Romney Advised Not to Equate Mormons, Christians

Hesadanza »

Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:10 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

For anyone who might be questioning the Christianity of the LDS (Mormon) Church, please read the testimony of a living apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ:
http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,49-1-775-15,00.html

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

The living Apostles have been called of God:

1. Paul did not accompany Jesus as he went in and out among his disciples. He was called as an Apostle much after Christ had left this world. In fact, he persecuted the Saints for a long time. He was called through revelation, and was then baptized (Acts 9).
2. The living Apostles have been called directly by Jesus Christ, by His revelation, and it is His authority that they possess. Their appointment and authority can be traced back, by the laying on of hands, directly to Jesus Christ.
3. The supernatural endowment of the Holy Spirit that you mention is the authority of the Melchezidek priesthood. It is that authority which gives them the power to act in the name of the Son, and yes, even do signs and wonders.

If there weren't Apostles on the earth today, the Church wouldn't exist either. For, as you said, it is built on the foundation of apostles and prophets.

The restoration of the gospel was prophesied by many prophets anciently (Rev. 14:6), and is here and now today.

I invite all those who would like to learn more about God's work to visit www.mormon.org.

The gospel is true. Jesus is the Christ. And God is working a marvelous work and a wonder on the earth today.

Quecat »

Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:08 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

Mormon teachings artfully twist and misrepresent Biblical Christianity and you can obfuscate and change the subject to your heart's content. However, you have continually failed to even minimally address the glaring errors and false teachings which I have thus far outlined. Sadly, instead of responding to the larger question in any given portion of our conversation (if you can call it that), you have repeatedly latched on to a single vaguely related issue and proceeded to pour forth your false teachings regarding the matter. Nowhere do I see evidence of your truthful intent to consider the ideas that have been spoken of.

Hesadanza, I'm going to go the mat for you. Truthfully in all my years as a Christian I have never once been compelled to fast. However, I am being led to fast and pray for you as I have never done before, that the Lord may open your eyes. This is no boast. I merely wish that when the Spirit tugs on your heart and leads you out of your darkness, that you might recognize from whence it comes and follow. I have shared with you what I can, regarding true Christian faith, so much to the point of verging on vain arguments and thus I will go no further. I put this matter entirely in the hands of God and pray that He grants you the wisdom, grace and knowledge of true salvation, that I may meet you one day in heaven.
Maranatha!

Quecat »

Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:05 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

The biblical evidence for the cessation of the Apostolate:
The Scriptures nowhere indicate explicitly that the living Apostolate would continue. There is no record of the Apostles appointing personal successors for themselves. Nor did they leave to the church the new qualifications which would have been needed for the proper recognition of such future Apostles.
The living Apostolate was historically unique and unrepeatable because of its biblical qualifications. Since the First Century A.D., there has been no one who has been able to legitimately qualify as a personal witness of the resurrected Christ who was personally called by Christ to be His Apostle.
The living Apostolate was historically unique and unrepeatable because of its foundational place in the building of the church. Read Eph. 2:19-22 (cp. Mt. 16:17-18; Rev. 21:14). The Apostles along with the New Testament prophets were the foundation of the church and not its superstructure. Now let me ask you, What part of a building is built first? It is the foundation. And once the foundation has been laid and the building is being built upon it, you do not keep on pouring the foundation do you? In the same way, neither should we expect to find living Apostles in the church on earth after the initial foundational period of the church. (Not even Christ the cornerstone of the church has had a bodily presence with His church on earth since He returned to heaven in the First Century A.D., although He is present with her through His Spirit.)
The living Apostolate evidently has ceased to be present in the church because some of the later New Testament epistles appear to be preparing the church for a time when there would be no Apostolate giving new revelation. Read I Tim. 6:20; II Pet. 1:12-15; Jude 3 (cp. II Thess. 2:15; 3:6; II Tim. 1:13-14; 2:2).

In short, there ARE NO LIVING APOSTLES in Christ's church today.

Quecat »

Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:05 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

The Apostolic Church lasted from approximately 30 to 100 A.D., and ended with the death of the Apostle John. The church ceased to have living Apostles at that time. There are no successors to the Apostles nor replacements. (and no, not even the Pope) The twelve Apostles were appointed by Christ during His earthly ministry. The qualifications for an Apostle are as follows:

(1) Read Acts 1:21-22; 10:39-41. In order to be one of the twelve, one had to have accompanied Jesus all the time that He went in and out among His disciples (i.e. from the baptism of John or thereabouts). This was important if the Apostle was to be qualified to be an eye and ear witness of Christ's resurrection and all that He did.

