Evangelicals Lambaste Gay Employment Bill

Gibbons Family »

Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Flagged as inappropriate. show Not sure everyone has seen this post, and we want all brothers to have a chance to consider it before we turn the page. So we're gonna post this a couple more times where different brothers are speaking on fresh topics before we move on. We trust we have your approval. -------------------------------------------------------------- When you're involved in some place, it sometimes isn't as apparent to you as it should be how much the environment has gradually decayed. (This is how the western world has decayed since the 1970's, without most people noticing just how bad.) Christian newcomers arrive to the place you've been in for some time, and they are shocked how unchristian this place is and wonder what you are doing here. We are told to not be a part of the world, but not to take ourselves out of the world. We are to let our light shine. With unbelievers, I believe God has clear instructions on how true Christians are to handle them and their questions. With those who are argumentative about what we preach, we are to give them a couple of warnings, Then if they persist in their perverted arguments, we are to turn away from such ones. If we don't, we grieve and risk losing God's Holy Spirit which guides us. If we continuously disobey God in this matter, we certainly and needlessly place ourselves in a spiritually dangerous position. Is that God's Word or not? I ask you brothers these three questions, However solid you think you are in your faith, are you putting your spirituality in danger by continuously engaging with someone who is repeatedly arguing with your scriptural teaching and is obviously a Hater of God and His Good Teachings? Are there any scriptures that clearly tell us what God's Word is regarding what we are counselled to do by God when dealing with unbelievers who oppose God's Word we are sharing with them and repeatedly argue against us over the same issues? Are there any scriptures that clearly tell us the danger we are putting ourselves in by not following God's Will when dealing with unrepentant and rebellious unbelievers? Brothers, let us consider these questions for a moment and let God's Holy Spirit guide us to a solution that finds us obedient to God's Good Counsel. TGF The most loving thing you can do for your family is to pull them out of the public school system and keep them far away from apostate churches. hide

jc4me »

Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Footnotes:

a. 1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites

jc4me »

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Peter 4
1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us[a] in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime[b] in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

wbmoore »

Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:29 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

I wish we could edit our posts. I went back and re-read my post about homosexuality and realized I juxtaposed two sentences in my mind and only wrote part of it.

where I wrote"The law was intended to lead us to Christ by showing us our need - we can not be righteous with Him "
I means to write: "The law was intended to lead us to Christ by showing us our need - we can not be righteous by it, not can we be righteous without faith in Him."

wbmoore »

Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:25 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

ifeelfine72,

I did address your post. and I did not talk down to you. I responded to your comment:
"It's fine to read the Bible like a fourth grader if you're in fourth grade, otherwise, read it like and adult."

I think to try to ignore what scripture says about what is sin is being childish and willful. You're free to do it. We all have areas we are blind to not being in line with God's word. But it is most definitely the word of God. Just because you dont like the way it reads does not mean God made a mistake. To ignore scripture when its very plain is dangerous and wrong.

But as I said, you're free to do as you wish - just dont think your decisions, choices, and actions will not have consequences.

jc4me »

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:47 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

Only the Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can cleanse us of all unrighteousness and filthy sin - this does include many other things, but as it pertains to this article - adultery, fornication, and yes, homosexuality. Too many in today's church want to cover up sin, and be politically relevent to today's "culture". They water-down the Wrod of God, and twist it to make it seem more "pleasant" to the ears. Many people want to hear what feesds their ego; they don;t want to hear the truth that transforms lives for their own good and for God's pleasure.

The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us are without sin. The Good News is that Jesus Christ became God in the flesh for us! He decended from his exalted heavenly place, and willfully shed His Prescious Blood and gave up His life so that we may have a relationship with God the Father our Creator.

We need to first acknowledge that we are all sinners; we need to repent - that is to literally and willfully choose to turn away from our old life of living in sins; we need to ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior of our lives (this means we hand over our free will to Him, and choose toi obey His commands and teachings). We must put our total trust and confidence ino Him, and then follow Him.

