Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Sun November 22, 2009

Ministries|Mon, Nov. 12 2007 01:40 PM EST

Ministers Question Senate Probe, Defend Prosperity

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Behr, who has dubbed the probe "The Grassley Six," says the government has the right to be able to look into churches and their financial records and that they are all held to the same standard as other nonprofit groups.

None of the ministries under investigation are listed under the ECFA, which is comprised of more than 2,000 evangelical Christian organizations, including such major nonprofits as World Vision.

Other ministries targeted by the Senate investigation are led by Randy and Paula White of Florida, Benny Hinn, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland of Texas, and David and Joyce Meyer of Missouri.

Some argue that the ministers have built media empires, operating their ministries as corporations. Dollar's ministries, for example, include international TV broadcasts, Arrow Records, publishing, home-schooling program, entrepreneurship classes, fitness classes and SAT preparation classes among others. And his next book, 8 Steps to Create the Life You Want: The Anatomy of a Successful Life, is due out in January.

"They are taking market principles, setting themselves up as corporations, and yet they don't want to be taxed – they don't want to have accountability," said Fredrick Harris, a professor of political science at Columbia University, according to the LA Times. "They are blurring the line between profit and nonprofit."

Still, Behr doesn't think it's necessary to update current tax laws to require stricter rules and transparency on how donations to churches are spent.

"There are tremendous supporters for religious liberty in churches," he said. "You have to be very careful about the rules you place in particular organizations, especially churches."

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  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:33 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Victor Conedy is the only voice of reason I have read thus far. The government DOES have to the right to review the finances of an organization that takes on the tax-exempt status by filing for a 501c. I am NOT in agreement for Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, Paula White, and others to use their tax-exempt status to facilitate their extravagant lifestyles.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:34 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Stop! Most of the comments are based on pure emotion, either for or against. Are you aware that tax-exempt status is given to an organization from the US Government? Therefore, the US Government has a right to see that an organization continues to adhere to the rules that were used to determine the tax-exempt status. An organization gets a 501c BECAUSE it files paperwork and asks for the tax-exempt status. The paperwork states that among other things, that the organization will exist for the purpose of some community benefit and not for the benefit of an individual. Unfortunately, there are no hard and fast numbers which would indicate what constitutes "existing for the benefit of an individual". In the 1990's for example, the president of the Red Cross was receiving a salary of about $436,000 per year. Excessive? Maybe, considering that the President of the U.S. wasn't making that much at the time. In that case, the salary went up for review and it was determined that it may have been a little much for the circumstances. Those who pointed this out were not against the work that was being done by the Red Cross, but in order to maintain a status of "non-profit" the organizations main focus needs to be to the needs of a group of otherwise disenfranchised persons. Same situation here concerning the church that has applied for and enjoys the tax-exemption. No one is questioning that any of these churches are benefiting the community by feeding the homeless or by providing spiritual relief. The problem is, since there are no clear cut numbers or percentages which would reveal malfeasance, simply "appearances" is all one can go on. Lavish lifestyles of heads of non-profits are in fact a violation of the tenets and purpose for granting the tax-exemption. Taking this as an attack on God's people or God's work is naive and ignores the real issue. Also, gladly calling the all charlatans is equally juvenile. Victor Conedy

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:22 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    i agree tatoolman40. as long as your intuned with God and you become fianacially stable use those mens to help as long as your lead by the holy spirit. and kaishinden79 the pharisses were rebuked because of the heart and mind set. Do you know the hearts of these men/women?

  • Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:41 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show new book exposes eddie long homo sexual life SNAKES IN THE PULPIT WWW.SNAKESINTHEPULPIT.COM WWW.REUBENARMSTRONGSHOW.COM THESE PASTORS ARE BEING EXPOSE FOR WHO THEY ARE hide

  • Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    to tatoolman40- didn't jesus rebuked the pharisees for their love of money & their hypocrisy. He also warned us of the 'yeast of the pharisees'. where is the line bet. rebuking & judging. I have notice that pastors, teleevangelist are quick to accuse & always point to sin when they are asked about issues but when somebody points to their(pastor's) sin, they use the 'ye not judge defense'? SIN is SIN & when are they going to stop their sin of greed & love of money if nobody is going to expose them. HYPOCRITES! the pharisees were insulted bec. of their sins & you have a sin of commission bec. you are defending & justifying!

  • RBB »
    Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    ldgreen - I'm afraid that you won't get much of anywhere on this board unless you're willing to forgo any real proof of wrongdoing and summarily condemn all the pastors and teachers involved. It is true that many have expressed distain for what they perceive the accused teach, without actually finding out what it is, and have already condemned them for a variety of monetary, shall we say, indiscretions without any actual proof. All this to their own brothers and sisters in Christ......sad but true.

  • Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:31 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Our hearts should be on our relationship with Christ Jesus, not on the possessions of this world. If the Lord should bless us with good finances, then that's up to Him. We shouldn't be seeking after the multimillon dollar home, etc. We should pray about being a good steward, and giving to help those in need, and invest in those ministries that help spread the true Gospel of Christ to change lives for eternity; not this name it and claim it theology. Our true treasure is in heaven. All this on earth is going to burn. This is why Jesus said to die to ourselves daily; pick up our crosses, and follow Him. The flesh covets the things of this world way too often. It's a daily battle; our walk with Christ is a day by day, moment by moment event.

    We need to think daily on what Christ pulled us out of; what He saved us from, and what He continually is cleaning from our lives as we bring it to Him. We need to think upon the love He gave, and continues to give even though we don't merit it for a second.

    We need to be thankful, and content in what He has decided to give us in our lives. But even morte so His wonderful Grace and Mercy, and Love.

    Praises and Honor and Glory and Wisdom and Power be to Our Lord and Savior Jesu

  • Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:31 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Idgreen:

    Many Born again Christians on this board express disdain for this name it and claim it "seed faith" theology because it is a false doctrine. They make a doctrine out of one Biblical Scripture verse, a principle, or promise, and then never leave that point. They don't expound on the whole context and heart of the Scriptures so people will grow in their faith. Rather than teaching the whole counsel of God, they teach that if you give to their ministry, then God will multiply it 100 fold. They peddle God's Word for gain, and this is not what God calls teachers of the Word to do. It is definitely a heretical teaching that is extrabiblical and for one to say that disdain for this false doctrine and abheration of the Truth is a comparison of Christians persecuting other Christians as you implied on your post is distorting the issue.

    Yes, we as believers should be united in sound doctrine; not on all these other false doctrines including name it and clai it, and blab it and grab it theology that seem to pop up everywhere in Christian bookstores, on TBN, etc with a secular humanistic, and seeker friendly tone to them to tickle the hearers and readers ears.

    God does not promise everyone to be rich here on earth. He has however promised us a relationship with Him, He has also promised that He would supply all of our need (not our greed) if we should put our total faith and confidence in His One and Only Son Jesus Christ. He promised that He would go and prepare a place for us and that we (who have given our lives to Christ) would spend eternity worshipping Him and fellowshipping with HIm.

    We need to be like the Bereans who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what is being taught to is biblically true.

  • Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:35 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Any who claims to be a Christian and persucutes others christians is not exhibiting the love of Jesus. Unbelievers in the U.S. Need to see some christians with wealth just so they will listen to the message. The bible says in proverb,"Wisdom said I is better than strength, but a poor man's wisdom is dispised. So the idea is for Se. Grassley is to pray and seek Gods counsel on the matter and not act like Saul of Tarsus who had a zeal for God without knowledge. Homosexual are claiming to be christian when the Bible clearly states that behavior is to be repented of in order to enter the Kingdom of God. People who criticize the prosperity message are usually evangelicals who are predominantly white anglo saxon protestants who's ancestors owned slaves. These people also used the bible to promote the ill treatment of Black people in general. So we need people like Creflo,Eddie Long, Fred Price and such to first teach us that we have endured poverty for too long. Blacks weren't allowed to worship with whites so we started our own church and have our own leaders. If Sen. Grassley loves Jesus who he has not seen he can only prove it by ignore the racist impulse to say thins like,"Do they really need all that". What does he mean by they. As if he is talking about an inferior class of people. In God's eyes all have sinned and fall short. As a government representative he speaks only from sinful mans point of view-since congress can make no laws establishing a church or religion nor deny the freedom to worship. All denominations violate some portion of the BIBLE. So his inquiry is not inspired by God or the Holy Spirit. His inquiry is going to cause more harm to value of U.S. currency than he will ever know. I pray he sees the error of his ways like Saul and resign from politics or go into full time ministry but he can not serve to masters-it's clear he does not love Jesus or His people.

  • Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:06 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    When an employee of a 501c3 non profit receives a gift over $100. 00 it becomes a private inurement issue and should be turned over to the non profit. This is the standard that people who work in the non profit world deal with constantly. Your donors always want to give you things. However, you are not to take it from them. Politely explain why it is not a good idea.

  • Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:04 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

    Have2sae, PDF, taylormaed, and Prophet: Keep teaching the truth. You guys all hit the nail on the head. Again I say for those who still think that God is our servant, and not our Master, as well as those who think it's ok to be high profile, preach a tickle the ears seeker-friendly gospel, and those who peddle the Word of God for gain:

    Our hearts should be on our relationship with Christ Jesus, not on the possessions of this world. If the Lord should bless us with good finances, then that's up to Him. We shouldn't be seeking after the multimillon dollar home, etc. We should pray about being a good steward, and giving to help those in need, and invest in those ministries that help spread the true Gospel of Christ to change lives for eternity; not this name it and claim it theology. Our true treasure is in heaven. All this on earth is going to burn. This is why Jesus said to die to ourselves daily; pick up our crosses, and follow Him. The flesh covets the things of this world way too often. It's a daily battle; our walk with Christ is a day by day, moment by moment event.

    We need to think daily on what Christ pulled us out of; what He saved us from, and what He continually is cleaning from our lives as we bring it to Him. We need to think upon the love He gave, and continues to give even though we don't merit it for a second.

    We need to be thankful, and content in what He has decided to give us in our lives. But even morte so His wonderful Grace and Mercy, and Love.

    Praises and Honor and Glory and Wisdom and Power be to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Forever and Ever Amen and amen. He paid the biggest price for our sins, and that alone is the pearl of great price.

  • RBB »
    Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    nasdaq - What do you consider blasphemy? I ask because there is much out there that some consider to be gospel that others consider blasphemy, case in point would be Family Radio (Harold Camping), etc...

  • Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    I am working on and let me know what you think and if you have any advice on to achieve this important goal.
    I'm working on trying to eliminating blasphemy on the airwaves looking for suggestions on how to approach the Federal Communication Commission (FCC) and the Canandian Regulators for Telecom and Radio Services (CRTC).
    Need the help of some powerful voices. Please go to this link and watch the video any suggestions or help will be great.
    Thanks so much for your time.
    Thomas Wurzburger.
    Phone # 519-204-8495
    God Bless.
    www.hollywoodandgod.com
    I ask you to take a few minutes and watch the video at the link above.
    LETS ELIMINATE BLASPHEMY from the Airwaves.
    or organize a one day boycott of tv, radio and theatre and send a message to the FCC and CRTC.

  • Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:04 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    Taylormaed:

    you as well hit the nail on the head. Thanks for exposing the truth with the intent of educating some who still hold fast to this "prosperity" doctrine.

  • Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:03 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    Prophet:

    "I don't need to hear a seminar on how to become immensely wealthy. I don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to get book after book on properity. Just a few scriptures and you're set. Malachi 3:10-12
    Matthew 6:33
    James 1:5
    But, please don't corrupt the scripture from Malachi. If you give tithes and offerings for the simple fact that you want to be blessed....you wont be.
    Concern yourself with your relationship with God, and let Him concern Himself with how much He's gonna bless you. Otherwise, you make Him into your image, and will be judged."

    Right on brother. thanks for telling it like it is.

  • Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:52 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    i had a wise man tell me once concerning this very thing ..."It's about the lost...not the loot." I thought it was funny....but seriously true.

  • PDF »
    Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:50 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    taylormaed said:

    These churches are incorporated as a "non-profit" organization with a 5013c tax exemption because they are supposed to be charitable organizations. They are breaking the principle of their mission statement. We critisize the Red Cross for their overhead but when it comes to these churches we look at religion. People from their congregation gave a tithe or a grace offering to the church for the continuance of the ministry, upkeep, and to take care of the pastor financial obligations. Anytime these minister receive a gift from their congregation they must pay taxes on the fair market value of the gift. I wonder did these guys pay taxes on luxurious gifts. I blame church leaders. Why doesnt this money got to missions or to building a christian school or college. Pastors are not CEO's according to scripture they are servants /shepherds. If they want to live the life of a CEO then start a for-profit company and pay taxes. When was the last time you saw a shepherd with a Rolls Royce.

    PDF: That is EXACTLY my point! These ministers should have KNOWN all of this beforehand! If not, hire consultants to help! Hire accountants and lawyers if needed (and trust me, it's needed with a $69 million financial input according to Dollar). They CANNOT have it both ways!

    CEO's of Fortune 100 and 500 companies have financial impact statements filed each quarter, and we can find out how much they make, per the FOIA act. Not-for-profit means exactly that - nothing else!

    Prophet is RIGHT on the money!

  • RBB »
    Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:24 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    taylormaed -

    "When was the last time you saw a shepherd with a Rolls Royce".

    Where do you think all the oil sheiks came from :)

  • Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:22 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    These churches are incorporated as a "non-profit" organization with a 5013c tax exemption because they are supposed to be charitable organizations. They are breaking the principle of their mission statement. We critisize the Red Cross for their overhead but when it comes to these churches we look at religion. People from their congregation gave a tithe or a grace offering to the church for the continuance of the ministry, upkeep, and to take care of the pastor financial obligations. Anytime these minister receive a gift from their congregation they must pay taxes on the fair market value of the gift. I wonder did these guys pay taxes on luxurious gifts. I blame church leaders. Why doesnt this money got to missions or to building a christian school or college. Pastors are not CEO's according to scripture they are servants /shepherds. If they want to live the life of a CEO then start a for-profit company and pay taxes. When was the last time you saw a shepherd with a Rolls Royce.

  • Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:51 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 6

    I really do not think that these preachers are hiding anything on purpose. Have you considered that maybe they hide what God has given them from the eye of the public becuase people talk about them and slander them because they do have million dollar homes and expensive cars? How do you know that they are not telling their decans and other church officials and even church members about what they have? I do not think these preachers are stealing from people and I do not think they have anything to hide. How does anyone know how much of their own money they give into their own ministry and into the outreach they do. I do go to a church that we believe in prosperity and I think what people is getting wrong is that you do have to live right and seek God face and be humble in all of your ways. If you look at the background of many of these preachers they come from very poor and broken pasts. I truely believe that God has raised them up for such a time like this when they are going into countries that has never heared the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And I guarentee you that if you was to go and look through their records of their money and how it is spent, most of it would be in the Kingdom of God. I do not critize them for what they have but I respect them for the spirit that lives on the inside of them. And you know they do not just talk about money but they are winning millions apon millions for Jesus. So why can we not rejoice for all of the things they are doing right for God and all of the souls instead of bashing them for all of the things they have. To be completely honest its none of the publics business how they spend their money, we dont ask Christians who are sitting on the church pews how they spend their money and we dont ask the ones that are living in nice houses and driving nice cars and have way more money than they allow people to know how they are spending their money. Why dont we go ask Brittany Spears and Snoop Dog and the man over the Playboy Bunnies how they spend their money and I can guarantee that it is all for themselves and not all for the the Kingdom of God.

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:30 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)

    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

    Footnotes:

    1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:06 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    sorry y'all, my computer got stuck, and I hit submit twice. I didn't mean to double to post.

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:02 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Have2sae: amen and amen.

    Prophet: thanks for clearing things up. Our hearts should be on our relationship with Christ Jesus, not on the possessions of this world. If the Lord should bless us with good finances, then that's up to Him. We shouldn't be seeking after the multimillon dollar home, etc. We should pray about being a good steward, and giving to help those in need, and invest in those ministries that help spread the true Gospel of Christ to change lives for eternity; not this name it and claim it theology. Our true treasure is in heaven. All this on earth is going to burn. This is why Jesus said to die to ourselves daily; pick up our crosses, and follow Him. The flesh covets the things of this world way too often. It's a daily battle; our walk with Christ is a day by day, moment by moment event.

    We need to think daily on what Christ pulled us out of; what He saved us from, and what He continually is cleaning from our lives as we bring it to Him. We need to think upon the love He gave, and continues to give even though we don't merit it for a second.

    We need to be thankful, and content in what He has decided to give us in our lives. But even morte so His wonderful Grace and Mercy, and Love.

    Praises and Honor and Glory and Wisdom and Power be to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Forever and Ever Amen and amen. He paid the biggest price for our sins, and that alone is the pearl of great price.

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:02 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    Have2sae: amen and amen.

    Prophet: thanks for clearing things up. Our hearts should be on our relationship with Christ Jesus, not on the possessions of this world. If the Lord should bless us with good finances, then that's up to Him. We shouldn't be seeking after the multimillon dollar home, etc. We should pray about being a good steward, and giving to help those in need, and invest in those ministries that help spread the true Gospel of Christ to change lives for eternity; not this name it and claim it theology. Our true treasure is in heaven. All this on earth is going to burn. This is why Jesus said to die to ourselves daily; pick up our crosses, and follow Him. The flesh covets the things of this world way too often. It's a daily battle; our walk with Christ is a day by day, moment by moment event.

    We need to think daily on what Christ pulled us out of; what He saved us from, and what He continually is cleaning from our lives as we bring it to Him. We need to think upon the love He gave, and continues to give even though we don't merit it for a second.

    We need to be thankful, and content in what He has decided to give us in our lives. But even morte so His wonderful Grace and Mercy, and Love.

    Praises and Honor and Glory and Wisdom and Power be to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Forever and Ever Amen and amen. He paid the biggest price for our sins, and that alone is the pearl of great price.

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:44 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    I don't need to hear a seminar on how to become immensely wealthy. I don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to get book after book on properity. Just a few scriptures and you're set. Malachi 3:10-12
    Matthew 6:33
    James 1:5
    But, please don't corrupt the scripture from Malachi. If you give tithes and offerings for the simple fact that you want to be blessed....you wont be.
    Concern yourself with your relationship with God, and let Him concern Himself with how much He's gonna bless you. Otherwise, you make Him into your image, and will be judged.

