Some of the most prominent evangelical leaders and Christian apologists recently addressed thousands of believers amid a trend of atheist outspokenness.
"Let's face it: Atheism is in," Stan Guthrie wrote in Tuesday's column in Christianity Today magazine.
But arising to disprove atheist claims are not just Christian arguments of faith or citations from Scripture, but evidence.
"We have a defensible faith that stands up to scrutiny and investigation," said Lee Strobel, a former atheist and author of the bestselling book The Case for Christ.
Lee was a featured speaker at this year's National Conference on Christian Apologetics, held Nov. 9-10 at Calvary Church in Charlotte, N.C. The annual conference, presented by Southern Evangelical Seminary, came as America has been experiencing a surge in attacks against religion – more specifically, Christianity.
In recent years, books on atheism have hit best-selling lists and the authors have gained prominence across the country.
The louder voice that has emerged among atheists, however, has not gone unchallenged.
"There's a phenomenon going on right now," Strobel said, according to The Charlotte Observer. "In response to this proliferation of attacks on Christianity that we're seeing in best-selling books and on the Internet, there's a new hunger in the church for apologetics – that is, defending the faith."
Churches are now finding a need to equip Christians with rebuttals and answers that go beyond an acceptance of the authority of Scripture. In response, Christian apologists are filling the void, teaching a language anchored in reason and science.
And if the Church wants to keep the younger generation, Christian leaders should start stressing evidence and proof, as one 17-year-old suggested.
"We've grown up in a place and a time where everything can be proven," Emily Koll, a member of Calvary Church, told the local newspaper. "And then, all of a sudden, with God, you have to take a leap of faith. We're not used to that. It's outside our comfort zone."
Nearly 4,000 people convened at Calvary this past weekend to hear speakers like Strobel and Charles Colson talk about apologetics.
But before even diving in to the proof, Colson said it was time Christians define Christianity, which culture, popular media and atheists have apparently done.
"What is Christianity?" Colson posed at the conference.
"Christianity is an explanation of everything," he said.
It's not just about morality, getting saved or being part of some religious group. And it's much more than a relationship with Jesus, he told The Charlotte Observer.
Christianity, essentially, gives an explanation for all of the great questions of life such as ‘What is truth and justice?’ ‘Why do we exist and where did we come from?’ and ‘Where are we headed?’” said Tom Gilson, who attended the conference, about Colson's talk.
"The Bible does not speak directly to every question," Gilson wrote on his blog, ThinkingChristian.net. "Yet Biblical principles apply to all of life, as explanations of what the world and life are about, and as guidance for all that we do. Too many of us compartmentalize Christianity into some 'religious' sphere. But God is King of all."
With the atheist argument becoming more aggressive, one theologian says Christians need to deal with it and stand up to it.
"[I]f people look at science, they will find faith and they will find reason; the two cannot be incompatible and they have one author, namely God," said Midland theologian Norbert Dickman, who was scheduled to present what the Christian response should be to the rise of the atheist voice at an Illinois church on Tuesday.
The recent National Conference on Christian Apologetics was designed to equip individuals to "win the battle" of other worldviews in addition to atheism.
The smallest particles, quarks etc., have always existed as has all the rules governing their behavior.
I ran across this book recently and read it. A good start for understanding how evolution and faith can go hand-in-hand without punching a hole in either one:
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1597260983/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt/103-7875564-6999066?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
I know envy is a sin, but if you have Geisler for a professor, I envy you.I did not know much about him, but I picked up a couple of his books and I have not been disappointed.I sure wish I could have studied under someone like him instead of the liberal Religion/Philosophy professors I studied under.The Schaeffer trilogy is a good recommendation, too.Good job, schumacr.
GoldenEagle's right - if you're going to read just one book on the defense of the Christian faith, Geisler's book is it. Of course, I'm a little biased as Dr. Geisler is one of my professors... :-)
Another I'd recommend is Francis Schaffer's Trilogy, which contains his three most important works. Excellent stuff!
I like the points that schumacr makes.Many of these points are also covered in the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist".I hate to harp on it, but you need to read this book.I cannot emphasize enough how good this book is.
fallenman--Most of us do take a look at your side of the story from time to time, for myself i have not seen anything that would convince me of evolution-----as Darwin preached. I believe in Creation, personally I see it as the most convincing in light of the Bible and from what I have been able to investigate, but it really would not be that hard for me to accept a longer time period. However to say we came from monkeys is something else all together that to me would be an absolute contradiction to what I know is true.
Gods Blessing in your studies and college
In Christ
Tom
It touches me to know that there are those who will seek the truth even when they are sure of their convictions...
<<Ahhh im so glad Shumacr is starting to take other opinions on evolution >>
Christians, myself included, should always be willing to look at evidence and thoughtfully consider it. As I've said, if evolution is true, we should all be evolutionists.
<<so evolution is not an arguement against God, its merely an arguement for how life was created... the Big Bang would try to 'put a hole in God' but the Big Bang isnt proven....>>
OK, understood. I would, however, respectfully say that the big bang appears to have a lot of evidence on its side. The 2nd law of thermodynamics, the expanding universe, the radiation echo discovered in the 30's, the galaxy seeds found by the COBE explorer, and Einstein's theory all point to a beginning of the universe.
<<but thats getting quite a tad bit philosophical ^^. So I wont get into that.>>
Don't be afraid of philosophy - you and I both need it. There are lots of things you can't use the scientific method for. You can't use it to prove math or logic, because it presupposes both. You can't use it for moral/ethical judgments (you can't prove the Nazi's were evil via the inductive method). You can't use it to make aesthetic judgments (beauty, goodness). And you can't use it to prove science itself because the statement "Science is the source of objective truth" is itself a philosophical statement, and not provable via science. What science does is it proposes a paradigm that, for the moment, best explains our observations. Don't forget that someone may come along tomorrow with a better, more accurate paradigm...
Asking who created God is a category mistake - much like asking what does blue taste like. You don't create the unmade. And remember - you've got to have an eternal 'something' - either a Creator or universe to explain life. And the evidence still doesn't (in my mind) point to an eternal universe.
But ya if the Big Bang was proven then one could say God caused the Big Bang, because without God, one would have to ask what caused the big bang? Likewise though one could ask that of God, but thats getting quite a tad bit philosophical ^^. So I wont get into that.
By the way, Evolution doesnt put a 'hole' in God, it puts a 'hole' in genesis. Humans didnt pop into existance. But one could just modify his beliefs to make it fit more concisely... which it is possible to do... the whole thing with evolution vs creationism is that Atheists thought this was a genius idea, but then Christians said get rid of it, its trying to destroy Christianity, Atheists thought why?! Its such a good theory... so evolution is not an arguement against God, its merely an arguement for how life was created... the Big Bang would try to 'put a hole in God' but the Big Bang isnt proven....
By the way, I recommend schumacrs link... Its a long read, but its well worth it... it brings up some very goood points, see if you can disagree with the points that are brought up... or see if you can see which side is more provable? Anyways Schumacr's intent was hes giving you what Evolutionists say, now he wants to see what Christians say in response... I think thats a fair question! One I would be interested in hearing...
Ahhh im so glad Shumacr is starting to take other opinions on evolution ^^. Anyways guys Im going to stop.... im beginning to sense that things are only goin to become hostile, and I dont wish to quarrel... so I'll end it at that. I will read the works when I have timee and ill respond then... but until then, thanks for the chat you guys... its always nice to see what other people think as opposed to myself..
Well I said I would stop posting, but I do feel obligated to answer a few things.
First, I would indeed recommend my fellow Christians check out the link BobC posted because it does have good information that should be looked at. The link again is http://www.sciohost.org/ncse/kvd/Padian/Padian_transcript.html. Thanks again, Bob, for posting it.
Next, I would still ask those on this thread who believe in evolution how it definitively puts a bullet in God. Whether the big bang "banged" early or very long ago (and I think an old universe is a fine idea both scientifically and theologically), the cause of it must have arisen from something - something that is very powerful and intelligent. I hold to the intelligent part of that statement because I haven't been convinced yet that incogitative matter (non-thinking) can give birth to cogitative (thinking) matter. But I'm certainly open to hearing other's views on the subject.
I am assuming with a name like "Fallenman" that you already recognize that you are a sinner in need of a savior.That is the first step in coming to Christ.I am praying for you in your decision.Check out the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist", and pray that God will help you see that He is there, and that He cares for you!!
"26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence." (1 Corinthians 26-29 NKJ).
Fallenman,
"Basically the point of me mentioning this is that I am not completely intellectual in my outlook on life, rather on the contrary, im quite in touch with my emotions... But because I am, I realize when emotion is overriding my judgement, and I refuse to allow it in such a tremendous life altering situation... Not with out ample evidence, tangible evidence. Philosophical theories are nice for strengthening ones faith, but it is not an ample enough foundation to give much credence too."
" 1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. " (Matthew18: 1-4) NKJ)
"18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”[a]
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[b] foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Corinthians 18-25 NKJ)
" I choose not to live my life in fear, but rather to embrace life for all the wonders and beautiful things the world has to offer... I try to make the best of the moments I do get, and if I am not promised tomorrow, at least I can say I lived today."
Life as a Christian is lived in faith and not fear. Our steps are ordered in faith and God's word. God's words says:
"13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin" (James 4: 13-17 NKJ)
fallenman,
If you're not interested on how facts-based minds can make facts-based decisions on what you think is a non-facts-based premise, than you are NOT after facts on the very subject you asked for facts on. You are simply nurturing a view that you find more convenient. That is a choice, and you certainly have the right to choose for yourself. Just don't sugar coat it.
Ive spent most of my life* lol... I really make too many typos on this site for some odd reason...
I am very in touch with my emotions, a little too well... I am an introvert, I spend most of my time thinking to myself, and I've spent most of myself evaluating my emotional side, and I've also dedicated a large part of my life to observing other peoples emotions. My friends call me remarkably intuitive, and I've been nicknamed Dr. Phil a few times throughout my life... Basically the point of me mentioning this is that I am not completely intellectual in my outlook on life, rather on the contrary, im quite in touch with my emotions... But because I am, I realize when emotion is overriding my judgement, and I refuse to allow it in such a tremendous life altering situation... Not with out ample evidence, tangible evidence. Philosophical theories are nice for strengthening ones faith, but it is not an ample enough foundation to give much credence too. I will eventually look at those readings, just not in the next few days... I've tests essays and a torrent of other things to attend to beforehand.. and if I find myself reading these documents over writing my essay, I will certainly regret it in the future.
To Amy, Im sorry for your loss, but luckily enough you had people who loved you to carry you through the hardship :). To Tom, I am quite busy at the moment, while I can spare a few minutes to looking at articles or a few posts, at the moment I dont have the time to put forth in reading these given readings. I am losing sleep as it is, the life of a college student I suppose, to GMG, not in the least. People go to God PLENTY of times because religion appeals to their emotions. When we find ourselves in a hardship we find ourselves more susceptible to concepts that appeal to our emotion in a positive way. Many people go to religion because of the emotoinal tug Christianity tends to have over the hearts of many... I know the power of emotion and its blinding influence it can have on our perception of certain things. While I can say that I give all arguements its fair chance, and I would like to believe in God, if he truly exists because the benefits certainly out weigh the costs... To certain degrees..
fallenman -
You are enamored of evolution, why not use that same subject to find out what is worth your time look at. There ARE a number of evolution scientists who have come to a belief in God through their study of this very theory. Go ahead, google up some information on them. Aren't you the least bit curious as to how evolution could actually provide enough facts to make some mega-logical, atheist/agnostic bent, left-brained linear thinking, "science-only-please" type of person believe in God?
fallenman I have read most of what has been written and we have given you as well anybody else who is seeking the truth amble evidence for this God we believe in. We have suggested resources for you to read. Please check them out. It is okay to see what the critics says about these books but don't take their word for it check it out yourself. Most of these authors were in the same delima that you are in and realized that the overwhelming evidence supports a God who has sent His Son to die for you as well as all of us. Most of us believe there is more conclusive evidence for His being God and for His Bible being His word then for any other world view/religion, if you couple that with the real live experiences of those who have sought Him out with all their heart and mind you can see the reality of a risen Christ and the freedom that believing in His name brings. Listen to what we say,or preach, if you will, please understand it is for the most part out of love for you that the Lord fills in us thru His outpouring of His Spirit, but don't just believe us check it out by reading our evidence. Test this Lord we have come to know. Jeremiah 33:3 says "call to me and i will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know"
may God Bless you and yours
In Christ
Tom
Fallenman,
God loves you so much. And I don't have any doubt that your father is in His hands, experiencing a level of life that we can't even imagine. My friend who died is named Paul. He was killed in a car wreck at the age of 26; and I found out he had died later that evening. After choir practice, prayer requests were issued, and Paul's name was mentioned. My best friend of ten years had been killed at 10:30 that morning after delivering food to a poor lady who worked at the Student Center at my college. The woman who made the prayer request turned to me and said, "You knew Paul, didn't you, Amy?" Yes, I knew Paul. He was my friend for ten years. I went out into the hallway and collapsed. Ministers ran after me and prayed with me. People from the church never left my side for several days and well into the night. Whenever I needed a shoulder, one was there. As I closed my eyes, I saw Paul, but the shoulder I felt was an extension of God's gracce. Yes, Fallenman, God knows what you're going through. You're so close. You don't have to commit intellectual suicide to approach Him. Embrace Him with all you are, and you'll experience peace you've never known before.
Fallenman:
"Lets not get ahead of ourselves, I've got whats left of my life to make this choice, and I've already decided that I would only become Christian on the basis of evidence....."
Fallenman, don't gamble your life away like this. your playing spiritual russian rullete. You may or may not have many days left to live. I am not the one who allotted your timeframe on earth to you, but I do know who did. It is God the Creator of the Universe. I humbly implore you to call out to God, and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. The Scriptures say that if you seek you will find (this is in reference to seeking after God) God also says in Scripture that if you draw near to Him, He will draw near to you. Fallenman, God has provided a way of reconciliation between Him and yourself - this Way is Jesus Christ (God in the Flesh who resurrected on the third day after willfully giving His life for you. He now sits at the right hand of the Father God). I exhort you to choose Christ. He changed my life, my way of thinking, and ultimately my eternal destiny. I now have a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe based on may faith in Christ. I have to add that when one chooses not to accept Christ, then one is rejecting Him by default. Again, I will continue praying for you. I will pray for God's mercies to be shown to you.
When I find the time ill give it a look over, as to the watch, I choose not to live my life in fear, but rather to embrace life for all the wonders and beautiful things the world has to offer... I try to make the best of the moments I do get, and if I am not promised tomorrow, at least I can say I lived today.
"I've got whats left of my life to make this choice"
We are not promised tomorrow.
I hope that you do decide to follow Christ. I will be praying for you.
Fallenman: I would also urge you to read the books by Leigh Stroebel "The Case for Christ", and "The Case for Creation" Both books will point you biblically to Jesus Christ as the One and Only Savior of the World with historical facts, and they are written by an ex-atheist who on his quest to addamately disprove Christianity, he became born again based on the facts that he found.
Read the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist", and see what you think.Whatever you decide, it's worth looking at because it will make you think, and it will challenge you to consider the evidence against Atheism.
Lets not get ahead of ourselves, I've got whats left of my life to make this choice, and I've already decided that I would only become Christian on the basis of evidence. The past few attempts were through scripture which are not sufficient enough to claim truth on behalf of itself, as for ID and Evolution, the jury is still out on that one, and the only reason I think that it is still being used in debate is because I do not know enough about Evolution to be at all persuasive of the validity of Evolution as a science.
Fallenman, He is trully a merciful God. This is why He is allowing you the opportunity to accept Him. He is patient and longsuffering, but you need to make a choice whether you would like to accept His gift of Salvation or not. Choose you this day whom you will serve. No one knows the number of their days. I will be praying for you and for the Lord to somehow touch your life and bring you to repentance and following Him.
And let us all hope that he truly is a merciful God.
No, you won't be turned back at heaven's gate, you will see the Lord. You will see who He is before your judgement.
Yes... at any point my time could come and it may all be too late... the consequences? I go to heavens gate and I am turned around and sent to hell... Should I be worried? I suppose there is a valid case that I should be.... Am I? At this moment not really... For a time I used to believe I knew the meaning of the phras, "Hell on Earth." The consequence of being a lonely wretched person.. Will Hell be worse? Realistically speaking probably... Its supposed to be the worst thing anyone can experience, right? I dont know... I could deal with physical pain... mental pain is what I dont want to be put through anymore... I suspect that I will become used to the pain after awhile... its kind of sad though you know? Here I've gone through all this, and rather than having a moment to rest... they want to put me through it for an eternity longer... when does it end? I guess the answer is never... The price we have to pay to live I suppose...
fallenman -
"You've never been dead, and no preist or Christian scholar I have ever heard of has died and lived to tell about it. So I know my question will never be answered..."
It is true that your father cannot come back and tell you. However, I have heard of a Christian scholar who has died and come back to tell about it, read 2Corinthians 2-4. Now you've heard about one too, so read it.
It's about Saul of Tarsus, a pretty nasty fellow, a very zealous jew, who made it his business to hunt down christians to make sure they got their just recompense for the apostasy of believing in Jesus. He was a very righteous man, very high up in the jewish religious setvery feared by christians. Until, that is, the day that Jesus met him while Saul was on the road to Damascus. From that day on he was a very changed man. He became Paul, spent the rest of his life telling the world about Jesus, was thrown in jail numerous times, beaten, left for dead.
Yep, during your life you are not likely to have a face-to-face encounter with God. And when you die decision time will be over; but you most certainly will see Him then. You're still awfully young, I'm sure you think you have so much time left, and you surely might. Or you might not. Only God knows the numbering of our days.
I suppose though it would be rather assuming of me to expect anyone to take me in lovingly.. but I dont desire conflict, insult, or violence of any nature... I simply desire civil discussion. But passions will rise as they have, and we have to make allowance for that.. we are only human.
Oh and I forgive you ^^. I understand the image the label of atheism tends to carry... I dont expect anyone to take me in lovingly, but I am patient...
mhmm mhmmm...... I know what Christianity offers... I've known for quite some time... and while I could use the love from time to time... Its not quite yet enough to convert me.... the search is never ending, and I've all my life to consider my options, because as they say, its never too late to repent, as long as I still breathe.... Unfortunately this very gracious offer has been exploited by some of the most evil characters... But I take stock of it...