(2) Read Luke 6:12-13; Acts 1:23-26. There had to be a direct appointment by Jesus Christ if one was to be recognized as a capital "A" Apostle. This was underscored in the selection of Matthias where the final decision was left to the Lord in the drawing of the lots.

(3) Read Acts 1:1-8. A third qualification of an Apostle was the reception of a supernatural endowment of the Holy Spirit, which was given for two closely-related purposes:

(a) To supernaturally enable them to be witnesses of Christ so that they inerrantly spoke the Word of God by divine
inspiration along with individuals closely connected with them (like Mark and Luke) Read Matt. 10:5a; 18-20; Jn. 16:12-15. (Also cp. Jn. 14:25-26.)

(b) To enable them to back up their testimony with supernatural signs and wonders. Read Mt. 10:1; II Cor.. 12:11-12. These signs and wonders were connected with the Apostles because they supported their divinely inspired witness, even as new periods of divine revelation had been generally accompanied by such miraculous signs in past redemptive history (Moses, Elijah and Elisha, Daniel, etc.).

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:55 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

Yes, God directs us to the words of his Apostles. There are twelve living Apostles on earth today, called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. Will you hearken and listen to the words of the prophets?

All doctrine was not given through Christ to his apostles while in the flesh. Do you forget the Old Testament? It literally was a "testament" of the truth too, which is why it is called such. Those prophets wrote and testified of the coming and ministry of Jesus Christ and the truth and received revelation thousands of years before Christ was born in the flesh. Are we do discard all of that revelation?

Again, the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. It is nothing new. It is nothing different. It is the same gospel that Jesus Christ preached and lived. It is Christ's restored gospel, and all those who would persecute and destroy the saints are kicking against the pricks.

God has revealed his word from heaven in every dispensation of this earth, from Adam to Enoch to Abraham to Moses to Isaiah to Christ to the Apostles, and he hasn't stopped today.

Interesting you mention "Nobody is permitted to add anything to it, nor to subtract anything from it (Joshua 23:6; Deut. 4:2)." Do you not realize that everything from Joshua forward through the entire New Testament was written after Deuteronomy and Joshua? If what you are saying is true, the Bible today would only have Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua, and there it would stop.

God continually reveals his word to his people on earth, and wo unto those who will not receive it, who say we have already received and will receive no more. From them will be taken away even that which they have (2 Nephi 28:30).

Quecat »

Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:33 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Time and again our Lord Jesus refers us to the Word of Scripture as that source that cannot be broken, and He directs us to the Word of His Apostles (the New Testament). He says, "If you continue in My Word, then ye shall know the truth" (John 8:31). So also our Lord declares that people will be drawn to faith in Him through the word of His Apostles ("through your word" John 17:20).
There can be no development of or additions to doctrine because all Christian truth was given to the Church by our Lord through His Apostles, as a finished, complete and perfect revelation, fixed for all time. It neither needs improvement nor is capable of improvement.
Christ's mandate in Matt. 28:18-20 extends over the entire New Testament era to Judgment Day. According to our Lord's commission, the Church is to teach the nations all things whatsoever Christ has commanded. Christ indicates clearly in these passages that the church has His doctrine in the word He has given and entrusted to His Apostles, who in turn set down this revelation in written form in the New Testament.

The Apostles themselves insisted on the finality of the revelation entrusted to them by Jesus Christ. Paul frequently exhorts the churches to retain the doctrine which he had "handed over" to them (that is the literal meaning of the word "tradition"). He writes:
"Therefore, brothers, stand firm, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or our letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). Paul also refers to the future and warns, "After my departure grievous wolves shall enter among you, not sparing the flock. Also from your very own men will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:29-30).
Paul left no room for interim theology, or conditioned revelation. "Keep this commandment...until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim. 4:1ff). He even goes so far as to pronounce a condemnation to hell on those who would change the Gospel he had preached (Gal. 1:6-9; 5:12).

From history we are sadly aware that whenever men develop or claim to have "new revelations," these attempts always result in the perversion and destruction of pure doctrine. The most important point, however, is simply this: Once God had chosen to give His Word in writing, the Church of every age and in all places, is forever bound to this written divine revelation. Nobody is permitted to add anything to it, nor to subtract anything from it (Joshua 23:6; Deut. 4:2). With the Word of the New Testament Apostles, God's revelation of the doctrine to His Church is entirely complete.

The apostle Paul warns of "another Jesus whom we have not preached... a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted" (2 Cor. 11:4).
Paul also warns: "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8).

