A new Hollywood movie retelling the true story of a band of Mormons who brutally murdered more than 100 pioneers passing through the Utah territory in 1857 may hurt the image of presidential hopeful and professed Mormon follower Mitt Romney.
The movie September Dawn, which opened in U.S theaters last Friday, stars Academy Award winner Jon Voight as Mormon bishop Jacob Samuelson, whose son falls in love with one of the girls on the wagon-train party heading for California from Arkansas.
The younger Samuelson’s attraction to the settler girl combined with the Mormon’s prior intention to harm the wagon party leads to the massacre on Sept. 11, 1857 of about 120 settlers by Mormons and their Indian mercenaries.
Dr. Ted Baehr, chairman of the Christian Film & Television Commission, believes the film will be harmful to Mitt Romney’s campaign.
“What [the character of] Brigham Young does in the movie is talk about…that you have to have blood atonement, you have to kill the Gentiles; then he declares himself a modern Mohammad,” said Baehr, according to OneNewsNow. “This is going to be an issue [for Romney]. It’s going to be an issue that will dog him. I think he’s got tremendous problems to overcome, and the movie will aggravate those problems.”
Many Christian voters have already voiced concerns over voting for a Mormon for president of the United States. Some Christians are uncertain if Mormons can be considered Christians, while many view the Mormon church as a cult.
Recently, prominent theologian Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, stated conclusively that Mormons believe in a false gospel and are not Christians after a month-long online debate with a well-known Mormon science-fiction writer.
“Here is the bottom line. As an Evangelical Christian – a Christian who holds to the ‘traditional Christian orthodoxy’ of the Church – I do not believe that Mormonism leads to salvation,” wrote Mohler on July 25 in his last set of comments on the online debate hosted by Beliefnet.com.
“To the contrary, I believe that it is a false gospel that, however sincere and kind its adherents may be, leads to eternal death rather than to eternal life,” he stated.
Aside from criticism of Mormon theology, the newly released film, which revisits the infamous Mountain Meadows Massacre, is also “pretty condemning of Mormonism,” said Baehr. The entertainment expert does not recommend Christians watch the movie due to the level of violence.
September Dawn is rated R for violence.
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RBB - Thans for the objectivity. It's amazing how such honesty in dialog has a exponential impact on our discourse. In other words, you fairly listen to my opinion and I do the same to you and rather than excalate the vitriol we are able to come to some understanding. Thanks.
I have a good friend at work who is an active member of a local Evangelical congregation. I'll admit that I viewed him suspiciously when we met. But I am slowly becoming convinced that he has good intentions and a kind heart. Maybe that friendship will be the spark to eliminate my prejudices I have developed.
Thanks PASTOR for the same.
And RBB, don't count Romney out. Michigan is slated to have one of the first primaries after Iowa and N.H. Mitt is a hometown boy in Michigan and his Dad is a former Governor who was well liked. Mitt seems to have tied up NH and Iowa (which are admittedly a long way off) so if you really think he has no chance to win the nomination you'd better get working :-)
pastor~ I would not want to be in your congregation and listen to the milktoast, watered down message you must preach if this is a sample. You seem to mistake being non-resistant to error as the "Christian" thing to do, however, the Lord Jesus said that if someone would not receive the message of His gospel, to shake the dust off your feet and go on to someone else who might receive it. We are to correct error and give the truth of the Gospel. Our founding Fathers came to this country because they were escaping religious tyranny...so should they have remained there and sat around a camp fire and sang "cum ba yu my Lord" together with their erring counterparts they finally escaped from to start Biblical Christianity here?! I respect that we do have religious freedom in our country and thank God for it, however when someone comes to my door peddling a false doctrine, I have every right to give them what the Bible says contrary to what they are trying to convince me with and with as much fervor as they give me their learned rhetoric. If you don't stand for something with conviction resolutely, you will fall for anything, pastor. I respect every person, but will not tolerate their fake religions, especially those who blaspheme and "use" the Name of my Savior and His Book. "I even I am God and beside Me there is no other." We are told by Him that if we add to His Word or omit from it we are anathama...so what do you say about that one, pastor? "you cannot serve two masters."
