Some ministers being probed for alleged financial misconduct said they will cooperate with a Senate investigation. But they question whether the request for their financial records is overstepping government authority into religion.
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(Photo: AP Images / Gene Blythe)In a file photo Bishop Eddie Long, of the New Birth Missionary Baptist Church, in Lithonia, Ga. gestures during an interview Jan. 18, 2007, in Lithonia. Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Ia., top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, said Tuesday Nov. 6, 2007, he's investigating finances of six well-known TV minister, including Long
Bishop Eddie Long, senior pastor of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Lithonia, Ga., and one of the six high-profile ministers being investigated, called Sen. Charles Grassley's request unjust and "an attack on our religious freedom and privacy rights" during the church’s service Sunday, according to The Associated Press.
It was Long's first comment beyond the statement he issued saying he would cooperate since Grassley, the top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, sent letters to the ministers on Nov. 5 asking for financial statements.
The Rev. Creflo Dollar, who leads World Changers Church International in College Park, Ga., already released some information about his and his church's finances. The minister’s 30,000-member church took in $69 million in 2006, according to a brief report his church showed The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
"I generally don't make this public," Dollar said, as reported by the local newspaper.
With big perks, such as Rolls-Royces, private jets and multi-million-dollar homes, that seem to come with being a popular preacher on TV, Dollar said he understands the senator's worries as the investigation evaluates whether the ministers are using their nonprofit status to enrich themselves. The six televangelists preach what critics call the prosperity gospel, a highly criticized theology that teaches wealth is a sign of God's blessing.
But Dollar is also concerned that the government may be intruding into religion.
"First of all, it's a miscalculated assumption that those things were purchased with the church's money," Dollar told CNN about his expensive home, private jet and $2.5-million Manhattan apartment. He said his ministry has been an "open book" and complies with the IRS.
Although the church gave Dollar a Rolls-Royce, which is largely used for special occasions, his income is separate from the church's and provided by businesses he owns and from investments and real estate, he told the local newspaper.
"Without a doubt, my life is not average," Dollar said. "But I'd like to say, just because it is excessive doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong."
"The issue is, what route did you use to get that excess?" he noted.
The prosperity preacher argues that "Jesus died for us so we can have a type of life that experiences peace and prosperity," according to CNN.
However, Grassley, a Christian, has a different take.
"Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem on a donkey," Grassley told The Los Angeles Times. "Do these ministers really need Bentleys and Rolls-Royces to spread the Gospel?"
Nevertheless, the investigation doesn't concern doctrinal issues, Grassley has said.
"I'm just interested in not the personality, not the preaching of these people ... [but] are the laws being followed," he said on CNN.
Religious organizations are generally exempt from federal taxes, but are required to pay taxes if they engage in for-profit businesses.
Kenneth Behr, president of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA), says Grassley is being very careful in his inquiry, not going into doctrinal issues and whether the prosperity churches are doctrinally sound.
Behr, who has dubbed the probe "The Grassley Six," says the government has the right to be able to look into churches and their financial records and that they are all held to the same standard as other nonprofit groups. Continue >>
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Victor Conedy is the only voice of reason I have read thus far. The government DOES have to the right to review the finances of an organization that takes on the tax-exempt status by filing for a 501c. I am NOT in agreement for Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, Paula White, and others to use their tax-exempt status to facilitate their extravagant lifestyles.
Stop! Most of the comments are based on pure emotion, either for or against. Are you aware that tax-exempt status is given to an organization from the US Government? Therefore, the US Government has a right to see that an organization continues to adhere to the rules that were used to determine the tax-exempt status. An organization gets a 501c BECAUSE it files paperwork and asks for the tax-exempt status. The paperwork states that among other things, that the organization will exist for the purpose of some community benefit and not for the benefit of an individual. Unfortunately, there are no hard and fast numbers which would indicate what constitutes "existing for the benefit of an individual". In the 1990's for example, the president of the Red Cross was receiving a salary of about $436,000 per year. Excessive? Maybe, considering that the President of the U.S. wasn't making that much at the time. In that case, the salary went up for review and it was determined that it may have been a little much for the circumstances. Those who pointed this out were not against the work that was being done by the Red Cross, but in order to maintain a status of "non-profit" the organizations main focus needs to be to the needs of a group of otherwise disenfranchised persons. Same situation here concerning the church that has applied for and enjoys the tax-exemption. No one is questioning that any of these churches are benefiting the community by feeding the homeless or by providing spiritual relief. The problem is, since there are no clear cut numbers or percentages which would reveal malfeasance, simply "appearances" is all one can go on. Lavish lifestyles of heads of non-profits are in fact a violation of the tenets and purpose for granting the tax-exemption. Taking this as an attack on God's people or God's work is naive and ignores the real issue. Also, gladly calling the all charlatans is equally juvenile. Victor Conedy
i agree tatoolman40. as long as your intuned with God and you become fianacially stable use those mens to help as long as your lead by the holy spirit. and kaishinden79 the pharisses were rebuked because of the heart and mind set. Do you know the hearts of these men/women?
Flagged as inappropriate. show new book exposes eddie long homo sexual life SNAKES IN THE PULPIT WWW.SNAKESINTHEPULPIT.COM WWW.REUBENARMSTRONGSHOW.COM THESE PASTORS ARE BEING EXPOSE FOR WHO THEY ARE hide
to tatoolman40- didn't jesus rebuked the pharisees for their love of money & their hypocrisy. He also warned us of the 'yeast of the pharisees'. where is the line bet. rebuking & judging. I have notice that pastors, teleevangelist are quick to accuse & always point to sin when they are asked about issues but when somebody points to their(pastor's) sin, they use the 'ye not judge defense'? SIN is SIN & when are they going to stop their sin of greed & love of money if nobody is going to expose them. HYPOCRITES! the pharisees were insulted bec. of their sins & you have a sin of commission bec. you are defending & justifying!
ldgreen - I'm afraid that you won't get much of anywhere on this board unless you're willing to forgo any real proof of wrongdoing and summarily condemn all the pastors and teachers involved. It is true that many have expressed distain for what they perceive the accused teach, without actually finding out what it is, and have already condemned them for a variety of monetary, shall we say, indiscretions without any actual proof. All this to their own brothers and sisters in Christ......sad but true.
Our hearts should be on our relationship with Christ Jesus, not on the possessions of this world. If the Lord should bless us with good finances, then that's up to Him. We shouldn't be seeking after the multimillon dollar home, etc. We should pray about being a good steward, and giving to help those in need, and invest in those ministries that help spread the true Gospel of Christ to change lives for eternity; not this name it and claim it theology. Our true treasure is in heaven. All this on earth is going to burn. This is why Jesus said to die to ourselves daily; pick up our crosses, and follow Him. The flesh covets the things of this world way too often. It's a daily battle; our walk with Christ is a day by day, moment by moment event.
We need to think daily on what Christ pulled us out of; what He saved us from, and what He continually is cleaning from our lives as we bring it to Him. We need to think upon the love He gave, and continues to give even though we don't merit it for a second.
We need to be thankful, and content in what He has decided to give us in our lives. But even morte so His wonderful Grace and Mercy, and Love.
Praises and Honor and Glory and Wisdom and Power be to Our Lord and Savior Jesu
Idgreen:
Many Born again Christians on this board express disdain for this name it and claim it "seed faith" theology because it is a false doctrine. They make a doctrine out of one Biblical Scripture verse, a principle, or promise, and then never leave that point. They don't expound on the whole context and heart of the Scriptures so people will grow in their faith. Rather than teaching the whole counsel of God, they teach that if you give to their ministry, then God will multiply it 100 fold. They peddle God's Word for gain, and this is not what God calls teachers of the Word to do. It is definitely a heretical teaching that is extrabiblical and for one to say that disdain for this false doctrine and abheration of the Truth is a comparison of Christians persecuting other Christians as you implied on your post is distorting the issue.
Yes, we as believers should be united in sound doctrine; not on all these other false doctrines including name it and clai it, and blab it and grab it theology that seem to pop up everywhere in Christian bookstores, on TBN, etc with a secular humanistic, and seeker friendly tone to them to tickle the hearers and readers ears.
God does not promise everyone to be rich here on earth. He has however promised us a relationship with Him, He has also promised that He would supply all of our need (not our greed) if we should put our total faith and confidence in His One and Only Son Jesus Christ. He promised that He would go and prepare a place for us and that we (who have given our lives to Christ) would spend eternity worshipping Him and fellowshipping with HIm.
We need to be like the Bereans who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what is being taught to is biblically true.
