Christians in America may be soon witnessing a larger push to reveal the love of God in their lives and to think twice about how they confront sin – especially after a recent Barna survey found that just 16 percent of non-Christians in their late teens and twenties said they have a “good impression” of Christianity.
More specifically, most young non-Christians who The Barna Group approached said they felt Christianity is judgmental (87 percent), hypocritical (85 percent), and too involved in politics (75 percent), among other negative perceptions.
Furthermore, 91 percent of young non-Christians and 80 percent of young churchgoers say present-day Christianity is "anti-homosexual."
"As the research probed this perception, non-Christians and Christians explained that beyond their recognition that Christians oppose homosexuality, they believe that Christians show excessive contempt and unloving attitudes towards gays and lesbians," the Barna report stated.
Young Christians largely criticize churches, saying they have made homosexuality a "bigger sin" than anything else and that churches have not helped them apply the biblical teaching on homosexuality to their friendships with gays and lesbians.
Amid news of the report, many Christian leaders are reminding believers of the greatest commandment given to them by God.
"Often Christians think that to love a homosexual is a compromise of their Christianity, that somehow their love would be misconstrued as condoning homosexuality," according to Christine Sneeringer, director of Worthy Creations, a ministry of Exodus International – one of the nation's largest organizations dealing with homosexuality.
But Christians are called to love their neighbor, she recalls, while also pointing out that a Christian's message must balance love and truth – the truth being that homosexuality is a sin.
Tim Wilkins, an ex-gay Baptist, also teaches congregations across the country that the Church has a responsibility to proclaim that homosexuality is a sin. At the same time, however, he tells them they have a responsibility to share the redemptive message of Christ.
"Homosexuality is a sin and freedom from same-sex attractions is available through Jesus Christ," he says.
Some more liberal Christians, however, in their push to embrace homosexual persons, have gone too far and have strayed from the foundation laid by the Bible.
Presbyterian theologian Jack Rogers, for example, is visiting several churches this fall refuting the common Christian interpretation of the Bible that Jesus and Scripture opposes homosexuality.
The professor of Theology Emeritus at San Francisco Theological Seminary is trying to get a positive word out in Christian churches about the gay and lesbian community and thinks churches should be leading the charge for their equal rights.
“I’m trying to help people understand that the Bible rightly interpreted, which I would think is through the lens of Jesus’ redemptive life and ministry ... does not condemn Christian people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered," said Rogers, according to The Lawrence Journal-World.
Rogers acknowledges in his book, “Jesus, the Bible and Homosexuality: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church,” that he has not specialized in the issue of homosexuality as a biblical scholar. Still, he says those who argue that the Bible condemns gays and lesbians are taking biblical literalism too far and feels there is excessively negative words in the religious community, according to the Journal-World.
Another Christian leader who is making a push for the equal rights of homosexuals is Episcopal Church Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, whose denomination has riled the worldwide Anglican Communion with its unwavering support for sexually active gay clergy and the blessing of same-sex couples. Continue >>
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Jesus Christ would not stone a homosexual as long as a homosexual decides to refrain from homosexual act and seeks pardon in the name of God.
aberdeen,
At best, you are confused. God did not say all sexuality is sinful. He said some types of sex are sinful.
Romans 14:23b
everything that does not come from faith is sin.
James 4:17
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
Ephesians 5:11
Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
Psalm 361:-3 1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes. 2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin. 3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
This is from the mouth of Christ:
Luke 16:15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.â€Â
So often we want to embrace our sin and justify ourselves instead of embrace truth and recognize and reject our sin.
Jesus would not have stoned someone, as His time had not yet come. He would be patient, waiting for people to come to Him. However, there will come a time when God's patience will be at its limit. At that time, Jesus will judge everyone, and the one's who do not love Him, and show their love through obedience, will be sent to the lake of Fire, the second death.
2 Timothy 4:1-3
1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourageâ€â€with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Rev 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
According to the Letter to Romans, all human beings are sinners and thus, all human sexuality is sinful. It doesn't surprise me that non-Christians believe you condemn homosexuals, because anytime you place your own sexuality as being better than anyone else's, you are condemning them, as most certainly the author of the Letter to Romans agrees: "Therefore, you are inexcusable" whoever judges another.
One might also ask, Who Would Jesus Bomb?, Who Would Jesus Hate and brand an "illegal"?, Whose Health Care Would Jesus Cut?, Would Jesus Pretend to Care About the Unborn While Ignoring the Sick and Poor Who are Already Born? Would Jesus Ignore the Environment of Our Children's Future? And, etc...
Richard Aberdeen
www.FreedomTracks.com
The Bible wasn't written by God nor was it written by Jesus. The bible was written by men. It has it's strengths and it's discrepancies. You should take in with a grain of salt. In addition, there are thousands of ways to interpret the bible.
Jesus was never "cool with" any form of immorality.
Lev 20:13, If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death....
One day the Lords says gays are an abdomination and shall surely be put to death, the next day Jesus is cool with them. Sounds like a flip flop to me...
Of course Jesus wouldn't stone a homosexual; He didn't advocate the stoning of the woman who was caught in adultery. (It should be noted that her accusers did violate the Jewish law by bringing only her and not the adulterous man, as well.) What Jesus WOULD do is what He DID do. He would offer forgiveness of sin and, if it were received with repentance, He would then say, "Go and sin no more."
ifeelfine72, you are mistaken when you say there are no Bible-believing Christians. Every supposed example you gave was derived from the old covenant, to which present-day Christians are not subject. You neglected the new covenant entirely. A study of the book of Hebrews would be very helpful for clarification.
ifeelfine72 i hope this answers your question>
to the author of the above article and those who agree with him.
"Some more liberal Christians, however, in their push to embrace homosexual persons, have gone too far and have strayed from the foundation laid by the Bible".
ithess says test everything, keep the good. slavery which was acceptable under the
with covenants before christ and socialogically, slavery was an acceptable means for the distribution of wealth and power. but with the covenant of christ came, in addition to loving ones neighbor, came loving ones enemy as well. and no more was credit given for loving those who loved us , but instead for loving those who didnt love us. because of this the understanding of the commandment was now,.. to love everyone. thru this came the umderstanding of individual rights. tested thru all this, slavery now became an unacceptable evil. however it took almost 2000 years, for that love understanding not to be limited by ethnicity or nationality.........ergo the unacceptability of slavery.
note the testing came not from a remunerating of scripture or traditional teaching but came thru fellowship with those who were victims of our limitating understanding of love. because test comes thru fellowship........"which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—"
continued
1 john "if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellow3ship with one another.........."
"john16:12I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
so, aside from the fact those who condemn homosexuality as a sin cannot explain, how the scriptures they stand on, say homosexuality is a sin. or say what is the spirit of the essence of the spirit of homosexuality, that it would come against the spirit of christ and love your neighbor as yourself.
my question is again. in the spirit of "test everything , but keep the good." what is your fellowship test ( thru the holy spirit) with those who you condemn as sinners
have you really looked at them............have you listened to their hearts.......allowed them to touch you, and allowed yourself to touch them. emotionally,physically, etc, ( honoring their life experiences)
"Some more liberal Christians, however, in their push to embrace homosexual persons, have gone too far and have strayed from the foundation laid by the Bible".
these christians who were labeled in an attempt to discredit them, have made a fellowship test with homosexuals, and have found no essence of sin in the orientation.
the author who wrote the above article, and those who agree with him........ what is your test?
Someone earlier noted that Jesus stood up to the money changers, etc. He did. Notice that he always stood up for the least amongst us (the blind, crippled, poor, etc) and spoke out against those in power (money changers, the rich, etc). He spoke Truth to power and that is why he was killed.
As for the actual content of the article:
"More specifically, most young non-Christians who The Barna Group approached said they felt Christianity is judgmental (87 percent), hypocritical (85 percent), and too involved in politics (75 percent), among other negative perceptions."
I'm a Christian and couldn't agree more with that assessment.
chk555 - where did you get your psychology degree from? Pre-homosexuality? That is absolutely ridiculous.
Nobody takes the Bible literally. No one. Show me a "Bible believing Christian" and I'll show you a liar.
The fact is, we all interpret it according to our own agenda. Mainstream Christianity doesn't endorse polygamy, marrying the very young, widowed women getting pregnant by their deceased husband's brother, slavery, concubinage, no intercourse within seven days of menses, stoning women who commit adultry, etc and yet the Bible endorses and in some instances even mandates these things.
Look, abolitionists during the mid-1800's certainly didn't have the Bible on their side (it was more on the side of the slave owners) and yet that movement was rooted in Christian faith. All I'm saying is that the cultural interpretation of the Bible has changed over time and based on our understanding of things.
