To Catch Fish, Learn to Think Like Them

WiccanTexan »

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Yes, it would be nice to have more Christians tend to each other on a personal level, rather than preaching a "common enemy to unite against," but keeping personally emotionally detached from their immediate community. I think any large faith group has some problems along those lines.

GoldenEagle »

Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:45 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Wow, I don't think I could stand that for very long, either.I use to be very legalistic myself, so my hope is that she will come out of that like I did.I can't stand legalism now because I saw how hateful I was.It is the opposite of Jesus.Anyway, I will pray about that whole situation.Thanks for your time.You have helped me see that there is a need for us as Christians to reach out to the wounded.I hope it starts with me!!

WiccanTexan »

Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Thank you, GE. If you could add to that, a swift end to his bitter, ongoing divorce (court date is in November). One of the issues is that she's become one of those fire/brimstone fundamentalists and they can no longer live under the same roof. He's tired of being told what constitutes a "good Christian."

GoldenEagle »

Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Well said.I couldn't agree more.Thanks for the discussion.I am already praying for your brother-in-law.You can be assured that he is not alone.There are others who love God, but are disillusioned with the state of the church in America today.

WiccanTexan »

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:30 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Thanks, GE. I'm glad to see a Christian understand that there are flaws in the system, so to speak, as to how Christianity is being presented in some arenas. It's really a fine faith when the spirituality is not tainted by the almighty $$.

prodriver »

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

What can I say? Amen!

GoldenEagle »

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

He needs to be built up, not torn down.What a concept!! Encourage one another is what the writer of Hebrews said for believers to do(Hebrews 3:13).Thanks again for reminding me of this important truth.

WiccanTexan »

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Quite frankly, GE, he's getting tired of being "preached down to." The pastors all seem to focus on what's wrong with everyone, in between the many reminders that the collection plate is not filling up to expections. What he'd really like is a place where there's less emphasis on $$ and sin, and more emphasis on Jesus' teachings and hope.

GoldenEagle »

Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

WT, tell your brother-in-law he is in my prayers.I can certainly identify with where he is coming from and I guess that's why I have a heart for people who have been hurt by the church.It has taken me several years to get back to where I am going to services on a regular basis.The last thing he needs is someone preaching to him about not going to church enough.It won't work for him any more than it would have for me.My hope is that he finds refuge in the Lord, and if God uses Joel Osteen to help him through this, then that is great.Thanks for sharing that!!!

WiccanTexan »

Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:19 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

GoldenEagle: "I went through two church splits within a ten year period.I can certainly see how a person can get fed up with church politics:

That's a problem my BIL (brother-in-law) is having right now. He's a committed Christian, but getting very disillusioned with church politics. Currently, he doesn't belong to a church, but listens to Joel Osteen.

GoldenEagle »

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I went through two church splits within a ten year period.I can certainly see how a person can get fed up with church politics.Good dialogue by all of you.Thanks!!

WiccanTexan »

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

prodriver: "Yes, it is always sad when people leave churches they belonged to, because they don´t feel "comfortable" as they used to. Its the same with our church. But this is why there´s a variety of churches around. Things, times and people change."

In my case, it wasn't just one particular church that I left. I had issues with the entire "earthly church."

WiccanTexan »

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

RBB: "I wouldn't mind at all if you left a comment on my profile....you can do that? I'm still trying to navigate the new site. I'm not very good with technology :) My son will tell you I'm a tecnoweenie."

Done! Bnet has always been a bit squirrely on navigation. Let me know if you have trouble finding anything.

prodriver »

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Yes, it is always sad when people leave churches they belonged to, because they don´t feel "comfortable" as they used to. Its the same with our church. But this is why there´s a variety of churches around. Things, times and people change.
The way I see it there are only three things that need to be respcted when "designing" services.
A) God, for it´s through and for him what we do
B) People that are already attending the church, they need to be involved when changing things and methods as far as possible
C) the times we live in, this brings attention to where the church is heading, it should never stand still, but live in a permanent act of change, for this preserves argues of how we do things most of the time.

