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Society|Wed, Oct. 24 2007 09:43 AM EDT

Bush to Veto Gay Employment Bill

By Michelle Vu|Christian Post Reporter

WASHINGTON – The White House indicated Tuesday that the president would veto a bill seeking to grant greater rights to homosexuals in the workplace if Congress passed it this week.

  • President Bush
    (Photo: AP Images / Pablo Martinez Monsivais)
    President Bush waves after speaking at National Defense University's Distinguished Lecture Program during his visit to Eisenhower Hall Baruch Auditorium at Fort McNair in Washington, Tuesday, Oct. 23, 2007.

The Executive Office of the President issued a statement of administration policy expressing that the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, H.R. 3685, raises concerns on constitutional and policy grounds, and that his senior advisors would recommend President George W. Bush to veto the bill.

Concerned Women for America, a conservative public policy women’s organization, applauded the White House for signaling a likely veto of ENDA.

“This dangerous bill would pit the government directly against the free exercise of religion, a situation which is unconstitutional on its face,” said Matt Barber, CWA’s policy director for Cultural Issues.

“Members of Congress should join the president and exercise their sworn duty to defend the U.S. Constitution by voting ‘no’ on ENDA,” he added.

ENDA seeks to add sexual orientation to the list of federally protected classes – which includes race, color, religion, sex and national origin – that prohibits job discrimination.

Colin A. Hanna, founder and president of the conservative grassroots group Let Freedom Ring, pointed out that while the current legislation had some provisions exempting churches it would apply to Christian ministries and pro-family groups who are against the homosexual lifestyle.

An organization “whose entire focus” and “reason for being” is to promote a particular social view based on scripture would be forced to hire a person with a “diametrically opposing” view on the issue, Hanna contends.

“That is about as upside-down and about as perverted a reading as what the first amendment is about as I can imagine,” Hanna said at an ENDA press conference on Friday.

The White House agrees that the legislation is “inconsistent” with the right to free exercise of religion. It also highlighted that the bill’s wording is “imprecise” and subjective to interpretation that would make enforcement “extremely difficult,” such as establishing liability for “perceived” sexual orientation, or “association” with individuals of a particular sexual orientation.

“If passed, H.R. 3685 is virtually certain to encourage burdensome litigation beyond the cases that the bill is intended to reach,” the White House warned.

Some have raised questions on how human resource managers would apply the bill in the real world. They emphasized that someone can easily be identified as black, female or of a particular religion, but there is no way to identify someone’s sexual orientation besides a confession by the individual.

Under the legislation, homosexuals could sue their employer for firing them by claiming they were released due to their sexual orientation when their employer fired them because of poor job performance. It would be difficult for human resource managers to distinguish if a person was fired because of their poor performance or for their sexual identity.

“It (ENDA) is not needed. All that is needed is men and women to decide who they are and go to work everyday and do their job,” stated the Rev. Rick Scarborough who heads Vision America – a grassroots movement to restore Christian values in society.

Alliance Defense Fund president and general counsel Alan Sears thanked the White House for threatening to veto the “dangerous” and “blatantly unconstitutional” ENDA bill.

“We’re very thankful that the White House has recognized these constitutional issues and has advised the president to veto this legislation if it reaches his desk,” he said.

The U.S. House of Representatives is expected to debate and vote on H.R. 3685 as early as Wednesday.

On the Web: Petition against Hate Crimes and ENDA Bills at FocusPetitions.org.

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  • Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Ummmm they just added that into King James. Yeah I tend not to trust that bible brand. Changes too much with politics. I find that it also changes things around and adds things in that were never in the bible to begin with such as they added homosexuals to Corinthians. I am afraid that I will have to stick to bibles with the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur (No Protestant bibles for me either). And yes, Jc4me, your perceptions of the bible ARE biased (even for a King James, which basically does all the bias itself :P). Anyone with ONE cent's worth of discernment could see that. However I do agree that this law should not be expanded to homosexuals. Not only could anyone claim that they were homosexual, but it is much trickier to fire a homosexual under this law because if you are Christian and fire someone who claims to be a homosexual... you are screwed.

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)

    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

    Footnotes:

    1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites

  • Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Amen and Amen Prophet.

  • Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:02 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Yes, jc4me, its just a short time before even speaking out against such things as homosexuality, transgenderism, tranasexualism will be considered a hate crime. The grip is slowly closing around Christianity's neck. But be joyful, or our blessed hope comes soon!
    "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greate than he who is in the world." First John 4:3-4

  • Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:28 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Peter 4
    1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us[a] in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime[b] in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

  • Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:41 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    ifeelfine,
    "You're making things up and it isn't Biblically based at all. Now you're interpreting the Word according to your biases and beliefs."
    i am not interpreting the Bible based on biased viewes. Anyone with 2 cents of discernment would tell you that if a woman is being threatened to be killed or is being physically abused should run from her husband. God gives us common sense, obviously, you're not using yours. in addition, just because you don't agree with my answer, and with the bilbical basis for divorce if adultery is committed doesn't make it biblically unsound. Read my answer in context, and spin what I have written to suite your being "right about it". Search the scriptures for yourself, don't take my answer for it, or anyones on this site. furthermore, Canada is left leaning, and socialist in many ways. By the way, I never mentioned that Jesus was Socialist, or Capitalist, and neither do I believe he was one or the other. He just did everything according to God's Will, and did not try to twist it. Getting back to the origination of the thread which you tried to avoid, and talk your way out of by bringing in the question on divorce not just on this post, but others - homosexuality, divorce, adultery, and fornications are sins, whether you agree with it or not. they are also forgovable to those who repent. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but if you asked me, i gave you my response. rather than bickering over your "opinion" vs my "opinion" read the Word of God in it's entirety without taking out the parts you don't like.

  • Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:24 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    jc4me - there may be a clause for adultry but not for violence or abuse. Also, the Bible doesn't say anything about the offended party not committing adultry if they remarry. You're making things up and it isn't Biblically based at all. Now you're interpreting the Word according to your biases and beliefs.

    By the way, to call Canada "leftist" or "socialist" is absolutely ridiculous and isn't based in reality at all. What about making sure the sick are properly cared for makes a country socialist? If that makes a country socialist then Jesus was a socialist. For the record I don't think Jesus was a socialist but lets just say that he leaned more toward socialism than toward capitalism.

  • Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:33 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Telling people the whole thruth of God's Word is not hate as some would say on this blog. We need to get back to teaching the Word expositorilly, book by book, chapter by chapter, precept upon precept, line by line. There's too much "topical" sermons being preached which don't ground people in the Word.

  • Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:29 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Romans 1:16-20

    16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

  • Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:29 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Romans 1:21-25

    21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

  • Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:28 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Romans 1: 26-32

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
    Continued Scripture verses from God's Word:

  • Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:27 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Proponents of hate crimes legislation would just love to have pastor's incarcerated for preaching the Word of God on this matter. It's happening in Liberal/socialist Canada already.

  • Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:16 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    I feel fine 72, I will try to lovingly respond to you. You're right, divorce is a sin, but it is forgivable just like the other's I listed. I also left out liars, cheaters, murderers, backbiters, and the list goes on, but since the blog is related to homosexuality, I obviously am going to respond to that which pertains to what the article is about. Do you read the Word of God? I would have to say that your quote: is only half true: "According to the Bible, anyone who gets remarried after having gone through a divorce is living in a constant state of adultry. Funny how no one wants to address that but is certainly interested in chastising those queers! What a bunch of phony hypocrites you are. "

    The rest of the story that you had ommitted (possibly in error I presume) is that Jesus according to the Gospels in the Bible only allows for divorce when there is marital unfaithfulness (ie adultery) although, God's best is always reconciliation. So if a person did decide to forgive the husband/wife who committed the unfaithfulness, then that would definitely be more honoring to God. However, if because the pain was so great they could not bear it, and the person committing adultery is bent on continuing in their sin, then divorce is permissible, although it not God's best. Havig said that, God does allow for divorce in such an instance, and it would not constitute that the person hurt by the infidelity, (should they choose to divorce) that they be living in adultery if they choose to marry after the divorce.

