WASHINGTON – Presidential contender Mitt Romney is being advised not to equate Mormons to Christians because doing so will cause tension with many Christians who do not consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as part of historic orthodox Christianity.
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(Photo: AP Images / Wilfredo Lee)Republican Presidential hopeful, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, center, shakes hands Saturday, Oct. 27, 2007 at the Swamp Buggy Parade in Naples, Fla.
“I told him, you cannot equate Mormonism with Christianity; you cannot say ‘I am a Christian just like you,’” said Rep. Bob Inglis (R-S.C.), according to Bloomberg news.
“If he does that, every Baptist preacher in the South is going to have to go to the pulpit on Sunday and explain the difference,” Inglis added.
South Carolina is an early voting state and the first primary among Southern states. Romney, like other candidates, are campaigning hard in the state to woo religious voters who make up a significant portion of both party’s electorate.
Romney has so far successfully garnered the endorsements of evangelical leaders Bob Jones III and Robert Taylor, the grandson of the founder of Bob Jones University and a top dean at the school,respectively, during his outreach this month to evangelicals in South Carolina.
However, although many evangelical leaders say they want to elect a “Commander-in-Chief” rather than a “Theologian-in-Chief,” they still disagree with Romney’s calling Mormons, Christians.
“When he goes around and says Jesus Christ is my Lord and savior, he ticks off at least half the evangelicals,” said Richard Land, a leader in the 16 million-strong Southern Baptist Convention, according to Bloomberg. “He’s picking a fight he’s going to lose.”
Land last week had said during an interview that he considers Mormonism a fourth Abrahamic religion.
“Judaism being the first, Christianity being the second, Islam being the third and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being the fourth,” said the prominent Baptist leader on the “Political Capital” Program.
He said he views Mormonism as another religion, just as he considers Islam another religion even though it shares some biblical figures with Christianity.
Notably, Mormonism was formally listed under “cults and sects” by the Southern Baptist Convention, but was newly categorized among “newly developed religions” on the North American Mission Board apologetics page.
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For anyone who might be questioning the Christianity of the LDS (Mormon) Church, please read the testimony of a living apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ:
http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,49-1-775-15,00.html
The living Apostles have been called of God:
1. Paul did not accompany Jesus as he went in and out among his disciples. He was called as an Apostle much after Christ had left this world. In fact, he persecuted the Saints for a long time. He was called through revelation, and was then baptized (Acts 9).
2. The living Apostles have been called directly by Jesus Christ, by His revelation, and it is His authority that they possess. Their appointment and authority can be traced back, by the laying on of hands, directly to Jesus Christ.
3. The supernatural endowment of the Holy Spirit that you mention is the authority of the Melchezidek priesthood. It is that authority which gives them the power to act in the name of the Son, and yes, even do signs and wonders.
If there weren't Apostles on the earth today, the Church wouldn't exist either. For, as you said, it is built on the foundation of apostles and prophets.
The restoration of the gospel was prophesied by many prophets anciently (Rev. 14:6), and is here and now today.
I invite all those who would like to learn more about God's work to visit www.mormon.org.
The gospel is true. Jesus is the Christ. And God is working a marvelous work and a wonder on the earth today.
Mormon teachings artfully twist and misrepresent Biblical Christianity and you can obfuscate and change the subject to your heart's content. However, you have continually failed to even minimally address the glaring errors and false teachings which I have thus far outlined. Sadly, instead of responding to the larger question in any given portion of our conversation (if you can call it that), you have repeatedly latched on to a single vaguely related issue and proceeded to pour forth your false teachings regarding the matter. Nowhere do I see evidence of your truthful intent to consider the ideas that have been spoken of.
Hesadanza, I'm going to go the mat for you. Truthfully in all my years as a Christian I have never once been compelled to fast. However, I am being led to fast and pray for you as I have never done before, that the Lord may open your eyes. This is no boast. I merely wish that when the Spirit tugs on your heart and leads you out of your darkness, that you might recognize from whence it comes and follow. I have shared with you what I can, regarding true Christian faith, so much to the point of verging on vain arguments and thus I will go no further. I put this matter entirely in the hands of God and pray that He grants you the wisdom, grace and knowledge of true salvation, that I may meet you one day in heaven.