If people are used to changes and improvement and especially are integrated in this permament process, they feel much more comfortable with the whole process. This was neglected in many many churches and this is part of why Rick is so right with his book, in my eyes.
People are too settled to old things, fell aslepp with their eyes closed to their own dayly living and the lives of the unsaved. His book opend my eyes to my own part of the church, what do I expect, what do I invest, why do I go there, why don´t I invited all and all of my friends, what is Gods plan?
Especially the "friends" question showed me, that I accepted and supported things on Sundays, that I reject on mondays. Starting with music........
And by the way, no church is perfect, not Saddleback, not yours and especially not the one I attend :o)

RBB »

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

prodriver - Your church sounds wonderful. I wish I could visit. Your concentration on the Bible and checking everything you do against what God says is wonderful.

I personally love both the old hymns and contemporary worship music. It would be my wish to see churches that want to bring in the contemporary, also retain the old hymns for those to who they give comfort. There is a need to take into consideration the spiritual welfare of those who already attend a church along with wanting to bring others to Christ.

I belonged to church that went seeker sensitive. I was not the leader, but I did love that church. It's lost many, many members in the last few years because of the problems that switching over caused.

I agree that small groups are good, no matter what size church you go to, or if you are seeker sensitive or not. It helps people get to know other members in a way they can't with a larger group. They can really be there for each other and bear each others burdens.

prodriver »

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

RBB so its more likely to be myth, I will not check this quote of yours, because I don´t think there´s a need to, but do you think that there´s no truth in using modern day things in modern day churches? Do you think that Jesus would say use the old ones, they are more of God will then these you use today.
I think we have a God that is timeless, he shares what we offer, like accepts praise and worship, even if the organ is not in use any more.
BUT you are defenetly right in saying that the scripture needs to be untouched, in the meaning of not watered down. Truth is in Church History that breaking traditions never only found a warm welcome.
If I understood you right, you are a leader of a traditional church and lost members to the "seeker sensitiv". Same is to our church. But we thought over what we are doing and why we do things we do. We ask ourselves what God wants us to do to reach people, no matter if tehy attend our church or leaving to another. We decided to present the living God as a living God, a timeless God. We do have powerpoint songs, but we also keep the good old books - not only for the older generation, also for the younger. We decided to find a suitable way for US to have a certain mix and we bring every change to God before doing.
We lost one thing: fear. The fear of doing something wrong. We are a scripture based church and nothing rules us besides Gods word, for it doesn´t change, but times change and we have to correspond to that, up to a certain level. We are german but we also sing english songs, with a german translation - this small thing was hard to understand for some, but for this example our youth showed us, that there is God working power in changes and understanding how fish think.
I pray that God opens our eyes for changes that need to be done and for history that needs to be kept alive. And I pray for Rick and any other church leader in this world, that God may help you with the wisdom and care it takes to lead a church, no matter how bis it is. for if there are 2 or 3 God is with you.
We found that many members of our church just attended because of habbits. Ricks suggestion on small groups for example made us think over and improve "habbits". Our aim is to have a church of burning believers of these days, fighting and giving all it takes for the one that works through us untill that day. We don´t count attendents any more, we listen to stories of people being saved by God and then being changed to lite some others. If then they bring their drums and E-Guitars, I will fall on my knees and thank God.
That day we will know indeed what is wrong or right.

