The married duo pastoring one of the nation's biggest churches is planning for divorce.
-
(Photo: Paula White Ministries / File)Paula White shares on wealth God's way as a keynote speaker for the Learning Annex Real Estate & Wealth Expo in Atlanta Feb. 24-25, 2007.
Randy and Paula White of Without Walls International in Tampa, Fla., announced their decision to split at their Thursday evening service, shocking most congregants and bringing some to tears.
"It's the most difficult decision I've ever had to make in my entire life," Randy White told the congregation with Paula by his side at the podium appearing choked up, according to Tampa Bay Online.
Married nearly 18 years, the Whites, who have both been married and divorced before, said in interviews that the split is amicable. They also mentioned that the divorce comes after years of visits to counselors.
Trouble in the couple's marriage was picked up by The Tampa Tribune in May as the two were rarely seen preaching together anymore.
Both blamed the two different directions their lives are going.
Paula, 41, the church's senior pastor, leads her own ministry, making frequent trips as a sought-after speaker, author and televangelist. She leads monthly services at her newly opened Life by Design Empowerment Center in New York, appears regularly on "The Tyra Banks Show" as a life coach and serves as oversight pastor at Family Praise Center in San Antonio, Texas.
Meanwhile, Randy, 49, has been traveling to Malibu, Calif., where he plans to start another church, he told his Tampa congregation. He already signed a one-year lease on a beachfront dwelling there but plans for the new church are on hold, according to TBO.
Randy White will remain at Without Walls as senior pastor and Paula will remain based in Tampa and pledged to return frequently to preach.
Some congregants said the surprising announcement won't deter their continual attendance.
The announcement "didn't weaken the church in any way," said Kerran Fuller, who has been attending the church for less than a year, according to the TBO.
Still, Randy predicts attendance at the 23,000-member church "will take a hit" and finances will also be affected. Paula White Ministries brings in about $50,000 to $80,000 a week, said Randy.
Critics have raised questions over the Whites' financial wealth with church revenues at nearly $40 million last year and a $22 million debt, according to Without Walls church board member Alick Clark of Action, Calif. The couple has a Bayshore Boulevard home with an assessed value of $2.22 million, a New York condo valued at about $3.5 million and a private jet, as reported by TBO.
Randy said most of the couple's personal income reportedly comes from private businesses, including a real estate company and sales in books and other resources to the church, according to The Tampa Tribune.
Some have left the church when the couple's theology "stopped lining up biblically," said former staff member Larry DeLaRosa.
The Whites preach a prosperity message. Critics say their message of prosperity were at the expense of humility and family values.
"Too many ministries have become big business. That message is desecrating the church today," Clarke said, according to TBO.
The Whites have declined to say what the church pays them but say the church now supports more than 90 missions and in-house and community outreach programs.
"What they've done for this community, people have no idea," Tampa physician Sydel LeGrande told the local Tribune.
"I know they're not perfect. I've heard some of the things said around town, and some of it is probably true, but this much I know: God has placed a tremendous call on their lives. It requires a lot of them," said LeGrande, also a congregant at Without Walls, known as the perfect church for people who aren’t, for a dozen years. Continue >>
RSS
My (Pastors) Wife abandoned me 3 years ago for a handsome millionaire. On the day that she returns, repents and surrenders her life unconditionally to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, is the day I rejoice in her return. Until that day, I continue to remain faithful to her (and will continue until I stand before Him). The thought of divorcement horrifies me. It is unfathomable for me to imagine living a life utterly surrendered unto the bond-service of our precious Lord, and so much as fathom such an act as relational abandonment. There is no greater loss possible in this life, than to lose a Loved one to indifference. There is no greater demonstration of Lovelessness, than divorce.
These people are going thru a rough time right now. They are people too you know. Why would any true christian want to attack them. This is the time to stand with them, pray for them and help them heal. RANDY JUST BURIED HIS DAUGHTER.. I'm sure that he is heart broken. Please let's remember that even if the one you looked up to falls they are only human. Lets pick them up in prayer. I don't think Jesus would say "OH u fell down let me step on you". Just because they are well known doesn't mean that they don't have faults. We are not supposed to put ANYONE higher than God. Even when they preach or teach the bible. That's why so many are troubled that this happened. They put Randy and Paula higher than God and they fell. Godly people don't fall or have trouble do they? The devil can attack ANYONE. Some of these comments are just attacks. We all know where these kinda thoughts come from. STOP giving the devil room to grow. Let's pray not hinder!!!!!!!!
I have been reading the posts on the "divorce" stories on this website for the past two days. I now understand why so many in this world hate the church. I have not been to church for two years because of people like you. It has been wonderful, I see God leading my life like He never could before. Anyone can throw out scripture and try to sound intelligent, but where is the Christlike attitude that people can actually respect? I stayed in a bad marriage for too long because I listened to ignorant people who insisted that if I was more submissive my marriage would improve. He never cheated on me, so should I still be with him? How many women are murdered by their husbands because no one supports them, and they have no one to turn to? It's time to stop judging the women in the church for being brave enough to take care of themselves and their children. These women need support and compassion, not judgement. I was lucky enough to have people support me with the hardest decision I ever made (unfortunately it wasn't my church). Believe me, no one ends a marriage without a lot of thought and prayer.
Yes this is sad. However, I believe that this couple needs to take a back seat in a church and allow God to show them their ways. I know quite a few ministers (male and female) that go thru divorce and keep on in the pulpit. This should not be. But no one wants to speak out on what goes on behind closed doors. It's a wonder that our Heavenly Father hasn't covered the entire planet with vomit.
Yournotputtingmedown-
I am sorry you were mentally scarred by this. I am also very certain that you are exaggerating which people often do to make their situation seem worse. As for extorting your children, perhaps he had a better job and could better care for them. That is more or less what a judge is looking for. And as for your "Oh the church needs women to be the scapegoats for men" theory, how did you draw this from your encounter? Are you saying that the Church is evil? Are you still in it? Maybe you were trespassed, but that is no need to mark the whole church as a chovenistic, male-tyranny corporation. There are numerous spots in the church for women. Nuns are great blessings. They help children learn, they do great acts of service and prayer. It takes a special woman to be a nun. Please do not just steryotype the Church as a male-run, no place for women church. The church is human. It has its flaws.
I do not condone divorce. I do believe that God sanctified the family unit. Several of you are quick to point out the scripture 1Cor 7:10. Since God is no respector of persons,
Will the man also stay to himself and not be with another woman?
I went through a divorce in 2000. The man has married not one, but two women since me.