Fallenman: I want to first humbly ask for your forgiveness for putting you in the same category as Bob C a couple of days ago. I see you are not a hardcore "atheist" and you are truly in search of the Truth. I read the post you had about your father, and I'm trully sorry that he is gone. I lost my grandmother a little over 2 months ago, and I was very close to her as a child, and even into adulthood; she was 97 years old, and subsequently my last grandparent. I feel your grief. I too was very hurt at her loss.
I did want to answer something for you, and I could be wrong, and you could correct me if I am, but I thought you had stated somewhat to the effect that you had questions as to why you're here, and how did you get here, etc. Fallenman, the Bible says that you shall know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free. Here is theTruth: the reason for our existence, and why we are here is to give glory to God. God created mankind for His pleasure and glory, but at the Garden of Eden, mankind (both man and woman) chose to rebel against their Creator. This rebellion is still with us today. Man has made God in his own image, and has rejected the Truth of His Word, and who He is.
The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us are without sin. The Good News is that Jesus Christ became God in the flesh for us! He decended from his exalted heavenly place, and willfully shed His Prescious Blood and gave up His life so that we may have a relationship with God the Father our Creator.
We need to first acknowledge that we are all sinners; we need to repent - that is to literally and willfully choose to turn away from our old life of living in sins; we need to ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior of our lives (this means we hand over our free will to Him, and choose to obey His commands and teachings). We must put our total trust and confidence in Him, and then follow Him.
The question is, have we trully repented, and turned back from our sin. That is to say, if we're willfully, and rebelliously living in sin, have we made a conscious choice to turn from that sin, die to ourselves, pick up our crosses daily and follow Christ?
God has given us a free choice. We must choose this day whom we will serve. Are we going to choose to gratify our flesh and live in sin, or are we going to die to ourselves, and choose to follow Christ Jesus?
In addition, whoever else doesn't truly know Christ on this site, please give your life to Him. You will not regret it. He will never bring up your past. We all have pasts, but God can make you a new person, and as you continue to seek after Him and as you surrender your life to Him, He will continue to mold you and make you into the vessel of honor He wants you to be. I hope this touches someone out there, and may the Lord turn your heart to repentance. God Bless You.
Jesus is coming for His Bride (Church) soon. If anyone out there does not know Christ the Risen Lord, Repent, and turn from your sins. He will forgive you and make you a new creature. The choice is up to you who you will decide to serve. The Gospel has been preached, not to tickle ears, but to draw men to Christ. Don't make the very sad mistake of rejecting Christ's offer of Salvation. No one knows when their time is come to die and leave this planet to stand before God. What wil you say when you stand before God and He asks Why should I let you into heaven? Make sure you are saved. Put your total trust in Christ Jesus the Messiah, and you can know for sure where you will spend eternity.
Thank you amy ^^ I appreciate the love.
My dear bob,
I waited for you to respond, my wonderful ape, for as long as a person who actually has a life could wait. Oh, the tragedy of being loved by all these lying flat earthers! And these abused children who keep giggling in the next room (though I'm sure they cry every time they think about singing "Jesus Loves Me"). But, I want you to know, darling, as you sit there in your lonely room, with that nice computer screen in front of you, that I'm only a thought away. There's no need to visit all those...websites...you go to in between posting your extremely important messages for all these religious pinheads to read. Just realize that when you're life seems meaningless, as it must be most of the time, that I truly find you attractive. Now, don't you get too busy and rile yourself up into that nervous fit we both know you get when somebody actually capitalizes "God" on this board. Take your medicine, dear, and it will all be alright. Until our next meeting, I wish you hugs and kisses from your favorite flat-earther!!
Fallenman,
I'm so sorry for the loss of your father. You seem like a very nice man, an honest man, and I hope you find the peace you're seeking. If I could give you a hug, I would. I lost my best friend in a car wreck a few years ago, and I wrestled with the same thing.
Amy
Ive spent my entire life questioning why we are here and where we are going... I've finally realized that I dont care why I'm here, im just going to make the best of the time I do have here, and I also realized that the answer to where we are going will never be answered in this lifetime. You can be 150% sure that Christianity will answer this question, but I realize and shall always realize that there will always be that doubt of uncertainty. You've never been dead, and no preist or Christian scholar I have ever heard of has died and lived to tell about it. So I know my question will never be answered... I will never be satisfied. Becuase the only person who could satisfy my desire to know what happens when we die, is already dead. As for my father... I knew my father. I can fathom what he guessed. I will ask those questions again throughout my life, but I know they will never be answered... they can never be answered... I realize we dont know and will never know...
Hello bob,
It’s such a delightful surprise to see you back on this board, posting away all those important comments about how horrible religion is and how smart you are. By now, however, I thought you’d discover more innovative insults to Christians than “flat earthers”—alas, the creative juices don’t always flow for your scientific geniuses. You are a genius, aren’t you, bob? Of course you are! I’m amazed that, given your important work as a scientist, you find time to educate all these illiterate, child abusing, flat-earther Christians! Do you have children, bob? Oh, I forgot, my dear simian is far too busy posting to have children. Do you have a wife, bob? Oh, my genius ape is far too busy with his great, scientific thoughts to be concerned with procreation. In the interest of furthering the cause of science, I thought I would spend a little online time with you, dear. It would obviously be the most meaningful time you’ve spent with a female lately, darling. May I call you darling, my precious bob?? You’re not nice, bob, but do I ever find you attractive!!
ok fallenman,
You "don't really care where you came from."..and you don't care where you're going. When you do get around to really facing the question of "why are were here" and "what happens when we die", then you might be interested in what your father found so interesting.
To be fair to schumacr, who I have been not very nice to, he was the only one on another thread who thanked me for some information about the Dover trial, which is evidence that even though I think some people are wrong about everything, everyone has some good qualities.
If anyone is interested, here is the Dover trial information that I was surprised to hear schumacr has been reading.
http://www.sciohost.org/ncse/kvd/Padian/Padian_transcript.html
Thanks again schumacr for taking the time to look at it.
schumacr, who I'm not surprised decided to run away after I figured out it was him who censored my comments, provided the following jesus website as a source of information about science.
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs
From schumacr's jesus website: "Noah took 2 of every kind of animal onto the ark, including dinosaurs. The harsh post-flood environment made it hard for the dinosaurs to live long after this. Some may have been hunted to extinction, and others were unable to survive as they degenerated (part of the curse God placed on the earth when Adam sinned), and lost some of their original abilities (the T-rex lost use of its arms for instance, as they shriveled and became useless)."
Any child knows dinosaurs became extinct about 65 million years ago, and our ancestors evolved into modern humans only about 100,000 or 200,000 years ago. According to schumacr's jesus website, dinosaurs lived on a boat with humans, an idea any child would laugh at. What made me laugh out loud was this part: "the T-rex lost use of its arms for instance, as they shriveled and became useless". That really surprised me because I did not know creationists were that dumb.
I just talked to a biologist about it because I wanted to share the joke. This was his reply:
"Let me mention that the arms of Tyrannosaurus are neither shriveled nor useless. The upper arm bone is as long as mine, but as thick as my entire upper arm. The muscle attachment sites, from the shoulders (including the wishbone) to the fingers, are humongous. The arms are "reduced to the max": speed, and range, of movement entirely sacrificed to sheer unrestricted power. The Force was with Tyrannosaurus."
The question is, should people get their information about science from a jesus website, or should they ask a real scientist who knows what he's talking about?
Oh by the way look at this definition of the wishbone: "The forked bone anterior to the breastbone of most birds, formed by the fusion of the clavicles."
There's a wishbone in birds and the T-Rex had a wishbone. That's exactly what I would expect for 2 species who share a common ancestor. The flat-earthers will claim a common magician but now we all know how ignorant they are.
"Modern scientists all over the world are now side stepping the origin debate due to the vast discoveries that point to the necessity of an intelligent and caring Creator."
ProfessorX, the very first sentence from your website which I quoted above is LYING.
There are NO biologists, or any other scientists who aren't totally incompetent, who are "now side stepping the origin debate due to the vast discoveries that point to the necessity of an intelligent and caring Creator."
If you're going to provide links to websites written by liars, nobody is going to take you seriously. Believe in your supernatural magician if you want, but you got a lot of nerve to lie about scientists. There's so much dishonesty on this blog, sometimes I think being a liar is a requirement for becoming a christian.
My goodness... again I say, of course Intelligent Design and Creationists are going to dispute evolution because of their beliefs. But I want to see what the biologists themselves say about evolution...
Why don't you flat-earthers, who are constantly lying about science, dream up some lie for this, or you could, as usual, find some liar for jesus to get your lies. Personally I think it's extremely immoral to lie, and you evolution-deniers are lying constantly. If you can't invent your own lies, there is no shortage of professional liars for jesus. The problem is, everyone knows you're a liar. You are not fooling anyone.
http://www.biologynews.net/archives/2005/04/22/_um_team_recovers_ancient_whale_in_egyptian_desert.html
"The 1989 team discovered that Basilosaurus still retained tiny, useless legs, feet, and toes representing hind legs that were lost at a later stage of whale evolution."
Like I said earlier, the DNA evidence you liars keep lying about, even though you don't know anything about it, is the most powerful evidence for evolution. I would explain it to you, but you would not be able to understand it. You are too god-soaked to understand anything. The only thing you are able to do is constantly lie about everything to defend your childish belief in the invisible magician.
Humans didnt evolve from monkeys
And here it is ...
DARWINISM and ATHEISM: UNSCIENTIFIC & MYTHICAL
http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
I mean knowing that I evolved from something else does not help me do what I want to do in life, same way that knowing i was created wouldnt change what I want to do in life. While to you the implications are far reaching... And the reason I argue at all about this is because people say that theres no evidence for evolution, that its faulty, that it doesnt answer this or that... Scientists dont hold the same view as you guys.... the people who do this for a living... and if your only source of information regarding scientists is ID, then of course you are going to disagree with evolution.. but ID has already been overturned if not at in your eyes in mine... And I say this because, evolutionists argued with every aspect of evidence that ID claimed to have and overturned it. So there was nothing left to say for ID....
Look at this comment: "In the beginning, God....." Looking for anwers? That's a very good place to start.
It's impossible to reason with a person who thinks answers to anything can be found in a person's delusions. Does this person want to study scientific evidence? No, of course not. This person doesn't even know what evidence is. He doesn't even know what science is. All he knows about is his worthless ancient bible written by people who didn't know anything, people who were almost as dumb as today's creationists.
The only possible solution to all this ignorance about the natural world is getting rid of all gods, and the sooner the better.
The problem is religions survive, despite how idiotic they are, because of the child abuse called religious training. The brainless preachers and the dishonest parents get to the kid long before they know what science is. When they finally learn about science, they are already trained to believe all scientists don't know what they're talking about. Some of these children are actually trained to harass their science teachers. This is true and I have evidence for it.
There's no question about it. God makes people stupid. The god invention was our worst mistake and it must somehow be eradicated.
Im looking for answers, but not to the question of evolution. Evolution is a tangent that I went on, but if I begin believing in God, I will hold Evolution as a constant still. And yes I do understand that the desire to believe that God created the world is hard to let go of.... Dont get me wrong, im not insulting you, I am just saying if for example you are wrong, then that means you'll have to drastically change your view on life right? So of course you are going to fight against anyone trying to change that view... Personally I could care less how I came to be, that never really bothered me, all I cared about was that I came to be... but I believe that evolution is a sound subject of science, that all scientists believe is true... unless you are a scientist of ID. Which they found out is simply Creationism reworded.
Yes we can start in the middle lol... we are given the building blocks to build a tree, and you are asking me who built the blocks? Why do we need to know who built the blocks, the tree can still be built with out knowing who built the blocks... And you pose a very good question, why do we have a spleen? lol why do we have nipples... thats a good one =/. They havent found all the evidence for all the transitions... for humans for example... theyve found more primative forms of humans for simplicity sake known as the "cave-man" Take that a bit further back and you get some ancestor that had the characteristics of a much more primitive subject. They didnt have to be exactly monkeys... because monkeys are considered the evolved form of what ever ancestor gave rise to humans and monkeys. Monkeys evolved to be able to survive in the environment they were given and they do so relatively well. But just because they havent found the very FIRST ancestor of human and monkey, doesnt mean that there isnt one, just means that we cant find it and sadly probably wont, BECAUSE! I mean... bones that old will have probably turned to dust by now, those bones were probably turned into petroleum by now.... but its still possible that they may find a bone that old...
Fallenman, I have a suggestion. Before the world can be rid of the stupidity of creationism, some way must be found to get rid of all the god beliefs. It's obvious from the comments here, a belief in god makes people stupid. It pointless to explain science to a stupid person. First it is necessary to get rid of the cause of the stupidity, the belief in the magician the flat-earthers call god.
Ok.. so what are the responses to the appendix and tonsils? Why is the Krebs Cycle not created perfectly? And we can give ourselves purpose, what happens in the universe in nature in evolution does not in any way inhibit our ability to give ourselves a purpose... and the reasonss questions are asked is because people believes it contradicts religion... so of course they are going to object... and what were the big questions asked that were side-stepped? For the eternal universe? As I've said before.. we dont know. Science does not know with certainty yet. Its still something that is being researched. The Big Bang is not the end of the road, its just a fork in the road leading to the same place. No one knows how the universe started. Many scientists believe it might be something like the Big Bang. But its not a certain. The proof though is in quantum physics. In science we are allowed to claim ignorance of something we dont know, because the next step would be to find out. But right now Big Bang is the big theory, and until it is overturned it will be the one with the most evidence. But it can still be overturned.
ok fallenman, shumacr is right you know, but here's another chance for you.
"Now then, the beginning of life is crucial to Evolution with out question, but one does not need to know why we came into existance or how, to know that Evolution works upon living creatures." Really, I thought this was the foundation of evolution -- that this became this...became thisl...became this, and that's HOW we came to be.
" Somehow there was a creature that began to live, and as soon as one creature began living, Evolution began. We dont need to know how life began in order to prove evolution, we know evolution works." So, you can begin in the middle when developing a theory and just jump right in, you don't have to begin at the beginning? No, that's not exactly scientific. We're right back to "Where did it all start, how do you get something from nothing.
"They have found transitional animals going back to the dinosaurs that have explained the transitions from one species to another. Dinosaurs became reptiles and such, and reptiles became birds, this they found out. They've found transitional animals my dear ^^." Really. I gave you examples of the ape theorie on transitions, you give me information on your above statement.
Now then as to ID. Ok if ID happened then this is what we can conclude, some creator created us and the world. Ok. Why did they create animals this way, why humans that way, why birds this way? Why did God give us opposable thumbs? Why did he give deer antlers? Why did he give polar bears insolation?" I already told you about polar bears - this is what allows them to live in the arctic. Opposable thumbs were so we could hold things. Birds wings so that they can fly,...........come on, he created all things for a purpose, with what they needed, and would you be happier if everything looked the same and functioned the same? And oh yes, being a nurse I can tell you why we have tailbones - they are the anchor for muscles, etc. Can you tell me what function the spleen serves, and why God gave us one even though we can live perfectly fine without one?
Are you looking for anwers fallenman, or are you looking for something to fill your time for kicks?
"In the beginning, God....." Looking for anwers? That's a very good place to start.
From the website schumacr recommended as a good source of scientific knowledge:
"I believe that Dinosaurs were created on Day 6, the same day as Adam. I believe that they lived for a few thousand years, until the flood came. Noah took 2 of every kind of animal onto the ark, including dinosaurs. The harsh post-flood environment made it hard for the dinosaurs to live long after this. Some may have been hunted to extinction, and others were unable to survive as they degenerated (part of the curse God placed on the earth when Adam sinned), and lost some of their original abilities (the T-rex lost use of its arms for instance, as they shriveled and became useless)."
When I read "the T-rex lost use of its arms for instance, as they shriveled and became useless" I laughed out loud. These are the words of 5 year old, or an adult as smart as a 5 year old. Actually most 5 year old children could never dream up anything this stupid. And schumacr wanted me to use this website for information about science. You know what I think about you schumacr.
schumacr, I have been giving you and the other flat-earthers all the respect they deserve, and they deserve no respect at all. You and they would rather believe there's a magician in the clouds directing everything, creating every insect, every species of bacteria, every ape including the human apes, instead of the natural explanation accepted by every single competent biologist in the world. Meanwhile you and the others are constantly LYING about science and LYING about scientists. Please explain why LIARS like you deserve any respect.
Also, please explain why I should respect somebody like you who censors any comments he doesn't like. The only thing worse than your total ignorance of the natural world is your extremely immoral censorship of my comments.
"Jesus, Dinosaurs and More" is a webpage of Scientific evidence supporting the Biblical account of Creation."
That's the website you gave me. I think you want to be laughed at.
schumacr, I think it was you who flagged my comments as inappropriate. You're the only other person here, and my honest comments were erased very quickly. It was you, wasn't it?
Why do some whales have legs, feet, and sometimes even toes inside their bodies? It's because they descended from land animals. I have evidence for all of this. What to see it, Mr. Censor Man? You could even look it up if you weren't so lazy.
I would explain the more powerful DNA evidence you flat-earthers keep LYING about, but you would not be able to understand it. You could even look it up and do the hard work of at least trying to understand it, but you are terrified of science, and of course, like all creationists, you are LAZY.
If you read my comments that you deleted, then you know what else I (and all scientists) think about you.
schumacr, how would you like it if I deleted your comments? Censorship is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself.
OK. Humans with tails? Why the tail-bone? Good night, those are mid-1980's arguments guys. You'll need to do much better than that I'm afraid. Gould, etc., all tried to posit the position you're so confidently asserting, but it didn't wash. Plenty of material out there if you want to check it out. Just one source is reprinted here: http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/tailbone.html.
Now how about answering my question or supplying us with proofs for your eternal universe? Or will it just be another par for the course round of insults? Tough I know to combat the nervousness, lack of confidence, and insecurity you feel in your position, which manifests itself through insults and hate. A lot of people don't want there to be a God, I understand...
As fun as this has been, I feel this has degraded into a grade-school shoving match, so I’m going to end my participation now. Jesus tells us that sometimes you just need to stop as there are those who won’t listen to the truth. In Matthew 15:14, He tells his disciples (regarding the crass religious leaders He was facing off against), “Let them alone…” Sad, but disappointing.
Wishing you all the best and I’m sure we’ll meet again on another thread.
<<I mean why did God give us an Appendix? What use do tonsils have? why do we have a tailbone?>>
Why don't you answer those questions schumacr?
Your "I have a better question" is not an answer. Stop being a coward schumacr. Answer those questions.