    However, yes, if a person who is faithfully married just decides to break the marriage for anything other than marital unfaithfulness, or lets say physical harm coming from physical abuse, or attempted murder, then yes, that person would be in adultery, and would be causing whomever they marry to be in adultery as well. But, if that person comes to a genuine repentance, then God can change their hearts ad make them a new person, and heal what was broken. Look at King David in the Old Testament. I just thought I'd clarify a little for you since it seems to me that nothing that is said on this site that is biblical truth is being taken in context by yourself as well as others who are constantly trying to disprove the Bible. No matter what we say, you will always have a pet peeve. I can only pray for you, that God himself will open the eyes of your heart.

  • JC »
    Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:37 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    To ifeelfine72:

    Dear one, I never made the claim to know everything in the Bible. If I did, I would be a liar, and your judgement would be correct. But, I do know that He is God. And I do know that He is Holy. And I do know that if He says it, I can trust it.

    You said "You clearly don't get it. Your faith isn't in God - its in a book.".

    Beloved, They are one in the same. John, one who witnessed much, wrote of this, many times. His sole purpose for writing these things was to show that Jesus is who He claimed to be. His first book starts out with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    In Revelation, John wrote, "He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God."

    Dear one, one cannot separate that which cannot be separated. If one tries, one ends up with a god made in their image. This is a very dangerous path, and one that is unfortunately used often.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:38 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    ifeelfine72,

    Your right. Divorce is a sin, but just like homosexuality, it is a forgivable sin.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    jc4me - you forgot divorce. That is mentioned a heck of a lot more than homosexuality in the Bible. It's funny how everyone here seems to give that one a free pass - talk about being "polically relevent for today's culture."

    According to the Bible, anyone who gets remarried after having gone through a divorce is living in a constant state of adultry. Funny how no one wants to address that but is certainly interested in chastising those queers! What a bunch of phony hypocrites you are.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:46 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Only the Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can cleanse us of all unrighteousness and filthy sin - this does include many other things, but as it pertains to this article - adultery, fornication, and yes, homosexuality. Too many in today's church want to cover up sin, and be politically relevent to today's "culture". They water-down the Wrod of God, and twist it to make it seem more "pleasant" to the ears. Many people want to hear what feesds their ego; they don;t want to hear the truth that transforms lives for their own good and for God's pleasure.

    The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us are without sin. The Good News is that Jesus Christ became God in the flesh for us! He decended from his exalted heavenly place, and willfully shed His Prescious Blood and gave up His life so that we may have a relationship with God the Father our Creator.

    We need to first acknowledge that we are all sinners; we need to repent - that is to literally and willfully choose to turn away from our old life of living in sins; we need to ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior of our lives (this means we hand over our free will to Him, and choose toi obey His commands and teachings). We must put our total trust and confidence ino Him, and then follow Him.

    The question is, have we trully repented, and turned back from our sin. That is to say, if we're willfully, and rebelliously living in sin, have we made a conscious choice to turn from that sin, die to ourselves, pick up our crosses daily and follow Christ?

    None of these sins are unpardonable, but God has given us a free choice. We must choose this day whom we will serve. Are we going to choose to gratify our flesh and live in sin, or are we going to die to ourselves, and choose to follow Christ Jesus?

    Whoever doesn't truly know Christ on this site, please give your life to him. You will not regret it. He will never bring up your past. We all have pasts, but God can make you a new person, and as you continue to seek after Him and as you surrender your life to Him, He will continue to mold you and make you into the vessel of honor He wants you to be. I hope this touches someone out there, and may the Lord turn your heart to repentance. God Bless You.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    JC - you are a hypocrite if you claim to understand everything in the Bible. You are just flat out wrong. And a hypocrite. It's not black and white, it is a very nuanced book and to pretend that it is black and white just takes faith right out of the equation. You clearly don't get it. Your faith isn't in God - its in a book.

    JC - you are so condescending. How sad for you.

  • JC »
    Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:20 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    To ifeelfine72:

    You said: "All I can say is there are a lot of perspectives on God's Truth - I know we can't all be right but I would hope we're not all wrong. And I would hope that God is more loving than many of the posts on this blog. It sometimes seems like people are trying to make God in their image rather than the other way around."

    You also said earlier: "I know way too many gay people and every single one of them tells me that they knew they were gay from a very young age. That means God made them that way - and if God made them that way, then it must be right. Because we are all born without sin and God doesn't screw up - unlike everyone else."