I have been with not one single person in anyway. While we were married, this man had manipulated a pastor to get him to speak a word to control me from the pulpit (after the service he told me to "obey God"), he lied about my daughter, among other mind manipulations. And 5 years later after the divorce, he extorted my daughter and son-in-law to get back at me. When I tried to visit this church we were originally married in, a Sunday school teacher was quick to point out he had never been betrayed by his wife leaving him (infront of the church). I'm sure that they didn't make him a public example by showing his being married twice after me was committing adultery (to punish him). I guess they wanted to see bruises and blood (which is what would have happened, and yes, even a pastor told me that) It seems to me that the church which is supposed to stand up for what is right, stood up and defended the wrong. People, you must quit using women to cover up the wrongs of the men, or the administration of the church. I am tired of being the fall guy because church leaders think that if they keep the women in line, everything will be allright. Do you know how many women are out there who want to come to church and be a part of, but cannot because order in the church is amiss at this time? And no, we don't want your men. We just want to love and worship God.
I want to love and support what is right in the church of God, according to His word.
Will you let me?
Tired of the ostracization,
Kim
testing
Does this really come as a surprise to anyone? Paula and Randy White are human beings just like the rest of us. I'm sorry to hear that they have had troubles. On the other hand, I'm not surprised at all. The article even states they've been to counseling many times. Is their hope in God or in the wisdom of men? Secondly, what about covetousness? Paula is obviously materialistic, and Randy isn't exactly hiding it with his 'beachfront Church.' Paula and Randy White are among many popular liberal preachers, who have no intention on truly following the Word or the Will of God.
"1 Cor 7:10 - 11 (NKJV) 10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. "
According to the Word of God, if Paula White divorces, she should remain single. So, we will see what happens.
I am so sad to hear about this... My heart goes out to the White's. I have enjoyed Paula's preaching for years and am dismayed at this news. Well The BIBLE does say that the LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL!! and there are so many mega churches now..Which is why I do not attend church any longer. I have my personal relationship with God and read my bible daily for my guidance. But it is all biblical so every day time is getting shorter and prophesy is fulfilling itself.. I am not here to jude because I have been through many of those valleys myself..God is always in control and uses our choices to either make us or break us but he is always with us and wants the best for us.
I am currently in a marriage that is not always to my liking should I just walk away? Randy and Paula are supposed to be shining examples of our faith, is this what they are showing or is it "all about what they want"? What sets them apart fromthe way the world lives? Actions speak louder than words!!! Apparently they think they need to be free to see other people. Does God care more about their ministry or about their families? When I stand in front of God I don't think he is going to be as cocerned with my ministry as he is with how Ied my family!
The folks in the Church has to have the boldness and tell both of them to step down and look for someone who has calling. Let these people do not make you fool .
compassion is to be given where needed but not for both of them as they do not need it, it is their ego and Church fellows, you have been foooled by them till now. Get to the bible and walk with God, not with these guys ... anyone who stands in the way of supporting their break be cursed.
We are NOT under the Law but under grace. So what did Jesus, (grace) say about divorce?
Matt 5:31 - 32 (NKJV) 31“Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except £sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
Mark 10:2 - 9 (NKJV) 2The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him. 3And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” 4They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.” 5And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’£ 7‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8and the two shall become one flesh’;£ so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
What does the New Testament (testament of grace) say.
1 Cor 7:10 - 11 (NKJV) 10Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
I am very concerned that when one in leadership justifies their actions which the Bible clearly states is wrong, many other Christians will do the same in their marriage. I had heard that the divorce rate among Christians was equal to non-Christians but until recently I did not believe it. How could Christians, who know what God has said on this issue, divorce without Biblical cause of infidelity or non-believing spouse?
It would seem we are taking a path that Israel took in justifying their sins and still claiming God's blessings. I do pray for her marriage but mainly that God will bring them out of spiritual deception. Anything that justifies what the Bible clearly says is wrong is deception.
This is truly a sad event in the Body of Christ. It is unfortunate that these things happen more than we would like to admit. My prayers go out to Paula and Randy. As Christians we should guard ourselves against throwing stones at them. We all will have to give an account for our actions to the Lord Himself one day. I have enough logs in my own eyes I don't have a right to be focusing on the planks in the eyes of my brother and sister.
hello people....
i see this as another opportunity for us to focus as a people and as a body on what is real. What is the difference between news and information? Our lives demand more and it is time to ask these questions, what is sin? what is in the mind of God concerning sin/wrong? Is evil stronger than good? what is God going to reward at the end of time - preaching the word alone or making profit in every area of our lives by engaging the word, i.e. our habits, likes, self control etc?
You see, every word of God in our lives demand a responsibility on us to take charge and see to it that we make profit on the strength of that word.
People lets not celebrate their mistake. Let is gather around them in love. Love always win...i have come to know that.......
WARNING: BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS! The only remedy for this couple if for them to REPENT and LOVE GOD. Jesus says IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS! Apparently by their behavior they do not love God, but rather their careers and their positions as pastors. How sad this must be to the heart of our Loving Savior!
The whole situation reminds me of Romans 3:22-23, where Paul says "You say you're following God's law but you're not and God's name is being blasphemed among the Gentiles because of it".
Well, Randy and Paula, you say you're following God's word (or maybe you don't even care at this point), but you're not and God's name is being blasphemed among the unsaved because of it.
The fact that it's Unbiblical for a woman to be pastor aside, why doesn't their church love them enough (not to mention, why doesn't their church love God's word enough) to discipline them?
Not one word from the church about discipline or asking them to step down until they repent and can be Biblically restored to a right relationship with God and, judging from their comments, this certainly seems to be the last thing on their minds.
Welcome to Laidicea, folks.
If the Whites had the same passion for their marriage as they have for making money, their marriage would be the model for Christianity. Divorce does not just happen, it takes planning, pride, planning, lying, planning, time, planning, patience, planning, disregard for the Word of God, planning, and finally a break in their relationship with God. Restoration takes repentance, repentance, repentance, not excuses or justification for their divorce or the sins leading up to it.
If the Whites think that a "call" into ministry, regardless of the office they serve in, comes before the vows of marriage they are WRONG! There are only 2 vows that are required by the Lord: #1 - a vow to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior; and #2 - a vow in marriage. There is nothing that comes before these vows. Ecclesiastes 5:4 says, do not make a vow to God and break it; do not say that you made a mistake (paraphrased).
There are so many people writing that they forgive the Whites, but there is nothing to forgive them for until they have repented to the Lord. Repent before the devil steals, kills, and destroys everything else in their lives. If they do divorce, then step down from ministry because they are fit and they certainly are not anointed by God to lead His people.
WWIC is not “theirs” because it belongs to God. God said He would build HIS church, not theirs. Step down from ministry for a season (God has 7,000 more to take your place). Step out of the world’s system and back into God’s system. Go back to what got them there, faith, obedience, and the love of God.
Maybe if they go to www.wclandtm.com and click on "How's your marriage doing" they might realize that it is not too late.
To God be the glory,
Pastor Leo
They both still have their first love: money.
USA christianity is putting Christ to shame with their worldly and sinful lives.Why cant those who profess Christ live according to the teachings of the Bible?If you can't live for Christ, forget about following Him. Please don't put on a mask!!