The reason we have a tailbone is because our ancestors had tails. Sometimes human babies are born with tails. What to see the pictures schumacr?
schumacr, against your idiotic childish creationism I have the entire scientific community, and they all accept evolution completely. Those scientists laugh at you schumacr. Do you like being laughed at by scientists? Are you proud of that? I bet you are proud of it. I bet you believe those scientists go to hell, don't you? Sorry, very very sorry, but you totally disgust me.
"Disobedience and sin brought death."
Prove it schumacr. That's a very wild claim. I want the proof for it. Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence. Let's have it. If you don't have any evidence for it, why don't you admit you were either lying, or you are willing to believe any nonsense, no matter how idiotic is?
For once I would like to write some honest comments here without some know-nothing coward censoring it. I ask for evidence, instead the immoral christians erase the question.
How does that work schumacr? Did you flag my honesty as inappropriate? I'm just wondering who the coward is.
Wow, that was fast. The cowardly thought police don't waste any time.
<<I mean why did God give us an Appendix? What use do tonsils have? why do we have a tailbone?>>
I have a better question, why would you, who are the accidental by-product of a purposeless universe, spend so much time here and write with so much purpose in mind? No offense intended (seriously), but you're a living contradiction. Atheists simply cannot live out their beliefs because God has hard-wired you differently than the direction you're trying to go.
If you take the time and read back through these posts, I think it's very interesting to watch the pattern that has developed. No thought at all given to the big questions that have been posed - merely side-steps around or complete ignoring of the questions those on the side of theism have posed. Next, use of assumptive language or logical fallacies that demonstrate a willful disregard for things you don't want to be true. As I have said, if macroevolution is true, then we should all believe in it - no questions ask. But ignoring the evidence of DNA (the language of God - Collins) and stating there is no evidence for God's design after thinking it over these last few days is preposterous and exemplifies a willful turning aside from the truth.
You see, belief is more than being informed of the facts or knowledge transfer - it involves the will. Plenty of people know the truth about various things, but they *choose* to not adhere to the truth and live differently. Simply put, Truth + Action = Belief. Suppression or ignoring the truth is the typical route because you can't prove a truth wrong, or as Thomas Aquinas said, "The contrary of a truth can never be demonstrated".
It's a "will" problem my friends, not a facts problem. And as Richard Weaver (who taught English literature at University of Chicago and influenced Alan Bloom who wrote "The Closing of the American Mind") said: “Nothing good can come if the will is wrong. And to give evidence to him who loves not the truth is to give him more plentiful material for misinterpretation.”
I wish you the best.
ifeelfine72 - Regarding your question, I assume you're a theistic evolutionist? If not, then my mistake. But if you are, my answer to you is no, I don't believe evolution can at all be married to historic Christianity. Why? What does evolution depend upon? Death. What does God's Word tell us about how death came into the world? Disobedience and sin brought death. Now if man supposedly evolved through going from the goo to you, then all those previous beings died before coming to man, who the Bible says brought death into the world. See how the puzzle pieces start not fitting together? I would respectfully ask you to rethink your position as you'll need a big red marker to cross out lots of verses in Romans and elsewhere to make your theology work, and in the end, you'll still have a belief system that is inconsistent and incoherent.
I mean why did God give us an Appendix? What use do tonsils have? why do we have a tailbone?
Molecular and genetics also tells us a lot about evolution as well ;P.
Lol, I love that argue becaues it tests the foundation of my beliefs. Now then, the beginning of life is crucial to Evolution with out question, but one does not need to know why we came into existance or how, to know that Evolution works upon living creatures. Somehow there was a creature that began to live, and as soon as one creature began living, Evolution began. We dont need to know how life began in order to prove evolution, we know evolution works. They have found transitional animals going back to the dinosaurs that have explained the transitions from one species to another. Dinosaurs became reptiles and such, and reptiles became birds, this they found out. They've found transitional animals my dear ^^. Now then as to ID. Ok if ID happened then this is what we can conclude, some creator created us and the world. Ok. Why did they create animals this way, why humans that way, why birds this way? Why did God give us opposable thumbs? Why did he give deer antlers? Why did he give polar bears insolation?
fallenman, this might help you to understand what ID has given to us:
"ID tells us nothing about genetics or molecular biology" - quote from your post.
My answer - genetics and molecular biology tell us everything about ID
fallenman - your explanation of a transitional form is very vague and general in description and examples. A transition is a passage from one form or state to another, and those are the missing links. And no, they aren't there. Case in point, all those supposed monkey forms that led to man were disproved.
And yes, whatever allowed the supposed big bang has EVERYTHING to do with evolution. The contention is the big bang is what allowed everything to combine to be this, to be this, to be this, and so on and so on until pooooof! billions of years later man evolved. To have anything to go BANG you must have something. Where did that something come from? That is pivotal to evolution. You can't evolve something from nothing. zero times zero is zero, zero plus zero is nothing. Nothing equals nothing.
Of course Darwin was ignorant of the complexity of life, which is why he thought it was such a simple concept. However, though I can list a number of reasons why it hasn't been proven, and they keep changing things because their theory keeps running into roadblocks, you can read up on it for yourself. But you don't really want to believe it.
And yes, I did tell you what ID has accomplished. All those things you've listed are by design.
Let me give you one tiny example. Why are polar bears the only bears that can live in that frigid environment, when all other bears could not possible survive? Hint - the answer has something to do with an air space that acts as an insulator. Look it up. And you expect me to believe that one little change, that happened as a mutation, could take one bear, (and then multiply it by I don't know how many times,) form one animal out of a species that could live in an area that was non-travelable distance from it's normal environment. And that bear not only COULD live there but MUST live there to survive. How providential! And that was ONE TINY CHANGE. I could more easily believe in the tooth fairy hahaha.
"All things were made through Him (Christ), and without Him nothing was made that was made."
John l:3. That's ID. And some of those scientists, through the study of evolution, have discovered God through that same study, but it has been right there for them to see all the time.
And what I meant about what does ID tell us, I mean what does it tell us scientifically about things... does it tell us why this animal has antlers why that animal has wings, does it tell us why we find dinosaur fossils, does it tell us why monkeys and humans are so similar... does it tell us why the moths in England changed color when all the smoot blackened the tree, does it tell us why flowers of the same type have short stems or long ones, green seeds or yellow seeds? Does it tell us why some frogs can not mate together and why others can? Things such as this.
:) yes there are many links, but they have found a lot of transitional fossils already, its like... they are putting together a fossil, and every now and then tehy get a new puzzle piece, that fits in exactly the right spot... that isnt to say that becuase we are missing a few pieces that we should give up and the puzzle doesnt work, i mean the all the other puzzle pieces fitted, and the other pieces have yet to be found. As for the beginning of life, the big bang and all that stuff... that has nothing to do with evolution. The Big Bang has more to do with quantum physics as developed by Einstein, life creating itself from non living matter is called abiogenesis, and both of these hypothesis are still being studied. There are alternative ideas to the same question, but they all have their valid points. Scientists only use one explanation to explain the development of life on earth. Evolution. Darwin may have been ignorant of the complexity of life at the molecular level, but he did not have the tools to dig that far... When scientists did finally dig that deep, they found that it confirmed Darwins theory rather than overturned it. The evidence is plentiful, and the evidence is still pouring in... :) Evolution is a sound theory as sound as the theory of gravity.
"As the Bible tells us, the very heavens proclaim Him."
And the Bible is fact because the Bible says the Bible is fact.
Your Bible is a pile of manure.
"ID tells us many things."
It sure does! It tell us there are people so childish, so brainwashed, so ignorant of all science, that they think a supernatural magician made people out of nothing. ID makes people stupid.
fallenman, ID tells us many things. The most important thing It tells us is that God has no competition, therefore it tells us everything.
Studying the makeup of everything down to the cellular level and beyond into the celluluar structures tells us how incredibly complicated everything is, which belies Darwin's assertion that the eye was a simple thing. The smallest changes would result in loss of function, or loss of life, or non-existence of life. Our very atmosphere is so precise, and is dependent upon so many factors (including placement of various spatial objects) that it boggles the mind. Hence you have scientists that have come to know God.
As the Bible tells us, the very heavens proclaim Him.
Ifeelfine -
I'll begin with Darwin himself, who says that if his theory is correct there will be thousands of transitional forms - those famous missing linkS (that S is for fallenman :) ). He also expressed unease, shall we say, for what this does for the idea that human beings have purpose.
The Genesis account of creation says "Then God said "Let there be...", and "Thus God made..." and "God set them in..." and "so God created..." , which doesn't sound like "and God set everything in motion...." .
THE big question is, so where did the "something" come from that allowed for the big bang. Even the evolution scientists can't answer that one (there's another one for you fallenman). And I know there are some that hold the view that God provided the "something", and let the whole process loose from there. But if that were true, then we'd be back to the same problem of if it is all random and purposeless, what are the purposes of our lives.
My Bible tells me that God made me for a purpose, and that I am wonderfully made, and that His works are marvelous, and that my days were fashioned for me (Ps 139), none of which sounds random to me.
Not to mention that there are quite a few scientists that came to know God through their work in evolutionary theory.
No, there is absolutely no danger of my faith being challenged by the evolution theory.
<<The theory of evolution is a theory that has withstood the tests over a 100 years. >>
Yes, well, the resurrection of Christ has withstood the test of over 2,000 years, as has the historicity of the Old and New Testaments. Now has there been objections to each? Sure.
That very close to lying, schumacr. No competent scientist denies evolution is a fact, so your "Now has there been objections to each? Sure." is extremely dishonest.
Also, how can you compare a miracle which couldn't possibly have happened to a proven scientific fact that has more evidence than our earth's orbit around the sun?
On another subject, in another thread my comments were deleted by the thought police because I criticized the insanity of the resurrection belief. I'm convinced Christians are cowards who are so terrified of any criticism of their religion they censor it.
While my comments about the breathtaking stupidity of Christianity are censored, the Christians here are constantly lying about science. This is more evidence Christians are the most immoral people on earth. They're liars and they censor anyone who tells the truth.
ifeel is right, evolution doesnt eliminate the possibility of a creator, the sooner we learn to accept evolution, the better the world will be. They use evolution to cure diseases, to do so many wonderful things, ID has yet to have done anything productive for the world around us. ID doesnt tell us anything about humanity or animals that inhabit this earth. ID tells us nothing about genetics or molecular biology. ID tells us nothing about anything =/.
GMG and schumacr - If you believed the factualness of evolution would it change your views on Christianity? My faith can stand up to the theory of evolution - in fact it makes my faith that much stronger and makes the awesomeness of God that much more . . . Awesome!
ID meanwhile makes me want to question a) the motives of those with that "theory" (and I use that word in the non-scientific sense) and b) the rationality of the person expounding it.
I've read posts by both of you before so I won't say that I question your faith if it can't stand up to evolution - because you've both proven at least on this post to be very sure of your faith. But I do question why you feel so strongly about it.
Galileo was persecuted as was Copernicus because they suggested / proved the Earth went around the Sun - pure heresy in its day. Now, everyone accepts that. Evolution is headed down that same path - do some homework on some credible, non DI science.
Links, there are many links that are missing. Sorry that I got so riled up, its just that Christians have seriously made me question the scientific soundness of evolution, because everyone swore they had evidence that trumped it. I have finally realized that there is no evidence going against evolution. So now im sort of 'mad' at you guys for making me question something, but I'm sorry it was unnecessary for me to behave that way.
No fallenman, they have not all been overturned. They are still looking for the missing link.
The thing about evolution is that there have been many objections but they have been all overturned, if an object is raised against a theory of science, and succeeds then the theory no longer works. Thats how it works in science. Which is what ID has tried to say but they failed =/.
The people who say evolution are in threat, are the scientists who believe in ID, they believe ID is a threat to evolution, when in actuality, there is no evidence backing up ID. As for the existance of the universe, that is a subject of abiogenisis, and has nothing to do with evolution. The theory that has to do with the beginning of time is still up for debate, its a topic of debate, as for evolution, it is not something that is debate.
<<The theory of evolution is a theory that has withstood the tests over a 100 years. >>
Yes, well, the resurrection of Christ has withstood the test of over 2,000 years, as has the historicity of the Old and New Testaments. Now has there been objections to each? Sure.
Likewise, the use of assumptive language you exhibit is bad in a debate because it doesn't eclipse the fact that plenty of scientists (Jastrow, Collins, Hoyle, etc.) believe evolution is a theory in crisis.
Finally, I find it very interesting that you still won't answer the larger question of how everything got here to begin with. Give me your proofs for an eternal universe.
Just goes to show you.....Some men for the past 100 years have been trying their best to make a monkey out of themselves. :)
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Kakuo, S., Asaoka, K. and Ide, T. 1999. ‘Human is a unique species among primates in terms of telomere length.’ Biochem Biophys Res Commun 263:308-314.
Knight, A., Batzer, M.A., Stoneking, M., Tiwari, H.K., Scheer, W.D., Herrera, R.J., and Deninger, P.L. 1996. ‘DNA sequences of Alu elements indicate a recent replacement of the human autosomal genetic complement.’ Proc. Natl Acad Sci USA 93:4360-4364.
Parsons T.J., Muniec, D.S., Sullivan, K., Woodyatt, N., Alliston-Greiner, R., Wilson, M.R., Berry, D.L., Holland, K.A., Weedn, V.W., Gill, P., and M.M. Holland. 1997. A high observed substitution rate in the human mitochondrial DNA control region. Nat. Genet. 15:363-368.
Sigurgardottir, S., Helgason, A., Gulcher, J.R., Stefansson, K., and Donnelly P. 2000. ‘The mutation rate in the human mtDNA control region.’ Am J Hum Genet 66:1599-1609. "
continued:
Will evolution be called into question now that the similarity of chimpanzee and human DNA has been reduced from >98.5% to ~95%? Probably not. Regardless of whether the similarity was reduced even below 90%, evolutionists would still believe that humans and apes shared a common ancestor. Moreover, using percentages hides an important fact. If 5% of the DNA is different, this amounts to 150,000,000 DNA base pairs that are different between them!
A number of studies have demonstrated a remarkable similarity in the nuclear DNA and mtDNA among modern humans. In fact, the DNA sequences for all people are so similar that scientists generally conclude that there is a ‘recent single origin for modern humans, with general replacement of archaic populations.’8 To be fair, the estimates for a date of a ‘most recent common ancestor’ (MRCA) by evolutionists has this ‘recent single origin’ about 100,000-200,000 years ago, which is not recent by creationist standards. These estimates have been based on comparisons with chimpanzees and the assumption of a chimp/human common ancestor approximately 5 million years ago. In contrast, studies that have used pedigrees or generational mtDNA comparisons6, 10, 11 have yielded a much more recent MRCA—even 6,500 years!10
Research on observable generational mutation events leads to a more recent common ancestor for humans than phylogenetic estimates that assume a relationship with chimpanzees. Mutational hotspots are believed to account for this difference.6 However, in both cases, they are relying on uniformitarian principles—that rates measured in the present can be used to extrapolate the timing of events in the distant past.
The above examples demonstrate that the conclusions of scientific investigations can be different depending on how the study is done. Humans and chimps can have 95% or >98.5% similar DNA depending on which nucleotides are counted and which are excluded. Modern humans can have a single recent ancestor <10,000 or 100,000-200,000 years ago depending on whether a relationship with chimpanzees is assumed and which types of mutations are considered."
continued:
These types of differences are not generally included in calculations of percent DNA similarity.
In one of the most extensive studies comparing human and chimp DNA,3 the researchers compared >19.8 million bases. While this sounds like a lot, it still represents slightly less than 1% of the genome. They calculated a mean identity of 98.77% or 1.23% differences. However, this, like other studies only considered substitutions and did not take insertions or deletions into account as the new study by Britten did. A nucleotide substitution is a mutation where one base (A, G, C, or T) is replaced with another. An insertion or deletion (indel) is found where there are nucleotides missing when two sequences are compared.
The Britten2 study looked at 779 kilobase pairs to carefully examine differences between chimpanzees and humans. He found that 1.4% of the bases had been substituted, which was in agreement with previous studies (98.6% similarity). However, he found a much larger number of indels. Most of these were only 1 to 4 nucleotides in length, although there were a few that were > 1000 base pairs long. Surprisingly, the indels added an additional 3.4 % of base pairs that were different.
While previous studies have focused on base substitutions, they have missed perhaps the greatest contribution to the genetic differences between chimps and humans. Missing nucleotides from one or the other appear to account for more than twice the number of substituted nucleotides. Although the number of substitutions is about ten times higher than the number of indels, the number of nucleotides involved in indels is greater. These indels were reported to be equally represented in the chimp and human sequences. Therefore, the insertions or deletions were not occurring only in the chimp or only in the human and could also be interpreted as intrinsic differences.
Specific examples of these differences include:
Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes while chimpanzees have 24. Evolutionary scientists believe that one of the human chromosomes has been formed through the fusion of two small chromosomes in the chimp instead of an intrinsic difference resulting from a separate creation.
At the end of each chromosome is a string of repeating DNA sequences called a telomere. Chimpanzees and other apes have about 23 kilobases (a kilobase is 1,000 base pairs of DNA) of repeats. Humans are unique among primates with much shorter telomeres only 10 kilobases long.7
While 18 pairs of chromosomes are ‘virtually identical’, chromosomes 4, 9 and 12 show evidence of being ‘remodeled.’5 In other words, the genes and markers on these chromosomes are not in the same order in the human and chimpanzee. Instead of ‘being remodeled’ as the evolutionists suggest, these could, logically, also be intrinsic differences because of a separate creation.
The Y chromosome in particular is of a different size and has many markers that do not line up between the human and chimpanzee.1
Scientists have prepared a human-chimpanzee comparative clone map of chromosome 21 in particular. They observed ‘large, non-random regions of difference between the two genomes.’ They found a number of regions that ‘might correspond to insertions that are specific to the human lineage.’3
I am going to quote a report from the National Academy of Sciences.
" A new report in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences suggests that the common value of >98% similarity of DNA between chimp and humans is incorrect.2 Roy Britten, author of the study, puts the figure at about 95% when insertions and deletions are included. Importantly, there is much more to these studies than people realize.
The >98.5% similarity has been misleading because it depends on what is being compared. There are a number of significant differences that are difficult to quantify. A review by Gagneux and Varki4 described a list of genetic differences between humans and the great apes. The differences include ‘cytogenetic differences, differences in the type and number of repetitive genomic DNA and transposable elements, abundance and distribution of endogenous retroviruses, the presence and extent of allelic polymorphisms, specific gene inactivation events, gene sequence differences, gene duplications, single nucleotide polymorphisms, gene expression differences, and messenger RNA splicing variations.’4
Also they talked about the similarities between monkeys and humans. First off I want to state again that we did not come from Apes, we came from an ancestor that branched off, one into monkeys one into humans. The difference between monkeys and humans is that monkeys have 24 chromosomes and humans have 23. This is DNA, so they thought well if humans and monkeys came from the same ancesotrs, humans should have had 24 chromosomes, this was the only thing that was baffling scientists. What they found was that somewhere in the past two of our chromosomes merged together to make one, and so thats why now we have 23 chromsomes, and this was the 'Mutation' that made us better smarter animals. Science in the working for you =/.
