A Presbyterian theologian is visiting several churches this fall refuting the common Christian interpretation of the Bible that Jesus and Scripture opposes homosexuality.
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(Photo: University of South Carolina / File)
Jack Rogers, professor of Theology Emeritus at San Francisco Theological Seminary, is trying to get a positive word out in the Christian churches about the gay and lesbian community and thinks churches should be leading the charge for their equal rights.
“I’m trying to help people understand that the Bible rightly interpreted, which I would think is through the lens of Jesus’ redemptive life and ministry ... does not condemn Christian people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered," said Rogers, according to The Lawrence Journal-World.
He makes that argument in the book Jesus, the Bible and Homosexuality: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church. The former Fuller Theological Seminary professor and former moderator of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) launched his fall book tour last week and is currently making stops at churches and ministries to speak on the controversial topic.
Rogers says those who argue that the Bible condemns gays and lesbians are taking biblical literalism too far and feels there is excessively negative words in the religious community, according to the Journal-World.
His fall tour comes as Daniel Karslake's documentary "For the Bible Tells Me So" was set to release in Manhattan on Friday. The film supports homosexuals and presents the religious right as misusing the Bible to condemn gay people.
Amid increasing efforts by some to equate the condemnation of sin with the condemnation of sinners, conservative critics have expressed regret over what they say is a misapplication of Scripture.
"Scripture is God’s Word written," communications coordinator Jenny Noyes of the conservative Anglican Communion Network has said. "Man’s sinful mis-application of Scripture does not negate the authority or truth of it today.”
The Anglican Communion Network along with the worldwide Anglican Communion holds that homosexual practice is incompatible with Scripture. Most mainline denominations stand on similar positions but have been wracked with division as homosexuality has become one of the most hotly debated issues in the Church today.
Craig Detweiler, director of Reel Spirituality, a think-tank for pastors and filmmakers at Fuller Theological Seminary said Karslake's documentary "represents one side (pro-homosexual) of an ongoing argument, and the filmmakers seemed very interested in evoking a reaction.”
“I think film at its best starts conversations, but this conversation will continue for quite some time," he said, according to The Canadian Press.
Since his book release in 2006, Rogers has given some 60 presentations on the debated topic and a third of his audiences have been gay and lesbian people wanting to hear that God loves them, he said.
While more evangelical Christians have come to recognize the need to preach love to homosexuals, they say they are trying to meet that need – but without compromising the truth.
"Often Christians think that to love a homosexual is a compromise of their Christianity, that somehow their love would be misconstrued as condoning homosexuality," according to Christine Sneeringer, director of Worthy Creations, an Exodus International ministry – one of the nation's largest organizations dealing with homosexuality.
But Christians are called to love their neighbor, she said, and a Christian's message must balance love and truth – the truth being that homosexuality is a sin.
Ex-gay Tim Wilkins, a Baptist, also teaches congregations across the country that the Church has a responsibility to proclaim that homosexuality is a sin. At the same time, however, he tells them they have a responsibility to share the redemptive message of Christ.
"Homosexuality is a sin and freedom from same-sex attractions is available through Jesus Christ," he says.
Rogers, who acknowledges in his book that he has not specialized in the issue as a biblical scholar, says he did not always support homosexuality. It wasn’t until his pastor charged him in 1993 to be a part of a study at the church on the issue and after months of studying the Bible on matter of homosexuality that Rogers had a change of heart. And now he's sharing that change of his understanding with other Christians.
Rogers' next lecture and book signing is scheduled for Oct. 9 at Grace Covenant Church in Overland Park, Kan.
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The word of God is Spirit and they are revealed/interpreted by the Holy Spirit.Those in the flesh will not understand the correct and true meaning as God intended it to be.Those in the flesh are those who have personal attachment(either are gay or just angry) and are not doing this discussion for the benefit of the Church but for their own satisfaction and gratification.
Ephesians 4:14
Pander is not just a bear from China.
Do the you think there is any harm in not promoting sex, alcohol and drugs.....
God is the judge, Gays maybe saved, but clearly if we can not tell or sell grace I would stick with tradition, and this standard has caused suffering to the upright, and glorified the "sinner" Ironic hun?
Let God be the judge people.
1man makes a lot of sense about bible transcripts, but one argument scholars use about the quality of manuscripts is that when you compare the thousands and thousands of Greek manuscripts (which 99% agree) you can eliminate copy errors and changes. This works something like 30 people copy a book, and the 30 copies are compared for typos. All will have typos but usually 29 won't have any given typo found in any single other manuscript. So by synthesizing the 30 copies, you probably get an original copy.
Here's a quick link to a site that covers most the arguments about manuscript reliability. http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/ca/ca_06.htm
As for interpretation of language and meaning: although the 66 books of the bible were written over 1500 years in three languages, they all have a single clear message which transcends questions of intrepretation. That message is that we're sinful, God provides a saviour, and we're nuts not to agree to both those propositions. ;o)
Rogers says those who argue that the Bible condemns gays and lesbians are taking biblical literalism too far .....What I'm saying is that even basic simple sentences in the Bible are open to interpretation. You can believe in the Bible, but we are reading a very flawed book, one riddled with errors, as any biblical scholar will tell you. Then compound that with the fact that it has been translated through several languages and was written over 200 years ago, and you find that interpretation is a very tricky thing. All scholars note that there are tricky issues of interpretation with Shakespeare's language, and that is in the original language and only 400 years old.
If you want the literal word of God, you would need the original texts in Greek and Aramaic, before all the errors of copies were made. But those simply don't exist.
I'm sorry but the bible is one of the most completely preserved books in history....to concede these statements would be to concede faith in them which if that is the case why are you trying to justify any particular interpretation or mis-interpretation? Isn't that futile if there are no original texts preserved? That's like saying hey I went outside and there was a flying pink elephant only problem is if you go out to look for him he dis appears,, a man goes out to check the validity of the statement and finds no elephant and I say I told you he dis-appears.
I don't know if Rand503 checked this Robert J. Gagnon out on Former E's suggestion, but I'm sure glad I did. He's WAY out there. I hope he gains more visibilty, so that people can see where this extremist all-or-nothing view of the bible leads.
Rand503
May I suggest that you read some of Robert J. Gagnon's work. He is an associate professor of New Testament at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. You may gain a better understanding of 1Cor 6:9-10, Romans 1: 26-27 and the meanings of malakoi and arsenokoita.
There are many biblical passages that refer to customs, that were believed then, that now we chalk up to being obsolete now, yet we continue to hold onto the anti-gay stuff? It's hypocrtical, to say the least.
1 Timothy 4:1
[ The Great Apostasy ] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1-3 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
2 Peter 2:1
[ Destructive Doctrines ] But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1-3 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 2:4
[ Doom of False Teachers ] For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
2 Peter 2:3-5 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 2:12
[ Depravity of False Teachers ] But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
2 Peter 2:11-13 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 2:18
[ Deceptions of False Teachers ] For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
2 Peter 2:17-19 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Let me give just one example of how dangerous it is to take a 'literal' reading of the Bible. Timothy says that there are group of people who won't make it to heaven, including adulterers, thieves, etc. Today, many bibles include the word 'homosexuals.' My Bible, which was printed in 1850, uses the word 'effeminate."
(1 Timothy 1:9-11).
There are two major issues to consider when one approaches these passages: translation and sexual practices of Greek culture. A comparison of these verses in several translations of the Bible indicates that there is some confusion about how to translate two Greek words in these lists of vices Paul has enumerated. The two words are arsenokoitai which is rendered in various translations as “homosexuals,” “sodomites,” “child molesters,” or “perverts” and malakoi which is rendered in various translations as “catamites,” “the effeminate,” or “boy prostitutes.”
These Greek words are difficult to translate in the context of these passages. Malakoi is a common term and means “soft.” It can refer to clothing (Matthew 11:8) or moral matters, meaning “undisciplined.” Arsenokoitai is a rare word and is made up of arseno meaning “man,” and koitai meaning “bed, lying, or having sex with.” When put together the word may mean “male prostitutes.”
So which is it? Did Timothy mean all gay men? Lesbians? Only male prosititutes? Or any boy who throws a ball like a girl? And why does my Bible, which is KJV, say effeminate, but not homosexual? Who changed it since then, and why?
You'd better be darn sure before you claim to know the word of God.
altrisk: But there are many Christians who read the exact same Bible and find no need to be 'born again' and think that you are reading it wrong. Who is right?
Chris, some people, including the Mormons, believe that masturbation is a sin. Others believe not. Who is right? The Cathlicis used to believe that eating meat on Friday was a sin. Then they changed it and said it is not. Perhaps you don't like it, but the Southern Baptists for over 100 years believed that the Bible sanctioned slavery. What about the Commandmand against killing? Some people believe it's okay to kill in time of war, others' do not. Some believe euthanasia is okay, some do not. Some say it's okay to kill in self defense, others do not.
What I'm saying is that even basic simple sentences in the Bible are open to interpretation. You can believe in the Bible, but we are reading a very flawed book, one riddled with errors, as any biblical scholar will tell you. Then compound that with the fact that it has been translated through several languages and was written over 200 years ago, and you find that interpretation is a very tricky thing. All scholars note that there are tricky issues of interpretation with Shakespeare's language, and that is in the original language and only 400 years old.
If you want the literal word of God, you would need the original texts in Greek and Aramaic, before all the errors of copies were made. But those simply don't exist.
And if the word is so clear, then why are there so many different intrepretations on so many areas within Christianity?
All I'm saying is that you might be wrong. personally, I think it is pretty arrogant to think that anyone knows the one whole absolute truth of God, but that's just me.
Rand,
No it is not reinterpreting the Bible, it is rewriting it. That is the only way you are going to make a case that it approves of homosexuality. I do not want to get into another argument about this, but the Bible does not say slavery is good.
Also, it does not matter if every church in the world says that something is right. It only matters what the word of God says.
Just because he is a theologian doen not mean he is saved. 2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. In fact I am convinced that a truly born-again child of God will never reject or twist the true meaning of Gods beloved Word.
"You will know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free" !!! Joh 8:32
Actually, there are several mainstream churches that find that homosexuality is no sin. That includes reformed and conservative Judaism, many of the Episcopal and Prysbeterian churches, the Unitarian and Universalist churches, as well as the MCC. Many biblical scholars have found there is no evidence to support condemnation of gays. It is to these churches that gays have found the most acceptance, and so they go there.
I'm not talking about rewriting the bible. I'm talking about re-interpreting it. Not too long ago, there were people who were absolutely sure that the Bible supported and endorsed slavery. Today, you will find virtually none. What changed? Not the Bible, but a better understanding of what truth really is.
Jack Rogers makes a good case, but he's far from the only one. There is quite a bit of biblical scholarship that finds that your interpretation may not be right on the mark. I would recommend a book, "What the Bible Really Says ABout Homosexuality" to see that other, equally sincere, equalily inquisitive, find that the condemnation of gays isn't as solid as you think, and might actually not even exist.
Well then Rand, we would need to rewrite the Bible. If you rewrite the Bible then who is to say that pedophilia is a sin?
What if the real truth were, as this Pastor suggests, that homosexuality is NOT a sin? Then what?
We know from Paul’s writings that at the last trump, when the trumpet sounds the dead in Christ will rise first and those believers on earth will be changed in an instant and receive our new immortal bodies 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, “Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
This raises the question, if there had already been a Christian rapture seven years earlier, why would Paul be telling them that he expects them to still be on earth (remembering that Paul did not know the timing of the Lord’s return and wrote with the expectation that perhaps it would be during his lifetime)?
Did Noah get saved from the flood? or through the flood? Did Shardrac, Meshac and abendigo get saved from the fire? or through the fire? Did Daniel get saved from the Lion's den? or through the Lion's den? Did christ get saved from crucifixion? or through it? Did the Jews get saved from the 10 plagues of Egypt? or through the 10 Plagues of Egypt? And the list goes on, none were raptured away.
hey Prophet, i noticed on another post that you email "The Watch". How can I go about getting an email address so I can communicate with you a little more about apologetics, end times, etc? ANd if one is not available, then don't worry dude; i can always post on the site and talk to you here. Happy Thanksgiving.
fallen_miracle:
"If you are referring to a secret rapture, than I must add that belief is not biblical, and was started by a plymouth brethren leader by the name of Darby, and later taken on by Hal Lindsey in his book"The late, great planet earth" which is a book that has poor theology in it"
let me ask you one question: Do you study greek and latin? The word harpazo and rapturo do appear biblically, and there is sufficient proof biblically to substantiate for a "snatching away" (rapturiong) of the saints prior to God's Wrath (The Great Tribulation) being poured out in the book of Revelation, so I would have to say that you are trully missing a point here, and this is not poor theology. Look at the whole context of Scripture my brother. God did not poor out His wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah until the righteous - Lot and his wife were removed. Lot's wife of course turned her head in disobedience after the angel of the Lord told her not to (this can be compared to the Christian that turns their back on God to return to the world), and the fruit of her sin was turning into a pillar of salt. I can also name the FLood and how God poured out His wrath on sinful humanity after He told the righteous man Noah to build an ark and God gave sufficient time for the people to repent and go with Noah, but they refused, and kept on eating and drinking, etc......Then the Flood came and wiped out the rebellious to God, but the key point is that God spared/protected the righteous from His wrath being pourted out. The Bible does not promise believers a rosy road in the park all the time; we wil have tribulations and trials, but this is way different in context to a Great Tribulation being poured out on sinful man. SO don't say this is poor thelogy. Read the whole counsel of God; not just the parts that you would like to interpret for yourself. What bridegroom batters his wife to be prior to the wedding? Christ is our Bridegroom, and if we as His Bride are ready, then we wil be raptured. Jesus said to pray that we may be counted worthy to escape these things.