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:35 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

You said, "Often people of different religions use the same or nearly the same words to express widely different ideas."

This is exactly why the world needs modern-day revelation. God's mouth has not been shut today. He speaks to his chosen servants on earth today, prophets and apostles, just as he has done in every other age of this earth, and has given revelation resolving the many factions, divisions, differences, interpretations, and winds of doctrine that are thrown about in the Christian world, so that we may "come to a unity in the faith." There is only "one Lord, one faith, and one baptism" (Eph. 4:5). It is our job to seek out those that have been called by God to speak his word, and then listen to them, for God has said "by my own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same" (D&C 1:38).

Not every Christian church believes in what you call the "four essential elements." Evangelicalism believes that, but Catholicism does not. For example, Catholicism believes that you must be baptized, or christened, as an infant to be saved. If you are not, you will be damned. That is not just salvation through grace and faith alone. That is salvation through an ordinance and ritual of the church. They do not believe in "evangelicalism". According to your definition of "orthodoxy", Catholicism would also be labeled as heretical. The only churches that believe in your "four essential elements" of orthodoxy are those to which you belong, which is probably evangelical. There are many other Christian churches that believe otherwise, and are still Christian - they believe in Christ. Your view of Christianity is very narrow.

Revelation is the key. What God says is what is true. We do not have to try to figure these things out by ourselves. God has revealed his truth today. Because "where there is no vision [revelation], the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18).

Quecat »

Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:06 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

In conclusion, it is not always easy to tell the difference between heretical and orthodox doctrines. Often people of different religions use the same or nearly the same words to express widely different ideas. One of the marks of the "cults," in fact, is the use of Christian terminology to express non-Christian concepts. This is very much the case with deification.
How, then, can Christians tell the difference? There are four essential elements to an orthodox view of the relationship between God and man, and any doctrine which compromises or denies these teachings is less than soundly orthodox. These four elements are monotheism, trinitarianism, incarnationalism, and evangelicalism.

MONOTHEISM, is the view that a single, unique, infinite Being (called God) created all other beings out of nothing, and that this Creator will forever be the only, real, true God.

TRINITARIANISM is the distinctive Christian revelation of God, according to which the one God exists eternally as three distinct but inseparable persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

INCARNATIONALISM is the teaching that the second person of the Trinity (called the "Word" in John 1:1,14, and the "Son" in Matthew 28:19), without ceasing to be God, became flesh, uniting uniquely in His one undivided person the two natures of deity and humanity.

EVANGELICALISM is the belief that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

With these four criteria of orthodoxy in mind, how do the various doctrines of deification measure up? The doctrines of the church fathers, as well as of Eastern Orthodoxy, are thoroughly orthodox on all four points.

However, if we compare these distinctions to Mormon doctrine which explicitly rejects certain essential teachings of orthodoxy, it becomes plain to see that Mormonism is heretical.

Quecat »

Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:05 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

A monotheistic doctrine of deification WAS taught by many of the church fathers, and is believed by many Christians today, including the entire Eastern Orthodox church. However, in keeping with monotheism, the Eastern Orthodox does NOT teach that men will literally become "gods" (which would be polytheism). Rather, as did many of the church fathers, they teach that men are "deified" in the sense that the Holy Spirit dwells within Christian believers and transforms them into the IMAGE of God in Christ, eventually endowing them in the resurrection with immortality and God's perfect moral character.

Mormons are very explicit in their "scriptures" that there are many Gods; for example, the three persons of the Trinity are regarded as three "Gods." Since they believe that many Gods exist but at present worship only one -- God the Father -- at least one Mormon scholar has admitted with qualifications that their doctrine could be termed "henotheistic." Henotheism is a variety of polytheism in which there are many gods, but only one which should be worshiped. Thus, the meaning of deification in Mormonism is radically different than that of the church fathers who used similar terms, despite Mormon arguments to the contrary.

The Bible in both Old and New Testaments explicitly and repeatedly affirms that there is only one God (e.g., Deut. 4:35-39; Isa. 43:10; 44:6-8; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; 1 Tim. 2:5; James 2:19). Therefore. the Bible most definitely rejects any sort of polytheism, including henotheism. In practice, the question of whether the Bible ever calls men "gods" in a positive sense focuses exclusively on Psalm 82:6 ("I said, 'you are gods'") and its citation by Jesus in John 10:34-35.
The usual view among biblical expositors for centuries is that Psalm 82 refers to Israelite judges by virtue of their position as judges representing God; it is, therefore, a figurative usage which applies only to those judges and does not apply to men or even believers in general. If this interpretation is correct, Psalm 82:6 is also irrelevant to any doctrine of Christian deification.