RBB »

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:04 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

prodriver - I've heard this about Luther before to justify using popular music in church. Here is what I found on : http://www.av1611.org/question/cqluther.html

"Of the melodies to Luther’s 37 chorales, 15 were composed by Luther himself, 13 came from Latin hymns of Latin service music, 4 were derived from German religious folk songs, 2 had originally been religious pilgrims’ songs, 2 are of unknown origin, and one came directly from a secular folk song." (Data compiled from Squire, pp. 446-447; Leupold, ed., Liturgy and Hymns; and Strodach, ed., Works of Martin Luther, VI)
NOTE: The one secular song was from a popular pre-Reformation (not a drinking tune!) secular song, "I Arrived from an Alien Country," and was used as the melody for the Christmas hymn, "From Heaven on High I Come to You", the first stanza Luther patterned after the folk song.
(source: Robert D. Harrell, Martin Luther, His Music, His Message, p. 18)

The article also says that later, not liking the connection, Luther changed the hymn.

prodriver »

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

...do you know Luther?
Do you know where the musik came from that he used for his songs? Do you know how many "stones" they threw at him? His songs came right from the lokal Bars and Pubs, so people knew the music and felt comfortable. He replaced the lyrics and made songs of praise and worship out of that.
...should he fall on his knees for such a sinfull behaviour?

prodriver »

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:30 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

I always find it interesting, to see the one who throughs the first stone.
His book is about Chruch Growth, not about eternity and heaven and hell.

In a book that wants to ebcourage the reader to think traditions over, I would not expect him to speak about eternal hell for those who do not come. He is not the one to send anyone to hell by his judgement.

This book is an offering to you to think traditions over. We live today, the bible does not say we have to have a service that is on methods from the middleage.

Where does all this critic really come from? You don´t have to agree to all he says, I don´t either, bevause it doesn´t fit at all to be suiteble to my church, but where does the Bible say anything against what is described in his book?

Who is the one to fall on his knees - at least I know one person to do that - me, everyday.

KoneWone2 »

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:19 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

The Purpose Driven Church (a critique)
Michael J. Penfold
www.webtruth.org

continued here:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/pdc-critique.htm

"How do you discover the mindset of lost people in your community?"

You study the Bible correctly. Then you can properly proclaim the true gospel to them. The mindset of lost people in your community is darkness and blindness. Only Jesus can open the eyes of the blind. Rick Warren does not preach the whole counsel of God, he has watered down the biblical Gospel and removed the fearsome awesome attributes of God. He has left out the fact that the damned who die in their sinful sate will be cast into the lake of fire forever. He has left out the fact that the wrath of God abides upon the lost continually. Rick Warremn preaches a tickling ears message. He should be on his face before God repenting for what he has done!

KoneWone2 »

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:06 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

The Purpose Driven Church (a critique)
Michael J. Penfold
www.webtruth.org

It’s a depressing statistic. A majority of Western churches do not see a single addition through conversion in a typical year. So to try and turn things round many are rejecting traditional methods of evangelism and adopting a new ‘church growth’ model. Market research has convinced them that unbelievers stay away from church not because they reject Christ, but because they reject the church’s boring presentation of Christ. There’s no need to change the product – just the packaging – and the crowds will come flocking back.

The new packaging is all about replacement. A ‘stage’ with a moveable Perspex lectern replaces the old wooden pulpit. PowerPoint graphics replace the hymn books. A rock band replaces the organ. A casually dressed and jovial audience replaces the reverent congregation. A charming minister in a t-shirt and jeans replaces the suited ‘preacher’. Fun replaces holiness as the tone of the service. Loud music, side-splitting drama, multimedia presentations and a humorous ‘talk’ replace hymn singing and preaching. But, we’re confidently assured, the message remains the same.

Judging by numbers alone the new model has certainly proved a success. Prominent ‘church growth’ pastors like Robert Schuller (Crystal Cathedral, LA), Rick Warren (Saddleback Church, California), Bill Hybels (Willow Creek Church, Chicago) and Joel Osteen (Lakewood Church, Houston) attract thousands to their churches each Sunday. Though a majority of this ‘growth’ occurs by transfer rather than ‘conversion’, multitudes of other churches have adopted this model and have seen their congregations rocket numerically. Small wonder anyone questioning the movement is told, “Never criticise what God is blessing.”1 Truth never stood a chance against success.