I don't know why people are concerned that this movie from Hollywood would bother Mitt Romney...as I said earlier, it should have nothing to do with him. It's like the firestorm that we Christians went through when DaVinci Code came out. People were all concerned that this would cause Christians to lose their faith over the misrepresentations and lies that Mr. Brown portrayed as truth. Anyone really grounded in their faith and who knows the truth will not be moved by an attempt such as this. I am sure that Mr. Romney will shake this off as nothing.~
ep1433 - I can absolutely see from your experience why you feel the way you do. I'm sorry that you have had these experiences, and I do know that there are, shall we say charitably, zealots out there. You seem to have encountered an overly large share. I do wish that you could have had the experiences I've had since leaving my church of origin. These are people who are simply spending their whole life worshipping, and doing what they can to spread the word of God, but not in that crazy "Baptist church in Kansas" kind of way that you seem to have encountered.
I do know that there are those in my own church who would tell you that my parents are now in hell, because they didn't believe in the Trinity. (They remained Christadelphians until their deaths) On the other hand I grew up and into my forties with the Christadelphians telling me that Evangelicals, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, LDS....OK you get the idea, that everyone was damned but them. So I no longer feel that I have the right to judge anyone, and don't want to hear it done around me, so maybe in a way I've also placed myself in a position where I don't hear the kind of things you've gone through.
How about we put it this way. There are some evangelicals who are licking their chops about the movie and it's impact on Mitt Romney's campaign. But they are people that neither you nor I would want to be around. There are also evangelicals you might like to spend the evening having dinner with, and discussing both their and your beliefs. I hope you meet only those kind from now on.
These people are not "Christians". "Christians" do not behave negatively as these folks are. Sincerely, I would suggest just going away and just ignoring them. Let them continue to talk to themselves. I would be very upset to have them in my congregation. You are a Mormon, and I respect your right to practice your religion as we are all entitled to in the U.S. This is what the founding parents of our nation expected of us as well. Over the past few years, we've seen what anger does to people when they are raging like this, such as at Virginia Tech. Best just let them alone so they can sit and smolder. It saddens me deeply, but I believe each person is going to be accountable for their own behavior. I feel you've been more than understanding and patient. Truly time to move on.
So now I am not a full-time missionary and as a result not the lightning rod I may have been. Has this diminished the harangues and harassment from Evangelicals? Hardly. Often when I attend a church event, groups of Evangelicals (sometimes quite large) are waiting in the crowd to be spoilers of an otherwise fun event (I'm talking about pageants and conferences). They shout damnation and seem to be full of anything but the Spirit of God. These are people who have come from far and wide, spending their own money and vacation time to tell me that I'm going to hell. Now you can claim that they are just concerned for my spiritual wellbeing. But you can't say they "don't give Mormons a second thought".
More recently, I have been interested to hear the reactions of friends and acquaintances to the campaign of Mitt Romney. Most are supportive. But some I have spoken with (Evangelicals) say they would never vote for a Mormon because it might give support to our cause (again, disinterested? I think not). One comment from a young friend attending a Christian college was instructive. She said her father taught her never to vote for a Mormon because we were "trying to take over the world". Hardly seems like the feelings of someone who is disinterested in my faith.
Ultimately I realize that my experiences are hardly a fair cross section of all members of group. And too often the vocal minority tend to speak for a group. But to ignore ones own experience is to never grow and learn. So now, I've put my hand in the mousetrap too often to expect anything other than a painful snap.
RBB - Is it possible I am exaggerating the interest in all things Mormons (especially the negative) on the part of Evangelicals? Sure, I'll concede that. But then, to be fair, allow me to offer you my perspective. Prior to my service as a full-time missionary for my church in Southern California I had assumed, that while we had definite differences, most Christians viewed the LDS with the disinterest you speak of.
However, while on my mission I seemed to consistently find Evangelicals trying to thwart the work I was engaged in via all manner of silliness. They would lie and tell me they would ‘love to have me teach them about my faith’, only to later bring in friends and pastors in an effort to gang up on me and deny me any opportunity to teach them as they had said I could. While I don't mind a spirited debate they had used deception to trick me into a fight. But I'm a big boy. No serious harm done. Some would also try to intercede with those were teaching by piling on them with stacks of books and tracts and videos that were what I would term "anti-Mormon". Again, I can take the harassment but the stacks of literature and media about Mormons that Evangelicals seem to have at their fingertips via church libraries doesn't indicate a faith that view the LDS with disinterest. But I tried to keep an objective, fair minded view of Evangelicals.
