Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Church|Sat, Oct. 06 2007 09:44 AM EDT

Theologian Claims Bible Does Not Condemn Gays

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

A Presbyterian theologian is visiting several churches this fall refuting the common Christian interpretation of the Bible that Jesus and Scripture opposes homosexuality.

  • Jack Rogers,
    (Photo: University of South Carolina / File)

Jack Rogers, professor of Theology Emeritus at San Francisco Theological Seminary, is trying to get a positive word out in the Christian churches about the gay and lesbian community and thinks churches should be leading the charge for their equal rights.

“I’m trying to help people understand that the Bible rightly interpreted, which I would think is through the lens of Jesus’ redemptive life and ministry ... does not condemn Christian people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered," said Rogers, according to The Lawrence Journal-World.

He makes that argument in the book Jesus, the Bible and Homosexuality: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church. The former Fuller Theological Seminary professor and former moderator of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) launched his fall book tour last week and is currently making stops at churches and ministries to speak on the controversial topic.

Rogers says those who argue that the Bible condemns gays and lesbians are taking biblical literalism too far and feels there is excessively negative words in the religious community, according to the Journal-World.

His fall tour comes as Daniel Karslake's documentary "For the Bible Tells Me So" was set to release in Manhattan on Friday. The film supports homosexuals and presents the religious right as misusing the Bible to condemn gay people.

Amid increasing efforts by some to equate the condemnation of sin with the condemnation of sinners, conservative critics have expressed regret over what they say is a misapplication of Scripture.

"Scripture is God’s Word written," communications coordinator Jenny Noyes of the conservative Anglican Communion Network has said. "Man’s sinful mis-application of Scripture does not negate the authority or truth of it today.”

The Anglican Communion Network along with the worldwide Anglican Communion holds that homosexual practice is incompatible with Scripture. Most mainline denominations stand on similar positions but have been wracked with division as homosexuality has become one of the most hotly debated issues in the Church today.

Craig Detweiler, director of Reel Spirituality, a think-tank for pastors and filmmakers at Fuller Theological Seminary said Karslake's documentary "represents one side (pro-homosexual) of an ongoing argument, and the filmmakers seemed very interested in evoking a reaction.”

“I think film at its best starts conversations, but this conversation will continue for quite some time," he said, according to The Canadian Press.

Since his book release in 2006, Rogers has given some 60 presentations on the debated topic and a third of his audiences have been gay and lesbian people wanting to hear that God loves them, he said.

While more evangelical Christians have come to recognize the need to preach love to homosexuals, they say they are trying to meet that need – but without compromising the truth.

"Often Christians think that to love a homosexual is a compromise of their Christianity, that somehow their love would be misconstrued as condoning homosexuality," according to Christine Sneeringer, director of Worthy Creations, an Exodus International ministry – one of the nation's largest organizations dealing with homosexuality.

But Christians are called to love their neighbor, she said, and a Christian's message must balance love and truth – the truth being that homosexuality is a sin.

Ex-gay Tim Wilkins, a Baptist, also teaches congregations across the country that the Church has a responsibility to proclaim that homosexuality is a sin. At the same time, however, he tells them they have a responsibility to share the redemptive message of Christ.

"Homosexuality is a sin and freedom from same-sex attractions is available through Jesus Christ," he says.

Rogers, who acknowledges in his book that he has not specialized in the issue as a biblical scholar, says he did not always support homosexuality. It wasn’t until his pastor charged him in 1993 to be a part of a study at the church on the issue and after months of studying the Bible on matter of homosexuality that Rogers had a change of heart. And now he's sharing that change of his understanding with other Christians.

Rogers' next lecture and book signing is scheduled for Oct. 9 at Grace Covenant Church in Overland Park, Kan.

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  • Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    The word of God is Spirit and they are revealed/interpreted by the Holy Spirit.Those in the flesh will not understand the correct and true meaning as God intended it to be.Those in the flesh are those who have personal attachment(either are gay or just angry) and are not doing this discussion for the benefit of the Church but for their own satisfaction and gratification.

  • Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Ephesians 4:14

  • Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Pander is not just a bear from China.
    Do the you think there is any harm in not promoting sex, alcohol and drugs.....
    God is the judge, Gays maybe saved, but clearly if we can not tell or sell grace I would stick with tradition, and this standard has caused suffering to the upright, and glorified the "sinner" Ironic hun?