Prophet:
go to http://www.raptureready.com/...., and do not be dismayed.
Of course it was a physical place!! look around you, everything of nature you see is what is left of Eden, and the broken up continents we all live on. But on the day that Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge they died spiritually and were booted out of that realm, no longer being able to converse face to face with God.
so the garden of eden wasn't a physical place?
It could well be, but in the spiritual dimension that we were kicked out of when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden.
do you believe that where God and his angels "exist' is a geographical area somewhere withing our universe?
i am what i am....as popeye would say.
so a spiritual place in a physical world.....
If you have broadband than watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRAu4qkwBys&feature=related
Heaven is going to be here on the new earth. And are you a pentecostal?
Isaiah 65 sounds like a new earth to me...
and revelations..yes..."adorned as a Bride"....and don't forget later on in that chapter "...And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;..." there it is again...the Bride of Christ....
There is so much more scripture that talks about heaven, this is only a small taste. Judging by your limited knowledge of scripture, I am going to take a guess and say you belong to a pentecostal charismatic church?
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them, and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." (NASB) Revelation 20:1-4
And there will no longer be heard in her the voice of weeping and the sound of crying. No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Shall be thought accursed. And they shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall also plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build, and another inhabit, they shall not plant, and another eat; for as the lifetime of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, and My chosen ones shall wear out the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain, or bear children for calamity; for they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD, and their descendants with them. It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. (NASB) Isaiah 65:19-24
Speaking of how the animals will be in Heaven Isaiah 11:7 Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
In the beginning humans were in relationship with God, the earth and each other. The fall damaged these relationships, but each of them will be perfectly restored in heaven. All the ‘sketches’ of life in the new heaven and new earth are corporate rather than individualistic. For example, a perfect city (Hebrews 13:14) and a wedding feast (Revelation 19:7-10). Despite the importance of relationships in heaven it appears that marriage won’t be a component of our heavenly life. Matthew 22:30 says, “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”
Christians often speak of ‘living with God in heaven for ever’. However, the Bible provides us with a much fuller picture. It speaks of the destruction and subsequent renewal of all creation (2 Peter 3:10-13) - a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1). All of creation will be set right (Romans 8:18-21) and there will be no more pain and suffering (Revelation 21:4).
Many people believe that heaven is just a ‘state of being’. However, the Bible clearly describes it as a place (John 14:2-4). In Acts 1:9-11 we read of Jesus’ resurrection body returning to heaven and Paul in his letters to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 15:35-49 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-10) speak of how in heaven we will have resurrection bodies that will last forever. Heaven is not just a state of being, nor is it a place where just our ‘spirits’ live forever; it’s a real place where we will have real bodies.
"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him" (I Cor.2:9).
"And they shall see His face; His name shall be on their foreheads and there shall no longer be any night and they shall not have need of the light of the lamp nor of the light of the sun because the Lord God shall illumine them and they shall reign forever and ever." [Rev. 22:4-5]
and, no, the Bible doesnt talk about heaven. show me the scripture....
And i, too, have used Bible quotes. but you will say that i've twisted them, or interpreted them a certain way. which I could accuse you fo the same...ergo that's why i said that the POSSIBILITY is there that you could be misleading me. I capitilized that word because you apparently didn't read in my last post where i said "I'm not saying that you are, but it could be just as true as not.". All you heard was that you were misleading me. but i will say this..you are way too argumentive.
How am I trying trying to mislead you? All I have done is used bible quotes, i have stuck to the word of God. And nobody knows when the day comes if they are going to stand or fall, for there is going to be many who say Lord, Lord that will not make it into heaven. And the bible does talk a little about Heaven, its going to be here on earth, God is going to make us the capital of the Universe and replant the garden of Eden. It also says that the Lion will lay down with the Lamb and eat straw, and that the beasts from the wild shall be led by a child, all references to the fact that we will all be restored back to our vegetarian ways as it says everything was in Genesis.
fallen miracle...i know this will probably offend you, but what if YOU'RE trying to mislead ME? I'm not saying that you are, but it could be just as true as not. My conscience is clear before God. I know when that day comes, my relationship with Him will be strong enough to endure. I know that even now there are teachings that are preached from the pulpits that reek with compromise, deception, immorality, etc. If you want to piddle around with trivial things like what happens after we die, while you ignore the man that preaches the toleration of homosexuality, then go ahead. If you want to get trivial...think about this...the Bible never describes heaven. I have my beliefs about that, but I don't go around smacking everyone in the head with it like a baseball bat trying to get them to see my opinion. I'm too busy trying to just get them to see that they should love like Chrst did. Sure, I could get them to see my point and even concede! But if i haven't shown, or taught, them love...i've failed.
This is the thing, you are missing the whole point of God's message, which is a dangerous thing to do I might add, since we are in the last days and once the man of sin appears and starts performing miracles it says "That even the very elect may be deceived", so if you don't know what the bible truly says about the state of the dead and other things as well you won't stand a chance. So don't say I am not trying to educate you out of love.
let me repost what i said earlier:
But you're missing my point anyway...i was using that as an example...not so you could use it as a springboard to begin another debate, or to insult me. you are an argumentive person. I can handle talking to someone about differences of opinion, but not with someone who claims to be a Christian, but can't extend Christs love to a brother. My convictions run deep...as do my conviction about love.
wow, fallenmiracle, you're still not getting it. you're so wrapped in arguing points, that you're not getting the point.
If you are referring to a secret rapture, than I must add that belief is not biblical, and was started by a plymouth brethren leader by the name of Darby, and later taken on by Hal Lindsey in his book"The late, great planet earth" which is a book that has poor theology in it.
But why does He need to rapture us? Why can't he just come back and wipe out the sinners. But you're missing my point anyway...i was using that as an example...not so you could use it as a springboard to begin another debate, or to insult me. you are an argumentive person. I can handle talking to someone about differences of opinion, but not with someone who claims to be a Christian, but can't extend Christs love to a brother. My convictions run deep...as do my conviction about love.
What is the point of Jesus coming back the second time? umm because he is going to put an end to sin and suffering, and restore this world to its Edenic state so we can live eternally in paradise the way we were meant to from the start. You better start reading your bible.
There are many things that we don't understand why God does them the way He does. What's the point in Jesus coming back a second time anyway!? What's the purpose? Why doesn't he just rapture those who are living and get right to the judgment? I don't know. I'm not God. And there's things I will never know. But it's just the way it is.
So if when you die you go straight to heaven, than what is the point of God coming back to raise the dead and judge the world?
Oh, yes...the infamous "symbolism" defense. good comeback. But jesus did die that day....and the souls that were mentiioned in Revelation are literal.
And as I said, when Jesus was raised and the disciples saw him he said "do not touch me, for I have not yet gone to my father in heaven". So he didn't go to paradise with the thief when he died.
For starters revelation is a prophetic book full of symbolism you don't take literally, so the souls crying under the altar for the avenging of their blood is the same as Abel's blood cried out to the Lord when he died.
Revelations 6:9-10 says "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" This was way before the judgment...so how can they be in God's presence?
According to the Word of God, Jesus died during the ninth hour...which is from noon to 3pm. You said ...quote ...."according to Jewish tradition and as expressed in the Bible, a day begins when the sun goes down." The sun had not gone down yet. Because it also says in Matthew 27:57 "When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple: He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered." When the evening came....which was some time after Jesus died....which would THEN be the next day. I have never known the sun to go down at 3 pm except maybe in Alaska.
But, then again...according to you...i don't READ the Bible.
He died the next day. You better start reading your bible and doing a bit of studying prophet, cos its not only me that knows about the comma thing, ask any top theologian in the world and they will tell you exactly what I am. Also as I have said, when he was raised from the dead and appeared to the disciples he said "Do not touch me, for I have not yet gone to my Father in heaven".
Oh...so Jesus died 4 days later?
Well I think the biggest thing backing up my argument apart from all the things i've already said is Jesus DID NOT die on that day. So for you to say the comma goes there is for you to say that Jesus stuffed up and got it wrong.
I wish i could move commas around as I please...to suit my purpose. Who's to say that where you think the comma should go is the correct place? No one but you.
I must also add about the statement to the thief on the cross, that not only did Jesus not die on that day, but when he was raised from the dead He said "Do not touch me, for I have not yet gone to my Father in Heaven". Then you can say that it says he ministered to the spirits in prison while he was dead, but if you read that whole verse properly he is actually talking about back in the days of Noah.
And for your answer to second corinthians read this-
http://www.amazingfacts.org/FreeStuff/OnlineLibrary/tabid/106/ctl/ViewMedia/mid/447/IID/7/LNG/en/7/Absent-From-the-Body/SC/R/Default.aspx
You say the bible says "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." But I tell you that the jews didn't use commas in their language, so when King James interpreted the bible he added them in, so all of a sudden you can look at it like this as well "Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise." Jesus didn't even die that day, so do you think the son of God got it wrong?
"Theologians" can claim whatever they want, but if they claim to be Christians, yet distort the Truth and infallability of God and His Word, then they are false teachers and heretics who need to repent of their ways. If they claim to be lead by the Bible, then they need to abide by it. Here is what the Word of God says on the matter:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
fallen miracle
Ok..now I know where you are going with this. You were not very clear on your earlier posts. It sounded as if you were doing away with heaven and eternal life. But I see what you are saying. yes, i see the validity of your argument. Some say the everyone who dies go to a "holding place" that is neither heaven nor hell, until the judgement. Some say what you've said. But the argument comes up when Jesus (the author of our faith) tells the thief "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Apparently, Jesus knew something that we don't. But, once again, I apologize because I thought you were trying to do away with heaven and eternal life. You were merely stating your opnion on when eternal life begins.
It is written in Second Corinthians 5:6-8 "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." To me that says something about death and heaven. But to believe your way, or mine, doesn't remove the truth of our eternal hope. Of that, I hope that we both agree.
People also mention that the breaking of bread proves that a communion service was held. In Mat. 14:19 Christ broke bread to feed the multitudes, even though there is no mention of communion or Sabbath. Also it tells us in Acts 2:46 that they went to the Temple and broke bread from house to house "daily". Again there is no mention of communion or Sabbath. The final conviction that some have with these verses is that Paul was preaching on this day. There are many instances of the gospel being taught and preached on non-specific days as well as daily. One example is in Mark 2:1-2 another is Luke 19:47-20:1 where it clearly indicates that Christ himself taught and preached daily. There is no significance given to the day, the breaking of bread, nor the preaching, they are merely mentioned. The focus of the story is about Eutychus, his accident, and his resurrection.
Some people believe Acts 20:7 holds evidence that Paul worshipped on Sunday as the "new Sabbath. One must remember, according to Jewish tradition and as expressed in the Bible, a day begins when the sun goes down. This means that this meeting was held on what we know as Saturday night. That would make the next morning and afternoon the second part of the first day. Surely we know that Paul would not have walked eighteen miles from Traos to Assos on the first day if it had been the new holy day. Much less then boarded a boat and continue to travel to Mitylene and finally on to Chios. Paul was a lifelong Sabbath keeper and if the first day was now the Sabbath, this journey would have been contrary to his character. Paul actually was keeping Sabbath by waiting until the first day to continue his “work“.
Everything you have just said is non-biblical and you just speculating on what you think it will be like, and not what the bible says its going to be like. When you die you are dead until the second coming, then you will be raised from the dead and judged wether you will being going to heaven, or being destroyed in hell never to exist again. Even Jesus didn't go to heaven when he died, he was dead in the ground for 3 days. And as for the Hebrews verse, that fits in with my exact point, you will die once, and the next thing you are gonna know is the Judgement at the end of the world, and to those who are dead its gonna be in the twinkling of an eye. Because to the them the exact moment when they die and the second coming when jesus will raise everyone from the dead is going to seem like a split second.
Fallen miracle...thanks for all the scriptures about PHYSICAL death. But that doesn't answer the question of eternal life....which is spiritual. I do believe that when we die and go to heaven that we probably will have no recollection of anything that went on here on earth. But that may be wrong too. Because when we stand before God, He will make account of all our deeds we have done here on earth. So there would have to be some recollection of what went on here on earth.
But as far as the scriptures you quoted, that deals with physical death. Hebrews 9:27. "For it is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgement."