Any who claims to be a Christian and persucutes others christians is not exhibiting the love of Jesus. Unbelievers in the U.S. Need to see some christians with wealth just so they will listen to the message. The bible says in proverb,"Wisdom said I is better than strength, but a poor man's wisdom is dispised. So the idea is for Se. Grassley is to pray and seek Gods counsel on the matter and not act like Saul of Tarsus who had a zeal for God without knowledge. Homosexual are claiming to be christian when the Bible clearly states that behavior is to be repented of in order to enter the Kingdom of God. People who criticize the prosperity message are usually evangelicals who are predominantly white anglo saxon protestants who's ancestors owned slaves. These people also used the bible to promote the ill treatment of Black people in general. So we need people like Creflo,Eddie Long, Fred Price and such to first teach us that we have endured poverty for too long. Blacks weren't allowed to worship with whites so we started our own church and have our own leaders. If Sen. Grassley loves Jesus who he has not seen he can only prove it by ignore the racist impulse to say thins like,"Do they really need all that". What does he mean by they. As if he is talking about an inferior class of people. In God's eyes all have sinned and fall short. As a government representative he speaks only from sinful mans point of view-since congress can make no laws establishing a church or religion nor deny the freedom to worship. All denominations violate some portion of the BIBLE. So his inquiry is not inspired by God or the Holy Spirit. His inquiry is going to cause more harm to value of U.S. currency than he will ever know. I pray he sees the error of his ways like Saul and resign from politics or go into full time ministry but he can not serve to masters-it's clear he does not love Jesus or His people.
When an employee of a 501c3 non profit receives a gift over $100. 00 it becomes a private inurement issue and should be turned over to the non profit. This is the standard that people who work in the non profit world deal with constantly. Your donors always want to give you things. However, you are not to take it from them. Politely explain why it is not a good idea.
Have2sae, PDF, taylormaed, and Prophet: Keep teaching the truth. You guys all hit the nail on the head. Again I say for those who still think that God is our servant, and not our Master, as well as those who think it's ok to be high profile, preach a tickle the ears seeker-friendly gospel, and those who peddle the Word of God for gain:
Our hearts should be on our relationship with Christ Jesus, not on the possessions of this world. If the Lord should bless us with good finances, then that's up to Him. We shouldn't be seeking after the multimillon dollar home, etc. We should pray about being a good steward, and giving to help those in need, and invest in those ministries that help spread the true Gospel of Christ to change lives for eternity; not this name it and claim it theology. Our true treasure is in heaven. All this on earth is going to burn. This is why Jesus said to die to ourselves daily; pick up our crosses, and follow Him. The flesh covets the things of this world way too often. It's a daily battle; our walk with Christ is a day by day, moment by moment event.
We need to think daily on what Christ pulled us out of; what He saved us from, and what He continually is cleaning from our lives as we bring it to Him. We need to think upon the love He gave, and continues to give even though we don't merit it for a second.
We need to be thankful, and content in what He has decided to give us in our lives. But even morte so His wonderful Grace and Mercy, and Love.
Praises and Honor and Glory and Wisdom and Power be to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Forever and Ever Amen and amen. He paid the biggest price for our sins, and that alone is the pearl of great price.
nasdaq - What do you consider blasphemy? I ask because there is much out there that some consider to be gospel that others consider blasphemy, case in point would be Family Radio (Harold Camping), etc...
I am working on and let me know what you think and if you have any advice on to achieve this important goal.
I'm working on trying to eliminating blasphemy on the airwaves looking for suggestions on how to approach the Federal Communication Commission (FCC) and the Canandian Regulators for Telecom and Radio Services (CRTC).
Need the help of some powerful voices. Please go to this link and watch the video any suggestions or help will be great.
Thanks so much for your time.
Thomas Wurzburger.
Phone # 519-204-8495
God Bless.
www.hollywoodandgod.com
I ask you to take a few minutes and watch the video at the link above.
LETS ELIMINATE BLASPHEMY from the Airwaves.
or organize a one day boycott of tv, radio and theatre and send a message to the FCC and CRTC.
Taylormaed:
you as well hit the nail on the head. Thanks for exposing the truth with the intent of educating some who still hold fast to this "prosperity" doctrine.
Prophet:
"I don't need to hear a seminar on how to become immensely wealthy. I don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to get book after book on properity. Just a few scriptures and you're set. Malachi 3:10-12
Matthew 6:33
James 1:5
But, please don't corrupt the scripture from Malachi. If you give tithes and offerings for the simple fact that you want to be blessed....you wont be.
Concern yourself with your relationship with God, and let Him concern Himself with how much He's gonna bless you. Otherwise, you make Him into your image, and will be judged."
Right on brother. thanks for telling it like it is.
i had a wise man tell me once concerning this very thing ..."It's about the lost...not the loot." I thought it was funny....but seriously true.
taylormaed said:
These churches are incorporated as a "non-profit" organization with a 5013c tax exemption because they are supposed to be charitable organizations. They are breaking the principle of their mission statement. We critisize the Red Cross for their overhead but when it comes to these churches we look at religion. People from their congregation gave a tithe or a grace offering to the church for the continuance of the ministry, upkeep, and to take care of the pastor financial obligations. Anytime these minister receive a gift from their congregation they must pay taxes on the fair market value of the gift. I wonder did these guys pay taxes on luxurious gifts. I blame church leaders. Why doesnt this money got to missions or to building a christian school or college. Pastors are not CEO's according to scripture they are servants /shepherds. If they want to live the life of a CEO then start a for-profit company and pay taxes. When was the last time you saw a shepherd with a Rolls Royce.
PDF: That is EXACTLY my point! These ministers should have KNOWN all of this beforehand! If not, hire consultants to help! Hire accountants and lawyers if needed (and trust me, it's needed with a $69 million financial input according to Dollar). They CANNOT have it both ways!
CEO's of Fortune 100 and 500 companies have financial impact statements filed each quarter, and we can find out how much they make, per the FOIA act. Not-for-profit means exactly that - nothing else!
Prophet is RIGHT on the money!
taylormaed -
"When was the last time you saw a shepherd with a Rolls Royce".
Where do you think all the oil sheiks came from :)
These churches are incorporated as a "non-profit" organization with a 5013c tax exemption because they are supposed to be charitable organizations. They are breaking the principle of their mission statement. We critisize the Red Cross for their overhead but when it comes to these churches we look at religion. People from their congregation gave a tithe or a grace offering to the church for the continuance of the ministry, upkeep, and to take care of the pastor financial obligations. Anytime these minister receive a gift from their congregation they must pay taxes on the fair market value of the gift. I wonder did these guys pay taxes on luxurious gifts. I blame church leaders. Why doesnt this money got to missions or to building a christian school or college. Pastors are not CEO's according to scripture they are servants /shepherds. If they want to live the life of a CEO then start a for-profit company and pay taxes. When was the last time you saw a shepherd with a Rolls Royce.
I really do not think that these preachers are hiding anything on purpose. Have you considered that maybe they hide what God has given them from the eye of the public becuase people talk about them and slander them because they do have million dollar homes and expensive cars? How do you know that they are not telling their decans and other church officials and even church members about what they have? I do not think these preachers are stealing from people and I do not think they have anything to hide. How does anyone know how much of their own money they give into their own ministry and into the outreach they do. I do go to a church that we believe in prosperity and I think what people is getting wrong is that you do have to live right and seek God face and be humble in all of your ways. If you look at the background of many of these preachers they come from very poor and broken pasts. I truely believe that God has raised them up for such a time like this when they are going into countries that has never heared the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And I guarentee you that if you was to go and look through their records of their money and how it is spent, most of it would be in the Kingdom of God. I do not critize them for what they have but I respect them for the spirit that lives on the inside of them. And you know they do not just talk about money but they are winning millions apon millions for Jesus. So why can we not rejoice for all of the things they are doing right for God and all of the souls instead of bashing them for all of the things they have. To be completely honest its none of the publics business how they spend their money, we dont ask Christians who are sitting on the church pews how they spend their money and we dont ask the ones that are living in nice houses and driving nice cars and have way more money than they allow people to know how they are spending their money. Why dont we go ask Brittany Spears and Snoop Dog and the man over the Playboy Bunnies how they spend their money and I can guarantee that it is all for themselves and not all for the the Kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
sorry y'all, my computer got stuck, and I hit submit twice. I didn't mean to double to post.
Have2sae: amen and amen.