I realize these experiences represent a drop in a bucket but after many years, a preponderance of the evidence will tend to persuade even the most objective mind.
to be con't
Christians who hold tightly to the Bible with God's absolutes, are called bigots lots, CQUIRK, so this does not bother me. God is a God of absolutes...absolutely that He loves us, absolutely that He sent His only begotten Son to pay the world's debt of sin that we cannot even begin to pay, and absolutely that He has prepared a place with him in heaven when we leave our bodies in death. Scripture says that the way to life is narrow "and few there be that find it" , and "broad is the way to death because it the easy way without God". There is only One God in the Persons of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and there is only one book from God, the Bible. There is only one way to heaven believing and receiving as Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ, God the Son. It's a life of love, worship and devotion to Him and also making disicples His way...to take as many as possible to heaven, because God "does not want any to perish, but to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH and be saved." So, there are many false and deceptive ways to make your conscience feel good, but they are wrong. I have not said this, God Himself says so. Unfortunately as messengers of His message, we do get "shot" at, but if just one soul finds the truth and becomes saved with Christ as his savior, then it's worth it. So, call us bigots if you enjoy that, but we will continue to declare the REAL TRUTH of God's Word, the Bible, and refute the false ways that the devil rises up to draw people away from the truth laid out in God's Word. The line was drawn by God Himself and like it or not, this is "the way the truth and the life", there is no other way to God or heaven.
Mormonism is at best Pagan with a mixture of borrowed masonic rituals. They believe in three gods and they eventually seek to become god. The Mormon god is flesh and bone. On the other hand, the Christ in the Bible took on human flesh, in order to condemn sin in the flesh. The God of the Bible is Spirit (period).
A former mormon archaeologist has even confirmed that there was NO trace of jewish blood among the American indians in both north and south America which discredits the enitire storyline of the book of mormon rendering it to fantasy not reality.
In 1977, hundreds of thousands of mormons left mormonism after the original manuscript of the book of Abraham which Joseph Smith wrote was examined by an egyptologist who shockingly announced that the images on the clothe manuscript was NOT a translation from Eygtian at all. What was it? It was egytian pornography between Orisis and the snake-god Isis.
FEEL free to Download a free tract about the Truth about the JW's and MORMON's on the right-hand side bar of ==== >> http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
I also have a web site to prescribe....Google....UTAH LIGHTHOUSE MINISTRY...this will tell you what Mormon doctrine is all about in truth and will reveal the things they don't want you to know about Mr. Smith, and his phoney "gospel"...I highly recommend it...even to you LDS!
sorry....continued....then you are not HIS CHILD. Only those who come God's Way through Christ...not another manmade story, or some "other gospel" can be HIS...it's HIS way because He is the only true Creator God..."God is SPIRIT and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth" ...God is not flesh and blood with a wife! Lucifer is a CREATED ANGEL who rebelled against God and fell...Lucifer is NOT Jesus' spirit brother...sheesh! Man CANNOT BECOME A GOD...hello! We are man, HE is God. We are created beings, God has always existed. We come and WORSHIP God, not become a god. [Mr. Smith came up with "Plural marriage" and he had several wives! As did Brigham Young...about 20-ish or so. But God says, marriage is between ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN. AND...marriage is not carried on in heaven as Scripture says. Marriage is only for procreation on EARTH. Nope, Mormonism is nothing but a hatched lie in the mind of it's true author, Lucifer and he used Mr. Smith to peddle it.
ep1433 - Let's start with "speculation from prominent Evangelicals on the Christian Post ." While there is comment from one person, a man who from his bio appears to be an Episcopalian, not an Evangelical, who's job it is to review movies for a living, among other media, that's still only one man. There are no other prominent evangelicals in this article except for a quote from Dr. R. Albert Mohler, but his is a quote from a debate he had recently on Beliefnet concerning whether Mormonism is Christianity, not a quote in reference to this movie, or about Mitt Romney.
Being the mother of one, and the grandmother of two "drama queens" who are the masters of "a tempest in a teapot" I tend to be able to spot one when I see it. On the one hand you are saying it's not a vast number of evangelicals that are giddy about this silly movie, and it's possible impact on a man who will most certainly not be the Republican presidential candidate. Then you act as though all evangelicals are somehow getting a charge out of all this. I have news........they don't care. For the most part they don't give Mormons a second though, unless one is knocking at their door and they're trying to think of a way to get rid of them so they can go on with their life. It seems from all of this that you are indeed the one who is creating a tempest in a teapot.