  • Thu May 01, 2008 9:13 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Let God be the judge people.

  • Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    1man makes a lot of sense about bible transcripts, but one argument scholars use about the quality of manuscripts is that when you compare the thousands and thousands of Greek manuscripts (which 99% agree) you can eliminate copy errors and changes. This works something like 30 people copy a book, and the 30 copies are compared for typos. All will have typos but usually 29 won't have any given typo found in any single other manuscript. So by synthesizing the 30 copies, you probably get an original copy.

    Here's a quick link to a site that covers most the arguments about manuscript reliability. http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/ca/ca_06.htm

    As for interpretation of language and meaning: although the 66 books of the bible were written over 1500 years in three languages, they all have a single clear message which transcends questions of intrepretation. That message is that we're sinful, God provides a saviour, and we're nuts not to agree to both those propositions. ;o)

  • 1man »
    Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:34 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Rogers says those who argue that the Bible condemns gays and lesbians are taking biblical literalism too far .....What I'm saying is that even basic simple sentences in the Bible are open to interpretation. You can believe in the Bible, but we are reading a very flawed book, one riddled with errors, as any biblical scholar will tell you. Then compound that with the fact that it has been translated through several languages and was written over 200 years ago, and you find that interpretation is a very tricky thing. All scholars note that there are tricky issues of interpretation with Shakespeare's language, and that is in the original language and only 400 years old.
    If you want the literal word of God, you would need the original texts in Greek and Aramaic, before all the errors of copies were made. But those simply don't exist.
    I'm sorry but the bible is one of the most completely preserved books in history....to concede these statements would be to concede faith in them which if that is the case why are you trying to justify any particular interpretation or mis-interpretation? Isn't that futile if there are no original texts preserved? That's like saying hey I went outside and there was a flying pink elephant only problem is if you go out to look for him he dis appears,, a man goes out to check the validity of the statement and finds no elephant and I say I told you he dis-appears.

  • Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I don't know if Rand503 checked this Robert J. Gagnon out on Former E's suggestion, but I'm sure glad I did. He's WAY out there. I hope he gains more visibilty, so that people can see where this extremist all-or-nothing view of the bible leads.

  • Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:39 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Rand503
    May I suggest that you read some of Robert J. Gagnon's work. He is an associate professor of New Testament at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. You may gain a better understanding of 1Cor 6:9-10, Romans 1: 26-27 and the meanings of malakoi and arsenokoita.

  • Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:34 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    There are many biblical passages that refer to customs, that were believed then, that now we chalk up to being obsolete now, yet we continue to hold onto the anti-gay stuff? It's hypocrtical, to say the least.

  • Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:07 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    1 Timothy 4:1
    [ The Great Apostasy ] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
    1 Timothy 4:1-3 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.


    2 Timothy 4:3
    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
    2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.


    2 Peter 2:1
    [ Destructive Doctrines ] But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
    2 Peter 2:1-3 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
    2 Peter 2:4
    [ Doom of False Teachers ] For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
    2 Peter 2:3-5 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
    2 Peter 2:12
    [ Depravity of False Teachers ] But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
    2 Peter 2:11-13 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
    2 Peter 2:18
    [ Deceptions of False Teachers ] For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
    2 Peter 2:17-19 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:01 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 3

    Let me give just one example of how dangerous it is to take a 'literal' reading of the Bible. Timothy says that there are group of people who won't make it to heaven, including adulterers, thieves, etc. Today, many bibles include the word 'homosexuals.' My Bible, which was printed in 1850, uses the word 'effeminate."
    (1 Timothy 1:9-11).

    There are two major issues to consider when one approaches these passages: translation and sexual practices of Greek culture. A comparison of these verses in several translations of the Bible indicates that there is some confusion about how to translate two Greek words in these lists of vices Paul has enumerated. The two words are arsenokoitai which is rendered in various translations as “homosexuals,” “sodomites,” “child molesters,” or “perverts” and malakoi which is rendered in various translations as “catamites,” “the effeminate,” or “boy prostitutes.”