The theory of evolution is a theory that has withstood the tests over a 100 years. Theory's in science does not mean its a haphazard hypothesis with no evidence, for example, gravity is conisdered a theory. We're all pretty sure gravity exists, were not goin to ever fall up, but its still considered a theory. As the sciences of Genetics and Molecular Biology developed, rather than harming evolution, which it very well could have, it confirmed evolution in even more detail than ever before. Now they could figure out the similarities of species via DNA, and they could take the DNA of fossils and compare it to eachother, and so on and so forth. Scientists believe that Evolution theory is not going to be disputed any time soon, if ever. They have actually expanded upon it more than what is taught in highschool text books, giving it more evidence for proof, but because of creationists fighting to keep it out, they couldnt add the even more evidence for science in textboooks. The reason I know all this, and I must than you guys for making me do my homework, after I finally wanted to get to the root of the cause, I watched the court case of Intelligent Design versus Evolution, that recent court case that had a school trying to enter ID into the schools. During that case they showed a torrent of evidence validating evolution, which convinced the judge without a shadow of a doubt, who was Christian, and many others, myself included, and they disproved Intelligent Design, including Michael Behe's arguement which was actually very good, I had read it myself a few days back, but even this arguement was proven incorrect. (his idea of irreducible complexity) Scientists regard Evolution as a given, only Christian scholars try to make creationism a science. I hope this helped some of you.
What a comforting thought - I'm just a hunk of stuff, with no intrinsic purpose or worth. Now, tell me again, just HOW are you going to build self esteem Mr. Child Psychologist?
Hurry and read this before the beligerant angry atheists flag this or take it off cause they turn a blind ear to the truth.
For those of you who really care about being truthful, you can read the rest of the article concerning Darwinism: Survival without Purpose, please got to the INstitute for Creation Research where many scientists who are born again Christians dispute the very theories that they were lied with and taught by the secular humanist systems when they at once were atheists as well. On their quests for disproving God, they found that the facts lead them to Christ. Now they follow Christ, and they teach the truth to others. Not by finding one bone and then painting a face that looks like "dolly the man-made fictionary monkey" around it, but by exposing the truth behind Creation.
For you Bob and Fallenman, I suggest you both read the book by Leigh Stroebel "The Case for Creation", as well as "The Case for Christ" This man was once a beligerant atheist on a quest to disprove Christianity. On his quest, He came to faith in The God who created Him and knew His name before the foundations of the world were made. If you're really that open minded, and think Christians are wrong in pointing out the facts, then why don't you curiously go and buy these books and read them for yourself. After all, they were written by a man that used to hold the same views you did at once, ahnd after closely examining the facts, he repented of his foolish thinking and gave his life to His Creator.
looks like angry atheist flagged me. I couldn't keep posting my views. so much for that freedom of speech bob and fallenman so deeply love.
Contnued article: http://www.icr.org/article/3513/
The Implications
Many texts are very open about the implications of Darwinism for theism. One teaches that Darwin's immeasurably important contribution to science was to show that, despite life's apparent evidence of design and purpose, mechanistic causes explain all biological phenomena. The text adds that by coupling "undirected, purposeless variation to the blind, uncaring process of natural selection, Darwin made theological or spiritual explanations of the life processes superfluous."14 The author concludes by noting that "it was Darwin's theory of Evolution that provided a crucial plank to the platform of mechanisms and materialism…that has been the stage of most western thought."15 Another text even stated directly that humans were created by a random process, not a loving, purposeful God, and:
The real difficulty in accepting Darwin's theory has always been that it seems to diminish our significance…. |Evolution| asked us to accept the proposition that, like all other organisms, we too are the products of a random process that, as far as science can show, we are not created for any special purpose or as part of any universal design.16
These texts are all clearly teaching religious ideas, not science. An excellent example is a text that openly ruled out not only theistic evolution, but any role for God in nature, and demonstrated that Darwinism threatened theism by showing that humans and all life "could be explained by natural selection without the intervention of a god." Evolutionary "randomness and uncertainty had replaced a deity having conscious, purposeful, human characteristics."
The Darwinian view that… present-type organisms were not created spontaneously but formed in a succession of selective events that occurred in the past, contradicted the common religious view that there could be no design, biological or otherwise, without an intelligent designer…. In this scheme a god of design and purpose is not necessary…. Religion has been bolstered by… the comforting idea that humanity was created in the image of a god to rule over the world and its creatures. Religion provided emotional solace, a set of ethical and moral values…. Nevertheless, faith in religious dogma has been eroded by natural explanations of its mysteries…. The positions
continued article: http://www.icr.org/article/3513/
The Textbooks
To determine what schools are teaching about religious questions such as the purpose of life, I surveyed current science textbooks and found that they tend to teach the view that evolution is both nihilistic and atheistic. One of today's most widely-used textbooks stated that "evolution works without either plan or purpose…. Evolution is random and undirected."9 Another text by the same authors added that Darwin knew his theory "required believing in philosophical materialism, the conviction that matter is the stuff of all existence and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its byproducts." The authors continued:
Darwinian evolution was not only purposeless but also heartless--a process in which...nature ruthlessly eliminates the unfit. Suddenly, humanity was reduced to just one more species in a world that cared nothing for us. The great human mind was no more than a mass of evolving neurons. Worst of all, there was no divine plan to guide us.10
Another text taught that humans are just "a tiny, largely fortuitous, and late-arising twig on the enormously arborescent bush of life" and the belief that a "progressive, guiding force, consistently pushing evolution to move in a single direction" is now known to be "misguided."11 Many texts teach that evolution is purposeless and has no goal except to achieve brute survival: the "idea that evolution is not directed towards a final goal or state has been more difficult for many people to accept than the process of evolution itself."12 One major text openly teaches that humans were created by a blind, deaf, and dumb watchmaker--namely natural selection, which is "totally blind to the future."
Humans...came from the same evolutionary source as every other species. It is natural selection of selfish genes that has given us our bodies and our brains…. Natural selection…explains…the whole of life, the diversity of life, the complexity of life, |and| the apparent design in life."13
http://www.icr.org/article/3513/
Darwinism: Survival without Purpose
by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.*
Humans have always wondered about the meaning of life...life has no higher purpose than to perpetuate the survival of DNA...life has no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.1 --Richard Dawkins
Evolution is "deceptively simple yet utterly profound in its implications,"2 the first of which is that living creatures "differ from one another, and those variations arise at random, without a plan or purpose."3 Evolution must be without plan or purpose because its core tenet is the natural selection of the fittest, produced by random copying errors called mutations. Darwin "was keenly aware that admitting any purposefulness whatsoever to the question of the origin of species would put his theory of natural selection on a very slippery slope."4 Pulitzer Prize author Edward Humes wrote that the fact of evolution was obvious but "few could see it, so trapped were they by the human…desire to find design and purpose in the world." He concluded:
Darwin's brilliance was in seeing beyond the appearance of design, and understanding the purposeless, merciless process of natural selection, of life and death in the wild, and how it culled all but the most successful organisms from the tree of life, thereby creating the illusion that a master intellect had designed the world. But close inspection of the watchlike "perfection" of honeybees' combs or ant trails…reveals that they are a product of random, repetitive, unconscious behaviors, not conscious design.5
The fact that evolution teaches that life has no purpose beyond perpetuating its own survival is not lost on teachers. One testified that teaching evolution "impacted their consciences" because it moved teachers away from the "idea that they were born for a purpose… something completely counter to their mindset and beliefs."6
In a study on why children resist accepting evolution, Yale psychologists Bloom and Weisberg concluded that the evolutionary way of viewing the world, which the authors call "promiscuous teleology," makes it difficult for them to accept evolution. Children "naturally see the world in terms of design and purpose."7 The ultimate purposelessness of evolution, and thus of the life that it produces, was eloquently expressed by Professor Lawrence Krauss as follows: "We're just a bit of pollution…. If you got rid of us…the universe would be largely the same. We're completely irrelevant."8
bob,
I’m glad you’re here because I’ve always liked chatting with people like you. There you are in front of your computer screen, your eyes wide open, a little snicker on your face, ready to start another day of bashing God. I can see it now…all those dog eared copies of richard dawkins and all the other great thinkers in your bookshelf. Keep writing those letters, bob, and do what dawkins commissioned you to do—try to kill Christianity.
It’s not easy, is it, bob? Being the kid that other kids picked on. Being the adult that other adults sneer at behind your back. But you’re smart, bob! They’re just a bunch of superstitious idiots, and you couldn’t care less what they said! Ever lost anybody, bob? Not talking about your car keys. I’m talking about your mom, your dad, whoever it is you cared for at one time or another who’s rotting in the ground now. Don’t think too much of that, though, do you, bob? Certainly not gonna turn toward some 2000 year old superstition to give you some childish fantasy about them being alive, are you, bob? You’re far too smart for that!! You know you’re nothing, don’t you, bob? Everything those other kids said about you was true. And all the stuff those other adults keep saying about you—well, that’s true, too. You have no life, bob. People around you don’t care for you any more than you care for them. Sure, people will use you. But there’s nothing there, bob. You’re all used up very quickly and all that’s left is some hate-filled person in front of a computer screen at all hours surfing all the Christian blog sites to attack a belief in God. People move on from you, bob, because you’re wasted, and the people who do love you can’t cope well with all your hatred. You’re obviously not a nice person, bob, but you’re obviously so smart! But not smart enough to be richard dawkins. Not smart enough for anyone to care one way or another, even after you’re rotting in the ground. Even then, bob, they’ll still be raising Churches. When your skin dries to leather on your bones, bob, they’ll still be raising Churches! You live for nothing, bob. Maybe that’s true for these superstitious Christians, but at least they have each other. You don’t have anything. No past, no present, and no future. But, wow!, bob sure is smart!!!
Euripedan
<<Atheists CAN believe in good and evil without believing in a personal God. Atheists can love their families, their friends, their communities, their nation, their world. Atheists are not some strate of sub-humans. Many, perhaps most, have wrestled with faith before; but have been approached by Christians with arrogance and condescension.>>
No one is denying anything in your statement. However, I stand by my claim that there is no ultimate reason atheists should do any of what you write. If everything is time+chance+matter, then there is no ultimate moral absolute an atheist can appeal to and morality ultimately becomes arbitrary and individualistic. In other words, if man is the measure of all things, then which man is it going to be?
Darwin himself saw this and wrote that if it really was by tooth and claw that species moved ahead, he shuddered to think what would become of man and what man would become. He was right - drive atheism to its logical conclusion and it's a very terrifying place to be.
We atheists like to share. Invisible cosmic muffin and magic man and invisible friend and universe boss are used by everyone. It's called sharing. The point is your god is a lot like the tooth fairy. It's imaginary so it doesn't matter what it's called. My favorite word for god I can't use here because the christian thought police would erase my comments again. When christians aren't lying, they are busy censoring the truth. Isn't it interesting the people who claim to get their moral values from the man from outer space are the most immoral people in human history. When they aren't throwing jews into gas chambers, or yelling at science teachers, or brainwashing their children, they are constantly lying about science and constantly trying to censor the truth. Their immorality is disgusting.
GMG, like most Americans I was brainwashed by christian liars when I was a gullible 6 year old. I grew up and threw out the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, and the magic man. Apparently you never grew up. Now when you're not talking to your invisible friend, you spend your time copying other people's comments. How about telling us how old the earth is. Also, where did people come from? Did they develop from other animals, or did your magic man say "poof" to make them magically appear? I patiently wait for your dumb answer.
GMG, why don't you tell everyone here how old you think the earth is? I'm betting your answer will be wrong by a few billion years. Or would you rather spend all day copying other people's comments?
Bobc - some quotes from your posts:
"...if I see somebody lying, I will call them a liar."
"I have never met a dishonest atheist, but the world is teeming with christian liars"
"You said "Many, perhaps most, have wrestled with faith before..." when talking about atheists. It's extremely incorrect to say that because atheists don't have any faith to wrestle with.
You have already told us that you used to believe ... so based on the above, I must tell you that you are a liar.
"Some of my comments about the problems creationists have were censored and I'm very mad about it"
You have never been anything but mad on any of your posts.
"the invisible cosmic muffin that christians call god"
I believe that this colorful term for God originated with a quote you gave us from a biologist, so are you also a plagerist, or just slipping?
You are one angry person, full of vitriole, and you are not likely to get us to respond in kind. Whether you acknowledge it or not, we as Christians answer to God before man, and in you He sees worth.
May God help you as you wrestle with your tortured soul.
You're still ok Euripedan, but maybe not as ok as I thought.
Hitler was a christian, and it was christians who willingly helped murder milliions of women and children for jesus. Stalin was a communist and he was insane, and that's why he killed millions, not because he didn't believe in your universe boss.
You like to talk about the violent 20th Century. More important is what is going on today. Virtually every conflict is god related. We would not be wasting 1.6 trillion dollars thru 2008 in Iraq and Afghanistan if not for 9/11 and god made 9/11 possible. The muslim terrorists believe in heaven and that's what made 9/11 possible. I don't know about you, but the more crazy christians also believe in heaven. The crazy christians look at educated people like you and they think they are sane. The terrorists look at the crazy christians and they think they're sane. The muslims sure didn't get the heaven idea from atheists. If everyone else but the terrorists were atheists, just maybe the muslims might doubt their heaven belief. How are they ever going to think there's something wrong with their dangerous heaven idea, when most of America believes the same thing? There is no question in my mind all the god believers in the world are at least partly responsible for 9/11 and the daily suicide bombings since then. Heaven is a childish cowardly belief and there's no excuse for believing it.
Who are the best liars? I have never met a dishonest atheist, but the world is teeming with christian liars. Lying for jesus is a big business in America that include the thugs working for the discovery institute and the subhumans who work for answersingenesis.
Anyone who believes in the big magic man in the sky is in the same group as those liars. You are educated and honest, but you share at least one belief the flat-earthers believe, the belief in the almighty galaxy boss. I would be ashamed to have anything to do with the creationists. The millions of creationists in the world would be reason enough for me to take god, rip it apart, and burn it. How much ignorance, how many millions of deaths of innocent people, should be accepted to keep believing in god? I say enough is enough. Let's get rid of ALL religious stupidity and let's get rid of it now.
Ok guys evolution is right.
Sorry to write so many tedious emails, Bob, but the website simply gives out when I try to load all into one big comment. So, I will abbreviate my comments as follows. I find hope and acceptance in my faith. Belief you say? You have no belief? Hmm. I argue that point along with Rene Decartes. You cannot set up ANY argument without premises that are, in themselves, accepted as valid prima facie. So, why believe a book based on 2,000 years of superstition? Obviously, I don't think it's totally superstition.
If you believe that only liars and illiterates believe in God, then you are indeed a fool. I leave you to war with your Fundamentalist adversaries. You are opposite wings of the same bird. That reminds me of Icarus ;-)
Live long and prosper, Mr. Bob! May you find God one day and learn to capitalize His name. If not, I still hope you have a great life!! Peace…
And I have to add this...
The greatest butchers of the last century make the Iraq fiasco look like a firecracker. Consider the twelve million or so casualties of Stalin and all the victims of the Holocaust. These atrocities were inflicted by an Atheist and a Fascist Secularist. You've given me your transitive linkage of any faith to 9/11. Please allow me to return the favor as follows: (1) your lack of tolerance is identical to that of any Fundamentalist, (2) 9/11 resulted from intolerance, (3) therefore, you are indirectly responsible for 9/11. Sound foolish? Sure it is; just as it was foolish when you wrote the same concept originally.
Bob,
Bob,
Christians didn't cause 9/11 any more than the Atheists did. Let's get real. We can transitively link any group of people we deem as undesirable to any horrid circumstance by the "Rule of 6." As far as the great magician in the sky comment goes, please feel free to use that or any other terminology you feel appropriate. If I can absorb silly name-calling, I hope you understand it would certainly make no difference to my God.
No, I don't believe in censoring you; but I feel that you are confusing honesty with bigotry. A lot of people throughout history have done that. Some of them Christians ;-) Based on their prejudices, they also extrapolate tremendously beyond the reach of their logic. Contrary to what you have stated, Christians have not been the worst "liars" to walk the earth. I've known more than one Atheist to lie with equal voracity.
Some of my comments about the problems creationists have were censored and I'm very mad about it. It took me a long time to write those comments, and somebody who doesn't like honest people erased them.
Whoever is responsible for censoring my comments, I would like to ask you, why are you so afraid of people who tell the truth? Censorship is extremely immoral. Whoever is so afraid of honesty that he erases it, should be ashamed of himself.
"God grants us free will in this life to choose right/wrong, love/hate."
schumacr, do you have any idea how dumb that sounds? Even cockroaches have free will. They can do anything they want. Why did the big magician in the sky have to give the human ape species free will? People are going to do what they want. They don't need the magic man's permission.
You said "I choose God."
Good for you! Did you choose the tooth fairy and the easter bunny also? Both of those creatures have more evidence than your invisible friend. Why don't you believe those myths also. At least millions of people haven't been murdered for the tooth fairy. If you're going to believe in mythical creatures, why don't you choose something that isn't responsible for ignorance and genocide?
Euripedan, Your comments were mostly very good, and you're obviously very educated, so of course you're not like the flat-earthers here who are afraid of evolution. You would be called a "moderate" christian, which is a lot better than being a totally insane christian, but it's still nothing to be proud of. The moderate christians indirectly support the crazy christians and the crazy christians indirectly support the muslim terrorists. Everyone looks at all the other god believers and they think they are normal but there's nothing normal about them. We Americans can't tell the muslims they're crazy because most Americans are just as crazy as they are. It's the moderate and educated christians like you that the nuts look at and so they think they're sane. That's why all god believers have to take some credit for the 9/11 attacks.
I suggest to help rid the world of massive ignorance and never ending religious violence, is give the man-made christian god a good kick into the garbage dump where it belongs, and then be glad to be rid of humanity's worst mistake.