Having grown up in a Christian cult such as the Mormons, I have a bit of experience with the Us vs Them attitude and the feeling that mainstream Christianity is somehow out to get you. What I found out after leaving, to my great surprise, was........they don't care. They don't give you a second though. They have their own lives to lead and are just trying to serve and worship God. I'm not telling you this to make you unhappy. I'm telling you this to try to make you understand that you can stop worrying that somehow the Evangelicals are out to get you, and you can go on with your life. Of course if what makes you happy is to think that there is someone trying to get you.... mazel tov.
And yes, CQUIRK...my name is written down in the Lamb's Book of Life...32 years now, by God's mercy , truth and grace. I have found by faith and also by experience that the Bible, God's almighty's ONLY Words to Mankind, that He is a faithful and just Creator God. He loves everyone on earth, however, if you don't belong to Him through Christ...NOT MORMONISM...then you are not HI
By the way....HAVE YOU NOTICED THAT NOT ONE OF THESE LDS's ADDRESSES THE DOCTRINAL ISSUES I NAMED? THAT'S BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT'S BUNK...PURE BUNK. Mr. Smith didn't want to be accountable to the true God, so he decided to become one himself...in his own mind! Then he came up with the fabrication telling others that if they embrace his new " new and improved true faith" that they would join this god-club and become one as well! The thing is, if you are not in God's Lamb's Book of Life, then you won't be spending eternity with Him, instead you will find yourself living separated from God, His mercy and His Savior Son, the REAL Lord Jesus Christ........and in hell with the TRUE AUTHOR OF MORMONISM...LUCIFER HIMSELF!
It's evident that Pastor is not a Bible believing Christian for sure! And this has turned out to be a "he said, she said" conversation. I will agree that this movie, though I have not seen it will most likely have little or nothing to do with Mitt Romney. Hollywood has a reputation on making loads of crapola movies. My issue is with the devilish DOCTRINE that the Mormons peddle. It is totally contrary to Holy Scripture in the Bible, God's infallible Word. Every point they preach is nothing but made up stories by a nut-case, Joseph Smith who was steeped in several forms of the occult...I mean what is the "stone" and those "glasses" he came up with...that is laughable to say the least!!! He was also into Free Masonry which is also Luciferic so, please don't even bring Mr. Smith's fabrications to the same table of discussion about the one true God, and the Lord Jesus Christ of Scripture! FYI...Mr. Smith plagerized large portions of the Book of Isaiah and renamed it..."Nephi" Yeah, he can't even be original in his fairytales. People are looking for genuine truth and the real God...but sometimes they get caught up in the muck and mire of a crafted counterfeit, such as Mormonism. Mormons work on 'good works'...becoming gods themselves they have been told...right...you bet they work with fervor! Heck, if I thought I might become a god and populate my own planet I'd go door to door too. Moromonism is error pure and simple.
Back to September Dung, which it's best called as, almost every movie critic in America, liberal or conservative has been bashing that movie to high heaven. And yes, it bombed and died at the Box office. Exactley- it didn't even make a million dollars on the weekend.
Plus the historical inaccuracy of it is almost overwhelming, in stupidity.
Which is why in reality, this movie will have little to no effect on Romney's campaign, except for becoming extra ammo for one or two anti-Mormon bigots.
Though it could find shelf life next to 'The Godmakers' in certain bookstores.
So you're not fooling anyone, Ethan. How about you write something that actually doesn't try dress up a poop turd to look like a donut? Yes?
If people REALLY want to know all about LDS or 'Mormonism', then I'll recomment this site-
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
To understand the beliefs of the Church rather then listen to the garbage spewed from "forloveofthecross" who has nothing but vile hate in his heart.
Or if not satisfied with that, then go to- www.fairlds.org -which answers the basic anti-Mormon accusations and misconceptions.
The "battle" is truth, God's eternal truth given in only one source, The Bible, against error, the false made up stories by different men/women throughout human history, and Mormonism is one of them.
=Then again, this biblical christianity you talk about is passages from the BIble that men such as you interpret to fit your unchristian bigoted view that you're right and we're all wrong.
It's so vital because we are talking about where the soul spends eternity, heaven or hell. Eternity is forever. There is a heaven to gain and a real hell to shun and the decision is ours.
=Exactely, because you need to worry about your own soul, since you're going against Matthew, Chapter 7 verse 1.
This verse in Proverbs is classic, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the ways thereof are death." The question is, is YOUR name written in God's Book of Life? The Lord Jesus Christ says, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man can come to the Father except by Me." With all due respect, Joseph Smith is not the way to God.