I'm sure someone will trot out a passage about the inerrancy of the Bible or how it never changes - but it has and our interpretation of it does too.
homosexuals marry. so are so merely speaking against the unmarried. if heterosexuals can sinfully lust why should not homosexuals do the same. in either case does that invalidate the orientation.
if you think homosexuality is a sin, what is the spirit(our battle being against powers and principalities) of the essence of homosexuality that it would come against love of the father, love of neighbor and self, and fulfillment of the law, which is love.
in regard to obedience we obey that which we love, and obedience, according to scripture that is without love, is nothing. scripture says we see in part through a glass darkly, a poor reflection. why is it that believers knowing this, allow their understanding of the law to influence who they will fellowship with, when scripture says.....................
"if we walk in the light as he is in the light we will have fellowship with one another, and the blood of christ purifies us from all sin"
when we fellowship, regardles with whom we fellowship, we are covered and protected by the blood of christ.
part of fellowship is honoring the life experiences of another............that is ,yes,........ this was felt, this was received, yes, this was experienced
"That's the will of the Father to abstain from sexual immorality, which equals no sex outside marriage for anybody striaght or gay. It is a sin."
how do you make the leap from hebrews and mark............................and without any annotation.
sexual immorality would be any sexual behavior that comes against love of neighbor and love of self.
." In John 15 He says If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as i have obeyed my Fathers commands and remain in His love. What are Jesus commands? Same as Gods. John 1 sasy that Jesus is the word and again Jesus said not one jot or tittle will go away till heaven and earth pass away."
Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law
if love is the fulfullment of the law then anything.............anything that is without love, ....ANYTHING DONE without love of neighbor and self, love of god, and loving ONE ANOTHER. is against the fufillment of the law. with love comes fellowship...........loving that which god loves and gave his son to save.
yet heterisexual believers refuse any fellowship with homosexual believers.
1 John 2:9
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
1 John 2:8-10 (in Context) 1 John 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 2:11
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
1 John 2:10-12 (in Context) 1 John 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
1 John 3:14-16 (in Context) 1 John 3 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 4:20
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he
the response of believers to those who are gay, even gay believers, those, who share the same inheritance. instead of fellowship in christ acknowledging the glory that both share, they deem pariahs, over a disagreement on a point, on an interpretation, in the law. rejecting without any witness(which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched), without any test of the spirit.........................for a belief system that stands on the law which scripture says is imperfection, instead of on christ which is perfection.
my personal opinion is that because of centuries of institutional and societal bashing passed from generation to generation,, apart from anything to do with the law, some believers refuse to believe that anything homosexual, lesbian, or transgender could possibly be acceptable to the god of the faith they have invested their lives.
Continuing on Now what about this love thing that has been battered about. In Hebrews it says that Jesus became the author of eternal life to those who obey Him. What does this obey mean? Jesus said in Matt 12:46-50 and in Mark 3:35 "While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, waiting to speak to Him/ Someone told Him your mother and brother are standing outside, wanting to speak to you. He replied to him Who is my mother and who are mr brothers? Pointing to His disciples, he said. Here is my mother and brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother. What is Gods will--- Some of His will is explained in 1st Thess. 4:2-4 "It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexaul immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is Holy and honorable" That's the will of the Father to abstain from sexaul immorality, which equals no sex outside marriage for anybody striaght or gay. It is a sin.
So now about love. 1st commandment, greatest commandment, Love the Lord God with all your heart,soul,mind,strength. How do we do this? Jesus said Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father and I too will love him and show myself to him. John 14:21. In John 15 He says If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as i have obeyed my Fathers commands and remain in His love. What are Jesus commands? Same as Gods. John 1 sasy that Jesus is the word and again Jesus said not one jot or tittle will go away till heaven and earth pass away. So it all seems simple to me. I am not thiinking for God or reading His mind or judging anybody., but this is what God's word says. You can reject it or accept it but I will stand on His word for I know that it is true. Gods Blessing on you and ypurs
In Christ
Tom
To continue on. 1st Is Homesexuality a sin? If we all agree that even lusting in our thoughts can be a sin as Jesus says in Matt 5:28, and if we can say that any sexaul sin outside of marraige is a sin whether it be and actual event or just thinking about then we can come to the conclusion that yes Homosexaulity is a sin. How? Jesus said in Mark 10:8 and Eph.5:31 The we were created female and male and the man will leave his mopn and dad to be untied with his wife and the two will be one. Seems pretty simple to me.
I have been watching this debate back and forth about whether or not Jesus would stone a Homosexaul and it has been interesting to read the comments. Here are my thoughts.
im merely asking for evidence to show, that scripture does say homosexuality is a sin..........thru explanations of romans 1:24-27, the vagueness 1cor and 1tim.."defiling onesself with mankind(the original translation), the gang rape of lev, that sins committed in the commission of same sex acts no more condemns homosexuality than the incestial rape of 2 samuel condemns heterosexuality, and that not all prohibitions in lev were of themselves sins.(including some that were not sins then are sins today like slavery)
what i have received have been explanations that have assumed to know the mind of god, which is totally unscriptural even antiscriptural and other explanations that without annotation.
on a secular level there have been given no credible evidence to show that homosexuality is nothing other than a form of human bonding, and that whatever negatives happen in this bonding is not about the orientation but the people involved......the same as in heterosexuality
What would it take to convince you Feet you seem to want it both ways. We have given you the word of God and the evidence from a human prespective. I think you just refuse to see the and admit the truth that is there.
aside from asuming you know the mind of god...................his intentions and design,. and making a sociallogical judgement on normal and making it a sin issue with no scriptural annotation whatsoever., you have not answered my other questions.
Why and how is homosexuality a sin is a fair question. Homosexuality is a sin because it violates God's will and plan for the human family. Homosexuality violates God's design.
Homosexual behavior is NOT normal. What is normal? Who is to say what normal is? Normal is function according to design. Homosexual behavior violates God's design for human sexuality, procreation, and the family. Homosexuals cannot have children naturally (as designed) without modern medical help, or adoption, or some other surrogate means.
Homosexual behavior denies a child either a Father or a Mother. We all know the social and moral disaster that has befallen our society when children are denied a father, now the homosexual lobby wants to further the failure by denying many children a female mother by having two daddy's. Men and woman are different, and being raised by that difference is vital for healthy child development.
Homosexuality is caused by a combination of genetic and environmental abnormalities. A boy may be born with a predisposition to emotional sensitivity, artistic talents, and expression; couple that with a distant, abusive, or nonexistent father; then add the teasing and ridicule of more aggressive and athletic boys. Combined these lead to what is known as the pre-homosexual syndrome.
The good news is that this syndrome and the homosexuality to which it leads are preventable. Preventing Homosexuality by Nicholosi is a wonderful guide for parents who want their children to have a normal psychosexual development. This guide can be found at www.narth.com.
are those that think homosexuality is a sin trying to retreat back to the time of job when, where one observing the tragedy in a man's life would conclude that it was because he had sinned. instead today it is a believer's intention upon looking on a homosexual to conclude that he is of this orientation, because he exchanged some truth for a lie and worshipped and served the created.
will you conclude that for a child, by saying his father sinned. (even though in scripture there is no such case)will you conclude that for a fellow cradle believer, that he obviously lies when he says he worships and serves jesus as his savior.
jc4me
if you believe that homosexuality is a sin, then please explain how it is a sin, why it is a sin.
to strengthen your position you appear to be crediting yourself with knowing the mind of god. when scripture says only the holy spirit knows the mind of god. it says that man sees but a poor reflection.
in terms of spirit, how does homosexuality come against the spirit of christ ...christ who are all things have been put under. christ,who the father gave everything he had......christ who withholds nothing from us.
how does it come against love your neighbor as yourself, which is the summation of ALL the law, and against loving one another which the fullfillment of the law.
in romans 1:24 what lie was exchanged for what truth, and how did they worship the created so that they were given over to homosexuality. and how does that apply to children who show a disposition to that orientation at an early age or to believers who having been raised in the church came to know christ long before they were aware of their orientation?
It is no wonder to me why so many young people today have such a negative attitude toward Christians when so much media is devoted portraying Christians as mindless, bigoted, homophobes and worse.
It is no wonder when humanists teachers in secular schools by design do the same thing. Barna should have asked how many devoted and faithful Christians do you actually know and do you think they are judgemental and hypocritical?
A better question is "Would Jesus call a homosexual to repent from thier sin (sexual and otherwise) and to following him in purity and holiness?"
Only the Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can cleanse us of all unrighteousness and filthy sin - this does include many other things, but as it pertains to this article - adultery, fornication, and yes, homosexuality. Too many in today's church want to cover up sin, and be politically relevent to today's "culture". They water-down the Wrod of God, and twist it to make it seem more "pleasant" to the ears. Many people want to hear what feesds their ego; they don;t want to hear the truth that transforms lives for their own good and for God's pleasure.
The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us are without sin. The Good News is that Jesus Christ became God in the flesh for us! He decended from his exalted heavenly place, and willfully shed His Prescious Blood and gave up His life so that we may have a relationship with God the Father our Creator.
We need to first acknowledge that we are all sinners; we need to repent - that is to literally and willfully choose to turn away from our old life of living in sins; we need to ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior of our lives (this means we hand over our free will to Him, and choose toi obey His commands and teachings). We must put our total trust and confidence ino Him, and then follow Him.