An alternative interpretation agrees that the "gods" are Israelite judges, but sees the use of the term "gods" as an ironic figure of speech. Irony is a rhetorical device in which in which something is said to be the case in such a way as to make the assertion seem ridiculous (compare Paul's ironic "you have become kings" in 1 Corinthians 4:8, where Paul's point is that they had NOT become kings). According to this interpretation, the parallel description of the "gods" as "sons of the Most High" (which, it is argued, is not in keeping with the Old Testament use of the term "sons" of God), the condemnation of the judges for their wicked judgment, and especially the statement, "Nevertheless, you will die as men," all point to the conclusion that the judges are called "gods" in irony.

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:33 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

The doctrine of theosis, or the divine potential of man, was taught by Christ and his apostles and the early Christians long before it was corrupted:

1. "Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, 'I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High.' ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality." -Saint Irenaeus

2. "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how a man becomes a god." - Saint Clement of Alexandria

3. "The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.... Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." - Saint Athanasius

4. "He [Christ] became man that we might be made divine." - Saint Athanasius

5. "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods." - Saint Augustine

This doctrine is not a made-up fabrication. It is a restoration of the truth, as it can be clearly seen was taught and believed by early Christians.

Quecat »

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

It's entirely unnecessary for me to outline here the numerous shortcomings of LDS's book of mormon upon which the LDS church bases it's beliefs. They are well enough known.

Suffice to say:
Prophecies that fail are an automatic disqualification of a prophet as truly coming from God.
The LDS church misrepresents God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, the nature of their/his relationship one to another and his history.
God is entirely self-existant, has always existed and always will. There is no point in time in which God did/does/will not exist.

God does not contradict Himself as the LDS Standard Works do. For example the Book of Mormon states that God created the heavens and the earth, yet they teach that he was born a man on some planet out in the universe that already existed and that he has a mother and father who had a mother and father and so on back in time. Yet, how then could their god be the creator of the universe in which he was born into and only after a human life was exalted to becoming a god? The contradiction in their Scriptures shows its blatant error which give proof of its human authorship. The LDS Scriptures do not compare to the Bible on any level and are proven to be historically, culturally and doctrinally to be in gross error with known history, archaeology, and science, therefore it is shown not be be from God.

I would admonish you put away from you the false teachings of LDS and search out and cling to the true Gospel that was "ONCE FOR ALL delivered to the saints" Jude 1:3

Quecat »

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

Hesdanza said: "Yes, you and I are the spirit children of God. And Lucifer is a spirit child of God as well, along with the third of the host of heaven:

You can play your word games all you like, but the truth is, that in the above statement, your reference to "spirit children" names men and angels and even Lucifer as being alike and somehow actual children of God. This is NOT the case.

How about we look at the rest of Romans 8, which you quoted only in part.
Rom 8:9 says: " But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Rom 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

Do you understand what is written here? If we have not the Spirit, as is our state when we come into this world, we are not of the Father's family. We become children of God by adoption and are grafted into the vine. Not until we receive the Spirit can we cry Abba, Father.

God is not residing in heaven with numerous wives birthing spiritual baby souls with which to populate human bodies! We are created, NOT Begotten and we will not one day become gods, ourselves.

Hesadanza »

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:28 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

We are children of our Heavenly Father, and I will use the Bible. Christ taught that we are to pray to God addressing him as our Father (Matthew 6:9). Why would we do that? Because he IS our Father. He is our Heavenly Father, that is why we pray to Him thus. Christ referred to God as the Father many many times (John 14:6, 21-24). As did the apostles refer to God as the Father (1 Cor. 8:6). Moses and Aaron called God the "God of the spirits of all flesh" (Numbers 16:22). That's because he is the Father of our spirits. Again we are told we are "children of the Lord [our] God" (Deut. 14:1). We are told we are "children of the most High" (Psalm 82:6). We are told again that we are "sons of the living God" (Hosea 1:10). And in Malachi, "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?" (Malachi 2:10). Christ himself called God our Father - "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). Paul taught us quite literally - "we are the offspring of God" (Acts 17:29). I don't know how much more explicit it can get. "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together" (Romans 8:16-17). There is "One God and Father of all" (Eph. 4:6). And again, teaching us the difference between our mortal and heavenly fathers - "Furthermore, we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Hebrews 12:9). I think it is pretty clear from the Bible that we are children of God, and not in some theoretical or hypothetical sense, but in a very literal and real sense.