    These Greek words are difficult to translate in the context of these passages. Malakoi is a common term and means “soft.” It can refer to clothing (Matthew 11:8) or moral matters, meaning “undisciplined.” Arsenokoitai is a rare word and is made up of arseno meaning “man,” and koitai meaning “bed, lying, or having sex with.” When put together the word may mean “male prostitutes.”

    So which is it? Did Timothy mean all gay men? Lesbians? Only male prosititutes? Or any boy who throws a ball like a girl? And why does my Bible, which is KJV, say effeminate, but not homosexual? Who changed it since then, and why?

    You'd better be darn sure before you claim to know the word of God.

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:13 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    altrisk: But there are many Christians who read the exact same Bible and find no need to be 'born again' and think that you are reading it wrong. Who is right?

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:12 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 3

    Chris, some people, including the Mormons, believe that masturbation is a sin. Others believe not. Who is right? The Cathlicis used to believe that eating meat on Friday was a sin. Then they changed it and said it is not. Perhaps you don't like it, but the Southern Baptists for over 100 years believed that the Bible sanctioned slavery. What about the Commandmand against killing? Some people believe it's okay to kill in time of war, others' do not. Some believe euthanasia is okay, some do not. Some say it's okay to kill in self defense, others do not.
    What I'm saying is that even basic simple sentences in the Bible are open to interpretation. You can believe in the Bible, but we are reading a very flawed book, one riddled with errors, as any biblical scholar will tell you. Then compound that with the fact that it has been translated through several languages and was written over 200 years ago, and you find that interpretation is a very tricky thing. All scholars note that there are tricky issues of interpretation with Shakespeare's language, and that is in the original language and only 400 years old.
    If you want the literal word of God, you would need the original texts in Greek and Aramaic, before all the errors of copies were made. But those simply don't exist.
    And if the word is so clear, then why are there so many different intrepretations on so many areas within Christianity?
    All I'm saying is that you might be wrong. personally, I think it is pretty arrogant to think that anyone knows the one whole absolute truth of God, but that's just me.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:29 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Rand,

    No it is not reinterpreting the Bible, it is rewriting it. That is the only way you are going to make a case that it approves of homosexuality. I do not want to get into another argument about this, but the Bible does not say slavery is good.

    Also, it does not matter if every church in the world says that something is right. It only matters what the word of God says.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:06 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    Just because he is a theologian doen not mean he is saved. 2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. In fact I am convinced that a truly born-again child of God will never reject or twist the true meaning of Gods beloved Word.

    "You will know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free" !!! Joh 8:32

  • Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:15 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Actually, there are several mainstream churches that find that homosexuality is no sin. That includes reformed and conservative Judaism, many of the Episcopal and Prysbeterian churches, the Unitarian and Universalist churches, as well as the MCC. Many biblical scholars have found there is no evidence to support condemnation of gays. It is to these churches that gays have found the most acceptance, and so they go there.

  • Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:08 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 4

    I'm not talking about rewriting the bible. I'm talking about re-interpreting it. Not too long ago, there were people who were absolutely sure that the Bible supported and endorsed slavery. Today, you will find virtually none. What changed? Not the Bible, but a better understanding of what truth really is.

    Jack Rogers makes a good case, but he's far from the only one. There is quite a bit of biblical scholarship that finds that your interpretation may not be right on the mark. I would recommend a book, "What the Bible Really Says ABout Homosexuality" to see that other, equally sincere, equalily inquisitive, find that the condemnation of gays isn't as solid as you think, and might actually not even exist.

  • Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:45 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    Well then Rand, we would need to rewrite the Bible. If you rewrite the Bible then who is to say that pedophilia is a sin?

  • Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:42 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    What if the real truth were, as this Pastor suggests, that homosexuality is NOT a sin? Then what?

  • Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:10 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    We know from Paul’s writings that at the last trump, when the trumpet sounds the dead in Christ will rise first and those believers on earth will be changed in an instant and receive our new immortal bodies 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, “Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

    This raises the question, if there had already been a Christian rapture seven years earlier, why would Paul be telling them that he expects them to still be on earth (remembering that Paul did not know the timing of the Lord’s return and wrote with the expectation that perhaps it would be during his lifetime)?

  • Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Did Noah get saved from the flood? or through the flood? Did Shardrac, Meshac and abendigo get saved from the fire? or through the fire? Did Daniel get saved from the Lion's den? or through the Lion's den? Did christ get saved from crucifixion? or through it? Did the Jews get saved from the 10 plagues of Egypt? or through the 10 Plagues of Egypt? And the list goes on, none were raptured away.

  • Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:20 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    hey Prophet, i noticed on another post that you email "The Watch". How can I go about getting an email address so I can communicate with you a little more about apologetics, end times, etc? ANd if one is not available, then don't worry dude; i can always post on the site and talk to you here. Happy Thanksgiving.

  • Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:03 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    fallen_miracle:

    "If you are referring to a secret rapture, than I must add that belief is not biblical, and was started by a plymouth brethren leader by the name of Darby, and later taken on by Hal Lindsey in his book"The late, great planet earth" which is a book that has poor theology in it"

    let me ask you one question: Do you study greek and latin? The word harpazo and rapturo do appear biblically, and there is sufficient proof biblically to substantiate for a "snatching away" (rapturiong) of the saints prior to God's Wrath (The Great Tribulation) being poured out in the book of Revelation, so I would have to say that you are trully missing a point here, and this is not poor theology. Look at the whole context of Scripture my brother. God did not poor out His wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah until the righteous - Lot and his wife were removed. Lot's wife of course turned her head in disobedience after the angel of the Lord told her not to (this can be compared to the Christian that turns their back on God to return to the world), and the fruit of her sin was turning into a pillar of salt. I can also name the FLood and how God poured out His wrath on sinful humanity after He told the righteous man Noah to build an ark and God gave sufficient time for the people to repent and go with Noah, but they refused, and kept on eating and drinking, etc......Then the Flood came and wiped out the rebellious to God, but the key point is that God spared/protected the righteous from His wrath being pourted out. The Bible does not promise believers a rosy road in the park all the time; we wil have tribulations and trials, but this is way different in context to a Great Tribulation being poured out on sinful man. SO don't say this is poor thelogy. Read the whole counsel of God; not just the parts that you would like to interpret for yourself. What bridegroom batters his wife to be prior to the wedding? Christ is our Bridegroom, and if we as His Bride are ready, then we wil be raptured. Jesus said to pray that we may be counted worthy to escape these things.

    Prophet:

    go to http://www.raptureready.com/...., and do not be dismayed.

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Of course it was a physical place!! look around you, everything of nature you see is what is left of Eden, and the broken up continents we all live on. But on the day that Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge they died spiritually and were booted out of that realm, no longer being able to converse face to face with God.

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    so the garden of eden wasn't a physical place?

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It could well be, but in the spiritual dimension that we were kicked out of when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden.

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    do you believe that where God and his angels "exist' is a geographical area somewhere withing our universe?

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    i am what i am....as popeye would say.

    so a spiritual place in a physical world.....

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    If you have broadband than watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRAu4qkwBys&feature=related

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Heaven is going to be here on the new earth. And are you a pentecostal?

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Isaiah 65 sounds like a new earth to me...
    and revelations..yes..."adorned as a Bride"....and don't forget later on in that chapter "...And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
    And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;..." there it is again...the Bride of Christ....

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    There is so much more scripture that talks about heaven, this is only a small taste. Judging by your limited knowledge of scripture, I am going to take a guess and say you belong to a pentecostal charismatic church?

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them, and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." (NASB) Revelation 20:1-4

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And there will no longer be heard in her the voice of weeping and the sound of crying. No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Shall be thought accursed. And they shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall also plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build, and another inhabit, they shall not plant, and another eat; for as the lifetime of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, and My chosen ones shall wear out the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain, or bear children for calamity; for they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD, and their descendants with them. It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. (NASB) Isaiah 65:19-24

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Speaking of how the animals will be in Heaven Isaiah 11:7 Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox.

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    In the beginning humans were in relationship with God, the earth and each other. The fall damaged these relationships, but each of them will be perfectly restored in heaven. All the ‘sketches’ of life in the new heaven and new earth are corporate rather than individualistic. For example, a perfect city (Hebrews 13:14) and a wedding feast (Revelation 19:7-10). Despite the importance of relationships in heaven it appears that marriage won’t be a component of our heavenly life. Matthew 22:30 says, “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Christians often speak of ‘living with God in heaven for ever’. However, the Bible provides us with a much fuller picture. It speaks of the destruction and subsequent renewal of all creation (2 Peter 3:10-13) - a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1). All of creation will be set right (Romans 8:18-21) and there will be no more pain and suffering (Revelation 21:4).

