WASHINGTON – The White House indicated Tuesday that the president would veto a bill seeking to grant greater rights to homosexuals in the workplace if Congress passed it this week.
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(Photo: AP Images / Pablo Martinez Monsivais)President Bush waves after speaking at National Defense University's Distinguished Lecture Program during his visit to Eisenhower Hall Baruch Auditorium at Fort McNair in Washington, Tuesday, Oct. 23, 2007.
The Executive Office of the President issued a statement of administration policy expressing that the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, H.R. 3685, raises concerns on constitutional and policy grounds, and that his senior advisors would recommend President George W. Bush to veto the bill.
Concerned Women for America, a conservative public policy women’s organization, applauded the White House for signaling a likely veto of ENDA.
“This dangerous bill would pit the government directly against the free exercise of religion, a situation which is unconstitutional on its face,” said Matt Barber, CWA’s policy director for Cultural Issues.
“Members of Congress should join the president and exercise their sworn duty to defend the U.S. Constitution by voting ‘no’ on ENDA,” he added.
ENDA seeks to add sexual orientation to the list of federally protected classes – which includes race, color, religion, sex and national origin – that prohibits job discrimination.
Colin A. Hanna, founder and president of the conservative grassroots group Let Freedom Ring, pointed out that while the current legislation had some provisions exempting churches it would apply to Christian ministries and pro-family groups who are against the homosexual lifestyle.
An organization “whose entire focus” and “reason for being” is to promote a particular social view based on scripture would be forced to hire a person with a “diametrically opposing” view on the issue, Hanna contends.
“That is about as upside-down and about as perverted a reading as what the first amendment is about as I can imagine,” Hanna said at an ENDA press conference on Friday.
The White House agrees that the legislation is “inconsistent” with the right to free exercise of religion. It also highlighted that the bill’s wording is “imprecise” and subjective to interpretation that would make enforcement “extremely difficult,” such as establishing liability for “perceived” sexual orientation, or “association” with individuals of a particular sexual orientation.
“If passed, H.R. 3685 is virtually certain to encourage burdensome litigation beyond the cases that the bill is intended to reach,” the White House warned.
Some have raised questions on how human resource managers would apply the bill in the real world. They emphasized that someone can easily be identified as black, female or of a particular religion, but there is no way to identify someone’s sexual orientation besides a confession by the individual.
Under the legislation, homosexuals could sue their employer for firing them by claiming they were released due to their sexual orientation when their employer fired them because of poor job performance. It would be difficult for human resource managers to distinguish if a person was fired because of their poor performance or for their sexual identity.
“It (ENDA) is not needed. All that is needed is men and women to decide who they are and go to work everyday and do their job,” stated the Rev. Rick Scarborough who heads Vision America – a grassroots movement to restore Christian values in society.
Alliance Defense Fund president and general counsel Alan Sears thanked the White House for threatening to veto the “dangerous” and “blatantly unconstitutional” ENDA bill.
“We’re very thankful that the White House has recognized these constitutional issues and has advised the president to veto this legislation if it reaches his desk,” he said.
The U.S. House of Representatives is expected to debate and vote on H.R. 3685 as early as Wednesday.
On the Web: Petition against Hate Crimes and ENDA Bills at FocusPetitions.org.
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Ummmm they just added that into King James. Yeah I tend not to trust that bible brand. Changes too much with politics. I find that it also changes things around and adds things in that were never in the bible to begin with such as they added homosexuals to Corinthians. I am afraid that I will have to stick to bibles with the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur (No Protestant bibles for me either). And yes, Jc4me, your perceptions of the bible ARE biased (even for a King James, which basically does all the bias itself :P). Anyone with ONE cent's worth of discernment could see that. However I do agree that this law should not be expanded to homosexuals. Not only could anyone claim that they were homosexual, but it is much trickier to fire a homosexual under this law because if you are Christian and fire someone who claims to be a homosexual... you are screwed.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
Amen and Amen Prophet.
Yes, jc4me, its just a short time before even speaking out against such things as homosexuality, transgenderism, tranasexualism will be considered a hate crime. The grip is slowly closing around Christianity's neck. But be joyful, or our blessed hope comes soon!
"By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greate than he who is in the world." First John 4:3-4
Peter 4
1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us[a] in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime[b] in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
ifeelfine,
"You're making things up and it isn't Biblically based at all. Now you're interpreting the Word according to your biases and beliefs."
i am not interpreting the Bible based on biased viewes. Anyone with 2 cents of discernment would tell you that if a woman is being threatened to be killed or is being physically abused should run from her husband. God gives us common sense, obviously, you're not using yours. in addition, just because you don't agree with my answer, and with the bilbical basis for divorce if adultery is committed doesn't make it biblically unsound. Read my answer in context, and spin what I have written to suite your being "right about it". Search the scriptures for yourself, don't take my answer for it, or anyones on this site. furthermore, Canada is left leaning, and socialist in many ways. By the way, I never mentioned that Jesus was Socialist, or Capitalist, and neither do I believe he was one or the other. He just did everything according to God's Will, and did not try to twist it. Getting back to the origination of the thread which you tried to avoid, and talk your way out of by bringing in the question on divorce not just on this post, but others - homosexuality, divorce, adultery, and fornications are sins, whether you agree with it or not. they are also forgovable to those who repent. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but if you asked me, i gave you my response. rather than bickering over your "opinion" vs my "opinion" read the Word of God in it's entirety without taking out the parts you don't like.
jc4me - there may be a clause for adultry but not for violence or abuse. Also, the Bible doesn't say anything about the offended party not committing adultry if they remarry. You're making things up and it isn't Biblically based at all. Now you're interpreting the Word according to your biases and beliefs.
By the way, to call Canada "leftist" or "socialist" is absolutely ridiculous and isn't based in reality at all. What about making sure the sick are properly cared for makes a country socialist? If that makes a country socialist then Jesus was a socialist. For the record I don't think Jesus was a socialist but lets just say that he leaned more toward socialism than toward capitalism.
Telling people the whole thruth of God's Word is not hate as some would say on this blog. We need to get back to teaching the Word expositorilly, book by book, chapter by chapter, precept upon precept, line by line. There's too much "topical" sermons being preached which don't ground people in the Word.
Romans 1:16-20
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:21-25
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 1: 26-32
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Continued Scripture verses from God's Word:
Proponents of hate crimes legislation would just love to have pastor's incarcerated for preaching the Word of God on this matter. It's happening in Liberal/socialist Canada already.
I feel fine 72, I will try to lovingly respond to you. You're right, divorce is a sin, but it is forgivable just like the other's I listed. I also left out liars, cheaters, murderers, backbiters, and the list goes on, but since the blog is related to homosexuality, I obviously am going to respond to that which pertains to what the article is about. Do you read the Word of God? I would have to say that your quote: is only half true: "According to the Bible, anyone who gets remarried after having gone through a divorce is living in a constant state of adultry. Funny how no one wants to address that but is certainly interested in chastising those queers! What a bunch of phony hypocrites you are. "
The rest of the story that you had ommitted (possibly in error I presume) is that Jesus according to the Gospels in the Bible only allows for divorce when there is marital unfaithfulness (ie adultery) although, God's best is always reconciliation. So if a person did decide to forgive the husband/wife who committed the unfaithfulness, then that would definitely be more honoring to God. However, if because the pain was so great they could not bear it, and the person committing adultery is bent on continuing in their sin, then divorce is permissible, although it not God's best. Havig said that, God does allow for divorce in such an instance, and it would not constitute that the person hurt by the infidelity, (should they choose to divorce) that they be living in adultery if they choose to marry after the divorce.
