if you really DO NOT WANT to see Him or know Him...then you won't!!! Many people like living in rebellion and they don't want God telling them what to do! I speak from my own experience. I looked at my own DEAD world and came to my senses and knew that GOD was HEARING MY CRY! God is more real than we are!!!! HE CREATED US!!!
Man is incredible, that God creates Him out of love and His very creation, denies Him for they would rather live in rebellion. HE healed me to bless me with the life HE created me to have all along. Not the empty one handed to me by this dead world! Praises to You Father God!

anniefourjesus »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

The reason that I believe that God is real, is because, when I was a little girl growing up in foster care, i hated people, i hated life, and I hated God, whoever that was. I didn't know Him.
I tried everything in life to fill the ache in my empty heart, food, drugs, booze, children, marriage, and nothing worked. One day I prayed, God I don't know love, and I'd like to know if you're real and if you are show me. WELL, HE did! It was the most amazing thing, when you really want to know Him and find Him, you will! Over the last ten years, HE has so change me and my life, it is a blessing and a priviledge to TESTIFY that HE IS SO REAL!!!!
My heart goes out to those who would deny HIM! So, I pray that HE will open their hearts to know Him! Thank YOU Father God, for showing this child, just how REAL YOU ARE!!!!
I love YOU PAPA GOD! Jesus is LORD! In His love...Annie

Chocolate »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Crossfire <Hard evidence does exist. And it tells me that God is very real >

Wow, I’m dying from curiosity. What is that ‘hard evidence’ (I don’t count feelings as ‘hard evidence’) that tells you that your god exists? Could you share your ‘hard evidence’ with me?

<I hope one day that you'll have the heart to look for him too and find Him yourself.>

I’m afraid it’s too late. I grew up. I’m too big to believe in fairy tales.

billyshakespeare12 »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Jesus Christ (although the best proof) is only one of the many pieces of evidence God gives to us. All of His creation is proof (Romans). If there is a creation, there had to be a Creator. Creation implies Creator like Son implies Father (at one point in time) - to put it simply.

crossfire »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

To Chocolate:

Hard evidence does exist. And it tells me that God is very real ... as real as the air that we breathe. I've looked for Him and found Him. I hope one day that you'll have the heart to look for him too and find Him yourself.

crossfire »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

To Citizen:

We have proof in God's existence. His name is Jesus Christ.

Citizen »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:26 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

crossfire: Regarding your "Matrix" comments, we must do the best we can with the tools we have. Maybe we are all brains in vats, but there is no way to figure out whether this is true or not yet, so it is best to proceed as though it were not. When we have reason to believe that it is, then things will be different.

Many Christians say that "atheists can't prove that god doesn't exist," but you can't disprove the existence of the invisible golden unicorn that grants wishes in my house, therefore you must believe in it, and it commands you to search the world for a mate for it. You see the problem, then, when people are required to prove that claims aren't true, versus when those who make the claim have the burden of persuasion?

Chocolate »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

Crossfire <I would like you to consider ideas like those presented in the movie "Matrix" which may cause us to question if the physically observable things are as reliable and trustworthy as we believe.>

I haven’t watched “Matrix”, but I’m just curious. Are you talking about special effects done with computer software or are you talking about hallucinations? Are you trying to tell me that when I see my desk and when I touch it and feel it, my desk might be no more than just my hallucination? So, hard evidence doesn’t exist for you? Do you believe that hard evidence exists only for atheists?

<I haven't come across any evidence that proves that God doesn't exist.>

What kind of evidence were you looking for that would support “God doesn’t exist”? When someone tells me that ‘something’ exists, I would try to find that ‘something’. But what do you look for to prove that that ‘something’ doesn’t exist? Wouldn’t you look for that ‘something’ to prove that it exists?

crossfire »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

To Citizen and other atheists:

While I can understand why you would see physical, tangible, visible signs as more trustworthy than the unseen, I would like you to consider ideas like those presented in the movie "Matrix" which may cause us to question if the physically observable things are as reliable and trustworthy as we believe. In a way, believing in those things can be viewed just as much as "leaping with faith" as it is to believe in the unseen.

Another piece of food for thought. I haven't come across any evidence that proves that God doesn't exist. So again, it seems to me that people who do not believe in His existence are, again, taking a "leap of faith" in holding to their belief in the absence of God.

Anyway, those are just pieces of food for thought, and not full-out arguments. Just thought I'd toss those out there.

DannyPoo »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:32 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

Sarita,

First, the bible does not explicitly say the earth was made in 5,000/6,000 years. That is a conclusion that some Christians have drawn for themselves. I would challenge you to find a place in scripture that actually says 6,000 years or otherwise.

Second, at least in America it is always free to air publicallly what we believe,.....if you think it shouldn't then your statement is hypocritical because you aired publically what you believe.

Sarita »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:59 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

I'm neither an atheist nor a scientist, but I’ve been dissatisfied with the churches for a while now. So here go my views, if I may.

