Lutherans Urged Not to Punish Gay Clergy in 'Faithful' Relationships

danpat1_2000 »

Sat May 30, 2009 2:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

" Lutherans Urged Not to Punish Gay Clergy in 'Faithful' Relationships"

Does this include faithful relationships with sheep and horses? Or with a "circle of friends?"

Online4Him »

Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:13 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Saints of God, we should not be surprised by the decline of moral fortitude and sound reasoning in some our churches today. Have we not been forewarned in 2Timothy 3:1-5 –

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those who that are good, Traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Listen to the words of Jesus in Revelation 22:13-17 –

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

We all need to repent and respond to the following invitation:

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

truthintheword »

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:55 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

The truth is we all need to be in church but some of us have no place in the clergy. (Including myself Straight married) The bible clearly states that homosexulaity is wrong. It also says that those of you who are in the clergy have certain responsabilities and the biggest is that you should live as the word of God says that you should live. Leviticus 20:13, says that homosexuality is wrong. In 2 Timothy 4:2 says the time will come when false profits will rise and preach false doctorine because of their own desires. Matthew 19:18 says you shall not bear false witness. Romans 1:26-29 says that homosexuality is wrong, for those of you who will say we live by the new testiment. 1 Corinthians 9:14 says those who preach the word should live from the gospel! Now you can't really fight the word of God it's there read it for yourself!

Armor-1 »

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:15 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Look, God's Word says What are abominations. God's word tells what He made as Holy. The Office of clergy:Priests,Elders,Deacons, all have requirements, and responsibilities. Someone throwing fresh,hot, Dung in your priceless Silver Would make a lot of people upset. God killed people who desecrated What he set aside as Holy. To put an adulterer in Office would bring the congregation into a frenzy. To put an actier incharge of the churches nursery would cause outrage. The embezzeler that would make Judas Iscarot look like a chior boy discovered in the role of treasury officer would make some people very mad, plus call for the resignation of those who hired the person and willingly let these people into the mentioned office. It is more an offense to put gays in clergy and ESPECIALLY Priest!!! The Counsel of Gays Needs to be Tossed out on it's rear!! The people who voted for allowing gays needs to be kicked out of church as well. This isn't merely an intollerance, this is the reverence and respect to ffice God established, plus the Curse God will have on those who lead the flock astray, or create stumbling blocks for the sheep. If it seems hard, it's just to bad. God created Hell initially for Lucier and the angels which followed. Set as the new home for those who rebell against God.
Those who know God's word, and continue in their sin, un repepntant and unwilling to change will have a place in Hell too. Like it says in the New Testament, "You are a liar, and the truth is not in you." "Many come, but few are Called." "Narrow is the gate into Heaven." The people still have a chance to repent, and to turn from evil. If they mean it, and break away, then Jesus will help them. So, atleast God's Grace works. But Turn now while you have breath, for tomorrow is not guaranteed to you.

Armor-1 »

Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:32 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Ok, perhaps I have fallen into a parallel dimension...
In my universe, the Bible has a savior known as Jesus the Christ. In his teachings in my universe, He tells people to turn from their sinful way. To repent, "Go, and sin no more"
He had apostles in my universe. They told that "ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD" "THE PENALTY OF SIN IS DEATH." To Believe Jesus as Lord and Savior. That almost a dozen things are considered abominations to God, among them is included Homosexuality. In my universe, the Bible has an Old Testament as well as the New Testament. Together they tell The "rules of conduct" as well as illustrate what happens when people turn from depending on Him. Among these things are rules and qualifications for the office of clergy located in the book of Leviticus. Anyone who doesn't fit the bill, doesn't become clergy. The lie perpetuated in the last 12 to 16 years is that You are saved as you are, and you just cling to Jesus. Well, Satan did a good job at adding just enough truth in the sentence to entice you. That is why you have to study the Bible, and any doctrine has to be measured up to God's word.
In my universe, Jesus used a man whose name was Saul, Jesus renamed him Paul, and there was another outspoken Leader named Peter, an impulsive, but faithful follower of Jesus. They wrote the guidelines to follow for developing the Christian faith. I don't know what these people who allow Gays in clerical positions-worse yet as Pastor. They said any who introduce any message, be they Apostle, or angel, or what manner of man, to use God's word as a standard to compare it to, if it contradicts, then you toss it and who delivered the message. We are to develop a relationship with God.Jesus told us what God expects, that's why we were to turn from our old life, and cling to the truths of Christ. The office of Pastor and Elders and Deacons are HOLY positions. God killed a man who brought the wrong offering and incense into the Holy of Holies portion of the Temple. Those who cling to being an Adulterer,Thief,Liar,Sorcerer,Murderer,Homosexual,Angry person,etc, are all abominations to God. Such, is also viewed as wrong. We already had an Adulterer and Liar in the White house in Bill Clinton, The office of authority is to be revered, as the Bible from my Universe says the sanctuary of God is to be approached in reverence. Maybe these are omitted in this universe, but When God sets aside something as Holy- and a person discraces that position they are to be thrown out of office. and a person who says "I'm a Christian." and yet continues in doing those sins, and doesn't turn from it is as Jesus the Christ in My Universe says "You are a liar, and the Truth is not in you." "Go away, for I never knew you."