American Gospel Christianity is sicking to no end. Can cause one/many to stumble with matters of faith, to not have any at all. May God bring Judgement to the USA. We have bastardized The Truth of Your Word and taken for granted Your Daily Mercies to justify our sinfulness.
Are they divorcing thought on Biblical grounds? That is infidelity, i.e. adultery. Now this could mean adultery in the sense of sleeping with another person not their spouse, or it could be adultery against the spirit, i.e. departing from the teachings of God.
Sorry...there are no "adultery against the spirit" in the Bible. This couple has no "grounds" for a divorce. It is sin pure and simple. Their church and the community of Christ will take a hit because of their sin.
1. It’s Unbiblical for a Woman to be a Pastor….. period point blank (I Corinthians 14:34-35).
2. There are only two grounds for a Christian to divorce. New Testament explicitly makes both sexual infidelity and desertion by an unbeliever grounds for a Christian's divorce and remarriage. Calean007: “adultery against the spirit, i.e. departing from the teachings of God. Word Faith type churches inevitably go the route of "name it and claim it" type stuff.” The Biblical text concerning divorce says nothing of adultery against the spirit. I’m not too sure where or what passages speaks of this…….
3. Much of Paula Whites teachings are unbiblical and straight out wrong. Prosperity message dominates most of her teachings.
4. True Biblical Pastors lives are/should be transparent…..in all areas…..including income.
5. Kikoman: “The last time I saw her on TV, she was talking about how much she was in love with her husband and how thankful she was to have him at home waiting for her. She was on with a black couple - he was some kind of sports star. It was a month ago. Was she lying?” Yes she was lying…….. they’ve been getting counseling for sometime….so she says……who knows if she’s lying about that too.
6. It’s really sad and very disappointing that many Christians are not studying the Word of God on their own, rather just listening and taking/believing everything the pastor says that its true.
The last time I saw her on TV, she was talking about how much she was in love with her husband and how thankful she was to have him at home waiting for her. She was on with a black couple - he was some kind of sports star. It was a month ago. Was she lying?
Oh man...just another opportunity for the watching world to take shots at the Body of Christ for not living out what we SAY we believe!!! God help us!!!
I have watched Paula White in TV. She was such a passionate speaker and preacher of the gospel I can't believe this is happening... just praying for them..
Sorry third paragraph should read "God does the things that you are giving your female pastor credit for".
calean007 - I'm sure you're aware of the passages in I Corinthians 14:34-35 "The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church", and 1Timothy 2:12 "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet". In what possible way is it scripture twisting to say that women should not be pastors? It's there as plainly as can possibly can be stated. Can you please explain in what way I am twisting the scripture in saying that these passages say women should not be pastors.
Apart from these passages we have the fact that women were not allowed to be priests (or even past the court of the women), women were not called as apostles, women are not listed in the qualifications for deacons and overseers (bishops). Where would you get the impression that it's biblically acceptable for women to be pastors?
God does the things that you are giving your female pastor for. He brings people to Himself, He heals, He delivers junkies....just because He has chosen to do these things while you are allowing a woman to be at the helm of your church means nothing. God is doing these things all over the world... in many curcomtances where people are disobeying His commandments.
In Mark 16:15 and Matthew 28:19 Jesus says to the 11 remaining Apostles to go into the world and preach the word. And and even if you are referring to another passage...there is a very big difference between witnessing to someone, which is what preaching the gospel is here, and the position of being the pastoral leader of a church.
Anniefourjesus: I do have love for nijjhar. I did not post to condemn him but merely posted that which he himself posted in another thread. The put the spotlight on himself. Also yes I have actually read his website. The stage in his search is based upon salvation through knowledge (gnostic) via splashes of skihism thrown in. He belives in all achieving peace and love but through our own means and not by something Divine like Christ. My intent in posting about his post in seeing nothing wrong with the KKK was merely to show the viewpoint he was coming from. Perhaps in hindsight in reading my post it was a bit harsh but at the same time I am interested in helping him along his path. We are all called to do that...
RBB - About women preachers, it is most certainly not biblical that women are not allowed to preach. You are twisting the writings of Paul. The Bible says for us ALL to PREACH THE WORD. All includes both sexes. As a man, I have a female pastor and let me tell you that in our small 25 member church, I have seen people healed, led to Christ, junkies delivered et al and with a woman at the helm of the church.
Are they divorcing thought on Biblical grounds? That is infidelity, i.e. adultery. Now this could mean adultery in the sense of sleeping with another person not their spouse, or it could be adultery against the spirit, i.e. departing from the teachings of God. Word Faith type churches inevitably go the route of "name it and claim it" type stuff. They are no different than the Tiltons of the 80's it seems. But if they are divorcing simply because "their lives are going different directions" then they are committing a sin according to the Bible. I cannot believe that people are so blinded by this type of stuff happening in front on their faces. This tells me that some people at their "church" aren't well grounded in scripture. Also with Word Faith teachers, there is a groupie mentality going on and less reading and true prayer.
Baptist strategist Stith says, "Our task is to proclaim the power of the risen Christ to set all men free," he stated. "We must be clear that this freedom includes freedom from the power of sin as well as from the penalty of sin. But John David Hicks, Evangelist assesses,"God can forgive sin, but He does not remove the consequences of the sin. The results and the scars remain."
My two cents worth. A person is free (forgiven) from power of say, excessive drinking (sin) but God does NOT necessarily remove the consequences of it (sin), in this case weakened unhealthy liver, a weak example. Rewards of living for God ( sinning less|growing in virtue) are degreed 1Corth. 3:13-17
IMO, Holy Scripture will not support a distinction between sins and bad works. Bad works are unequivocally understood as sin in the Holy Scripture, while good works are virtues that stem from avoiding sin. How can God's favor without satisfying His justice continue on them committing deliberate (sin) of divorce? Eternity will only tell by Fire.
nijjhar - Ahh...I hadn't realized. I had assumed that you were Hindu or some other religion (as in other than Christian). I hadn't realized that you had your own little religion going in your head. Have a nice day.
In case people forgot ! WE NEED RELIGION* Websters definition -1a: the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> 1b: the service and worship of God or the supernatural commitment or devotion to religious faith (in JC) or observance 2a: personal (in this case JC) set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices. Truly a very sad day in Christendom, despite the so called MEGA GROWTH = (assuming) GODS FAVOR.
*James 1:26-27 This reminds me of St James 1:26-27
1:26. And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue but deceiving his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
1:27. Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation and to keep one's self unspotted from this world. btw, when was the last time local churches went out to neighbors that may need any help? as an ordinary act of love as Christ would, not on some ministry task force to convert ? may my preaching been shown than just heard.