You quoted "As a man knows nothing before he is born, neither shall he know anything after he is dead." Could you please supply a scripture reference so I can look it up. Thanks. I'm sure I've heard that, but I don't know where it is.
As a man knows nothing before he is born, neither shall he know anything after he is dead.
* 2 Peter 3:4 "For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
* Acts 13:36 "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers."
* Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,"
* John 11:11-14. "These things said he (Jesus): and after that he said unto them (the disciples), Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I might awaken him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death; but they thought he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. The said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."
* John 20:17. "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
* 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not go before them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
[edit] Contradicting Bible verses
* 2 Samuel 7:12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom."
* Isaiah 14:17-19 "All the kings of the nations, All of them, sleep in glory, Everyone in his own house;"
* Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
* Daniel 12:13 "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
* Ecclesiastes 3:19-20. "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts: even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no pre-eminence above a beast; for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again."
* Ecclesiastes 9:4-6,10. "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope; for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die ; but the dead know not anything [...] also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished [...] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave (sheol), whither thou goest."
* Genesis 3:19. "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it was thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
* Job 3:17. "There (the grave) the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest."
* Psalms 6:5. "For in death there is no remembrance of thee:in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
* Psalms 146:3-4. "Trust not in princes -- in a son of man, For he hath no deliverance. His spirit goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, In that day have his thoughts perished."
* Psalm 13 "Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;"
* Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be."
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:16-17
And as far as heaven and eternal life goes..check out these scriptures: Matthew 25:31-46, Mark 10:29-30, John 3:15-16, John 10:27-28, Romans 2:1-9(specifically verse 7), Romans 6:23, 2nd Corintians 5:1, 1st Timothy 6:11-12, Titus 1:1-3, Hebrews 9:11-12, 1st John 2:22-25, 1st John 5:11-12, Colossians 1:3-5, Hebrews 10:34. That is just a small sample of scriptures that shows the truth of heaven and eternal life. Be careful of creating doctrines based on one scripture. Please, STUDY the whole Word to find the truth.
Dust thou art, and dust thou shalt return!!! Doesn't say anything about going to heaven.
Most Christians insult God by not even keeping the right day as His Sabbath, and they preach the lies of the devil saying that "when you die you have a soul that goes to heaven", when God made it clear that when you die you are dead, for on that day your thoughts perish.
"I, even I, am he who comforts you. Who are you that you fear mortal men, the sons of men, who are but grass, that you forget the LORD your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth, that you live in constant terror every day because of the wrath of the oppressor, who is bent on destruction? For where is the wrath of the oppressor? The cowering prisoners will soon be set free; they will not die in their dungeon, nor will they lack bread. For I am the LORD your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar—the LORD Almighty is his name. I have put my words in your mouth and covered you with the shadow of my hand—I who set the heavens in place, who laid the foundations of the earth, and who say to Zion, 'You are my people.' " Isaiah 51:12-16
Amen, Watch! Most people don't realize that about First Corinthians 14. I've been a Christian my whole life, and didn't know that until a few years ago. My wife and I are both ministers (not THE minister, but we do have a couple ministries that we are the leaders in) in our church. She has spoken out in prophesy and words of wisdom. God will use whom He will use. Afterall...hahaha...he did use a donkey one time! If He can use a donkey, then he can use anyone. And as far as the eyeglass thing...I agree on that too. If eyeglasses are a sign of lack of faith, so is health insurance, savings accounts (according to Matthew 6:19), and so on.
Keep speaking the word, Watch! Be faithful and full of courage and wisdom!
I totally believe you know some "Baptists" that pop open a beer after church. Then again, we have a lot of "Christians" who live a life of sodomy. These people can call themselves anything they want, but their actions speak for themselves and will answer for it at the judgement one day.
"The bible says plenty of other things are a sin too, but I dont see you harping on about them, like how women should keep quiet in church, and Ministers shouldnt be aloud to be church leaders if they wear glasses. "
These are not considered sins, but are often misinterpeted scripture. The women speaking is from 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. Paul was addressing specific issues within the church of Corinth. One of these issues was the disorgaization of worship in the church. He was refering to a specific situation in which women were talking and should be silent but it did not prohibit permenatly, actually just a temporary silence because earlier in chapter 11 he said that women could pray and prophesy, and in chapter 14 that two or three people could prophesy in a worship service, shows that women are allowed to have a slot in the speaking schedule.It is not insubordinate for them to speak prophecies; it is therefore likely that Paul is prohibiting some less-formal speaking, such as chatter or comments from the audience. As far as sumbission by Law found in the verses, some scholars believe Paul is alluding to Old Testament principles of husband and wife and quite possibly have been dealing with a husband-wife problem. He also could have been alluding to Roman law which alludes to submission to a Roman law that restricted women’s roles in pagan worship. Although Paul normally means the Mosaic law when he uses the word nomos, it is possible that he meant civil law in this verse; the Corinthians would have known by context which law he meant.
As far as the eyeglass thing....eyeglases were invented around 1268 AD. I have heard some say that wearing glasses is a lack of faith.....God wants us to be faithful, not idiots.
Peter 4
1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us[a] in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime[b] in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Email me John at thoth111@gmail.com, I wish to speak with you.
I find that amazing, as Baptists I know have a beer with lunch on their sunday sabbath. Couldn't think of anything more insulting to God.
25 years ago, I drank plenty, but since then I have not had as much as a drop of any kind of alcoholic drink.
I bet you drink alcohol John
I am a baptist, and I believe we should live according to biblical principles and teachings, and whether you believe me or not, I have never eaten lobster or shrimp. Have I ever done anything contrary to biblical teaching? Of course.
John5796 - so you don't think pastors or church leaders should wear glasses? Wearing glasses is very normal. And it is crammed down my throat . . . just this morning driving in to work I saw a billboard advertising glasses. I don't know any gay people who have leased billboard space to advertise sodomy.
Face it, you are a hypocrite, like the rest of us, who picks and chooses the parts to obey and the parts that you think are actually a sin. I highly doubt you think wearing glasses is a sin or that eating lobster and shrimp is a sin.
What church denomination do you belong to John?
The 'other things' are laws of God also and should be obeyed by Christians. Maybe people like myself don't spend a lot of time "harping" on them is because their not being crammed down this society's throat to be all of a sudden looked at as "normal" like sodomy is.
The bible says plenty of other things are a sin too, but I dont see you harping on about them, like how women should keep quiet in church, and Ministers shouldnt be aloud to be church leaders if they wear glasses.
I have no control over anyone but myself. I can pray that the Lord will move in peoples lives and get them to realize that what they are doing is morally wrong. Then there's AIDS and other deseases that are a direct result of this sin. I may have no control, but if there's a chance, it's surely worth a prayer.
its all part of the power trip thinking you have control over people.
Yes it does, and whether you believe it or not, so do you.
Does it make you feel good thinking you got the power to pray for people?
How typical a response. I do not hate people whether they be saints or sinners. I pray for these people. What sickens me and every other normal intelligent person is the thought of one man sticking his hand, face or whatever up the behind of another. That is disgusting, degenerate, and so sick that it defies description. Do you understand now? This is why I pray for these people.
If you wish to discuss things further john5796 than email me at thoth111@gmail.com i'm eager to hear your self righteous hatred against gays
It is very important to understand how God feels about ALL sin. It is man that puts a level on sin...which sin is worse than another. Take a look at Romans....look at the sins included with homosexuality.....I do not condone homosexuality. I do not condone murder. I do not condone lying....but who hasn't committed that sin? Envy? Arrogance? These are sins listed, too. What makes any one of us any less guilty before God? Just like my pastor always says, "We all alike are sinners....but we do not all sin alike."
"21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
Fallen Miracle: Post your address and I will send you a bible, since you obviously do not know what it says about this filth.
Sodom and Gomorrah didn't get destroyed because of homosexuality, its iniquities were great so much so that when 2 men came to the city they wanted to pack rape them, thats how sick it had become.
It is so tragic that many find the Sodom and Gomorrah account of what God thinks about homosexuality of no value. But then again, the church has failed in the sight of God. No, I am not a christian. I am a believer. There is a difference.
I would also like to add that I have met many gays who are nicer people than a lot of christians I know.
I can't believe all this hatred towards homosexuals, none of you are acting like christians. I think we should leave the judging up to God, and there is no doubt about it some people are born gay.
From Mosaic Law onward, God condemned homosexuality as sinful. As Jesus said He did not come to condemn the world, but to die for the sins of the "world." Homosexuality is still sinful in God's eyes today. Adultry is perhaps more destructive than homosexuality, as it destroys families. Sin is sin and only the blood of Christ cleanses sins. Believe, repent, confess and be baptized into Christ. Salvation!
This guy should get his money back from this institution. He apparently does not understand what the bible says.
its amazing how the christian hypocracy factor has gone off the charts since this issue has arisen. christians talking about love this and that, on one side of their mouth, and on the other side of their mouth being concerned about free speech to say unloving things about homosexuality. and this when scripture says that anything without love is nothing.
Doctor of sin, lets not do it, but it is o.k
with the right theocratic and legalize anything is sold to a fool.
Sex drugs and rock and roll.
Hey can I use his logic when I meet Jesus?
Well said "savedbygrace". Of course the sodomites want NAMBLA kept in the closet, although the day will come when that will be shoved down peoples throats as 'just another lifestyle'. As sick as this society has become, nothing would surprise me anymore.
the ridiculousness of your of your facts really dont diserve a reply. but here it goes.......narth is a pseudo scientific organization. they were formed by a conservative group to prove the destructiveness of homosexuality. if you followed the money you will know that. this method of formation comes against every scientific premise. so you could say that narth established FIRST its conclusion and then looked for facts to support their conclusion. they have taken a very small number of homosexuals less than fifty who were sexually addicted interviewed them and the multiplied their findings so that it would include the entire u.s. homosexual population. pedophiliacs arent attracted to either sex only to small children. if they were they could sublimate their urges thru normal sex. any issues of health can be dealt with thru safe sex practices.
*33% of homosexuals ADMIT to minor/adult sex.
* There is a notable homosexual group, consisting of thousands of members, known as the North American Man and Boy Love Association (NAMBLA). This is a child molesting homosexual group whose cry is "SEX BEFORE 8 BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE." This group can be seen marching in most major homosexual parades across the United States.
* Homosexuals commit more than 33% of all reported child molestations in the U.S., which, assuming homosexuals make up 2% of the population, means that 1 in 20 homosexuals is a child molester, while 1 in 490 heterosexuals is a child molester.
* A study of twins that examined the relationship between homosexuality and suicide, published in the Archives of General Psychiatry, found that homosexuals with same-sex partners were at greater risk for overall mental health problems, and were 6.5 times more likely than their twins to have attempted suicide. The higher rate was not attributable to mental health or substance abuse disorders.
*In their book Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence, D. Island and P. Letellier report that "the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population."
*Homosexuals account for 3-4% of all gonorrhea cases, 60% of all syphilis cases, and 17% of all hospital admissions (other than for STDs) in the United States. They make up only 1-3% of the population.
*The median age of death of homosexuals is 42 (only 9% live past age 65). This drops to 39 if the cause of death is AIDS. The median age of death of a married heterosexual man is 75.
* The median age of death of lesbians is 45 (only 24% live past age 65). The median age of death of a married heterosexual woman is 79.
* Homosexuals are 100 times more likely to be murdered (usually by another homosexual) than the average person, 25 times more likely to commit suicide, and 19 times more likely to die in a traffic accident.
feetxxxl: Actually, your discussion partner apparently does have a problem with certain previously- referenced-by-him practices whether done by heterosexuals or homosexuals. That was the subject of my "flagged as inappropriate" post.
that's my point no belief is in a vacuum. you look at lev 1cor etc........and the disgust you feel reinforces how you look at those scriptures. but you wouldnt have the same disgust if the same sex practice was betwen heterosexuals. and your understanding is further supported by threat of males emotionally interactive.
the only problem is your disgust is without love. and scripture says anything without love is nothing.
Of course he's sick. Anyone standing up for or promoting the activities that 2 "gays" perform on each other is sick.
Citizen,
You are a whole lot sicker than I thought.
Pastor Leo Bogee
Citizen,
I don't know what anti-gay legislation is? I have never used the term anti-gay anything. I said the Bible says that filthy anal sex is an abomination to God, it is disgusting in His sight. It reproduces nothing except sickness and disease; you know e-coli infections and HIV and AIDS. God placed the anus strategically on the body so that the discharge of bacteria laden filthy decayed waste can be eliminated from the body without contaminating the rest of the body. God did not place it on your chin or on your chest, but in your rear. If that excites you to call having sexual contact in the anus love, then go for it. It is your life.
Before I became a Christian, I knew it was a disgusting and filthy thing to do to have anal sex. I did not need for God to tell me that. I never got excited while changing my children's diapers or wiping their bare bottoms. If that excites you or anyone else, I say it is sick and thoroughly disgusting to me. The Bible agrees and it was written there, but it always confirms the truth because it is the TRUTH.