DannyPoo »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:23 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 1

<Jesus did not have to teach about homosexuality, it was not existent among his disciples. It crept into the church, probably due to lack of warning and teaching, so the good old Paul made a few things clear after the church grew. >

Incorrect, Jesus confined sexual relations to a male and female relationship.

When the Pharisees questioned Jesus about divorce, Jesus took the time to DEFINE marriage.

"Jesus replied. "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.''For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." Mark 10:5-8

All of us know that according to Scripture, sexual activity is only considered moral within the confines of Marriage. Jesus took the time to specify what Gender was to go with what other Gender within marrage.

Therefore, Jesus eliminated the possibility of Homosexuality to be acceptable in a sexual relationship.

Another example of this would be if I said:
If you want to play in the NBA you have to use basketballs.

In my statement, while I didnt specifically exclude footballs, we can easily and contextually conclude that I am allowing only the inclusion of basketballs in the NBA.

Jesus limited Marriage to a male and female in this fashion.

dannycontramundo »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:04 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

jimmywitz,
Jesus didn't talk extensively about every issue of morality. He didn't talk about child rape, canablism, beastiality, drunkeness, or many other things that the bible as a whole calls "sin" and "abominations." Surely you are not saying that poverty, wars and sickness are important but moral conduct is not. Bigger question is did Jesus uphold the standard of sexual morality. The answer is yes. Infact he was much stricter in his interpretation of sexual morality. It is false to believe that jesus cares about social issues but not social morality. Jesus loves sinners enough to confront them with thier sin. jesus loves sinners enough to warn them that thier behavior has eternal consequences. Letting homosexuals think that everything is ok is not loving. On judgement day, its not the christians who send homosexuals (and all other unrepentant people) to hell, it is Jesus himself( Rev 22:15). So, yeah, i think he cares.

robinhooud »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Whose words, ah, the apostle Paul's: "Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
Actually, not only homosexuals are warned.
Jesus did not have to teach about homosexuality, it was not existent among his disciples. It crept into the church, probably due to lack of warning and teaching, so the good old Paul made a few things clear after the church grew.

crossfire »

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

Well said, jimmywitz. Well said!

jimmywitz »

Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:27 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 5

It is remarkable how much attention the gay issue raises amongst Christians today.
This world is full of war, hatred, killing, poverty, illness and now climatic disaster. But the issue of whether someone loves someone else of the same sex constantly takes center-stage in the Christian psyche.
I cannot interpret for you what Jesus taught: that is between you and your Creator.
But iI am very sure what I have learned from his teachings. He teaches me to show kindness and compassion to others, take care of the poor and the sick, and to be vigilant against self-righteousness and hypocrisy in myself.
Strangely enough, Jesus taught me nothing on the subject of homosexuality. You may think that was merely an oversight on his part. For myself, I am sure that if Jesus felt that it was important, he would have mentioned it.

GreatNW »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:03 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

The ELCA, like many of the old line churches, is desperate to regain membership and it's glory days. (I was raised in the Lutheran church during it's glory days) They are like the kid who was popular in High School but now finds no one really cares or even remembers them. They have latched on to the homosexual issue because they believe by doing so they will make the ELCA relevant to the cultural again and regain their lost popularity. They do not realize that all it does is continue it's slide in to cultural irrelevance. The vast majority of members of Lutheran churches stay home on Sunday morning. If you cannot be "relevant" to your own members, it is unlikely others will find you relevant. It is warning to all of us what happens when you seek to please man rather than God. That seems to be a problem in many churches in the US where being "successful" has replaced being faithful.