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:19 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    I see your point, spirit-filled. But have these ministers strayed from that righteousness that they first sought? I don't know.
    "I have never seen his rightous forsaken nor his seed begging for bread." That says nothing about being a millionaire...it merely says that God will supply your needs. Now, before you get me wrong, I have nothing against Christians being wealthy. But what are they doing with their money? If they were to lose everything, would that change their relationship with God? If the answer is yes, then their god is money. God doesn't necessarliy care how much money you make. He cares about your relationship with Him. But, I will say this, excessive money does tend to create an atmosphere of comfortableness and complacency. And that breeds false religion, apathy, pride. I would rather be poor, living a life of power and grace in the Spirit of God, than to be rich and dead spiritually. But I am like Paul:"Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:11-13.
    I have lived in poverty for some time...and I've lived the middle income dream. I have learned that God is still God in either circumstance. And during both times, all He cared about was the condition of my heart.
    Is it wrong to make $500,000 a year? No. Is it wrong to make $1.2 million a year? No. Is it wrong to lie to the people who give to your MINISTRY (not into your million dollar homes, BMW, Benz, and Cadillac cars) about what you do with the money? Yes. Is it wrong to not disclose that information to those who deserve to see it? In my opinion...yes. But whether it is legally or morally wrong or not, it sure doesn't leave a good taste in people's mouths when you aren't being honest or open.

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "Without a doubt, my life is not average," Dollar said. "But I'd like to say, just because it is excessive doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong."

    That's an assinine statement. Sorry if that's harsh for this board.

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:55 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 5

    "Seek you first the kingdom of God and all of these things shall be added unto you" makes my very point if Christians will seek God then all of their spiritual, mental and physical needs as well as wants will be given to them by God. I believe these ministers are seeking the kingdom of God. They all started out with nothing and without all of these material things, but as they sought after God and all of him they recieved power and prosperity. Why would God want his children to do without when people who are not even Christians and do not even profess to be have expensive things? "I have never seen his rightous forsaken nor his seed begging for bread." Maybe thats why we are not seeing an explosion and revival of Gods glory revealed in this world, because no one wants to give their life to God because Christians think they have to be broke and not have anything. "If you give good gifts until your children then how much more should your HEAVENLY FATHER GIVE good gifts unto you." Its not a sin to have nice things and have expensive things and want for nothing in your life as long as God is number one and he gets all of the glory and praise for all that he has given unto you. "Let no man say that he hath made me rich for it was the Lord who maketh me rich." Heaven has streets of gold and walls of Jasper and Christians desire with their whole heart to be their with him, so why should we not seek first the Kingdom of God and believe and except our hearts desires while we are on this earth. It takes money to go to other countries and give Bibles, food, etc. and let me tell you broke Christians cannot get that done because they only have enough for them and theirs. To be honest I think that is a bigger tragedy than these people having all this money and fine things. If God can feed the birds and all of the other animals then why should we worry about how we are going to pay our bills, put clothes on our children, give to the ministry of God, etc. I believe our jobs as Christians is to be Gods feet to go to other people and countries, we should be his voice to spread the gospel of Christ and how he loves them, we should be his hands to help pick up the hurting and to comfort them,etc. and I am sorry you cannot go to these places without money and even if it is close to your home you still have to put gas in your car to go to that person. There is a spiritual law of seed time and harvest. If you dont believe it then dont go sow your time at work all week and expect money on payday for that time that you sowed. "Give and it will be given unto you Press sown Shaken together and running over"

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:22 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." Matthew 6:19-21
    "
    Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. " Matthew 6:25-33

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:53 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    And by the way to recieve anything you have to BELIEVE by faith for it just like you believe by faith to get saved. The Bible says By his strips ye ARE healed and later goes on to say By his stripes ye WERE healed. And the Bible also states according to your FAITH shall it be given unto you PRESS DOWN SHAKEN TOGETHER AND RUNNING OVER shall men give unto YOUR busim.

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:45 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 3

    These ministries do more for people in the area of feeding and sharing the love of God with them then most people. The Bible tells us that Jesus died so that we could have life more abundantly. And when Jesus rode on a donkey, they brought him one that had not been rode on before. And when Jesus was born they brought him francansense, gold and myrth. In those days that stuff was very expensive things and they brought him these things on camals. And when the soldiers crucified Jesus they were fighting over his garment because it had no seams in it so that meant that it was expensive, and if it wasnt expensive then why didnt they just tear it in half for all of them to have a piece or why did they fight over which of them was going to have it. So to say that Jesus was poor while he was on this earth is a deception. I have no problem with these ministers having nice things because the Bible says that God wishes above all things that you should PROSPER and be in health even as your soul does PROSPER! I would have a problem with this if they were just keeping money and stealing money but they are truely blessed and they help more over seas and in this country then anyone of the people who are critizing them for being blessed with material things.