However, yes, if a person who is faithfully married just decides to break the marriage for anything other than marital unfaithfulness, or lets say physical harm coming from physical abuse, or attempted murder, then yes, that person would be in adultery, and would be causing whomever they marry to be in adultery as well. But, if that person comes to a genuine repentance, then God can change their hearts ad make them a new person, and heal what was broken. Look at King David in the Old Testament. I just thought I'd clarify a little for you since it seems to me that nothing that is said on this site that is biblical truth is being taken in context by yourself as well as others who are constantly trying to disprove the Bible. No matter what we say, you will always have a pet peeve. I can only pray for you, that God himself will open the eyes of your heart.
To ifeelfine72:
Dear one, I never made the claim to know everything in the Bible. If I did, I would be a liar, and your judgement would be correct. But, I do know that He is God. And I do know that He is Holy. And I do know that if He says it, I can trust it.
You said "You clearly don't get it. Your faith isn't in God - its in a book.".
Beloved, They are one in the same. John, one who witnessed much, wrote of this, many times. His sole purpose for writing these things was to show that Jesus is who He claimed to be. His first book starts out with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
In Revelation, John wrote, "He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God."
Dear one, one cannot separate that which cannot be separated. If one tries, one ends up with a god made in their image. This is a very dangerous path, and one that is unfortunately used often.
ifeelfine72,
Your right. Divorce is a sin, but just like homosexuality, it is a forgivable sin.
jc4me - you forgot divorce. That is mentioned a heck of a lot more than homosexuality in the Bible. It's funny how everyone here seems to give that one a free pass - talk about being "polically relevent for today's culture."
According to the Bible, anyone who gets remarried after having gone through a divorce is living in a constant state of adultry. Funny how no one wants to address that but is certainly interested in chastising those queers! What a bunch of phony hypocrites you are.
Only the Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can cleanse us of all unrighteousness and filthy sin - this does include many other things, but as it pertains to this article - adultery, fornication, and yes, homosexuality. Too many in today's church want to cover up sin, and be politically relevent to today's "culture". They water-down the Wrod of God, and twist it to make it seem more "pleasant" to the ears. Many people want to hear what feesds their ego; they don;t want to hear the truth that transforms lives for their own good and for God's pleasure.
The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us are without sin. The Good News is that Jesus Christ became God in the flesh for us! He decended from his exalted heavenly place, and willfully shed His Prescious Blood and gave up His life so that we may have a relationship with God the Father our Creator.
We need to first acknowledge that we are all sinners; we need to repent - that is to literally and willfully choose to turn away from our old life of living in sins; we need to ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior of our lives (this means we hand over our free will to Him, and choose toi obey His commands and teachings). We must put our total trust and confidence ino Him, and then follow Him.
The question is, have we trully repented, and turned back from our sin. That is to say, if we're willfully, and rebelliously living in sin, have we made a conscious choice to turn from that sin, die to ourselves, pick up our crosses daily and follow Christ?
None of these sins are unpardonable, but God has given us a free choice. We must choose this day whom we will serve. Are we going to choose to gratify our flesh and live in sin, or are we going to die to ourselves, and choose to follow Christ Jesus?
Whoever doesn't truly know Christ on this site, please give your life to him. You will not regret it. He will never bring up your past. We all have pasts, but God can make you a new person, and as you continue to seek after Him and as you surrender your life to Him, He will continue to mold you and make you into the vessel of honor He wants you to be. I hope this touches someone out there, and may the Lord turn your heart to repentance. God Bless You.
JC - you are a hypocrite if you claim to understand everything in the Bible. You are just flat out wrong. And a hypocrite. It's not black and white, it is a very nuanced book and to pretend that it is black and white just takes faith right out of the equation. You clearly don't get it. Your faith isn't in God - its in a book.
JC - you are so condescending. How sad for you.
To ifeelfine72:
You said: "All I can say is there are a lot of perspectives on God's Truth - I know we can't all be right but I would hope we're not all wrong. And I would hope that God is more loving than many of the posts on this blog. It sometimes seems like people are trying to make God in their image rather than the other way around."
You also said earlier: "I know way too many gay people and every single one of them tells me that they knew they were gay from a very young age. That means God made them that way - and if God made them that way, then it must be right. Because we are all born without sin and God doesn't screw up - unlike everyone else."
On the first point: Dear one, it is unfortunate too many people are prone to judgement to quick. We are all guilty of that sin from time to time. It is also unfortunate that God's word is given without love.
This still doesn't change the fact that this behavior is wrong. Consider this, you said "I know we can't all be right but I would hope we're not all wrong." Dear one, right and wrong are in God's book. You don't have to hope, you can see what is right and wrong. Do you take your stand with the Word of God, or your gut feelings? Do you take your stand for on what was written before creation, or what you hope? There is only one truth, there cannot be more. As for me, I will go with what is written. Jesus did. Remember the forty days in the wilderness?
On the second point: You said "Because we are all born without sin..." Dear one, you claim to be a Christian, but you know not the word. For it is written in Romans, chapter 3, starting at verse 21:
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Dear one, please stop listening to others. Look for yourself. There can only be one truth.
The truth is: sodomy is a SIN, no matter how you look at it. If that offends you, then Christianity is certainly not for you. The bible is unchangable, even in this modern perverted world we live in.
15 or 20 years ago, one person told me I should pray as hard as I can to turn this person straight or bring them to the Lord. I prayed and cried a lot and nothing changed. I came back to the church 5 or 6 years ago and am in an accepting congregation that doesn't have a condescending attitude toward gay people.
All I can say is there are a lot of perspectives on God's Truth - I know we can't all be right but I would hope we're not all wrong. And I would hope that God is more loving than many of the posts on this blog. It sometimes seems like people are trying to make God in their image rather than the other way around.
Listen, I'm not gay, but the arrogance, the looking down the nose, the hypocritical-ness of it all drove me from the church a long time ago because family members that I love are. It was only recently that I came to terms with it. I've seen comments from people on this blog that say gay people cannot be Christians - that is pure bunk! That is no more true then remarried people cannot be Christians. I don't know what God wants for sure - all I can do is be guided by the same Book as the rest of us. My interpretation of it is just different from yours (there is no such thing as "Bible-Believing" - it is a ridiculous made up term by folks who think they have all the answers and if you're not struggling with your faith then it probably isn't very real but I digress). I pray on it all the time. And it doesn't help, nor is it the least bit Christian to snub your nose at it.