    On the first point: Dear one, it is unfortunate too many people are prone to judgement to quick. We are all guilty of that sin from time to time. It is also unfortunate that God's word is given without love.

    This still doesn't change the fact that this behavior is wrong. Consider this, you said "I know we can't all be right but I would hope we're not all wrong." Dear one, right and wrong are in God's book. You don't have to hope, you can see what is right and wrong. Do you take your stand with the Word of God, or your gut feelings? Do you take your stand for on what was written before creation, or what you hope? There is only one truth, there cannot be more. As for me, I will go with what is written. Jesus did. Remember the forty days in the wilderness?


    On the second point: You said "Because we are all born without sin..." Dear one, you claim to be a Christian, but you know not the word. For it is written in Romans, chapter 3, starting at verse 21:

    21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


    Dear one, please stop listening to others. Look for yourself. There can only be one truth.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:13 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    The truth is: sodomy is a SIN, no matter how you look at it. If that offends you, then Christianity is certainly not for you. The bible is unchangable, even in this modern perverted world we live in.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    15 or 20 years ago, one person told me I should pray as hard as I can to turn this person straight or bring them to the Lord. I prayed and cried a lot and nothing changed. I came back to the church 5 or 6 years ago and am in an accepting congregation that doesn't have a condescending attitude toward gay people.

    All I can say is there are a lot of perspectives on God's Truth - I know we can't all be right but I would hope we're not all wrong. And I would hope that God is more loving than many of the posts on this blog. It sometimes seems like people are trying to make God in their image rather than the other way around.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Listen, I'm not gay, but the arrogance, the looking down the nose, the hypocritical-ness of it all drove me from the church a long time ago because family members that I love are. It was only recently that I came to terms with it. I've seen comments from people on this blog that say gay people cannot be Christians - that is pure bunk! That is no more true then remarried people cannot be Christians. I don't know what God wants for sure - all I can do is be guided by the same Book as the rest of us. My interpretation of it is just different from yours (there is no such thing as "Bible-Believing" - it is a ridiculous made up term by folks who think they have all the answers and if you're not struggling with your faith then it probably isn't very real but I digress). I pray on it all the time. And it doesn't help, nor is it the least bit Christian to snub your nose at it.

    One thing, I am sure of is that when those folks die, God is going to ask them why they treated the least of his people so poorly. Anyway, that is where I am coming from.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    savedbygrace: Yes, exactly. Love does not equal sex, now you are starting to get it. gay people want to love who they want to love. The relationship doesn't necessarily have to do with sex anymore than your relationship with your wife (if you're a male and are married to a woman).

    As for knowing before puberty, every gay person I know said they knew from a very young age - my family members who are gay, said he knew when he was 5 years old he was gay. It makes sense - even though I didn't understand, I knew from a very young age that I liked girls. You probably did too.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    II Samuel 1:26 “I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.”

    In this passage, David has just heard the news of Saul and Jonathan’s death.
    He refers to Jonathan as “his brother”. Not his lover---HIS BROTHER.

    Love DOES NOT = sex

    Just ask biological brothers or sisters who are very close to each other how much they love their brother or sister. The love that my Mother has shown me has surpassed the love of all earthly love. I'm sure there are a multitude of people who can say that no one (except God) has loved them more than their Mother.

    You say “they knew they were gay from a very young age” Was it before puberty?

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    That is ridiculous - you mean to tell me if one of your buddies said that he has greater love for another man than any woman, you wouldn't think him gay? You are interpreting it according to your prejudices - not taking common sense into it at all. I just know you're wrong about this.