Maranatha!
The biblical evidence for the cessation of the Apostolate:
The Scriptures nowhere indicate explicitly that the living Apostolate would continue. There is no record of the Apostles appointing personal successors for themselves. Nor did they leave to the church the new qualifications which would have been needed for the proper recognition of such future Apostles.
The living Apostolate was historically unique and unrepeatable because of its biblical qualifications. Since the First Century A.D., there has been no one who has been able to legitimately qualify as a personal witness of the resurrected Christ who was personally called by Christ to be His Apostle.
The living Apostolate was historically unique and unrepeatable because of its foundational place in the building of the church. Read Eph. 2:19-22 (cp. Mt. 16:17-18; Rev. 21:14). The Apostles along with the New Testament prophets were the foundation of the church and not its superstructure. Now let me ask you, What part of a building is built first? It is the foundation. And once the foundation has been laid and the building is being built upon it, you do not keep on pouring the foundation do you? In the same way, neither should we expect to find living Apostles in the church on earth after the initial foundational period of the church. (Not even Christ the cornerstone of the church has had a bodily presence with His church on earth since He returned to heaven in the First Century A.D., although He is present with her through His Spirit.)
The living Apostolate evidently has ceased to be present in the church because some of the later New Testament epistles appear to be preparing the church for a time when there would be no Apostolate giving new revelation. Read I Tim. 6:20; II Pet. 1:12-15; Jude 3 (cp. II Thess. 2:15; 3:6; II Tim. 1:13-14; 2:2).
In short, there ARE NO LIVING APOSTLES in Christ's church today.
The Apostolic Church lasted from approximately 30 to 100 A.D., and ended with the death of the Apostle John. The church ceased to have living Apostles at that time. There are no successors to the Apostles nor replacements. (and no, not even the Pope) The twelve Apostles were appointed by Christ during His earthly ministry. The qualifications for an Apostle are as follows:
(1) Read Acts 1:21-22; 10:39-41. In order to be one of the twelve, one had to have accompanied Jesus all the time that He went in and out among His disciples (i.e. from the baptism of John or thereabouts). This was important if the Apostle was to be qualified to be an eye and ear witness of Christ's resurrection and all that He did.
(2) Read Luke 6:12-13; Acts 1:23-26. There had to be a direct appointment by Jesus Christ if one was to be recognized as a capital "A" Apostle. This was underscored in the selection of Matthias where the final decision was left to the Lord in the drawing of the lots.
(3) Read Acts 1:1-8. A third qualification of an Apostle was the reception of a supernatural endowment of the Holy Spirit, which was given for two closely-related purposes:
(a) To supernaturally enable them to be witnesses of Christ so that they inerrantly spoke the Word of God by divine
inspiration along with individuals closely connected with them (like Mark and Luke) Read Matt. 10:5a; 18-20; Jn. 16:12-15. (Also cp. Jn. 14:25-26.)
(b) To enable them to back up their testimony with supernatural signs and wonders. Read Mt. 10:1; II Cor.. 12:11-12. These signs and wonders were connected with the Apostles because they supported their divinely inspired witness, even as new periods of divine revelation had been generally accompanied by such miraculous signs in past redemptive history (Moses, Elijah and Elisha, Daniel, etc.).
Yes, God directs us to the words of his Apostles. There are twelve living Apostles on earth today, called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. Will you hearken and listen to the words of the prophets?
All doctrine was not given through Christ to his apostles while in the flesh. Do you forget the Old Testament? It literally was a "testament" of the truth too, which is why it is called such. Those prophets wrote and testified of the coming and ministry of Jesus Christ and the truth and received revelation thousands of years before Christ was born in the flesh. Are we do discard all of that revelation?
Again, the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. It is nothing new. It is nothing different. It is the same gospel that Jesus Christ preached and lived. It is Christ's restored gospel, and all those who would persecute and destroy the saints are kicking against the pricks.
God has revealed his word from heaven in every dispensation of this earth, from Adam to Enoch to Abraham to Moses to Isaiah to Christ to the Apostles, and he hasn't stopped today.