The Lord said, that we would be known by the love that we have for one another. We are to "speak the truth in love" and condemning brothers and sisters who have fallen is not showing the love of Jesus. Jesus Christ did not practice "religion", HE had a personal relationship (and has) with the Father! That is what HE came to show, that HE was through His life, death and resurrection, restoring our relationship back to our Father.
God wants the best for all HIS Children, it is not something we should be seeking, we are to seek FIRST the Kingdom of God and HIS righteousness, and "all these things will be added unto you." The Father knows that we have needs (and wants) in this world, and HE is our Jehovah-Jireh (God provides). He opens HIS hands, and satisifies the desires of every living thing. Even those who do not recognize God, it all comes from HIS hand whether they acknowledge Him or not! HE is a most kind and loving God, sin has been dealt with in Jesus Christ, man has only to accept and believe in what God has already done. It is a gift from God, and if you do not accept what Jesus had already done, then the WRATH of God remains on you. Those are God's Words, not any mans!
Father God, I pray that You will bring healing and restoration to the White's and their family and all those who are ministered to by them. LOOK to the LORD, people, places and things are NOT God, and they will let you down, they will fail you., but GOD HE never does any of those things!
Thank you Papa God for Your love and grace, in Jesus Name Amen! GLORY TO YOU LORD!
Let it also be known that nijjhar believes there is nothing wrong with the klu klux clan according to his post in other threads... Now you know his cult.
I am soooo tired of folks (mostly folks in ministry) using "touch not mine anointed and do my prophet no harm" as a basis for not speaking out against false prophets fleecing the sheep. Any believer that is filled with the Holy Spirit IS God's anointed and pastors/co-pastors should be mineful that God is not pleased with the watered-down gospel that is being preached to fill seats and pockets. If you are so concerned about souls, why do the need the title or Apostle, Bishop, Co-Pastor? What happened to missionary, church mother and altar worker? I guess they weren't glorious enought. The Apostles had jobs and traveled and preached the Gospel. They traveled in twos and last I checked their co-pastors were not women. We are out of order and I pray God continues to pull the cover off false ministries who claim to preach in His name (Jesus is never mentioned on Paula's website). She claims to be a life coach not a preacher.
A bishop should be blameless and tempered...let's see if some titles are removed in the body of Christ after this past week's events. They are undeserving of them. The gospel of Christ will not be put to shame for these folks actions, they don't know Jesus anyway or they would be fearful to sin in this manner. http://gcraige.blogspot.com/2007/08/jezebels-finest-hour.html
Hi,
RBB asked me my religion. My religion is the same as that of my Brother Christ Jesus. How many of you know what was the religion of Christ Jesus? I bet hardly any one meaning that most of you are spiritually blind and that is why sectarian riots. Christ Nanak was the Second coming of Christ Jesus may not sound well to most of you but it is TRUE.
Here is an article on IDEAL CHURCH that would give you clues where you have gone wrong:-
I D E A L C H U R C H
If Jesus were to return to-day, He would be very much surprised and upset to find so many of the denominations. In fact, these denominations are like the blind men describing an elephant. Royal High Priest (Christ) of God appeared to introduce to us the living God of Spirit through the Living Gospel, which is received only by those who are predestined by God e.g. the born-blind man of John 9, whose eyes Jesus opened with spittal. Jesus preached Gospel like a Sower and only those who were twice-born and, therefore, had ears to hear 'His Word', understood and sought from Him of their own accords.
Now, Jesus hired twelve Labourers..........
The twelve Labourers hired by Jesus were paid their wages, the "Holy Spirit", on Pentecost - Matt.20.8: ................Thus, the Labourers of Jesus who first founded the Church of God headed by Jesus sold all their belongings to share a perfect communal life but the limitations of Therefore, establish universal Churches of God in honour of Saints and let the outspoken Preachers of God help you to wash the filth of sins and blasphemies. The Preachers of God being predestined, they do not stand in the need of any ordination by men and it is only the deacons who require the ordination of men to whom they are to serve and to be responsible for their performances.
For details, visit my web site:-
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/church.htm
Yes it is a sad thing that Paula and Juanita have gone through these terrible things. They are really God-send with their messages of hope and faith. They also bring something else to my attention: they are HUMAN. We humans are subject to error, no matter how old we are. I think more Prosperity gospel preachers are "talked about" than prayed for, which is probably one of the reasons why they are "innocently" veering off-track when it comes to money. I go to a Prosperity-teaching church and the boundaries are tight there. My pastor tries to make sure that he makes things clear to the congregation by rightly separating money and faith. We're doing good because weekly, we hold prayer specifically for our pastor, so maybe other churches need to do that too.
Something in Scripture stated to Moses and reiterated in the New Testament is keeping to God's pattern. God has a pattern for the family, the church and for evangelizing the world before the Lord Jesus returns, and when we turn aside to other works then we err from the truth of the Word. Women can be anointed by God mightily, but she is to remain under her husband's headship, as prescribed by God Himself. Men are held to a high accountablility for their marriages and homes, so for the sake of receiving God's blessings, we need to keep God's ways before us. Wives submit to your husbands in the Lord. Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for it. Children obey your parents for this is right. What is so very difficult about this? Husband and wife are equal partners, but the buck stops with hubby. Wives should not have authority or headship over their husbands no matter what her anointing is. Eve was decieved, Adam blatantly disobeyed God because he listened to his wife contrary to what God had already told him. Anything with two heads is a freak, so God gave the men headship in the home, church and ministry. But let's not ignore that God also annoints women with great gifts for the purpose of winning the lost to Christ just like the men!
JVelez - "I might be guessing here but I believe that he saw the anointing that Paula has in preaching the word (lets just assume this for arguments sake) and stood out of the way."
Then he would be seeing an annointing that didn't exist. How can someone be said to have recieved an annointing when the scripture makes it plain that she would never have recieved one? The error has been compounded in that he has not only allowed his wife to become what the scripture says she is not to be, but he has also allowed her to take the role of authority which makes the problem even worse and more unscriptural. Which seems to be something we both agree on.
I'm afraid that those who are taken in by this kind of thing, the prosperity gospel, have no idea that they aren't being preached the real gospel. They have no way of knowing they are standing on sand. All they can see is that God is going to give them a great life and then they go to heaven and have a greater eternity. The true gospel is left out. That it didn't weaken the church in anyway, is troubling, you're right. It proves that the members have no idea that what they have been taught is wrong.
WOW...WOW...WOW...what can anyone say but WOW!!! I tell you does this surprise me...NO...this is a good example of what fame and REPUTATION can do to man. It is funny reading this how they are so busy and go separate directions...you wonder what God had for THEM and they seemed have missed it. I always go back to Joyce and Dave Meyers...you can surely see the difference...they work together, each in their giftings and callings from God. It appears the Whites missed their cue from the Lord to what direction they AND I DO MEAN THEY, were to take together. Funny how he said he was going to take full responsibility for the separation, that's nice Randy but God holds everyone in the party accountable. Paula is gifted, wonderful, and very high energy, also I see her TOO wide spread and is trying to please everyone and do everything...my my my what stronghold is showing its ugly head here? Well, both will survive and make it on their own...they certainly have the resources to make it happen...so God is the judge and we just examine the fruit, and watch. BUT above all pray that the Lord's Will be done in their lives, and anyone one that would be hurt by this fallout would be restored back to where the Lord intended them to be.