=Neither are you the way to God! Mormons do not worship Joseph Smith- I agree that only Jesus can save us and not Joseph. yet Brother Smith restored True Christianity -in my view- and stood against the creeds of man- such as the form of christianity that you preach.
RBB must have been reading the same report I read this year abt Mormon growth:
- It was formally organized in a small log cabin in upstate NY in 1830.
# It took 117 years — until 1947 — for them to grow from the initial 6 members to 1M. Missionaries were a feature of the Church from its earliest days, fanning out to Native American lands, to Canada &, in 1837, beyond the North American continent to England. Not long after, missionaries were working on the European continent & as far away as India & the Pacific Islands.
# The 2M-member mark was reached just 16 years later, in `63, & the 3M mark in 8 years more. This accelerating growth pattern has continued with about a million new members now being added every 3 years or less. Growth consists both of convert baptisms & natural growth through the birth of children.
# Church membership today is approaching 13M.
Let's see, at that rate, this "organization" to which ForloveofTHECROSS refers will be pretty dominant soon, Romney/not. Something must be attracting people. I've wondered what it is. Mormon folks I've known don't seem to be ignorant. 2 are hospital administrators. 1 is a Yale-grad attorney. Another a CPA. Another an elementary school teacher here in CA. Not that titles are important. Let's not be intimidated but, instead, make friends, be "Christians" toward them. It seems like all the publicity, negative/positive, is probably putting more wind in their sails. I don't have to join them. But, does not God love all his children?
RBB - While neither of us can claim to have any objective evidence o how many Evnagelicals care about this movie, I think the fact that it warranted an article and specualtion from prominent Evangelicals on the Christian Post puts a few points on my side. Certainly you can't offer anything more obejecive than that to substantiate your claim that it is only " 30 or so evangelicals (out of the millions) that care about this at all,". And what I was implying wasn't any vast numbers, just that Evangelicals seem to get giddy when someone tries to bad on Mormons. And as proof, I would submit this article. A small realease movie that few Americans have even heard of leads a major Christian website to predict trouble for a leading Presidential candidacy and a springboard for criticism of Mormon beliefs generally. Anyone else would have realized it was a tempest in a teacup but Evangelicals are all but predicting the end of Mormon Civilization. If that isn't "licking their chops" then I don't know what is. And there is your diagram.
fortheloveofTHECROSS - THanks for turning down the vitriol (from a 10 to an 8 but down nonetheless).
First, I think we all realize what the stakes are here. Mormons equally view Evangelicals as misguided in such a way as to lead them toward falsehood and away from Christ. That is one thing we each have in common. We each believe the other is wrong and we each believe it is eternally important.
The things is, we all know the stakes. But when you come ot of the gate making eternal judgements about Mormons (i.e. "going to hell") and claiming to know who is and who isn't Christian it doesn't make me think "Gee, this lady seems to be a fair minded person, perhaps I should hear her out". Instead I see you for what you are (or at least how you are behaving); judgemental and arrogant. And as neither of these traits sqaure with Christian behaviour I don't see much reason to go on listening.
You have more than a few facts completely wrong. Some are right, but again who you are speaks so loudly I can't hear what you are saying. If you want to be persuasive. If you really want people to believe that it is for "thelvoeoftheCROSS", make your method match your message.
ep1433~ The "battle" is truth, God's eternal truth given in only one source, The Bible, against error, the false made up stories by different men/women throughout human history, and Mormonism is one of them. It's so vital because we are talking about where the soul spends eternity, heaven or hell. Eternity is forever. There is a heaven to gain and a real hell to shun and the decision is ours. This verse in Proverbs is classic, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the ways thereof are death." The question is, is YOUR name written in God's Book of Life? The Lord Jesus Christ says, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man can come to the Father except by Me." With all due respect, Joseph Smith is not the way to God.