One thing, I am sure of is that when those folks die, God is going to ask them why they treated the least of his people so poorly. Anyway, that is where I am coming from.
savedbygrace: Yes, exactly. Love does not equal sex, now you are starting to get it. gay people want to love who they want to love. The relationship doesn't necessarily have to do with sex anymore than your relationship with your wife (if you're a male and are married to a woman).
As for knowing before puberty, every gay person I know said they knew from a very young age - my family members who are gay, said he knew when he was 5 years old he was gay. It makes sense - even though I didn't understand, I knew from a very young age that I liked girls. You probably did too.
II Samuel 1:26 “I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.”
In this passage, David has just heard the news of Saul and Jonathan’s death.
He refers to Jonathan as “his brother”. Not his lover---HIS BROTHER.
Love DOES NOT = sex
Just ask biological brothers or sisters who are very close to each other how much they love their brother or sister. The love that my Mother has shown me has surpassed the love of all earthly love. I'm sure there are a multitude of people who can say that no one (except God) has loved them more than their Mother.
You say “they knew they were gay from a very young age” Was it before puberty?
That is ridiculous - you mean to tell me if one of your buddies said that he has greater love for another man than any woman, you wouldn't think him gay? You are interpreting it according to your prejudices - not taking common sense into it at all. I just know you're wrong about this.
I know way too many gay people and every single one of them tells me that they knew they were gay from a very young age. That means God made them that way - and if God made them that way, then it must be right. Because we are all born without sin and God doesn't screw up - unlike everyone else.
To all Christians:
I am not discouraged & I encourage all of you not to become discouraged. Truly, we are living in the last generation where the love of many has grown cold. Yet, I have seen comments from those that I know are burning with passion for our Lord. Look up, for your redemption draws nigh. My prayer this past year has been for God to stir His children and to pour His Spirit upon those who have called upon Him. Remember, to put on the whole armour of God--helmet of salvation, shield of faith, breastplate of righteousness, sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God, the belt of Truth, and our feet shod with the preparation of the Gospel of peace. Eph 6:13 “...and, having done all, to stand”.
ifeelfine72
*The Bible is not just ‘a book’. The Holy Bible is the Word of God. 2 Peter 1:21 “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy me of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
*As far as you calling me a “hypocrite” and “giving Christianity a bad name”...You’re erroneous name-calling puts me in the same category of others who stand and have stood on the Word of God. I Peter 4:14 “If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the Spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.”
*No, I am not a homosexual and I have never been one. I’m not commenting on other sins, because the topic of this article is ‘Bush to Veto Gay Employment Bill’.
*Regarding your comment concerning II Samuel 1:26:
This is David lament for his dear friend Jonathan, son of Saul, upon learning of his death. The story of David and Jonathan is found in I Samuel 18, 19, 20, 23 and here in II Samuel 1:26. Jonathan first met David right after David had killed Goliath. Immediately he felt a close bond or kindred spirit with David. He understood that David had been anointed to be the next king of Israel instead of himself. However, instead of jealously he did everything within his power to protect his friend. Eventually David was given Jonathan's sister in marriage but that same bond of friendship and protection was not found with her. Truly, Jonathan's friendship, his love, surpassed that of David's wives.
David was married and had children as well as Jonathan. Never in the story of their friendship is there any suggestion that it ever involved any kind of physical relationship between the two. To make that assumption would be an argument from silence and impossible to be proven. What David and Jonathan had was a very close friendship that very few people ever experience. Having a close male friend is not wrong at all, but the story of David and Jonathan in the Bible does not address the issue of homosexuality. That would be something we impose upon the text. Also the fact that both married women and had children rules out any kind of a monogamous relationship between the two of them.
To Savedbygrace:
I pray that God will continue to richly bless you!
Thank you for your kind words, but as you, I am just the messenger. We as Christians must stand on the Word of God, it is truth. If we stand on this, we will never fail as truth will never cease to exist and will not crumble.
And, as you know, besides scripture, we must always be generous with His love. He pours it on us, and we in turn must pour it on others. A lot of people have had Bible versus thrown at them their entire lives, and have grown sick of hearing about it. But love will break through this armor, love will reach them, and love will cover a multitude of sin, as it is written. This is why this is the greatest commandment of all, in that we love one another as He has loved us. For there is no greater love than one who gives his life for another. And Jesus gave His life for us. We can bank on His love. We have access to His love. He pours it on us, and we are not to bury His talents.
Dear one, keep running the race and fighting the good fight. One day you and I will stand on the Sea of Glass and worship Him together, and forever!! Amen.
Satan does not like the WORD of God either, he likes us to try to fight our battles without the Scriptures,he knows the VICTORY is in Christ, that is why we are to put on the ARMOR OF GOD and not even try to do it within ourselves, we have the VICTORY through Christ.
savedbygrace
Thankful for Christians like you who know how to use the scripture, that is how we are supposed to respond,with the word of God, not just from our own thoughts. People want to modify our Lord to suit their way of life, so therefore distort the WORD of GOD. Thank you for
inspiration and dedication
To Ifeelfine72:
How many types of homosexuality are there? Dear one, wrong is wrong. Something is either dead or it's not. It can't be half dead, or three quarters dead. It's either dead or it isn't.
Same thing here. Just because you are not convinced something isn't wrong, doesn't make it right.
Dear one, can't you see, this is the lie of the dark one. He has lied to you convincingly enough and now you believe it, and are now wondering what is truth.
The lie that he told Eve, even if you don't believe Eve existed, is still happening today. In the Garden, the dark one asked Eve, "Did God really say...". And now, I'm hearing that same from you, "Did God really say homosexuality is wrong"., or "I don't believe that this particular type of homosexuality is wrong". Dear one, this is a lie.
There is only one truth, there cannot be more than one as this is impossible.
If you don't believe in Him, what are you doing here? And if you do believe in Him, than you must take Him at His word. If you do believe that He is God, then that would lead one to think that you possibly also believe that He knows what is best for us as well.
As far as 2nd Samuel 1:26, you are reading way more into it than what it really there. You cannot use truth to justify behavior that is contrary to the truth. You will stumble everytime, as you have here.
If you had known the story of what you are quoting, instead of just quoting things that somebody else has told you about, you would have known this. For, Jonathan was David's best and most trusted friend. Saul, the king at the time, did not like David and was afraid of Him. In fact, Saul attempted to have David killed more than once. But, it was Jonathan who told him of these plots which allowed David time to leave the area, and consequently was not killed. These were friends that were intimate with each other, but only on an emotional and "best-friend" level. I have friends that I have that are far closer than other friends could ever hope to be. Jonathan was one of those friends. But to imply that they were homosexual based on this one verse, tells me that you actually know nothing of David or Jonathan, and nothing of the Bible.
Dear one, once again, please don't take other's word for this. Look it up yourself. Look at it yourself. This is too important.
The Watch:
God Bless you.
David and Jonathan were CLOSE FRIENDS, BROTHERLY LOVE. I know of many people who trust and love someone of the same sex as themselves and would say the exact same thing David said of Jonathan, can you not understand that some relationships of the same sex are better than some of the opposite sex????? Does that make them homosexual???? NO it does not.