Being raised from CatholicTraditional Christian background to a Pentecoastal Evangelical/Fundamental contemporary to now a NON Affiliate seeing years of divisions lust pride greed using Beliefs In The Name Of Jesus Christ. I am a lot more sympathetic to a "so called unsaved non believer's legitimate GRIPES of those that hold CLAIM TO THE INSIDE TRACK OF KNOWING JESUS CHRIST & HOLY SCRIPTURE. The American Church is NOT exactly what Jesus Christ had in mind IMO. Very sad day in Christendom, despite the so called MEGA GROWTH = GODS FAVOR.
We must be very careful what we let come out of our mouths and we must SPEAK LIFE and not death over our brothers and sisters in Christ. No matter how we feel about this situation God is still in control of everything. God says " Touch not my anointed and do my Prophet on harm". We must PRAY and not continue to agree with what Satan is trying to do in all of our lives as CHRISTIANS. "Judge not lest you be judged." My heart is broke because of this situation as well as the Wanita Bynum situation however as a women of God being choosen to preach the word of God as a Co-Pastor with my husband, I must continue to keep my eyes on God and not what is going on around me and pray without ceasing. All I know at the end of the day is nothing is impossible with God and Satan is defeated. As far as wealth God says " I will give you the power to get wealth." We can have it all as Christians, ministry, money, marriage, good health, ect as long as we "Lean not to our own understanding and He shall direct our paths." Let the Holy Spirit be our guide and mouthpiece.
RBB--
In terms of pastoral duty, If Randy was the head pastor of the church, while Paula (being the wife) was co-pastor, I wouldnt have a problem with that. I think the issue with Mr. White (Im just guessing here) is two fold.
1st- I might be guessing here but I believe that he saw the anointing that Paula has in preaching the word (lets just assume this for arguments sake) and stood out of the way.That might be noble but he did not apply the structure that God gave us in terms of marriage roles and responsibilities. If he stood back and allowed his wife to be the "head pastor" right there leads to trouble. Couple that with the order of priorities that they both had INDIVIDUALLY and not as a SINGLE UNIT, and it's sad to say that it wouldnt last.
In terms of "Prosperity Preaching" RBB, I see that as a thing that Christians can debate, but shouldnt divide over. Now if the message is just outright "get rich quick" and not talking enough about the true kingdom, it lies in sand and people will see that. For me, to see that this news "didnt weaken the church in anyway" is a little troubling..
nijjhar - It occurred to me this morning that part of the reason there is so much persecution and violence against Christians in India is because they have such a complete misunderstanding of what we believe and preach, just as you do.
You seem to either be completely unaware of what Christianity is, or purposely interposing your own beliefs into them, to make up a version of your own. What religion do you consider yourself to be?
JVelez - I too believe that those who are called to lead people to Christ should be respected. My first problem would be that since this is a woman, and the scripture speaks strictly against woman being pastors, she couldn't possibly have that calling.
My second problem would be..are they really leading people to Jesus? The gospel they are preaching is as incorrect as say, the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormons. But, while the Witness and Mormons may be preaching against things like the Trinity, these pastors are perverting the gospel by preaching "the world" not Christianity. The gospel of Christ isn't that God wants us to be rich and happy in this life. To tell people that, isn't to lead them to Christ, it's to lead them to a combination of Santa and Aladdin's Genie. Not to mention giving them false hope of riches, and no problems in this world.
As to the prosperity gospel not being part of the divorce. It's just another example of their ignoring the gospel of the Bible in favor of the worldly gospel they preach. So in a way it is. Scripture makes it plain that divorce is not acceptable, and to do it, especially after already doing it before, is another example of their failing to adhere to the gospel of scripture.
Hi,
You need holy spirit to lead your spiritual life. Holy spirit is common sense and Holy Spirit of God is extra ordinary Sense.
How these people became rich in Mammon working for God that is Mammon Free? Becoming rich in the name of God is called turning stones, Simple-minded people into bread and butter as these two have done. I bet these two have no clue in whose name John baptised men only in water? Never mind knowing Christ Jesus?
The Tares are bundled up in Israel for Final Burning and people are getting fleeced left and right.
What a crying shame this is. It's either me, myself and I or it's Jesus Christ in me.
Galatians 2:20 (NKJV)
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Wake up church, quit rolling over and hitting the snooze button. Get sold out to Jesus...remember this:
Matthew 7:21 (NKJV)
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
God help us!
test
RBB- I think that anyone that are truly called to lead people to Jesus should be respected. I am not a fan of "prospeirty gospel" although I do believe God commanded us to be good stewards of what He gives us. But to be real with you RBB, I dont see the "money gospel" part relevant to their divorce. I think that God gave us a structure of what the marriage should be and they did not follow it. Another aspect is the fact that people have their priorities mixed up. Some people think that their relationship to God and their ministry should be in the same category. I believe that this is one of the main problems in christian marriages. No doubt that their relationship with God should be tops, but coupling that with a ministry or calling is dangerous. Me personally I put God first, my family second and the ministry third. When the article says that both were headed in different directions, that is because of their priorities. Mr. White needed to take the role as the head of the household and I dont think that he did that.
JVelez - I agree wholeheartedly with your post, but have to ask.... why do you respect the Whites?
"Hot4Paula's" comment is a perfect example showing some of what's wrong with this kind of "church". This isn't Christianity, it's humanism at it's worst. The Lord said that whoever looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. There is no way to reconcile the two attitudes. Either on is Christianity or the other is. I'll go with Jesus.
As much as I respect the White's, this was bound to happened and I am not surprised at all. One of the important aspects in a christian marriage is the importance of roles in the relationship. The man is the head of the household, that is the role that the bible ordained. This has nothing to do with sexism or opression of women, because womens roles are just as important. However in this situation, based on the article, I guess that Paula thinks that her ministry is more important than her role in a marriage. For the life of me, I do not know how she can be a "senior pastor" of a church while her husband is in the background. I think it goes against Gods idea of a marriage.
Preaching the word of God (if anyone cares for that) is certainly NOT about being hot outwardly, being photogenic or attractive in human eyes. The Whites got a step closer to losing it all. With all TV looks, perks, jetting around and money flow, it's hard to find the calm to reflect on what God might want to say. But there are tens of thousands who want exactly that: couch potatoes who never kneel down in prayer, dreaming about their version of prosperty to come true, cheering on where there is no word of God, no life, emptiness.
hot4paula, sounds like you could use a little prayer yourself. Divorse is sin in the sight of God,but it is not the unpardenable sin. if there is true repentence God will forgive and restore.