Prophet: thanks for clearing things up. Our hearts should be on our relationship with Christ Jesus, not on the possessions of this world. If the Lord should bless us with good finances, then that's up to Him. We shouldn't be seeking after the multimillon dollar home, etc. We should pray about being a good steward, and giving to help those in need, and invest in those ministries that help spread the true Gospel of Christ to change lives for eternity; not this name it and claim it theology. Our true treasure is in heaven. All this on earth is going to burn. This is why Jesus said to die to ourselves daily; pick up our crosses, and follow Him. The flesh covets the things of this world way too often. It's a daily battle; our walk with Christ is a day by day, moment by moment event.
We need to think daily on what Christ pulled us out of; what He saved us from, and what He continually is cleaning from our lives as we bring it to Him. We need to think upon the love He gave, and continues to give even though we don't merit it for a second.
We need to be thankful, and content in what He has decided to give us in our lives. But even morte so His wonderful Grace and Mercy, and Love.
Praises and Honor and Glory and Wisdom and Power be to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Forever and Ever Amen and amen. He paid the biggest price for our sins, and that alone is the pearl of great price.
Have2sae: amen and amen.
Prophet: thanks for clearing things up. Our hearts should be on our relationship with Christ Jesus, not on the possessions of this world. If the Lord should bless us with good finances, then that's up to Him. We shouldn't be seeking after the multimillon dollar home, etc. We should pray about being a good steward, and giving to help those in need, and invest in those ministries that help spread the true Gospel of Christ to change lives for eternity; not this name it and claim it theology. Our true treasure is in heaven. All this on earth is going to burn. This is why Jesus said to die to ourselves daily; pick up our crosses, and follow Him. The flesh covets the things of this world way too often. It's a daily battle; our walk with Christ is a day by day, moment by moment event.
We need to think daily on what Christ pulled us out of; what He saved us from, and what He continually is cleaning from our lives as we bring it to Him. We need to think upon the love He gave, and continues to give even though we don't merit it for a second.
We need to be thankful, and content in what He has decided to give us in our lives. But even morte so His wonderful Grace and Mercy, and Love.
Praises and Honor and Glory and Wisdom and Power be to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Forever and Ever Amen and amen. He paid the biggest price for our sins, and that alone is the pearl of great price.
I don't need to hear a seminar on how to become immensely wealthy. I don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to get book after book on properity. Just a few scriptures and you're set. Malachi 3:10-12
Matthew 6:33
James 1:5
But, please don't corrupt the scripture from Malachi. If you give tithes and offerings for the simple fact that you want to be blessed....you wont be.
Concern yourself with your relationship with God, and let Him concern Himself with how much He's gonna bless you. Otherwise, you make Him into your image, and will be judged.
I see your point, spirit-filled. But have these ministers strayed from that righteousness that they first sought? I don't know.
"I have never seen his rightous forsaken nor his seed begging for bread." That says nothing about being a millionaire...it merely says that God will supply your needs. Now, before you get me wrong, I have nothing against Christians being wealthy. But what are they doing with their money? If they were to lose everything, would that change their relationship with God? If the answer is yes, then their god is money. God doesn't necessarliy care how much money you make. He cares about your relationship with Him. But, I will say this, excessive money does tend to create an atmosphere of comfortableness and complacency. And that breeds false religion, apathy, pride. I would rather be poor, living a life of power and grace in the Spirit of God, than to be rich and dead spiritually. But I am like Paul:"Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:11-13.
I have lived in poverty for some time...and I've lived the middle income dream. I have learned that God is still God in either circumstance. And during both times, all He cared about was the condition of my heart.
Is it wrong to make $500,000 a year? No. Is it wrong to make $1.2 million a year? No. Is it wrong to lie to the people who give to your MINISTRY (not into your million dollar homes, BMW, Benz, and Cadillac cars) about what you do with the money? Yes. Is it wrong to not disclose that information to those who deserve to see it? In my opinion...yes. But whether it is legally or morally wrong or not, it sure doesn't leave a good taste in people's mouths when you aren't being honest or open.
"Without a doubt, my life is not average," Dollar said. "But I'd like to say, just because it is excessive doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong."
That's an assinine statement. Sorry if that's harsh for this board.
"Seek you first the kingdom of God and all of these things shall be added unto you" makes my very point if Christians will seek God then all of their spiritual, mental and physical needs as well as wants will be given to them by God. I believe these ministers are seeking the kingdom of God. They all started out with nothing and without all of these material things, but as they sought after God and all of him they recieved power and prosperity. Why would God want his children to do without when people who are not even Christians and do not even profess to be have expensive things? "I have never seen his rightous forsaken nor his seed begging for bread." Maybe thats why we are not seeing an explosion and revival of Gods glory revealed in this world, because no one wants to give their life to God because Christians think they have to be broke and not have anything. "If you give good gifts until your children then how much more should your HEAVENLY FATHER GIVE good gifts unto you." Its not a sin to have nice things and have expensive things and want for nothing in your life as long as God is number one and he gets all of the glory and praise for all that he has given unto you. "Let no man say that he hath made me rich for it was the Lord who maketh me rich." Heaven has streets of gold and walls of Jasper and Christians desire with their whole heart to be their with him, so why should we not seek first the Kingdom of God and believe and except our hearts desires while we are on this earth. It takes money to go to other countries and give Bibles, food, etc. and let me tell you broke Christians cannot get that done because they only have enough for them and theirs. To be honest I think that is a bigger tragedy than these people having all this money and fine things. If God can feed the birds and all of the other animals then why should we worry about how we are going to pay our bills, put clothes on our children, give to the ministry of God, etc. I believe our jobs as Christians is to be Gods feet to go to other people and countries, we should be his voice to spread the gospel of Christ and how he loves them, we should be his hands to help pick up the hurting and to comfort them,etc. and I am sorry you cannot go to these places without money and even if it is close to your home you still have to put gas in your car to go to that person. There is a spiritual law of seed time and harvest. If you dont believe it then dont go sow your time at work all week and expect money on payday for that time that you sowed. "Give and it will be given unto you Press sown Shaken together and running over"
"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." Matthew 6:19-21
"
Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. " Matthew 6:25-33
And by the way to recieve anything you have to BELIEVE by faith for it just like you believe by faith to get saved. The Bible says By his strips ye ARE healed and later goes on to say By his stripes ye WERE healed. And the Bible also states according to your FAITH shall it be given unto you PRESS DOWN SHAKEN TOGETHER AND RUNNING OVER shall men give unto YOUR busim.
These ministries do more for people in the area of feeding and sharing the love of God with them then most people. The Bible tells us that Jesus died so that we could have life more abundantly. And when Jesus rode on a donkey, they brought him one that had not been rode on before. And when Jesus was born they brought him francansense, gold and myrth. In those days that stuff was very expensive things and they brought him these things on camals. And when the soldiers crucified Jesus they were fighting over his garment because it had no seams in it so that meant that it was expensive, and if it wasnt expensive then why didnt they just tear it in half for all of them to have a piece or why did they fight over which of them was going to have it. So to say that Jesus was poor while he was on this earth is a deception. I have no problem with these ministers having nice things because the Bible says that God wishes above all things that you should PROSPER and be in health even as your soul does PROSPER! I would have a problem with this if they were just keeping money and stealing money but they are truely blessed and they help more over seas and in this country then anyone of the people who are critizing them for being blessed with material things.
I just feel that I need to say this to express the sentiments of a lot of Christians today. While I am a true believer that preachers are entitled by the Word to be given carnal things (money) after they have given us spiritual things (the word of God), but in the same light I am appalled at the lack of wisdom they use when it comes to the overly flamboyant use of these blessings. Even if their ministry financial records are in order, or even choose not to take a salary from their churches, I personally feel that if they wouldn't live so "high off the hog", with their personal finances, they could use some of that money for THEIR ministry needs instead of reaching out to the public or even their members with offering envelopes every single time they say GOD TOLD THEM to do something new in ministry. Do they need 10,000+ sq ft homes, drive Bentleys and fly in personal jets. Jesus spread the gospel (on foot or small boats) without any of that. This is what prompts the probing and questioning. You’re asking people living in apartments and small homes to give you their money while you’re living in mansions with yours. The devil is a liar! Let me tell you, the wool has started itching over the eyes of believers today and being pulled off. Thank God we are becoming less gullible to this "see how blessed I am because of all my this stuff" preaching any more. Stuff is not the validation of your blessed relationship with God. Ask the overseas persecuted Church, who feel absolutely blessed to simply still be alive, able to eat or drink clean water in the midst of religious persecution if they are blessed by God. Because of the superstar, living high preacher message, American Christian have this thing confused the only thing you’re taking with you back to glory is another sister or brother in the Lord. Not all this stuff. I believe God has allowed this latest probe to happen to show that HE IS NOT IMPRESSED with the superstar, celebrity preacher Era we have been enduring. It's all about God through Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. Humility and modesty is still in style with Him. He's the same yesterday, today and forevermore. Let’s get back to bringing people to Jesus and not to stuff. While I don't mean to sound judgmental, I just want to be spiritually wise by judging the actions of these preachers' spirits by the Spirit to see whether their actions are truly of God. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ, therefore, my prayers are, and will continue to be with them for their good. Thank you for this moment to get that out. Have a truly blessed day.