Whomever wants to live this way , Fine, but stop twisting the WORD OF GOD and modifying Him to suit you , we all could do that, but we need to acknowledge ALL the sins in our lives , and not just homosexuality, BUT ALL SIN , and strive to live the life God commands.
David and Jonathan were CLOSE FRIENDS, BROTHERLY LOVE. I know of many people who trust and love someone of the same sex as themselves and would say the exact same thing David said of Jonathan, can you not understand that some relationships of the same sex are better than some of the same sex????? Does that make them homosexual???? NO it does not.
Whomever wants to live this way , Fine, but stop twisting the WORD OF GOD and modifying Him to suit you , we all could do that, but we need to acknowledge ALL the sins in our lives , and not just homosexuality, BUT ALL SIN , and strive to live the life God commands.
savedbygrace: You take the faith out of faith by putting all of it not in God and His Son but in a book. You pick and choose the parts you want just like everyone else, you are a hypocrite. So stop quoting the Bible and think for yourself. You give Christianity a bad name. . . . I'm sure you'll just follow it up with a verse or passage from the Bible as it seems as though you are incapable of actual thought. Just come out and say you find homosexuality disgusting, you're not gay, never were, never will be and its gross. God finds lots of things disgusting and I don't see you comment on those things. And I'm not convinced he finds homosexuality disgusting - just the type of homosexuality listed in those passages. What about the type of homosexual love on II Samuel 1:26? Clearly He seems pretty in favor of it there. Apperently God just doesn't like homosexuality where one person is violating another - that should be a no brainer for us all.
Savedbygrace,
Beloved, I speak to you from our Savior's words because I know that you will understand;
"15 For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 1 7For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. " (Matthew 13:15-17)
Bless you for your wisdom in the word and the love for which you share it but I am afraid you are casting pearls. Remember Matthew 7:6.
The Watch
Savedbygrace : Quit quoting a book to justify your thoughts. THINK. I don't believe that book. I don't believe in your (or any other) gods. Do you have any particular thoughts of your own on the matter? Can you put together your own coherent argument or do you just quote books all the time?
torus:
Regarding your comment, “Christianity will change just like it has in the past; it's changed to make room for reality for hundreds of years.”
Psalms 102:26: They shall perish, but Thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:”
“And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind” (1 Samuel 15:29).
12 But Thou, O LORD dost abide forever; And Thy name to all generations. . . 25 Of old Thou didst found the earth; And the heavens are the work of Thy hands. 26 Even they will perish, but Thou dost endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing Thou wilt change them, and they will be changed. 27 But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end. 28 The children of Thy servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before Thee” (Psalm 102:12, 25-28)
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever (Hebrews 13:8).
torus:
Regarding your comment, “Christianity will change just like it has in the past; it's changed to make room for reality for hundreds of years.”
Psalms 102:26: They shall perish, but Thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:”
“And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind” (1 Samuel 15:29).
12 But Thou, O LORD dost abide forever; And Thy name to all generations. . . 25 Of old Thou didst found the earth; And the heavens are the work of Thy hands. 26 Even they will perish, but Thou dost endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing Thou wilt change them, and they will be changed. 27 But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end. 28 The children of Thy servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before Thee” (Psalm 102:12, 25-28)
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever (Hebrews 13:8).
ifeelfine72
Regarding your comment: “because He made you this way”
Isaiah 5:20, 21 “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight.”
Regarding the comment that Christians are judging:
Matthew 12:33 “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is know by his fruit.”
I Corinthians 6:2 “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are y unworthy to judge the smallest matters?”
rcinsocial: “Why would he teach me that I am wrong so much to a point where I fought fought fought and prayed prayed prayed to be strait to a point where I almost took my life out of defeat?”
Satan is lying to you. John 8:32 “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Jesus is not condemning you...He is calling you. Luke 5:32 “I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Homosexuality is a sin, but “...all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23) and “There is none righteous...” (Rom. 3:10). James 2:10 “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”
There is no one that can ‘free’ themselves from the bondage of sin. God is the one that sets us free. John 8:36 “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
Have faith in God. I Corinthians 2:5 “That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
God loves you. Jesus gave Himself for us all “...while we were yet sinners” (Rom. 5:8). You are precious in His sight. Do not despair. “Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled.” I will be praying for you. Try to find Christians that believe in the power of God. There is strength in unity. James 5:26 “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” A great place to request prayer is http://www.internationalprayercenter.org/index.cfm
Sometimes there are strongholds in a person’s life where they need others for support. Some excellent resources concerning breaking bondages are through the Freedom in Christ Ministries < www.ficm.org/ >
torus: “dozens of species have members which desire to be with those of their own sex”
Regarding your use of the behavior of brute beasts as an example of what is ‘natural’ for a human being:
Jude 1:8-10 “Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, THE LORD REBUKE THEE. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. “
Regarding your comment “god would have to convince me somehow”.
Mark 8:ll “And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with Him, seeking of Him a sign from heaven, tempting Him. And He sighed deeply in His spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.”
Deuteronomy 6:16 “Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God...”
To the person below proclaiming "pride" for for being a practitioner of sodomy, my sympathies and prayers go out to you.
HI I AM GAY AND PROUD OF IT!!
I have read thru this entire post and found that for some reason everyone thinks that christians are perfect, no we are not.. We all are sinners and fall short of the glory of god and only thru Jesus can we be saved. Sin is sin, whether it is homosexuality, adultery or any act that goes against God, we have all done it but only thru Jesus can we be forgive and only with Jesus can we change from our sin, without Jesus in our life there is no possibility of changing...
To IFeelFine:
Did you actually read what Superbob wrote or just make it up as you went along, no where in his comment did he say anything about homosexuals couldn't be christians. This is what he wrote, "All of us christians argueing with them is not going to help them if they are not convicted that what they do is wrong all we can do is tell them the good news which is our calling as christians just as its their calling as humans to want to be treated equal and we need to be there to help anyone who wishes to become a christian when they want us to show them the way we need to be there for them if they are not under conviction then all we are going to do is argue with each other. so lets pray for them and when THEY are ready then lets be ready with open arms to welcome them as our brothers and sisters through Christ"
Maybe you aught to read the bible and what God Says before you start creating your own God...
JC - then divorcees who remarry cannot be Christians either. By your definition - that is what they are. I cannot believe anyone would say something so outlandish as to say that homosexuals cannot be Christian. You have revealed yourself for what you are - a hypocrite and I will pray for your soul.
To Torus:
And you've just proven mine. Human understanding.
Dear one, are you sure you still want to take that chance? Think this thoroughly through. Don't take anybody elses word for it. Look for yourself, examine for yourself, seek for yourself. For we are responsible for no other action but our own. We are responsible for where we spend eternity.
Dear one, the Bible is not the end of wisdom, it is the beginning of wisdom. Death is not the end, it is just a doorway. Please be sure.
JC:
You've proven my point.
As regards your closing questions, look up "Pascal's Wager". Wikipedia has a nice summary of the logical criticisms.
