"I want you to throw out your pre-conceived notions about Christianity for a moment and think about what Jesus said," a national evangelist told thousands seated at the Amphitheater at California State University Stanislaus.
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(Photo: Harvest Crusades)Evangelist Greg Laurie speaks to thousands at the Amphitheater at California State University Stanislaus during the Central Valley Harvest Crusade, Aug. 24-26.
"Who better to tell us what God is like than Jesus?" posed Greg Laurie at the Central Valley Harvest Crusade, his third evangelistic outreach this summer.
Some 48,000 people flocked to the Harvest Crusade with thousands more watching top Christian artists perform and Laurie preach via live webcasts. The evangelistic crusade has been months in the making, involving around 150 churches and 3,000 local volunteers.
Addressing pre-conceived views of Christianity that some visitors may have attended the three-night event with, Laurie affirmed what many believe – that there are hypocrites in the church.
"I'd like to say to you that there are no hypocrites in the church, but there are because the church is made of real people," said Laurie Saturday night. But "just because there are hypocrites doesn't mean that's going to get you off the hook when you stand before God," the evangelist and Southern California pastor stressed.
"Jesus didn't say 'follow my people.' He said 'follow me,'" he highlighted. "Jesus will never let you down."
Speaking to those who may view Christianity as a religion of rules and regulations, Laurie mimicked such a person saying, "Ah, man. God is just out to ruin our lives. With all of its rules and regulations, who wants to get into that kind of thing?"
When Laurie had his Christ decision-making moment in high school, he hadn't originally set out to become a Christian. He was part of the party scene and had a mother who divorced seven times. And he thought Christians were Jesus freaks.
"A lot of us are like that. I'm going to draw my own picture of [who] God [is]," Laurie told the Harvest crowd.
And he didn't deny that sin can be fun. "It's fun to sin for a while. We've all had fun. But it comes with a penalty," he warned.
"It (sin) promises freedom but it brings slavery," said Laurie. "It promises pleasure but it ultimately brings misery."
Rather than judging from their own views, Laurie asked the crowd to see what Jesus says about what God is like.
Like the renowned story Jesus told of the prodigal son and the father, God will throw His arms around you and say "Welcome home, son/daughter," said Laurie.
Nearly 4,000 people accepted Jesus Christ over the Aug. 24-26 event. Laurie's next Harvest preaching is slated for New York on Sept. 23.
RSS
The problem with Greg Laurie's presentation of the Gospel is that it lacks what is needed to save self-righteous people. Only those already humbled by their circumstances will respond in humility. For all the rest of us proud hearted individuals we see no need to respond to a Jesus that is touted to give "a better life' as if Christ is A better way, instead of the ONLY way. And what is the sacrifice Jesus made on the Cross FOR? Life enhancement? no, Greg needs to understand his jesus is not Jesus and his gospel is not The Gospel that saves from the just reward of Hell. Shame on you Greg for making even more false converts.
One day a very well known Professor Scientist called all his fellow scientists over to his house for dinner. Once they have finished eating and drinking, he cleared the table of everything and asked them to remain seated. "Please clear your minds" he said, "because I will show you something, then I would like you to give me your best theory on what you could do with what you see. Everyone's opinion counts, no matter how wild or extreme it is."
Then he brought in a small sack of dirt and poured it in the middle of the table and then sat down himself. "What do you think?" he asked them.
There was silence for a long time until one man said jokingly: "I see a pile of dirt. It has a stench to it and some of it got on my pants." Everyone laughed except the host. When they noticed his seriousness, they all looked at each other somewhat confused.
"It looks like the dirt from your vacuum cleaner."
"It does, doesn't it?" The host replied. "Do you think we could make a vacuum cleaner out of this?
"It would be very difficult, if not impossible." They all agreed. "There just don't seem to be enough chemical elements present to make even a small knife, not alone to make all the parts needed for a working vacuum cleaner."
"So what do you think would be needed to do the job without adding anything to the pile of dirt that you see before you?" The host replied with annoyance.
Again a long silence. Angrily the host stood up and almost yelled at his friends. "Time! Time and a great energy you fools! Isn't that what we teach our students?"
"A few days ago, this here pile of dirt was a most incredible machine the world has ever known. It walked, talked, reasoned, loved, cried, felt and expressed pain, but most of all, it gave me life. And then, she died. This pile of dirt, my dear friends, is my mother. From the deep sorrow I now feel, I realized that I teach people to believe that in a few billion years, this pile of dust will reassemble itself and once again become my mother. I will no longer teach this."