The question is, have we trully repented, and turned back from our sin. That is to say, if we're willfully, and rebelliously living in sin, have we made a conscious choice to turn from that sin, die to ourselves, pick up our crosses daily and follow Christ?
None of these sins are unpardonable, but God has given us a free choice. We must choose this day whom we will serve. Are we going to choose to gratify our flesh and live in sin, or are we going to die to ourselves, and choose to follow Christ Jesus?
Whoever doesn't truly know Christ on this site, please give your life to him. You will not regret it. He will never bring up your past. We all have pasts, but God can make you a new person, and as you continue to seek after Him and as you surrender your life to Him, He will continue to mold you and make you into the vessel of honor He wants you to be. I hope this touches someone out there, and may the Lord turn your heart to repentance. God Bless You.
Romans 1: 26-32
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Continued Scripture verses from God's Word:
Romans 1:21-25
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
While I don't believe that Jesus would stone a homosexual, or an adulterer, or a fornicator, I do believe that if they choose to follow Him, God's Word is clear that they must repent (choose to turn from their lifestyle, and be conformed to Christ). Homosexuality is a sin, regardless of today's situational ethics, and cultural moral relativism, whetre nothing is black and white. Even some within the chutrch have twisted Scripture and interpret it in a more liberal meaning, so as to not name specific sins. These sins not only are personally damaging, but influence and drag down other's in the web of lust due to the strong emotional/physical tie that they have on the person(s) involved. Heterosexual adultery, fornication, and pornography as well as homosexuality and lesbianism displease God because these sexual sins are outside of God's perfect ordained will, which consists of 1 man, and 1 woman joined in holy matrimony for life exchanging their mutual bond of love for each other in physical union. We are called to extend Christ's love to all people, for we have all sinned and fallen short of God's glory. However, we must not forget that in extending Love, it doesn't mean that we allow for liscentiousness, living in sin when one professes to be born again, yet still actively and willfully living in sin. It does not alloe for a twisting, or overriding of Scripture to suit our own cultural relevancy of things, or our personal opinions on matters that God has been very clear on.
For those who don't believe homosexuality is sin, let's see what God's authoritative Holy and Perfect Word says. If we call ourselves born again, then we take God's Word to be the final authority on life's matter's no?:
Romans 1:16-20
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Excerpt taken from a commentary by Roger Oakland named The Inclusive Gospel from www.understandthetimes.org
".............The new evangelization program being promoted by the emerging church, while it may be in the name of Christ, is antichrist. A formula has been established to provide a bridge that has the potential to unite all religious beliefs in the name of Christ, by circumventing the gospel of Jesus Christ.
In the future we will see all faiths join together based on a common mystical experience accompanied by “lying signs and wonders”. The apostasy the Bible warned would be apparent in the Last Days is now fully underway. Only those who hold firm to God’s Word will be protected and delivered. This remnant of faithful believers will be viewed as old-fashioned narrow-minded holdouts who are a hindrance to the establishment of the “kingdom.” As Paul wrote to Timothy, in the Last Days:
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. [15]"
[15] 2 Timothy 3: 12-13
WBMOORE
MY APOLOGIES, I HAD MISQUOTED SCRIPTURE, IN SAYING "SERVING THE SPIRIT" IN ROMANS. INSTEAD PAUL HAD SAID (SERVING" IN" THE SPIRIT)
AND BEFORE CHRIST, PAUL SAYS THAT BELIEVERS SERVED " IN" THE SPIRIT TO THE WRITTEN CODE, BUT IN CHRIST WE SERVE "IN" THE SPIRIT IN A NEW WAY.
WBMOORE
BROTHER, i cannot ask for any more than that. thank you for your scriptures i have copied them for future study. in closing below is a breakdown of romans use it in whatever way, the spirit leads you.
CONCERNING RIGHTEOUSNESS
1 romans 3:20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
romans 3: 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
romans4:13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
romans5:20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
romans 6:14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
romans 7:6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
LAW IS IMPERFECT............BECAUSE IT CAN ONLY ADDRESS THE OUTWARD ACT(For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature)..............
ROMANS 8:3.......God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
ROMANS 10:4but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
ROMANS 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
ROMANS 13:10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
(CONTINUED)
CONCERNING THE LAW
romans4:13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
romans5:20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
romans 6:14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
romans 7:6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
THE LAW IS IMPERFECT............IT ADDRESSES THE OUTWARD ACT(For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature)..............BUT CHRIST CAME TO ADDRESS THE HEART. IN CHRIST, WE CAN LIVE IN PERFECTION THRU HIS GRACE. HOWEVER IF WE ARE STANDING ON THE LAW WE ARE STANDING ON IMPERFECTION...........
ROMANS 8:3.......God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
ROMANS 10:4but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
ROMANS 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
ROMANS 13:10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
1THESS 5:21Test everything. Hold on to the good.
BOC560
YET WHEN ASKED WHAT IS THE SIN, YOU REVERT BACK TO SCRIPTURE, AND ARE UNABLE TO GIVE ANy EXPLANATION OF WHAT THE SIN IS. NOBODY HAS YET AT THIS WEBSITE HAS BEEN ABLE TO EXPLAIN WHAT THE SIN IS. POINTING OUT THAT YOUR INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE SAYS IT IS A SIN DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHAT THE SIN IS . WHAT IS IT ? HOW IS IT? WHY IS IT?
SAYING ITS JUST ONE OF GOD'S RULES GIVES NO EXPLANATION OF THE ESSENCE OF THE SIN.
IN JOHN JESUS SAYS THAT EVERYTHING THAT IS THE FATHER'S HIS, AND HE HAS HELD NOTHING BACK FROM US. ARE YOU SAYING THAT JESUS DOESNT KNOW WHAT THE ESSENCE OF THE SIN OF HOMOSEXUALITY IS?
IS IT POSSIBLE YOU DO NOT KNOW, BECAUSE YOU YOURSELF HAVE NEVER TESTED IT((EVEN THOUGH 1 THESS SAYS "TEST EVERYTHING, HOLD ONTO THE GOOD.")
IGIT said, “Jesus did not speak of others in this way. Responses such as yours is one reason why believers are looked at negatively.”
Better take another look. Jesus turned over the tables of the moneychangers and called the high priests Whitewashed coffins full of dead men’s bones.
Jesus told the church elders that they were as rebellious and as murderous as their ancestors who killed all of His prophets.
Jesus took a stand against evil. Jesus WAS LOOKED AT in a NEGATIVE way (an understatement) to the extent that the holy men had him killed.
Believers today are much nicer than Jesus. They won’t offend the heretic preachers or the abominators. I’m sure Jesus would be very proud of today’s ‘believers’ since they wouldn’t speak out to offend the Devil, himself.
BOC560
I do believe that BOC560 needs to read Matthew 5:1 and remember that Jesus gave the comandment to Love one another as I have loved you. Jesus did not speak of others in this way. Responses such as yours is one reason why believers are looked at negatively.
I've address multiple ways with various verses about how homosexuality is a sin before God. It does not matter whether you love the other person. It does not matter whether you are enter into a civil ceremony of commitment, even if the government calls it marriage. Before God, homosexual sex is an abominaton - detestable. These are the words of God.
I have done what God wanted me to do.
Ephesians 5:11?Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
1 Corinthians 5:11?But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
it sounds like you are saying that your life experiences are more important than the word of God....
HOW IS OWNING OUR LIFE EXPERIENCES AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD. GOD CREATED US. THE TOTALITY OF OUR EXPERIENCES ARE DUE TO HIS CREATION. HOW IS OWNING WHAT I FELT, WHAT I SAW, WHAT I HEARD AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD. ISNT THAT WHAT JOHN IS SAYING IN 1JOHN1which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—
IF YOU SAY THE WORD OF GOD IS REGULATION(DO OR DONT DO) THEN YOU ARENT SAYING THE WORD OF GOD IS THE LAW. SOMETHING THAT PAUL SAYS WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER.
HOW IS ACKNOWLEDGING WHAT ANOTHER BROTHER IS OWNING AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD.
So the spirit of homosexuality - that of selfishness and self-love and self-gratification - goes directly against the Spirit of God, against the spirit of love. For if you loved God, you would obey Him.
SO FINALLY, YOU HAVE GIVEN ME PART OF AN ANSWER. HOMOSEXUALS DO EVERYTHING HETEROSEXUALS DO.............BOND THRU MUTUAL LOVE, RESPECT, ATTRACTION, AND TRUST.
HOW CAN LOVE BE AGAINST LOVE . YOU SAY THAT IS EROS LOVE . BUT HETEROSEXUALS DO THE SAME THING AND ARENT CONDEMNED FOR IT
THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS LOVE, JOY PEACE,KINDNESS, PATIENCE, SELF-CONTROLLING, FAITHFULNESS,GENTLENESS, AND GOODNESS.
ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE FRUIT OF HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS IS ANY LESS THAN THE FRUIT HETEROSEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS.
KNOWING CHRIST SAID BY THEIR FRUIT YOU WILL KNOW THEM? FRUIT BEING FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.
HAVE YOU EVER WATCHED MAURY OR SPRINGER?
As John said in 1 Jn 3:10, “I have explained many times how homosexual sex is sin in God's eyes. you just dont want to accept the truth of the matter.”
1JOHN 3:10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
THAT WOULD BE WALK IN LOVE. HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY COME AGAINST WALKING IN LOVE?
I have explained many times how homosexual sex is sin in God's eyes. you just dont want to accept the truth of the matter.
YOU HAVE EXPLAINED NOTHING. LIKE I SAID ACCUSING A BROTHER IN CHRIST OF LYING IN HIS TESTIMONY, WITHOUT WITNESS, TO SUPPORT YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE LAW, NOT ONLY COMES AGAINST CHRIST, BUT FELLOWSHIP AS WELL.
God said homosexual sex is wrong in Lev 18. He repeated this in Romans 1 (that would be where he called it degrading, impurity, dishonoring, unnatural, indecent) and 1 Corinthians 6. Plus God spoke out about immoral sex all over the place in the Old and New Testaments
THE LAWS OF LEV WERE PROHIBITIONS TO MAKE A SEPERATE PEOPLE, MANY OF THEMSELVES ARE NOT SINS.
IN THAT LEVITICAL PERIOD OF HISTORY, AND UP TO, AND PAST THE TIME OF CHRIST, THERE WAS NO POSSIBLILTY FOR HOMOSEXUALITY TO EXIST, AS WE KNOW IT TODAY. AT THAT TIME JEWISH MALES ONLY SEXUALLY BONDED WITH WHAT WAS THEIR PROPERTY. AMONG THE JEWS ONE JEWISH MAN COULD NEVER BE ANOTHER JEWISH MAN'S PROPERTY AND SLAVERY OF ONE JEW BY ANOTHER WAS FORBIDDEN, AS WELL AS INTERMARRIAGE WITH OTHER CULTURES.
EVEN IN ROME, CULTURELY MAN ONLY SEXUALLY BONDED WITH WHAT WAS HIS PROPERTY. I KNOW OF NO ROMAN LAW OF MAN BECOMING THE PROPERTY OF ANOTHER, EXCEPT AS A SLAVE OR INDENTURED SERVANT. AND OF COURSE FEW IF ANY WOMEN OWNED PROPERTY. SO OBVIOUSLY THERE IS NOTHING RELATIONAL ABOUT SAME SEX RELATIONS. CULTURALLY, THE ABANDOMENT ISSUE IS MORE GRIEVOUS THAN THE SEX ITSELF. IT ACCENTUATES THE EXTREME BEHAVIOR OF SHAMEBASED LUST.
SO IF THE BEHAVIOR IN ROMANS IS NOT RELATIONAL HOW CAN THAT BE CONNECTED TO HOMOSEXUALITY OF THIS DAY, ..........WHICH IS.
ON THE LUST SIDE, THE SHAME BASED LUSTS THAT CAUSED MEN AND WOMEN TO ABANDON THEIR GIVEN RELATIONSHIPS FOR THE SAME GENDER SEX (MOTIVATION OF THAT NATURE IS GIVEN TO LUST AND IS IN CAPABLE OF COMMITMENT TO A PERSON)OUT OF OBSESSION FOR SEX OR SEXUAL PLEASURE, HAS NO CONNECTION TO HOMOSEXUAL COUPLES WHO BOND OUT OF MUTUAL LOVE, RESPECT,ATTRACTION, AND TRUST. AGAIN WHAT IS THE CONNECTION BETWEEN HETEROSEXUAL ORGIES AND HETEROSEXUAL BONDING?
1COR AND ITIM THE TRANSLATION BEFORE TRANSPOSING AN 1800TH CENTURY WORD INTO AN 1800 YEAR OLD TEXT WAS.."DEFILING ONESELF WITH MANKIND"........COULD IT BE ANY MORE NON SPECIFIC?
(CONTINUED)
Romans 3:20 says we are not found righteous by the Law, but it teaches us what sin is.
Romans 6:23 says we earn death with our sin.
ALREADY ANSWERED ..................AGAIN, WHAT IS THE SIN.
The Old Testament give many concrete examples of spiritual truths that are explicity defined in the New Testament. The basic of which is that God comes first in your life, then others.
By putting your desires above God's you are putting yourself, a created creature, in the place of God in your life.
By refusing to accept what God has said about homosexual sex being a sin, you are refusing to honor God.
By ignoring His word, you are being ungodly, and suppressing the truth.
By saying that your thoughts on the subject are more important that God's thoughts on it, you are exchanging the truth of God for your own thoughts.
If you want to sin and ignore God, you are certainly free to do so. God will eventually give you more and more of it, until you reap what you sow.
When anything takes the place of God in your life (whether its a TV, a job, a person, yourself, your desires, your fears, money, fame, a carved idol, etc), then you are sinning. If you continue to do so, you are hardening your heart. God will eventually give you over to that sin - He will eventually harden your heart. Your sin will eventually move from a personal hidden thing to a public thing to a thing where you approve of others doing your sin. And your sin will cause you to do other unrighteous things.
THAT is the meaning of Romans 1:19-32.
Now, this goes against what Christ said were the two greatest commands because if you truly loved God OR yourself, you love God with all your strength, mind, and spirit. You would be obedient to GOD rather than thinking your thoughts and feelings should take precedence over what God has said.
But instead, you choose to argue and justify rather than
YOU ARE UNDER THE MISCONCEPTION THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS THE ONLY UNDERSTANDING. ESP. WHEN SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT WE SEE IN PART, A POOOR REFLECTION. YOU USE YOUR BELIEF, THAT YOU KNOW THE MIND OF GOD TO BACK YOUR COMMENTS. EVEN THOUGH PAUL SAYS WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW AND AND THAT WE SERVE THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THEOLD WAY TO THE WRITTEN CODE, YOU KEEP TRYING TO PUT YOUR HOMOSEXUAL BROTHERS IN CHRIST UNDER IT.
SCRIPTURE SAYS IN 1 THESS TEST EVERYTHING,KEEP THE GOOD. THE MOST IMPORTANT TEST IS A 1JOHN1 WITNESS IN THE FELLOWSHIP IN CHRIST....."THAT which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched"
WITHOUT THAT................................,ALL YOU HAVE IS AN UNSUBSTANIATED BELIEF.
JOHN'S TEST WASNT REPETITIVE QUOTING OF SCRIPTURE AFTER SCRIPTURE TO SUBSTANTIATE A MEANINGLESS DIATRIBE. HE GAVE A GOSPEL WHERE QUESTIONS WERE ASKED AND ANSWERED.SOMETHING YOU ARE EITHER INCAPABLE OR ARE UNWILLING TO DO.
But if you don't obey, then you don't love Him. You are breaking the greatest commandment.
This will eventually lead to eternal death.
OBEDIENCE IS NOT THE GREATEST COMMANDMENTS, THE THREE COMMANDMENTS OF LOVE ARE THE GREATEST. AS I SAID BEFORE OBEDIENCE IS NOTHING WITHOUT LOVE. LIKE JESUS SAID IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL OBEY MY COMMANDMENTS. WITH LOVE, OBEDIENCE COMES AUTOMATIC.
OBEDIENCE IS ALSO WORKS. WHICH MEANS WE RECEIVE NEITHER RIGHTEOUSNESS OR SALVATION THRU OBEDIENCE. INSTEAD WE RECEIVE BOTH OF THEM THRU FAITH. AND EVEN AMONG FAITH, HOPE, AND LOVE, LOVE IS THE GREATEST.
EPHESIANS 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
1 Corinthians 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
1 Corinthians 13:12-13 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 13 (Whole Chapter)
Colossians 1:5
the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel
Colossians 1:4-6 (in Context) Colossians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Thessalonians 1:3
We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:2-4 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Thessalonians 5:8
But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
1 Thessalonians 5:7-9 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 5 (Whole
DID YOU KNOW THAT OBEDIENCE IS IN SCRIPTURE ONLY 21 TIMES, WHILE LOVE IS IN SCRIPTURE 697 TIMES
(CONTINUED)
Paul wrote in Romans 6:12-16
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
IF BELIEVERS ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO PUT HOMOSEXUAL BELIEVERS UNDER IT?.
So will you be a slave to your desires or a slave to obedience to Christ? if you say you love Christ, then you must obey.
As John said in 1 Jn 3:10, “I have explained many times how homosexual sex is sin in God's eyes. you just dont want to accept the truth of the matter.”
IM AM A SLAVE TO CHRIST THRU MY LOVE FOR HIM, AND MY RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND MY SALVATION WILL BE DETERMINED BY MY FAITH.
WE OBEY, THAT WHICH WE LOVE.
“THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE NO SPIRIT ANSWER ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY, BUT CLING TO REGULATION WHICH WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER, MAKES ME BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE EITHER UNAWARE OF HOW IT COMES AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, OR POSSIBLY DON'T BELIEVE IT DOES AT ALL.”
1 Timothy 4:1
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Galatians 5:19-23
19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
1 Thessalonians 4:7-9
7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 John 1:5-6
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
You choose to live a sinful life. You choose to ignore the word of God. You choose to put your own desires above God's. You choose to live in darkenss. You choose to harden your heart against what God has said. You choose to exchange the truth of God for the lie that your feelings or experiences are more important than God and his word.
Your selfish desire to sin with a man goes against what Christ said was the greatest command because if you truly loved God would be obedient to GOD rather than thinking your thoughts and feelings should take precedence over what God has said.
So the spirit of homosexuality - that of selfishness and self-love and self-gratification - goes directly against the Spirit of God, against the spirit of love. For if you loved God, you would obey Him.
That self-seeking attitude and behavior will take many homosexuals to hell. I wish it did not have to be that way. You are important to God. He loves you. But He hates your sin.
“I DO WHAT I DO, NOT BECAUSE OF THE LAW, BUT BECAUSE I AM YOKED TO CHRIST. IF I LIVE BY REGULATION I AM IM NOT IN CHRIST. IF I AM IN CHRIST, I LIVE BEYOND REGULATION. YET NOT OF MYSELF BUT ONLY THRU THE GRACE OF HIS SPIRIT. THE LAW IS IMPERFECT AND FOR CONSCIOUS, IN THAT CONSCIOUS POINTS TO THE SPIRIT.”
Ephesians 4:20-24
20You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Romans 13:13-14
13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
“NOT BEING A CHRISTIAN WE KNOW SIN, APART FROM THE LAW WE KNOW SIN, AND IN CHRIST KNOW SIN.“
Titus 2:11-13
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
"AS JOHN SAID WE ARE COMMANDED TO WALK IN LOVE."
1 John 5:1-3
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome
You are not walking in love if you are ignoring God's commands.
"FELLOWSHIP IS A LOT OF THINGS.....................BUT CERTAINLY IT IS HONORING THE LIFE EXPERIENCES OF ANOTHER...... WHAT WAS SEEN. WHAT WAS FELT ETC"
it sounds like you are saying that your life experiences are more important than the word of God....
"THAT IS WHY I CONTINUE TO ASK YOU HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY COME AGAINST THE THREE."
You've confused Law with love. Or you don't know the meaning of love.
Jesus said in John 14:15
If you love me, you will obey what I command.
Romans 3:20 (Contemporary English Version)
20God doesn't accept people simply because they obey the Law. No, indeed! All the Law does is to point out our sin.
Jesus said in John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.
That's not Law. God said if you love him, you will obey him. If you dont obey him, you dont love him. Obedience is not law.
"THERE ARE THREE COMMANDMENTS. EACH IS ABOUT LOVE. IF YOU DO THOSE THREE YOU ARE OF CHRIST."
Please refresh my memory on what these three are, when I can find them in the Bible?
"THAT IS WHY I CONTINUE TO ASK YOU HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY COME AGAINST THE THREE."
I've done this multiple time, with scripture. Just because you don’t like the answer does not make the answer wrong.
"WE DIED TO THE LAW AND WERE RESSURRECTED IN CHRIST. WHAT WE DO IN CHRIST THERE IS NO LAW FOR."
Romans 6:11-14
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Romans 8:12-14
12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God
(CONTINUED)
I DO WHAT I DO, NOT BECAUSE OF THE LAW, BUT BECAUSE I AM YOKED TO CHRIST. IF I LIVE BY REGULATION I AM IM NOT IN CHRIST. IF I AM IN CHRIST, I LIVE BEYOND REGULATION. YET NOT OF MYSELF BUT ONLY THRU THE GRACE OF HIS SPIRIT. THE LAW IS IMPERFECT AND FOR CONSCIOUS, IN THAT CONSCIOUS POINTS TO THE SPIRIT.
WE CANNOT GET AWAY FROM THE SPIRIT ISSUE. EVERYTHING WE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY THE SPIRIT HAS TOLD US.. OF WHAT SPIRIT OF ITS ESSENCE IS, AND HOW IF IT DOES COME AGAINST THE THREE COMMANDMENTS (OUR BATTLE BEING AGAINST POWERS AND PRINCIPALITIES)
IN ROMANS 1 IT SAYS THAT FROM THE BEGINNING GOD HAS SHOWN HIS QUALITIES THRU WHAT HAS BEEN CREATED. SO MAN IS WITHOUT EXCUSE NOT ONLY TO ACKNOWLEDGE GOD'S EXISTENCE, BUT TO COMMIT SIN AS WELL
BECAUSE THEIR WAS NO EXCUSE,GOD WAS JUSTIFIED IN COMMITTING GENECIDE AGAINST THE PEOPLE LIVING ON THE LAND OF ISREAL, AS WELL AS AGAINST THE PEOPLE AT THE TIME OF NOAH. BOTH OF THESE PEOPLE WERE WITHOUT THE LAW. YET GOD KILLED THEM BECAUSE THEY SINNED.
NOT BEING A CHRISTIAN WE KNOW SIN, APART FROM THE LAW WE KNOW SIN, AND IN CHRIST KNOW SIN.
THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE NO SPIRIT ANSWER ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY, BUT CLING TO REGULATION WHICH WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER, MAKES ME BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE EITHER UNAWARE OF HOW IT COMES AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, OR POSSIBLY DON'T BELIEVE IT DOES AT ALL.
"John taught the same: 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
AS JOHN SAID WE ARE COMMANDED TO WALK IN LOVE.
It is not about being justified by the Law. Its about being who God wants you to be. Its about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him.
But if you don't obey, then you don't love Him. You are breaking the greatest commandment.
This will eventually lead to eternal death.
OKAY SO FIRST YOU WALK IN LOVE..........................AND
"IF YOU WALK IN THE LIGHT AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT YOU HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER".
AND FELLOWSHIP IS A LOT OF THINGS.....................BUT CERTAINLY IT IS HONORING THE LIFE EXPERIENCES OF ANOTHER...... WHAT WAS SEEN. WHAT WAS FELT ETC
John taught the same: 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
It is not about being justified by the Law. Its about being who God wants you to be. Its about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him.
THERE ARE THREE COMMANDMENTS. EACH IS ABOUT LOVE. IF YOU DO THOSE THREE YOU ARE OF CHRIST.
THAT IS WHY I CONTINUE TO ASK YOU HOW DOES HOMOSEXUALITY COME AGAINST THE THREE.
YOU KEEP USING YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE LAW TO BE THE PARADIGN OF OBEDIENCE. WE DIED TO THE LAW AND WERE RESSURRECTED IN CHRIST. WHAT WE DO IN CHRIST THERE IS NO LAW FOR.
hmm.. the last line in my previous post somehow did not have what I intended ot put in there. Obviously 1 Jn 3:10 says,
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Christ is only the savior for those who trust in His saving work -- and if He is, then they will obey Him, If they do not obey, then that is evidence that He is not their savior.
Hebrews 5:9,
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
John taught the same: 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
It is not about being justified by the Law. Its about being who God wants you to be. Its about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him.
But if you don't obey, then you don't love Him. You are breaking the greatest commandment.
This will eventually lead to eternal death.
Paul wrote in Romans 6:12-16
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
So will you be a slave to your desires or a slave to obedience to Christ? if you say you love Christ, then you must obey.
As John said in 1 Jn 3:10, “I have explained many times how homosexual sex is sin in God's eyes. you just dont want to accept the truth of the matter.”
I have explained many times how homosexual sex is sin in God's eyes. you just dont want to accept the truth of the matter.
God said homosexual sex is wrong in Lev 18. He repeated this in Romans 1 (that would be where he called it degrading, impurity, dishonoring, unnatural, indecent) and 1 Corinthians 6. Plus God spoke out about immoral sex all over the place in the Old and New Testaments.
Romans 3:20 says we are not found righteous by the Law, but it teaches us what sin is.
Romans 6:23 says we earn death with our sin.
The Old Testament give many concrete examples of spiritual truths that are explicity defined in the New Testament. The basic of which is that God comes first in your life, then others.
By putting your desires above God's you are putting yourself, a created creature, in the place of God in your life.
By refusing to accept what God has said about homosexual sex being a sin, you are refusing to honor God.
By ignoring His word, you are being ungodly, and suppressing the truth.
By saying that your thoughts on the subject are more important that God's thoughts on it, you are exchanging the truth of God for your own thoughts.
If you want to sin and ignore God, you are certainly free to do so. God will eventually give you more and more of it, until you reap what you sow.
When anything takes the place of God in your life (whether its a TV, a job, a person, yourself, your desires, your fears, money, fame, a carved idol, etc), then you are sinning. If you continue to do so, you are hardening your heart. God will eventually give you over to that sin - He will eventually harden your heart. Your sin will eventually move from a personal hidden thing to a public thing to a thing where you approve of others doing your sin. And your sin will cause you to do other unrighteous things.