One thing that has always made me laugh is when these word of faith people claim to have been visited by an angel or by Jesus Himself. The very first thing that brings the 'yeah right' idea into my head is how they typically never say anything about being scared out of their minds when this occurs.
If Jesus visits you (take John for example) or an angel visits you (take all of the OT and NT), you will be scared out of your mind... it happens to everyone who is visited by the divine...
Prophet, thanks for responding; i hadn't seen you post at all today. Good to hear from you brother.: Actually, I didn't say that, I only quoted word for word portions of the article.
I think you should go to the link and read the 2 part articles backed by book quotes, and sermons she's taught. With regard to smelling something when evil spirits are around I have heard that as well. Some of the people who claim to be abducted by aliens, I personally believe are really being tortured by demonic beings - that's another topic. But, praise be to God, we have been saved by grace thru faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Anyway, read the whole article in context, at http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17c..htm, and it will hopefully shed some light on why so many on this site have commented that Joyce Myers is indeed "word faith" to some degree.
jc4me...
you said "There is nothing in scripture that they have an offensive odor except if they have not taken a bath, and those who are not demon possessed would smell the same way without a bath as well." that is true. But sometimes God allows us to percieve a spiritual event/being in a physical manifestation. Some people will smell something when and evil spirit is present. I've heard of people who hear spirits whispering, or have seen a "manifestation" in one way or another where someone who is not as in tune spiritually would see nothing. I believe that she may have been trying to bring across how she perecieves someone who is possesed.
.............................."
and y'all can read the rest on http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17.htm.
Continued article on Joyce Myers from let us reason ministries
"Speaking about trials she apologizes and states “that’s not a negative confession, I’m not cursing your life” (Life in the Word Mar.6 2003 Lesea Broadcasting)” This shows her word faith influence of not speaking negatively.
She also has some interesting views on warfare “Several years ago I found myself completely worn out from trying to fight the devil. I learned many 'methods' of spiritual warfare; however, they did not seem to be working ... I had fallen into the trap that many Christians fall into. I had the right teaching, but the wrong order ... I was feverishly applying methods I had learned - like fasting and prayer ... rebuking and resisting evil spirits ... empty formulas which wear us out and produce no results except maybe a sore throat” (The Word, The Name, The Blood, pp. 28, 32, 33 reference PFO article January-March 1996).
“Our warfare is a supernatural warfare you don’t fight the devil the same way you would a natural war. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal they’re not natural weapons but their mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. One of the reasons why I tell you talk back to the devil is because the word of God is supernatural weapon it is a spiritual weapon…”
Do we fight the devil or do we stand in Christ and he is to flee?
“Now spirits don't have bodies, so we can't see them. Okay? There probably is, I believe there is, and I certainly hope there is several angels up here this morning that are preaching with me. I believe that right before I speak some anointed statement to you, that one of them bends over and says in my ear what I'm supposed to say to you.” Joyce Meyer (Witchcraft & Related Spirits (Part 1) - 2 A-27 Audiotape) http://www.bereanfaith.com/heresy.php?action=aquote&id=14"
Continued article on Joyce Myers from letusreason ministries-
"She makes her position clear by saying “words are containers for power they carry creative or destructive power positive or negative power so we need to be speaking right things over our lives and about our futures if we expect to have good things happen because what you say then is what you probably end up having tomorrow. We need to warfare with words. I believe that praise and worship is warfare. We talked about this last night, how when we are praising and worshipping God that there's actually a, an odor that comes off of us that is offensive to the enemy. And I don’t know if you ever had the opportunity to smell a demon possessed person but I have, and I tell you it is a stench; and I was saying about that this morning and I thought you know people that are demon possessed have an offensive odor to me and I’m glad because I am holy ghost possessed that I’ve got an offensive odor to the devil.” (broadcasted on the Bible Answerman Jan.2003)
Despite the concept of words being in control, there have been many who have overcome some very unhealthy lives whether they be words spoken about them or where they came from. There is nothing in scripture that they have an offensive odor except if they have not taken a bath, and those who are not demon possessed would smell the same way without a bath as well. And yes, I have had the opportunity to smell and converse with demonized people and one cannot immediately tell by smell.
Her appeal to money to be given to her ministry is from the prosperity teaching that originated with Oral Roberts. “Sowing and reaping is a spiritual law...Sow generously and you will reap generously.” (Joyce Meyer, “What Does Your Future Hold” May 21, 2004)
“We need to claim as much of that inheritance as we possibly can...One of the things you can do right now is speak positive things about your future right now.” (ibid.)
She says “I've got to keep the anointing on my life. I can't keep it on my life unless I'm a giver” (May 14, 2000) (insinuating money and other things). Clearly this is a word faith view. Jesus said he would never leave nor forsake us, poor or rich, giving or not."
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17.htm
Joyce Meyer
-Are you paying attention-
"..........Word Faith Teaching
Meyer, in her book, writes, “Words are containers for power” (The Name, The Word, The Blood, p. 37). This is typical Copeland/ Hagin faith talk. She has promoted this as well on her TV broadcast. “Prov.18:21 this could be a life hanging scripture “death and life are in the power of the tongue. And they who indulge in it shall eat the fruit of it for death or life.” The ad following for her audio series “Is your mouth saved.” The advertise says we all have the ability to speak life or death to not only other people but to ourselves as well. “Will help you to take inventory of what you’ve been saying and begin speaking faith filled words that will bring to pass God's good plan for your life.” (May 14, 2000 LeSea broadcasting)
“But you cannot throw out positive confession, and you cannot throw out all the faith teachers, and you cannot throw out positive thinking. And you cannot get rid of those kinds of things because they're in the Bible from one end of it to the other.” (Joyce Meyer, PFO Quarterly Journal, April-June 2002, p. 6. Withcraft and Related Spirits, pt. 1, sides 1 and 2)
Meyer was at the Mega Fest 2004 with: Creflo Dollar, Paula White, Juanita Bynum, Bishop Eddie Long, and Bishop T. D. Jakes.
By the way: Dollar believes we are little gods as does Eddie Long. Bynum thinks she is a prophetess who can pass on the anointing to anything she wants. T. D. Jakes does not believe in the Trinity and teaches psychology. White is a prosperity teacher who has a mixture of various aberrant trendy doctrines. The word faith associations do rub off on her teachings, this is why she is comfortable to be speaking with these people. "
jc4me - It's pretty obvious that you are going to keep claiming all manner of things without proof. Judging all these people before they have been found guilty of anything, and claiming they are heretics. You refuse to get any real information but would rather just keep going around in circles and reading websites instead of actually finding out for yourself. At this point I say...... Mazel Tov. Say what you want. I'm done trying to convince you.
RBB:
"jc4me - I wanted proof of the many and varied fantastic claims you were making of multi million dollar homes, Lear jets, Bentleys, Rolls Royce's, fraud, theft, etc without documentation."
So far I've checked all my posts; please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember using the words fraud, theft or Bentley in my suspicions. I did use phrases such as fleecing the flock, and peddling the Word of God for their monetary gain though.
"By the way your claims of multi-million dollar homes........please look at the prices of the homes (yes, including improvements) I don't know if you've looked at home prices lately but where I live, they look normal to me, perhaps a little low. "
I also wanted to clear up a little fuzz and haze that you have added. Concerning my previous statements I made about a 7 or 8.5 million dollar home, it was made as a generalized statement concerning the "prosperity gospel teachers", but if you want to be specific it was about Benny Hinn, not Joyce Myers. He does own a huge mansion worth millions. My claims therefore, are not fantastic.
Now with regard to the Joyce Myers article, I would agree with you that if the church owns a home and allows a pastor to live in it, that's fine, but have you even seen the size of the palacial estate she apparently lives in pictured on the link? Not to mention, the other 4 homes for her family? I don't know if the children work for the ministry, or not; I can't respond to that statement, becuase I do not know that.