My gut feeling is that there is something supernatural about this whole creation. What that is, I don't know, but I certainly don't believe it took only 5,000 years.

I have tremendous difficulty believing that the God of the Bible showed up quite often and showed him/herself to humans, and created countless huge amazing miracles, then suddenly stopped altogether and didn't do any of that ever again.

It troubles me greatly that churches proselytize. They should not. Religion should not be a bunch of sideshows hawks selling tickets, “Come see the tattooed lady!” “No, come see the frogman!” It is a strictly personal matter Why should someone else air publicly what I believe in or do not? That's beyond rude. It also troubles me that anyone should make their wages and/or a profit selling God. Should God be a product?

Lastly, the fact that American churches eagerly jumped into bed with a political party, that alone causes me not to trust it. Religion and politics should mix about as well as water and oil. Religion should not be prostituting itself to any form of politics, no way nohow.

sntjohnny »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Anthony Horvath, who is quoted in this article, has a website as well. You can visit it at www.sntjohnny.com

Citizen »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:00 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

Have you considered asking yourselves why atheists are so confident in their critique of supernaturalism? The fact is that atheists care a great deal about truth, and as a general rule, we've found that the bible and faith are poor methods of finding truth. The scientific method is much more reliable.

didymus »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:56 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Although I disagree with the atheists rather strongly, they do unfortunately offer a good critique of at least a certain segment of the Christian community. Especially when the Christian community engages science with misinformation, half-truths, word games, and pseudo-science, the atheists come off looking good, and the Christian community just looks dumb.

We Christians need to stop living with our ‘infallible’ interpretations of the Bible and start engaging the Bible and science/evolution in an honest and forthright manner.

librehombre »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:24 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

What follows are the modest views of an atheist so if this might bother you -- you were warned. You should also know that I have read all the books by the "unholy trinity" plus God is not great. I have also read many critiques of the bible. Have you?

What I find when I read Christian objections to the "unholy trinity" amounts to knee jerk reactions, Please consider that some of the objections raised are legitimate. Just once I would like to hear some Christians admit that there is a lot wrong with their religion that they need to correct (and that goes double for Muslims). Secondly, I would like to hear that believers will stop indoctrinating young children who are by nature gullible (a strong evolutionary trait advanced by Dawkins) and have not developed the emotional strength and maturity to deal with issues like death and dying. Think about your own exposure to religion at an early age. Happy with it?

bcoontz »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:49 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

Fro the atheist who believes that science vindicates their presupposition, I would like to point out that their religion, naturalism, is in direct conflict with several known scientific laws, among them: The First Law of Thermodynamics, that energy and matter can neither be created or destroyed; The Second Law of Thermodynamics, that order always tends to disorder; The Law of Biogenesis, that life only comes from life; the Law of Cause and Effect, that all phenomena (the universe) has a cause (God, the ultimate first cause) to name a few. The idea that nothing expoloded, no time, space, matter or energy and caused everything is patently absurd and flies in the face of all observational science. True science and Biblical truth are not at odds, only belief and unbelief

crossfire »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:42 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

I agree that seeing atheists going out with such tenacity should be a challenge to believers. I think every Christian needs to look at these "militant atheists" and ask themselves if they are going out as boldy for God as they are going for godlessness.

artm »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:08 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

Keep right on trusting in your system of logic and reason. I will continue to trust in the infallable Word of God, And that Word tellls me, " know you not that we shall all stand before God. Art.

FVThinker »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:50 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

"Undoubtedly, the atheist campaign won’t go far." [snicker] That's right, you keep on believing that. How can a system of logic, reason, and continuous empirical insights that debunk biblical
"Truths" convince anybody. It's a test . . . yea that's it . . . it's a test. God DOES work in strange and mysterious ways. It's a test of the believer that they are only armed with weak, watery arguments for the supernatural . . . all to make them better Christians!

Citizen »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:21 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 3

The overwhelming feeling conveyed by this editorial is one of uneasiness. I think more than a few Christians are starting to wonder whether their ancient, washed-up apologetics will even be enough to preserve their dignity in a world where science produces triumph after triumph, and the message of reason is finding mass media attention, at long last.

dgnymn »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:25 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 10

Atheism is a Christian "wake-up call?" Why is everything a wake-up call, when Jesus said clearly that we are not to be caught unaware of what was taking place around us? If Atheists "come out of the closet," as is suggested, is this now supposed to shake our faith as believers? Not at all, but strengthen it!!!

Do we not know the Scripture - "the fool in his heart says there is no God?" While some may suggest this is too simple, the fact of the matter is that 'the cross is foolishness to them that perish," and we preach Christ crucified, if our faith is where it should be!!!

Time to remain vigilant, and don't let the naysayers have their day. It's been their day for centuries. The Apostle Paul dealt with it, so why should it be so different for us?

We need to keep our eyes on Christ!!!