THAT is the meaning of Romans 1:19-32.
Now, this goes against what Christ said were the two greatest commands because if you truly loved God OR yourself, you love God with all your strength, mind, and spirit. You would be obedient to GOD rather than thinking your thoughts and feelings should take precedence over what God has said.
But instead, you choose to argue and justify rather than Love and Obey.
paul says the law is for conscious? was your conscious aroused the last ime you have sex with a woman who was menustrating? what was the essence of sin that was brought to mind?
how you differentiate in lev, in the covenant we now have in christ, what was prohibition and what now continues to be sin.
heb 8:7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[b]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
you still have explained how romans 1:24-27 is about homosexuality. is there a connection between heterosexual orgies and heterosexual human bonding?
you say its a sin, but you refuse to explain why its a sin, how its a sin, or explain the spirit of its essence that would make it come against loving your neighbor as your self and against christ.?
repeat
you say its a sin, but you refuse to explain why its a sin, how its a sin, or explain the spirit of its essence that would make it come against loving your neighbor as your self and against christ.?
you say its a sin, but you refuse to explain why its a sin, how its a sin, or explain the spirit of its essence that would make it come against loving your neighbor as your self and against christ.?
you say its a sin, but you refuse to explain why its a sin, how its a sin, or explain the spirit of its essence that would make it come against loving your neighbor as your self and against christ.?
Note that in Romans 3:20, God said we learn what sin is because of the Law. If you recall, Leviticus 18 defines sexual acts God considers sin. So, since that is part of the Law, and the Law teaches us what sin is, then yes, God still considers those things to be sin.
Romans 3:20
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Also, if we have accepted Christ as Savior, then we have to stop sinning, because we know sin leads to death, while obedience leads to righteousness.
Romans 6:11-16
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord
Romans 8:13
13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live
You must choose to e a slave to sin or a slave to obedience – if you live a sinful life then you will die, but if you stop living a sinful life (with the help of God), then you will live.
"And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day.
And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36)
If the Lord would sentence a man to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, do you think He would hesitate for another vile, wicked act?
BOC560
isnt that what we are talking about practicing homosexuals. isnt that the definition of homosexuality versus heterosexuality attraction to bond sexually with the same sex as opposed to the opposite sex.
it would seem that you are using a technicality to avoid responding to my points.
You are missing the entire point, probably purposefully.
Scripture said homosexual sex is sin.
Scripture said to have eternal life you must have faith in the redeeming work of Christ - his suffering death and resurrection.
Scripture said that if you have faith, you will have a life that leaves sin behind and not live a lifestyle of sin.
Scripture said if you continue to live in a lifestyle of sin, then you are not being honest about loving God.
"God defined homosexual sex as sin in Leviticus 18 and Romans 1.
If you live a lifestyle of doing what God said not to do, then you are not obeying God's commands"
i have already explained why romans 1 isnt about homosexuality? and you have not explained how it is. denegating a brother in christ's testimony(shares the same inheritance) without witness, is against christ and does not explain how it is about homosexuality.
the incestial rape of 2samuel doesn"t condemn heterosexuaity. likewise, the sins commited in romans 1 does not condemn homosexuality.
NOT ALL THE PROHIBITIONS OF LEV OF THEMSELVES ARE SINS, such as household chores on the sabbath.
num 15: 32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
should we stop wearing clothes with mixed fabric?
you say its a sin, but you refuse to explain why its a sin, how its a sin, or explain the spirit of its essence that would make it come against loving your neighbor as your self and against christ.?
john16:12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you
john16:15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
God defined homosexual sex as sin in Leviticus 18 and Romans 1.
If you live a lifestyle of doing what God said not to do, then you are not obeying God's commands.
This is what the apostle John had to to say about people who claim they love God and yet continue to live in sin, in 1 John 2:3-4,
3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
feet, I did address the questions you raised. you chose to ignore them I will not repeat myself.
and as for the purpose of Romans, it is manifold. But one of them is to ensure people dont do the things that GOd calls sin.
Hypocracy is one of the things God does not like.
Romans 2:3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?
But you see, there are some people who trust in what Christ has done and prove it through obedience. This is what Christ said to do. As well as others.
As for living a lifestyle of sin and claiming Christ as Savior, Christ said in Matthew 7:21-23,
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Paul taught the same: Acts 26:20,
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
James taught the same: James 2:14-17,
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Peter taught the same: Acts 5:29,
Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
The author of Hebrew taught the same: Hebrews 5:9,
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
John taught the same: 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Its about love and obedience. If you say you love, but you do not obey, then its not true love, because you love yourself more than God. We must love GOD more than anything and anyone - including ourselves, and we must obey him.
romans 2: 1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
here is an understanding of romans1 that correlates with the answer in romans 2:1 being "yes"
an understanding of romans 1………..THE ESSENCE OF ALL sin
(1) we are aware of god’s invisible qualities thru what he created so we have no excuse to say we do not know of him.
(2) and allthough knowing him ,we do not give thanks in all things. nor glorify him. in fact the less that we do these, the more we credit ourselves with being our own savior.
(3)we are fools in our wisdom and exchange his glory in whom we are created in his image, for images of our own mortality.
(4) because we are given over to these images we are also given over to all kinds of appetites of the desires of our hearts in our attempt to embrace the here and now.
(5)we exchange the truth of god for a lie and serve ourselves and our earthly wisdom……….. even powers and principalities.
(6)we are given over from the natural love of self and brother, neighbor to the unnatural, lusts of every given thing. this provides for our unlimited sense of shame, our own self hatred and low self esteem.
(7)in this state of existence we no longer think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of god.and embrace the license to do every kind of wickedness and evil.
(8) and while doing this, knowing that to do this brings death, we continue to not only do them but also approve of those who do the very same things.
this is why it says in romans 2:1 you who judge do the very same things as those you judge. this is why we all need a savior. THE PURPOSE OF THE MESSAGE OF ROMANS.
"The question is whether one can follow Christ and live a lifestyle of sin."
what is the sin, where is it, what is it that homosexuals are doing that is against god.
homosexuals have not been found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. they are not less a father, neighbor, friend,manager, attorney , teacher, brother, sister. the same would not be said of those, whose lives were intwined with same based lust as described in romans
and homsexual couples provide loving nurturing homes for raising children equal to those provided by married heterosexual couples. and their sexual intimacy enhances that loving environment. tens of thousands of couples have willingly adopted unwanted and abandoned children from heterosexual unions.
did not christ say you will recognize them by their fruit...........fruit being fruit of the spirit.
and that bad tree cannot produce good fruit. if the tree is good how can the orientation of that tree be bad.
here again you continue to chose to be led by the law, completely ignoring the spirit of bonding(mutual,love respectattraction, and trust), the nurturing spirit, and their givenness to perform equal to any heterosexual.
you have not explained romans 1:24-27. you have not addressed my points. apparently you do not understand it yourself. here are the points again.
"what was the truth they exchanged for a lie and how were they worshipping the created that they should have given over to homosexuality.
many homosexuals were raised in the church and came to know christ, long before they are ever aware of their orientation.
if the lie is about the existance of god, is this scripture a description of the pagan cultures that surronded isreal. is this a description of hindus, atheists, and agnostics. because hindus treat homosexuality very severly.
does this explain cases where children show a dispostioon to the orientation in early childhood."
you are saying that those who gave testimony of knowing christ long before they were aware of their orientation, were liars and self deceivers. and you know this how?
The question is whether one can follow Christ and live a lifestyle of sin.
In Acts 26:20, Paul said people "should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance."
Romans 6:16-19
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
We should live like we have left our sin behind - we should become more and more righteous.
We should live we have left our sin behind. We should strive for righteous behavior to match the righteousness faith in Christ has given us - the righteousness of Christ.
I haven't credited myself with anything, but if you dont think the Bible tells us what God thinks about certain behavior, then you are sadly mistaken. you're trying to make this about me, instead of about truth. the truth is, you don't want to accept what the Bible teaches about homosexuality. I'm ok with that. Its your choice to ignore scripture. I'm not affected personally by your choice, other than being saddened for you.
As for what I'm standing on - I stand on the whole word of God and dont try to pick and choose what I will believe.
If you try to ignore all other scripture other than Romans, then I'll give you what Paul said in Romans 1:24-27 "Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
Paul called homosexual attraction and sex shameful, impure, degrading, unnatural, indecent, and perversion.
The same Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:8-11 that homosexuality is contrary to sound teaching:
" 8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted."
We're not under the law, but the law teaches what is immoral. You can argue with God all you want, you're not going to win.
first you credited yourself with knowing the mind of god. then you credited yourself with knowing a man's heart in the giving of his testamony. then you credited yourself with knowing someone's intention in his relationships. all for the purpose of supporting an interpretation of the law, which even if we follow, we receive no salvation.
this is not about homosexuality being a sin. its about a difference of belief of being in christ. one side believing that it is by being led by the law. the other believing that it is thru being led by and serving the spirit.
im standing on romans.........................what are you standing on?