I have read the Bible, and it speaks the truth and confirms everything that has been revealed in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not a different gospel. It is the same gospel of Jesus Christ. And it has been restored in its fulness on the earth today. I have prayed and asked God if it is true, and the Holy Ghost has born witness to my soul that it is true, and I will not deny it.

"And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye - for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness" (2 Nephi 33:10-11).

Quecat »

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:15 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

Sorry Hesadanza " But, THAT is not what Christ, or the early Christians, taught".

We are not "spirit children" of God nor is Lucifer.
I pray that the Lord would open your eyes and that you'd turn away from these man-made myths and recognize Christ for who He truly is. Perhaps, less listening to your "spiritual leaders" and much more reading of the Bible would be of benefit.

Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel, Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

There is no "other" gospel that can be legitimately added to the canon of the Bible
Come out from this false hope. God was not once as we are now, nor does he have wives, nor will we some day be elevated to godhood, ourselves. That is a false teaching straight from the pit of hell.

I plead with you Hesadanza, pray for guidance and look at these matters afresh. There really is nothing less than your immortal soul at stake!

Hesadanza »

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

The LDS Church has the restored original teachings and ordinances that Jesus Christ himself instituted when he was here in the flesh. It was only until several hundred years later that apostate church leaders, having lost the authority and revelation of God, tried to muddle together what was to become known "mainstream" Christianity today. But it is not what Christ, or the early Christians, taught.

We are all sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father, who is God. Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. Yes, you and I are the spirit children of God. And Lucifer is a spirit child of God as well, along with the third of the host of heaven, who all rebelled against the Father and were cast out of heaven for doing so (Revelations 8:10, Isaiah 14:12). That is true historical biblical Christianity.

setyoufree »

Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:36 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

Jesus said, "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32
Mormonism has led many away from the true gospel and into an even more demanding form of religion than Old Testament legalism with its added ordinances (do's and don'ts) pawned off on the world as a restoration of the true gospel. It is nothing of the sort! Mormonism is more akin to polytheistic Greek paganism than anything biblical. Take for instance the identity of Jesus in Mormon teaching: Along with Lucifer, Jesus is the spirit offspring of the Father (therefore Jesus and Satan are literally brothers) who by obedience earned his elevated position. This is not historical, biblical Christianity!

Hesadanza »

Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:22 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

It is not enough to just believe and have faith in Christ. We must also DO what he has asked us to do. For that is why He gave us commandments.

anniefourjesus »

Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:53 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

The Word of God says, no one can say, Jesus is Lord, except by The Holy Spirit. When Mitt is saying, Jesus is my Lord and my Savior, this is not for me to judge; I will want to observe his walk and not just his talk, no one in this life is perfect, Jesus is perfecting us.

Jesus also states, that "I have other flocks that you know nothing about" so I tend to want to be careful of saying, who belong to the Lord and who don't.
He lays it down, if you deny the Son, you deny the Father and vice versa. Jesus told us the Holy Spirit was coming and yet today, people deny The Holy Spirit is God and so many churches deny HIS power.
It is that very power that is the strength of the body of Christ. Jesus tells us, in the end He will separate the goats from the sheep. He also states, whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.
I pray Thy Kingdom Come Lord and Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

It is not about us folks, it is all about Jesus. Let's get our eyes off ourselves and onto our glorious Lord!
In His Service, Annie

anniefourjesus »

Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:43 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

In Acts, Peter gives a powerful message of the Gospel and the peoples response to the message was this: Acts 2:37

Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I do not believe that this is an "if you feel like it statement". Jesus set us an example, He himself, was baptized. We are followers of Jesus Christ, we are not followers of a religion.
Baptism with water, baptism shows a dying of ourselves to the old life and being raised a new in Christ. I am a new creation, in Christ, supernaturally HE is living in me, abiding in me.

He tells us with the laying on of hands, we receive "power from on High" that power is the power of The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was promised to us, the body of Christ, Jesus said,"I will not leave you orphans, I will send the Comforter, HE will teach you all things and the Holy Spirit glorifies the Father and the Son.
We need to accept the WHOLE Word of God and ask the Lord to guide our steps and our teaching. He tells me, "no man will teach you, I WILLTEACH you!

If anyone denies Jesus Christ, in anyway, there is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved! Salvation is found in Christ alone, expressions of my faith, obedience, are acts such as baptism, evangelism, sharing the hope that I have; none of these things save me, Jesus did that.
Obedience is the key, trusting and obeying God. People ask me, annie, what denom are you, I reply, "I am a child of God" and I follow Jesus Christ (and I'm rather new at this too) but to me Jesus makes it so very simple and man complicates it.