In addition, I think if you live in a place like California, a little 3 bedroom home will likely cost about 386,000.00; so yes, there is some truth to that, but a mansion that is 10,000 sq ft is not a home; it is an estate, and if the church uses it's 503c tax exempt status so the "pastor" and her husband can live in it; let alone purchase more property for her children, and pay all the maintenance on it, I also believe that the Feds have the right to investigate why there was such expenditure rather than lower price home.
I am Shocked, Shocked! – Of the six prosperity preacher families sent US Senate Finance Committee letters on 11/5/07 requesting information, perhaps some might use the Claude Rains Gambit. This is the famous scene in the movie Casablanca where Rick Blaine (played by Humphrey Bogart) asks why his restaurant is being closed. Captain Louis Renault (played by Claude Rains) replies, “I am shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here!” Whereupon the croupier hands him a roll of bills and says, “Your winnings, sir.” He pockets the cash and says, “Oh. Thank you very much.”
www.inthatdayteachings.com
truthandjustice1 - No, actually I haven't had a chance to read the article yet, that's why I never commented again. Sorry, I got a little tied up and involved here. I'll try to check it out tonight (tomorrow at the latest) and let you know what I think, if you still want to know.
jc4me - I wanted proof of the many and varied fantastic claims you were making of multi million dollar homes, Lear jets, Bentleys, Rolls Royce's, fraud, theft, etc without documentation. I do have to thank you for sending this. While we do only have the website's word about who paid for any of this, I would point out that my minister lives in a house owned by the church. The last church I belonged to, just a simple Baptist church, owns four homes around the church (the last one cost in the neighborhood of $600,000 two years ago) and the three pastors and their families live there (the fourth is kept for visiting missionaries for a place of vacation and rest). I'm not sure if you're aware of this but it's customary for churches and ministries to pay for housing and then the house and property belongs to and stays with the ministry, not to the minister. That way, it belongs to the church, the church gets the benefit, the church keeps it. So if indeed she and her family (who all work for the ministry) live in homes owned by the ministry, then that would be normal, and actually good for the ministry...........the ministry gets to keep the houses.
By the way your claims of multi-million dollar homes........please look at the prices of the homes (yes, including improvements) I don't know if you've looked at home prices lately but where I live, they look normal to me, perhaps a little low.
As to your other site, again no thank you. I would rather listen to the person and decide for myself. As you are so fond of quoting about the Bereans, they listened to the teaching and then checked it out against scripture. They didn't just listen to rumors about it. I can't suggest strongly enough that you should do the same.
RBB, I thought you wanted proof for the opinions expressed on this site concerning specifically Joyce Myers.
http://www.trinityfi.org/images/meyer03.jpg
The web link shows the source from the St. Louis County Records that shows pictures of the 5 properties paid for by Joyce Myers for herself and her family. According to the article, the ministry pays all expenses, including landscaping and lawn care, property taxes, and rehab work. Also according to the article, Myers, her husband, and each of her 4 married children live in the homes- free of charge. Now whether the site is making this up or not, I don't know. I have never been to the Myers family compound, but I'm sure that if this article shows the pictures and the info on the property as county records as a source, then i believe their must be some truth to the allegations made by the Senate. Here's the proof. You decide.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m26ad.html (this is the other link exposing some of her own quotes
No, just thought you took issue with Ron Paul's take on theology as contrasted to politics:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul244.html
I do try. Do you have a person or institution in mind?
No question - just hoping that your standards are the same regardless of the person/institution.
Yes I am, and..... you sound like a person with a question.
letsgetreal - Amen my friend, amen.
Wow RBB, that is really opened minded of you. Are you the same person who stated:
Actually the problem is that there are some churches that have abandoned the scripture for the traditions of men. They have publicly stated that God's own word is second to what they feel is correct. Whether that was a slow process over the last 2000 years or just in the last 10 years it doesn't matter, and it's never too late to turn from man-centered religion to God-centered religion.
You are right time will tell with regards to these "wonderful bible teachers". I'm going to be paying close attention. I wish them good luck in the Senate probe - they're going to need it.
Yes, you are right, Leaders in the Body of Christ need to be accountable, that is healthy, as we all should be. But the problem with some of what's been written here is that you've lumped them all together before any facts have been verified and branded them as Guilty of the most ungodly offences, then dug up old stuff from the Internet (which is defined as “Hearsay”) as proof. Don’t we live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty, (isn’t that Biblical and Constitutional).
The plain truth is that there isn’t a preacher dead or alive, who hasn’t said or done some really stupid things, just look at the great people in the Bible. No human has yet understood fully what God meant in every scripture, after all Jesus purposely spoke in riddles. The only thing we can look at is the “Fruit”, the results of their labor, souls and transformed lives in the Kingdom of God for eternity, to understand the true motives of their hearts. If we were to take anything anyone of us has said and have it recorded for someone to dig up pieces of it and drag us through the mud later, we would all find ourselves guilty of error.
Many of God’s leaders had tremendous wealth at their disposal: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Joseph, David, Solomon, Esther, Mordechai and Daniel. And they were expected to live according to their means. Some of you have let us all know how piously humbly you would live if you had all this wealth to disperse. Hmphh! God may take you up on that! I’m starting to wonder who is really being tested through the temptations and trials our spiritual leaders have to endure.
So many have written here about false prophets not preaching repentance and if you really feel that way, this would be a great time to start. We should each be on our faces before our most Holy Lord crying out for Mercy for our Leaders and ourselves. Instead of gloating over their suffering, we should be grieving for them since they are a part of our own Body in Christ Jesus.
May God bless each of you with wisdom and strength to endure the season of great testing we’re all about to go through, they just happen to be a First Fruits offering. Jesus said to Peter, “Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail. Luke 22:31-32
These pastors, tele evangelist ARE TOO LAZY to get a job. THEY SHOULD, so they can understand how it feels to lose a job, deal with a**kissers at work, politics, a pay that is minimum wage, deal with a job interview, work & study at the same time, economic injustice, & how to deal with a manager. OR THEY DO UNDERSTAND THAT a job is difficult! that is why their teachings are absolute religion, rigid rules, & vague verses that put people in bondage & make them burn out with christianity! that is why they lack compassion & understanding! They tell you to DENY YOURSELF, that they do not practice themselves! THEY DO FLEECE THE congregation!
jc4me - Thanks, but I'll get my information from listening to the actual person and deciding for myself. It's the only way to really know.
RBB:
I have one more for you on Benny Hinn.
http://op.50megs.com/ditc/hinnprototype.html
RBB:
here's more on Benny Hinn.
http://letusreason.org/b.hinn9.htm
RBB:
Here's some info on Benny Hinn:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/h01ad.html
Christians are 'Little Messiah's' and 'little gods' on the earth. Thus [Encouraging the audience]...say I am a God-man… This spirit-man within me is a God-man, say I'm born of heaven a God-man. I'm a God man. I am a sample of Jesus. I'm a super being. Say it! Say it! Who's a super being? I walk in the realm of the supernatural. Say it!...You want to prosper? Money will be falling on you from left, right and centre. God will begin to prosper you; for money always follows righteousness....Say after me, everything I ever want is in me already.
Source: Benn Hinn, on the Trinity Broadcasting Network, Dec. 6, 1990
The Fifth Estate, Canada's premier investigative documentary program, has done a program on Benny Hinn:
Benny Hinn is also a proponent of the Prosperity Gospel or the Word of Faith movement. As is implied by the name "Prosperity Gospel" the supporters believe that faith works as a mighty power or force. That it is through their faith that they can obtain anything they want – such as health, wealth, or any form of personal success. However, this force is only released through their faith. According to Pastor Benny if a person expresses their faith by sowing a sufficient monetary seed into his ministry - that person will be granted divine physical healing.
[...]
Benny Hinn is also a proponent of the Prosperity Gospel or the Word of Faith movement. As is implied by the name "Prosperity Gospel" the supporters believe that faith works as a mighty power or force. That it is through their faith that they can obtain anything they want – such as health, wealth, or any form of personal success. However, this force is only released through their faith. According to Pastor Benny if a person expresses their faith by sowing a sufficient monetary seed into his ministry - that person will be granted divine physical healing.
Under U.S. tax laws the Hinn Ministry is not legally obligated to makes its finances public because it is a religious organization.
Although most major American churches and ministries release financial information voluntarily there are no public records for how much the Hinn ministry makes or how that money is spent.
Benny Hinn insists that every penny is spent on God's work. But the fifth estate obtained confidential financial records from inside the Hinn ministry. These documents were provided by individuals who say they want the public to know how Benny Hinn spends the money entrusted to him.
The fifth estate asked Roddy Allan, a forensic accountant, to review the minstry's expense and travel records. He says, "I'm a mere bean counter, but it would be hard to persuade me that you had to incur that kind of expense in order to accomplish a business objective."