    I know way too many gay people and every single one of them tells me that they knew they were gay from a very young age. That means God made them that way - and if God made them that way, then it must be right. Because we are all born without sin and God doesn't screw up - unlike everyone else.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:13 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    To all Christians:
    I am not discouraged & I encourage all of you not to become discouraged. Truly, we are living in the last generation where the love of many has grown cold. Yet, I have seen comments from those that I know are burning with passion for our Lord. Look up, for your redemption draws nigh. My prayer this past year has been for God to stir His children and to pour His Spirit upon those who have called upon Him. Remember, to put on the whole armour of God--helmet of salvation, shield of faith, breastplate of righteousness, sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God, the belt of Truth, and our feet shod with the preparation of the Gospel of peace. Eph 6:13 “...and, having done all, to stand”.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:56 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    ifeelfine72
    *The Bible is not just ‘a book’. The Holy Bible is the Word of God. 2 Peter 1:21 “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy me of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
    *As far as you calling me a “hypocrite” and “giving Christianity a bad name”...You’re erroneous name-calling puts me in the same category of others who stand and have stood on the Word of God. I Peter 4:14 “If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the Spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.”
    *No, I am not a homosexual and I have never been one. I’m not commenting on other sins, because the topic of this article is ‘Bush to Veto Gay Employment Bill’.
    *Regarding your comment concerning II Samuel 1:26:
    This is David lament for his dear friend Jonathan, son of Saul, upon learning of his death. The story of David and Jonathan is found in I Samuel 18, 19, 20, 23 and here in II Samuel 1:26. Jonathan first met David right after David had killed Goliath. Immediately he felt a close bond or kindred spirit with David. He understood that David had been anointed to be the next king of Israel instead of himself. However, instead of jealously he did everything within his power to protect his friend. Eventually David was given Jonathan's sister in marriage but that same bond of friendship and protection was not found with her. Truly, Jonathan's friendship, his love, surpassed that of David's wives.
    David was married and had children as well as Jonathan. Never in the story of their friendship is there any suggestion that it ever involved any kind of physical relationship between the two. To make that assumption would be an argument from silence and impossible to be proven. What David and Jonathan had was a very close friendship that very few people ever experience. Having a close male friend is not wrong at all, but the story of David and Jonathan in the Bible does not address the issue of homosexuality. That would be something we impose upon the text. Also the fact that both married women and had children rules out any kind of a monogamous relationship between the two of them.

  • JC »
    Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To Savedbygrace:

    I pray that God will continue to richly bless you!

    Thank you for your kind words, but as you, I am just the messenger. We as Christians must stand on the Word of God, it is truth. If we stand on this, we will never fail as truth will never cease to exist and will not crumble.

    And, as you know, besides scripture, we must always be generous with His love. He pours it on us, and we in turn must pour it on others. A lot of people have had Bible versus thrown at them their entire lives, and have grown sick of hearing about it. But love will break through this armor, love will reach them, and love will cover a multitude of sin, as it is written. This is why this is the greatest commandment of all, in that we love one another as He has loved us. For there is no greater love than one who gives his life for another. And Jesus gave His life for us. We can bank on His love. We have access to His love. He pours it on us, and we are not to bury His talents.

    Dear one, keep running the race and fighting the good fight. One day you and I will stand on the Sea of Glass and worship Him together, and forever!! Amen.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Satan does not like the WORD of God either, he likes us to try to fight our battles without the Scriptures,he knows the VICTORY is in Christ, that is why we are to put on the ARMOR OF GOD and not even try to do it within ourselves, we have the VICTORY through Christ.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    savedbygrace

    Thankful for Christians like you who know how to use the scripture, that is how we are supposed to respond,with the word of God, not just from our own thoughts. People want to modify our Lord to suit their way of life, so therefore distort the WORD of GOD. Thank you for
    inspiration and dedication

  • JC »
    Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:41 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    To Ifeelfine72:

    How many types of homosexuality are there? Dear one, wrong is wrong. Something is either dead or it's not. It can't be half dead, or three quarters dead. It's either dead or it isn't.

    Same thing here. Just because you are not convinced something isn't wrong, doesn't make it right.

    Dear one, can't you see, this is the lie of the dark one. He has lied to you convincingly enough and now you believe it, and are now wondering what is truth.

    The lie that he told Eve, even if you don't believe Eve existed, is still happening today. In the Garden, the dark one asked Eve, "Did God really say...". And now, I'm hearing that same from you, "Did God really say homosexuality is wrong"., or "I don't believe that this particular type of homosexuality is wrong". Dear one, this is a lie.

    There is only one truth, there cannot be more than one as this is impossible.

    If you don't believe in Him, what are you doing here? And if you do believe in Him, than you must take Him at His word. If you do believe that He is God, then that would lead one to think that you possibly also believe that He knows what is best for us as well.

    As far as 2nd Samuel 1:26, you are reading way more into it than what it really there. You cannot use truth to justify behavior that is contrary to the truth. You will stumble everytime, as you have here.