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:41 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    I just feel that I need to say this to express the sentiments of a lot of Christians today. While I am a true believer that preachers are entitled by the Word to be given carnal things (money) after they have given us spiritual things (the word of God), but in the same light I am appalled at the lack of wisdom they use when it comes to the overly flamboyant use of these blessings. Even if their ministry financial records are in order, or even choose not to take a salary from their churches, I personally feel that if they wouldn't live so "high off the hog", with their personal finances, they could use some of that money for THEIR ministry needs instead of reaching out to the public or even their members with offering envelopes every single time they say GOD TOLD THEM to do something new in ministry. Do they need 10,000+ sq ft homes, drive Bentleys and fly in personal jets. Jesus spread the gospel (on foot or small boats) without any of that. This is what prompts the probing and questioning. You’re asking people living in apartments and small homes to give you their money while you’re living in mansions with yours. The devil is a liar! Let me tell you, the wool has started itching over the eyes of believers today and being pulled off. Thank God we are becoming less gullible to this "see how blessed I am because of all my this stuff" preaching any more. Stuff is not the validation of your blessed relationship with God. Ask the overseas persecuted Church, who feel absolutely blessed to simply still be alive, able to eat or drink clean water in the midst of religious persecution if they are blessed by God. Because of the superstar, living high preacher message, American Christian have this thing confused the only thing you’re taking with you back to glory is another sister or brother in the Lord. Not all this stuff. I believe God has allowed this latest probe to happen to show that HE IS NOT IMPRESSED with the superstar, celebrity preacher Era we have been enduring. It's all about God through Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. Humility and modesty is still in style with Him. He's the same yesterday, today and forevermore. Let’s get back to bringing people to Jesus and not to stuff. While I don't mean to sound judgmental, I just want to be spiritually wise by judging the actions of these preachers' spirits by the Spirit to see whether their actions are truly of God. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ, therefore, my prayers are, and will continue to be with them for their good. Thank you for this moment to get that out. Have a truly blessed day.

  • Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:06 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    One thing that has always made me laugh is when these word of faith people claim to have been visited by an angel or by Jesus Himself. The very first thing that brings the 'yeah right' idea into my head is how they typically never say anything about being scared out of their minds when this occurs.

    If Jesus visits you (take John for example) or an angel visits you (take all of the OT and NT), you will be scared out of your mind... it happens to everyone who is visited by the divine...

  • Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Prophet, thanks for responding; i hadn't seen you post at all today. Good to hear from you brother.: Actually, I didn't say that, I only quoted word for word portions of the article.

    I think you should go to the link and read the 2 part articles backed by book quotes, and sermons she's taught. With regard to smelling something when evil spirits are around I have heard that as well. Some of the people who claim to be abducted by aliens, I personally believe are really being tortured by demonic beings - that's another topic. But, praise be to God, we have been saved by grace thru faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Anyway, read the whole article in context, at http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17c..htm, and it will hopefully shed some light on why so many on this site have commented that Joyce Myers is indeed "word faith" to some degree.

  • Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    jc4me...
    you said "There is nothing in scripture that they have an offensive odor except if they have not taken a bath, and those who are not demon possessed would smell the same way without a bath as well." that is true. But sometimes God allows us to percieve a spiritual event/being in a physical manifestation. Some people will smell something when and evil spirit is present. I've heard of people who hear spirits whispering, or have seen a "manifestation" in one way or another where someone who is not as in tune spiritually would see nothing. I believe that she may have been trying to bring across how she perecieves someone who is possesed.

  • Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    .............................."

    and y'all can read the rest on http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17.htm.

  • Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Continued article on Joyce Myers from let us reason ministries

    "Speaking about trials she apologizes and states “that’s not a negative confession, I’m not cursing your life” (Life in the Word Mar.6 2003 Lesea Broadcasting)” This shows her word faith influence of not speaking negatively.

    She also has some interesting views on warfare “Several years ago I found myself completely worn out from trying to fight the devil. I learned many 'methods' of spiritual warfare; however, they did not seem to be working ... I had fallen into the trap that many Christians fall into. I had the right teaching, but the wrong order ... I was feverishly applying methods I had learned - like fasting and prayer ... rebuking and resisting evil spirits ... empty formulas which wear us out and produce no results except maybe a sore throat” (The Word, The Name, The Blood, pp. 28, 32, 33 reference PFO article January-March 1996).