Source: Do You Believe in Miracles? CBS News (Canada), The Fifth Estate Nov. 3, 2004
Prophet - My problem is I really don't have any experience with these people except for Joyce Meyer. From what I've heard of her broadcasts, and read of her words, she seems like a wonderful Bible teacher. As to the rest of this stuff, I'm willing to wait until the evidence comes out to make any decisions.
I see what you're saying about Ceflo Dollar's attitude, but who knows maybe he's just upset at being targeted. Only time will tell. I like your "chicken" quote :)
To say that this inquiry is an invasion of privacy is bogus. If you want to be tax exempt, you have to be accountable for the purpose and foundation of the finances of your ministry. Why should these guys benefit from a tax exempt organization, if they are not evangelizing the world and helping the poor and needy with the money that is donated to their ministry? I think that the intent for the tax exemption, was to free up money to HELP people, not to provide a lavish lifestyle for the head of the ministry. Ya know, I believe that God wants us to prosper and be in health, but I do not even care about having a Rolls Royce or a multimillion dollar home. Even with my income, when I go shopping, I really do not WANT everything I see; nor do I NEED it. I think it is a puzzlement that these Christian leaders actually want all this stuff. Could it be that they just have so much money that they do not know what to do with it?? If that's the case, send it to Israel, help people in need. Why would they even care about having a Rolls Royce, etc.? No one is impressed, and it only causes them to be persecuted. Bottom line, God said, "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's." That means we are SUPPOSED to pay taxes. Get it???? Everybody else has to pay taxes. When I see ministries like these, I think, "Well, they obviously do not need money, I think I will give to someone who DOES."
Thank you, RBB. I understand about being punchy. I have days like that. And I just say "God! Slap me around a little and put me in my place." LOL.
The main thing that irked me about this article is that Creflo Dollar is so outspoken against what the government is doing. The government is just trying to make them accountable. As I want them to be too. So far, I've heard no other complaints from anyone. In the infamous words of Steve Taylor: "The chicken that squacks loudest, laid a big egg." Maybe that's what we got going on with Creflo. Only time will tell.
Prophet - I'm sorry I've been discussing this subject for a number of days now and I'm getting a little punchy. It's good to hear that there is someone who is willing to wait until the evidence is seen to judge what's really going on. I've been appalled at the things that have been said about all these ministers and teachers, and also those who listen to them. The name calling and prejudging have been extremely un-Christian. I'm glad also to hear that you've listened to Joyce Meyer and find nothing wrong with her teaching. I've been trying to get people to do just that. I've only been listening to her for a couple of weeks, at the request of a member of my Bible study group who wanted my opinion of her teaching. I've also found nothing wrong with it. But just try to tell anyone else that. I don't know what will happen with the financial end of this. I believe from what I've read Joyce has been very open about where she gets her money and how it's spent. I do know that a couple of the group have been investigated before and no wrong doing has been found. I personally would be uncomfortable living with the kind of lifestyle they have, but don't feel that is something it is our place to judge, as long as they are not getting the money illegally or immorally. I really appreciate you candor and Christian response. Please have a good evening.
Amen, jc4me! You speak the Word of God. What you said about the apostles is so true. Let us remain faithful to that calling. It's about the lost...not about the loot.
Prophet, although I don't agree with the 2 speakers who are your favorites, as I have told you before, I highly respect you, and I have to say that you nailed much of what needs to be said on the head; on that portion I do agree much, and I thank you for your clarification.
It is in Christ that we find the fullness of a relationship with the Father (God) which we all need, and will make us content.
The Apostles did not preach a get wealthy prosperity gospel or a seeker sensitiveone. Instead, they preached the true Gospel - that Christ gave His life willingly for us sinners, was crucified and He rose from the grave on the third day to give all who believe on HIm eternal life.
RBB
I apologize for stepping on toes. I have only hear Joyce speak a couple times. I found nothing wrong with her message. Does she have a problem with being open about where and how she is using God's money? This news article doesn't say. If she doesn't, and she is found to be in the clear, then I have no argument. You should read a post i put on the article "Are Televangilists fleecing the flock". That explains a little more on my view. I will tell you that a couple of my favorite speakers (Copeland and Hinn) are both on the list. As much as I like them, their actions will speak louder than any sermon they have preached. Their fruits will show what person they are. Ceflo Dollar is showing his fruit by, apparently, wanting to hide something. The article says nothing about anyone elses response to the government's request. I hope that their character will show that they are men and women of God.
But just because they don't teach prosperity, their dealings with the financial gifts to their ministry will speak what they truly believe.
Prophet - Prideful? You said it I didn't. You say you are a preacher. Then you should be able to tell if a fellow preacher is preaching prosperity or not. If you've ever heard Joyce Meyer teach then you know she doesn't. I'm wondering why you aren't correcting that misconception.
jc4me -"thanks for pointing out the errorsthat many of these televangelists lord over the flock of God. They fleece the flock for their own financial gain"
Where's your proof of these accusations? Without proof you are simply falsely accusing your brothers and sisters in Christ.
The Bereans searched the scriptures daily to see if what they were being taught was true. They were being taught......as in they were listening to the teacher, not just assuming they were right or wrong. You refuse to listen to the teacher (Joyce Meyer) to see if what she is teaching is true and so are not being like the Bereans. You accuse her of teaching untruth but yet you don't know, and you accuse those who listen to her but at least they listen to see if she is teaching the truth. Just a little hypocritical don't you think?
Not to be prideful, these people will continue to preach "Prosperity" and I will continue to preach "Salvation" and when we get to heaven and my crown is bigger than theirs...I hope they don't get upset. After all....i'm just gonna lay my crown down at Jesus' feet anyway. Why have they strayed so far from the message of the cross? They have made it unprofitable by their false teachings. If God is so into prosperity, tell me which of the apostles were millionaires. Which ones (John) were not persecuted and martyred? And thats only half true..John the Revelator was persecuted but not martyred. Even then, all were poor. They had little, if any, earthly goods. They taught the power of the cross! And that, my friends, is where true Christianity is proven. Not by the number of people you get wealthy, but by how many souls you have pulled from the fires of hell in His name. Proverbs 11:28-30 says "He that trusteth in his riches shall fall; but the righteous shall flourish as a branch. He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart. The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." I know a lot of poor Christians who are wiser, by far, than Creflo Dollar. His trust is in his money. What if what happened to Job happened to Creflo? What would he preach then? What if God chose to remove those "blessings" from his life? What would he say? What would he do? He certainly could not preach prosperity. Would he turn his back on God? Then his god would be money.
Didn't Jesus overthow the tables in the temple and whip the Pharisees for doing the same thing some of these people of God are doing?
Why is it that those who complain the most are the most guilty? If they can't be open about what they are doing with God's money, then they don't deserve the pedestal that we put them on.
"The prosperity preacher argues that "Jesus died for us so we can have a type of life that experiences peace and prosperity," according to CNN." the last time I read the Bible, it said that He died for my sins. Maybe I don't have the same version as he does. And money doesn't equal peace. Peace is an inward, spiritual event that is not affected by outward influences. God didn't promise us that we would be millionaires. He promised us we would be blessed even as our souls are blessed.
"Seek first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness, and then these things will be given to you."
Phillipians 4:4-13 says "Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."
Lets see...it says to let your MODERATION be made know to all men. it also says "And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."
Kaisinden79:
thanks for pointing out the errorsthat many of these televangelists lord over the flock of God. They fleece the flock for their own financial gain, and teach heretical teachings that if unchecked will breed cancer in the Body of Christ. We must be like the Bereans who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what they were being taught was true. Too many in the Body of Christ today follow attentively these motivational speakers and prosperity gospel teachers and because it tickles their ears, and they perceive it to be true (even though their perception is not biblically founded) they are blind to the heresy that lies within the messages; hence, dismissing the facts altogether.
GOD FOR PROFIT - CONTINUED
Malachi 1:6-8... "6 A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If I am a father, where is the honor due me? If I am a master, where is the respect due me?" says the LORD Almighty. "It is you, O priests, who show contempt for my name. "But you ask, 'How have we shown contempt for your name?' 7 "You place defiled food on my altar. "But you ask, 'How have we defiled you?' "By saying that the LORD's table is contemptible. 8 When you bring blind animals for sacrifice, is that not wrong? When you sacrifice crippled or diseased animals, is that not wrong? Try offering them to your governor! Would he be pleased with you? Would he accept you?" says the LORD Almighty"
Notice in verse 6 of Malachi chapter one God says, "It is you, O priests, who show contempt for My Name"; there you have it, it were the priests not the people, who were not respecting God as a Father and Master (if they were sons or servants then they did not show it, making them neither as for as God was concern). God says these priests showed Him contempt instead of honor and "place defiled food on"(v. 7) His altar (this phrase give us more proof that God was talking to the Levitical priesthood because they were the only ones commanded by God to offer the sacrifices on the altar).