A life of "loving" anal sex will guarantee the elimination of the linage of anyone who practices this filthy sexual act. God calls it homosexuality, not gay anything. God destroyed cities in the land of Canaan because of their filthy sex acts of homosexuality. The Bible was written 4,000 years before the U.S. Constitution. If the Bible says willful sinning is of the devil, I believe it. I guess God is the liar and you know the truth. You can dress it up any way you want to, but it all comes out the same in the end; no pun intended.
No one can force their beliefs on anyone else. Christians don't care if you believe the Word of God or make it up to fit your purposes. On Judgment Day we will all be standing alone without excuses, with no one to blame. Since that's what I believe then I had better be responsible to act accordingly and not hypocritically. I don't care personally if everyone practices homosexuality, I choose not to and the Bible says that is the right decision for me to make.
Now is that clear enough for you. You live and believe the way you choose and I'll do the same. This is supported by the U.S. Constitution.
May God have mercy on you!
Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )
Ps. I truly enjoy this forum!
pastor leo
in truth i dont know how to speak to you, because you seem to be unable to differentiate between christian cultural beliefs (which were made by man for man) and the teachings of christ. and you dont seem to be aware that all law either secular or scriptural requires interpretation. and you dont seem to be aware of knowing that we believers see in( part, a poor reflection). your understanding is that anyone who disagrees with you is satan personified. and that your understanding is the only understanding.
i dont know if you have read the emails, or have difficulty understanding them.
in lev , not all prohibitons of themselves are a sin, such as household chores on the sabbath.
num15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
some questions for you. at the time of christ, slavery was an acceptable means for distributing wealth and power.(philemon) when did it become unacceptable and an untolerable evil?
when did burning witches at the stake come against christ. it was practiced by the church up to the 17th century,. for 1700 years? why was it stop?
it is clearly commanded in scripture.
do you think there was a testing process involved in the change? what do you think that testing process was?
Pastor Leo: thanks for admitting that anti-gay legislation is based in the bible, and therefore a violation of the establishment clause of the Constitution.
his one,
Please accept my apology, my comment was directed to "feetxxxl" about his comment to you. Thank you for standing on the Word of God, which is the Bible. You sir, are a powerful man of God, and a faithful brother in Christ Jesus.
Forgive me for my error!
Pastor Leo Bogee
his one,
Whose one are you? By your comments it must Satan's. You said when Christians are faced with making a response to people who are blatantly, overtly, and willingly sinning we say "the
Bible says" as though we should say "his one" says or Satan says. If the Bible did not say that homosexuality is an abomination to God, it is disgusting to God, it is willful sinning, then there would be nothing Christians could say against it. Since you apparently don't have a clue, let me help you, THE BIBLE IS THE SOURCE FOR ALL CHRISTIAN BELIEFS! Is this too deep for you. Christians follow the teaching and preaching of Jesus Christ and He says flee from sin, period.
Those who have ears to hear, let them hear and you certainly do not. That is okay with me and by me. I, like so many others who have attempted to help you, have to tell you the truth, whether you accept it or not is our business. Preach the Gospel to the whole world, it does not say Save the whole world because the whole world will not be saved.
May God have mercy on your soul.
Enough said!
Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )
his one
in truth it is you who has an unsubstantiated belief. when a homosexual brother in christ (shares the same inheritance) says i am attracted to the same sex and expressing that attraction affirms me, your unloving response is the "bible says"
it being without love, scripture says it is nothing. you dont fellowship, weighing the spirit of his words, to determine if his words are about love of self, love of neighbor, and love of god.
yet scripture Ithess says" test everything, keep the good ."
but you have no spirit test, not even a sociological test, no test thru fellowship, that offers valid witness, sharing your relationship with christ.
yes your understanding echoes that of 2000 year. they never tested it. instead their understanding said that if homosexuals pursued this attraction, they would be damned to hell. this same understanding influenced families to abandon them, society to reject them, and influenced possibilites for incarceration, assault , and even murder.
and knowing this, you still refuse to test it......... a 1john1 test," which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—"
This theologian needs to file a lawsuit against whatever university he attended for a full refund plus damages. Then he needs to find out what "translation" of the Bible he is reading is written in English or Pig-Latin. He must've missed one of the interchanges....possibly?
"Rogers says those who argue that the Bible condemns gays and lesbians are taking biblical literalism too far and feels there is excessively negative words in the religious community, according to the Journal-World."
Biblical Literalism. Uhhh Yeah! The Bible is literal. It always has been literal. Man choses to make these issues out of basic principles. Man laying with Man is an abomination! Leviticus 18 lists just about every combination one can think of what not to do regarding sexual relationships. The whole of the Bible could be summed up in a pamphlet. God is Love. He Loves us and wishes for us to live in his fullness and provides for our redemption. Even Revelations is this same message. If this professor can't believe in literal meanings in the word on basic issues that what does that say of his faith or his witness? If you can't believe in the literal translation than every single scripture must be mind-numbingly boring because you can't really believe what it says. It might be out of context. When the word says that Jesus loves us could it mean something else?
I hope this guy gets straightened out before he steers anyone into the pit.
t
redeited..........................my apologies.
hat is what is so incredible about the homosexual sin thing. we receive no salvation from
following the law. but what we are credited for, is laying up treasures in heaven. treasures are attained thru fellowship................fellowship embraces and exudes the fruit of the spirit (which in christ, we are to serve, and be led by) patience, kindness,love ,joy, self-control, gentleness, goodness,peace,and faithfulness. in allowing our sin perpective to lead the way, we inhibit fellowship with our homosexual brothers in christ, because we are allwoing ouselves to be led by the law. if we allow ourselves to be led by the spirit our primary intent will be to share your relationship with christ trusting the spirit, which we are so dependent on, to show us all together what we need to see.
(continuing)
1john 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
the point is we see in part .........a "poor reflection". if we are aware at all about our sin. it is thru grace. we cannot credit ourselves. we are totally dependent on the spirit. if we give ourselves, our church, and our family credit for our awareness of sin we arre fooling our selves. we deny christ's crucifixion.
the whole purpose of the crucifiction is tha we cannot stop sinning by our own will., that is why the crucfiction. that is why it is only by grace thru faith..........................................and not by what we do or dont do that we are saved.
that is what is so incredible about the homosexual sin thing. we receive no salvation from following the law. but what we are credited for, is laying up treasures in heaven. treasures are attained thru fellowship................fellowship embraces and exudes the fruit of the spirit (which in christ we are to serve and be led by) patience, kindness,love ,joy, self-control, gentleness, goodness,peace,and faithfulness. in allowing your sin perpective to lead the way we fellowship with your homosexual brothers in christ, you are allwoing ouselves to be led by the law. if ywe were led by the spirit your primary intent would be to share your relationship with christ( for those have one) trusting the spirit which we are so dependent on to show us all together what we need to see.
if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.
Godequalslove147
i so totally disagree with your interpretationm.
whether we are able to resist sin or not is works.
ephesians 2:8-9 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
romans 7: 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
did you that most of the sacrifices in numbers and leviticus was for UNKNOWN SIN.
is our essence any different from the jews of the old testament?
( to be continued)
Pastor Leo,
Thank you for those words of truth. God Bless you.
I thank the Christian Connector for providing this forum for debate, argument, and the open expression of various points of view. I certainly appreciate ALL of the comments. It allows me to have a better understanding of what is being taught and what is actually believed within the Body of Jesus Christ. If we all continue to dialog, then the answers will be made available in due season.
(I was glad to see that we all appear to agree on a few things, such as, God loves everybody, but He does not love everything we do. God hates SIN and not people. God does not condemn people, but people condemn themselves by their behavior.) Telling people the truth of the Word of God is love not hate, whether they choose to receive it or not is up to them.
God is NOT in control of this Earth. God is in control of heaven and the Earth does not look anything like heaven. Jesus took back control of the Earth from the devil and gave it to His church (I John 3:8). God is in control of the consequences of our behavior (sin) here on Earth. He is a JUST God, but He is not a FAIR God. Fairness is not the issue, but salvation is; and by His justice salvation is made available to everyone who chooses to receive it. That is why I would rather have God’s MERCY than His justice.
God will love us all until we take our last breath, then the judgment comes for of us all. I hope that no Christian ever says that they hate people that practice homosexuality because that is how the homosexual community wants the world to view us, as haters. What people do and who they are not the same. We know people by what they say, but we define them by what they do. Christians do what Jesus says to do, Buddhists do what Buddha says to do, and willful sinners do what the devil says to do. “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap” Galatians 6:7.
The world says that mankind is basically good, but the Bible says that “all (males and females) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23. Mankind is born with a sin nature, a propensity to sin. By God’s justice mankind earned condemnation. However, by His mercy God sent His Son Jesus to atone for mankind’s fall. God loves us all and that’s a fact; and there is nothing anybody can do about it.
God bless you all,
Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )
Correcting my statement. Be leave should be believe. Trying to multitask and it got the better of me.
Godequalslove147,
We could keep debating but I see no point in it. I still be leave the thologian in the above article is teaching false things. To me the scripture is very clear. I have explained myself many times on this subject and I think I have been pretty clear. I will leave you with this point and I am done. Jesus forgave the adulteress and told her to sin no more.Jesus reached out to her in Love and Grace and she accepted His forgiveness. To sin no more is his next words, which is a commandment. If she turns her back on His commandment and forgiveness and continues to willingly go forth and sin then Hebrews 10: 26-31 explains what happens. Jesus will forgive the homosexual just as He did the adulteress. Once they are forgiven, they are a new creation. They are no longer an adulteress or homosexual but a member of the body of Christ. If they go back to adultery or homosexuality then read Hebrews 10: 26-31.
God Bless
The Word of God is quite clear in that the wages of sin, all sin is death. Jesus Christ came to save us from the penalty of death. Homosexuality is as much a sin as Adultery. The Ten Commandments state, "Thou shall not commit adultery." That applies to men as well as women. When the women (and this was clearly a set-up to try and catch Jesus) who was "caught" in adultery, and pray tell me how did they catch her, it requires 2 witnesses to bring a charge of adultery, and the man was never charged. So, this was clearly a set-up, but even in this Jesus turns things around. He tells them, whoever is without sin, you cast the first stone, and the oldest to the youngest drop their stones, for they knew their own sin, and then the Lord turns to the woman, and says, "where are your accusers, everyone had left." Jesus says, I do not condemn you either, BUT go and sin no more! Jesus never condones sin in any shape or form! He shows us where we are falling short and when we confess our sin as the evil that it is, HE cleanses us from all unrighteousness!
But, we live in a fallen world, and we're living in the END of the age, and so what is vile is being honored amongst men, this is God's Word as well, it is prophecy being fulfilled in our time.
For those who HEAR the SPIRIT OF GOD, listen! Mankind has raised up for themselves, preachers and teachers, who tell them what they want to hear!
The LORD GOD is my teacher, the HOLY SPIRIT is leading us into all truth, and ARISE, AWAKE O Church of GOD! The BRIDE KING IS COMING! Look around and see the world through a biblical worldview and you will be careful what you approve of.
Men will have to give account before Almighty God one day for what they are approving, where God has already spoken.
The wrath of God remains on those who reject Jesus Christ and the truth of God! In Jesus Name, I pray that many will turn back and look to the Cross of Jesus Christ, because that is the truth. We could not save ourselves from this ever increasing wickedness and praise be to God that JESUS did! HalleluYAH!!!
Matthew, godequalslove147,
“Let God be true and every man a liar” Romans 3:4.
Noah got drunk on wine and passed out cold. When he awoke he cursed “Canaan” his grandson and Ham son. Canaan was only one of Ham’s sons. He did not curse Ham because God had blessed Ham in Genesis 9:1. He knew that you do not curse anyone that God had blessed. Noah curse Canaan to stop the spread of homosexuality, but it did not do that because the descendants of Canaan lived in the land of Canaan, which is the location of Sodom and Gomorrah. God destroyed these cities because of the sinfulness and homosexuality was one of the most prevalent sins. (It is in the Bible).
Noah cursed Canaan because he knew what Ham had “done” to him. If Noah was drunk and passed out, how would he know what Ham had done to him, if he had only looked at his naked body? I said it is the first recorded homosexual act in the Bible. Ham knew what homosexuality was because he watched the degradation of humanity through homosexuality for most of 100 years before the flood.
In the Book of Leviticus chapter 18, you will find the words, do not see your father, mother, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, etc., nakedness. This scripture is NOT referring to seeing them naked, but to have sex with them. This is not rocket science! It is talking about the sins of fornication, adultery, homosexuality, etc., and NOT about being a peeping tom. Men bathed with men, women with women, boys with boys, and girls with girls. I guess they were continually sinning every time they bathed together. Every time a young child is breast fed by their mother and they see their mother’s nakedness they are sinning? How ridiculous! Sin is an overt act, not a mind game.
The slavery issue came because of the blatant lie that was told about Noah cursing Ham. There is NO scripture that says Noah cursed Ham, he cursed Canaan. Ham’s other children were not curse either. Because of this so called curse of Ham, it was supposed to justify the enslaving of Black people because the Black race is descendant of Ham. Again, Ham was never cursed, but the lie was perpetuated by racist church leaders.