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
KJV
hburra: You contradict yourself. If there actually were objective evidence, faith would be unnecessary. If you only find evidence after you already believe it to be true, then that is not objective evidence, its a case of confirmation bias.
Citizen - you are no doubt well educated and an effective debater. Our arguments will not be able to change your mind or heart. That's where God comes in. God, although invisible, has already provided plenty of physical evidence for his existence, holiness, power, and sovereignty. But one additional ingredient is needed that may seem strange: faith. God gives us the capacity for faith. I urge you not to resist God's call to trust in Jesus for the free gift of salvation that Jesus gave us through his work on the cross.
Nerohdam: If you work in science, then you must know about Occam's Razor, and the placement of the burden of persuasion on those who make claims, rather than on those who seek to refute them. Therefore, if Christians do not carry the burden of persuasion with regard to their claims, we should not believe them, and the same goes for all other religions. Atheism is the default until a religion carries its burden of persuasion.
Terratone: um, what? I specifically stated that I rejected faith in all the gods that have been proposed, including the christian god. Indeed, the social contract has nothing to do with creators. It arrises among human beings as they attempt to organize and maintain societies. Your objections appear confused and hysterical. You're desperating throwing every objection you can imagine to the concept of secular ethics, regardless of whether it even makes sense in regard to the social contract, much less whether it is an actual substantive objection, or merely based on the fact that it doesn't include your imagined deity. It clearly stings you to see it demonstrated that morality and ethics are not the sole providence of your abstraction, nor is it necessary. In response, you resort to fearmongering, which is not only an invalid reason to believe something, it once again demonstrates your desperation when faced with ideas that make your god ideas irrelevant. Are you afraid you'll go to hell if you don't believe in god?
And I need to proofread my statements jeez... could have done a "w" here and there.
Citizen: I will now ask you then to prove the other religions or even atheism is true.
Also, in science you can not prove anything 100%. I work in the science field and basically you remove things which are not true and make an EDUCATED guess based upon your hypothesis.
Again if you are honestly seeking then the answer will come. If you are debating for debatements sake then I might was well be talking to a rock in all seriousness and not out of malice...
I have written this rebuttal, but with a certain sadness in mind. In my opinion Citizen, you are not searching for truth. My fear is that you have sealed yourself in this cocoon of denial that will one day be ripped from you.
Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I hope and pray that you do not continue to “mock” God. The results are irreversible in the end whether you adhere them in your thinking or not.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:26-31 (KJV)
Since we know the definition of the scientific method, there was no need to define it again unless it comes before a long diatribe of unproven suppositions. It is rather inane to say that they, (creationists) do not provide positive evidence. To disprove a “Theory”, you must provide positive evidence. Just because you have a forum where you can make statements of an all encompassing and boisterous nature, does not make your statements correct. More likely than not, ego is what is at stake in your syntax rather than truth.
It is rather refreshing though; even you must agree, although begrudgingly on your part, that you cannot in all wisdom adhere the the labeling of not believing in god, for indeed, in your darkened mind you make yourself the end all and be all of all that you see, in essence you by your actions, are to yourself your own god. You say you identify for a standard of moral code of ethics yet you deny where they themselves stem from. The Creator. I find it sad that you pick and choose as if you are in some sort of buffet of what you will accept, and what you will deny. Just because you do not give glory to God does not not detract from where true“ethics come from”. Why send the website for ethics? I have them already in the Ten Commandments. You apply ethics to your “life” so long as it suits your taste. When they don't you put them aside as orphans on the road, never claiming to have known them. God says to us in His word “I change not”.
God is unchangeable. God's word is unchangeable. In Matthew 24:35, the Lord Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Malachi 3:6 (KJV)
Terratone: Yes, activities do have to meet certain qualifications before they can be considered science. The most important of those is adherence to the scientific method, which involves, among other things, attempting to locate positive evidence to either prove or disprove a falsifiable hypothesis. This not what creationists/IDers do. What they do is try to disprove the theory of evolution (they are utterly failing, but let's leave that aside for a moment), suppose they managed it. They would have to offer positive, physical evidence in support of an alternative hypothesis. They've also failed to do that.
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The other definitions are indeed trivial for purposes of our discussion. They are red herrings.
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Nerohdam was suggesting the processs of elimination as an alternative to positive physical evidence, as far as I understood him.