How widespread is this new phenomenon? Consider this fact; over 400,000 pastors from 162 countries have been trained under Rick Warren’s church growth seminar material alone. (Warren calls his philosophy a “stealth movement flying beneath the radar that’s changing literally thousands of churches around the world ”). His book The Purpose Driven Church, which espouses this new philosophy, has sold over 1 million copies in 20 languages and is a standard textbook in hundreds of Bible Colleges. Yet despite the incredible popularity of Rick Warren and others like him, there are numerous problems with the church growth movement, starting with its history.

Problem 1 — The Origin and History of the Movement

Continued here:

RBB »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

WiccanTexan - "See each other first as people, with loves and dislikes and flaws and unique experiences. Maybe the fish analogy of this article isn't quite so good, because it conveys the image of forcing someone into a place where they feel trapped, helpless, out of their element. Can anyone here come up with perhaps a better metaphor?"

I just look at it as treating people the way I want to be treated.

I wouldn't mind at all if you left a comment on my profile....you can do that? I'm still trying to navigate the new site. I'm not very good with technology :) My son will tell you I'm a tecnoweenie.

WiccanTexan »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

prodriver: "Or if he would say, look at this variety I created, look how they give what they love to praise my name. They even brought the bongos."

Hehehe. You know what? I love my pagan brethren, but I get tired of the musically-lite offerings sometimes. A good gospel tune gets my toes tapping, even though it's all about Jesus. Bongos good - Enya boring.

WiccanTexan »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:57 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

RBB: "As I read what you wrote last time you seem to be saying that thinking like a fish is to be prepared and willing to discuss the Bible and answer questions with a certain amount of intelligence."

And vice versus - I would expect that others would want the same from me.

RBB: "In the seeker sensitive movement it's more of a give them anything they want attitude."

I dislike that trend as well. Dumbing down is NEVER a good idea. People think that's what is meant by "making sure things are clearly stated, and don't ruffle any feathers." I'm sorry, playing it safe is NOT what spirituality is all about. It's about digging deep within ourselves, having our beliefs tested and challenged, separating out the chaff.

Now, I have no problem with making it fun. Hula Church sounds good. ;) But that doesn't mean that the content has to be whitewashed.

prodriver »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

...another thought crossed my mind. Did you ever here Tamile (is this the word?) worship and preach. Our church offers rooms for a tamile-church and they have their services on the sundays afternoon. It sounds horrible to my ears. Really. European Ears are used quite a lot, but if you listen to that, I could run away. BUT they praise God, this is their way, their culture and who am I to say, hey do it the traditional european way, Jesus wouldn´t sing like you do!

Do you get the point? Maybe it´s just the variety of people and cultures that causes this big mix of different service Styles.
I´m not shure if God would say, hey you should here the angels sing and praise my name. It sounds awfull what you do there on earth - wait for heaven and pls stop singing.
Or if he would say, look at this variety I created, look how they give what they love to praise my name. They even brought the bongos.

prodriver »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

RBB - no, don´t worry - no stones around. You know I can hardly imagine to visit such a service personally, and besides the link you gave to me, I don´t know anything about what´s going on there. In principle I have nothing against other music styles, if it comes to "fooling aound" I truely share your opinion. There´s no kidding with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
But I will not judge that, for I share what Rick preaches, as long as it is bibelbased. So I dn´t fear Rock-Musik at church, or even Hula - but I would expect hula Music in Hawaii and not in Cal. So let´s take what´s good in his words. God lets Saddleback grow enormously and there are many Churches, especially the charimatic orientated that share things during their gatherings that I do not like or see in the bible or feel uncomfortable with.
But I want to be far away of saying that they do wrong or are worse Followers of Christ then I am. God has many faces, who am I to know them all - but he doesn´t change.
May God bless you all and the ministry God does through you!