Dear one, I did not come to my current position by reasoning. I came to this position because God made Himself real to me. All one has to do is ask. It really is that simple. He wants to a have a one on one relationship with people, he will not make this difficult.
Philosophy, Metaphysics, Algebra, Archeology, etc., etc. These are all taught by humans are they not? Of course. Then this would lead one to a logical position that this is also taught with human understanding, is that not also correct?
Yet with human understanding, can we make a flower? Can we breathe life into something? Do we have the power of creation? Can we save somebody who is terminally ill? Can we restore sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf?
Scientists can only work with what is given to them to work with. Their conclusions may indeed be fact, but it still doesn't give a full picture, as it is all they have to work with. Anything else, would most definitely be rejected by the rest of the scientific community.
God's thinking is much higher than ours. His ways are much higher than ours.
Dear one, don't rely on what others tell you. Seek this for yourself. If you ask, sincerely, God will reveal Himself to you. Unfortunately, some people wait around for parlor tricks to happen. God isn't in the parlor trick business, but He is in the salvation business. Seek and you shall find. You've heard it a thousand times in your own lifetime I'm sure, now is the time to apply it. Look for yourself. If I'm wrong, what do you have to lose? But there is also an equal and logical chance that I am also right. Are you willing to take that risk?
There's an excellent saying, I'm not sure who by and I paraphrase: You can't use reason to get a man out of a position he didn't get into the same way.
This stands for most of you scripture-quoting kids. You wield lightweight metaphysical arguments (because you feel you ought to or perhaps somebody told you they were good?) which could be trounced by anybody who'd taken Philosophy 101 in college. When challenged you simply refuse to follow-up. Occasionally you yell "Troll".
None of you got to your current position by reason any less or more than a Buddhist, Muslim, Jew or Jainist. You don't really want to argue, debate or even converse. You really just want other people to stop thinking and start praying to your own choice of god.
It's better for sure to be on the outside with the freedom to think and the freedom to question, the freedom to use reason in my daily quest for happiness and truth. I find it very sad that you seem unable to do the same.
To Ifeelfine72:
Dear one, there is only one truth, God's truth. There cannot be more than one. This is impossible.
God hates divorce, yes. It was not meant to be. But, we can be forgiven. The sins you mentioned in Malachi were forgiven on the Day of Atonement, after sacrificing an unblemished animal. Now, praise God, we have Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice. We have access anytime we need. We can be forgiven. There is also another word in the Bible called "repent". This means to cease the sin, and to abstain from doing it. This is pleasing to God, not offensive.
We cannot change what is offensive to God. Something is either right or wrong, black or white. Sin is something that is offensive to God, and He wants no part of it. We cannot change His view. If we attempt to change the truth, we end up with a false god, who is nothing but a fabrication of our imagination. He is what He is. One of the names He uses is "I Am", not "I can be", or "I might be if...", it is "I Am". We accept Him, or we reject Him.
So, to answer your question: True, there is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. However, there are Christians who were homosexuals.
Dear ones, we can be forgiven, and he so desires for us to seek Him and walk with Him. He will bless those who seek Him, and he won't turn away. But if you want to stay near, you have to abstain from what is offensive to Him. This is only logical.
So Superbob - Are you implying that gay people cannot be Christian? Is it because they are in a constant state of "sin?" I wonder, do you rail against divorced people as much as you do gay people? After all, divorce is talked about as an abomination in the Bible with more fervor than homosexuality - in fact Jesus actually talks about it himself - something you can't say about homosexuality (Malachi 2:14-16, Mark 10:9, 1 Cor. 7:10-11, Heb. 13:4 and the list goes on). And if you get remarried aren't you in a constant state of adultery? If you take the Bible literally, you would be in a constant state of adultery. And don't you think that the Bible is more concerned about divorce? And yet, for some reason, its "Gay Issues" that gets it's own subtab on Christian Post. Seems a little hypocritical.
but shoot im a hillbilly i wonder if i could get special rights that would be cool
All of us christians argueing with them is not going to help them if they are not convicted that what they do is wrong all we can do is tell them the good news which is our calling as christians just as its their calling as humans to want to be treated equal and we need to be there to help anyone who wishes to become a christian when they want us to show them the way we need to be there for them if they are not under conviction then all we are going to do is argue with each other. so lets pray for them and when THEY are ready then lets be ready with open arms to welcome them as our brothers and sisters through Christ
To Torus: I will stand on what Jesus said. When it is all said and done, we shall see. As a side note: For me, if Jesus doesn't exist, this would be Hell. I guess I wouldn't have far to go would I?
To Superman: There is no condemnation here, as I said before, my motivation is not the condomenation of sin, God knows I have my own. My motivation is purely to spread seed. Nothing more, nothing less. This is my calling.
To All: Dear ones, God made male and female. Babies are born from this. Creation takes place, there is an end result and God calls it good. But, some people listen to the dark one's lies that they were born differently. This is a lie. This is the same as saying LSD helps me get closer to God. Wrong.
Don't you see, it's the same lie all over again. In the Garden, the dark one said to Eve, "Did God really say...". She thought, she acted, and well, the rest is history. Today, we see that lie coming about again. Did God really say homosexuality is wrong? In fact, yes He did.
Dear ones, come to Jesus. Follow Him. He will guide you to the real truth. The only truth that can be. There cannot be more than one truth, this is impossible. But, the decision has always been ours to make. Jesus, when speaking to a disciple said, "You have seen me, but blessed are those who have not seen me, but still believe".
rcinsocal - the answer is because He made you this way, He loves you the way you are, and He has no interest in changing you. My conviction is pretty strong that he is not happy with the way his Word is being used here on Earth. I have a feeling that a lot of people that spend way too much time expounding on the "evils of homosexuality" will be in for a big surprise when they die.
BTW: Ever notice that its easy to put all your energy into railing against a "sin" that you wouldn't ever possibly commit?
my thoughts on this issue of gay people is simple, we as christians are responsible for allowing the world to go out of hand. jesus calls us the salt of the earth. salt preserves, not destroy. but He also said when the salt loses its savor, it is useful to no one and for nothing. the LORD has committed the manifestation of His truth to his people. but Jesus has shown us how to do it, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. people dont care how much you know until they know how much you care. we must learn to marry being firm in our faith in Jesus and unconditionally loving those who hate Him. condenming people who dont believe makes us like the pharisees of the new testament
JC -
If you wish to be have sex with many partners then it's your move. If those partners are okay with it then that's fine. If it's what will satisfy you and if everyone else is okay with it then sure. Drive plus consensus.
As regards your categorical imperative, being gay is not a moral action, it's a biological fact, hence your challenge is misplaced. As I've pointed out, many dozens of species have members which desire to be with those of their own sex and form bonds that way, voluntary for both.
To prove the bible true to me would take exactly the same as to prove any religious text true. Basically god would have to convince me somehow, whether that would be by performing some stunt which nobody else can, hard to tell. I figure if god exists and is really all-powerful then he ought to know if something that can convince me. What would convince you the Koran is all-true?