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I'd like to preserve for the record my objection to the statement "you believe there is no god" That is not an accurate statement. Say rather that I reject faith in all the gods that have been proposed. However, that what is more important is that I identify for you a standard of morals and ethics that does not rely on supernatural creator entities, and here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Contract .
As for who is jumping to conclusions in the matter of germ theory and brain chemistry, its still you.
Nerohdam, cont'd: You did not answer the question, you dismissed it. One of the central truth claims of Christianity-god answers prayers-is being challenged objectively, and repeating dogma instead of switching to the objective realm to answer the challenge does not work.
JC: How would you go about determining what the chances are, that didn't amount to making up numbers based on your pre-ordained conclusion? You are making the argument from incredulity ("I would be shocked if it happened that way, and that constitutes evidence that it didn't happen that way.") Unfortunately, your personal feelings, as I think we've already talked about, have no bearing on the objective truth of the matter.
“You have yet to give evidence that we actually have a pre-ordained purpose, and as for the human condition, "god" has been used many times in the past to explain things about humanity and the world, and later its been found to be unnecessary.”
Later its been found to be unnecessary... By whom? In what context? What lambasting we as Christians would receive if were predisposed to throw out such half hearted attempts of an “answer”. The double standard that you have in your responses are palpable.
“ Disease and insanity used to be thought caused by divine retribution, then we discovered germs and brain chemistry. History shows that jumping to the conclusion "goddidit" is probably not the best way to go. “
First you besmirch God's character by injecting “divine retribution” and then you interject germs and brain chemistry as if they in themselves were simple in complexity by nature and not woven by the wisdom of a Holy God. I wonder in reality who is “jumping” to conclusions in this more heady matter?
Philippians:4:8: Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Unless you have God, these thought are beyond your reach. At best, a cheap two dimensional copy and selfish to its very core. Used or be used is the anthem of the ungodly. Provoke and do not provide. Chastise and not bring up. Promote self and demean others is it's battle cry.
"Nerohdam1: creationism/ID does not meet definition 3a, which is the definition that applies to the profession of science. The other definitions are informal and colloquial."
Question: Why does Creation/ ID not "meet" the definition that applies to the profession of "science"? Hmm... Possibly due to presuppositions as to what the "profession is"?
Assumptions rather that well thought out searching. Cheap short cuts and prideful ignorance rather than humble, heartfelt, and truthful searching.
"The other definitions are informal and colloquial." Pardon me if I am wrong but this sentence smacks of arrogance. Trivializing the rest of the definitions opens volumes of the inner workings and character of the writer.
"How can you eliminate anything if you don't look to the positive physical evidence to set the standard for judging what is and is not objectively true."
Your supposition of the positive physical evidence being neglected in the processes of elimination is unfounded and not well thought out. Rather than holding desperately to the "facts" you cling to, honestly search out what is so readily available to probe.
Also what standards do you pursue since you believe there is no God? Why should you care? Eat and be merry for tomorrow we die. In your existence without God you are without merit. A blob of flesh without any true nobility. Your thoughts are inconsequential, mere guttural sounds emanating from a hole perchance to fall somewhere you call your face. You without God are meaningless and without any “purpose”. In the “world's” terms you are a bag of chemicals. If you grow old or injured, and cannot pull your own weight, you should be exorcised for the betterment of society. Survival of the fittest. Your standards are selfish and soulless without the refining interaction from a Holy God that exists outside your thought processes.
I'll answer your further response and JC later.
Nerohdam1: creationism/ID does not meet definition 3a, which is the definition that applies to the profession of science. The other definitions are informal and colloquial.
You suggest using process of elimination. How can you eliminate anything if you don't look to the positive physical evidence to set the standard for judging what is and is not objectively true. The whole thing becomes arbitrary. Moreover, you talk of "explaining human purpose and condition." You have yet to give evidence that we actually have a pre-ordained purpose, and as for the human condition, "god" has been used many times in the past to explain things about humanity and the world, and later its been found to be unnecessary. Disease and insanity used to be thought caused by divine retribution, then we discovered germs and brain chemistry. History shows that jumping to the conclusion "goddidit" is probably not the best way to go.
Citizen: I agree with Nerohdam on this matter. Whether God has healed amputees in the past, present, or future, is not relevant to His love for us.
If you are still seeking truth, then may I ask you the following question? Can you name one thing that humans have created since being on this planet? Just one?