Interesting you mention "Nobody is permitted to add anything to it, nor to subtract anything from it (Joshua 23:6; Deut. 4:2)." Do you not realize that everything from Joshua forward through the entire New Testament was written after Deuteronomy and Joshua? If what you are saying is true, the Bible today would only have Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua, and there it would stop.
God continually reveals his word to his people on earth, and wo unto those who will not receive it, who say we have already received and will receive no more. From them will be taken away even that which they have (2 Nephi 28:30).
Time and again our Lord Jesus refers us to the Word of Scripture as that source that cannot be broken, and He directs us to the Word of His Apostles (the New Testament). He says, "If you continue in My Word, then ye shall know the truth" (John 8:31). So also our Lord declares that people will be drawn to faith in Him through the word of His Apostles ("through your word" John 17:20).
There can be no development of or additions to doctrine because all Christian truth was given to the Church by our Lord through His Apostles, as a finished, complete and perfect revelation, fixed for all time. It neither needs improvement nor is capable of improvement.
Christ's mandate in Matt. 28:18-20 extends over the entire New Testament era to Judgment Day. According to our Lord's commission, the Church is to teach the nations all things whatsoever Christ has commanded. Christ indicates clearly in these passages that the church has His doctrine in the word He has given and entrusted to His Apostles, who in turn set down this revelation in written form in the New Testament.
The Apostles themselves insisted on the finality of the revelation entrusted to them by Jesus Christ. Paul frequently exhorts the churches to retain the doctrine which he had "handed over" to them (that is the literal meaning of the word "tradition"). He writes:
"Therefore, brothers, stand firm, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or our letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). Paul also refers to the future and warns, "After my departure grievous wolves shall enter among you, not sparing the flock. Also from your very own men will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:29-30).
Paul left no room for interim theology, or conditioned revelation. "Keep this commandment...until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim. 4:1ff). He even goes so far as to pronounce a condemnation to hell on those who would change the Gospel he had preached (Gal. 1:6-9; 5:12).
From history we are sadly aware that whenever men develop or claim to have "new revelations," these attempts always result in the perversion and destruction of pure doctrine. The most important point, however, is simply this: Once God had chosen to give His Word in writing, the Church of every age and in all places, is forever bound to this written divine revelation. Nobody is permitted to add anything to it, nor to subtract anything from it (Joshua 23:6; Deut. 4:2). With the Word of the New Testament Apostles, God's revelation of the doctrine to His Church is entirely complete.
The apostle Paul warns of "another Jesus whom we have not preached... a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted" (2 Cor. 11:4).
Paul also warns: "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8).
You said, "Often people of different religions use the same or nearly the same words to express widely different ideas."
This is exactly why the world needs modern-day revelation. God's mouth has not been shut today. He speaks to his chosen servants on earth today, prophets and apostles, just as he has done in every other age of this earth, and has given revelation resolving the many factions, divisions, differences, interpretations, and winds of doctrine that are thrown about in the Christian world, so that we may "come to a unity in the faith." There is only "one Lord, one faith, and one baptism" (Eph. 4:5). It is our job to seek out those that have been called by God to speak his word, and then listen to them, for God has said "by my own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same" (D&C 1:38).
Not every Christian church believes in what you call the "four essential elements." Evangelicalism believes that, but Catholicism does not. For example, Catholicism believes that you must be baptized, or christened, as an infant to be saved. If you are not, you will be damned. That is not just salvation through grace and faith alone. That is salvation through an ordinance and ritual of the church. They do not believe in "evangelicalism". According to your definition of "orthodoxy", Catholicism would also be labeled as heretical. The only churches that believe in your "four essential elements" of orthodoxy are those to which you belong, which is probably evangelical. There are many other Christian churches that believe otherwise, and are still Christian - they believe in Christ. Your view of Christianity is very narrow.
Revelation is the key. What God says is what is true. We do not have to try to figure these things out by ourselves. God has revealed his truth today. Because "where there is no vision [revelation], the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18).
In conclusion, it is not always easy to tell the difference between heretical and orthodox doctrines. Often people of different religions use the same or nearly the same words to express widely different ideas. One of the marks of the "cults," in fact, is the use of Christian terminology to express non-Christian concepts. This is very much the case with deification.