Euripedan, Your comments are very good, even though they would have been much better if you left god out of it, and if you didn't attach the worthless adjective "theistic" to the scientific fact of evolution. Also, I could do without the bigotry remarks. I will say what I want to say, and for example if I see somebody lying, I will call them a liar. Most christians lie constantly about science and I'm sick of their immorality. They think they're a big deal because they get their moral values from the big magician in the sky, but christians are the most immoral people on earth. That's a fact I'm not going to be quiet about, I don't care if anyone calls me a bigot or tries to censor me. I have been censored twice today by the christian thought police and that's an excellent example of how immoral christians are. Censoring the truth is extremely immoral.
You said "Many, perhaps most, have wrestled with faith before..." when talking about atheists. It's extremely incorrect to say that because atheists don't have any faith to wrestle with. Faith is believing in impossible things that could never have any evidence and that's exactly what atheists don't do. Atheists require real scientific evidence for everything and that's why they don't believe in the invisible cosmic muffin that christians call god. Real atheists have made up their minds gods are man-made inventions less likely to exist than tooth fairies and they don't wrestle with it.
You said "If you interpret every word of the Bible literally, I believe you're going to run into a lot of scientific roadblocks."
Of course that's true so why not toss the Bible in the garbage where it belongs? How can a book have any value if it's full of lies?
"I believe that humanity is but one of many sentient races that God has created throughout the universe."
Great idea, but why invoke god here? An educated person like you should know the evolution of life does not need any supernatural help and doesn't need any supernatural inventor. That's why attaching the adjective "theistic" to evolution makes no sense. Why is it evolution only and not other scientific facts that get this dumb adjective "theistic"? Evolution works fine on its own, let's keep god out of it.
This all may sound heretical, but here goes. Atheists CAN believe in good and evil without believing in a personal God. Atheists can love their families, their friends, their communities, their nation, their world. Atheists are not some strate of sub-humans. Many, perhaps most, have wrestled with faith before; but have been approached by Christians with arrogance and condescension. We think we have all the answers and know exactly what's God's thoughts are based on our interpretation of those books passed down to us during the age of Emperor Constantine. We don't approach God, much less other human beings, with any amount of humilty. Folks, I certainly don't know everything about God. I can't tell someone who doesn't believe that there exists a math formula that will make them believe. And, this may sound surprising, but I don't want to FORCE anyone to believe anything about my God.
I also have to express some consternation about calling Hell a monument of God's love. I'm sorry, but the God I worship isn't that contrapuntal. In all Christian love, that statement gives me the willies ;-)
I believe we're in this life, this world, to learn and to love. Too often, we Christians are guilty of fostering ignorance because we're afraid our faith won't stand up to the test of science and history. I believe it does. Despite the fact that I am not Fundamentalist as many of you are, I do believe that the love of Christ has helped me love other people all the more. If I don't share the love of God when I call myself Christian, I need to be silent.
<<To it I respond, why does God allow evil?>>
To you I respond: how do you know evil? You see, this is exactly what pulled C.S. Lewis from his denial of God. How can I call something unjust unless I know what 'just' is? Or, in other words, you can't call a line crooked unless you know what a straight line looks like. Without an unchanging moral standard, you can't call anything evil - this is atheism's problem: no absolute standard with which to measure.
God didn't create evil - evil is a privation in something that is good. Darkness: the absence of light. Sickness: the absence of health. And the cause of all evil? Misused freedom. All moral evil can be traced back to that. And what is the privation causing moral evil? Galatians 5 gives it to us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Put these back into the heart of man, and you have no evil.
Finally, although you use Epicurus, I'll use Hume: If God were all good, He would defeat evil; if He were all powerful, He would defeat evil; but evil is not defeated; therefore God doesn't exist.
Beating Hume's or Epicurus' argument is easy. Append 'yet' to the third premise.
Exercising evil in this world means eliminating human freedom, the one thing we value above all else. Much like cutting off a leg because your foot hurts. God grants us free will in this life to choose right/wrong, love/hate. You cannot have real love without granting the ability to do the opposite or it isn't a true choice. And we use that freedom in this life to choose or reject God.
I choose God.
If we as Christians are to successfully present our case in the public arena, we must first admit our own diversity. We range from Liberal to Conservative, span all ethnicities, and interpret the Bible in a multitude of ways. Some of us are Theistic Evolutionists, like Joan Roughgarden of Stanford University who is a world-renown Evolutionary Biologist and a person of strong, Christian faith. If you interpret every word of the Bible literally, I believe you're going to run into a lot of scientific roadblocks. Though I believe strongly in the divinity of Jesus Christ, I also accept the fact that the universe is billions of years old and that evolution is itself a manifestation of God's glory. I believe that humanity is but one of many sentient races that God has created throughout the universe. The time scales of evolution and the magnanimity of the cosmos do not derail my faith. I was raised in the Fundamentalist tradition in a Christian school before graduating from a public university with a degree in Mathematics and Physics. I am also an author of Civil Rights literature. However, as I read history, I see that the face of Christianity is not always the face of Christ. Many fools have committed atrocities in the name of our faith. But there is another river that flows through history that is far more compelling; and that river flows through the stories of great human beings like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Quakers of the 19th Century willing to risk fortune, life and limb to liberate slaves. You’re not going to reach people by showing God to them in a test tube, or in elaborate mathematical formulations. The language of science does not answer WHY. Rather, it follows a sequence of repeatable events that lead to expected conclusions. An unbeliever will more likely be reached by the love of God expressed through human beings than by a science text. We seem to have forgotten that essential truth when we blast gays with greater venom than we show toward terrorists. God is the God of all people, not just those who look, behave, dress, act and talk just like us. We need to show how our faith has pioneered the great liberation movements of history, either directly or indirectly. To be honest, the face that we present to the world is most often pious, intractable and exclusive. You don’t reach unbelievers that way.
BobC, you have every right to believe or not believe anything you choose. However, I hope that you will rise above your own bigotries about Christians. Universal statements made in the name of religious bigotry or atheistic bigotry serve no purpose in producing a platform for understanding.
Read this quick before the thought police erase it.
"Hell is God's monument to His love for mankind."
That's a good one oldstudent. It loves mankind so much it tortures anyone who doesn't believe in it. That's a very sick in the head man-made god you believe in. What a great advertisement for christianity: "Join us or else our invisible friend will torture you. Also, our invisible friend loves you so much it will spare you from torture as long as you believe in every idiotic thing we believe in." That's a good way to attract gullible suckers who could believe your incredible nonsense. There's nothing like threatening torture to convince a feeble person to believe any idiocy.
Hell is God's monument to His love for mankind.
1. If you don't want to be near God, he gives you that choice,
2. Of course seeing that God is good and being away from Him means being away from all that is good, those who choose it are choosing to be away from the One who is good and all that is good from Him,
3. Hell is punishment but notice the word most commonly used in connection to mankind in hell; torment which is from within and not from without (torture).
4. If one chooses to reject God and being with Him then one chooses to be away from all that is good thus by definition that state is hell.
Grace and Peace,
Jim
Read this quick before the thought police erase it.
"I have read up on it's many flaws"
Tell us about those flaws you imagine, jc4me. While you are at it, how about some evidence for the magical creation? Your lies about science are not evidence for magic. So let's see some real evidence for god-did-it. Of course you don't have any evidence except your wishful thinking. So what you do is join the other creationists in their constant lying about evolution.
Scientists don't have to disprove your supernatural magic. They only have to provide evidence for natural explanations and they have supplied tons of it for evolution. The flat-earthers are constantly lying about this evidence, but their dishonesty is not going to make it go away. All competent biologists call evolution a proven fact because the evidence for it really is massive and powerful and rapidly growing, despite what the extremely dishonest creationists say.
Isn't it interesting that the most dishonest people on earth are the christians who claim they get their moral values from god. These same christian liars censor anyone who tells the truth about them. Christians are not only liars, they are absolutely terrified of honest people. So terrified they just erase what honest people say. Censorship is immoral and christians are the most immoral people on earth.
"Militant Atheism Gives Rise to Christian Apologetics"
Militant Atheism Gives Rise to the thought police censoring any atheist who tells the truth about christians.
All that work to write those comments and I get censored for telling the truth.
fallenman:
I do not need to get a wellrounded answer on evolution. I have read up on it's many flaws, and am completely convinced that it is a manmade theory to explain his existence without a Creator. Because there isn't sufficient proof for it, but most scientists are staunch evolutionists, then they push the lie even when there is no evidence for it. I know what they have doen with bones. I know what they have done to try and figure out the missing link. everytime they have tried to discover it, or put some info out there to support it, they haven't been able to, because you can't prove what is just not there. Yet, if you take the biblical Flood for example, there is sufficient archaelogical, geographical, and historical eveidence to support it. Everytime people have tried to disprove the Bible, archaeology has diproven the naysayers. Where are the naysayers who made unfounded accusations about Bible history? I never hear them stand up before the BBC and admit to their error. Why, because they need governement funding. If they admit they are wrong, then the tax money paid for by us for their falty research is withdrawn and applied to something that is trully worthwhile.
Bob C:
".....Babble about your boring bible and lie about science all you want. People like you will never be allowed to stick your massive ignorance into our schools. "
No Bob, it is you who bable in ignorance, because you harden your heart to the Truth of the Gospel of Christ, and to the God who created you. If you haven't studied your history of the US in context lately, "Us people"(Born again Christians) have been around in the governement of the US, and the public schools since the forefathers of this country expressed their views about God. The first book introduced into public schools to teach children how to read was the Holy Bible. Read history my friend. It was not until a very angry, bitter, and relentlessenemy of the Gospel atheist named Madeline O'hare (who's son is now a born again ChristianI may add) that prayer and Scripture reading was taken out of the public schools. Again, read your history the one conveniently ommited from your public school books that leaves out the revisionism that secular humanists and others as yourself try to feed into the minds of our young people that eventually, if not put to a stop continue to cause the demise of their prescious minds, and lead them towards a life of selfishness, anger, and no true purpose in life.
LOL-Militant Atheism? The spin continues Compared to many Christians the most bellicose atheist is a notch below docile
If you agree that he is all knowing, then he would know before hand what I would do if we disagree there then I retract my arguement.
LOL! It is what He knows! Sure He is all knowing and knows the course of our lives but, he loves so much he gives us opportunities to correct ourselves. He gives us choices. In life if you take the wrong road, there isn't really second chances or re-do's, but with God there is. If you take the wrong turn and head down the wrong road, He gives you re-routes all the time. He kinda reminds me of a Life GPS. Always giving you reroutes to get back on the right road when you get lost. He does that constantly, consistently, and to the very end. It is your choice to listen to Him or ignore. Doesn't matter what He knows but what you choose. He gives you that. Remember, we left freely and we return the same.
"He doesn't want to punish anyone."
Watch, do you believe in hell? Most christians do believe in it. It's the most disgusting belief of christianity. Only somebody who is extremely sick in the head could believe it.
I often hear christians threatening people with torture. The word "hell" is usually avoided but it goes something like this: "Agree with everything I say or else my invisible friend will torture you for trillions of years." Then these disgusting subhumans who call themselves christians say "my invisible friend loves you". Christians are both insane and repulsive. They really need to be locked up for constantly threatening people with torture. They deny they threaten people which is more evidence christians are compulsive liars.
Also could God create something he cant control?
If you agree that he is all knowing, then he would know before hand what I would do if we disagree there then I retract my arguement.
"If the arguement is well without evil we would not know the word good, well why does there have to be so much evil? Why not just allow a small amount a very small amount to account for evil and then we can determine that that small evil is evil and everything else is good? Why allow so much suffering? ? If he gives me a test and already knows I will fail it, why give me the test? "
Why is there so much evil? God didn't create the world in the state it is in now; we got here as a result of the selfishness of man.
"And if God knows all that we are going to do before we do it why give us a test that he already knows the outcome of'
I don't look at this as a test. it isn't. We left God's grace by our own choice(Gen. 3) and we return to Him by our own choice. Freely we left and freely we return. He leaves the choice to you.
"It would seem to me that if he was going to punish me for failing the test, why not create me in such a way that I would pass the test, that way I would not have to be punished.. that would show that he is all loving and all good "
He did create you in a way to come back to him. He loves you and wants you with Him. He doesn't want to punish anyone. He has given you all the tools and ability to make this happen. I hope and pray you answer his call.
"Evolution is not fact, only theory."
"Let's look at the oldest book of the Bible, the book of Job. Written shortly after the flood. It says:"
"There is proof that you seek, you need only to look."
JC, you are part of the problem. It's people like you that scientists laugh at. You don't even know what a scientific theory is. You imply your boring bible is a science textbook when it's really just the babbling of ancient know-nothing people. It's so obvious you know nothing about science, but if people like you had your way, it would be you, not scientists, who decide what should be taught in a science class. That would be like letting a person who couldn't add two numbers together deciding what could be taught in an algebra class.
Babble about your boring bible and lie about science all you want. People like you will never be allowed to stick your massive ignorance into our schools.
It would seem to me that if he was going to punish me for failing the test, why not create me in such a way that I would pass the test, that way I would not have to be punished.. that would show that he is all loving and all good
If the arguement is well without evil we would not know the word good, well why does there have to be so much evil? Why not just allow a small amount a very small amount to account for evil and then we can determine that that small evil is evil and everything else is good? Why allow so much suffering? And if God knows all that we are going to do before we do it why give us a test that he already knows the outcome of? If he gives me a test and already knows I will fail it, why give me the test?
Fallenman,
"So in reality, morality is independent of Gods will."
In the beginning, a holy and immutable (unchanging) God created human beings with a sense of right and wrong built into their very being. This sense of right and wrong is known as God’s moral law. God, the moral lawgiver, also revealed His moral standards more perfectly and directly following creation, by way of the Ten Commandments revealed to the children of Israel and subsequently in the New Testament through Jesus Christ.
Although man’s moral intuition has been severely damaged through the effects of sin (from Genesis 3), each human being can see right and wrong; we are all without excuse before God and man for our evil actions.
Evil and good do objectively exist because they emanate from the fact that there is an unchanging, omniscient (all-knowing), and holy God. These are not subjective opinions invented and written down by man. Rather, ‘good’ expresses the innate characteristics of God Himself that He has built into every human being, and every human being is responsible to live up to those standards. And the absence of good defines evil. Thus morality does come from God and is defined by His word; The Bible.
A quote "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" --Epicurus
As I suspected this answer would develop, I considered it as well. To it I respond, why does God allow evil?
And Ill agree, to claim to be a religion is self-defeating, so I dont suppose any religion would claim that they are a religion, if the take the time to consider the implications.
<<Be warned, JC was right to have backed out of answering this question... Many Theologians themselves have realized the fatal flaw of this train of thought...>>
OK, trap or no trap, I think you've asked a good question so here's my response:
What you've described is called volunterism - something is right because God willed it, a thought that I believe is partially traced back to a philosopher named Ockham.
An act isn't good because God wills it because that would make God arbitrary and not essentially good. In addition, such a thing also exalts the will of a being (God in this case) above its nature. Finally, it provides zero security that God will remain constant in ethical concerns, since He could change His mind. For example, tomorrow He could will that lying is 'good'.
In order for something to be ultimately good or right, it must come from an ultimately good and right Power. In other words, be permanently embedded in the Power's nature. And this is what we find with God. God wills something because it is in accordance with His own nature. Two of His attributes are omnibenevolence (all-good) and immutability (unchanging), therefore His perfect nature is forever good and unchanging and anything He wills comes from that nature.
To JC
Well I most certainly suspected this response ^^. My simple response to your assertation will be, how can Christianity be right and all other religions be wrong? And if you say well Christianity is based on historical fact, how do you know other religions arent either? Have you studied theirs?
To The Watch
The flaw is this, if what God commands is morally right then morality is meaningless, because we believe what God did was praiseworthy, but by the logic as noted above, if God had done everything to the contrary, if he had instead allowed Abraham to kill son then stopped him if he had done all these things differently it would of been just as praiseworthy as that he didnt, for anything God does is morally right. If God commanded you to put on a sock it would be advised you put on a sock, but we can all say that putting on a sock is not morally right or wrong, it is just being obedient to what God says. Therefore the question arises as Socrates said many many ages ago 'Is conduct right because the gods command it, or do the gods command it becuase it is right?' Does God stop Abraham from killing his son because it is the right thing to do? Or is God simply commanding Abraham to do something? So in reality, morality is independent of Gods will.
Be warned, JC was right to have backed out of answering this question... Many Theologians themselves have realized the fatal flaw of this train of thought...
Sure there is a flaw. There always are in these types of debates, but do continue.
To Fallenman:
Beloved, your sincerity is noted. However, we must be careful in how we answer questions, as sometimes our intended audience is not who we think it is.
To answer your question "Can we agree that Christianity is a religion that is based on faith".
Answer: No. (Not the answer you thought you would hear was it?) Let me explain.
First of all, Christianity is not a religion, it is a way of life. Only man's evils ways have turned this into a religion, and it has morphed into what we have today. Jesus Himself spoke of religion many times, everytime he spoke of the Pharisees actually.
God never called us to be religious, only to follow Him. Everytime he came upon a disciple what were his first words? "Follow me". That's exactly what He wants us to do.
For to be a Christian is to be Christ-Like. And Jesus said He was only doing what he saw The Father was do. And since we are suppose to be Christ-Like, we should also be doing what we see The Father do. And, yes, this requires faith. But it also requires sight, sound and heart as well. We must be able to see what The Father is doing, and He is willing to show us, if we ask.
Well, this would be the second time I am accused of a trap =[. I am not doing anything different in this part of the discussion that I did in the beginning.. There are questions that are asked and there answeres that are to be sought. I will not press this matter further either, for I have no intention of making a man do something he has no desire to do. But since you refuse to answer this question as well, can we agree that Christianity is a religion that is based on faith?
To Fallenman:
This argument is also a trap, but I will answer.
They find seashells in the mountains, "we must have come from water".
Or - They find seashells in the mountains, which proves the Great Flood occurred.
Two choices. One decision. I choose life. I choose God. I choose to follow His love, and believe what He says. The dark one asked Eve "Did God really say...". Well, in all actuality, He did. I will attempt to not make the same mistake.
Ah sir, but you are merely giving me the arguements against evolution, and it would seem as concieved by yourself? Or maybe modified by your own perception of the case. What I am asking you to do is to do some homework, and find out what scientists say about what you believe the problem to be. What solutions have they found?
To Fallenman:
Sure. One, can you recall anything that looked like one thing in a history book (actual photograph), that does not look like itself anymore? Two, scientists are working with an incomplete picture. They don't know how the Earth was formed, they can only speculate. Without knowing where something came from, any theory formed on what is on the surface, is only an incomplete picture, and purely guess work. If they could tell us definitively the origins of this planet, their case would be more plausible. But they can't. What they deem is fact, may or may not be fact, it is still an incomplete picture.