God says that homosexuality is an abomination. I choose to believe God, not someone else. If describing the filthy act of anal sex offends the people practicing this unnatural behavior, then so be it. Homosexuality is certainly NOT about love. There is no love in an act of sinning. There is no love in sodomizing a child because it feeeeeels good to some sick adult. Feeeeeelings have NOTHING to do with love because love is from God, not man, and God is not involved in rape, sodomy, fornication, adultery, pedophilia, or any other sexual perversion of man. God is love! Love is not sex and it never will be.
Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )
The Watch I challenge you to find any instance of the bible where a man is put to death because of adultery. Further if you read down the passage in you will find that if a woman is a virgin and someone rapes her he must pay her father 50 shekels.Then the passage clearly states that she then must live as a wife to her rapist without the possibility of divorce.(Deuteronomy 22:29) Still the bible has maintained that adultery is not sex out of wedlock with the exception of one of the parties being married.
I wish i could finish my thought, but this website wont let me. visit isaiahscry.blogspot.com
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After that, he pretty much threw away everything that he had learned before then in order to learn the truth.
I find very little good out of theoligical institutions and teachings. After all, Paul in the New Testament was trained up in the theoligical education system of his time, and look what it did for him. He had to have a face to face encounter with Jesus in order to set him straight.
Godislove--
I love you, brother/sister, but you just don't get it. As the Bible says "you swallowed a camel, but choked on a gnat" (paraphrased). What am I getting at? The comment you made about the "hate crime initiative". You missed the whole point of my posts in order to nit-pick a small insignificant phrase. Please forgive me, but that's the only thing I've seen come out of any type of theological institution. Forget the big picture in favor of the trivial. I do believe in studying the Bible, and it's also helpful to sometimes understand the cultural and historical foundations of certain passages. But I draw the line there.
Godequalslove147,
"Adultery is not the same as homosexuality, as it only applied to woman i.e. only the woman would be punished.(They're not stoning her partner) "
I may be confused by your statement because of interpetation but Deuteronomy 22: 22-24 says (NKJV):
" 22 “If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die—the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall put away the evil from Israel.
23 “If a young woman who is a virgin is betrothed to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he humbled his neighbor’s wife; so you shall put away the evil from among you."
Both seem to be punished.......
feetxxxl, I invite you to go to gay bar, then go to a straight bar, and see how sex is empathized is so greatly, read a gay magazine found all over NYC, and tell me gay men are not more promiscuous. It is a fact whether you would like to admit it or not. Go to the gay pride parade, there is a giant float of a penis and numerous other obscene irreproachable items. This is the real "Gay lifestyle" that is promoted. Gays and straights need to stay with one partner, and I don't believe this is emphasized, at all in gay culture. You keep bringing up heterosexual they are just as wrong as homosexuals when they are sining against their body's.Your right I do have a huge log in my eye as I am a sinner saved by the grace of god, however I'm not judging them I'm just saying they need to change because I love them as myself. I don't want them to die of AIDS like my cousin did because his partner decided not to tell him he had AIDS. Isn't that the second most important commandment. Is it ok to love them ? Godbless.
Sola Gratia,
Matthew
godqualslove147
so you are comparing degrees of promiscuity among homosexualls to hetersexuals...........every spring america's finest (college students) congregate in beach areas where promiscuity is accepted and in some cases expected. this activity is condoned and even applauded by other heterosexuals. this happens without any vocal objection by christians in this country in mass. have you ever considered taking the log out of your own heterosexual eye, first.
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I've studied the law in a university setting as well as theology. I'm also a political lobbyist for the EFF and other organizations.This "hate crimes initiative" you speak of is called the Matthew Shepard Act. this act does not inhibit free speech as it only applies to violent or particularly heinous and despicable offences e.g. Matthew Shepard. The bill is legislation, not case law so to expand this legislation would take work.
Sola Gratia,
Matthew
**Adultery is not the same as homosexuality, as it only applied to woman i.e. only the woman would be punished.(They're not stoning her partner) In order, for adultery to take place marriage must first exist. Adultery is not necessarily, a sexual sin but rather a sin of betrayal, where a woman creates dissonance in an healthly relationship, and deifies her husband.
If Jesus said those words to a homosexual today, there would be a huge outcry and most definitely and lawsuit based on the "hate crime" initiative. So...I say on behalf of Jesus "Homosexuals, your sins are forgiven. Go and sin no more." If you choose to continue on your path from here, you condemn yourself--no one else does. And, please, quit twisting the Word of God around to fit your agenda. Sin is sin, and God is holy. Love the sinner, despise the sin. Minister to the sinner, but do not partake in their sin. Love them….but do not justify their sin.
If you had a child that wanted to chop off their finger, would you let them? Probably not. Why? It’s what they want to do. They’re not hurting anyone else. It’s their choice! Leave them alone, you hypocrites. Stop disciplining your children and let them be who they are! Quit trying to change them into what you want them to be. That’s real love….right? Or maybe not. I suppose that when you tell your child that they aren’t allowed to do something, they probably think you’re mean and unfair. You must not love them. I have two children of my own. I know all about it. I also know that people who want to do what they want, and not listen to their Heavenly Father, say the same thing. People who constantly complain and argue, trying to prove that homosexuality is not wrong, are merely children being rebellious. They know the truth, but they want to do what they want, and they want everyone to tell them that it’s alright. Because if people tell them it’s okay, then they don’t feel so guilty.
Ok first off, where did you get the number 12 million ? The U.S. census(outdated)? Secondly I have a lot of gay friends, I live near NYC. And from my perception of most of them, from what they tell me is that they have alot of random sex, more than hetrosexuals. Secondly,studies published in peer-reviewed journals have proved that homosexuals have a higher sex drive, have sex with a generally more random group of partners, and have more partners than heterosexuals. It is proven, homosexuals need the love of Christ, not condemnation. Feetxxxl I don't believe homosexuality is a sin, I do believe promiscuity is, however. God Bless.
Sola Gratia,
Matthew
hmmmm....AND there would definitely be no need to say "go and sin no more". In order for there to be forgiveness, there has to be sin. And by simply forgiving, you proclaim the sinfulness of the person being forgiven. Now, in the case of the prostitute in Jesus' time (as well as the gay community today) she had the free will to choose whether she accepted the forgiveness AND took His advice by not doing it anymore, or to keep sinning (and she...not Jesus or anyone else...would condemn herself).
They would have been appalled! How dare he say that! Apparently He believed that homosexuality (or in the case of the actual scripture--fornication, adultery) was a sin...otherwise there would be no need to forgive...would there.
If Jesus had told a homosexual that they were forgiven and to go and sin no more, how would the homosexual community have taken that comment?
I happen to read further down the posts and saw one by Savedbygrace. And it's true that people say that Jesus didn't condemn the sinner. But he didn't say they weren't sinning. Those who support the gay agenda constantly use the situation of Jesus and the prostitute. But they fail to understand what is being said.
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godequalslove147
have you spoken to alll 12million homosexuals in this country or the 320 million worldwide. better yet have you spoken to all 320 million heterosexualsin this country, so that you know to what degree they are promiscuous. there was recently a poll taken of a group of church- going newly weds.. 95 % said they had sex before they were married. have you polled all the single people in your church. do you know for a fact that all are remaining celibate in their single years.
you re talking about impressions. that have no bearing on reality. promiscuity is one issue. homosexuals being equal to heterosexuals is another. and whether scripture says homosexuality is a sin is another.
im still waiting to be shown where it clearly says that same sex bonding is a sin. it hasnt appeared , becase it doesnt exist.
those that want to show that it is a sin fill in between the words with negative images accumulated over the years. that is not scripture. that's culture. human, yes, of christ no.
pburwell
"Get your thumb out of your pie Jack." That is not something that I think a Christian should say. You provide no evidence that the bible should be read literally. If it is than ,I suppose you think that woman must cover their heads at all times, men cannot have long hair, and we should never eat lobster and shrimp, men cannot have tattoos(as these things still remain after the new covenant, and carry strict penalties) 1Cor 11:26, 11:14 Lev. 11:9-10 19:28 So I think if this is what you believe than you should picket Red Lobster for their sinful behavior. I pray that God will heal you hateful heart. God bless
Soli Deo Gloria,
Matthew
pburwell
"Get your thumb out of your pie Jack." That is not something that I think a Christian should say. You provide no evidence that the bible should be read literally. If it is than ,I suppose you think that woman must cover their heads at all times, men cannot have long hair, and we should never eat lobster and shrimp, men cannot have tattoos(as these things still remain after the new covenant, and carry strict penalties) 1Cor 11:26, 11:14 Lev. 11:9-10 19:28 So I think if this is what you believe than you should picket Red Lobster for their sinful behavior. I pray that God will heal you hatful heart. God bless
Soli Deo Gloria,
Matthew
I am in accordance with everything you have just said except that you catagorize homosexuality as a sin. I agree that the typical homosexual lifestyle, one of multitudinous partners and random sexual relations is immoral. However, I defend the small Christian minority of homosexuals, that have one partner for life or decide to abstain from sex altogether i.e. remain celibate . Nowhere does god condemn or admonish a loving homosexual relationship. That is an homosexual lifestyle apart from temple prostitution, mass sexual orgy, and fertility ceremonies. Rogers is certainly not wrong for presenting a view converse to that of traditional Christianity. Preachers who preached against slavery and civil rights were admonished in an analogous manner. Homosexuality is a small issue blown out of proportion. Refer to my other comments for the number of debatable condemnations of homosexuality. Thank you for your kind response to the article. I love to hear other people’s veiws on things to better understand my own. God Bless
Soli Deo Gloria,
Matthew
“I’m trying to help people understand that the Bible rightly interpreted, which I would think is through the lens of Jesus’ redemptive life and ministry ... "
RIGHT THERE is the problem: A LOW VIEW OF SCRIPTURE. The scripture is to be read LITERALLY wherever obviously required. And when scripture clearly states such deviance as "man with man" is "an abomination" then it makes it hard to grasp how this Professor can get something else from it. EXCEPT that he refuses to accept literal interpretation, that is.
In other words, Jack Rogers, professor of Theology Emeritus at San Francisco Theological Seminary, is making the Bible say what he wants to fit his view of sin.
Jack has jumped over the candlestick and made a God to suit himself and his own views. "My God wouldn't condemn homosexuals!", he has all but said. This is called I D O L A T R Y Jack.
Get your thumb out of your pie Jack. It's time you understand the Bible is read hermeneutically, not through the lens of your presuppositions.
This debate is very simple to me.
I don't hate Homosexuals but I don't condone their lifestyles because I believe the Bible points out their lifestyle is a sin. I believe that is pretty clear.
I believe what the Bible says and the "wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23)
I believe someone who is leading a sinful life can be redeemed through the saving grace of Jesus Christ. I believe that if you accept personally the sacrifice Jesus made for us and accept him as your personal savior, then your sins are forgiven. Thus, someone who is homosexual, can go before Jesus and accept him as savior and be forgiven.
I believe that when we accept Jesus as our savior the we are a new creation.
I believe because we are a new creation we don't follow our old sinful ways.
I also believe that if we are the new creation and now a member of the body of Christ( His Church), that if I am sinning, then I should repent. See 1 Corinthians 5.
Paul also says later in 1 Corinthians 6: 18-20: "18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are God’s."
Because I believe thes things.
Sin is death. Homosexuality is a sin. It is a sexually immoral sin, which is one that we must "Flee" from. Jesus can redeem our sins with the acceptence of Him as our savior. Once we accept and we are forgiven, we are new creations and we are apart of the Body of Christ. We, through prayer, faith and the word avoid sin. If we sin, then we repent, or like in 1 Corinthians 5; we are cast out.
I believe this theologian is teaching wrongly because Sin is condemed in the Bible. He is wrongly preaching it in church, which in that case we can point it out as wrong. Remember, Paul says: "Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?" (1Corinthians 5:6).
For those who are leading a sexually immoral life, I pray the redeeming power of our Lord Jesus touches you. For those teaching wrongly, I pray that you are touched by God's wisdom and understand the errors in your way. God Bless.
"Just because practicing homosexual psychiatrists and psychologists say that it is normal for a human being to desire to have anal sex, I guess someone else's feces excites them, doesn't make it true. It is sick, disgusting, abominable, and sinful behavior. Even animals don't do it!" Your speech is hateful,bigoted and incorrect. Researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior, has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them. I pray that you will lose you hate, just as jesus loved the adulteress, he didn't call her disgusting, or abominable. He just told her not to do it. I have great love for Pastor Leo, I hope that god will free you from passing judgment and hate.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Matthew
here comes the contempt.
pastor ....thank you for your comment. you have made it quite clear that our beliefs do not exist in a vacuum. our beliefs are supported and energized by images in our own minds. you change the image, you change the the belief. there have been a number of testamonies that when someone actualiy put a human face behind the essence of homosexuality their entire understanding about it changed. and their belief along with it.
my question is.................what are those images and where do they come from. do they come from a lifetime of negative messages and feedback. are they yoked to fear that any acceptance of homosexuality will either daamn you to hell(an absolute lie) or put you in dis favor with god. do they come from your own personal innate fear of homosexuality.
or do they come having from fellowshipped in christ, where the shared spirit of christ is the focus an not your belief systems.
if god is the creator and god created sex in beings that he designated as "very good" in geneisis. then could it not be concluded that that sex is very good also. if he gave feelings could that not the same be said.
right, 1cor 13 says that any thing withourt love is nothing. how ever sex with love is definitely something. cannot feelings infused with love be said the same.
if we are very good, then the feelings that express us are very good.
why did jesus weep before he raiseed lazarus from the dead. he had already said dont be concerned about the things that kill the body, only those that kill the soul. he knew he was going to restore him.............................why not excitement instead of tears?
what is your explanation for the anus being an errogenous zone and that anal orgasms are possible. did god make a mistake/
why did he weep for the widow?