The question is, have we trully repented, and turned back from our sin. That is to say, if we're willfully, and rebelliously living in sin, have we made a conscious choice to turn from that sin, die to ourselves, pick up our crosses daily and follow Christ?

None of these sins are unpardonable, but God has given us a free choice. We must choose this day whom we will serve. Are we going to choose to gratify our flesh and live in sin, or are we going to die to ourselves, and choose to follow Christ Jesus?

Whoever doesn't truly know Christ on this site, please give your life to him. You will not regret it. He will never bring up your past. We all have pasts, but God can make you a new person, and as you continue to seek after Him and as you surrender your life to Him, He will continue to mold you and make you into the vessel of honor He wants you to be. I hope this touches someone out there, and may the Lord turn your heart to repentance. God Bless You.

John5796 »

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:07 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

ZoeB: Pick and choose? You quoted verses that should be obeyed by Christians. You did not mention any that call sodomy an abomination. I wonder who's picking and choosing?

wbmoore »

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:47 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

Let's see what God says about homosexuality: he called it sinful, shameful, impurity, degrading, unnatural, indecent, depraved, something that ought not to be done - Romans 1:22-32

By putting your desires above God's you are putting yourself, a created creature, in the place of God in your life. By refusing to accept what God has said about homosexual sex being a sin, you are refusing to honor God. By ignoring His word, you are being ungodly, and suppressing the truth. By saying that your thoughts on the subject are more important that God's thoughts on it, you are exchanging the truth of God for your own thoughts. If you want to sin and ignore God, you are certainly free to do so. God will eventually give you more and more of it, until you reap what you sow. When anything takes the place of God in your life (whether its a TV, a job, a person, yourself, your desires, your fears, money, fame, a carved idol, etc), then you are sinning. If you continue to do so, you are hardening your heart. God will eventually give you over to that sin - He will eventually harden your heart. Your sin will eventually move from a personal hidden thing to a public thing, to a thing where you approve of others doing your sin. And your sin will cause you to do other unrighteous things

People who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

The law was intended to lead us to Christ by showing us our need - we can not be righteous with Him - Romans 3:20
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Now if we have Christ, we are to leave behind our lives of sinfulness and not present our bodies to sin, but to God as interuments of righteousness.
Romans 6:11-16
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Just because we are under grace does not mean the consequence of our sinful desires will not come to us. We need to leave sin, not embrace it.

Romans 8:13
13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

ZoeB »

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

I'd give my opinion on interpretation and picking-and-choosing of the new law, but I'm forbidden to, aren't I, John5796? wbmoore?

Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:11-12)

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).

ifeelfine72 »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:36 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

wbmoore - you still didn't address my post - you just talked down to me like I'm your ten year old. Do you stone adulterers? Do you tell remarried divorcees that they are going to hell for living in a constant state of adultery? Biblically, your arguments don't hold water.

John5796 »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:21 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

rcinsocal: Are you that ignorant of the bible, that you copy and paste the same OT passages all over this web site? Those old laws were taken care of at the cross. This disgusting, degenerate lifestyle of sodomy that you are apparently championing is condemmed as an abomination numerous times in the new testament. Try reading it sometime.

wbmoore »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:34 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

I dont live by the law, but I can use it to recognize what God says is wrong -- that's what scripture says to do.

You're free to reinterpret scripture all you like. You can think yourself more mature, I know my 10 year old son often thinks he knows better than his father - but then finds out later that he was wrong. I try to not to reinterpret scripture; I try to take the whole of scripture and use it as a users manual. Its pretty clear what God likes and does not like. I think we should love people who live lives of sin. That does not mean we should let them define what is right and wrong - God's already done that.

God also said that there are people who try to justify themselves and ignore what God says.
Psalm 361:-3 1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes. 2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin. 3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and to do good.

Luke 16:15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.”