For to do so would to give both sides of the argument, you see the thing in question is evolution, so you cannot say that evolution is the thing that proves itself, the debate is between Christians and the people who believe in Evolution. Christians make their claims on the validity of Evolution, but what do believers say in return? I suppose I am asking you to rebuttle yourself for me, but if you know the arguements against your position, if you look it up for yourself, and if you still believe after finding the information going against your criticisms of evolution, then you have every right to do so.
Dear sir, I have entertained the thought that evolution may be faulty, but I have finally decided that I will make my position that Evolution is in fact not faulty, could you please provide me not with the evidence against evolution but the criticisms of these claims that evolution is faulty?
To BobC:
Beloved of God, who made you so angry? Evolution is not fact, only theory. The very school system you are defending has always taught this. Theory.
People always are quick to claim that the Bible and archeological history do not match. This is quite untrue. For people who claim this, have never truly examined what the scripture says. Take dinosaurs for example. We know they existed for there is archeological evidence. But the Bible doesn't say anything about them. Or does it?
Let's look at the oldest book of the Bible, the book of Job. Written shortly after the flood. It says:
Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like an ox. Behold now, his strength in his loins And his power in the muscles of his belly. He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are tubes of bronze; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the first of the ways of God; Let his maker bring near his sword. Surely the mountains bring him food, And all the beasts of the field play there. Under the lotus plants he lies down, In the covert of the reeds and the marsh. The lotus plants cover him with shade; The willows of the brook surround him. If a river rages, he is not alarmed; He is confident, though the Jordan rushes to his mouth. Can anyone capture him when he is on watch, With barbs can anyone pierce his nose?
There is proof that you seek, you need only to look.
Be warned, JC was right to have backed out of answering this question... Many Theologians themselves have realized the fatal flaw of this train of thought...
So you would say Gods commands are moral? Hypothetically speaking if God told you to give your money to a homeless man, it would be considered moral because you are obeying the commands of God?
"Well I'll ask a different question, is morality universal or is it only derived from the Bible? "
I quote wiki:
"Moral universalism is the meta-ethical position that some system of ethics, or a universal ethic, applies universally, that is to all people regardless of culture, race, sex, religion, nationality, sexuality, or other distinguishing feature. The source or justification of this system may be thought to be, for instance, human nature, shared vulnerability to suffering, the demands of universal reason, what is common among existing moral codes, or the commands of a God. It is the opposing position to various forms of moral relativism."
That being the case...yes. To both.
Ok I read Luke 20 and now I realize what you mean. Fair enough.
"When one looks around at this world, there definitely is intelligent design."
Definitely? When one looks at the sun setting in the west and rising in the east, would you say "definitely" the sun orbits the earth? Maybe you would say that because christians are likely to believe anything.
Please keep your intelligent design magic in your churches where it belongs. There is no debate among scientists about evolution being a proven fact. Your denial of evolution just proves you are willfully ignorant and anti-science. Your magic beliefs must be kept out of public schools for the simple reason you're an ignorant liar. There must be no law forcing teachers to lie to their students. That's what your magical intelligent design is, lying. Teaching it would be no different from telling students the earth is flat.
I repeat again, christians, keep your constant lying about science out of our schools. Your dishonesty belongs only in the monuments to stupidity you call churches.
But I suppose it answers the perception you have of me, I have no desire to persecute you or harm you, I am merely discussing. If you do not want to go there I will not force it.
I read luke chapter 21, but I am not clear how this pertains to the batpism of john.
To Fallenman:
The question is still the same. It's a trap, and I refuse to go there, as you have chosen not to answer my question either.
As this pertains to every man woman and child, I think it only fair that we discuss the case of morality... I have as much a stake in it as you do, if I am not correct?
To Fallenman:
I know. Read Luke, chapter 21 and you will understand.
Well I'll ask a different question, is morality universal or is it only derived from the Bible?
Im sorry, I dont understand?
To Fallenman:
Therefore, I will refuse to answer your question as well.
Its best to understand both sides of the arguement, Christians will be given evolution then they will find information saying how evolution is wrong, but they never give rebuttles to these reasons that evolution is wrong. They never check to see what other people say about these accusations of the faultyness of evolution.
jc4me, I understand what you are saying and I ask that maybe you should get a more rounded answer to the validity of evolution? There are definately people out there who will tell you evolution is faulty, but there are just as many if not more, that will tell you it is not faulty.
I wouldnt know good sir, i am ignorant of the story.
To Fallenman:
Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?
When one looks around at this world, there definitely is intelligent design. Evolutionist have to twist what they find in order to get more federal funding for more research, because most of what they find are hoxes. They find1 jaw bone and then draw something with computer animation to make the whole jaw bone seem like a face. Furhtermore, if their so confident about their humanistic science, then why do they rant and rave like dogs that have rabies when factual points of proof are shown to them. If we truly believ in freedom of speech, then Creationism should be taught in Public Schools. Let the children excercise their free will in choosing what they want to hear. Not have humanistic teachers brain wash them to believ they came from apes. They haven't even found the "missing link" yet.
Evolution even contradicts biology. They have run carbon dating on rocks that are just a few years old, and the carbon dating method has come back with those rocks being millions of years old. Evolution is just a theory. Creationism can be proven. It is more intelligible than just assuming something because you deny the very God that created you.
To BobC
Beloved, why do you think that science and Christianity do not go together?
As far as the U.S. Government goes, you are way too late for that.
The Declaration of Independence states, "Men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." It also states that these rights are "self evident" and that they constitute the "Laws of Nature." These principles are taken directly from the Bible.
The Law of Nature can be viewed in Romans 2:14-16. That our Creator is the Author of life is seen in Genesis 2:7. That God, not government, grants liberty is seen in Galatians 5:1. The "pursuit of happiness" is found in Ecclesiastes 3:13.
my oh my this conversation certainly has carried itself to extreme locations, well then allow me to re-enter the fray with a few questions of my own, they pertain not to any previous posts, they are entirely new questions. Do you believe that anything God commands is right and anything God forbids is wrong?
JC,
I know where you are coming from... but Jesus told us not to throw our pearls before swine... the things of God are foreign to those whose hearts have been hardened. You can continue your dialog with him, we however, refuse to do so.
Carry on my brother/sister... The Lord gave Pharaoh plenty of chances... however, the Pharaoh at least listened.
JC, I was talking about the christian war on science which is entirely the fault of christians. I and others would like to ignore the massive stupidity of christianity but we can't ignore it because christian thugs are constantly harassing science teachers.
I repeat, leave science alone christians. Leave public schools alone. Leave our government alone. Until you keep your idiocy and your constant lying about science in your churches where it belongs, expect nothing but the constant ridicule you deserve.
I'll also go along with that Zeno.
To Zenodaddy and Servent: If he's good enough for Jesus, he's good enough for me.
To BobC:
Dear one, I will not apologize for speaking words of love. Whether you have respect for me I really don't care, I still love you. There's nothing you can say, do, or think that will ever change that.
You speak of an all out war. Dear one, this is nothing new. This war has been going on long before you and I were ever here. You sound as if you have already chosen sides, without knowing which side you truly have sided with, for if you could see the truth, you would not choose this side. There can only be one truth. It is impossible for there to be anymore than one.
Dear one, it doesn't have to be this way. The allies you have chosen to side with will only lead to destruction and death.
It has always been, and always will be, only your decision. We can't make it for you, and God will not. His is a perfect love. He is calling you. Please, listen. Don't just hear it, but listen. He loves you very much, more than I, or anybody else, could. He wants only for you to call upon Him. That's why we hear versus that say He stands at the door and knocks. He will not turn you away, no matter what you have done. All you have to do is ask. Really.
I second zeno's recomendation.
Since Bob is now known as a troll, I suggest everyone just ignore his sad sadistic bigoted comments.
JC, cut out the "Beloved" garbage. To me you just another know-nothing deluded god nut, and I have no respect for you at all.
Look it christians, just keep your insanity out of our schools, and stop harassing science teachers. I expect you to brainwash your own children, there's nothing that can be done about that. But if you continue to attack science education, you can expect total war, and not just from me. There's millions of us, and we are not going to tolerate out of control christian thugs who are constantly lying about science.
BobC,
You are now what is considered on most message boards... a troll. You do not answer questions, you slander any and all Christians, personally attack individuals as being ignorant based on their idea's about God and you are incredibly bitter. You will now be ignored as a troll.
You never once answered my questions. I feel sorry for you.
do you really have that much hate and disdain for someone you don't know just b/c they believe in Jesus Christ? how can you, again I still think it is a way of covering up years of hurt. Bobc, we still love you man!!
Bob, your rhetoric is the same pursecution that Christians have endured for as long as there have been Christians. Our beliefs have been mocked and suppressed by tyrranical goverments and despots all over the world. Christians over the years have been stoned, thrown to lions, shot, stabbed, tortured, beaten, spit on, laughed at, and humilliated all because our religious beliefs. You know, our Lord got the same treatment and He said we would too. I want you to know that even with all the harshness and hateful words, I still believe God loves you. More than you can imagine. He calls to you and keeps calling to you. Give him a chance.
Sorry. Last posted directed to BobC.
If you didn't want proof, you would not be here. If you are not looking for proof, then you are just an antagonist, and are a tool of the dark one. It doesn't have to be this way. God is more than willing to open your eyes as to what is going on. All one has to do ask. Have you? Have you asked God to make himself real to you?
If not, then how do you know it doesn't work. You suppose that we are crazy, but have you ever tried it? I'm sure people thought that Noah was crazy for building the ark as well, but in the end, who was crying?
Beloved, may I ask you another question? Have you ever given Jesus a chance in your life. I mean a real-live, honest chance?
Compare these 2 statements.
"just b/c someone from your past near and dear to you claiming to be christian hurt you"
"just b/c someone from your past near and dear to you claiming to be atheist hurt you"
Both statements are idiotic. What is wrong with you? Do you know my life history? You really got a lot of nerve. Who do you think you are? Do you really think making things up and lying is a good idea? Do you really think being a liar is going to improve my low opinion of you?
BobC, you said that kids who have been taught about Noah and Moses are stupid and brainwashed and can't learn. Couple of things
1)If I remember correctly you were raised in a christian home, and by your standards you know truth now, you are smart, oh so smart. So either your claim that christian children can't learn is a lie or you aren't as smart as you say you are.
2)That's a big claim to backup on your part. Some of the smartest people that have lived (scientist's also) have been christians.
Please think through your statements before you post.
servent, see my previous comments about science education. That's what motivates me to tell the truth about your insanity. Christians could be ignored but they are constantly attacking science. They started this war against science, and they are going lose, and lose badly. I'm not the only person who laughs at your idiocy. There's millions of us, and our numbers are growing rapidly. Christians are being watched and they won't be allowed to get away with anything. This is a war you christians started with your constant lying about science, and it's a war the millions of atheists will finish. Science has always defeated the stupidity of christians and it will always win in the future.
Bobc, just b/c someone from your past near and dear to you claiming to be christian hurt you, does not mean God doesn't exist or that all christians will hurt you. Give God a chance, afterall he keeps giving you chances.God Love You!!!!! More than you'll ever know
apoligizing - an inkling of curdiousness on your part BobC. I'm proud of you, I too love you. Under all that hate filled speach is really a hurt,broken,scared, neglected, person seeking love and truth. We do love you BobC and wish you the best but most of all salvation.
"However, if God had been kept in the Public School System, then maybe Columbine, and others, would not have happened."
Is this your evidence for god? Some insane immature teenagers shoot other students, then shoot themselves, therefore there's a god? If that's the best you can do, then you really are crazy.
Is there anything we can know about God without picking up a Bible? Yes, through General Revelation and logic, we can conclude some things.He must be eternal and self-existent, since the universe is not.He must be powerful and intelligent enough to have created the universe and to sustain it.I can arrive at these traits without picking up a Bible, but they are characteristics of the God of the Bible.They are not characteristics of the gods of all religions, however.Virtually all of the World's religions are rooted in Pantheism or gods that are not eternal and self-existent.So, I think there is a sense in which the God of the Bible can be demonstrated to be true over and above other competing belief systems.
Sorry about the double post. Also, I meant "your" not "you".
JC, save your god nonsense for some gullible 5 year old. I just laugh at the stupidity of your "God is calling you". You insanity is disgusting.
JC, save your god nonsense for some gullible 5 year old. I just laugh at the stupidity of your "God is calling you". You insanity is disgusting.
To BobC
Dear one, how sadly the dark one has deceived you. Now he has convinced you to deny your very own existence, even though you do exist.
Wake up, dear one, wake up. God is calling you, otherwise you would not be here. You may think that you came here to ridicule, or to prove your athiestic views, but in reality, you are here, and you are being fed.
I have proof in my life that God exists, whether you believe it or not, He has made Himself real to me, and I speak with Him everyday. And, believe it or not, He actually answers me too.
How do I know. Dear one, if I didn't have God's love in me, I would have abandoned this conversation long ago, and wrote you off. What would I care. But I do. I don't even know you, but I care about you. Honestly. I don't care what you have done, I have my own stack of wrong-doings myself. But I do care, and I do love you. That's how I can tell God has intervened in my life. I am not capable of being this gentle.
Dear one, all one has to do ask. If you seek, you will find. If you ask, you will receive. Jesus said he would not throw away a broken reed. And, we all have been broken in our lives at one time or another.
One more thing, If I may. God was taken out of the Public School System long ago. This is an invalid argument for you. However, if God had been kept in the Public School System, then maybe Columbine, and others, would not have happened. Those kids had no qualms about killing others. They even asked others before they were shot, if they believed in God. The ones who answered "yes" were killed.
Here's one of many reasons christians deserve constant ridicule. In America our science education is terrible. The millions of evolution-deniers in this country is proof Americans know next to nothing about science. You know why Americans are so ignorant of science? There's at least 2 reasons and it's entirely the fault of christians.
The first reason is children are brainwashed to believe in Noah and Adam and Jesus long before they learn about science. When they finally are in their first science class, they already believe everything is magic, so what chance do they have of understanding anything?
The 2nd reason our science education is so terrible, is because many science teachers are so sick of the harassment they get from christian thugs, they completely skip teaching evolution. The result is more ignorant people, and more christian thugs who threaten science teachers.
There is a war against science in this country. It's christians against science. The christians have been lying about evolution for years and they're not going to get away with. There is now another war going on, the war against the stupidity of christianity, and this war will never end until the christians leave science alone.
So you christians who don't want to be laughed at the rest of your pathetic lives, should stop lying about science, and stop trying to stick the stupidity of your god-made-everything into our public schools.
"I pray that you have a change in heart or at least in manners."
Praying is talking to yourself, another sign of mental illness.
"or at least in manners"
Oh right, after the muslims murdered thousands of us on 9/11/2001, and after years of know-nothing christians attacking science education and lying constantly about science, and after years of christians trying to stick their insanity in our public schools, atheists should have manners?
The heck with that. Christians should get all the respect they deserve, and they deserve NO respect at all. What they do deserve is constant ridicule and that's what they can expect forever. If Christians kept their insanity in their churches and out of our public schools, and out of our science classes, they could be ignored. But they got to stick their magic man everywhere so they deserve nothing but contempt.
"By your argument anyone's beliefs should be validated (in an existence-sense) purely by the life-changing results."
It is and it isn't. I can show my faith through my actions, but I cannot take faith out and show you it really exist. It's like love. Can you truthful take love out and scientifically measure it? No you cannot.
I do attribut my life's changes to my committment to God. That may not be proof to you but it is a piece of evidence for me.
"And again, quoting a book, the bible, is not evidence of anything. You might as well quote a cookbook or the latest bestseller. You have no evidence that the words therein contain any truth whatsoever. "
Ah but my beliefs tell me it is truth and I will quote from it. One thing athiest want us to do is leave the Bible out of it. With that same philosophy, we take the resurrection, the cross and all of it out. It all works hand in hand. So to tell me that quotes from scripture is meaningless is meaningless to me because I believe they are the inspired Word of God. You are still wanting that piece of evidence that will totally convince you and I'm sorry. I cannot provide that for you because you have to have faith to accept these things. You might say that is disillusioned , but I say it is freedom by choice. I have had enough evidence to convince me and place me where I am and i believe in life.
BobC, I still forgive you for your harsh words. I am sorry that you feel the way you feel. I pray that you have a change in heart or at least in manners.
<<Christians really are crazy. If there weren't so many of them, they would be locked up so they couldn't harm anyone.>>
Although we tend to dismiss rantings and hatred like this, we should take it seriously. No paranoia or martyrdom complex mind you, just reality. When folks like this or Bill Maher label people of faith 'crazy' and call for their arrest/exclusion from society because we don't believe/think as they do, real persecution isn't far behind. Of course, the spirit of Nero is alive and well today, so we shouldn't be surprised - indeed it's yet another proof that the Bible is true because Christ said: "If they hate me, they'll hate you." Welcome to New Testament Christianity!
"God has shown Himself to us because we have honestly and earnestly sought him."
Really? What did it look like? You are so full of it. No god showed itself to you. Christians think their delusions are real, then they deny they're insane. And they wonder why everyone laughs at them.
And with that Bobc we as Christian rest our case. And you sir have been found lacking. God still does still love tho.
May God Bless you and yours
In Christ
Tom
To BobC
Beloved, I don't think us Christians are crazy, just convinced. God has shown Himself to us because we have honestly and earnestly sought him. He will do the same for you, but it has to start with you. God does not do parlor tricks, and unfortunately some people will only respond to this. Remember the Pharisees, always looking for a sign.
Why is it so hard for you to believe in being born into another existence? It's already happened to you once. We're you born into this existence? If that is possible, which it is as you are alive, then why would you think it could not happen again?
Dear one, I'm just curious.
If a person made an object, and the object began to fall apart, could he not then restore it knowing how it was made to begin with?
"You say a man cannot be resurrected from the decaying flesh and such, but I tell you the Almighty God can and did."
This is the problem. Once a person believes there's an invisible magician in the sky, then any idiocy becomes possible and reality becomes meaningless. The god nuts always have the same answer to their insane beliefs - god can do anything. God is just another word for stupidity. Christians really are crazy. If there weren't so many of them, they would be locked up so they couldn't harm anyone.
‘It's good to have an open mind, but if it's open too much your brain falls out.’
Moreover, lands in the atheistic desert and covered over time with nothing but sand.
‘Nobody here has one shred of real evidence for any religious belief they have.’
Yet, the atheists have given ample evidence for their extreme hatred of something they claim does not exist and have given us enough evidence of their bigotry.