WiccanTexan »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Folks, the dialogue below between RBB and myself is a prime example, for me, of what is meant by learning how the other side thinks. We've just discovered a common ground, and will be seeking each other out there. From learning how the other thinks and believes, we can enter into future discussions with a broader understanding and mutual respect for each other as people, even when we disagree (which I'm sure we will).

See each other first as people, with loves and dislikes and flaws and unique experiences. Maybe the fish analogy of this article isn't quite so good, because it conveys the image of forcing someone into a place where they feel trapped, helpless, out of their element. Can anyone here come up with perhaps a better metaphor?

WiccanTexan »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

RBB, I'll check it out. Mind if I leave a comment on your profile? (I already found it)

And now, back to our regularly scheduled program..... ;)

RBB »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

WiccanTexan - It's a dialog group under Christianity. I've really got to get back to posting.

WiccanTexan »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

RBB, my Bnet screen name is "Seshen" That or "wiccantexan" is how you'll see me on the Net. I used to be the Bnet Witchcraft board host. Where is your group located? I'll go check it out.

RBB »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

WiccanTexan - Because I have very little imagination it's the same as here :) How about you? There was a Wiccan I used to talk to a year or two ago......?

I haven't been on much lately. I started a group recently, believe it or not about Seeker Sensitive, and just can't seem to get over there to comment much. I'm may be becoming less confrontational in my old age. But I have to say that Beliefnet helped me work through a lot when I left my church of origin 5 years ago.

RBB »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

prodriver - "I try to figure out how to reach people who live close to my church and what people they are and how to reach them, "think like them"


We do go and preach, and baptize, because it's what we've been commanded to do. We are told to witness, and God worries about "reaching them".

I think though that we are to do it with all our heart, as if it did depend on how we do it.

My brother, what is important is that we do witness because that's what we're told to do. I wish you well in your doing, however you do it.
....................................

I just saw your last post. This is the link to the worship services at Saddleback look at the second one down on the left.

I don't want in anyway to be a stumbling block to you. I hope I haven't been.

http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/todaystory.asp?id=5700

WiccanTexan »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

RBB: "or on Beliefnet"

Are you on Beliefnet? I'm on Beliefnet! Small world. ;) If so, what's your screen name?

prodriver »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

as far as I now Wilow and Saddleback don´t have Elvis church, Clown church, Hula church ...
do they? And as far as I know this is not what Rick suggests to have in his book and in his mind. If you critize Chuches like that, I follow the point, for I can not find demands like that in the bible.

RBB »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

WiccanTexan - As I read what you wrote last time you seem to be saying that thinking like a fish is to be prepared and willing to discuss the Bible and answer questions with a certain amount of intelligence. Such as what we might do here, or on Beliefnet, or say if you witnessed to someone and they had a question or saw a place in the Bible where they saw a contradiction. If I'm wrong in how I took what you wrote let me know.

In the seeker sensitive movement it's more of a give them anything they want attitude. The gospel is changed to eliminate the parts that non-Christians might find objectionable, like sin, repentance, hell, things that might be considered negative, that might make people uncomfortable and not want to come back. Churches are changed to eliminate things like the cross and anything that might smack of "Christianity". Instead of a worship service what you end up with is an entertainment. We have now, Elvis church, Clown church, Hula church, anything to amuse and keep people coming. There is a quote from a woman who attends Willow Creek that has stuck with me since I read it. She said that it wasn't like going to church , but like "being sprinkled with Jesus dust".

There is a lot more to this, a lot more, but if I had to put it in a nutshell...that would be where I would start.

As to your second question.....Because He told us to :). It's as simple as that. He does it, but we can be the instrument he uses some of the time. I actually think there are times it does us as much good as the person we are doing it to.

prodriver »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Math. 28,19 says: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost..", Jesus says "go" and do and I go with you and work through you. Rick says, ok, I go but I go the best I can so I try to understand todays people, I try to figure out how to reach people who live close to my church and what people they are and how to reach them, "think like them". If you hook on the work "think" then you lose the point of his message. Go and do what God calls and demands us to the best we can, even if God decides who will follow him and why and when.
But this is up to God. He gave all he had for us, his son, now all we can give is all we have and obey, we should stop critizising one of Gods workers but trying to understand what we can learn from him, if it works with the scipture. That does not say "do whatever Rick does".