ep1433~ My heart truly goes out to you. Let's go back to the main issue I was discussing, the jesus you Mormons talk about is NOT the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible. Your jesus is Lucifer's spirit brother. Your heavenly father is flesh and blood and has a wife and together they make spirit babies in heaven waiting to come down in Mormon bodies. Mormons believe that if they are "good Mormons" they too will become a god and together with their many wives will populate your own planet. In your temple ceremonies you take death oaths if you tell the secrets there...the slitting of your throat, disemboweling, etc. Mormons do not believe the Bible is the infallible truth of the one true God and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. I am not interested in matching wits with you personally, I am taking to task your phoney "gospel" that Joseph Smith had to view through large glasses after he dug up the "golden tablets" from the dirt. Mormons believe in eternal marriage while the wife is perpetually pregnant populating your planet, which the Bible declares does not exist. Scripture declares that there is one God and one Savior and one gospel. FYI, gentiles are anyone other than Jews, not non-Mormons. THIS is the matter at hand, ep1433. It's your false doctrines that I dislike so much, not you personally, becauce those doctrines when adhered to damn souls to hell. PS I have very dear, beloved family friends who are Mormons whom I love very much.
ep1433 - Yes... please do draw me a diagram. Maybe a nice pie chart with lots of pretty colors. You can use a nice bright orange to represent the 30 or so evangelicals (out of the millions) that care about this at all, or might be "licking their chops" So what color are you going to make those with the phobia that the evangelicals are out to get them?
forloveofTHECROSS - It is comments like yours that make me completely suspicious of people like yourself (and by people I mean Evangelicals). Why do you view this discussion as a THEM versus US debate? PASTOR seems to be utilizing the God given objectivity that, since it equates to fairness and honesty is a trait of a true Christian. Whatever his faith, he's the kind of Pastor that I would find persuasive.
I gather from your criticisms of the LDS faith (my faith) that you hope to persuade folks like myselves of the 'error of our ways'. Yet from your tone you're unlikely to get anyone to listen unless you are simply looking for an echo chamber response from other Evangelicals.
Yet, if Pastor were to tell me that he has concerns about my faith and do so with the same balance and eye toward fairness I've seen here, I might actually listen.
Just my two cents.
Wow...Pastor...Makes me wonder just WHO'S side you are one...and what kind of a church you pastor! Yikes. Yer scary.
On comments about the MMM: I don't wonder abt the people who killed the people traveling in the wagon train other than why they did it. I try to imagine what would have motivated me, something to think abt. What I do wonder is if LDS headquarters ordered it. I guess I have to imagine myself living in that time when only horses were transportation. I looked the distance up in Google, 250 mi. How long would it take a rider to travel 250 mi. to learn a wagon train had arrived, then back the other way w/instructions. No one I know was present at a courtroom trial. It was a long time ago. I also wonder what the town's pop. was at the time, & how many people were not involved. Did anyone disagreed with this vigilante group, & decide to stay home that day? Did they leave LDS because they heard it was an order from SLC? I'd like to know this kind of information before I judge their whole church at the time, let alone judge their 13M members around the world today. I’m having a hard time understanding how a movie should hurt Romney’s image. What's more, I wonder what Jesus has told we "Christians" abt judging. Ouch! I remember when a Quaker was president. No one asked about it. The guy lost his job as he was a little dishonest. We had JFK, a RC, not a big enough deal to remember. People remember he was messing around w/Marilyn Monroe. The days following his death were pretty upsetting to the world, no matter what his religion. We now have GWB, SB. Is anyone paying attention to his religion? Some interesting thoughts about not letting a person's religion or history get in the way of who we elect: I lived in the Bible Belt. Here's an example of a group of people who had to be SB, but there was no evidence of any of their church leaders orchestrating the event. As late as 1907, 3 "colored" men were put in the slammer for raping a white girl. Before any trial, 3,000+ men & boys broke into the jail, hit these guys on the head with a hammer, hauled them into the Town Square, strung them up on a tower til dead, then dropped their bodies into a bonfire below. Even last year, in this town, we saw only all-white & all-black SB churches. Not much mixing of color in the town. Are churches or pastors behind this (I hope not, or find a different church or pastor.), or is it just people & their own private attitudes occasionally revealing themselves? Do we as "Christians" need to be looking only for good in others. Consider the Beatitudes, the life of our Savior. Should God be in our hearts at all times? Do we truly need to be making friends of Mormons as children of God? By being an enemy to them, ridiculing them, are we living on the edge of our own destruction? If we aren't grounded enough in our own faith, enough to be converted to another faith, who can we blame?