These priests said to the people, "the Lord’s table is contemptible"(v. 7) causing the "whole nation" to be cursed because of their evil deeds (Malachi 3:9); this gives us further Scripture proof that it were the priests and not, I repeat not the people who God is talking about in Malachi 3. Because only the priests sins brought sin on the nation, the sins of the people were atoned for by the priests; therefore, it was not possible for the people not tithing to bring a curse on the whole nation. So, I say to you today where these self-appointed gospel peddlers claim the people were robbing God - its not the people but the Levites and the priests who were robbing God - read it for yourself. This makes Malachi a prophecy for these same ministers who claim the right of extracting "tithes and offerings" from you because they are during the same thing these "sons of Levi" were doing; and that is keeping the better part of your money for themselves and their pet projects.
GOD FOR PROFIT - CONTINUED
Here again in Jude 1, the Scripture points us to those who "run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit". They live in mansions and very costly temples while claiming to serve God and His Christ Jesus. Many of you know these super ministers and their up and coming students of their greed (see Rev. 2:14).
Jude 1:11... "Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah."
In Malachi 1:6-8, it is shown that God were speaking to the leaders (the Levites and Priests of Israel) who were defrauding and robbing God of the tithes and offerings not the people who brought the tithes to them (the people continued to give and tithe to them even while these corrupt Levites and priests stole from God - and the widows, the poor and strangers in the land). These priests were not giving God His due honor before the people by taking care of those widows and orphans in need nor were they sacrificing the best of the grain and livestock to God rather they were keeping the best for themselves to sell and increase their own wealth from the things tithed and offered by those who were required to tithe. Just think of the glory our God in heaven would receive if these so-called "tithes and offerings" ministers actually followed these old Covenant instructions by helping the poor and needy with your "tithes and offerings" money instead of helping themselves. Today, we as Christians are called upon in the New Testament (or Covenant) which requires much more in giving and helping those in need than the Old Testament. For, we as Christians shall be judged by our treatment of those in need and those well to due Christians will be judged by what they did with their money (Matthew 19:16-24; Luke 12:33; Luke 19:1-10 and Matthew 25 - more on this later).
CONTINUED...
These Levites and priests behavior had caused the people to be discouraged in that by saying the "Lord’s table is contemptible" (much like those today who take your tithes and offerings to buy for themselves the best of goods and services while refusing to help those who are not a member of their church); they were making the people give defected and sick animals for God as tithes and offerings; and taking the best of the livestock and grain offerings for themselves to sell for profit. Nor were these priests of Levi keeping God’s command to the Levites in Deuteronomy 26:12-13, where God said to them… "12 When you have finished laying aside all the tithe of your increase in the third year--the year of tithing--and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your gates and be filled, 13 then you shall say before the LORD your God: "I have removed the holy tithe from my house, and also have given them to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all Your commandments which You have commanded me; I have not transgressed Your commandments, nor have I forgotten them""
The Levites were commanded to receive tithes and offerings from the people; however, in the third year they were to share this tithe given to them by those who had livestock and land to tithe on with "the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow". In Malachi 3, these "sons of Levi" were not during this because they did not fear God.The below listed Scriptures tell us what most of the ministers today are about - these are the tele-evangelists, the super-ministers, and the mega-church ministers who believe building bigger churches are more important than taking care of the needs of the widows and the poor and needy in their community.
Notice, the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul says, "many" not a few ministers are peddling God's word for profit from your "tithes and offerings"
2 Corinthians 2:17... "For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ."
GOD FOR PROFIT - MIS INTERPRETED BY THE MAINSTREAM PASTORS!! PART 1
One of the main Scripture these peddlers of God’s word use to support their doctrine of demanding and extorting "tithes and offerings" from those who are seeking God's favor is Malachi 3:
Let’s look at one of the main Scripture that all these self-appointed gospel peddlers love to use: (those who peddle the word of God for profit and gain - see 2 Corinthians 2:17 below), these tithes and offerings extorters, ministers who follow the doctrine of Balaam (Jude 1:11); who claim these verses in Malachi 3 give them the authority to extort "tithes and offerings" from the people that are seeking to be saved from this evil and adulterous world; and that is Malachi chapter 3.
But, first let us look at Malachi chapters 1 and 2 to see who the word "man" refers to in verse 8 of Malachi 3 when God asks the question, these gospel peddlers love to quote when they want more of your money in their control; and that is "Will a man rob God? They never tell you who God is speaking to in this Scripture (they just speak about it in such a way to lead you to believe that God was speaking to you the member of their human organizations) - they have deceived you into believing God was speaking to you rather than to them - more specifically God is speaking to the Levites and the priesthood of Aaron and not the people giving the tithes and offerings to them.
to PGCFRIEND - when christ rebuke the pharisees for their LOVE OF MONEY, THEIR HYPOCRISY, BEC THEY WERE 'SO CONFIDENT OF THEIR SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS' was he PROSECUTING THE CHURCH?! SIN IS SIN DO NOT JUSTIFY OR DEFEND THEIR SIN by using words like 'YE NOT JUDGE'! they tell us to 'DENY THE SELF, WHILE THEY DO NOT PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH?!! HYPOCRITES!!!
Again, do not use the verse 'YE NOT JUDGE' to justify their sins. Why did christ exposed the Pharisees for their LOVE OF MONEY! christ did NOT JUDGE OR PROSECUTE THEM BY EXPOSING THEIR HYPOCRISY! the Pharisees (chief priest) were the onces who were 'quick to accuse.' MT 23:15 Woe to you scribes & PHARISEES, you hypocrites. you traverse land & sea to make 1 convert, when that happens you make him twice as hell as you are!' christ was even criticized for healing on the sabbath.
CHRISTIAN DO NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BET. JUDGING & REBUKING! TO JUSTIFY THEIR SINS THEY USE THIS VERSE VERY OFTEN! 'THE BIBLE SAYS 'DENY YOURSELF' WHICH MEANS EVERYBODY, THIS IS NOT TO EXCLUDE PASTORS OR TELE EVANGELIST!
Don't not tell me I am judging them bec. I am living from pay check to pay check! I have a simple car & live in an apartment.
I just googled Joyce Meyer and 23000 to see what would come up. Amazingly enough you have the ever popular $23,000 toilet in her home, the $23,000 toilet in her church, the 23,000 people that her ministry feeds weekly. Could it be that the information on the web isn't completely reliable.....say it ain't so. There will always people who will believe the worst, and judge first. Hopefully her brothers and sisters will wait to hear the truth and then decide.
I don't want to get into a debate about so called "prosperity doctrine" here but I will say that there are way too many church leaders reaping way more than they sew.
As far as government intervention is concerned I find it amusing how the government picks and chooses when separation of church and state is applicable or not. In my opinion, the church body sees how their leaders live and if they have no objection to it neither do I
Lastly, as far as I am concerned, as long as there is one homeless or hungry person within the community where a church is located that pastor has no right to prosper to the level some of these people do. That is just my opinion. I will not judge them. They will all stand before God just as we will and have to justify their poor stewardship.
PDF:
"And WHY would any church give its pastor (specifically referencing Dollar here) a Rolls Royce, which retails new for anywhere in the $300,000 range "for special occasions" when a mere Mercedes Benz (E class) which retails new for anywhere in the $100,000 range and use the other $200,000 for feeding the hungry, clothing the homeless, etc., or even spend that money for cancer research! "
I agree exactly, but we must not lose sight of the Gospel Truth being preached. Jesus Christ will change lives from the inside out. Jesus Christ said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father (God) except thru Him- John 14:6. Once people know Christ, then we can show the love tangibly with clothe/food/shelter, etc.
Are these men and women trully preaching the Gospel Truth in virtue and soundness when you can just look at the austentatiousness of their lifestyles which is in my estimation a bad representation of Christ? Christ who came to save us did not have a place to lay His head on, and yet the servant is greater than the master in the mind of these people?