    If you had known the story of what you are quoting, instead of just quoting things that somebody else has told you about, you would have known this. For, Jonathan was David's best and most trusted friend. Saul, the king at the time, did not like David and was afraid of Him. In fact, Saul attempted to have David killed more than once. But, it was Jonathan who told him of these plots which allowed David time to leave the area, and consequently was not killed. These were friends that were intimate with each other, but only on an emotional and "best-friend" level. I have friends that I have that are far closer than other friends could ever hope to be. Jonathan was one of those friends. But to imply that they were homosexual based on this one verse, tells me that you actually know nothing of David or Jonathan, and nothing of the Bible.

    Dear one, once again, please don't take other's word for this. Look it up yourself. Look at it yourself. This is too important.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The Watch:

    God Bless you.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:26 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    David and Jonathan were CLOSE FRIENDS, BROTHERLY LOVE. I know of many people who trust and love someone of the same sex as themselves and would say the exact same thing David said of Jonathan, can you not understand that some relationships of the same sex are better than some of the opposite sex????? Does that make them homosexual???? NO it does not.
    Whomever wants to live this way , Fine, but stop twisting the WORD OF GOD and modifying Him to suit you , we all could do that, but we need to acknowledge ALL the sins in our lives , and not just homosexuality, BUT ALL SIN , and strive to live the life God commands.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    David and Jonathan were CLOSE FRIENDS, BROTHERLY LOVE. I know of many people who trust and love someone of the same sex as themselves and would say the exact same thing David said of Jonathan, can you not understand that some relationships of the same sex are better than some of the same sex????? Does that make them homosexual???? NO it does not.
    Whomever wants to live this way , Fine, but stop twisting the WORD OF GOD and modifying Him to suit you , we all could do that, but we need to acknowledge ALL the sins in our lives , and not just homosexuality, BUT ALL SIN , and strive to live the life God commands.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    savedbygrace: You take the faith out of faith by putting all of it not in God and His Son but in a book. You pick and choose the parts you want just like everyone else, you are a hypocrite. So stop quoting the Bible and think for yourself. You give Christianity a bad name. . . . I'm sure you'll just follow it up with a verse or passage from the Bible as it seems as though you are incapable of actual thought. Just come out and say you find homosexuality disgusting, you're not gay, never were, never will be and its gross. God finds lots of things disgusting and I don't see you comment on those things. And I'm not convinced he finds homosexuality disgusting - just the type of homosexuality listed in those passages. What about the type of homosexual love on II Samuel 1:26? Clearly He seems pretty in favor of it there. Apperently God just doesn't like homosexuality where one person is violating another - that should be a no brainer for us all.

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Savedbygrace,

    Beloved, I speak to you from our Savior's words because I know that you will understand;

    "15 For this people's heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
    and turn, and I would heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 1 7For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. " (Matthew 13:15-17)

    Bless you for your wisdom in the word and the love for which you share it but I am afraid you are casting pearls. Remember Matthew 7:6.

    The Watch

  • Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    Savedbygrace : Quit quoting a book to justify your thoughts. THINK. I don't believe that book. I don't believe in your (or any other) gods. Do you have any particular thoughts of your own on the matter? Can you put together your own coherent argument or do you just quote books all the time?

  • Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:02 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    torus:
    Regarding your comment, “Christianity will change just like it has in the past; it's changed to make room for reality for hundreds of years.”

    Psalms 102:26: They shall perish, but Thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:”
    “And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind” (1 Samuel 15:29).
    12 But Thou, O LORD dost abide forever; And Thy name to all generations. . . 25 Of old Thou didst found the earth; And the heavens are the work of Thy hands. 26 Even they will perish, but Thou dost endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing Thou wilt change them, and they will be changed. 27 But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end. 28 The children of Thy servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before Thee” (Psalm 102:12, 25-28)

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

  • Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    torus:
    Regarding your comment, “Christianity will change just like it has in the past; it's changed to make room for reality for hundreds of years.”