God is more interested in our "being" than in our "doing"! Only God knows anyone's heart and HE can and does use anyone/anything to bring about HIS plan of redemption.
I really believe that we are all going to be very surprised at who is in the Kingdom and who is not.
Baptism for the dead: they are dead (that is an empty shell) the life is in the blood and the body decays and reverts back to ashes.
If people do not choose for Christ in this life, they are choosing eternal death. I believe God's Word is quite clear on this.
Some will rise to eternal life and some to eternal death. The body of Christ is being judged now and if we are being judged now, what is it going to be like for those who have denied Christ!

We need to ask The Holy Spirit to REVEAL God'sWord to us, and not rely on the interpretations of men!
For Your Glory Lord God! Annie

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:33 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 5

Let me try to clear up your misconceptions.

Those that have the law given them during their mortal life are fully accountable for the law before they die. There will be no second chance, and if they do not repent, they will be condemned.

Vicarious work will only work for those who did not hear the gospel or have an opportunity to fully hear it and accept or reject it during their mortal life.

There is no contradiction.

Quecat »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:11 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

The current Mormon doctrine on baptism for the dead is quite unlike what Joseph Smith first taught. As in other cases, the Book of Mormon contradicts much Mormon theology, and baptism for the dead is no exception.
In the Book of Mormon: Alma 34:35-36 we read: "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked."
In other words, those who die as non-Mormons go to hell, period. There’s no suggestion of a later, vicarious admission into the Mormon church.
We also see present-day Mormon doctrine contradicted in 2 Nephi 9:15: "And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One of Israel, and then cometh the judgment and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. For the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy . . . shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end."
It is unforunate that Smith abandoned his own, earlier doctrine. It would not have made the Mormon scriptures any more authentic, but it would have prevented millions of futile Mormon proxy baptisms from being performed.

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm perfectly content and happy following what God has commanded his church to do.

Quecat »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:57 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

Hesadanza, it is a dangerous path that you tread and encourage others to follow!
According to Heb 9:27, there is no second chance for redemption after death.
"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence." Luke 16:26

God DOES fairly judge those who die without having heard the gospel. There is no special provision required for them.
"God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life, according to the gospel." Rom 2:12-16 NLT

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:36 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

2 Nephi 31:
4 Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world.
5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!
6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.
9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.
10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?
11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.
12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

1 Corinthians 15:29 clearly shows that Paul knew that the church DID baptize for the dead, and they baptized for the dead so that those dead might receive the ordinances of the gospel before they were resurrected. They baptized for the dead because the resurrection is a reality, and that is the point Paul was making. For what meaning would the resurrection have to people who had never received word of the gospel, given a chance to repent of their sins, be baptized, and receive the fulness of the gospel. None. They would be resurrected unto condemnation.

In order for justice to work, every single soul who has been born on earth must have the opportunity to hear and accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is justice. Those who never hear it, will hear it in the spirit world and either accept it or reject it there. And they must have the opportunity to perform the required ordinances of the gospel that Christ established in His church.

"One dies and is buried, having never heard the Gospel of reconciliation; to the other the message of salvation is sent, he hears and embraces it, and is made the heir of eternal life. Shall the one become the partaker of glory and the other be consigned to hopeless perdition? Is there no chance for his escape? Sectarianism answers "none." Such an idea is worse than atheism. The truth shall break down and dash in pieces all such bigoted Pharisaism; the sects shall be sifted, the honest in heart brought out, and their priests left in the midst of their corruption. (Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ed. B. H. Roberts, 7 vols. [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1949], 4:425-26; hereafter cited as HC.)"

But just to be clear, we do not practice baptism for the dead because of what Paul said in 1 Corinithians 15:29. We practice baptism for the dead and other vicarious ordinances because it has been revealed by God through a living prophet today that we should do it, and we must obey God. God still gives revelation today, and that is why we do what we do. God commands it.

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:28 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

I beg to differ that baptism is the way to heaven..Only the baptism of the Holy Spirit, nowhere in scripture is it mentioned about the Apostles that they all jumped into the water and were saved by Jesus at that point because they were baptized, in fact if you were to examine the scripture, Jesus met each of these men right where they were at in their daily living, no mysterious angel came to them other than the Lord Jesus Himself. .. Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Quecat »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:09 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Hesadanza says:
"All those who have not had a chance to hear the gospel message and attend to the ordinances thereof will have that opportunity in the spirit world to accept the gospel or reject it "

!!??? Where in scripture is this?