How, then, can Christians tell the difference? There are four essential elements to an orthodox view of the relationship between God and man, and any doctrine which compromises or denies these teachings is less than soundly orthodox. These four elements are monotheism, trinitarianism, incarnationalism, and evangelicalism.
MONOTHEISM, is the view that a single, unique, infinite Being (called God) created all other beings out of nothing, and that this Creator will forever be the only, real, true God.
TRINITARIANISM is the distinctive Christian revelation of God, according to which the one God exists eternally as three distinct but inseparable persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
INCARNATIONALISM is the teaching that the second person of the Trinity (called the "Word" in John 1:1,14, and the "Son" in Matthew 28:19), without ceasing to be God, became flesh, uniting uniquely in His one undivided person the two natures of deity and humanity.
EVANGELICALISM is the belief that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
With these four criteria of orthodoxy in mind, how do the various doctrines of deification measure up? The doctrines of the church fathers, as well as of Eastern Orthodoxy, are thoroughly orthodox on all four points.
However, if we compare these distinctions to Mormon doctrine which explicitly rejects certain essential teachings of orthodoxy, it becomes plain to see that Mormonism is heretical.
A monotheistic doctrine of deification WAS taught by many of the church fathers, and is believed by many Christians today, including the entire Eastern Orthodox church. However, in keeping with monotheism, the Eastern Orthodox does NOT teach that men will literally become "gods" (which would be polytheism). Rather, as did many of the church fathers, they teach that men are "deified" in the sense that the Holy Spirit dwells within Christian believers and transforms them into the IMAGE of God in Christ, eventually endowing them in the resurrection with immortality and God's perfect moral character.
Mormons are very explicit in their "scriptures" that there are many Gods; for example, the three persons of the Trinity are regarded as three "Gods." Since they believe that many Gods exist but at present worship only one -- God the Father -- at least one Mormon scholar has admitted with qualifications that their doctrine could be termed "henotheistic." Henotheism is a variety of polytheism in which there are many gods, but only one which should be worshiped. Thus, the meaning of deification in Mormonism is radically different than that of the church fathers who used similar terms, despite Mormon arguments to the contrary.
The Bible in both Old and New Testaments explicitly and repeatedly affirms that there is only one God (e.g., Deut. 4:35-39; Isa. 43:10; 44:6-8; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; 1 Tim. 2:5; James 2:19). Therefore. the Bible most definitely rejects any sort of polytheism, including henotheism. In practice, the question of whether the Bible ever calls men "gods" in a positive sense focuses exclusively on Psalm 82:6 ("I said, 'you are gods'") and its citation by Jesus in John 10:34-35.
The usual view among biblical expositors for centuries is that Psalm 82 refers to Israelite judges by virtue of their position as judges representing God; it is, therefore, a figurative usage which applies only to those judges and does not apply to men or even believers in general. If this interpretation is correct, Psalm 82:6 is also irrelevant to any doctrine of Christian deification.
An alternative interpretation agrees that the "gods" are Israelite judges, but sees the use of the term "gods" as an ironic figure of speech. Irony is a rhetorical device in which in which something is said to be the case in such a way as to make the assertion seem ridiculous (compare Paul's ironic "you have become kings" in 1 Corinthians 4:8, where Paul's point is that they had NOT become kings). According to this interpretation, the parallel description of the "gods" as "sons of the Most High" (which, it is argued, is not in keeping with the Old Testament use of the term "sons" of God), the condemnation of the judges for their wicked judgment, and especially the statement, "Nevertheless, you will die as men," all point to the conclusion that the judges are called "gods" in irony.
The doctrine of theosis, or the divine potential of man, was taught by Christ and his apostles and the early Christians long before it was corrupted:
1. "Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, 'I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High.' ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality." -Saint Irenaeus
2. "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how a man becomes a god." - Saint Clement of Alexandria
3. "The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.... Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." - Saint Athanasius
4. "He [Christ] became man that we might be made divine." - Saint Athanasius
5. "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods." - Saint Augustine
This doctrine is not a made-up fabrication. It is a restoration of the truth, as it can be clearly seen was taught and believed by early Christians.