I ask this question to a lot of people, and their answers are usually the same: Cars, microwave ovens, TV's, computers, etc., etc. But this is incorrect. True, we have these things, but we didn't create them, we fashioned creation into these things. We took the very earth we live on, that already existed, and we fashioned all that we have from it. With the exception of a few tons of meteorites and Moon rocks, everything we have came from here.
Talk about dependency. Talk about proof of God. This cannot be just an accident of nature. The chances of all this coming together, on one planet, are extremely high, if not flat impossible.
Scientists can only prove what is given them to work with.
"why won't god heal amputees?"
Sometimes in our brokeness God does heal. You know if I had been obiedient to God a lot sooner than when I accepted Him I guarentee my life would be a lot simpler. It took a few hard knocks in my life to come to Him.
Why won't God heal amputees again this takes faith in believing that it is better for you. Does it suck? Yeah... Does it hurt? Yeah...
But this I do know. God is a good God and a Loving God and everything is done according to His will and in the end it truly for your own good. Again it takes a leap of faith to believe God does love you.
I hope this answers the question of amputees as it is the best I can and with a sincere heart to provide better understanding because we are all in the same boat of knowing more about God and unfortunately our human minds are just that ... human.
Citizen:
According to the online Merriam-Webster dictionary accesses Aug 30, 2008 it states:
Main Entry: sci·ence
Pronunciation: 'sI-&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin scientia, from scient-, sciens having knowledge, from present participle of scire to know; perhaps akin to Sanskrit chyati he cuts off, Latin scindere to split -- more at SHED
1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study <the science of theology> b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge <have it down to a science>
3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : NATURAL SCIENCE
4 : a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws <cooking is both a science and an art>
5 capitalized : CHRISTIAN SCIENCE
So yes the theories of intelligent design - which looks for physical evident of a creator or designer would seem to fit the definition of science.
On another note I highly suggest you check out those books by Lee Stroebel. He had the exact same questions that you are currently faced with. Also in reading your post, I have noticed that you are looking for positive physical evidence. Did you consider using process of elimination? For example use that same critical magnifiying glass that you use to examine christianity and examine the other religions and even aethism? I did that and I found the others don't even come close to explaining the human purpose and condition. In fact in other religions, it would seem you would need an amount of faith 100x greater than the faith of christianity to believe and sometimes it requires money and a spaceship lol. But I digress, just like in statistics, you may not be able to prove the truth but you can get a pretty good idea by proving something false. And to tell you the truth that is what science is based upon. The 90% and 95% certainty in all these scientific studies use statistical methods that actaully do not prove the truth but try to prove with 95% accuracy that it is not based upon random chance that something is false so the alternative iconclusion is sometihng is true. Sorry for all the spelling mistakes trying to type too fast :)
JC: It's ironic to hear you speak of negatively of presumption, when, to be Christian, you have to presume that 1. god exists and 2. that he answers prayers, including yours. To understand why that's so, please peruse the following website, beginning with this page: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/important.htm
To Citizen: I don't know, you will have to ask Him. But I'm not sure that He hasn't either. In reality, we humans are unaware of every little detail that happens on this planet. Most of us are unaware of things in our own community, or sometimes even in our own homes. Therefore, I wouldn't be so sure that He hasn't. History just doesn't cover every detail, with every individual, that has ever been on this planet. To say that He has "never", or He "couldn't", would be at best a presumption on our part, and in all actuality incorrect.
JC: Well, if nothing else, we''ve established that you do believe in miracles, and specifically, that god heals miraculously. That makes you the perfect person to answer this question: why won't god heal amputees?
To Citizen: I do know why it happened. But I felt that it wasn't necessary to tell you the why's. That is between me and God, and no other. What was important was that you could actually see the truths you were seeking in what I had experienced.
JC cont'd: I'm glad you like my toaster analogy. But it also works the other way too: If I don't actually own a toaster, telling everyone I do, buying bread, and wishing really hard for toast will not make me own a toaster.
JC: That is indeed an amazing experience, and I'm glad you are clean. I can only imagine the horrors of drug abuse, having never partaken myself. As you've said, you've heard the other theoretically possible explanations for what happened. But there was one you didn't mention, and I'm a little surprised it didn't show up: you don't know why it happened the way it did. Its a complete lack of information. Have you considered the possibility that your certainty that it was god is based on an assumption, not knowledge?