I am not a paula white fan,I do not beleive what she teaches to be the Word of God, yet I do beleive that God is able to turn her around if we pray. Art.
First let me say this: ye without sin, please cast the first stone. We are not to stand in judgement, we all fall short of the glory of God. God's Word is very clear about the positions of leadership within the Church. The husband of one wife, etc. We are living in the end times, when man decides what he will do rather than look to God's Word and obey what it says.
We are to be salt and light to this world, not looking exactly like this dying world. When things like this happen, my first response is PRAYER! Also, we as the Body of CHrist need to have discerning spirits, and NOT to just take what some leaders say is God's Words!
We are to be working out our own salvation with FEAR AND TREMBLING! Our God is in full control, He is not surprised by what is happening here. LOOK to JESUS, pray for all leaders, especially who are over you in the FAITH, how many of us, including myself remember to pray for our leaders on a day to day basis. They are under serious attacks from the enemy and all Christians are (that is true followers of Jesus)! The Lord told us that in the end times, men would become lovers of themselves, rather than of God and His Word!
When things like this happen, it causes me to take a look at my own walk; am I compromising in any area, am I following Jesus, (not his followers). Keep in the Word folks, let the Holy Spirit lead you, not men. Even Christian pastors fall, well pray that the Lord God will heal what's been broken. Even this the Lord God will use for His glory and their good!
Forgiveness is something that really works when it is applied, how many divorces happen within Christian families, because of unforgiveness.
Who is forgiven much, loves much! Jesus forgave us of everything we've ever done, and yet we cannot seem to extend that same forgiveness to the ones we claim to love. We want grace for ourselves, but yet we won't extend that same grace to others.
Lord God forgive us when we look at someone else fall, and begin to judge when we need to be looking at our own walk. In Jesus Name...Amen
People perform secular duties such as their jobs in offices, factories, etc and they get paid in secular money but those who work for God should expect payment from God in Gospel. This is not so popular as Mammon dominates the world and people fall victim to it as Pope fell to the Third Temptation of Satan to Christ Jesus. That is why Jesus told His Workers or Apostles not to carry any copper with them as His Labourers are worth their keep. This is further highlighted in the Last Supper when the fully trained Workers in the Vineyard of God were certified worthy of serving God through Eucharist or entering into the Bridal Chamber. Judas Iscariot was asked to leave the rest before the Baptising His Workers in Holy Spirit and this Jesus described in the Parable of Marriage of the Son when Father threw the one not properly dressed out of the Wedding Party. He was Judas Iscariot. So, people who accept payment for preaching Gospel do not preach the Gospel Truth, Bitter Tablet, but the sweeter than honey falsehoods of Satan, the sugar coated Tablets. Such people are psychic seeking their own praises rather than of God.
just read the card in front of paula.these people have obviously strayed from their true calling,yet we are told to pray for them and their spiritual restoration.but it is true that they are in no position to be leading flocks at this time and that is one of the things that make them look like just another pair of prosperity hucksters.
The word Devorce is not in the Christian Vocabulary ! It was replaced by FORGIVNESS.
Well I certaintly do not see a LIGHT reflecting here in this situation. I see lust of the flesh and the flock that was under their teaching will suffer. We need to pray that the Lord guide all concerned find their way back to truth!!
Ephesians 4:11-12
DBLAW: *chuckles* thank you for that warm, complimentary intro!
dgnymn - Well put. One of the worst things about this story is that they are going on "pastoring" churches. How are those attending these churches, and being taught by these people, supposed to learn what's right and wrong in God's eyes with leaders leading them in such a way.
dgnymn: Pertaining to your question about what"s being dicussed here--meet Citizen
dgnymn: I guess life experience triumphed over dogma in this case. Divorce is hard on all involved, but they say its amicable, and their daughter is older, although she does have cancer, so I hope they both have committed to remaining involved in her life and care. If they do, I'm glad they are splitting up rather than remaining in an unhappy situation, no matter what you think "god says."
I don't want to sound too picky, here, but isn't this story about the "Megachurches Co-pastors?" instead of a personal discussion between a couple of interested parties who are discussing other things. This story is a shame on the church, or at least Without Walls, and it's a symptom of a far more sinister disease - SIN!!!
These "co-pastors" need to step down and stop with the "ministering." Have they not heard from God - "I hate divorce!" I guess the money and fame and prosperity gospel is more important than family and other important values.
This is a disgrace, and if the membership doesn't think this is a big deal, then this membership needs to get on their knees and repent also. We have "leaders" in the church of Christ who are making a mockery of marital vows, and we wonder why the homosexual agenda is catching steam??!!?? I'm not surprised, and as stated, these two leaders need to step down and learn humility and this means forfeiting their roles as leaders until such time as they learn what God would "truly" have them to learn, and not pick up and move on to another ministry or keep on preaching. Who wants to hear from two ministers of the gospel who have flagrantly violated God's law publicly and just whiz by it?
The Body of Christ needs more accountability, and let another be raised up by God to take their place!!!
REPENT, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!!!
dispensationalist2: Paula's statement is indeed strange and is most probably wrung out of an anguished heart that has momentarily faltered. TBN has only been in my country for a very short time and many of us find the prosperity gospel, amongst other things, that she preaches through the TBN very inspiring indeed. Paula and Randy need our prayers and understanding.
DBLAW: Ah, you've hit on something important. "I don't know if there is a god or not." It's true. I don't. But follow me on this one: if I don't know if there are gods or not, and there is no objective evidence for this or any other god, then I should not believe in gods until such evidence is found. You on the other hand, want there to be a god, because you already believe in one, so you'll read a god into everything, regardless of whether it is necessary or not.
Citizen; It seems to me that not only do you start with a presumption but with an exclusion, also. The answer to the question was determined before the investigation;from the start.
One could reasonably conclude that you don't know if there's a God or not. You just don't want there to be.
DBLAW: I mean that in these systems the answer to the question "Why is there morality, and how can we determine its contents?" will not be "god did it, and whatever he is claimed to have said goes."These systems do not presume the existence of supernatural creator entities.
dispensationalist2: what's a" positive confession, faith teacher" to do? How do you account for this apparent lack thereof?
Citizen: By "explanation of morality" do you mean one that has been created, adapted, and espoused by athiestic systems that is absolutely devoid of religious influence? Or do you mean one that has come down through history as an alternative to God based morality? Because neither of these exist. There are no concepts of right and wrong that are totally based on athiesm. In your basic code there will be beliefs derived from religion. Albeit, stripped of any God reference, but nevertheless still having there origins there. Because athiesm has no totally seperate set of moral beliefs developed absolutely and positively apart from religion. Or, so I see it.