Praveen »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:09 am Agree: 7   Disagree: 1

I am surprised at the number of votes in support for the so called " chrisitan Gay leaders" during the so called resolution at ELCA annual meet . Any resolutions about leadership and matters related to the church must be made and passed guided by biblical framework and principle and not outside of it. By giving authority to man, the ELCA seems to have dethroned the authority of the scriptures and enthroned majority as the " king ". its indeed heartbreaking to see "the church" which is called to be the light and salt of the earth loosing its saltiness and groping in darkness for answers.

I am not a homo-basher neither I am in support for it. Homosexuality needs to be treated and not exalted. Every homosexual person needs to be helped, counselled and guided to 'return home' to natural function which God has created for sacred purpose. Discipline is a part of this restoration process.

da6383ma »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Did anyone look at CNN today in ref to the guy that walked into that Church in Missouri yesterday and killing 3 people to include the Pastor of that Service and injuring several others in the process?
Christianity not sending out too many mixed messages to the general population? Come on......Complicated Issue, definately, maybe its not suppose to be, though

JasonJeffery »

Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:59 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

dharris4662 you contratict youself. you tell us that we shouldn't follow any denomination teaching but then you tell us to follow these big ministries which are just as fallible in my opinion as these denominations. if you want to know the Lord you simply need to be filled with the Holy Spirit and read Gods Holy Word in the Bible and be equally accountable to other Spirit filled Christians who know the Lord personally, not some bigshot tv minister's teachings such as their latest '7-step plans to achieve xxx' etc.

imho »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:41 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

Why do people who clearly disagree with the Word and ways of God insist on wanting to preach it? Why do they want to belong to Christ if they refuse to listen to Him?

Does this mean it's okay for straight pastors to fornicate, too?

dharris4662 »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:14 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

And Jesus Wept. This is just another example of why Jesus did not teach to follow a denomination. He said come and follow after me. Not come and follow after the catholics, lutherans, baptist or any denomination. I think that the church needs a big wake up call and that means that bible believing Christians need to say to these denominations and Religious people enough. The key is to get a Relationship with Christ first and get out of the Religiousity that is distroying Gods people. Remember the scripture my people are destroyed for lack of knowlege. Knowlege and wisdom come from one source the holy spirit and that relationship can only be formed through prayer, fasting and spending time with God and Learning how to hear his voice. if you wonder how do i do that seek out some ministries Joyce Myers, John bravere of Messenger international, Greg Laurie, International House of Prayer, God TV, Kim Clament, etc. God is shaking his church and he is coming back for a bride without spot or wrinkle. People Get Ready Jesus is coming and soon very soon we will be going home. Where will you be at that zenith hour. (Driven by Eternity, by John Bravere) Read it, it is life changing

rolln4him »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:17 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 3

Another denomination hijacked by the homosexual invasion. Even the elect will be deceived. The homosexual leaders a decade ago said they will infiltrate the homes, schools and churches of our nation and so far they are fulfilling their promise. Too bad the Church (in this case the ELCA) couldn't be as passionate about fighting against this infiltration.

dgnymn »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:36 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 1

Tjhis message is very CLEAR, believers!!! And the response is equally CLEAR. "Come out from among them, saith the Lord! Be ye holy, as I am holy!""

Consider what Jesus taught - "Go and Sin No More." Consider the Apostle Paul, who taught that believers should not only correct this behavior, but turn the disobedient over to Satan that their souls may be saved, if that.

What would Martin Luther have said? We are sure that his studies in the Book of Romans and other New Testament books would have had him calling for the ouster of these "committed in same sex relationships." What nonsense!! What politically correct theology!! What bunk and trash!!!