To Citizen: Let me tell you something that happened to me, one (of many) basis of truth that I can certainly stand on. Years ago, I was a methampetamine addict. I was so addicted that I had given up everything, God, faith, people, the world. I really didn't care if I died or not. Really. I was 28 years old and I looked 40. I weighed 117 lbs. and I am 5'9" tall. Food was discusting, I couldn't even look at it. When I did sleep, I slept in places that one could only dream they never see in the daylight, let alone in the night. I seen people killed who were with me one moment, and then not the next. I seen friends beat up, to near death. The police have very little interest in what happens to the homeless or drug addicts, or in my case both. They usually harass you for instigating something you didn't.
I'm not telling you this to gain your sympathy, it's the last thing I want. I'm telling you this to show you the power and the glory of the Lord.
One day, after years of this, I woke up in an apartment with two gentlemen whom I helped to steal a vehicle for more drugs the night before. I couldn't take it anymore. After they left for their morning duties of getting more drugs, I fell to my knees and asked God to get me out. At that point, I heard an audible voice, just as audible as I hear my wife now, say "Have you had enough?". Now the weird thing about this is that I had prayed many times throughout this ordeal to God about getting me out, but until I was serious he answered me not. Which is why I had given up on Him too. Of course, I said "Yes". Within 24 hours, I was on my way to another state, and more importantly, I had no addiction to methamphetamine anymore. Really. No side effects, no withdrawal symptoms, nothing. Only God could have prevented these physiological effects on my body. I've seen many meth addicts try to kick the habit since then, but only to have moderate to severe withdrawal symptoms and side effects. I had none. I don't know how God did this, and may never know. It really doesn't matter.
This is one example (of many) of how God has helped me. Truth that I can stand on. Since then, He has made himself more real to me than I could have imagined. My life has turned around 180 degrees. All to his glory.
Now, I've heard people say that it was because you wanted to get out, and you did it yourself, and it was your will, and so on and so forth. But they all fall short when I tell them about the lack of withdrawal symptoms, side effects, etc. This is not mind over matter, this is not human intervention, this is God. He's the only one who could have done this.
This is the truth I stand on. This is what I know. This is what has been shown to me. And because of this, I continue to search for more.
By the way, I like your analogy of the toaster. But without the bread for which to eat, there would be no need for a toaster to begin with.
JC, cont'd: I once believed the claims of Christianity. But when I stopped assuming that details of those claims were true, and started looking for positive evidence that they were true, I could not find anything. I assure you, I was playing no game, but many Christians can't handle the idea that I could be perfectly sincere in my belief, and yet still change my mind. I believed because I thought Christianity was true. No longer. The True Church you mention is an ideal, an abstraction. As you note, it need not have any basis in reality.
Terratone: I hope the things I have explained to JC give you some idea of why I no longer believe.
Nerohdam: would you mind explaining under what definition of "science" creationism/intelligent design fits?
JC: You are right about one thing. The actions of people who label themselves Christians have nothing to do with the truth or falsehood about the claims of Christianity concerning the existence of a supernatural creator entity who has been intervening in human affairs, to the point of incarnating as one of us. To draw an analogy, the existence of my toaster does not depend on whether or not I have purchased bread, or intend to make toast.
Citizen,
What made you stop believing in God? I don't want to criticize you, just understand.
To Citizen: None of us are expected to walk a perfect line. There is no verse in the Bible to provide for this ideology. God knows this, he created us. He knows our emotions, our desires, our shortcomings. He knows these things can get in the way, he created us. Unfortunately, the World's idea of a Christian is someone who never makes mistakes, who is always right, who is never tempted, who is always perfect. And then one one falls, as we all do, the press is all over it, bashing it as much as they can, so they can attempt to prove He doesn't exist. One now must ask why? Well, it's the same old story. How long has the evil one been trying to get people to accept this lie?
To Citizen: I'm failing to understand your sentence "... and that I had received salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I stopped believing that, because I realized everything I have been saying, that the claims of Christianity are baseless." I'm having trouble understanding this because I find much foundation in that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ does cover the multitude of Sin. The foundations are evident in all we see around us.
Citizen: We Christians love you, even if you don't want us to. You are still family. But what is disturbing to me is that it sounds as if you have lost your first love. See, you were only happy in that Church because you were aware of His love for you, and your love for Him. You were only able to love Him because He loved you first. If you were truly happy in that Church, as you claim, then it was out of His love, and your love, or you were just playing a happy Jesus game and were not really serious. You may have walked the walk and talked the talk, but still not have known him. Unfortunately, there are many in the church today that fit this description.