Pastor Leo thank you so much for referring me to Leviticus 18 or the Holiness code and other law from the old tesment. I realize that homosexuality is wrong because of this chapter but I need help understanding the rest of law.
I need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them. Here are my problems:
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) (Taken from Dr. Laura letter)
Pastor. Leo what seminary did you graduate from that taught you that Ham looking at his son’s nakedness was homosexuality come from an extremely conservative seminary and they don’t teach that(to my knowledge) . It must have been a seminary that supports slavery, because that is what that verse was used justify. I will pray for you Pastor Leo that god removes the scales over your eyes and let’s you see the light of truth. That instead of just quoting random verses you can explain the historical and literal context of them. That you can rightfully divide the word of truth, and see a god of love.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Matthew
Brother in the Body of Christ
(www.soulforce.org)
What does having sex and loving someone have to do with each other? Having sex has NOTHING to do with love. Since when is rape loving someone? Justifying your lust for someone and calling it love is sick, disgusting, and sinful. This exactly what those who practice homosexuality want people to believe, that they love each other. In fact, they only lust after each other's flesh. They even are trying to justify pedophilia.
Love is from God, Romans 5:5, and not from Satan. There is nothing loving about sinful lust. Do you think the rise of pornography is just a natural thing for people to do? It is just one more attempt by the devil to destroy family and family values.
Read 1 Corinthians 13 and see if you can find any reference to how you feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel and love. Feelings are what the flesh does and our spirit self has been given authority over them by God. Love does NO HARM to anyone. Homosexual, filthy anal sex doesn't just do harm, but it causes sickness (e-coli infections) and death from AIDS and HIV infections.
Just because practicing homosexual psychiatrists and psychologists say that it is normal for a human being to desire to have anal sex, I guess someone else's feces excites them, doesn't make it true. It is sick, disgusting, abominable, and sinful behavior. Even animals don't do it!
I don't care personally what people do with each other. (The Bible says preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not beat anyone over the head with it to make them do anything.) However, I do care that they want to push their sinful behavior on others, especially on children, and call it normal. Christians do not judge non-believers because they cannot help themselves and they don't have any power against Satan's hatred for them. Christian do judge each other and hold each other accountable for sinful behavior. I don't know what Bible these so call theologians are talking about, but Matthew 18:15-21 is not in the Bible by accident.
In the days of Noah people were sinning and living every vile lifestyle possible. Then, God slammed the doors of the Ark and all perished outside of the Ark. I am sure that many climbed on the Ark and begged to get in, but they had already chosen their demise. It will be the same in the very near future. It is the responsibility of Christians everywhere to tell people the truth, not make them do anything or demand that they do anything Christian, because they cannot. Just keep on living like hell, get used to it, because that is where you are going to end up by living a filthy death-style.
Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )
im sure you are aware of the laws of statutory rape and of the klatest lds trial. how can there be mutual anything betwen an 11 year old girl and a 40 year old man. what's your point?
I have a question for you feetxxxl. If a 40-year-old man and a 11-year-old girl have a "bond out of the same motivation as heterosexuals, mutual love, respect, attraction,and trust for a shared committed life together" should they be allowed to marry and have sexual relations? Or how about if a mother and her son do? Or sister and brother? Or grandmother and grandson?
There are certain relationships that should not be allowed. And which ones are not are clearly recorded in the Bible.
It's not just about what we feel is wrong, but about what the Bible tells us is wrong. And while ultimately we should love one another, we should also be there to keep one another from falling into sin - as friends, as sisters and brothers.
consider this understanding of romans1:
1) we are aware of god’s invivible qualities thru what he created so we have no excuse to say we do not know of him.
(2) and allthough knowing him we do not give him thanks in all things. nor glorify him. in fact the less that we do these things, the more we credit ourselves with being our own savior.
(3)we are fools in our wisdom and exchange his glory in whom we are created in his image, for images of our own mortality.
(4) because we are given over to these images we are also given over to all kinds of appetites of the desires of our hearts in our attempt to defy and at the same time be lead by our own morality
(5)we exchange the truth of god for a lie and serve ourselves and our earthly wisdom……….. even powers and principalities.
(6)we are given over from the natural love of self and brother, neighbor to the unnatural, lusts of every given thing. this provides for our unlimited sense of shame, our own self hatred and low self esteem.
(7)in this state of existence we no longer think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of god.and embrace the license to do every kind of wickedness and evil.
(8) and while doing this, knowing that to do this brings death, we continue to not only do them but also approve of those who do the very same things.
this is why in romans2:1 you who judge do the very same things as those you judge.. this is why, romans says we all need a savior. (THE PURPOSE OF THE MESSAGE OF ROMANS)
im still waiting for someone to explain how two of the same sex,who bond out of the same motivation as heterosexuals, mutual love, respect, attraction,and trust for a shared committed life togetherr, comes against the fruit of the spirit, the spirit of christ, and love your neighbor as yourself.
you cannot answer................................ because it doesnt.
are you aware that that christian culture has nothing to do with teachings of christ. one waa made by man for man. the other is about the spirit.
one is full of contempt , hatred, disgust and division. the other embraces and exudes the fruit of the spirit...............goodness,kindness,patience, self-control., faithfulness,gentleness,love joy, and peace.
one says that in the defense of my beliefs my contempt and hatred, division are righteous. the other says that anything spawned, from hatred, contempt, division has no life.
jesus said one cannot serve 2 masters. he will despise one and love the other.
paul says with christ we serve and are led by the spirit(romans). he also said we serve the spirit in a new way not in the old way to the written code.
do realize that the hypocracy factor in christianity has gone off the charts with this issue of homosexuality. christians are saying all kinds of words about love, and loving one'sneighbor but have no problem turning an unloving face toward homosexualis.
to love them is to fellowship woith them.
to fellowship with them means honoring their life experiences.....a person did experience this, did feel this, did see this. in the midst of this in this comes out what is against loving self and neighbor, the fruit of the spirit, and loving one another as christ loves us. whatever needs to be and it is seen by both.
and their valid witness.
if your contempt factor is going thru the roof reading this then..............................you will be understanding the concept about serving 2 masters.
consider that belief is mainly about the concept of "i", while the spirit of christ is about christ.
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.
Homosexuality is an ABOMINATION in the eyes of God!
I guess this merry-go-round of theological self-righteousness will never end. Anyone with a few letters behind their name in Christendom can say anything they choose and the secular world and some Christians will accept it as truth. God does not condemn anyone, especially since self-condemnation is so popular today. “Wow to those who call evil good and good evil” Isaiah 5:20.
If it means anything to quote the Bible text, then that should settle the discussion immediately. However, no matter what the Bible actually says, the argument of self- interpretation always arises. People think they have the right to interpret the Bible scriptures any way they see fit. They can even re-invent Jesus Himself, if His words don’t fit their lifestyle or homosexual death-style (Homosexuality guarantees the end of your lineage). Believe the Bible or not, God certainly won’t make you believe His word.
Here are a few scriptures that speak directly to the topic of the SIN of homosexuality:
- Genesis 9:24-25, the first homosexual act between Ham and Noah, but Noah cursed Ham’s son and his grandson, Canaan for it (explained in my book). (Sodom & Gomorrah were in the land of Canaan, Genesis 19:4-5, 24)
- Leviticus 18:21-24, 21 “I am the Lord. 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination (detestable). 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. 24 Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you.”
- Leviticus 20:13, “If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.”
o James 1:15, “When desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown brings forth death.” The consequences of sin brings forth death in due season.
- I Kings 14:22-24 (those who practice homosexuality are perverted) & Daniel 11:37 is a prophecy of the anti-Christ (homosexual – Satanic behavior).
- Romans 1:18, 24-27, 27 “Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.” Also, Romans 1:28-32 & I Corinthians 6:9-10 & Jude 7
God gave to each person “free will” to live by or to die by. In these End Times there will be a great falling away of the Body of Christ and homosexuality is just one of the pits that they will fall into. The rise of homosexuality is just preparation for the coming of the anti-Christ. Click on (“Are you ready? Are you sure?) on my homepage.
Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )
I am a theologian, and a student at Liberty University.
The bible DOES condemn homosexuality, however just as it does heterosexuality if not more. The bible contains six condemnations to homosexuals and 362 condemnations to heterosexuals. The bible clearly condemns any immoral sexual behavior homosexual or heterosexual. The bible does not condemn life long same-sex relationships, whether platonic or romantic.
In the story of David and Jonathan, in the text uses the Hebrew word 'ahavah (Strong's H160), which is only used between heterosexual spouses. Further the texts show evidence of an homoerotic relationship, referring to the nakedness of ones parent’s e.g. sexual taboo as with Ham and Noah. The story also uses language that mirrors the language of intermarital sexual relations i.e. souls knit as one. This interpretation is not new it is mirrored in Elizabethan and Renaissance literature and throughout history.
Jesus never once made any statement towards the behavior or conduct of any on homosexual persons. In fact, he stated that the second most important commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself. If you think you can judge others, you are wrong. Q.E.D. (Read the Pauline Corpus)
“When you judge them, you are really judging yourself guilty, because you do the same things they do. God judges those who do wrong things, and we know that his judging is right.You judge those who do wrong, but you do wrong yourselves. Do you think you will be able to escape the judgment of God?”(Romans 2:1-3) Q.E.F.
Homosexuality, de facto was rampant in Roman culture due to it’s inclusion in Pagan fertility ceremonies. These exercises included both homosexual and heterosexual sexual misconduct, orgies, and bestiality.(See Romans 1, and Levitcal holiness code, Leviticus 17-26) Further study of extra-biblical historical evidence and middle eastern culture studies, indicate male to male sodomy apparent in post-battle victimization of defeated. Extra-biblical evidence has also proven Ipso facto, the early Vatican held same-sex union ceremonies. (Homoeroticism In The Biblical World: Martti Nissinene, 1998) cont. below..
As for the Greek word "Arsenokoitai"; it is obscure only used by Paul twice, it is not seen elsewhere in the bible. It is impossible to know what this word really means even in careful analysis of extra-biblical Greek literature. If Paul had used the word “paiderasste” which was the de facto and de jure standard for a person who engages in male to male sexual behavior. The best definition is that it means “a man of many beds” or promiscuous man in my own translation of the Koine Greek. Most newer lexicons concur with my translation in labeling "Arsenokoitai" as “male sexual perverts”.
As for the Greek word Malakoi (plural of malakos), It means some one who is “soft”, someone who gives into temptation,someone who is week, someone who is obsessed with material possessions, someone who is of the world . If you would like proof of this simply read the early Greek lexicons (1380-1903), and search for the word usage in the NA27. I have studied the Etymology of the word and it does not give even inkling of something pertaining to sex.
fgosnel
as i mentioned before, in the original king james version, before an 1800 word (homosexual)was transposed into a 2000 year old text, was" defiling oneself with mankind" this kind of behavior cause self loathing and self hatred. in hoomsexual testimony , this was what was experienced by a number of homosexuals before they came out of the closet. the reverse was true after they came out.
Notice the next verse per 1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. ESV
were they made whole because they were washed by the blood of christ or because they changed their behavior. if "changed behavior" is the answer, then how is christ's crucifixion needed.
the ssence of pederasty can be cnsumated with opposite sex relations as well same sex relations. if this does condemn heterosexuality why should it condemn homosexuality. both are descriptions of human bonding motivated by mutual love, respect, trust, and attraction for a committed shared life with another. pederasty involves none of this.
bill 25
timothy says "that all scripture is god breathed.
prophet
absolutely not. scripture discusses gang rape,and defiling onesself with mankind(pederasty), and being given over to shame based lusts.(obsession with sex and sexual pleasure)
are you saying these same acts cant be consumated thru opposite sex acts? and when they are does that condemn heterosexuality?