It's ridiculous the amount of money spent on leer jets, etc.,
I guess then in the mind of some on this board who would disagree with me as well as many other's who have expressed the same disdain would think it's ok for pastor's and high profile TV "evangelists" who capitalize from their pulpit ministry for financial gain and teach a "health and wealth" gospel of prosperity to buy Rolex's and leer jets with the money made from the ministry or from books they've written to endorse their "7 biblical secrets that no one else knows" with motivational speaking on how to "better yourself" and how to achieve success", as well as (if true) buying what one person quoted on this board" a 23 thousand dollar toilet seat"? Not to mention the Rolls Royces, 8.5 million dollar mansions with the money God has entrusted them with to reach other's for Christ. Please don't tell me not to question the motive behind the minstry when all that is seen from the outside is how they just lavish it upon themselves; furthermore many of them do teach in fact that if you're not prospering financially there's sin in your life, or you just don't have the faith they have, etc.. It would be a great disservice to the Body of Christ to keep quiet on matters that should have been exposed and questioned within the Body of Christ to begin with. That way, the secular media wouldn't be "blaspheming God" due to the errors of some within the church. Oh, so i also guess that another Christian can't question another Bible teachers motives, for fear of being shunned for speaking the truth, because if they so much as test , and make a sound biblical judgement about a teaching one feels is false based on sound biblical interpretation, then someone else will rebuke them for saying something, and tell them they are "touching God's annointed".
Excerpt taken from a commentary by Roger Oakland named The Inclusive Gospel from www.understandthetimes.org
"........In the future we will see all faiths join together based on a common mystical experience accompanied by “lying signs and wonders”. The apostasy the Bible warned would be apparent in the Last Days is now fully underway. Only those who hold firm to God’s Word will be protected and delivered. This remnant of faithful believers will be viewed as old-fashioned narrow-minded holdouts who are a hindrance to the establishment of the “kingdom.” As Paul wrote to Timothy, in the Last Days:
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. [15]"
Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar and another one of the ministers have recently gone through IRS audits AND PASSED THEM. Why does this senator have to ask them for information that was readily available to them?
The Trinity Foundation is the one that came to the senate and complained. He has doctrinal problems with these ministers and have tried for many years to vex and harass them. When I heard that this group instigated the investigation I came to the conclusion that the Senate Finance Committee is being used by so-called brethren for religious persecution. There is no reason for them to ask any of the ministers that have passed IRS audits for anything. I hope that the head of the Trinity Foundation will see the light.
I do not espouse the financial teachings of some of the mentioned ministers. The Bible says that he became poor that we might become rich. The contect is financial blessings. He paid the price for it. For teachers to say that we must give to them to receive financial blessings is nothing more than extortion.
With that said the government has no right to harass anyone needlessly. They know what the compensation of these ministers are. In the cases of those that had IRS audits they probably have all the information the Senate Finance Committee is asking for.
Persecution of the church is coming if we do not stop it.
Can somebody answer why Joyce Myers couldn't get a $20.00 toilet seat instead of the 23K marble one she alledgedly has on her toilet? boy, the remaining 22,980.00 would have sure sponsored many native missionaries from Gospel for Asia, or maybe even bought several buffalo's and/or gospel tracks in native indian language, etc. Also, why didn't the pastor who had a "gift Rolls Royce" from his congregation trade it in and get a Honda minivan or something? Why does he have to have a leer jet? Will a Cesna due? Why must there be so much emphasis on the glamourous? Are these not the things the world chases? With all due respect, please don't come back and tell me not to observe these thingsand not question them, because if we in the church don'task these questions, then the secular media will.
akonda - Let's do take a look at these passages:
John 7:24 "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."
....When you just assume that someone is guilty that is a bad thing. But that is exactly what's happening here.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 - "I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
.....in order to expel the wicked sinner shouldn't you have to have some actual proof that they had done something wrong, something that is just being assumed here.
Ephesians 5:11 "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them."
.....Apart from all the good being done by Joyce Meyer Ministries and the countless people she is preaching the gospel to, and how God has bless her ministry, how are her deed fruitless? Also since it hasn't been proved in any way that she's done anything wrong, how is that "the darkness".
Revelation 2: 1-3 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands: I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary."
....First of all no one has proved that Joyce Meyer has done anything "wicked". If you actually give her a chance and listen to her teaching and find out about her ministry you might find out about her deeds, hard work and perseverance. Wouldn't it be better to actually find out the truth, than find out later you had unfairly judged a sister in Christ?
To whom much is given, much is required.
Not to mention the $2,000,000 "gift" Creflo received from his global church plants/organizations. If he gave a tax receipt for it, it's not a gift, it's fraud. Where, exactly, did those funds come from? Picking the pockets of those congregations? I hope not. What ever happened to New Testament giving: "according to what you are able." Jesus didn't get excited by those who gave out of their wealth but the poor widow. According to scripture, New and Old Testament, we are to give in balance with our income. Why aren't more of these televangelists doing the Rick Warren giving policy: keep a middle class lifestyle and turn the tithe around! They keep 10% and give 90% away. Awesome! Keeps egos small and marriages solid too. The Whites are now divorcing. How sad, especially for the poor, whom we're suppose to take care of. That's pure religion, according to James 1:27.
chica - Before you or Mr Marshall judge Joyce Meyer any more I would strongly suggest you go to her website and check out the massive global missions page. Her ministry is doing amazing work all over the world, including feeding countless children. The site is www.joycemeyer.org
PDF - Joyce Meyer Ministries has the finacial statements for the last 3 years on their website.
And WHY would any church give its pastor (specifically referencing Dollar here) a Rolls Royce, which retails new for anywhere in the $300,000 range "for special occasions" when a mere Mercedes Benz (E class) which retails new for anywhere in the $100,000 range and use the other $200,000 for feeding the hungry, clothing the homeless, etc., or even spend that money for cancer research!
This is why I will NEVER support ministries that do not make financial statements CLEARLY available to me or to the public!
Drew Marshall, Canada's most popular Christian talk show host, summed it up like this: When Joyce Meyer faces Jesus, He may hold up the bill for her $28,000 TOILET, and then show her how many children, by name, who starved to death because she had to have a marble throne with towel warmers and jacuzzi. Not to mention Creflo "living-up-to-his-name" Dollar's vintage cars and private airport. Nuff said.
Some other verses to think about.
John 7:24 - Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.
1 Cor 5:9-13 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them
Revelation 2: 1-3 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
OldFashioned - Here are some more passages that bear thinking about -
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Matthew 7:1-2
"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8:7
As for 2 Peter, have any of these people denied the Lord, or that he is God? Not that I know of.
The Lord has commanded us not to judge. He has told us that only they that are sinless should be concerned with punishing the sinner. Are we going to ignore the Lord or do what He says? When Jesus speaks in Mark and Matthew he is giving directions for us to follow. He is not inviting us to judge those that don't do them.
Churches can NOT preach politics from the pulpit. If they want to then they must give up their tax-free status and pay taxes, and stop being supported by taxpayers. The U.S. is NOT a godless nation. The separation of church and state in America means the state cannot sponsor, mandate, or support any religion. America was founded on Judeo-Christian principals and the laws of the nation and states are based on the Ten Commandments. The government in America is the citizens; it’s not a separate entity from the people. The government must remain secular, as all religions are a dogma. See http://tinyurl.com/2znnvl
zenodaddy:
Don't be afraid to test the spirits as some on these blogs do, and mistake it for passing unrealistic judgement. The bottom line is that if the gospel that is being preached is not the same Gospel the Apostles taught, then it is not the same virtuous Gospel taught by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and passed on to His Apostles in the first century church. Do not be dismayed; we are living in the end times, and Satan will try to deceive even the elect if that were possible with all sorts of lying signs and wonders. Hold fast to the truth of the Goispel of Christ. We need to avoid the doctrines of men, and completely follow sound biblical doctrine. Not one that appeals to the flesh, but one that teaches us to die to ourselves (the flesh and it's desires), to pick up our crosses daily and follow Jesus.
"One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me." MARK 10:21
JESUS SAID: "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: FREELY ye have received, FREELY give." MATTHEW 10:8
THE BIBLE SAYS: "But there were FALSE PROPHETS also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words MAKE MERCHANDISE OF YOU: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." 2nd Peter 2:1-3.
Perhaps in a new age, with a new gospel, we can ignore these scriptures - But the Word of God is established forever in heaven, and changes not.
zenodaddy - Wow this time you actually said "if". At least it's an improvement.
'And his next book, 8 Steps to Create the Life You Want: The Anatomy of a Successful Life'
It is the 'all about me' gospel... When will the Lord end this madness.. come on people... start defending your idols because this may just get extremely ugly.
If the Senate find wrong doing on the part of these 'ministers', then it will eventually wind up with the IRS and then possibly if not probably the Justice Department.
Greedy, greedy... Will come back to haunt them.