‘The Christians claim faith is a virtue, but faith is not a virtue at all. Faith is a character flaw. Faith is for gullible people who are willing to believe any nonsense.’
Hate speech… congratulation.
‘Watch, you were never an atheist.’
Any proof of that?
‘No real atheist gives up his sanity to believe in an invisible man who lives in the clouds.’
I know of no Christian who has ever claimed that God lives in the clouds… most atheists I know have the same amount or more of mental issues. Your obvious contempt for anything other then self is a good example.
‘I have zero respect for Christians’
At least you rightfully capitalize the word ‘Christian’ so therefore you do have some respect.
‘but I have even less respect for dishonest Christians who claim they used to be atheists.’
How can you say you have zero respect for Christians and yet have even less respect for dishonest Christians? That my friend is impossibility. You cannot have negative respect for someone or a people. You can have no respect, but not negative respect.
‘Christians don't even know what a real atheist is’
Yes, Christians are unable to use Google or Dictionary.com. Touché… *sigh*
‘What evidence do you have for the resurrection of the jesus preacher man?’
The fact that over 2 Billion people Worship Him as their God and your statement regarding humanity as being ignorant is blissfully arrogant.
‘fantastic claim a corpse with a horrible smell, whose internal organs have been rotting for 3 days, whose body is infested with maggots and worms and hungry bacteria, whose flesh has been decomposing and looks terrible, suddenly and magically returns to life.’
Yet you believe that nothing formed into something and eventually involved into a human, which developed a brain with reasoning. You believe this but do not believe that a human can come back to life… asinine.
‘Millions do believe it, which only proves the human race is stupid.’
2.3-2.8 BILLION Believe this… and if we go by the numbers alone… the stupidity does not lay at the hands of Christians.
Watch, you didn't answer my question. What evidence do you have for the resurrection of the jesus preacher man? Let's have it. Until you provide evidence for it, and I mean real evidence, not some invented witnesses, then I have to conclude you are just another gullible know-nothing christian, willing to believe anything, no matter how idiotic.
You have a terrible disease and you should thank me for telling you that. You will never cure yourself until you admit you are sick.
Yes watch---no answers -He attacks, snarling and biting all that gets in his way. Everybody who gets in his way. God must be after him in a mighty way for him to be this full of hatred, the evil one doesn't want this one to get away. Pray for him, God we pray that Bobc will come to know your love as we who call your Son Lord do.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Watch -
Your belief in a god is not unfortunately evidence for the existence of that god any more than any other religion's follower's belief is evidence for his god. By your argument anyone's beliefs should be validated (in an existence-sense) purely by the life-changing results. This is not logical. The fact that 19 hijackers died for their god on 9/11 is not evidence that their faith was real, no matter how much they believed it. The same is true for you.
And again, quoting a book, the bible, is not evidence of anything. You might as well quote a cookbook or the latest bestseller. You have no evidence that the words therein contain any truth whatsoever.
BobC, so full of hate. I forgive you for calling me gullible, stupid, preacherman, dishonest. I don't expect you to know or believe me about any part of my life. I don't expect you to understand the change that God has made in my life. You call it gullible, I call it faith. You call it stupid, I call it life changing. You call me preacherman, I call it sharing my experience. You call me dishonest, I call it sharing apart of myself. You say I don't know what a real athiest is, I say I know that void all too well. You say I don't have evidence to the resurrection, but I say I have. You say a man cannot be resurrected from the decaying flesh and such, but I tell you the Almighty God can and did. You say millions of people are stupid but yet I say millions of people understand the Truth and made that personal commitment. I can argue with you all day but it comes down to one simple thing to me. God loves you. Even though you are enlightened and have all the answers, He stil loves you. He wants to have that relationship with you too.Take care, Good day and God bless.
torus,
Wow!! Now, not only are you trying to put God in a box, but a Pizza box!! LOL! You have seen and read here account after account of the way God has worked in each of our lives. You have read the arguments. You lable our faith as folly. Ravi Zacharias put it this way. "The truth is placed on a scaffold and the elite of the world mock it." God waits to bring that truth to light, by stepping out of the shadows. Then every knee will bow and every toungue shall confess. I know, that's eluding to scripture, but I as a christian, believe that to be the inspired Word of God. You don't believe that but as it is stated in Hebrews:
"“For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4.12-13).
The Bible will remain in tact far beyond the Dawkin's book or any athiest manifesto. It has stood assualt after assualt, but yet it remains. " 8 The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.” Isaiah 40:8
the watch
The Watch said: "...I wasn't a good athiest. I had an open mind."
It's good to have an open mind, but if it's open too much your brain falls out.
Nobody here has one shred of real evidence for any religious belief they have.
The Christians claim faith is a virtue, but faith is not a virtue at all. Faith is a character flaw. Faith is for gullible people who are willing to believe any nonsense.
Watch, you were never an atheist. No real atheist gives up his sanity to believe in an invisible man who lives in the clouds. I have zero respect for Christians, but I have even less respect for dishonest Christians who claim they used to be atheists. Christians don't even know what a real atheist is.
What evidence do you have for the resurrection of the jesus preacher man? Just some witnesses. It's likely those dead witnesses were invented, just like the resurrection was invented, but even if there were millions of witnesses, that would not be valid evidence for the fantastic claim a corpse with a horrible smell, whose internal organs have been rotting for 3 days, whose body is infested with maggots and worms and hungry bacteria, whose flesh has been decomposing and looks terrible, suddenly and magically returns to life. Only an extremely gullible person could believe any of it. Millions do believe it, which only proves the human race is stupid.
Your argument for the existence of god is invalid because it could apply to anything. If I replace "God" by "Invisible Pink Unicorn" your logic holds up. If I replace it by "Large Pizza Outside My Office" it still holds up. But if I open my office door there's no pizza. The analogy fails because the vacuum of space, unlike the existence of God, the IPU and the pizza, has been proven.
As regards your last paragraph, the logic is still nonexistent. If God's words are replaced by any other words from any other book your attempt at rationale is identical. The existence of something cannot be proven based upon the assumption of something.
If someone were to slide a note right now under my office door saying "Pizza Outside" it wouldn't suffice as self-contained evidence that there is in fact a pizza outside. I'd be foolish to believe it. Likewise, the existence of a book proclaiming to have the Truth in it is not proof that there is truth in it. It's a book. The words of God are not the words of God unless you prove they are. Until that point they're words and that's it.
Torus,
Please do not take my statement of throwing pearls to swine as an insult as it is merely a way of stating that the gems of God mean nothing to those that believe that the gems and God do not exist.
Another prime example of the existence of God is the very fact that you do not believe in Him at all. I can choose not to believe in the vacuum of space... but the moment I walk outside the confines of the space shuttle... I would be proven very wrong, very quickly indeed.
The question is... how soon do you want to prove that the vacuum of space does not exist? Eventually, you will have to step outside the shuttle... the question is... do you want to be secured and safe with a space suit, or take your chances and walk out in shorts and a t-shirt?
Also, to clarify why you cannot use anything that has ever been written to prove to us your intelligence is because you refuse to allow us to use God's Own Words to refute your belief that Christianity is invalid. Therefore, since men over time wrote the bible... you cannot use anything that men have written to validate how 'intelligent' you really are.
Tom -
Thanks for your kind words and wisdom (ditto zenodaddy and these3remain). How true that you can't argue someone into the love of God. But how great it is when someone finally grasps the message and accepts it! Christians need to be able to give a defense using not only God's special revelation (the Bible) but general revelation as well (logic, science, philosophy) as both are oftentimes necessary. The best concise book I've ever read that does this is Geisler's book "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist", and I'd recommend it to everyone on this thread.
I had a big spill written out for you Torus but I would rather not throw my pearls to the swine so to speak.
I will however ask you this… how many times during the day or night do you call out to God? When you smash your finger, what do you say? Do you curse the name of God? When you get something unexpected do you ever say ‘Thank God!’… or when you get hurt do you yell, ‘GOD!!’.
How about saying the name of Jesus Christ or asking God to condemn something when you shout out the much-loved offensive curse word of ‘GD’?
If you ever say those things then you have ample proof of the existence of God. It is highly difficult to believe that someone would have such contempt or hatred for something or someone who did not exist. If you have ever or do practice these things then you do in fact believe in God, you just refuse to admit to the fact.
I suggest you read ‘Mere Christianity’, ‘Case for Christ’, which was written by an atheist who turned to Christ during his rebuttal of Christianity. Since you most likely would say you have an open mind, which in reality is a closed mind, then perhaps you should read the book of James, First Corinthians and the Gospel of John. You see, James penned down one of the best books on the human tongue and the relation to what we believe. First Corinthians, which was written by Paul under the Divine Guidance of the Holy Spirit, penned the most beautiful and elegant statement on the idea of Love ever devised. When it comes to the question of ‘Who is Jesus’, there is no other book in history that can match the Gospel of John.
You taught that you are intelligent… we are waiting for evidence that you are in fact intelligent. However, you cannot base your intelligence on anything ever written. Enjoy.
Schumar and these3remain i extend my admiration to you as well. I am somehwat humbled at your abiltiy to speak the truth. Gods blessing
In Christ
Tom
Zenodaddy and Watch I am impressed I think God has blessed you mightly with your ability to defend the Christian faith. Torus complains about ad hominen attacks then proceeds with the same. Interesting arguement sir. You have given no arguement for there not being a God or proof that this belief or world view we have as Christian is false. we instead have tried to show you as well as others that we do. We have given your resources to check out,(you might not agree with them but go ahead check them out to see what Christian believe) We have given you personal testimony on how this God thru Jesus Christ has changed our lives to the betterment of ourselves as well as the ones we love. We as Christian become slowly, sometimes very slowly more like Christ everyday as we continue to grow in our Faith. This is not just a few we are talking about but millions of people. We have a world view that does not reguire us to check our brains at the door. We are encourge to learn to grow to do the best we can. We just tend to look at the world thru His eyes and perspective. Most of us have seen what the atheistic world view will eventaully do to the world and understand that man is flawed in there own reasoning abliity because we are by nature self centered and will seek our own personal wants and desires if we let our will have reign. Not all, I agree are like this just like not all Christian are honest or creditable, it happens. But if you look at Christianty as a whole the world has benifited from the precepts the Bible spells out, especially the Hew Testament. We are not perfect nor do we claim to be, but when we are walking the walk everbody believer and non- benifit. Under most if not all Atheistic goverment the average Joe or Josphine has suffered terribly. Do find it not at all curious on why the world is trying to stamp out this thing Judeo/Christian world view? yes others have been persected but again of you look at history not the extent the Jewish religion has been and for the last 2000 years the Christian religion. Food for thought. May God Bless you all
In Christ
Tom
I think the need for Christians to be taught apologetics is critical in these last days particularly in light of the fact that our educational system teaches their own religion of secular humanism and has done a great job indoctrinating our youth for many years. Most of the great scientists of western civilization were Christians, including Copernicus, Isaac Newton, and many others yet there isn't a school that exists in public education that would allow a fact like this to be disclosed. Science is constantly proving what the Bible teaches is true - archaeological finds and geological findings support much of what is written in the Bible. But let me say one big HOWEVER - no matter how many times an atheist or agnostic reads the Bible, they will not understand it because they cannot understand it. The Bible is clear that spiritual things are discerned i.e., knowable , only through the Spirit, that is , the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit to teach us, the Bible cannot be understood. Since the only way the Holy Spirit works outside of the believer is to convict a person of sin, God's righteousness and the judgment to come, it behooves every true Christian to know how to share the gospel and answer questions about Christianity articulately. I might also add that despite the best apologetics, unless the Holy Spirit is drawing the individual, no one has ever been "debated" or "argued" into the Kingdom of God; it still does not absolve the Christian for knowing why they believe.
<<You have no proof that it contains anything valid, it contains no checkable data an contradicts reality and common sense in countless ways. Using it as a reference is weak at best.>>
I'm afraid this is a completely invalid statement. The historicity of the Bible and the events it records stands very firm. As just one example, read Colin Hemmer's book on the historicity of Acts where he records hundreds of historical details that science and archeology have validated. Unlike other faiths, Christianity is based on historical people and details that can be verified. The atheists commenting in this dialog reject it clearly because they reject the supernatural, which is 'natural' for an atheist.
<<Atheists believe in many things. Most of them stem from evidence.>>
'Most'? You mean you exercise 'faith'? In what way? My next question is, since you (being an atheist) must adhere to an eternal universe and/or matter, what irrefutable evidence can you provide us for that? No offense intended, but please don't lay out theories of collapsing universes and imaginary time; give us the real goods. Further, a question to all the atheists on this thread: what evidence for the existence of God is necessary for you?
<<Why do you religious types have this bee in your bonnet thinking atheists believe life has no meaning?>>
Because it doesn't if you logically follow your thinking through to its conclusion. You can't give what you don't have. A meaningless, purposeless, random universe can't accidentally create beings obsessed with purpose and meaning. Atheists who dare to think truthfully on this matter arrive at this conclusion (Nietzsche, etc.), but I understand how this is hard for you to embrace - you want it both ways, but it just isn't there.
<<The problem is that you seem to find it impossible to step outside your situation for a moment to see how crazy it all looks from the outside.>>
And it's not crazy to believe that something comes from nothing? Can you explain how that happens? And before you lay on me the 'who created God' question, answer my question first.
Zenodaddy:
1. Read "The God Gene" or at least try to appreciate the hypothesis and evidence. Quoting your 90-95% figure is misleading. Most of those are not Christians. Some of them believe in many gods, some believe in none.
2. "Typical atheistic comment"? If that's not an ad hominem attack then I don't know what is.
3. You can't quote the bible for Jesus' divinity because the bible is a book which was written by a bunch of people and translated a dozen times at least. You have no proof that it contains anything valid, it contains no checkable data an contradicts reality and common sense in countless ways. Using it as a reference is weak at best.
4. Atheists believe in many things. Most of them stem from evidence. And even if we didn't, believing in nothing is still better than being brainwashed.
5. Why do you religious types have this bee in your bonnet thinking atheists believe life has no meaning? Plenty of meaning can be derived from our mere existence, no gods necessary, and the fact that we have feelings and thoughts. I live a decent and fulfilled life with lots of meaning and I don't require a god to give it to me.
6. The problem is that you seem to find it impossible to step outside your situation for a moment to see how crazy it all looks from the outside. As an academic exercise try imagining some alternate people with different belief frameworks from you. For example, imagine a guy who believes the world is on the back of a turtle. Imagine a guy who still believes in the tooth fairy. Think about how goofy these things seem. You are these guys.
‘You just need to understand man created God.’
Yes, the proverbial argument of the ignorant is the one with the self proclaimed notion of the absolute impossibility of God. 90-95% of the world disagrees with you. I guess we are all just delusional, or perhaps it is the other way around.
‘If you understand all gods are man-made, then all your other problems will go away.’
Therefore, atheists have it easier then those who believe in God because? What problems go away for those who believe against those who do not?
‘You have several dozen other problems. For example, you said "First, his son Jesus shed his Godhood and became human." You have no evidence for that or anything else you said.’
You state several dozen, yet only name one, which is not a argument at all, but a careless statement. Typical atheistic generic comment. You claim so much, yet offer no evidence on your own behalf. You state that there is no evidence for Jesus being divine… therefore you have never read the Old Testament or the New Testament and before you state that you have read the bible from cover to cover let me remind you that since studying Theology for the past 6 years, I have never read it cover to cover. What do you believe about Jesus?
‘If you want to be a normal person, you can't accept anything that has no evidence.’
What kind of evidence are you looking for? Are you waiting for Jesus to come knocking on your door and answer all of your questions about life? He is knocking and waiting for you to answer. Read, it may help you more then you know.
‘It's very obvious you have been brainwashed.’
Yes, coming from one who believes in nothing.
‘A belief in a supernatural magician is a terrible disease. It's usually not curable.’
See the thing is… since we will be found to be right regardless of your written non-arguments then the end is inevitable and the outcome guaranteed. If you some happenstance you are right then who cares? Life has no meaning what so ever so whatever you do, say, or believe in will never matter. Life does not matter. That my friend is a pathetic and pointless existence.
‘The victim must be able to admit he is sick before he has any chance of ridding himself of this disease.’
Yes, it is called sin. Self delusion is all about being happy with oneself… and you seem quite bitter for one who says that atheists have it easier… ironic.
", that Christianity is something that is based on faith, and many times Christians will reword their arguements and such so as to make it seem more complex or disguised, but it simplifies to faith"
Thats it!!!! We are back to square one. Faith. It's talked about over and over again in the Bible. It's a reoccurring theme! I was waiting for you to re-point that out. I stated before it would be nice to have some sort of tangible evidence I could show you and say; "Look! Here is the proof. Bam! Your converted." You know when Christ was on the cross people mocked him and told him if he was Lord to come down from the cross. Those people wanted that Bam! I know he could have done just that, buit that would have been forcing your belief. You see, we seperated ourselves from God by freewill and we come back to him by the same. It takes faith, my friend. No other way around it. It is so simple, but yet so hard for many.
Oh dear BobC, you are so very wrong in your assessments. It's Ok though, I use to profile athiest, myself. You see I was so very skeptical of the whole thing, but I wasn't a good athiest. I had an open mind. I wasn't as angry as you. If I'm stuck now in some...how did you put it, isane fantasy world, then so be it. I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ or how I live. If they autopsy me after I die, they will find worn knees from prayer. They will find spliters in my arms from where I've clinged to the cross and it's hope. They will find worn hands from helping my neighbor and they will find a smile on my face because I am with my God. If that is a bad life, a crazy existence. Then I'm nuts my friend. I'll take that life, gladly, any day.
The Watch
The Watch said "God didn't create religions, man did."
Very good. Now we are making some progress. You just need to understand man created God. If you understand all gods are man-made, then all your other problems will go away.
You have several dozen other problems. For example, you said "First, his son Jesus shed his Godhood and became human."
You have no evidence for that or anything else you said. If you want to be a normal person, you can't accept anything that has no evidence. It's very obvious you have been brainwashed. Not to worry. All you have to do is admit to yourself you have been a victim of liars, then recovery is easy. A belief in a supernatural magician is a terrible disease. It's usually not curable. The victim must be able to admit he is sick before he has any chance of ridding himself of this disease. From your comments, it does not seem likely you will ever be healthy. Most likely your entire life will be wasted believing in the insane nonsense you wrote about. Too bad for you and the millions like you. What a horrible way to live, being totally deluded, having no understanding of reality, permanently stuck in a fantasy world.