RBB »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

prodriver - These passages of scripture from Ephesians Chapter 1 and more like them are why I say that it's God who reaches people. He uses us to spread the word but it's Him that makes the understanding possible for those He has chosen to come to Him.

"4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will"
I'm a little surprised to hear you say that it's "dangerously far to easy". Why? All things are possible with God.

I do preach with both my brain and heart, but the most important part is the words that the Holy Spirit is putting in my mouth. As scriptures says in 1 Corinthians 3 "7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase". No amount of changing how we do it matters, only that we do it. God makes it possible for those He chooses to understand what's being said.

Yes, God can make anything you ask for through Christ, and in faith, happen if it's His will for it to happen. On the other hand it's GOD that is doing it, not you. The same is true of preaching.

WiccanTexan »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:44 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

RBB: "The Bible is plain that it is God who chooses those who come to Him, and He makes it possible for them to understand the gospel."

So, I'm going to toss this into the challenge ring. If God chooses who comes to Him, and gives them the ability to understand the gospel, then what is the point of witnessing? It's already been decided who's going to be saved; there will be no choice on the part of the individual.

WiccanTexan »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

RBB: "The point is though that the kind of "thinking like a fish" that they are talking about here is not the same thing you are talking about."

Give me your overview of what is meant by "thinking like a fish" so I know where you're coming from, if my interpretation is missing it.

prodriver »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

alle Rick says is: use what God gave you to reach people. Don´t let it up to chance, learn what people you can reach, learn how you can reach them and do so. God is the one who turns theier lives, but he needs us to do so. Become a professional fisher.

I don´t stand before wall street to preach the gospel - God might reach some of them through me, but God didn´t design me to do so. He has given me and you different ways to speek, different looks and different experiences in live.

Did you ever pray to God to show you the group of unsaved HE wants to use you for?
Do you play football? So you know what your non christian friends talk about, you speeek theier language - go and tell them about God the way they can understand it. Did you ever tell your friend, hey God says you are a sinner and you need to be saved! This is not what God wants you to do, don´t tell me that! This is the worst way to approach them, even though God might even use this. Rick says, use your Godgiven Head to reach out to them. This ALWAYS includes God, but also more of us and our awareness then we think up to now and this is all Rick says.
When did you preach the Gospel to your unbelieving friends last time?

Why do you say, only God can reach them, so I don´t have to think of ways.
This is to dangerously far to easy. We have a brain to be used and a heart to feel with, use them and go and preach appropriately, this is all it is about. Let God use all of you, noit just your mouth. The old stories in the bible tell me that I can walk on water. This doens´t only mean that I could do that through Christ today, this also means that if it is God will and I live my life the way he has planned it for me, I can do ANYTHING through Christ. I can be healed from cancer, I can manage the Test I have to write tomorrow and that I am afraid of, he can heal my marriage. This is what Rick is talking about and this is not chnaging the gospel. Preach it according to theier situation and status, so they can understand.
God call us a job to do, you do it using you gifts and with to the people you can reach - these might be others then the ones God chose me for!

KoneWone2 »

Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:39 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

"To Catch Fish, Learn to Think Like Them"

Rick Warren is wrong. There is a great delusion over the church at present and many millions of people are deceived by Rick Warren's Purpose Driven program.