To Citizen: Dear one, there is one more thing. The True Church is NOT made up of denominations, rather the denominations are made up of the real church. In other words, there is the True Church in every denomination, but not everybody in that denomination is the True Church.
Citizen: you tell me I have only faith. I have faith and I have a mind and looking at it from a scientific point of view the mind is quite an amazing organ. Not to mention all the other complex and intricite (sic) things in this world.
To everyone: Using my mind to weed out all the other explainations for the human condition including atheism and trying the best that I can to use logical thinking, I have come up with the conclusion Christ was who He said he was. You and I both know that atheism is not true. That is why many go to religious sites to either honesty look for the answer to the itch or knock at their hearts or to anatagonize without sincerely wanting the answer. While I do not claim to be an apologetics (sic) person, I do see the order in the universe and the many,call it what you want ,miracles/wonders of this world that I KNOW it was not created by chance. There was a designer. Now who that designer is, is up for you to decide but if you are honestly seeking to know the truth then seek. I don't know what makes people leave the church but remember that the church is made up of fallen men and women like myself, you and everyone here. We are all human but as I would hope you know according to the Bible we are forgiven if we accept Christ into our hearts. Is is not about the music, the clapping or words spoken in the church but the heart, the soul behind the music, words and clapping. Church is for giving God glory for ALL our circumstances in life. Good and bad.
Citizen: I would love to talk to you on a less private forum if you wish to. i honestly would like to hear about your story. Provide things that I learned. I don't have all the answers either but we are all on this amazing journey to find out more of who God is. This actually goes out to anyone and not just Citizen. You can reach me at nerohdam@gmail.com . Also you may already know this but The case for Christ and The case for faith by Lee Stroebel are some pretty good books to examine for those honesty seeking the Truth.
JC: I reject the idea of god contained in the bible because there is no evidence to support that idea. Christians believe because they apparently think that if they clap really loudly, wish really hard, and repeat their claims to themselves over and over, they can make them true. You can’t separate the Christian idea of god from the bible that contains it, so I don’t know why you are speaking as though you can.
You seriously can’t think of any other reason why I’d be here? How about that an atheist blog I frequent linked to one of this site’s editorials about atheists, and I stuck around because I like talking about religion. Two days ago I was on a Buddhist site, every week I read a pagan website, and every day I frequent Humanist/atheist blogs and websites. You can’t infer everything that you are from the fact that I comment on this website.
I spent three years as a committed Christian, believing that I was a sinner, and that I had received salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I stopped believing that, because I realized everything I have been saying, that the claims of Christianity are baseless. Let’s see if you can accept that knowledge, or if your knee will jerk as you flail around claiming that I was never a True Christian ™. Oh, and before you go there, I was very happy as a Christian. My church was filled with excellent people, I loved the singing. I was secure in the hope that god would approve as I tried to do what I thought he wanted, and would forgive me when I didn’t measure up. So don’t try to frame it as some kind of stupid emotional thing.
Sorry, I thought i edited it correctly. GRIPS=GRIPES KNOWING GOD TO GOD= KNOWING GOD.
Being raised from CatholicTraditional Christian background to a Pentecoastal Evangelical/Fundamental contemporary to now a NON Affiliate seeing years of divisions lust pride greed using Beliefs .In The Name Of Jesus Christ. I am a lot more sympathetic to a "so called unsaved non believers GRIPS of those CLAIMED THE INSIDE TRACK KNOWING TO GOD & Holy Scripture. The American Church is NOT exactly what Jesus Christ had in mind IMO. Very sad day in Christendom. despite the so called MEGA GROWTH.= GODS FAVOR.
To Citizen: You reject Him because you know Him not. Christians know him, because they have made a sincere effort to know him. God said that he will not cast away those who seek him. But I believe this has to be sincere on our part. Whole-heartedly sincere. The problem you have is not with the Bible, but God himself. How do I know? Well, you stated it yourself. You said that the Bible is no authority on the supernatural. But, in actuality, you are saying that God has no authority on the supernatural. How do I come to this conclusion? Simple. One of the names of Jesus is "The Word". Since you have a problem with the Bible (or The Word), you have a problem with God. John wrote, in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the words was God. Who was with God in the beginning? The Word, or Jesus.