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Many people believe that heaven is just a ‘state of being’. However, the Bible clearly describes it as a place (John 14:2-4). In Acts 1:9-11 we read of Jesus’ resurrection body returning to heaven and Paul in his letters to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 15:35-49 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-10) speak of how in heaven we will have resurrection bodies that will last forever. Heaven is not just a state of being, nor is it a place where just our ‘spirits’ live forever; it’s a real place where we will have real bodies.

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him" (I Cor.2:9).

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "And they shall see His face; His name shall be on their foreheads and there shall no longer be any night and they shall not have need of the light of the lamp nor of the light of the sun because the Lord God shall illumine them and they shall reign forever and ever." [Rev. 22:4-5]

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    and, no, the Bible doesnt talk about heaven. show me the scripture....

  • Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And i, too, have used Bible quotes. but you will say that i've twisted them, or interpreted them a certain way. which I could accuse you fo the same...ergo that's why i said that the POSSIBILITY is there that you could be misleading me. I capitilized that word because you apparently didn't read in my last post where i said "I'm not saying that you are, but it could be just as true as not.". All you heard was that you were misleading me. but i will say this..you are way too argumentive.

  • Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    How am I trying trying to mislead you? All I have done is used bible quotes, i have stuck to the word of God. And nobody knows when the day comes if they are going to stand or fall, for there is going to be many who say Lord, Lord that will not make it into heaven. And the bible does talk a little about Heaven, its going to be here on earth, God is going to make us the capital of the Universe and replant the garden of Eden. It also says that the Lion will lay down with the Lamb and eat straw, and that the beasts from the wild shall be led by a child, all references to the fact that we will all be restored back to our vegetarian ways as it says everything was in Genesis.

  • Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    fallen miracle...i know this will probably offend you, but what if YOU'RE trying to mislead ME? I'm not saying that you are, but it could be just as true as not. My conscience is clear before God. I know when that day comes, my relationship with Him will be strong enough to endure. I know that even now there are teachings that are preached from the pulpits that reek with compromise, deception, immorality, etc. If you want to piddle around with trivial things like what happens after we die, while you ignore the man that preaches the toleration of homosexuality, then go ahead. If you want to get trivial...think about this...the Bible never describes heaven. I have my beliefs about that, but I don't go around smacking everyone in the head with it like a baseball bat trying to get them to see my opinion. I'm too busy trying to just get them to see that they should love like Chrst did. Sure, I could get them to see my point and even concede! But if i haven't shown, or taught, them love...i've failed.

  • Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    This is the thing, you are missing the whole point of God's message, which is a dangerous thing to do I might add, since we are in the last days and once the man of sin appears and starts performing miracles it says "That even the very elect may be deceived", so if you don't know what the bible truly says about the state of the dead and other things as well you won't stand a chance. So don't say I am not trying to educate you out of love.

  • Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    let me repost what i said earlier:

    But you're missing my point anyway...i was using that as an example...not so you could use it as a springboard to begin another debate, or to insult me. you are an argumentive person. I can handle talking to someone about differences of opinion, but not with someone who claims to be a Christian, but can't extend Christs love to a brother. My convictions run deep...as do my conviction about love.

  • Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:24 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wow, fallenmiracle, you're still not getting it. you're so wrapped in arguing points, that you're not getting the point.

  • Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    If you are referring to a secret rapture, than I must add that belief is not biblical, and was started by a plymouth brethren leader by the name of Darby, and later taken on by Hal Lindsey in his book"The late, great planet earth" which is a book that has poor theology in it.

  • Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    But why does He need to rapture us? Why can't he just come back and wipe out the sinners. But you're missing my point anyway...i was using that as an example...not so you could use it as a springboard to begin another debate, or to insult me. you are an argumentive person. I can handle talking to someone about differences of opinion, but not with someone who claims to be a Christian, but can't extend Christs love to a brother. My convictions run deep...as do my conviction about love.

  • Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    What is the point of Jesus coming back the second time? umm because he is going to put an end to sin and suffering, and restore this world to its Edenic state so we can live eternally in paradise the way we were meant to from the start. You better start reading your bible.

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