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter

Romans 14:16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil

So you go ahead and call good that which God said is evil.

ifeelfine72 »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:13 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

wbmoore - But we as Christians interpret the Word every single day. I don't own any slaves, I've never stoned an adulterer, I only have one wife, I eat plenty of shellfish, etc. You interpret the Bible according to your own prejudices. Stop saaying it's God's Word! It's your interpretation of his Word. You ignore the stuff that isn't pleasing or culturally relavent and live according to the Word as best as you can.

It's fine to read the Bible like a fourth grader if you're in fourth grade, otherwise, read it like and adult.

wbmoore »

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

As I see it, the issue is not whether homosexuality (or adultery or fornication) is a sin -- any Christian who hold to the Bible as God's word and do not try to reinterpret it can recognize that homosexual sex is sin, according to God, even if we are not justified by, or subject to, the Law, we are still to use it to recognize sin (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:19-25; Romans 5:13-14; Matthew 15:18-20; Mark 7:20-23 ; Romans 1:24-32; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Lev 18; Lev 20:13; Gen 20:1-7; Deut 5:18; Heb 13:4; 1 Corinthians 6:18; 1 Corinthians 7:2; 1 Thes 4:3-8).

But the real issue is what we as Christians should do for people who live in a state of sin. It seems to me that Christ and Paul both went to where the sinners were and preached the word of God. They hated the sin but loved the sinners -- enough so that they were killed for what they believed (granted, in Christ's case, it was prophesied and it needed to happen so those who believed could have eternal life, but that does not make it any less love). They went among the sinners - not the righteous. They taught people their need to repent and turn to God, sin no more (live lives that reflect the repentance) and to love and obey God and love others (Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 22:36-40; John 14:15; John 14:21; Acts 26:20; James 2:14-17; Acts 5:29; Romans 6:11-23; Romans 8:13; Hebrews 5:9; 1 John 5:2-3; 1 John 3:7-10).

But Christ and Paul also said that if someone who calls himself a Christian sins, they should be gently reminded of what they are doing. If they continue, they should be spoken to about it with two or three others. If they continue to sin, then they need to be sent away from the church until such time as they repent. (Matthew 18:15-22; Galatians 6:1-2; 1 Timothy 5:19-22; Hebrews 3:12-13; James 5:19-20; Titus 3:9-11; Ephesians 5:11; 1 Corinthians 5:11)

I think scripture is clear, we need to not have sinners in our midst. But that does not mean we should not go out to them and love them as Christ and Paul loved them.

rcinsocal »

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:50 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 7

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16)
Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

savedbygrace »

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:14 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

Titus 3:9-11 “But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they ar unprofitable and vain. A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition, reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.”

Prophet »

Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:56 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

Citizen--
Apparently, you missed the point. I am sorry about that, but I'm not going to try to explain it to you. I'm not much into legal mumbo jumbo, because my ultimate guide on how to live is the Bible. Am I an extremist? Possibly. I do believe whole-heartedly in following and obeying the laws that the government has laid out....IF they do not contradict the Word of God. If they do, then I will follow the will of the One who controls my eternity, even at the risk of imprsionment or death. I am a son of God first, then a citizen of America second.
I'm not sure what message you got from my post, but you apparently missed what I had intended to bring across. I am assuming because your legalistic, "learned" intellect did not grasp such a simple concept as what I was trying to portray. Read it again...lower your expectations...and see if you can grasp the simplicity of the message. Not everything from God is "deep" and philisophical.