The Gospel According to Hybels & Warren
(By Nathan Busenitz)

http://www.biblebb.com/files/gathw.htm

2. The Approach: Christians Need to Think Like Unbelievers.

a. Explanation. A second tenet of seeker-sensitive methodology is that believers need to think like unbelievers in order to reach the lost. To be effective, evangelists must begin by putting themselves in the shoes of the unchurched— purposefully making their messages relevant to the felt needs of the audience. Thus, Hybels has his "Unchurched Harry" and Warren his "Saddleback Sam"— names given to the typical individual who makes up the target audience of Willow Creek and Saddleback Church. Lee Strobels, formerly at Willow Creek, is now the teaching pastor of Saddleback. Regarding the church's target audience, he says this:

Once the bull's-eye of a target audience is defined, the next step is to determine how to get the arrow there. That means developing a workable strategy for reaching that group. . . . When [church members are] regularly hanging around Unchurched Harry and Mary, talking with them over dinner or going out to movies with them, they naturally get to know the kind of approach that will attract or repel them."38

In other words, believers need to understand the felt needs of seekers if those seekers are to be effectively reached.

Warren echoes this strategy, telling his readers to:

Adapt your style to fit your audience. . . . The ground we have in common with unbelievers is not the Bible, but our common needs, hurts, and interests as human beings. You cannot start with a text, expecting the unchurched to be fascinated by it. You must first capture their attention, and then move them to the truth of God's Word. By starting with a topic that interests the unchurched and then showing what the Bible says about it, you can grab their attention, disarm prejudices, and create an interest in the Bible that wasn't there before.39

And Hybels wholeheartedly agrees:

If we're going to speak with integrity to secular men and women, we need to work through two critical areas before we step into the pulpit. The first is to understand the way they think. . . . The second prerequisite to effective preaching to non-Christians is that we [think] like them.40

In other words, "successful fishing requires the ability to think like a fish."41

Continued here:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/gathw.htm

More on Rick Warren's false teachings here:

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Seeker-Sensitive/

RBB »

Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

WiccanTexan - Whether a person believes they have sinned or not is not material to how one witnesses. We are to simply present the gospel. We plant the seed and God gives the increase. I'm glad to hear you wouldn't want a dumbed down gospel. Hopefully someone out there will read this and get that message.

I couldn't agree more on wondering what the heck was going on with that woman. If she wants to be a missionary, or even converse with those that aren't Christians, then she is going to have to actually get in there and do it. From my own experience I can attest to what you are saying, that many non-Christians are very knowledgeable about the the Bible and Christian literature. I also am at a loss about the "cleansing" business. Cleansing in what way? The point is though that the kind of "thinking like a fish" that they are talking about here is not the same thing you are talking about. This subject really is one that if you want to understand you're going to have to research. It would be like me trying to explain to you the ways of being a pagan. If you're interested I can give you some websites to get you started.

RBB »

Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

prodriver-

When I say a language they can understand, I'm referring to English, Spanish, French..... In other words when we are speaking English to a person who also speaks English, there is no need to change the gospel to explain it to them.

I don't think that you are putting God down. The problem is that you are under the misunderstanding that it is what "we" do that in any way brings people to Christ. The Bible is plain that it is God who chooses those who come to Him, and He makes it possible for them to understand the gospel. I'll be happy to give you some scripture to look at, but for a start I would suggest a good reading of Ephesians.

Christ was indeed the example of behavior, and he never compromised on His message or changed it to make it palatable for nonbelievers. He simply said what he had to say, and those that God chose understood. That is what we are to do. Preach the gospel in a simple straightforward manner. There is no need for the other stuff going on today.

WiccanTexan »

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Here’s a real-life story that pertains to this topic. My husband, a Wiccan priest, used to teach a Wiccan workshop in a public bookstore. One day, he was conversing with a co-worker who was studying to be a missionary. She mentioned how she was learning to spread the Word to others. He said, “I teach a workshop that gets 20-30 pagans attending. Would you like to come by and talk with them to learn how to handle questions?”

Her reply? “Oh, no, I couldn’t do THAT! I’d have to cleanse myself over and over afterwards.”

Umm…. Hello? She wanted to be a missionary. She was offered a whole room full of pagans. But the idea of even sitting and conversing with them was beneath her. Exactly who was she going to try and convert, the local Bible study class?