There is no second chance for those who did not receive Christ as judgment follows immediately after death.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.
Luke 16:22-24 (the story of Lazarus and the rich man)

Paradise is the “third heaven” where God dwells, not a “spirit prison.”
2 Corinthians 12:2-4
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Paul and the Corinthian believers did not practice “baptism for the dead.”
1 Corinthians 15:29

Evidently, in Corinth there were those in the church who were being baptized for the dead. There is no condemnation of the practice here, nor is there any commendation for the practice. It's only brought up that they were doing it, and Paul was only pointing out to them that their practices were inconsistent with their beliefs.

This is the only place in scripture where baptism for the dead is mentioned. It is mentioned in an argument against the argument that there is no resurrection from the dead. To take this and to make it a ritual within the church would be totally wrong.

In the law of scriptural interpretation, we accept for common church practice today that; if it was taught by Jesus Christ, if it was practiced in the book of Acts, and taught in the epistles, then we accept it for general church practice today. Following this same criteria, regarding baptism for the dead, here it is only mentioned. It isn't taught as a doctrine. It isn't commended. It isn't taught as something that should be done. It is just an off-hand argument to teach the Corinthian church that their practice was not consistent with their belief.

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Baptism is an act of obedience to the Lord, not mandatory, but also not to be taken lightly. Baptism with water is an outward symbol to public eyes that you know and trust in what Jesus did. The following was a statement that Jesus said after He was already baptised with water.... There are other statements that Jesus says that asks or tells us how can we be baptised with the baptism that He was going to endure.

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

excuse my last comment, life should have been the spirit was breathed into them...

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Jhn 20:21
So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
Jhn 20:22
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
Jhn 20:23
"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

But Hesadanza you have the wrong baptism, the baptism of water was given by man but the baptism that Jesus had done to Him after the water was the baptism of the Holy Spirit, The first breath that was given unto man was when God breathed life into man and then man sinned, this was death, for man will surely die from eating of the fruit, then Jesus breathed life into the nostrils, reference of scripture will follow

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Baptism is, and always will be, the gate by which one enters the strait and narrow way leading to the kingdom of god. It is required of all, and always has been in the church of Jesus Christ. (2 Nephi 31:9)

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

The thief did not have to climb down from the cross to be baptized. That is the glory and blessing of vicarious work for the dead. All those who have not had a chance to hear the gospel message and attend to the ordinances thereof will have that opportunity in the spirit world to accept the gospel or reject it and their ordinance work will be done vicariously for them in the House of the Lord.

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I will answer one, Quecat, as there is not enough space here for all of them. But if you want to address specific questions, I'll address those too.

"Why did the angel take Nephi Plates back to heaven? Do they not belong with man? Would not their existence prove once for all that Mormonism is truth? God allowed the Jews to carry the 10 commandments for several centuries in their original physical form, written by the finger of God Himself!"

The angel Moroni took the plates back to heaven because that is what he wanted to do, probably being commanded of the Lord to do so. We don't know. He told Joseph that he was going to take them back, and after they were translated he did just that (Joseph Smith - History 1:60). But that wasn't before there were many first-hand witnesses of the plates, 11 of which are printed directly in the introduction to the Book of Mormon.

They do not belong to man, any more than anything else on this earth "belongs" to man. It is all the creation of God. If any man believes that he "owns" anything here, he is mistaken (D&C 104:14). And especially in this case where the book was the word of God, He took it back into his charge.

The existence of the plates would not "prove" the truth of Mormonism any more than if an angel of God appeared and told you directly. That witness comes only by a witness of the Holy Ghost, which testifies of the truth of all things. God still requires faith of His people. Faith is having a hope for things not seen, which are true (Heb. 11:1, John 20:29).

We don't have the original tablets of the 10 commandments or original Bible transcripts today to handle, touch, and see. Does that mean you wouldn't believe the Bible to be true? No. It is faith.

Quecat »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Sola Fide

Question. On the cross, Christ told the one thief that "today you will be with me in paradise".
He did not require that the thief climb down from his cross to be baptized first.

Baptism does not save you. It is merely out outward and symbolic confession and affirmation of your faith.

Baptism is no more a "requirement" for heavenly entrance than is Confirmation, Endowment, Sealing, etc, in other words, not in the least.