Good on your didactic question! The problem is that the inability to answer that question does not logically imply the existence of a supreme being. Furthermore, the impossibility of metaphysically coping with the "why is there anything?" question is logically equivalent to coping with the "why is there a god or gods?" question, meaning your question to me is also in a sense a question to yourself. Almost lastly, there's no reason to assume that the universe has a beginning. The big bang? Perhaps it was just an intermediate phase. Lastly, how much do you know about mathematical cosmology? The idea of "beginnings" and "causes" vanishes at a singularity. There was no "time" because "time" is part of the universe, hence no notion of "cause".
ps. I find the question of why anything exists a fascinating one.
As for arguing, you might want to consider a challenge to Pascal's Wager. You're making a heck of a bet thinking that your one (out of many) religions is the true one. The stakes might be greater than even you imagine when you die and get confronted by the wrong god who sends you to eternal damnation, all because you chose the wrong religion.
To Schumacr:
Your question was: " IF it could be proved that God exists, and IF if could be proved that the Bible is truly His inerrant Word, would those of you championing homosexuality give up your stance and follow what God says? "
The answer is No. I would simply ask him why did he make me homosexual if he didn't want me to be homosexual. Why would he who states do not lie, in so many ways, ask me to lie to a prospective wife about my love for her...to lie to my friends and family about whom I wish to marry? Why would he make the love I feel wrong and make only the love Heteros feel right? Why would he teach me that I am wrong so much to a point where I fought fought fought and prayed prayed prayed to be strait to a point where I almost took my life out of defeat? Then I would say...why would you make an apple if you wanted it to be an orange?
schumacr - an argument from silence? That is ridiculous! Then who is saying its wrong? The OT? Well, I operate under a new covenent! Jesus didn't say anything about it. So now its wrong because you say its wrong?
Look, there are passages that are clearly gay friendly and there are passages that clearly aren't. We all interpret the Bible to our liking. But stop using the Bible to enforce your prejudices. You say its clear as day but you are interpreting it. Don't lie and claim otherwise.
Schumacr is correct, we're not here to win arguments, just to show you the truth. It always has and always will speak for itself. We can intepret it anyway way we want, but there is only one way that is correct, and that is God's way. The way he meant it to be understood. This is called growth, one understands more and more as one searches. Things fall into place, and you gain understanding. God said that He would not turn anyone away if they search for Him. He so desires to have a one on one relationship with us, and he makes this possible. God is not going to force us to walk that path, we are not mindless robots. But if one decides to venture down that path, they will be helped every step of the way. We can't do it alone, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible.
Dear ones, one more thing. God does not expect us to be perfect. I've been reading the Bible for a long time, and I have yet to find any place where He said we are to be perfect, as this is impossible. However, we should be obedient. Is it difficult? Of course. Are we going to blow it? Of course. But consider this, He wants to have one on one with us, He doesn't expect us to be perfect, and He forgives us when we blow it. Dear ones, he is not going to make this difficult. We're the ones that make it difficult.
Torus -
So it comes down to biological feelings does it? Interesting. And it's how you're born is it? Well, I wasn't born monogamous and I don't think many are. My "natural" desires urge me to have sex with women other than my wife every now and again - should I give in to them? If not, why not? You see, I've chosen to obey God and celebrate sex only in the way He requests, which is in direct violation of my natural and biological instincts.
You have also unfortunately missed the point of the categorical imperative: take any broad MORAL action, apply it universally and observe the end result. Prove it wrong if you can.
I didn't think you'd answer my question of what you'd do if it could be proven to you that the Bible is completely true. It's a hard question to face. Even Nietzsche honestly admitted: “It is our preference that decides against Christianity, not arguments.”
But I will answer yours. To abandon my belief in God, you will need to supply a logical, empirical, and existential answer to what Sartre called the #1 philosophical question: why do we have "something" rather than nothing at all? Keep in mind that everything that has a beginning must have a cause and that science has 100% determined that our universe had a beginning. Also realize that theories such as collapsing universes, etc., require much more faith than belief in God. Secondly, to disbelieve in Christianity, I will need you to produce the body of Jesus Christ (and please don't appeal to the Cameron's Jesus Tomb theory).
Rather than argue back and forth, I hope you'll seriously consider these things. It's not about winning an argument - the stakes are much greater than that. God wants you to know, understand, and embrace His truth.
Ah Schumacr, if you can't tell the difference between two people who are driven to love each other by biological feelings and one person who wants to kill his offspring then there's not much hope for you.
I'll explain: When somebody kills his offspring then somebody dies, see? Got that death thing down? The biological process ought to be stopped for that reason. However if somebody falls in love with someone else and decides to be with them, that's two consenting adults deciding to be together, driven by the same love which drives all couples.
If you're not convinced of this last point then maybe you're not close enough to any gay couples. I'm friends with several. Most of them have stronger relationships than many of the straight couples I know.
By the way, your philosophical standpoint is flawed for two main reasons: One, it assumes that homosexuality is a choice, like lying. If you pop off your blinders briefly you'll find that most rational-thinking people have dismissed this idea. Two, moving something to the universal is not a good measurement. I teach math. What if everyone did, where would the world be then? My father loves my mother. What if everyone loved my mother?
As regards your final "if", since you're interested in the dialectic, what would it take to prove to you that there are no gods?
When gays and lesbians finally achieve equality, what will you do and how will you feel?
To schumacr:
Well said. You are not far from Him!!!
Just a few comments on what's been posted:
ifeelfine72: your argument of Christ not explicitly speaking about homosexuality is an argument from silence - the worst kind you can have. He didn't comment on torture or child abuse either - are those OK too?
torus: on the subject of animals - as someone has already pointed out, are we to mimic animal behavior? There are animals who routinely kill their mate/offspring or abandon their offspring - since that's natural, should we follow in their steps?
rcinsocal: your cut-and-paste arguments about the Old Testament don't work today any more than they did 10 years ago. Israel was a theocracy with many of the ceremonial and like laws being used as types for spiritual living. As one example - Israel was told not to weave garments made from two materials. Does God care about polyester/wool blends? No. It is a spiritual lesson to not mix their religion with the false religions around them.
Why is homosexuality wrong? Sure, God condemns it in Scripture, but why? Just "because"? No - God always has a reason for calling something sin. Here are two quick reasons...
First, it runs contrary to the nature of God. God is a Trinity - full unity and diversity. 3 different persons in one God. He designed man and marriage to mirror His nature. Intimacy in relationship where the two become one, with each being diverse from each other. Homosexuality violates this principle of diversity.
Second, from a philosophical standpoint, apply the categorical imperative(CI) to homosexuality. The CI says if you want to know if a particular moral behavior is valid or invalid, apply it on a universal basis and observe the end result. ). So, for example, lying – what happens if everyone in the world consistently lied? First, rational and trusted communication becomes impossible. But even more interesting is that it defeats itself because for a lie to be “productive” it relies on its target to be expecting the truth.
So what happens if everyone in the world practices the loving, committed homosexual relationships that the gay community declares is their goal? The human race ceases to exist in a generation and the practice defeats itself because it eradicates the very ones who are following the mandate.
The Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is just one of a number of sexual practices that God does not condone. Any sex outside of the marriage institution that God established is considered sinful, not just acts of homosexuality.
Last question: IF it could be proved that God exists, and IF if could be proved that the Bible is truly His inerrant Word, would those of you championing homosexuality give up your stance and follow what God says?
look....i know what you are saying...but i think you completely miss my point. Plain and simple...
If we took everything that are gods laws in the bible literaly this place called earth we live on would be a blood bath sacraficial nightmare. People getting shunned...stoned to death...pulled around on leashes like slaves...the list goes on...seriously it would be hell on earth. You would be afraid to think...but thankfully it is not literal.
I'm simply pointing out that yes...it says that being gay is an abomination, noone can argue that....but that it also says other ludicrious things that YOU and I and everyone does not, and can not, as a civilized society, take literaly...get it????
To Rcinsocal:
Sorry for the delay.
One at a time.
Slaves: Unfortunately, slaves are a part of Mankind's history. It is one occupation I would wish on no one. However, with this particular group being addressed in the scripture, these particular slaves lived pretty good. They were paid, and over time, were released as free individuals. This was also Jewish law as well.
Animal Sacrifice: Dear one, Jesus took care of this. His blood is the ultimate sacrifice. Judiasm however doesn't believe in the Messiah, Jesus, so technically they would still do this. But they can't, and won't, until the temple is rebuilt. This is why they want it rebuilt so badly.
Shellfish: This, dear one, is the same as pork. Think about it, God was not being religious, he was saving their lives. They had no refrigeration, no sterilization methods to speak of, other than boiling. This wasn't meant to be funny, religious, because God created pork & shellfish, but all of sudden didn't like them. No, this was purely to save their lives. Humans can put some strange things into their bodies.
Effiminate: This is a very feminine man. One who might be prone to wear women's clothes, or one who would want a sex change, etc., etc. God does not make mistakes. He created men and women. This is not a multiple choice question. To change this is to change nature itself.
Inheriting the Kindgom of God. Now we have reached the very heart of the matter I am really trying to convey. Dear ones, this is not meant to condemn anyone. My calling gives me a heart for the lost. My motivation is not to change your behavior, but to show you Jesus. He will take care of the behavior. However, dear ones, if you reject Him, well, this is what is meant as NOT inheriting the Kingdom of God. These will go another place, and you don't want to go there! Those who love God keep his commandments.
Dear ones, I myself am guilty of more sin than probably anybody on this planet. But I am washed in his blood, my eyes have been opened, and I am going to be with Him forever. I know, without a shred of doubt, that I will be with Him. This is not hard to attain at all. All one has to do is ask Jesus into their lives, so as he becomes Lord and Savior. If he is Lord and Savior of your lives, dear ones, your eyes will be opened too.
rcinsocal
When one truly becomes a child of God, they do not want to do the things that God says are an abomination, no matter whether it is shellfish or anything else. They will want to be pleasing to the Lord in all aspects of life. We need His Holy Spirit to strengthen us and guide us to do those things that a true child of God WILL WANT to do for HIM. There are many sins that are an abomination and displeasing in the Lords sight, but we need to go to Him in with humble hearts, and ask for His help in changing us and applying that change to our lives,,, if not ,then the answer to your question YES Heaven will be that empty.
7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Since some animals do it, maybe it's OK? These perverts are not only disgusting, they have a good sense of humor too.
American Heritage Dictionary
a·bom·i·na·tion (ə-bŏm'ə-nā'shən) Pronunciation Key
n.
Abhorrence; disgust.
A cause of abhorrence or disgust.
Dictionary.com
1. anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.
2. intense aversion or loathing; detestation
3. a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.:
Lev.18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Lev.20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Rom.1:26-27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
To JC:
question: What about all the passages that were "written" that I quoted? having slaves, animal sacrifices (Lev. 1:9), not working on Sabbath (Exodus 35:2), not eating shellfish (which is also an "abomination" by the way), stoning people to death, being efeminate=you're out (is that being an actual woman or just being a little girly?)...etc etc etc all these things by either doing or not doing and many many more may keep you from inheriting the kingdom of God. is heaven really going to be that empty??
-R
to ifeelfine72:
Dear one, I am quoting 1st Corinthians now: Chapter 6, verses 9 and 10:
NASB Version: 9: Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10: nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Tyndale Version: 9: Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, no adulterers, nor effiminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
10: nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
NIV Version: 9: Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders,
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
We can do this all day ifeelfine72, or anybody else. His Word speaks for itself. I'll stand with this. This is not hyprocrisy, this is what is written.
But dear ones, there is hope, for the next verse says a lot as well. Look it up.
Question: How can you say that "God doesn't share them", when I am quoting from His word?
How can it be hypocrisy to say what is written. How can it be hypocrisy to say God doesn't like when his word clearly states he doesn't like it?
This logic is illogical.
JC - by the way, stop using the Bible to try and enforce your prejudices - I can promise you God doesn't share them!
Dear rcinsocal:
You are very welcome. Please know that I don't hate you, or any homosexual for that matter, just the behavior.
You said "I think Jesus would say that if he were walking umungst us or bloggin umungst us right now." -- Dear one, have you not read His word for yourself? Before his ascension, he spoke that his business was the Father's business. Since we see that Jesus was about the Father's business, and since Jesus and the Father are one, their Words will be the same too.
Please be careful dear one, you cannot change God to fit your lifestyle. He is what He is. We can't change Him as He will not allow it. And if we could, He would not be much of a god now would he?
His Word says that this is an abomination to him, to very nature itself. Does this mean he doesn't love you. Of course not. But it does mean that until you change the behavior, you will not be a follower of his.
This is not meant to be harsh, please don't take it that way dear one. But there are only so many ways I can say that this is something that God absolutely hates. So much, that he specifically mentioned this behavior more than once in His Word. This was mean't to be more than just the law of the land, this is his criteria for entering into Heaven with him. Please read this for youself. If you want eternal life, please, please, read His Word. Read Jesus.
JC - then that must be the only passage of Leviticus you agree with because you claim that because it is Old Testament, it is false. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. It's obvious you are a hypocrite. Again, Corinthians is refering to a common practice among the Greek where by they took a young male and often violated him - it had nothing to do with homosexuality - it had to do with pedastery.
To JC.
I am so glad you took the time to read what I submitted. I can rest to know that you now see the insanity/bigotry you all preach.
I'm not saying there aren't alot of great passages in the bible with the aim to teach us all to be good people in general, there definately are.
Just be advised that there are good people in all shapes and sizes including us homosexuals, and from the passages I submitted, and you commented on, you can see that it is not socialy responisible or even legal in most contries to follow the bibles "laws" word for word.
Get out of the box and learn to love, not hate and judge...I think Jesus would say that if he were walking umungst us or bloggin umungst us right now.
-R
To ifeelfine72:
Dear one, whether you find it in red or black, it is Jesus that is saying it. Do you not know what is written in Revalation 19:13: "He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God."