    “Our warfare is a supernatural warfare you don’t fight the devil the same way you would a natural war. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal they’re not natural weapons but their mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. One of the reasons why I tell you talk back to the devil is because the word of God is supernatural weapon it is a spiritual weapon…”

    Do we fight the devil or do we stand in Christ and he is to flee?

    “Now spirits don't have bodies, so we can't see them. Okay? There probably is, I believe there is, and I certainly hope there is several angels up here this morning that are preaching with me. I believe that right before I speak some anointed statement to you, that one of them bends over and says in my ear what I'm supposed to say to you.” Joyce Meyer (Witchcraft & Related Spirits (Part 1) - 2 A-27 Audiotape) http://www.bereanfaith.com/heresy.php?action=aquote&id=14"

  • Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:49 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Continued article on Joyce Myers from letusreason ministries-

    "She makes her position clear by saying “words are containers for power they carry creative or destructive power positive or negative power so we need to be speaking right things over our lives and about our futures if we expect to have good things happen because what you say then is what you probably end up having tomorrow. We need to warfare with words. I believe that praise and worship is warfare. We talked about this last night, how when we are praising and worshipping God that there's actually a, an odor that comes off of us that is offensive to the enemy. And I don’t know if you ever had the opportunity to smell a demon possessed person but I have, and I tell you it is a stench; and I was saying about that this morning and I thought you know people that are demon possessed have an offensive odor to me and I’m glad because I am holy ghost possessed that I’ve got an offensive odor to the devil.” (broadcasted on the Bible Answerman Jan.2003)

    Despite the concept of words being in control, there have been many who have overcome some very unhealthy lives whether they be words spoken about them or where they came from. There is nothing in scripture that they have an offensive odor except if they have not taken a bath, and those who are not demon possessed would smell the same way without a bath as well. And yes, I have had the opportunity to smell and converse with demonized people and one cannot immediately tell by smell.

    Her appeal to money to be given to her ministry is from the prosperity teaching that originated with Oral Roberts. “Sowing and reaping is a spiritual law...Sow generously and you will reap generously.” (Joyce Meyer, “What Does Your Future Hold” May 21, 2004)

    “We need to claim as much of that inheritance as we possibly can...One of the things you can do right now is speak positive things about your future right now.” (ibid.)

    She says “I've got to keep the anointing on my life. I can't keep it on my life unless I'm a giver” (May 14, 2000) (insinuating money and other things). Clearly this is a word faith view. Jesus said he would never leave nor forsake us, poor or rich, giving or not."

  • Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17.htm

    Joyce Meyer

    -Are you paying attention-

    "..........Word Faith Teaching

    Meyer, in her book, writes, “Words are containers for power” (The Name, The Word, The Blood, p. 37). This is typical Copeland/ Hagin faith talk. She has promoted this as well on her TV broadcast. “Prov.18:21 this could be a life hanging scripture “death and life are in the power of the tongue. And they who indulge in it shall eat the fruit of it for death or life.” The ad following for her audio series “Is your mouth saved.” The advertise says we all have the ability to speak life or death to not only other people but to ourselves as well. “Will help you to take inventory of what you’ve been saying and begin speaking faith filled words that will bring to pass God's good plan for your life.” (May 14, 2000 LeSea broadcasting)

    “But you cannot throw out positive confession, and you cannot throw out all the faith teachers, and you cannot throw out positive thinking. And you cannot get rid of those kinds of things because they're in the Bible from one end of it to the other.” (Joyce Meyer, PFO Quarterly Journal, April-June 2002, p. 6. Withcraft and Related Spirits, pt. 1, sides 1 and 2)

    Meyer was at the Mega Fest 2004 with: Creflo Dollar, Paula White, Juanita Bynum, Bishop Eddie Long, and Bishop T. D. Jakes.

    By the way: Dollar believes we are little gods as does Eddie Long. Bynum thinks she is a prophetess who can pass on the anointing to anything she wants. T. D. Jakes does not believe in the Trinity and teaches psychology. White is a prosperity teacher who has a mixture of various aberrant trendy doctrines. The word faith associations do rub off on her teachings, this is why she is comfortable to be speaking with these people. "

  • RBB »
    Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    jc4me - It's pretty obvious that you are going to keep claiming all manner of things without proof. Judging all these people before they have been found guilty of anything, and claiming they are heretics. You refuse to get any real information but would rather just keep going around in circles and reading websites instead of actually finding out for yourself. At this point I say...... Mazel Tov. Say what you want. I'm done trying to convince you.

  • Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:37 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    RBB:

    "jc4me - I wanted proof of the many and varied fantastic claims you were making of multi million dollar homes, Lear jets, Bentleys, Rolls Royce's, fraud, theft, etc without documentation."

    So far I've checked all my posts; please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember using the words fraud, theft or Bentley in my suspicions. I did use phrases such as fleecing the flock, and peddling the Word of God for their monetary gain though.