2nd Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any
private interpretation. for the prophecy came not at any time by the will of man,
but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Jack Rogers is out to lunch, and for a smart guy, he's pretty ignorant of his theology. The fact is...God loves the homosexual, but hates their SIN. Get it...SIN!!!! It's what God calls their behavior, a sinful behavior which Christ shed His blood on the Cross for. For him to suggest that the churches should be leading the pack for their equal rights shows a clear disdain for the collective truth of the Scriptures, and he is merely a pawn in the Homosexual Agenda to silence those who speak the Truth. When we begin to speak the Truth, the Homosexual Agenda gets nervous, and when their tolerance cannot accept the "intolerance" of the Truth, well..it's easy to see where their homosexual fascism will lead them to go - punishing those who profess the true faith in Christ, if not by silence...by incarceration...by political blackmail...by death, if possible...until all their detractors are dead or silenced. It's their plan, and Jack Rogers is a willing pawn in their scheme.
REPENT, for the KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!!!
feet....
You just contradicted yourself. You say that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality...and then you quote the scripture that does. I see that you have "explained away" this proported myth. Using the same method, it would be just as easy to "explain away" Christ's crucifixion and resurrection....even the very existence of God. But you wouldn't do that....if you were a Christian. Would you? But then again, if you were a real Christian you wouldn't be supporting some of the Bible, while debunking other parts. Either be a Christian and live the Bible, or get out! In Revelations 3, God says (paraphrased) "I know your works, that you are neither hot nor cold. I would rather have you hot or cold, but because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth." The only thing worse than an unbeliever slamming the Bible is a lukewarm "Christian" trying to pervert the Truth to justify their sin. You, feetxxx, are one of the people that is mentioned in Romans 1:18-32. You have "exchanged the truth of God for a lie."
But let us use your judgement on such things....according to you, Romans 1 doesnt say that homosexuality is wrong. Ok, it also "doesn't say" that evil, greed, depravity, envy, murder,strife, deceit, gossiping, slander, hating God, arrogance, and boasting are wrong either.
Now lets get to the meat of this...homosexuality is wrong, so is murder, lying, stealing, etc, etc. But God still loves people who do that kind of stuff. He will never stop loving them. My son does things that are wrong quite a bit, but I still love him. But guess what...he has to bear the consequences of his actions. Just like the homosexual, thief, and liar. But I still love him. And God still loves the homosexual, but they will bear the consequences of their actions. He loved them so much he died for them, to try and get them to see how much he loves them. The problem that the homosexual community has is that they believe that Christians say that God doesn't love them. And, for the most part, they are right. "Christians" do say that. They haven't learned to temper truth with love. But just because God loves, it doesnt change the fact that they are sinning and will pay the price. Otherwise, the cross is made void.
Let's look at this too. Throughout the Bible (Old and New Testament) it constantly speaks of marriage being between a man and a woman. Paul speaks of it over and over. It never speaks of the roles of a man (or woman) and his/her "same sex partner". That, in itself, is enough evidence to put any intelligent argument to rest. Any other argument is, really, immature attempts to avoid being accountable to God. I perceive that feetxxx is merely wanting to sharpen his/her debating skills without the desire to actually find the truth. It's just to excercise his/her intellect.
I offer the following per the inspired apostle:
1 Cor 6:9-11 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. ESV
Notice the next verse per 1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. ESV
They no longer practiced their former sins once they obeyed the Lord and were justified by Him.
Concerning the phrase "abusers of themselves with mankind", it is a compound Koine Greek word, transliterated as "arseno koites" which means per Strong's numbering NT:732
NT:733 <START GREEK>a)rsenokoi/th$, ou, o(<END GREEK> arsenokoit¢s male homosexual
Referring to a male who engages in sexual activity with men or boys: 1 Cor 6:9; 1 Tim 1:10; Pol. Phil. 5:3 [ET].
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)
Homosexuality is clearly a sin just as adultery, fornication, stealing, drunkenness, etc are. According to the inspired writer, those who continue to engage in those sins are "unrighteous" and "will not inherit the kingdom of God".
For those at Corinth who would argue with what Paul wrote, he supplied the following per 1 Cor 14:37 If you think of yourself as a prophet or a spiritual person, you will know that I am writing only what the Lord has commanded. CEV
scripture does not say homosexuality is a sin, its man who says that scripture says homosexuality is a sin. its tradition that says homosexuality is a sin. but tradition is the limitation of man's ability to embrace the spirit of christ. the truth is that the teachiongs of christ demand absolute equality between homosexuals and heterosexuals.
i challenge any one to make a case for scripture saying homosexuality is a sin
gen...... not all prohibitions of themselves were sins. such as household chores on the sabbath.
num 15:32 32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
gen .......gang rape
romans 1: 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
what is the truth that was exchanged for a lie and who was it that worshipped and how were they worshipping the created..........that made god give them over to the shamebased lust ridden same sex acts.
is this a depiction of all hindu cultures , atheists, agnostics, and all the pagan cultures that surronded isreal.
how does the do shame based lust ridden acts that cause self loathing and low self esteem have anything to do with same sex acts that are motivated by mutual love,respect,attraction and trust for having a committed shared life with another.
1tim and 1cor the original king james translation is "defiling onself witrh mankind" which though consistent with romans has no connection to homosexuality.
for those who think homosexuality is a sin, then explain the essece of the sin of homosexuality that would make it come against the fruit of the spirit, the spirt of christ, and loving your neighbor as yourself( asummation of all the law)
The insinuation that homosexuals are justified in not becoming Christians because the church is hypocritical and lacking in love is unreasonable. It is admitted that the church needs to be more loving. The liberal will burden the church to love "more" so that the homosexual will become "saved." Thus, it is insinuated that the church is to blame because the homosexual does not get saved. Liberal reasoning has always said it is someone else's fault. The open ended demand to love "more" will result in the bar continually being raised. Thus, this reasoning ensures that the church will be blamed because the homosexual does not turn to Christ. However, Jesus Christ loved perfectly and yet that did not ensure a positive response to His message. Why did Jesus Christ leave such a small following when He left this earth considering He loved perfectly? The homosexual must repent and believe in spite of the hypocrisy and lack of love in the church. The reason the homosexual does not respond favorably is because he loves his sin and hates the Gospel
An unfortunate peculiarity of this sin is the commitment of the militant leadership of this movement to force and normalize this sin upon society and the church. The militant leadership of this movement are zealous to normalize and get social approval for their sin. I don't see the alcohol, gambling, or pornography industries attempting to force their sin upon the church and then reason that because they are resisted it is because they are hated and their sin is being singled out against the others. The degree to which the militant leadership of the homosexual movement attempts to force and normalize their sin upon the church is the degree to which it is resisted and this in turn is interpreted as hatred and singling out one sin over others. No doubt Christians are committing the above sins but it is being done through the back door. The sin of homosexuality is being served to the front door of the church through no choice of her own. This is being helped out by many clergy in the mainline denominations who are themselves homosexuals and therefore creating an approving environment for this sin in the church. When a robber breaks in through the front door of the church during the daylight you know that the end is near. Love confront and therefore the best way to "love" the homosexual is to share the Gospel with them. A component of the Gospel is repentance. It is needful to know what to repent of.
Well, obviously, God died and made Jack Rogers in charge.
Hey, Jack why don’t we check with your buddy Charles Darwin regarding this homosexual thing. Your humanistic world would have died about 20 million years ago…..
With civil rights if you have to specify a group like women’s rights, gay-rights, rights of the sexually confused, immigrants’-rights, etc. then you are a racist. True rights provide justice and equality under the law for equally for everybody. Not for specified groups. Their Lady Liberty is using her blindfold to rub between her girlfriend’s legs while she is leaning against one side of the balance so that it always rules in favor of these groups of perverts.
The rainbow flag represents the anti-Christ crusades that are based on the legitimate civil rights movement that eased the oppression of the black population by the US. It is an attempt to legitimize these other groups, women, gays, sexually confused, illegal immigrants, etc. The black civil-rights movement was about an oppressed minority in the US that needed to be liberated. Moses said “when you come into the land I will give to you, do not oppress the aliens, remember you were slaves in Egypt, and love your neighbor as yourself.” However the same Moses that said this also said “the man will rule over the woman,” and the gays would be stoned to death. Moses made a distinction the New Testament did not change these. Now in the US, Christians have totally failed to stand up against the first rainbow flag anti-Christ crusade for women’s rights who are a 51% minority, and because of this there are few remaining traditional families. They will also fail to stand up against every other group that these secularists legitimize. Since the hippy movement the Christian churches in the US have been impotent.
Jack Roger’s gay theology is twisted because he only reads the Bible to find out what he can get away with. He has confused love with tolerance. Love means God wants to be in relationship with us and he is suffering every day, like Jesus demonstrated on the cross, because what we are doing offends his purity. “Do not offend the Holy Spirit of God who is within you.” If we become too offensive to God he assigns angels to do his job of being our god, some are goods and some are bad, and we suffer whatever consequences.
LarryPTL,
You wrote, "During Biblical times, Jewish men, without hesitation or appeal, stoned to death anyone caught engaging in the act of, or confessing to be, homosexual."
According to the law, "in the mouth of two or three witnesses..." before a stoning. If they got away from that, so continues to explains why God's laws weren't working. They weren't following them.
This should not be about a man loving a man. It should be against the unsafe anal sex betwen men. Talking about hetrosexual anal intercourse was not addressed. That's all fine with me. I trust God. I didn't make the laws. I can choose to reject or follow them. I just refuse to pick and choose which one's I'll trust, and which one's I'll ignore. I just choose to trust them, and there has turned out to be much freedom in trusting God's laws.
You can talk at the gates all day long about the implications of engaging in activities that could lead to sodomy, but only homosexual sodomy was condemned. Stick with what God said is a problem, the rest will make sense. Know also that anyone that wanted to live a lifestyle like that, was free to move to another culture/society that permitted it. The gates of the city did not close them in. Freedom to live there was a given. If you didn't like the laws in Israel, then you were free to move somewhere that would accomodate your life choices.
In the 3rd paragraph of the article, Rogers states, “the Bible does not condemn Christian people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender.” Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to ‘go & sin no more”.
I John 2:3-5 “And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.” There are no Christian homosexuals. There are however, Christians, who are ex-homosexuals. Christians have not been “condemning homosexuals”. Christians are outraged because homosexuals want us to accept their ungodly lifestyle. According to the media, homosexual activists want Christians to say that homosexuality is ‘normal’ and that it is not a sin. Not only do homosexual activists DEMAND that the rest of the population say that they are ‘normal’, ‘Christian’, etc.. but they publicly commit acts that are immoral (such as the gay pride parades) and sacrireligious (such as the display of their rendition of the Last Supper at the Folsom Street Fair). Jeremiah 8:12 “Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the Lord.”
Homosexuality is a sin. Pointing out sin is NOT CONDEMNATION! Pointing out sin and warning sinners that there will be a judgment day is a commandment to Christians. Ezekiel 3:18 “When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.” The condemnation that a homosexual feels when they are told that homosexuality is a sin is their own conscience. John 3:17-18 “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
I have a message from God to any homosexual that may be reading this: God does love you. He gave His only begotten Son that you might be saved. If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He gave His life on the cross for you and that He rose again on the third day, then you can be saved. If you confess your sins, God is just and able to forgive your sins. God wants you to be free, not just from the bondage of homosexuality, but free from all the sin and guilt that you have been carrying around. Read the Bible and seek God. You will find Him. John 8:32 “and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
Jesus personally did not confront homosexuality because of the nature of Jewish society. During Biblical times, Jewish men, without hesitation or appeal, stoned to death anyone caught engaging in the act of, or confessing to be, homosexual. Even after hearing all that was said about Jesus, would a homosexual confess to a Jewish man leading many other Jewish men?
But when the early Church first went out into the 'Gentile' world, they confronted homosexuality, firmly and decisively. No society that endorses homosexuality has ever survived in the long run, and none ever will.
The Watch,
You are right about the "Old" Testament law to be understood as a Moral, Civil and Ceremonial law. Since the Temple is gone, never to return, as the purpose of the Temple was lost, and changed into something like the pagans. The cerimonial laws cannot be kept. The moral and civil laws absolutely can be kept individually if we choose. Christianity does not understand the laws purpose, as it's author/designer/original leader the "apostle" Paul, a non-God ordained lawyer by trade, taught his followers to disregard the law because it could not be kept perfectly. Never was it expected to be kept perfectly, so why God gave the Temple and it's cerimonial law. The Temple was a place where when we "missed the mark" we could bring an "offering/gift" to God to tell him how thankful we were for how He, through the law, has taught us how to live this life succesfully. Then the priest would take the gift/offering and prepare it as a sacrifice for God, which in general was food for the levites. Argue all you want, Jesus was a jew who kept the law, not the oral torah, and was very satisfied in keeping the law as God gave it.
Which brings this to the topic at hand. Sex between men. Jesus never spoke or wrote a word about it. That would logically be because he agreed with what God had to say about it in the law. Every law had a two fold protection. Physical, and spiritual. So the same with this topic. The only, and I mean only thing God had to say about relations between me, was there was to be no sodemy between men. Science has shown it to be an unhealthy form of intercourse between me. Plus my observations have been men who "cross that line" become "flaming" in their lifestyle. The later is arguable, but it's is my observation.