Whether you read the Old or New Testament, whether it is in red or not, His Word, or Jesus, still says homosexuality is wrong. Please see 1st Corinthians 6:9 and 10 for one of many examples.
As far as being "fine with homosexuality", I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not. The act is an abomination to God, and since I am a follower of His, it too is an abomination to me. If anybody says they are a Christian, but accepts homosexuality as okay, then they are at odds with Jesus himself, because His Word (He Himself) says different.
JC - then you must be ok with homosexuality because that is the part of the Bible that comes down hardest on it. You won't find any words in red about homosexuality.
Ah JC. Do some research before you go off about animals. Sure, I can't ask any of the dozens of species which have members who "act homosexual", but it's evidently clear that when one creature shuns the opposite sex and forms a relationship with one of the same...well...I think it's pretty clear what's going on, no? That creature (whether it can tell you or not) is biologically driven to be with a member of the same sex.
Homosexuality serves no biological (reproductive) function but so what? Humans are complicated organisms subject to a myriad of biological interactions. Evolutionarily speaking if 5% or even 1% of people are gay and do not reproduce it doesn't matter; the world's population will still grow. Homosexuality is just a biological status possessed by a minority. According to your argument nobody should be sterile either but a percentage of the population is born that way. That's life.
As for knowing about Christianity, it's clear to me that it's like many other religions. Why is yours special? Why is it better than Judaism, Islam or Jainism?
What am I banking on? No sure what you mean, please elaborate.
To rcinsocal:
What?
I don't know if anybody has told you yet, but we are under a New Covenant now. I would suggest reading the New Testament for discovery of your questions. You will find that Jesus was the last sacrifice, and if you are sacrificing animals to "God", then I'm sorry to tell you, it's the wrong god.
You may want to do further research before attempting this again.
Torus,
I'm sorry you feel this way. Dear one, who made you so angry?
Of course animals are not homosexual. They're not even gender confused. Modern scientists have a weird way of putting a twist on things they see. They say, "Oh, it must be...". This notion is completely absurd and is only based on "visual" evidence. Scientists have absolutely no way of actually ascertaining what any animal is thinking at that particular moment. This argument is completely without a solid foundation, and is only based on human experiences, not animal emotions, affections or attitudes. Scientists have only guessed on these issues, and not very well I might add.
Homosexuality serves no function, in the animal or human world whatsoever. It produces nothing. No creation, nothing. The act itself is pointless, except for the lust of the flesh. If we look at God's creation, we see great order in all things. This particular act is outside that scope of order, as it has no purpose, other than for sex.
Dear one, if I am an "ignorant buffoon" for standing on the Word of the Most High, then so be it. I will gladly take this title.
You also said "There are lots of other religions and if you plan on standing still the rest of the world will wash right around you"
Dear one, you must know nothing of Christianity, because we are not part of the World to begin with. If it washes around me, fine. I intended to let it anyway. As far as "other religions", we will see who is still standing when it is all said and done. I'll take my chances with the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses, the great I AM.
Who, or what, are you banking on Torus, if I may be so bold to ask?
Torus
You contradict yourself. You say that gays don't tell people to stop doing what they are doing. Yet this is exactly what they are doing through this legislation. They are demanding that Christians stop believing a particular way. That Christians stop believing that homosexuality is a sin. You say they only want to get on with their lives. Yet their attempts at getting on with their lives including forcing a segment of the population to totally accept a different way of thinking. To me this is the ultimate intolerence.
And as far as the world washing around us. That is fine. When those waters come, those of us who have built our foundation on the Word of God will remain standing.
Peace.
Oh JC, you're so ignorant!
Acceptance: Have you checked (lately or ever) regarding how many species in nature have members which are homosexual? If you'd checked that you'd know it's entirely natural. Mainstream society has been more and more understanding of the truth as the years go by. Major (popular) TV shows with gay characters for example. You're on the losing end of the acceptance battle.
Tolerance: "not tolerating any behavior but their own"? How many gays do you know who have told others to stop what they're doing? All they want to do is get on with their lives, it's ignorant buffoons like you who get in the way.
Adversaries: Religions change as time goes by. Christianity will change just like it has in the past; it's changed to make room for reality for hundreds of years.
To heck with what Christianity wants, this is not about Christianity. News Flash! You're one member of a religion! You don't have dibs on anything! There are lots of other religions and if you plan on standing still the rest of the world will wash right around you.
As Christian philosopher J. Budziszewski writes in his book The Revenge of Conscience: “Those who rationalize their sins find it to be so much work that they require other people to support them in it.”
You guys said it all. Amen to Bush and a wise decision.
It seems to me that the homosexual agenda can only be based on certain finite things. Everything beyond that is purely academic. Acceptance, tolerance and dealing with adversary. It seems to me that this is the case as this has been their pattern thus far. Well, let’s take a closer look, shall we?
Acceptance: Homosexuals so desperately want to be accepted by mainstream society. Why? The answer, mainstream society knows this practice to be wrong, whether Christian or not. The act itself is a violation of nature. So, they try to influence the court systems to force acceptance. They would, currently, not let this go for a vote among the American people. Same reason abortion has never been put up to a vote by the American people. It would never fly. This case is a great example, the discrimination law they want, already exists.
Tolerance: They try to pass bills like this so as to force us to tolerate their behavior, all the while not tolerating any behavior but their own. Ever seen a San Francisco gay parade? How many remember the Fire Dept. individuals in San Diego that were forced to attend a gay parade? What about the educational indoctrination students are being endangered of receiving now? What about the portrait of "The Last Supper" that was just in the news, where they were dressed in sadomasochistic clothing with sex toys on the table. Isn't it interesting who their prime target is?
Adversaries: Their behavior automatically pits them against true Christians. True Christians know what God says about this behavior. Therefore, homosexuals either avoid Christians altogether as they view us as intolerant bigots, or they change the scripture to be tolerant of their behavior. Some churches have either eliminated certain verses from scripture, or choose to ignore them altogether. Either for the donated money or to justify their own behavior as well. However, true Christians know there is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. The two are at complete odds with each other and completely incompatible. This is what is written. One only has to look to find it.
So, if we look at what they want, by what they are saying, what they are changing, and who their opposition is, we can see what the underlying issue is: Acceptance. That is it, nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, for them, true Christianity will never accept their behavior. And they must realize, true Christianity will never accept their behavior as nothing more than lusting after the flesh.
However, with all that being said, how we deal with them is as important as what we say. We must love them, but hate their behavior, for this is what will get through to them. The Bible says love covers a multitude of sins.
The Employment Non-Discrimination Act, H.R. 3685 was and is attempt to give Gay's Special rights not equal rights like they tell the rest of us. People in this country who are labeled "minority" somehow feel entitled. Why? Come on some one out there knows why... As for Bush he hasn't been my favorite ( can any onesay IRAQ) but I'm glad he took this stand. It's EQUAL RIGHTS folks not SPECIAL RIGHTS.
Next the Democrats will attempt to give child molesters equal rights in the workplace. Thank God for President Bush! Kerry would have signed this over in a heart-beat. It is high time that Congress be taken to task for all of their idealisms.