It is somewhat ironic that Paula would make the following statement, "I wish there was a magic formula that gave you GUARANTEES in life", when the prosperity gospel she espouses says that if you have enough faith and follow the formulas then you are GUARANTEED health and wealth. It is God's will they say.
DBLAW: I don't understand. How do worldviews that have explanations of morality that aren't based on supernatural authority "derive" from theism?
Citizen: I'm just saying that there are no moral systems; no beliefs about right wrong that didn't derive from thiestic systems of belief. including athiestic ones. You imply that there could be, might one day be, but in truth there are none. Aren't you positing a theory that has absolutely no validation? Some of us less enlightened folks call that blind faith.
Citizen: the "old straw" man line, huh? I beg to differ. This is what I've been inquiring about from the start. That and why non-believers read and post on Christian websites.But ,never mind, you've answered my questions. I was just curious, thanks.
DBLAW, cont'd: You, on the other hand, seem to think, that historical existence somehow implies necessity. That is not so. Slavery, for example, historically prevalent, completely unnecessary, and utterly immoral.
DBLAW: You've created a strawman. Nowhere did I claim that there has been a culture without supernaturalism.
Ok Citizen, I'm still waiting for an example of a culture with morals totally devoid of religious foundation so I can go read about them. Where is the impact of these "free thinkers". If they have any it doesn't seem to last very long. Even in nations where the government declares itself to be athiest, the citizens aren't.
After 50 yrs in power you'd think that the old USSR would have produced a plethora of athiests, but it didn"t. After it fell people went back to freely practicing their faith. Don't you find that a bit curious? Even China can't make a true claim of freedom from religion, can they?
gavulav:I don't believe you. I'm glad that you admit you have no evidence, but without it, all the prayer in the world won't change my mind. I don't believe prayer works.
DBLAW: book recommendation time! Doubt: A History by Jennifer Michael Hecht, and Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan Jacoby. Culture isn't as monolithic as your posts seem to imply. In fact, pretty much every culture has had skeptics, doubters, and out-and-out non-believers in the dominant supernatural concepts of the time.
Morals and ethics need no supernaturalism to exist, as you imply. Rather, they are necessities of holding societies together. Take murder. Suppose a community decided that it was ok to murder, as we define it. That community would collapse in the face of the increased insecurity of its members. Just because you think there can be no morality apart from an authoritarian deity, doesn't make it so.
Citizen - This is going to sound like foolishness to you, but there is no other way to say it. Christianity is the Kingdom of God on earth. Its king is Jesus of Nazareth. He is the Word of God, who was with God from the beginning. He was sent to earth by Jehovah God, his father, to set the captives free and to die on the cross of Calvary for our sin. Anyone who believes in him shall not perish in the lake of fire, but shall have eternal life. The Bible is the written inspired word of Jehovah. I am unable to give you proof of any of this foolishness, but I'm praying that God will touch your heart and enlighten your mind and turn your zeal to defending the things of his kingdom. His kingdom could certainly use a passionate foot soldier like you. With all my love and prayers. Gavula.
dhster: There is a report about WOF's impact in Africa in the July issue of Christianity Today FYI.
dhster: You may find this hard to believe, but the "prosperity gospel" ,or Word Of Faith movement as it is officially none by, is spreading like wild-fire in Africa and South America. I haven't seen a report on Haiti, but my guess is it is there, also.
Citizen - Actually I just feel sorry for non-believers, and I understand the Canon is arbitrary to you, and again I'm sorry.
dhster - We had a wonderful sermon this morning on Job 1 concerning, in part, the difference between the prosperity and "God will make your life happy and trouble free" gospel and the True Gospel of Scripture. Then I came home and saw this article. I wish I could give a copy of that sermon to anyone who attends that kind of church.
Sorry "do it because God says so" was not point, although that will suffice for me. Every ancient society and culture has been found to have basically the same moral codes: "don't steal, don't kill, don't lie, obey your parents, etc". A code I'm sure you too hold. And every one of them based on religion, as you define it. There has been no discovery of an athiestic culture.
No society that said "we don't believe in any god, so let's develop our own moral code apart fro religion. Therefore, Humanist actually hold religion-based morals. Athiest like and agree with these morals for the most part, but try to divorce any notion of God from them. However, the fact remains that athiesm has developed no morals apart from and seperated from religion. The antagonism directed troward religion while holdig beliefs developed under religion is, well, odd.
Further, none of the philisophical systems you listed are foundational for any culture, are they? No society has any of these as a basis for morality or governance, right
DBLAW: Oh, I'm not disputing that Secular Humanism and Christianity are both worldviews, with beliefs that those with said worldviews will likely have. Humanism even has three different versions of a manifesto, at www.americanhumanist.org, which spell out what we are likely to think (note though, that they don't say that even the signers don't have to agree with all of what is written there. They aren't dogmatic documents that must be absolutely adhered to).
Remember, my objection was to your vastly expanded definition of "religion." Since you appear to have dropped that, we are that much closer to agreeing. So what we have now are Humanism, based in reason and science, versus Christianity, based in faith. I'll certainly argue that mine is superior to yours, as you will no doubt do the same. If we both didn't think that we currently have it right, we'd change our minds until we did think so, right?
dhster: If the bible contained an accurate list of every U.S. president, explicitly by name, that kind of prophecy would impress me, if it could be verified to have been made 2000 years ago, rather than inserted into the bible yesterday.
Okay, trying again.
Citizen: I see the dicussion has taken a different turn, but I'd like to respond to your earlier post, if I may.
I don't think thereis a misunderstanding that Secular Humanism is a belief system. A system that is foundational for your moral convictions and one that focuses your purposes and goals. Same as my Creator-God belief.
Oh yes, as for the Whites, why would they hide their finances? I for one am against the "prosperity gospel" as it only seems to work for those preaching it! Try teaching that in a poor country like Haiti or Sudan's Darfur province. See how far that will get you. There are many that teach this junk. Jesus said that the poor will always be with us, and not to store up treasures here on earth. When people like Rodney Howard Browne teach things like Christ wore designer clothes, it makes me shudder.
Pardon me folks, I'm having trouble posting. This is just a test
Citizen: The main proof of the Bible , IMHO, is prophecy. It's all come true except for the events yet to occur. Please read, i you haven't already, Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. It worked for many who wanted this proof.
RBB: "the canon" is arbitrary. Why the bible, rather than the Bhagavad Ghita? or the Koran? You've just picked one and declared it to be the standard, but you have no evidence that any of them are accurate in their depictions of gods. And you did say that you thought it would be a waste of time for people to discuss things they don't believe in. And you have no idea how I feel, you're just making things up to fit comfortably in with your stereotypes of non-believers.
Citizen- I don't think I said it was a waste of time. Actually you just sound like you're confused and haven't decided what you believe yet.
Citizen- You may have a problem deciding if there is a God but I don't. Sorry, but the canon of Scriputure is closed, no one gets to add more.