Let's call it what it is - these shepherds of the flock are engaged in deviant and dangerous sin and need to repent, and they also need to be removed from their positions - NOW, before they poison the rest. Do you not remember the teaching - "A little leaven spoils the entire lump?" Sin is sin, and those who voted to not punish or discipline these "leaders" who are practicing homosexuality are themselves just as guilty for approving it (re: Romans Chapter 1)

God help us. The leadership of ECLA needs to repent in sackcloth and ashes and pray for God's mercy and the forgiveness of their sins. There's no other choice. Those who leave need to leave and watch the denomination lose everything - credibility, viability, and God's presence among them!!!

robbie »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:06 pm Agree: 11   Disagree: 1

Modern thinkers today believe they can create a god in their own image, according to their opinions and preferences. They will not accept the fact that there is a God who exists, indepenent of themselves and human thought, who is in control. His Word is Truth. His Word NEVER CHANGES. What was sin thousands of years ago IS STILL SIN TODAY. Homosexuality is sin and those who defy God's laws will face His judgement. God is merciful but He is also just and those who lead His flock have a special place before His judgement seat.

robinhooud »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:26 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

There goes another denomination. As an old preacher said, our attitude must be one of clinging to the Lord. If we don't draw near to Him, we are likely to fall back on the world.

gomfam »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:46 am Agree: 9   Disagree: 0

There’s just one question here: are pastors (or anyone in the church, for that matter) who are in “faithful committed same-gender relationships” being faithful to the Lord and the teachings of Scripture? I think not. Here’s a word for the ELCA leadership: “You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!” (Matt 23:24)

GreatNW »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:55 am Agree: 7   Disagree: 0

This is not "news". Our family left the ELCA five years ago. It was obvious they wanted to move in this direction and the only thing that slowed them down has been worrying about a church split. We got tired of waiting around for one of the confessional movements to break off so we left. I can only hope that this is a clear siginal that the battle is lost and movements like CORE or Word Alone need to break away.

da6383ma »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:41 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

Ya know,...the main-stream population of this Country is so hung up in their careers, what is going on in their social-near immediate space not speaking for all but,...alot of people here in America,....Its scary to me to think that the Good Lord is gonna seriously rattle some cages in our immediate future this includes me also,...so don`t think that I think I`m better by this input...Over-population,...Rationalization,....Litigation,....Political Correctness,....where do you wanna start? Scary.......

RBB »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:25 am Agree: 9   Disagree: 2

The Israelites too tried to have their cake and eat it too. They worshipped God in the way He told them to, but only after a fashion, only to a certain point, and in the way they wanted, ignoring what He said in favor of what they thought was right. Sounds familiar. Try 2 Chronicles 36:14-20

"14 Moreover all the leaders of the priests and the people transgressed more and more, according to all the abominations of the nations, and defiled the house of the LORD which He had consecrated in Jerusalem.
15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. 16 But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
17 Therefore He brought against them the king of the Chaldeans, who killed their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, on the aged or the weak; He gave them all into his hand. 18 And all the articles from the house of God, great and small, the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his leaders, all these he took to Babylon. 19 Then they burned the house of God, broke down the wall of Jerusalem, burned all its palaces with fire, and destroyed all its precious possessions. 20 And those who escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon, where they became servants to him and his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia."

God has made it plain before what he will do to those - especially the shepherds of His flock - who chose to ignore what He has said, and do what "feels right," or" fair", or "what's good by the standards of the world we live in."

Doing things this way, paying lip service to the Lord God by not lifting the ban, but choosing to not enforce the ban, which in essence lifts the ban, doesn't fool God anymore than the Israelites worship did.

Ammon86 »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:51 am Agree: 7   Disagree: 1

I fully agree with Rev. Chavez. It makes me wonder why so many denominations are pushing such unbiblical agenda, when everyone can see what is happening to liberal churches such as Episcopal Church or Presbyterian Church (USA) doing so - permanent decline in both membership and congregations number, as well as in church attendance... These organizations (i have doubts in we should still call them Churches) are "bad trees" which bears "bad fruits", and as such they are doomed:
Mt 7:15-20
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Wiz »

Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:51 am Agree: 9   Disagree: 2

I truly cannot understand this nonsense. If you read Romans, God clearly did not advocate unclean acts between men or women for that matter. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by the wrath of God when homosexuality had run rampant. He promised Noah he would not punish man by destruction again. Has man become so vain that he believes he knows better than his Creator what is acceptable? Do people honestly believe they can contaminate innocent people with their filth and be given a credential to do so? I truly don't understand.