Citizen »

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:13 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 7

ZoeB: *wild applause*

Prophet: Read Employment Division v. Smith (494 U.S. 872) You'll find out that claiming a practice as your religion might not be enough to save it. The Free Exercise clause is not absolute.

bcootz: people are accountable for their behavior to each other, not your god. If they don't want or need your "help" in the "eternal" then you probably best back off. You don't have their best interests at heart, you just don't like who they share their lives with. But you don't get input into that decision, unless you try to force yourself on them by law. Law made based on your bible, which is a violation of the Establishment Clause.

bcoontz »

Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:48 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

When we begin to say that we are not accountable for our own behavior, all forms of behavior can be rationalized. Make no mistake, homosexuality is a behavior. More importantly, though, is that there are several specific biblical admonitions against this practice and the results are eternal. No one is saying that they can't do as they please, only that there is a steep price to pay. And don't expect people to condone behavior that they find reprehensible. Being sexual is not a choice (although some can abstain), but we do choose the sexual expression. The long and the short of it, for me anyway, is that if I agree to the normalization of homosexuality, I am saying that I don't care where this person spends eternity. The homosexual can find forgiveness in Christ, but they must also admit that they have sinned and, with God's help, to repent. To say that it is not a sin is to call God a liar. And if you think that it is only an Old Testament law, you only need to read the letters to the seven churches in revelation to know that the prohibition against sexual immorality is still in play.

Prophet »

Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:02 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 5

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Christians claim that if this bill would pass that they would not be able to discriminate based on sexual orientation. They're afraid that homosexuals would then be able to gain employment at religious businesses and "infect" the atmosphere there with their beliefs. But has it crossed any Christians' mind that businesses cannot discriminate based on religious beliefs? So, why are't Christians getting jobs at places who's agendas are blatantly pro-gay and infecting them with Christian beliefs? Because most "Chrtistians" are merely religious, and would not want to soil themselves by going into the trenches of spiritual warfare. I'm reading a book "Your God Is Too Safe" by Mark Buchanan. If you get a chance to read it, it will change your life. But at one point he talks about the differences between Jesus' ethics and the religious people's ethics. The religious people had an ethic of avoidance, and Jesus had an ethic of involvement. The religious people were more concerned with looking good and not touching the unclean thing (in other words, they were self-absorbed and prideful), and Jesus was concerned with getting in there and changing what was wrong. The religious people weren't concerned about rescuing sinners, just avoiding sin.
So...what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we're afraid of the homosexuals infiltrating our camps with their message, then why aren't they afraid of Christians infiltrating their camps with our message? Because they know we're religious, and would not want to touch the unclean thing. That's sad.
www.isaiahscry.blogspot.com

ifeelfine72 »

Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:10 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

ZoeB - that might be one of the most rational Christian points on the subject in a long time!

ZoeB »

Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:38 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 6

"An organization “whose entire focus” and “reason for being” is to promote a particular social view based on scripture would be forced to hire a person with a “diametrically opposing” view on the issue, Hanna contended."
Like Hindus and Jews. Sorry, that one won't wash.

"They emphasized that someone can easily be identified as black, female or of a particular religion, but there is no way to identify someone’s sexual orientation besides a confession by the individual."
Funny, I had no idea that by merely looking at someone, one could determine they were Catholic or Buddhist. I thought it took a confession of belief. No, that one doesn't pass the smell test either.

"The Baptist preacher said his organization is opposed to the bill morally, on biblical grounds, and because it is “insanity” and will “wreck the economy of this country.”
As it has in the 20 states which have similar legislation at the state level? Including the most wealthy states of the Union?

Look, there may be good reasons to reject this legislation. But the pastor's arguments sound very much like desperate attempts to find reasons for a pre-judged conclusion, based on quite different grounds. We have a word called Prejudice. From the latin, pre iudice, pre-judge.

Finally, and this is a question I ask of all people who believe being Gay is a "lifestyle choice": When did they decide to be heterosexual?
Many take umbrage at that. "It's not a choice, it's the way I am!" They resent the implication that they could be anything different. While not Lesbian myself, I can't help wondering at the obvious illogic of that inconsistency.

I see nothing Christian about the pastor's statement, though undoubtedly he is a good Christian man. I see someone acting in accordance with his own conscience, but lacking Charity. As did the Pharisees, who acted according to their interpretation of the letter of scripture too, without trying to determine the spirit that inspired it. Of course being a fallible sinner myself, my opinions could be wrong.