You must be kidding! Just check out Mormon doctrine and WHO they say Jesus is to them...they say their Jesus is Lucifer's spirit brother...hello! They say that their god is a man with a wife who have "spririt babies" together waiting to come down to earth in Mormon bodies. They say that THEY become gods themselves and fill their own planets! This is plainly NOT the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible. The husband is responsible for "calling up" his wife from the grave to resurrection... My Bible tells me that the Lord Jesus Christ calls me out of the grave to be with Him in heaven where He alone is God Almighty! I have studied with the Mormon missionaries and was baptized in the local stake. After some time I had to fill out a lengthy form as to why I wanted out of this, "organization"...in other words, I was not free to go without a satisfactory explanation to some man who sat in judgement over my statement before I my name would be exponged from their "eternal records" in Salt Lake City. I repeat Mormons are NOT Christians. You may want to argue this point until dooms day, but this is the truth. Mormons have the same "termonology" as Christians, but the meanings behind what they really mean are vastly different. Just ask them when they come to your door. Ask them questions about who they think god is and who Jesus is to them.
I wonder how many other "Christians" attended an R-rated movie? Do we need to examine our motives, words, and how we will face God in the next life? What is a Christian?
Ethan Cole and the other anti-Mormons who have pushed their views in this thread follow the ethics typical of all anti-Mormon: the end justifies the means. "Since Mormonism is evil, it is OK to say or do anything that hurts Mormonism."
Those who succumb to this argument come under the influence of the father of all lies and dull their sensitivity to the truth in all aspects of their lives. Such ethics lead down the same path that took anti-Semitism to its logical conclusion -- the Holocaust.
It is hardly surprising the most strident anti-Mormons are Protestants, because the founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, was also the founder of German anti-Semitism.
Google: ["Martin Luther" "on the Jews and their Lies"]
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr'gmail'com
Come on, people, do you just blindly believe everything you see or read? I learned a long time ago that you cannot trust third parties to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, especially in an election year. Mormons have taken responsibility for the massacre; even their September magazine has an 8 page article on the massacre in which they acknowledge wrong decisions and action taken by local Mormon leadership in direct opposition to counsel received from Brigham Young. Read the accounts, read different histories and you will discover that there are many accounts of the massacre, most of which disagree on even the most basic of events leading up to, during, and following the terrible event. This film is not historically accurate. To believe it means you have more of a problem than does Romney; this is not even going to be more than a blip on the screen for him, soon forgotten as greater, more important issues are debated.
TO those who condemn the Mormons to eternal damnation, I would say, be very careful. Only God speaks for God and you are not in a position to claim to be His spokesperson. Christ said love all and judge not that we be not judged. The kinds of jibes and attacks against Mormons taking place here just shows how far we are from the ideal of Christ. Even Peter was chided for calling unclean those things the Lord was now calling clean. You do not know the mind of the Lord; be careful when you claim you know the eternal end of anyone. Only God knows and only God decides.
Where's the balance in this article? Like the fact that this movie opened to abysmal reviews and horrible box office returns? Like the fact that there is absolutely no proof that Brigham Young had any involvement with the massacre? To me, it seems like the author's sole purpose of the article is to flame anti-Mormon sentiments. Next time, try talking to more than one person when writing an article if you want it to be believable and have the Christian Post taken seriously.
And while it is completely off topic, I love the classic "you believe in a different Jesus" arguement, really I do. Thanks forloveofTHECROSS. That one is a classic.
I didn't realize there were two Jesus'. I thought there was just one. Personally I believe in Jesus Christ. Was there someone named Jesus Rubenstein that maybe you are referring to? Was he Christs next-door neighbor in Nazareth? Oh yeah, I remember him. CPA right? Nice fella. We met him at the Goldman Barmitzvah.
Is that the "other Jesus" you are reffering to?
Come on. Honestly, with criticisms like "They are accused of blatant sin, and other horrible things." where should one even begin to respond. I certainly hope you aren't referring to every last one of the millions of LDS the world-over loveofTHECROSS. That's quite an accusation. Please tell me what sin I am accused of. My wife would probably like to know what I've been up to.
Funny, many of you used this article as a springboard to attack the LDS faith but not one seems to be disputing that this film blatantly, flatout lies. Do lies simply not concern you? I could easily make many nasty movies about Evangelicals if I simply lied.
I guess Evangelicals just aren't the type of people to let truth get in the way of a good propaganda film. I had hoped that those that call themselves Christian would have a higher regard for truth. Guess not.
Sad fact is, this is a story worth telling. It shouldn't be whitewashed and it shouldn't be exagerrated. But unfortunately this ain't the film to do it. And nearly every last critic agrees.