It's entirely unnecessary for me to outline here the numerous shortcomings of LDS's book of mormon upon which the LDS church bases it's beliefs. They are well enough known.
Suffice to say:
Prophecies that fail are an automatic disqualification of a prophet as truly coming from God.
The LDS church misrepresents God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, the nature of their/his relationship one to another and his history.
God is entirely self-existant, has always existed and always will. There is no point in time in which God did/does/will not exist.
God does not contradict Himself as the LDS Standard Works do. For example the Book of Mormon states that God created the heavens and the earth, yet they teach that he was born a man on some planet out in the universe that already existed and that he has a mother and father who had a mother and father and so on back in time. Yet, how then could their god be the creator of the universe in which he was born into and only after a human life was exalted to becoming a god? The contradiction in their Scriptures shows its blatant error which give proof of its human authorship. The LDS Scriptures do not compare to the Bible on any level and are proven to be historically, culturally and doctrinally to be in gross error with known history, archaeology, and science, therefore it is shown not be be from God.
I would admonish you put away from you the false teachings of LDS and search out and cling to the true Gospel that was "ONCE FOR ALL delivered to the saints" Jude 1:3
Hesdanza said: "Yes, you and I are the spirit children of God. And Lucifer is a spirit child of God as well, along with the third of the host of heaven:
You can play your word games all you like, but the truth is, that in the above statement, your reference to "spirit children" names men and angels and even Lucifer as being alike and somehow actual children of God. This is NOT the case.
How about we look at the rest of Romans 8, which you quoted only in part.
Rom 8:9 says: " But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Rom 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."
Do you understand what is written here? If we have not the Spirit, as is our state when we come into this world, we are not of the Father's family. We become children of God by adoption and are grafted into the vine. Not until we receive the Spirit can we cry Abba, Father.
God is not residing in heaven with numerous wives birthing spiritual baby souls with which to populate human bodies! We are created, NOT Begotten and we will not one day become gods, ourselves.
We are children of our Heavenly Father, and I will use the Bible. Christ taught that we are to pray to God addressing him as our Father (Matthew 6:9). Why would we do that? Because he IS our Father. He is our Heavenly Father, that is why we pray to Him thus. Christ referred to God as the Father many many times (John 14:6, 21-24). As did the apostles refer to God as the Father (1 Cor. 8:6). Moses and Aaron called God the "God of the spirits of all flesh" (Numbers 16:22). That's because he is the Father of our spirits. Again we are told we are "children of the Lord [our] God" (Deut. 14:1). We are told we are "children of the most High" (Psalm 82:6). We are told again that we are "sons of the living God" (Hosea 1:10). And in Malachi, "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?" (Malachi 2:10). Christ himself called God our Father - "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). Paul taught us quite literally - "we are the offspring of God" (Acts 17:29). I don't know how much more explicit it can get. "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together" (Romans 8:16-17). There is "One God and Father of all" (Eph. 4:6). And again, teaching us the difference between our mortal and heavenly fathers - "Furthermore, we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Hebrews 12:9). I think it is pretty clear from the Bible that we are children of God, and not in some theoretical or hypothetical sense, but in a very literal and real sense.
I have read the Bible, and it speaks the truth and confirms everything that has been revealed in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not a different gospel. It is the same gospel of Jesus Christ. And it has been restored in its fulness on the earth today. I have prayed and asked God if it is true, and the Holy Ghost has born witness to my soul that it is true, and I will not deny it.
"And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye - for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness" (2 Nephi 33:10-11).
Sorry Hesadanza " But, THAT is not what Christ, or the early Christians, taught".
We are not "spirit children" of God nor is Lucifer.
I pray that the Lord would open your eyes and that you'd turn away from these man-made myths and recognize Christ for who He truly is. Perhaps, less listening to your "spiritual leaders" and much more reading of the Bible would be of benefit.
Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel, Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
There is no "other" gospel that can be legitimately added to the canon of the Bible
Come out from this false hope. God was not once as we are now, nor does he have wives, nor will we some day be elevated to godhood, ourselves. That is a false teaching straight from the pit of hell.
I plead with you Hesadanza, pray for guidance and look at these matters afresh. There really is nothing less than your immortal soul at stake!