Hmm.. I just realized I did not finish my thought.
I've witnessed many people looking for a sense of being desired. When they get into a relationship, either they then immediately jump out of it (and the stated reasons vary, but it looks like its because they have that person and are its insufficient), or they hang on for dear life, trying to make it work. But there is still unhappiness.
Yet, instead of trying to please God, many homosexuals are trying to justify their desires and actions. This is what God said about that:
Psalm 361:-3 1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes. 2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin. 3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
This is from the mouth of Christ:
Luke 16:15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.”
And there is a difference between knowning about God and knowing God.
Just because someone says something does not make it so, even if they believe it. There are plenty of people who go to church and call Christ Savior and Lord, but when you look at their lives, its evident that they do not love God. To be a Christian involves following Christ - believing in Him and obeying God. As for living a lifestyle of sin and claiming Christ as Savior,
Christ said in Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Jesus said in John 14:23-24,
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John wrote in 1 John 3:7-10,
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
I said self-gratification because God said homosexual sex is not a good thing. To seek what you want over what God wants is self-gratification - regardless of how it feels.
I've witnessed many people looking for a sense of being desired. When they get into a relationship, either they then immediately jump out of it (and the stated reasons vary, but it looks like its because they have that person and are its insufficient).
I had to think about what you were referring to when you said I am taking credit for knowing God's mind, but I think I figured out you were speaking about what was meant by sexual immorality. Jesus was speaking to an audience who knew what God's word said (Pharisees and teachers of the Law). Jesus knew also knew the word of God. And its normal exegetical pratice to find other places in scripture that speak to similar subjects to see if that scripture can shed light on what one is studying. Leviticus 18 describes what God says about sexual immorality - sexual behavior God says are wrong. So its not a stretch to use what God has already said to clarify what God is currently saying.
Well, since verse 17 precedes verse 18
17, For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness
I tend to think the truth they exchanged was the fact that righteousness by comes from God and the righteous will live by faith. They ignored God and His Gospel.
how do you get self gratification out of a committed shared life with another. self gratification is a one night stand, going with a prostitute, cheating on one's wife. its a relationship a person and his cravings, it involves no relationship of committment to another person.
is this something you have personnally witnessed, or are you offering a supposition?
you are crediting yourself with something , not creditted to you by scripture. only the holy spirit knows the mind of god.
romans1 : 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.
what was the truth they exchanged for a lie and how were they worshipping the created that they should have given over to homosexuality.
many homosexuals were raised in the church and came to know christ, long before they are ever aware of their orientation.
if the lie is about the existance of god, is this scripture a description of the pagan cultures that surronded isreal. is this a description of hindus, atheists, and agnostics. because hindus treat homosexuality very severly.
does this explain cases where children show a dispostioon to the orientation in early childhood. will you address this with suppostion or are speaking from personal witness?
how is it of christ to condemn another of sin, merely out of supposition?
feet,
The homosexuals my wife and I ave known have all been seeking to feel desired. God's love is insufficient.
Jesus said in Mark 7:20-23,
20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
Now, sexual immorality would refer to what God had defined as wrong already by the time of when Christ said this – this would come from the Old Testament. This includes homosexual sex.
The word translated as sexual immorality is ‘Porneia’. This word means
1. illicit sexual intercourse
A. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
B. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
C. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11
This is the same Jesus who said God loves the world so much that He sent His Son to suffer and die for us, Jesus said in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
The same Jesus who said we should call sinners on their behavior, in
Luke 17:3, "So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him."
And the same Jesus who said to the woman caught in adultery, in John 8:11b, "Go now and leave your life of sin."
Feet,
It seems to me that the essence of the spirit of homosexuality is a total disgard for the love and word of God in favor of the pursuit of self and self-gratification.
The problem is not a lack of love for self, but a belief that self-gratification should take priority over what God says. This is actually an over-abundance of a desire for love of self - to the exclusion of God's word. I'm not saying homosexuals are more in love with themselves than others, but they exemplify a belief that what *I* want is more important than what God wants.
If there is no obedience to God, then there is no love for God.
There is a problem when what we want takes priority over what God wants.
Paul wrote about not being justified by Law, but taught grace.
Paul says we are to honor others above ourselves:
Romans 12:9-19
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
Evil is what God defines as evil - this includes having sex with animals, famly members other than your spouse (incest), sex with a divorced person, adultery, fornication, and people of the same gender.
Paul also wrote in Romans 1:26b-27, "God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one anothe"
I agree that Christ is able to save us completely. But for that to happen, we have to love and obey God.
1 John 5:2-3
2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome
Jesus said in John 14:15: If you love me, you will obey what I command.
wbmoore; thank you for the compliment. We have certainly entered the era where evil is called good and good is called evil just as scripture predicted. If you haven't been in The Truth Project yet I would highly encourage you to find out where a study is being conducted and sign up for it. It is a wonderful program and discusses these battles of worldviews.
there are two couples. one heterosexual and one homosexual. both bond motivated by mutual love, attraction, respect, and trust fo have committed shared life with each other. one is applauded and one is condemned. why because of an interpretation of the law, which even if we follow it, we receive no salvation.
paul says ifwe are in christ we are led by and serve the spirit. the law ,paul says the law is for conscious.
if we say that something is a sin because because of our understanding of the law, we are led by the law. but if we say something is a sin because this is of this spirit and this spirit comes against loving ones neighbor as oneself( the summation of the law) and the spirit of christ we are led by the spirit.
again, what is the spirit of the essence of homosexuality that would make it come against loving ones neighbor as oneself and the spirit of christ?
hebrews 7: 18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
20And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
"The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
'You are a priest forever.' "[b] 22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
there are two couples. one heterosexual and one homosexual. both bond motivated by mutual love, attraction, respect, and trust fo have committed shared life with each other. one is applauded and one is condemned. why because of an interpretation of the law, which even if we follow it, we receive no salvation.
paul says ifwe are in christ we are led by and serve the spirit. the law ,paul says is for conscious.
if we say that something is a sin because because of our understanding of the law, we are led by the law. but if we say something is a sin because this is of this spirit and this spirit comes against loving ones neighbor as oneself( the summation of the law) and the spirit of christ we are led by the spirit.
again what is the spirit of the ssence of homosexuality that would make it come against loving ones neighbor as oneself and rhe spirit of christ?
hebres 7: 18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
20And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
"The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
'You are a priest forever.' "[b] 22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
RBB
i would have to disagree with your comments about love. my understanding is that love is a decision. so one can decide to hate themselves or love themselves. pure logic would say if one hqted themselves they would be more disposed to hating others.
if their was ever a crisis in the world it would be that people weren't loving themselves enough.
people who love themselves are kind, gentle, good to themselves they have peace living in their own skin. the kindness gentleness that they have in their love for themselves spills over in their relationship with others.
if god loves you as much as another then why would your love of self not be as strong as your love for another.
as far as spirit goes if i asked you what was the spirit of the essence of murder.? you would say a total disregard for human life for the sake of another's person's benefit? without question that comes against the fruit of the spirit and loving your neighbor as yourself? if i asked you what was the spirit of the essence of stealing? you would say a total disregard for another's property for purpose of another's benefit. the fruit of this spirit is unkindness, indifference(lack of love)among a number of other destructive frruits.
so if homosexuality is a sin, why the difficulty in denoting the spirit of its essence that comes against christ and the second commandment.
HAWK49,
I really liked what you said. The problem with some people who try to justify sinfulness is that they dont want to admit the sinfulness of it.
Psalm 361:-3 1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes. 2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin. 3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
This is from the mouth of Christ:
Luke 16:15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.”
So often we want to embrace our sin and justify ourselves instead of embrace truth and recognize and reject our sin.
jesus would not stone that homosexual but do not forget that he sent that woman found in adultry away with the word "go and sin no more" - jesus called sin, sin. he also said he did not haver to stand and judge but that the word would judge us. the problem with most cultural christians is that they too change their doctrine as culture changes and accepts today what it did not accept yesterday. christians that have become relative moralist decide for themselves what is wrong and right depending on their feelings concerning each individual situation. the Word of God as the standard is set aside and mankind now determines for himself what is good and what is evil and that depends on what is pleasant and what is unpleasant to the mind and flesh. that is why we are even discussing an issue that is cut and dry although the world and many christians hate the idea that an absolute exist. what would jesus do- the Word! bobby
The topic is whether or not Jesus would stone a homosexual. According to the New Testament the obvious answer is 'no', He would admonish the homosexual to sin no more if in fact the homosexual was carrying out his sexual desires. There are wonderful and successful Christian ministries that are helping homosexuals to exit out of their sinful lifestyle due to the loving nature of Christianity. One issue that is never brought up in the public square is the fact that there are in excess of 17,000 homosexual related deaths each year due to homosexual related diseases. This exceeds the annual rate of homocides in the US. Where is the compassion of those encouraging homosexual lifestyles that lead to a high probability of disease and death?