RBB: its not a waste of time to discuss what other people believe. I also discuss Buddhism, Unitarian Universalism, Judaism, Islam, and Paganism. By your "logic," that must mean I am secretly all of those. I discuss both conservativism and liberalism at various times, so which one am I? Can't be both. Or maybe your suppositions are off-base.
artm: You can say Christianity isn't a religion all you want, you'll still be wrong.
RBB: You don't have any idea whether gods even exist, much less what, if anything, they decree. You arbitrarily declare the bible to be "what god wants", but you could just as easily declare The Lord of the Rings to be "what god wants." In fact, I could write a book, and declare that god had been writing through me, and you couldn't prove me wrong.
DBLAW-
You asked early on
"Citizen, May I ask you a question that's been nagging me for a while now?
Why do athiests, agnostics, secularists, and otherwise non-believers hang out at Christian sites and feel a need to post on them"?
That's a very good question. Generally my reaction is that if they really didn't believe they wouldn't be wasting their time. Unless of course they really do believe and they are just trying to find a way to talk themselves out of it....you know the old 'I think they doth protest too much'.
Citizen - Your welcome for reminding you (and everyone else) of what the Bible says. It always amuses me when people make such a ridiculous statement as yours. You think because puny, insignificant man's views have changed, God's have. What a silly notion. God cares no more for what man thinks or says than say....a Christian cares what a humanist says.
citizen, You are wrong. Christanity is a relationship with Jesus Christ,Not a man made religion. And Jesus was not magically resurrected from the grave, He did not defeat death by some magical trick, But He was " Supernaturally Resurrected by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
There are those who would like to say that Christanity is just another religion, But they are wrong, Jesus Christ died on the Cross of Calvery so that fallen man could have a personal relationship with God.
So while some may not agree with that,or like to admit that, It is still the truth. Art
artm: ugh. That's probably my least favorite way people have of dealing with the stigma that the word "religion" bears, because it's the most out-of-touch with reality. Look, if you use faith to claim that a supernatural creator entity exists, and incarnated in a person, who then was magically resurrected after death, and sent off to an afterlife where rewards and punishments are dealt out, its most definitely a religion. Just like all the other religions who make the same or similar claims.
some on this post are talking about religion. I would like to tell you that " Christanity " is not a religion, It is a Person,His Name is Jesus Christ. Christanity is a relationship with Christ the Son of the Living God. Art.
RBB: Thank you for reminding us all that the bible is outdated, and not a reliable guide to social values when it isn't cherry-picked.
A horrifying story, one hardly knows where to start.....
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church".
1Timothy 2:12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
Mark 10 7-9 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate"
1Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows".
DBLAW: I don't accept your definition of religion, because the word comes with supernatural baggage that would make it inappropriate to apply to worldviews such as conservativism or liberalism, both of which can fall into your definition. Religion, in my view, should only be applied to worldviews based on supernatural entities, such as your creator god. To do otherwise is to force secular ideas and people into a religious framework, rather than understanding them on their own terms. It leads to misunderstandings.
I'm confused as to why you would think that just because people said "Do this because god said so" in the past, we need to go on doing that? That seems to be your argument, but in fact many moral systems have been developed that do not rely on supernatural entities. Epicureanism, Stoicism, Utilitarianism, Kantianism, Pragmaticism, Humanism...but of course you won't see that if you insist on labeling things "god" which do not need the label.
Citizen; So religion, then, is unnecessary and thus irrelevant because community and morals and singing can be practiced by anyone? I should say here that I define 'religion' as a belief system that one more or less basis their life and views on. Which includes Humanism. My religion is based on a Creator-God. Almost all other religions believe in some sort of diety,including self-diety. I would be grateful if you can point me to any society or culture, past or present, which developed it's concepts of community and morals apart from and irrespectkul of it's religious beliefs. My point being there are no morals or community without religion.
Moreover, they compare the religious to the non-religious, which says nothing about the demographic of "conservative Christians."
admdalew: The problem with those stats is that they only cover the first ten years of marriage, and only women.
http://www.divorcereform.org/real.html
I think you are wrong, citizen.
admdalew: You don't need to read the bible to know that you can't always have everything your own way in marriage. One thing is for sure: being a conservative Christian means your chances of staying married compared to other groups are decreased.
DBLAW: A lot of things are practiced under the guise of religion that are good. Community, attempts to teach and model morals, singing...but those things aren't good "because god said so," they are good because they enrich our lives and help us get along and work together.
Citizen: You're welcome and thanks for answering. You said you like discussing religion. I'm going to assume that you are prepared to document the 'evils' of religion, but I'm curious to know about any good things you find in relgion, if any.
I think the real problem here, as with any failed relationship, the two of forgot the Biblical principle of putting others before ourself. They got selfish and didn't minister to each other and instead fed their selfish desires.
The divorce rate for christians may be higher, but christians are more likely to get married. The website you reference, citizen, also states that less people get married today than in the past (due to common law marriages and such).
{"There is consensus that the overall U.S. divorce rate had a brief spurt after WW2, followed by a decline, then started rising in the 1960s and even more quickly in the 1970s, then leveled off [in the] 1980s and [has since] declined slightly." 7 However, such gross statistics are misleading. There are a number of factors involved that obscure the real data:
bullet The normal lifestyle of American young adults is to live together for a period of time in a type of informal trial marriage. These relationships frequently do not endure.
bullet Couples enter into their first marriage at a older age than in the past.
bullet A growing percentage of committed couples have decided to live in a common-law relationship rather than get married. This is particularly true among some elderly who fear reduction in government support payments.}
It is possible that christians get divorced more often simply because more of them get married.
DBLAW: *shrug* I'm a Humanist, and I'm here because I like talking about religion, and I think its a really important topic that needs to be widely discussed amongst a variety of viewpoints, rather than in echo chambers. Thank you for asking rather than stereotyping. I appreciate it.
Citzen, May I ask you a question that's been nagging me for a while now?
Why do athiests, agnostics, secularists, and otherwise non-believers hang out at Christian sites and feel a need to post on them?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
Bouchdi: Actually, maybe this wouldn't have happened if they both had become atheists:
A recent study by the Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is ±2 percentage points. The survey found:
(snip)
Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.
So sad so sad. Perhaps if they preached salvation through faith and repentance in Jesus Christ instead of the prosperity gospel this divorce would not be happening.
(sarcasm)Another marriage destroyed by the gay agenda.
It is a sad day when Christ's people loose their direction. We often forget what we are about. Marriage is a mirror of our relationship to Christ, I hope they wake up and see Him and submit to HIm.
Ecc 3:16 And again I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that wickedness was there.
Ecc 2:25 For who can eat, or who can enjoy, apart from me?
Ecc 2:26 For God gives wisdom, and knowledge, and joy to a man who is good in His sight. But to the sinner He gives labor, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him who is good before God. This also is vanity and vexation of spirit.