RBB - I get the idea that Evangelicals are licking their chops 1.) from this very article (flick may hurt Romney?! come on), and 2.) from the many posts on other websites such as IMDB and others (just look at Nauvoo Christians post above - he can barely hide his glee). If that ain't "licking their chops I don't know what is. Would you'd like me to diagram it for you RBB?
Mormons/LDS are not Christians, not in the very least. The Jesus they talk about is not the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible. In fact, although they hold up the Bible as a "front" to their religion, they do not believe in it's truth. Their "holy books" are the Book of Morman and they also follow Doctrines and Covenants and Pearls of Great Price...all of which are nothing but made up in the twisted mind of Josheph Smith who dabbled in Free Masonry. In fact, in their temple services there is Masonry mixed in with the other untrue ceremonials that go on and also Masonry symbols. They baptize for the dead, and if an LDS even tries to leave it's hell for them. They are accused of blatant sin, and other horrible things. The Mountain Medow Masacre did happen, but the Mormons try to imply that outsiders made it up. Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young sought out very young girls and claimed that God said they were to be their wives...they had several, and that's sick. When the President of the U.S at the time refused Brigham statehood for Utah unless they recanted plural marriage, all of a sudden "God changed his mind and said, okay, no more plural marriage on earth"...strange huh?! Everything about Mormonism is phoney. Mormonism is a devilish cult. God help us to love these misguided souls into the truth of the real gospel of the true Jesus Christ, God the Son.
This was sent to me by a Christian friend who saw the movie:
My wife, myself and our son went to the movies last night and saw September Dawn. Words cannot express how I felt watching that movie. The lies, the deceit, the cold blooded murders, the twisted scripture, the brain washing... and all in blasphemy using the name of the LORD as the source of their commands! My prayer is that the LORD will use this movie to open the eyes of the Mormon community so they'll see the truth.
I could not tell you when the last time was that I saw a movie that made such an impact on me... I was nearly exhausted after it was over.
150 years ago this year on September 11th this massacre took place and has been covered up by the Mormon Church. I know four of the descendants who will be in Mountain Meadows along with many others demanding that the Mormon Church let them finally buried their dead...THE TRUTH IS FINALLY COMING OUT!
Mormonism is at best Pagan with a mixture of borrowed masonic rituals. They believe in three gods and they eventually seek to become god. The Mormon god is flesh and bone. On the other hand, the Christ in the Bible took on human flesh, in order to condemn sin in the flesh. The God of the Bible is Spirit (period).
A former mormon archaeologist has even confirmed that there was NO trace of jewish blood among the American indians in both north and south America which discredits the enitire storyline of the book of mormon rendering it to fantasy not reality.
In 1977, hundreds of thousands of mormons left mormonism after the original manuscript of the book of Abraham which Joseph Smith wrote was examined by an egyptologist who shockingly announced that the images on the clothe manuscript was NOT a translation from Eygtian at all. What was it? It was egytian pornography between Orisis and the snake-god Isis.
FEEL free to Download a free tract about the Truth about the JW's and MORMON's on the right-hand side bar of ==== >> http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
ep1433 - I'm afraid that you're laughing at nothing then. I don't know where you got the idea that evangelicals are "licking their chops" over this movie, but sorry to disappoint, they couldn't care less.
Bot - Before you make the claim that Mormonism adheres to Early Christianity, you need to read more Early Christian writings. You will find that you are mistaken.
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often misunderstood . . Some accuse the Church of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion . . http://mormonsarechristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's understanding of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement. The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres to Early Christian theology more closely than other Christian denominations.
First, I have to laugh at all the Evangelicals licking their chops about this movie. But be warned, taking common cause with Hollywood is a double-edged sword.
More importantly, this movie will have little to no effect on Romney. The reviews have universally panned the movie as an inept attempt at propaganda. The woman who wrote the script described her anti-Mormon agenda in a colorado news article.
No Mormon (except perhaps an igorant one) will dispute that the Massacre occurred and that it was awful and unjustified. What this film does is takes complete liberty with the facts by claiming Brigham Young ordered the massacre.
Is that possible? Sure, as much as anything is possible. Is it likely that Young ordered the attacks or more importantly is it supported by facts? No.
So the movie lies or takes artistic license in order to porpogandize the audience. It is unlikely to show in more than a few theaters if at all. It is slammed for it's bad acting. And Mitt Romney should be worried? Come on.
Sorry Evangelicals. Better luck next time.