Fear of the unknown, IMHO, is what a lot of folks run into when they are faced with possibly talking about more than the surface of a religion; having to answer things that are seen as contradictory. Want to learn the language of the non-Christian? You actually have to be willing to TALK to us as people, and be prepared to be challenged by folks who’ve done some pretty heavy study of Biblical literature themselves. It’s about self-confidence, it’s about not being afraid to say, “I don’t know.” It’s about being able to listen, rather than just quote and admonish. It’s about just talking person-to-person, not "saved" vs "damned."

WiccanTexan »

Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:22 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

"I'm sorry but just about anyone should be able to understand the simple words " God sent His Son to earth to pay for the sins of those that will repent of their sins, and follow Him in giving their lives to serving God.", assuming it's said in a language they understand. "

The first error is in assuming a non-Christian believes in sin, and therefore that they have to repent and be saved from something. THAT's what is meant by "speaking their language." Being a descendent tainted with original sin simply isn't part of how we see ourselves. So that approach would be meaningless in terms of explaining what God's word is. Too many Christians aren't able to adequately explain what that means in today's world.

I understand where you're coming from in the "sensitive church" idea; PC has truly screwed up our society and how we communicate and relate to each other. But you have no requirement to follow the dumbing-down trend; in fact, I would consider it an insult if you did. It's a lack of respect for the inherent intelligence of a person.

prodriver »

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

pls don´t get me wrong...when I say: "added by Gods power" I don´t put him down or anything - God is working through us, but even though he is, he is not going to make things change if we take things the easy way. In Gods plans we have a Job to do and we have to do the best job we can. This includes preaching the way non believers get a chance to understand. We live in the world and are about to become more and more like Christ. He used simple words, he was poor and one of "them", even though he did not behave like them - his life is the sample of Christian behaviour and mission.
to Cheala34life, I totally agree.
to RGG "assuming it's said in a language they understand. " this is all what it is about.

Cheala34life »

Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

someone stated that Jesus did tell his desciples to think like sinners. Actually he did. He put it this way. Be harmless as doves, but wise as serpents. you have to know how the world works in order to be wise a serpents. This present world is under satans influence. sinnres in this world are undet satans influence. You have to look, at the bigger picture.

Don't forget that the Holy Spirit is involved and he knows where each individual is. He can aid you in turninga conversation into a very significant witness for God.

RBB »

Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:54 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

"If you understand his thinking and accept him the way he is, you have a slight chance (added by Gods mighty power) to speak words of truth to him that he might understand."


Here is a very good example of one of the main flaws with this teaching. God's mighty power...as an afterthought. How can you say that you think that God has might power when you say you have to think like a sinner, change the gospel to make it palatable for the sinner, and turn your church into somewhere that looks and sounds like the world, and then maybe just maybe, the sinner might think about coming to Christ...oh and lets not forget a little of God's might power.

God is a sovereign God. He created the universe. There is nothing on this world or in the universe that is too hard for Him to do. He doesn't need you thinking like a sinner, or any of this other nonsense. He doesn't need you to bring a sinner to a saving understanding of Himself at all. He chooses those that come and makes them able to understand, all we have to do is say the words, words that have preached for the last 2000 years. He does the rest.

prodriver »

Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

eg, if you talk about highly religious or spiritual things - they might not care.
Fish is not Fish - we have to find the "sort of fish" we personally can raelate to and learn who to reach them - spreading the Gospel isn´t always enaugh - Jesus did not run around preaching, he lived love, he healed people and he took care on those no one did, he understood their lives and way.

prodriver »

Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

The thing is thta you have to understand what is going on in a non christian head. If you understand his thinking and accept him the way he is, you have a slight chance (added by Gods mighty power) to speek words of truth to him that he might understand.
If you don´t understand how the fish ticks you will never catch him - you don´t have to live like non believers you have to understand them - to know them and first of all - to love them.
blessings pro