    Psalms 102:26: They shall perish, but Thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:”
    “And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind” (1 Samuel 15:29).
    12 But Thou, O LORD dost abide forever; And Thy name to all generations. . . 25 Of old Thou didst found the earth; And the heavens are the work of Thy hands. 26 Even they will perish, but Thou dost endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing Thou wilt change them, and they will be changed. 27 But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end. 28 The children of Thy servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before Thee” (Psalm 102:12, 25-28)

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

  • Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ifeelfine72
    Regarding your comment: “because He made you this way”

    Isaiah 5:20, 21 “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight.”

  • Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:22 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Regarding the comment that Christians are judging:

    Matthew 12:33 “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is know by his fruit.”

    I Corinthians 6:2 “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are y unworthy to judge the smallest matters?”

  • Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    rcinsocial: “Why would he teach me that I am wrong so much to a point where I fought fought fought and prayed prayed prayed to be strait to a point where I almost took my life out of defeat?”

    Satan is lying to you. John 8:32 “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Jesus is not condemning you...He is calling you. Luke 5:32 “I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Homosexuality is a sin, but “...all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23) and “There is none righteous...” (Rom. 3:10). James 2:10 “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

    There is no one that can ‘free’ themselves from the bondage of sin. God is the one that sets us free. John 8:36 “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
    Have faith in God. I Corinthians 2:5 “That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

    God loves you. Jesus gave Himself for us all “...while we were yet sinners” (Rom. 5:8). You are precious in His sight. Do not despair. “Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled.” I will be praying for you. Try to find Christians that believe in the power of God. There is strength in unity. James 5:26 “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” A great place to request prayer is http://www.internationalprayercenter.org/index.cfm
    Sometimes there are strongholds in a person’s life where they need others for support. Some excellent resources concerning breaking bondages are through the Freedom in Christ Ministries < www.ficm.org/ >

  • Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    torus: “dozens of species have members which desire to be with those of their own sex”

    Regarding your use of the behavior of brute beasts as an example of what is ‘natural’ for a human being:

    Jude 1:8-10 “Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, THE LORD REBUKE THEE. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. “

    Regarding your comment “god would have to convince me somehow”.

    Mark 8:ll “And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with Him, seeking of Him a sign from heaven, tempting Him. And He sighed deeply in His spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.”

    Deuteronomy 6:16 “Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God...”

  • Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:51 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    To the person below proclaiming "pride" for for being a practitioner of sodomy, my sympathies and prayers go out to you.

  • Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    HI I AM GAY AND PROUD OF IT!!

  • Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    I have read thru this entire post and found that for some reason everyone thinks that christians are perfect, no we are not.. We all are sinners and fall short of the glory of god and only thru Jesus can we be saved. Sin is sin, whether it is homosexuality, adultery or any act that goes against God, we have all done it but only thru Jesus can we be forgive and only with Jesus can we change from our sin, without Jesus in our life there is no possibility of changing...

  • Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:43 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    To IFeelFine:

    Did you actually read what Superbob wrote or just make it up as you went along, no where in his comment did he say anything about homosexuals couldn't be christians. This is what he wrote, "All of us christians argueing with them is not going to help them if they are not convicted that what they do is wrong all we can do is tell them the good news which is our calling as christians just as its their calling as humans to want to be treated equal and we need to be there to help anyone who wishes to become a christian when they want us to show them the way we need to be there for them if they are not under conviction then all we are going to do is argue with each other. so lets pray for them and when THEY are ready then lets be ready with open arms to welcome them as our brothers and sisters through Christ"

    Maybe you aught to read the bible and what God Says before you start creating your own God...

  • Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    JC - then divorcees who remarry cannot be Christians either. By your definition - that is what they are. I cannot believe anyone would say something so outlandish as to say that homosexuals cannot be Christian. You have revealed yourself for what you are - a hypocrite and I will pray for your soul.

  • JC »
    Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:38 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    To Torus:

    And you've just proven mine. Human understanding.

    Dear one, are you sure you still want to take that chance? Think this thoroughly through. Don't take anybody elses word for it. Look for yourself, examine for yourself, seek for yourself. For we are responsible for no other action but our own. We are responsible for where we spend eternity.

    Dear one, the Bible is not the end of wisdom, it is the beginning of wisdom. Death is not the end, it is just a doorway. Please be sure.

  • Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    JC:

    You've proven my point.

    As regards your closing questions, look up "Pascal's Wager". Wikipedia has a nice summary of the logical criticisms.

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