The point here is only God can call something sin. We have been told not to add or take away from God's words. God did not say a man could not love another man. God did not say a man could not kiss a man. He did not say a man could not indulge in oral sex with another man, but it is clear in Lev 18:22 they were not to engage in sodomy. A study of the history of the definition of the word reveals it originally referred to intercourse, as a man has with a woman. It is only addressed 1 time in the "Old" testament. It is clear what the point is when one chooses to see it, when not looking through the "glasses" of a religious dogma.
But I realize I'm in enemy camp, as I am not a Christian (although I love Yahweh), writing what I've written here. So few of you will even "get" what I've attempted to explain. This whole understanding of the law will help un-confuse a lot of doctrines that Christianity, and Judaism have created when their teachings added to God's laws.
We all Sin, I don't care if you have commited your life to Christ or not, we ALL sin. Homosexuality is a sin, but I have not been given life by Christ in order to judge. I have been given new life in Christ so I can love as Jesus did. The most important thing is that I love others, not point out to them their sin. If we had no sin maybe we would be qualified to judge.
This man is not a theologian. He is trying to get his own personal point across so that he can justify this behavior. Homosexuality is a sexual sin, just as pre-marital sex and adultery are sins. Any sex outside of the marriage of a man and a woman is wrong. You can try and rationalize all you want, but God's Word does NOT return void. Romans Chapter 1 is adamant about homosexuality and a depraved lifestyle, just as the 10 Commandments is adamant about adultery. Jesus loves sinners and wants everyone to repent and live a life of peace and contentment that only comes from knowing Jesus personally. It is a choice - just as sinning is also a choice. I pray that people will have a heart of wisdom and not be lead astray by this foolish man and his opinions.
Big German: I agree!
Sin is sin is sin! God is an "equal-opportunity" hater of ALL SIN! Don't be fooled: NO sin is worse than another in His Eyes! That is why we ALL need Jesus!! We are to love the sinner, HATE the sin, be it sexual sins (adultery, fornication, homosexuality), murder, racism, pride, haughtiness, et.al. Preach the truth IN LOVE through the conviction of the Holy Spirit and leave "politics" out of it!
The Democrats have a new slant: Love the sin and hate the sinner,(if he or she ia REPUBLICAN).
This man is no more a Christian theologian than Jessie Jackson or Al Sharpton are genuine Reverends. It is just a label they wear while their insides are as dead men's bones. Homosexuality is a perversion of God's natural order. It is not now, nor has it ever been acceptable in God's eyes. To those of you who want to continuously argue "God is love" as a defense, you lose. God is indeed love, but He is completely holy. Therefore, he judges sin! Jesus says repeatedly throughout Scripture, "If ye love me, ye will obey my commandments." So, living your life contrary to His Word on the premise that He is "love" will surely wind you in hell. To the person who said that Christians make this sin greater than others........I disagree. #1 It is the homosexual community that has brought this to the forefront and are propagating their agenda into our lives as well as our babies. It wasn't that long ago when homosexuals were screaming "What we do in our bedrooms is our business." Well, you brought it out, now it is my business and every other person's who is not advocating your wicked lifestyles. As Billy Graham said "If God does not judge America for this abominable behavior, then He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah." Judgement is coming, and people who profess to be Christians need to be sure they are on the right side of the fence.
I'm afraid that Mr. Rogers has been too long at The Folsom Street Fair.
First I am astonished at how many people have posted but not read what was written. The author was in no way defending the gay life style, rather she is reminding all of the Father's love of his child, even if the child is a sinner. How many of us have done things that our parents hated? But while our parents hated what we were doing they never stopped loving us.
The Son of the Father has told us that the healthy have no need of a physcian, only the sick. Some of the comments I read were not inspired by the God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Jesus, but from Satan. If you serve the carpenter, you do not speak words of hate, rather you extend your love to all, as our Father does.
So the truth is God loves His children, Gays, whores, politicians, all of them and as was written in the parable of the prodigal son, is waiting for us to turn our backs on a lifestyle of self-destruction and return to Him.
prespilot68
You are right about Mosaic Law. It has three parts: Moral, Civil and Ceremonial. The inadequacy Jesus nullified because he totally fullfilled the law with his sacrifice. Surely we can follow the moral laws of the Ten Commandments, but what about all the other stuff? Paul says in Galatians 3:11, " But that no man is justified by the Law in the sight of God, it is evident: for The just shall live on faith". Before Christ, if you murdered someone, how were you forgiven for your sin? If you committed adultry what was the punishment for your sin? How were you forgiven? After Jesus's sacrifice, how were you forgiven? What happens when you accept Christ as your savior? Sin is a choice, but we are also born in origional sin by Adam's downfall.
Jack Rogers is from San Francisco,what else would you expect him to say.Jack needs to read his Bible,It makes it very clear that homesexuality is a sin.People like Jack only see things like they want to see them,like the old saying,Cant see the forest for all the trees.His belifes in this area makes him see that maybe his lifestyle is OK.Is view makes it OK for him,them to live in sin and belive its OK.One day he will find out he has only been deceiveing himself and thousands of others,he will stand before God and explain to God why he lived or belived the way he did.I agree with the post by John 5796.Short but to the point.
Watch
Wow....Never realized the 10 Commandments were the 10 Suggestions! We CANT Keep God's Laws???? Then according to your theology this makes God's Laws - bad laws. Any law that is passed by a government whereby society is completely unable to comply with would be consider grievous! Original Sin??? Again, historically Jews NEVER beleived in Sin Nature or Original Sin - this is a sick Calvinistic (Greek philosophy) idea. Sin my friend is a moral CHOICE not something that I can rub off on somebody! Its not some DNA that I can pass along to my kids! Instead sin is the WILLFUL disobedience to God's known LAWS! BTW - be careful in the NT whenever someone references "the Law" as they often are speaking of the civil and health laws and NOT the moral law!
Merkin,
The origional post was to point out Jesus pointing out the Pharisee's hypocracy. Secondly, the thing about the inadequacy of the law is this:
1: Mosaic Law is inadequate because no one can completely follow the law because of our origional sin.
2: Jesus pointed this inadequacy out in the passage by refering to "Corban." Also, later in the passage by talking about food.
3: Jesus pointed out that a person is defiled from inside and not by what we eat, which points to the inadequacy of the law because the law stated all sorts of things would defile you if you ate them or didn't clean them a certain way ect.
4: the whole point was made from this passage because the above article was written by someone who is teaching something false. Just like the Pharisees were doingwith the laws.
The point is this. Jesus nullified the Mosaic law because no one could keep it. He nullified it with His suffering on the Cross and His resurection. What does this have to do with sexual immorality? Well, I'm not pointing out the archaic Mosaic laws to support my argument homosexuality is wrong but I am pointing to Jesus and why it is wrong. When we commit ourselves to Christ, we are new creations. You leave your sin or "Sin no more." Homosexuality is defined as sin. People can change if they come to Christ, see what Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11. Why is homosexuality wrong in the Christain belief? It blurs and confuses people of the Passion of Jesus Christ. What is his passion? His Bride. What is his Bride? The church. What does Jesus define as a marriage? A husband and wife, which is a man and a woman. You see, homosexuality says, "Love your own kind. A Reflection of who you are." Thus, love between two men does not properly depict Jesus's love for the church and love between two women does not depict properly the church's love for Jesus. It skews it, perverts it and clouds it. So, for a Christain to accept the practice of homosexuality, they have no passion for Person of Jesus Christ. They are to clouded in sin and are in love with themselves. Satan is sneaky. He wants to confuse us and blur the Person and Passion of Christ. Once again to reitterate. I don't hate the person. I don't condone, support or tolerate the lifestyle. I pray for the person so that Jesus will find and touch their heart.
This San Fransisco "theologian" obviously has never read the Bible. If you want to see multiple scriptures that comdems this filth, I'd be glad to post them here. This is a non-issue if one just reads the Bible.
The main problem with the arguments for and against homosexuality is that all of us seem to elevate the sin of homosexuality above other sins.The truth is that homosexuality falls into the same sinful catagory as adultry and fornication.It is not our place as christians to condemn homosexuality in particular and turn a blind eye to so much obvious sin that surrounds us.Its not even our place to try and get homosexuals to change their behavior.It is our place to pray for these people and do our best to lead them to Christ,and then let the Spirit of the Lord to deal with and shape these people.The fact is that Jesus loves homosexuals just as much as anybody else,and He died on the cross for them just as much as He did for you or me.So we who claim to be Christ like must love all of the same people that Jesus loved and died for.
The Watch,
Jesus is clearly saying that Moses’ law and God’s law are one and the same -- which seems to be your original point in quoting the passage, so I’m not sure what you’re trying to clarify. When he talks about the inadequacies of man’s law, as you put it, and he goes on to say “nothing a person puts into his body makes him unclean,” he’s specifically referring to the Pharisee’s eating taboos. My point was that NOBODY follows Moses’ laws anymore as they are chock full of really awful advice (i.e. capital punishment for snobby children), and so it’s hypocritical for you to invoke these archaic rules in order to back up your argument against homosexuality.
Merkin I didn't include Mark 7: 9-13 and your right, he does chides the crowd for not following the law of Moses or actually applying the laws as they see fit. He actually is pointing out the inadequencies of the law in one's salvation because no one can truly follow them. Later in the scripture He also states that "What goes into a man does not defile him but what comes out is what defiles him." Our lord is talking about the sin in our hearts, not the food in our stomachs. Verse 17-18 says: "17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." Sin has been with us whether you chose to believe that since the Garden of Eden. We are born with it and it is what keeps us seperate from God until we make the choice to accept Jesus as our personal savoir. The passage is finished in verses 20-23, when our Lord says: "20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
GallantReflex: then I will think for you.
wow...i must have hit a nerve. I will pray for you
GallantReflex: I suspect you are projecting your own authoritarianism to make god in your image.
Almighty God is an authoritarian God. Deal with it.
The Watch quotes Jesus In Mark chapter 7, and interestingly cuts off his quote at verse 8. Is it perhaps because Jesus, in verses 9-11, makes some fairly drastic implications - chiding his audience for failing to remember that it is the law of Moses to put anyone who curses his father and mother to DEATH? Well I guess Isaiah's prophecy applies to all of you.
If the answer to "Why is homosexuality bad?" is "Because its a sin, and its a sin because god said so," that isn't a justification, that's authoritarianism. It seems arbitrary to make distinctions between heterosexual and homosexual sex in light of the fact that nobody is demanding that heterosexuals not be allowed to marry or that they lose their rights if they can't have or don't want to have children. It demonstrates that the whole "the purpose of marriage is procreation" claim is just a front for discriminating against gays and lesbians out of bigotry.
I believe all these liberal interpitations of scripture comes from a gross misunderstanding of God's "All encompassing Love" and forgiveness. Although God loves each of us, he hates sin. Because of our sin, without Jesus, we are seperated from God. When we commit to Jesus being the Lord of our lives and our personal savior; acknowledging his commitment and sacrifice on the Cross with the defeat of death with his resurection; Our sins are then forgiven. Paul says at that time: "We are a new creation." It doesn't mean we go out and keep doing what we were doing, but we go forth in our lives with God as the guide. Doesn't mean you won't fall down or have trials, but it does mean we have the answer. There isn't nothing in life, no trail or situation that isn't answered in the Bible. We open our hearts to him in prayer supplication and thanksgiving.
As far as homosexuals, I have no hate for them. I don't condone their lifestyle nor will I support it. Same goes with adultry, pornography, or any other sexual immorality. I pray that those involved in these sins hear Jesus's call and understand He is freedom from these sins.
Any one who reads the Bible with out looking to justify an agenda can clearly understand the Bible does indeed list homosexual activity in a list of other sins that will keep one from the Kingdom of God. There is no doubt about this.
I do agree that the NT does not condemn individuals but calls them to repent. All unrepentant are condemned already because they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Light has come, men reject the Light because there deeds are evil...
Jesus would tell a homosexual the same thing He told the woman taken in adultery: Neither do I condemn you, go & sin no more. Go & sin no more!!!
Probably the reason that homosexuals want freedom to practice their perversion is to gain equal recognition & standing with sexual deviance in the 'straight' world. Fornication & adultery are rampant. Gee thanks Hollywood! And other media. Where is the stand against them as well? These are also not acceptable in the sight of God.
It is not right to pick & choose. We must stand against all sexual deviance, not just homosexual sin.
The above poster is right. The man is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
We must start thinking differently. God does not condemn ANYONE. He Loves all.
However, those who do not keep his word, bring condemnation on themselves by their
own choosing. He is NOT waiting to "slug" us when we make a mistake. He is a God
of restoration.
Just out of curiosity, if you didn't think the bible opposed gays or if you thought that the bible was silent on the matter, what would youthink of gays then?
Correcting a mistake I made.. leven should be leaven.
Jesus says in Mark 7:
"6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘ This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’[b]
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men[c]—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
This theologian is just another false teacher. Just another piece of leven. Be strong in the word and see his incorrectness. Wear the Armor of God that Paul tells us to wear in Ephesians 6:10-20. Read Jude and see his warninings and consequences of false teachings.