As for a spirit of homosexuality, I dont think its a good thing to be influenced by such a thing. We must strive for righteous living, and God is clear about homosexual sex being a sin.
Now, please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying a person who is tempted toward a certain sin is any better or any worse than someone who is tempted toward a different sin. In God's eyes, all sin is horrible and He hates sin, but He loves us all enough to have sent His Son Jesus to take on human form to suffer and die for our sins, and be resurrected to show His power over death and His deity. If we accept what God has done, then we need only believe - but if we believe, then we must obey.
Christ said in Matthew 22:36-40,
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
And then Scripture defines Love for God, - to obey God: 1 John 5:2-3
2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome
Given what scripture says about homosexual sin being against what God wants, then how can one say one loves God and still continue to knowingly live a life of sin...?
And we as Christians are called to love our brothers and sinsters, but that does not mean condone sin. And just because we do not condone a given sin does not mean we are afraid of it or full of hate - those are attempts to deflect the truth and avoid the true issue: obedience to God.
feetxxxl,
Given what the Bible says about imorral sex, please explain how homosexuali sex is not a sin?
I am referring to the following:
sex with animals: Ex 22:19; Lev18:23, 20:15-16
sex with people of the same gender: Lev 18:22; Lev 20:13; Rom 1:26-32; 1 Cor 6:9-10
adultery: Gen 20:1-7; Deut 5:18; Heb 13:4
fornication: 1 Corinthians 6:18; 1 Corinthians 7:2
incest: Lev 18:6-15; 20; Deut 27:20-23; 1 Cor 5:1-13
Note that the above verses are from both the New Testament and the Old Testament.
I call your attention to verses written by the man who said to not try to be justified by the Law.
Even though he was all about teaching grace, Paul also taught the need for righteous living.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
and especially
Romans 1:25-32 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Given the above scripture, how can one defend homosexual sex as not being against God's teaching?
RBB--
I have had dealings with feet before. He may be mislead about a lot of things, but don't discount his comment of th spirit of homosexuality. The spiritual world is as real, or even more real, the the physical world. Satan is real. He is not omnipresent, though. I truly believe that he has placed spirits and demons in particular positions with specific duties. I beleive, for example, that there is are spirits of alchoholism. Their only purpose is to search out those who are weak in that area and use their talents to destroy them. It's all they do, and they are experts at it. Satan is evil, but he is in no way stupid. He is a very intelligent and crafty being. After all, he did get a third of God's angels to revolt against Him. If he can get angels, who dwelt int the very presence fo God, to do such things, how much easier is it to get a human to fall. And I believe that each person is assigned an evil spirit/demon by him. Even Christians are. They don't possess us (except in some cases of non-believers), but they monitor our every move and coordinate with other spirits to make life as miserable as possible. They cannot read our minds, but they can introduce thoughts into our heads and see how we react. I know it sounds like some kind of military endeavour, and you would be right. We are at war spiritually. The Bible speaks over and over regarding this. I've always believed this, and when I read the books "Piercing the Darkness" and "This Present Darkness" by Frank Peretti, it confirmed it. Those books are fictional books, but I believe with all my heart that they are an accurate account of what goes on in the spiritual world on a daily basis.
And on the other side of the coin, the Bible also talks about the lusts of the flesh. We are all born into sin, and have a sinful nature. Our flesh wants to do what what is contrary to God's will. Paul speaks many times about the warfare between the Spirit and the flesh. But that doens't discount demons and evil spirits.
www.isaiahscry.blogspot.com
Eph 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Eph 5:3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.
Eph 5:4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
Eph 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Therefore do not associate with them;
Eph 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
Eph 5:9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true),
Eph 5:10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.
Eph 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
Eph 5:12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.
Eph 5:13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible,
Eph 5:14 for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
Eph 5:15 Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise,
Eph 5:16 making the best use of the time, because the days are evil.
A true Believer Will be at war with Sin 2Co 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
There are alot of deceivers On this site
feetxxxl - Firstly, the idea I have concerning your mistaken belief that the scripture commands that we "love ourselves", comes from reading the Bible. Nowhere does it say we are to love ourselves. It says we are to love others (our neighbor) as we already love ourselves. It isn't telling you to love yourself. It is assuming that the person listening has a certain amount of self love. It's meant to convey that in the same way that most normal human beings would have a certain amount of self interest, that we should put that same amount of care and interest in taking care of our neighbor. I think you should consider speaking to a pastor about this interpretation you have concerning this passage. It is completely contrary to the not only the meaning of the passage, but incompatible with the teaching of the Bible in general.
As to the "spirit of the essence of homosexuality", what on earth are you talking about? Do you actually think there is a spirit that oversees homosexual thought. I ask since you are referring to it in the same way as you seem to be referring to the Holy Spirit (as in Fruit of the Spirit).
Lastly we are to obey what the Bible says. The division of the law and the covenant of grace, in terms of how we are saved, doesn't mean that we are to simply ignore what God says to do, just because it was in the Law of Moses. We are not to be "of the Law" in terms of believing that, that is how we are saved. That doesn't mean that we are not to do what God says to do in scripture. Again I suggest talking to someone who really understands the scripture, and a more careful reading of the whole Word.
RRB
Iif you are convinced that scripture says homosexuality is a sin. then please answer the following the question.
...................what is the spirit of the essence of homosexuality that would make it come against the fruit of the spirit and love of neighbor and self.(the second commandment)
if your answer is i dont know, but i do know that "the bible says".......................then you are being led by the law. if you say that homosexuality is of this spirit and this spirit comes against love of neighbor and self.................you are being led by the spirit.
i have no idea where you are coming with your self love ideas. hatred of self has been the source of more transgression against human kind than anything i know.
feetxxxl - Where on earth did you get the idea that love of self is a commandment. The "second commandment" is "love your neighbor as yourself". It refers to the natural care that we all feel for our own welfare, and that we are to use the same care we would want for ourselves on others, not that we are to "love ourselves".
You somehow think that love of self and neighbor is the "sum of the law". Where do you think that God fits into that. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. That is the first commandment.
Why also would you think that somehow the Spirit, who is God, would lead anyone to ignore what God's own word says. God is the same Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Spirit would not lead people to sin, be careful what spirit you are listening to, it surely isn't the Holy Spirit if it's telling you that sin is OK.
what is unloving is comparing homosexuality to adultery, or drug addiction. two things that are clearly against the fruit of the spirit and love of self and neighbor (the summation of the law) adultery because it comes against the the fruit of the spirit of faithfulness and addiction because it is commitment to a particular lust and denigates commitment to another individual.
homosexuality is merely having an attraction to the same sex, and its bonding embraces the same motivation as heterosexual bonding. that is mutual love, reaspect, attraction and trust for a shared committed life with another.
sorry to say that those who have refused to test their understanding of the law thru fellowship in christ are being lead by the law.
however, paul says in christ we are lead by and serve the spirit.
it is my opinion that this division of the church is between those who are led by the law versus those who are led by the spirit.
one cannot serve 2 masters he will despise the one, and love the other. likewise ,you cannot serve both the law and the spirit.
for those who want to engage in a spirit test....................what is the spirit of the essence of homosexuality that would make it come against the fruit of the spirit and love of neighbor and self.(the second commandment)
smbga -
Maybe you should start going to church since it's nothing like what you are describing. In the last 10 years I've heard abortion mentioned from the pulpit three times, homosexuality fewer than that. You don't seem to have a very good handle on what the Christian world is about, and you won't until you actually get involved with it. If you did manage to come across a church that is preaching that every week, instead of the scripture, I suggest you visit another (or even several others) until you find church that is preaching simply the Bible, preferably book by book.
As to homosexuals going from church to church to find one that will accept them. All they have to do these days is find the nearest Episcopal church, or many of the other more liberal denominations that are in the process of ignoring scripture, you'll find them everywhere.
What makes you think that Jesus would "get to the root of the problem" and what exactly do you mean by that. Just remember He is God, don't you think he already knows the cause of things?
He would tell the homosexual to repent and sin no more. He would also make plain to the person that if they continued to sin that they would go to hell.
I have no hatred for homosexuals nor do I treat them any differently than any of my other friends or family, but I know what the scripture says and that is not something I'm willing to compromise on, no matter how uncomfortable it makes those who want to continue to practice this sin, or those who are willing to condone it to make others comfortable.
The real question is.... would Jesus condone homosexuality. No. Why would anyone think after what is written in scripture that He would?
Tim Wilkins doesn't get it: "The Church has a responsibility to proclaim that homosexuality is a sin." Churches don't proclaim, people do, and if all people are sinners, it would be best for Wilkins and his ilk to concentrate on redeeming themselves rather than on proclaiming that others are sinful. This is the message of the Barna survey, and the reason that 85% on non-christians (and a majority of christians themselves) find christianity as practiced today hypocritical. It is not for us to judge. It is for us to strive to be better than we are.