To Citizen: God knows you are seeking him. If you weren't, you would not be on this site. It's not hard, just look at what Jesus told every disciple he came to: "Follow me". Some gave excuses, others refused, but some did not. We call those who followed him Christians. You too can follow him, but it must be with sincerity and honesty (in spirit and in truth). He will make Himself known to you, but you must ask and seek.
SolaScriptura: First of all, if anyone could agree on what a True Christian(tm) was, there would be only one Christian denomination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations).
Secondly, like I said, the bible has no more authority than any other "holy scripture" in the realm of the supernatural. Which is to say, they have all yet to be shown as anything other than baseless.
Finally, Christianity is no more exempt from criticism than any other set of ideas. You can try all you want, but you can't disqualify anyone who would criticize on the basis that they don't already believe its true. It's elitist and authoritarian, and its not the way things work in an open society with a free exchange of ideas.
Terratone: Could you be a little more coherent?
Nerohdam: I don't believe you, because you have no objective evidence for what you say, only faith. Faith is not a sufficient or reliable guide to truth.
Citizen: 1Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
You are free to comment - but the Bible clearly states that you speak without any spiritual understanding. Unless the Holy Spirit removes the blindness from your eyes you will continue to say things with the lens of human wisdom. Unfortunately only a true follower of Christ can accurately discuss the Word of God and you don't qualify. On top of that your criticism is completely pointless to the one in whom the Holy Spirit indwells because the believer has truth to guide, and in this case against erroneous statements such as yours. I am judgmental I am narrow minded - but that is what the Word tells me to do. None the less I am still right now praying that God would reveal truth to you.
The statements in the Bible that are often quoted speaks to us of the character of God and what He wants out of us. God is justice and fair. However, we are all human and we all fall short of the glory of God. We are all condemned by our sins. Yeah...all of us. But God being just as He should be is also equally merciful. That is why He sent His Son Jesus, who is also God, down to earth to show us how we are to live. He took our sins and we have been forgiven IF WE ACCEPT Him taking our sins. WHOA!!! Yeah... the judgement and consequences meant for us have been effectively transfered to God's only Son to take our just punishment. But here is the kicker...we have to accept into our hearts the Love of God aka his Son into our hearts and REPENT (turn away) of our sins. It is not too late...if anyone at this moment has not accepted Jesus and wants to know more about him then repent and ask Jesus into your heart and ask Him to forgive you of your sins.
Will you be free of temptation? No... but you will have a helper with you to help fight that temptation of sin. Only when you have Christ in your heart will you have someone to help you instead of being a slave to sin like you were before you accepted Christ.
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause...
Are there such things as foolish people?
What is Jesus saying in this passage?
Who is he referring to?
Brother?
Without a cause...hmm.
What is the spirit of Jesus action here?
Can it be in a different context from the psalmist.
hmm...
the fool hath said in his heart...
to himself..
in his mind..
there is no God...
Why was he foolish?
Because he denied that there is no God.
Are there foolish people on earth.... ask a drunk driver.
Hmm...
Anger and hard language toward a fellow believer as supposed to a description of who a foolish person is.
Is this too difficult for you to understand?
Ephesians:4:18: Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Lovely. Both the psalmist and Paul are in danger of going to hell (or is it the bible itself that is in danger?), according to the Bible's depiction of Jesus:
Matthew 5:22(NIV)- But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Shame. The bible can't even be consistent on whether it's ok to call people "fool."
Psalms:14:1: The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Romans:1:18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans:1:19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans:1:20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans:1:21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans:1:22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Romans:1:30: Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Romans:1:31: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Romans:1:32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Proverbs:1:24: Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Proverbs:1:25: But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
Proverbs:1:26: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
Proverbs:1:27: When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Proverbs:1:28: Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
Proverbs:1:29: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Proverbs:1:30: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Proverbs:1:31: Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Proverbs:1:32: For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
Proverbs:1:33: But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
Interesting what all have to say about this subject,...Be thankful that all have that opportunity with Eve bitting the apple,..but there is no grey area here,..according to Holy Scriptures.....
That's not what I'm here for. I'm here to talk about religion, and give my opinions, just like everyone else.
Oh deliver us from our delusions, wise and powerful CITIZEN... lead us to your promise land.
Who better than Jesus to tell us about god? Nobody. But nobody is worse either. The Bible has no more or less ability to tell us about the supernatural than anyone else proposing to lecture on the same subject.