    "By the way your claims of multi-million dollar homes........please look at the prices of the homes (yes, including improvements) I don't know if you've looked at home prices lately but where I live, they look normal to me, perhaps a little low. "

    I also wanted to clear up a little fuzz and haze that you have added. Concerning my previous statements I made about a 7 or 8.5 million dollar home, it was made as a generalized statement concerning the "prosperity gospel teachers", but if you want to be specific it was about Benny Hinn, not Joyce Myers. He does own a huge mansion worth millions. My claims therefore, are not fantastic.

    Now with regard to the Joyce Myers article, I would agree with you that if the church owns a home and allows a pastor to live in it, that's fine, but have you even seen the size of the palacial estate she apparently lives in pictured on the link? Not to mention, the other 4 homes for her family? I don't know if the children work for the ministry, or not; I can't respond to that statement, becuase I do not know that.

    In addition, I think if you live in a place like California, a little 3 bedroom home will likely cost about 386,000.00; so yes, there is some truth to that, but a mansion that is 10,000 sq ft is not a home; it is an estate, and if the church uses it's 503c tax exempt status so the "pastor" and her husband can live in it; let alone purchase more property for her children, and pay all the maintenance on it, I also believe that the Feds have the right to investigate why there was such expenditure rather than lower price home.

  • Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I am Shocked, Shocked! – Of the six prosperity preacher families sent US Senate Finance Committee letters on 11/5/07 requesting information, perhaps some might use the Claude Rains Gambit. This is the famous scene in the movie Casablanca where Rick Blaine (played by Humphrey Bogart) asks why his restaurant is being closed. Captain Louis Renault (played by Claude Rains) replies, “I am shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here!” Whereupon the croupier hands him a roll of bills and says, “Your winnings, sir.” He pockets the cash and says, “Oh. Thank you very much.”
    www.inthatdayteachings.com

  • RBB »
    Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    truthandjustice1 - No, actually I haven't had a chance to read the article yet, that's why I never commented again. Sorry, I got a little tied up and involved here. I'll try to check it out tonight (tomorrow at the latest) and let you know what I think, if you still want to know.

  • RBB »
    Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:55 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    jc4me - I wanted proof of the many and varied fantastic claims you were making of multi million dollar homes, Lear jets, Bentleys, Rolls Royce's, fraud, theft, etc without documentation. I do have to thank you for sending this. While we do only have the website's word about who paid for any of this, I would point out that my minister lives in a house owned by the church. The last church I belonged to, just a simple Baptist church, owns four homes around the church (the last one cost in the neighborhood of $600,000 two years ago) and the three pastors and their families live there (the fourth is kept for visiting missionaries for a place of vacation and rest). I'm not sure if you're aware of this but it's customary for churches and ministries to pay for housing and then the house and property belongs to and stays with the ministry, not to the minister. That way, it belongs to the church, the church gets the benefit, the church keeps it. So if indeed she and her family (who all work for the ministry) live in homes owned by the ministry, then that would be normal, and actually good for the ministry...........the ministry gets to keep the houses.

    By the way your claims of multi-million dollar homes........please look at the prices of the homes (yes, including improvements) I don't know if you've looked at home prices lately but where I live, they look normal to me, perhaps a little low.

    As to your other site, again no thank you. I would rather listen to the person and decide for myself. As you are so fond of quoting about the Bereans, they listened to the teaching and then checked it out against scripture. They didn't just listen to rumors about it. I can't suggest strongly enough that you should do the same.

  • Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    RBB, I thought you wanted proof for the opinions expressed on this site concerning specifically Joyce Myers.

    http://www.trinityfi.org/images/meyer03.jpg

    The web link shows the source from the St. Louis County Records that shows pictures of the 5 properties paid for by Joyce Myers for herself and her family. According to the article, the ministry pays all expenses, including landscaping and lawn care, property taxes, and rehab work. Also according to the article, Myers, her husband, and each of her 4 married children live in the homes- free of charge. Now whether the site is making this up or not, I don't know. I have never been to the Myers family compound, but I'm sure that if this article shows the pictures and the info on the property as county records as a source, then i believe their must be some truth to the allegations made by the Senate. Here's the proof. You decide.

    http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m26ad.html (this is the other link exposing some of her own quotes

  • Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    No, just thought you took issue with Ron Paul's take on theology as contrasted to politics:

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul244.html

  • RBB »
    Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I do try. Do you have a person or institution in mind?

  • Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    No question - just hoping that your standards are the same regardless of the person/institution.

  • RBB »
    Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Yes I am, and..... you sound like a person with a question.

  • RBB »
    Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    letsgetreal - Amen my friend, amen.

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