As for works, works performed by a grateful heart in worship and praise to the Almighty are all well and good, but again, the works are not what is saving you, nor can they ever. We may be storing up treasure in heaven by our acts, but the only admission ticket is faith and faith alone.

Quecat »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

It should probably be noted that there are many folks sitting in the pews of many churches, that do not affirm the teachings of their church of choice. That being the case, they have probably mis-labelled themselves, some to their benefit, some, to their detriment.

In all instances, it would benefit you to search out and attend a church whose teachings are truly in line with Biblical scripture. Spiritual compromise does not advance our maturation in the faith. Be a Berean. Search the scriptures daily to see if these things are so. Toss aside your guilt driven works and rest in the salvation of the Lord.

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I will partake of all the ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ which He has commanded that are required for anyone to enter the kingdom of God. Even Jesus Christ himself, being perfect, needed to be baptized to fulfill the requirements of the law of the gospel. Faith without works is dead. Read James 2. You will get nowhere if you just believe but do nothing about it, and that goes for every aspect of life as well.

Quecat »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I would like an answer to these questions as well.
http://www.bible.ca/mor-questions.htm

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

go to the following link, you see, the Bible was written by revelation and inspiration from God to man while anything beyond the Bible is man written, if man writes without witness's to the revelation given or by selfish desire then there aren't witness, but a false prophet. Please go to the following link and research it further Hesadanza, I will pray for you as well. It's not that I am saying you aren't a Christian, but it's not by what you have done that saves you, It's by the blood of the one and only Savior Jesus Christ that has given salvation and reconciled us to God. http://www.4witness.org/mormon/jwldschr.php

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Hesadanza, when you pass from this earth, and go to stand before the throne of judgement at Jesus' feet, and He were to ask you a question of why should He let you into heaven, what would your response be? after answerring this to yourself, looke up the following verses Ephesians 2:8-9

Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I'm a Mormon, and I am Christian. It is His church. I will forever worship Jesus Christ as the only Savior and Redeemer, who died on the cross so that I may be forgiven of my sins, and who resurrected on the third day and broke the bands of death for all.
http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b3bc55cbf541229058520974e44916a0/?vgnextoid=e1fa5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=735b862384d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____

I Believe in Christ
Hymns, I Believe in Christ, no. 134

1. I believe in Christ; he is my King!
With all my heart to him I’ll sing;
I’ll raise my voice in praise and joy,
In grand amens my tongue employ.
I believe in Christ; he is God’s Son.
On earth to dwell his soul did come.
He healed the sick; the dead he raised.
Good works were his; his name be praised.

2. I believe in Christ; oh blessed name!
As Mary’s Son he came to reign
’Mid mortal men, his earthly kin,
To save them from the woes of sin.
I believe in Christ, who marked the path,
Who did gain all his Father hath,
Who said to men: “Come, follow me,
That ye, my friends, with God may be.”

3. I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God!
My feet he plants on gospel sod.
I’ll worship him with all my might;
He is the source of truth and light.
I believe in Christ; he ransoms me.
From Satan’s grasp he sets me free,
And I shall live with joy and love
In his eternal courts above.

4. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme!
From him I’ll gain my fondest dream;
And while I strive through grief and pain,
His voice is heard: “Ye shall obtain.”
I believe in Christ; so come what may,
With him I’ll stand in that great day
When on this earth he comes again
To rule among the sons of men.

Text: Bruce R. McConkie, 1915–1985. © 1972 IRI
Music: John Longhurst, b. 1940. © 1985 IRI

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:50 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

If you give someone a thumbs down you should be required to give a reason for the action with scripture to back up the reason.... thank you...

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:45 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Do you really want either of those characteristics in a president?
Christ left for Himself many eye-witnesses to the truth that He imparted to us.
He did not hide his truth in a secret place, buried in a hill and mysteriously translated in private by one man and his hangover.
Mormons are not Christians. Mormons need to be saved.
Maranatha!

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:44 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

For someone to believe that a notorious drunkard, in this case, LDS founder Joseph Smith, was divinely guided to dig up magical golden tablets in the woods, and was assisted by Michael the Archangel to translate them into what is now considered Mormon scripture (after which Michael and the tablets disappeared, or some such), speaks of extreme gullibility or capitulation to pack-mentality.

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:43 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

The LDS church has pronounced numerous prophecies over it's history, all of which have failed to come true; case in point, the many dates in the past that they set for the return of Christ or their claim that their membership was the 144,000 mentioned in the Bible and the fact that they had to revise their eschatology when their membership exceeded 144,000.

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:42 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken.

signsofprogress »

Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:42 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

And if you say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?