Ok hehe yes I have actually heard all this, and am familiar with the story, but as I said in my first post on this article, that Christianity is something that is based on faith, and many times Christians will reword their arguements and such so as to make it seem more complex or disguised, but it simplifies to faith. I said that while I believe this, that isnt to say there isnt evidence. So I am going to have to say here again that that arguement is based on faith =/.
" All this is strong evidence all religions are equal, equally idiotic. "
Bob, I've read several of your comments and all I can say is you have some how managed to hit the nail on the head. My friend, religions can be idiotic. God didn't create religions, man did. You see you can get bogged down in all the politics, theology, patronizing, selfishiness, pridefulness, and miss the whole thing. It not about religion, it is about relationship. Our relationship with God. No matter what denomination a person chooses, if he gets caught up in all the things a relationship with God isn't then it is idiotic. Thank you for making me consider that. God bless you BobC.
The one thing Christianity has that no other religion has is a savior that died once, for all, for the total remission of sins. I call that good news, since no matter how hard I try, perfection is beyond me.
continued:
Now why did he do this? First, his son Jesus shed his Godhood and became human. He was born and raised as any other person. He grew up incredibly wise and insightful. He preformed miracles that only could have been God sent. He was tempted but never acted. He fullfilled prophecy. So we have a man, who time and time again proved to us he was the Son of the everlasting God. Because he was a man, he could take on the weight of sin. You see if he hadn't come as a man, he couldn't bear sin's weight because his full Godhood wouldn't have allowed it. He took that weight and died on a cross. But to us christians it doesn't stop there. Three days later, he rose from the dead. That destroyed the wages of sin completely. You had the only perfect person on this old world, take on the whole flaws of the world and die with it. The ultimate sacrifice. Then defeats death by resurrection. That's not bloodthirsty, that is a grand slam win over death.
We christians believe He is the way, the truth and the life. He paid the dues for us and because of our love for him, our belief in him, we were crucified also. Paul says in Romans 6:
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him that the body of sin be destroyed and henceforth, we should not serve sin."
Verse 9: " Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him."
Being capable of good is one thing, but being free from the bondage of sin is another. That is the core of christianity. That is what seperates us from other religions. Ours belief is profoundly simple but simply profound.
"Fair enough, but I still say that one does not have to be Christian in order to behave that way. Thats my only arguement here... you yourself said its hardwired in us, so I would say that we dont need to have christianity in order to behave that way. Because I do believe that we are all capable of goodness, and one does not need to have religion in order to show their goodness... "
Yes, you are right. You do not have to be christian to be good. I just gave my opinion of where I believe our basic human goodness derives from. To understand where goodness and christianity arrive we must first take a look at what the basis of christianity is.
Bear with me, I am condensing alot of things here for time and space constraints.
Christians believe God is perfect. God is perfect love, perfect goodness, and perfectly just.
Christians believe man is flawed. Because of our disobedience to God(the fall in the Garden Of Eden), we are seperated from God. We believe that because God is perfect in goodness, He cannot stand sin. Because He is perfectly just, He wants to punish sin, but because He is perfect love he wants to save us from punishment. We are his creations, but we, because of choice, screwed up the relationship. To get the relationship back, to wash away the smear of sin, God did something that some find unthinkable and others think is bloodthirsty. He sacrificed his only son.
This is great! This entire article contains not one actual scientific argument! It goes on and on about how christians are coming back with science and reason but the article itself is devoid of any such science or reason!
It's like a stop-gap measure why they try to scrounge something up!
Virtually always, religious people has the exact same religion their parents have. Virtually always, the exact same religion is shared by each generation for centuries. Always, the person indoctrinated to follow the same religion his parents had, claims his religion is superior to all other religions. People are so sure only their religion is correct, they are sometimes willing to murder for it. All this is strong evidence all religions are equal, equally idiotic.
Fair enough, but I still say that one does not have to be Christian in order to behave that way. Thats my only arguement here... you yourself said its hardwired in us, so I would say that we dont need to have christianity in order to behave that way. Because I do believe that we are all capable of goodness, and one does not need to have religion in order to show their goodness...
Fallenman,
"for the watch ^^ that is a perfectly reasonable explanation, after having mentioned that I tried to think of other situatoins in which people behave in such a way.... and not too many came to mind, but I have a more positive view of humanity, for example during war time, people gladly take in other victims to their home and call them friend, and embrace them, people are friendly to eachother for goin to the same college being from the same community same country same state, when they meet in a different place... so I would say there are other examples :)"
Don't get me wrong, I have a positive view of my fellow man.You can find good in alot of places. Situations, such as war or disasters do bring out the good spirit in people, but i attribute this to our basic hardwiring. Genisis, tells me that God made man and woman in His image. Not in how we look, but more on a defining image of his attributes. God is good, therefore we do have good hardwired into our makeup. There are times where we do lay aside our selfishness and other faults and help our fellow man. Remember the magnet? Christians(not the person who sits in a pew for any other reason, but real Christians) reach out because we love our neighbor and we honestly care for our neighbor because God is love and He is in our hearts.
Im inclined to agree that had I been in a communist nation and saw democracy, that I would probably believe democracy to be superior. But as this applying to other religions, I have spoken with a buddhist and he doesnt believe christianity to be superior to buddism... in fact a lot of people go to buddism as well for its meditative characteristics that brings tranquility and peace to your life, my father did this when he was going through cancer, and it helped him immeasurably... he didnt become buddhist he just had an eastern doctor that suggested it. I also have a lady from islam in my philosophy class, and she believes her religion is more correct than christianity... so while I would say that that your analogy could apply, I wouldnt say that about religion... as for the watch ^^ that is a perfectly reasonable explanation, after having mentioned that I tried to think of other situatoins in which people behave in such a way.... and not too many came to mind, but I have a more positive view of humanity, for example during war time, people gladly take in other victims to their home and call them friend, and embrace them, people are friendly to eachother for goin to the same college being from the same community same country same state, when they meet in a different place... so I would say there are other examples :)
fallenman -
<<Also I would like to throw out this question as posed by an atheist that I read while researching these four authors..and wouldnt you think that had you yourself been burn in a muslim family you would be a muslim and had i met you, you would try to convince me as earnestly as you do now, but for the muslim religion?.>>
Good question. Think about it this way. You might have been born in a communist of fascist country and been brought up under that political system. But would that prevent you from recognizing a superior political system if you saw it or learned about it? No, plenty of people in those countries see the benefits of democracy and embrace it. You might have been born in the South in the mid-1900's, and would have likely been brought up a racist. But would that have made racism true/moral? Certainly not.
Again, the only reason to believe in Christianity (or anything) is because it's true. No other reason is acceptable. And one of the great things I love about Christianity is that it's an open 'Book' and is so intellectually robust. This is why Christians can stand so confidently in their faith and know, like Thomas Aquinas said, "the contrary of a truth can never be demonstrated".
Thanks for the great dialog!
What a wonderful discussion. Fallenman, your sincerity is refreshing.
" I do believe that christianity does help many people and I would never say that it doesnt, it provides for a community of people who love eachother like sisters and brothers for nothing more than beliving in the same religion. That is amazing, but I dont believe it is evidence for God. It is evidence that humans are capable of living in peaceful tranquility.'
Alot of skeptics would say the same thing, but let me present another side. Skeptically, we would want some sort of trace evidence, some piece of evidence that we can use to empirically define the existence of God. The problem is that we cannot define God or point out his existence with bits and pieces. God being the omnipotent and omnipresent Lord of all creation; one who would try and apply the microscope to Him, would neither grasp His full glory because they could not fit it all into the boundaries of science nor could they comprehend it if they tried to define it. God is all power and presence thus we can define Him in everything we do. So a group of people living together in tranquility is very definable as evidence of God. Think of it this way. God is a magnet and the group of people is a piece of steel. The steel is attracted to the magnets properties of magnetism.(God's magnetism is His love). You put them together and leave the magnet on long enough, what happens to the piece of steel? It becomes magnetized also.
I ill tackle the other part of the question a little later.
born* sorry ^^
One last thing, I would like to point out that again that usually the reason people convert is through emotions... and rarely is it through tangible evidence... I do believe that christianity does help many people and I would never say that it doesnt, it provides for a community of people who love eachother like sisters and brothers for nothing more than beliving in the same religion. That is amazing, but I dont believe it is evidence for God. It is evidence that humans are capable of living in peaceful tranquility. Also I would like to throw out this question as posed by an atheist that I read while researching these four authors (I was trying to find arguements for and against, wasnt so successful but I did find this questoin) religion is dominated by geography. The middle east is muslim asia is buddhist or hindu and so on and so forth, all the world is divided by the various religion... and im sure if i met a buddhist a hindu or a muslim they would all try to convert me to their religion as you would do me to christianity, and they would say that their religion is the Truth... I would stand to argue that these people became affiliated with their various religion because that was the culture in which they grew up in... and wouldnt you think that had you yourself been burn in a muslim family you would be a muslim and had i met you, you would try to convince me as earnestly as you do now, but for the muslim religion? just a thought ^^
Gary R. Habermas, I didnt research much about him, and I will continue tooo when I can. With that I say that atm I have two research papers that I must write and I am actually very busy at the moment, so I cant devote all the time I would like to this, but I wanted to give my opinions on the authors and such before I went off... CS Lewis I have complete respect for... and I hope to have the time to read his work ^^. The other authors, I may disagree with in some degree, but I will give them their due chance to prove their points! Hopefully xD.
Dave Hunt seems like a Young Earth arguer, and I respectably have to say I question his credentials on this premise, although that does not mean that his book may not have very interesting arguements, that maybe one day ill investigate o_o. But if one thinks the earth is 6000 or 10000 years old, I highly question their credibility.
Josh Mcdowell seems like an interesting person who may give an interesting perspective on the whole thing, and when or if i ever get around to him, I have to say that I am a skeptic. Some criticisms that I happened to read in investigating him, as this should never be one sided, is that he does argue the whole thing a tad bit one sided... according to critics he doesnt investigate what non-christians say on his evedential discoveries, and that he only speaks with christian scholars... I would say that if there is tangible evidence there should be atheists who agree with his claims. If I ever get down to reading his books, I hope to find atheists who also agree with what he says.
Mere Christianity, I would say taht not all children are born with morality, right before I began reading all this, I was taking care of a child, and as I carried him out of a room, he proceeded to hit me in the face =[, in total disregard of my pleading with him to stop... they run a day care here and this child was three, another child... is basically the same way, they have no sense of right and wrong, we have to tell them whats right and whats wrong.. you tell them dont touch the iron, they touch it anyways, will they touch it again? probably not, but they had to learn that... I would venture to guess that they have to learn morality that way as well, and miracles I have no intention of entering... I whole heartedly disbelieve in miracles in this day and age...
I actually do play the devils advocate a lot... as I have argued for Christians against atheists, and I always try to argue both sides of an arguement... in this case the main proponents are for christians and so it only seems fit that I attempt it from the other side.... In the case of C.S Lewis, he had a very interesting life story... as all great writers do T_T, but I would venture to guess that his conversion to christ was purely emotional... I also believe that he left Christianity, because he was angry more than anything.. so what im trying to get at is that he never fully became an atheist, and that he dearly wanted to believe in God, even though he was angry with him... On his three books that I saw, the one in arguement for pain is not based on evidence. Continued next post
My goodness... I am mentally exhausted... I read overviews on those four authors, on wikipedia... and a few other sites... I would be reading their books and such, but I really have other things I should be doing such as wwriting reasearch papers @_@. But I am a curious person, and so I had to at least look at who they were.... I have to thank you for refering me to C.S. Lewis, it inspired me again to seriously consider writing as a careear... :), in any case, I do feel bad for what I am about to say, but lets just call me the devils advocate ;P. Continued next post
Hi Tom, thank you for your very positive remarks! I also have read Lee Strobel at a time I was doubting my own faith, the bible, etc. Case for Christ, really opened my eyes to many facts that I had never heard before. I was shocked at all the evidence that is readily available if one really seeks to know.
I think that people need to be able to voice their doubts and ask their questions! Jesus did not condemn the father who was seeking the Lord to heal his son, and the man said, "if you can," If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for him who believes.” (Mark 9:23)
God doesn't ask us to have a blind faith. I don't follow God with a blind faith, it is a trusting faith. It is a faith that says, do I understand all about God, no I don't; but what I do know about God causes me to trust Him completely.
I trust that He is soverign and He's working out His plan and He is in control. My life was so out of control, it was a real blessing to know that I could trust God and He has shown me so many ways that HE is so faithful!!
You name me one person is always faithful in your life. God has been totally faithful to me!!! It doesn't mean He doesn't discipline me, because He does, and He corrects me in love.
I grew up with so much anger, hatred in my heart; so my life is a testimony that He is God and He is real! There are people in my life who know what God has done in me and is doing through my life and it is all to the glory of God!
fallenman, I'll be praying for you that you'll check out those books and give God a real chance to show you that He is quite real.
I realized because of the way I was brought up I had a really bad distortion of God; I confess that I had put human attributes on Him and He is not human. I learned that when the Father discipline me it was because HE cares about what I am doing.
No human being ever disciplined me, they abused me. The Lord God took me through all of those days of darkness and brought me into HIS Kingdom of light and love.
And my life has never been the same since.
I encourage you fallenman, really give God a chance, you will not be sorry! For His Glory!
What a great book list.I like C.S. Lewis, and "Mere Christianity" is a great book.I also would add "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist" to the list of great books on Apologetics.It was authored by Norman Geisler and Frank Turek.It is worth adding to your library.
Fallenman Thank you for showing the way. You don't realize what a blessing you have been to all of us here on this post. good reading to you and Prophet
Gods Blessing on you and yours
In Christ
Tom
:) ever get one of those moments where you suddenly grow tired of thinking =[. Well I'll investigate these readings that Tom gave, although I have to admit that I have heard of a few of them and I did investigate Strobells before Tom mentioned him for the second time in this thread ^^. Anyways, as Tom said, thank you for the very civil debate ^^. See this can be done in a mannerly way! You've just got to approach it the right way...
Tom
Thanks for all those books that you recommended. I wrote down their names and am looking forward to some good reading. God bless you.
Man's science says that it is impossible for a person to instantaneously regenerate a part of their body. Much less be completely fully functioning. But it happens all the time. Some people would claim "oh it was the body's 'inner will' that caused it to do that". "The body has amazing ability to heal itself." Really? Inner will? A person who literally has no eyes...just empty eye sockets...and the body's "inner will" suddenly, within seconds creates fully functioning eyes where none had existed? That takes more faith than believing in God.
When gravity was first observed by Newton, it was a discovery. (duh, you say. lol). Well, that was a man discovering that God had placed a physical law into our existance for a purpose (i.e. to keep us from floating off into space). At that time, gravity was a simple concept: "What goes up, must come down". But now we know how a planet or star's gravitational field affects other nearby objects in the universe. Does that discount God? No. We are learning the complexity of what He's created. God is a complex God in the fact that there are billions of physical laws that keep our universe from ceasing to exist. Each one created by God. But God is also so complex that these laws are nothing to Him. And they are under subjection to Him. In the Old Testament he made the sun stand still for a time. Well, with our knowledge that we've gained about our planet, that would mean the the earth stopped spinning. Did it? Probably. In our natural infinite minds, scientists could come up with a dozen natural reactions that would have happend if such a thing occured. Maybe earthquakes, or floods, who knows. But they don't realize that God's spirit takes precedence over all the physical world. If He wanted the solar system to stop revolving, it would happen. And there would be no consequences, because it is He who holds all things together.
speaking of science...a wise man once said "science doesn't discount God. On the contrary, science is simply man discovering what God has made and how."
fallenman -
I would doubt that most thinking people would doubt the validity of math, however, all thinking people would agree that if you add an error into the equation you will get an erroneous result.
Which is what happened to Einstein originally. And speaking of math, does a little math equation like figuring out the cholestrol content of eggs qualify as math? Because such a little thing as that took us from "eggs are bad for you" to "well, they're not as bad as we said". That may seem simplistic, but the point is that our "science" remains flawed because it is put forth by flawed people, and interpretations by people are just that, interpretations. I am not saying we should not study God's wondrous creation. What I am saying is that a theory is just a theory. If you want to know how something really works, go to the person who created it.
You have been given a whole lot of information on where to find some answers to your original question on facts vs. blind faith when it comes to God. If you truly are the seeker you say you are, go back over these posts and write down this information, and then follow it up.
fallenman -
Just to set the record straight, I am a woman, and a grandmother. Those 9 months are very long physically, but the connection you make with that little life during that time is beyond explanation. And yes birthing that child is full of pain, but you really do forget it all the moment you hold that child in your arms. I was a single mom after my baby was 3 months old, put myself through college, often times went hungry so she had food, and did it all by myself. Of course I wouldn't recommend doing it that way if there were other choices, but I would most definitely do it all again. So I think I can speak with some measure of authority when I say that if you are not ready to have children practice abstinence, but if you get pregnant hang in there, that little life is worth it.
Wow I am impresed with this dialog, except for our angry Bobc this is a civil debate. Love it.
If I may offer some reading material for Fallenman that might help his delimna. When I came back to Christianty I held up the Bible and told God. I believe in your Son, show me the evidence that I can believe all of your word, of course this is the Bible. I would recommend CS Lewis Mere Christianty,(He went from an athiest to agnostic to a believer). Lee Stroble's Case for faith, Case for Christ, Case for a Creator. Josh Mcdowell was also a athiest and set to prove the Bible was wrong, He is ended up becomeing a believer. He has written a series of books title Evidence that demands a Verdict. Dave Hunt's In Defense of the Faith and The Historical Jesus by Gary R. Habermas. I read these and more and recieved the proof I needed to accept the Bible as reliable and trustworthy as the word of God. Couple that with the lives that I have seen turned around and the healing that I have seen in His name have convince me that it is true. Hope to see you on the other side one day. marantha.
Gods Blessing on you and all in this post
In Christ
Tom
fallenman - <<actually God is more complex>>
I'd respectfully disagree and suggest you may be confusing the complexity of life with the explanation of life. Again, evolutionists need millions of little miracles to explain how things just happened to be so ordered and set up for life to exist whereas a theist only needs to point to "In the beginning, God..." - one big miracle. Much more simple and elegant an explanation.
<<there was nothing.>>
How does something come from nothing? You asked me earlier what caused God: My answer? That's a category mistake - much like asking 'Where is the bachelor's wife?" You don't cause the uncaused cause. If you think that's bad logic then I'll turn things back around to you and ask, what caused the Big Bang - what caused the universe? See, you will always up with an eternal 'something' no matter what. And science says the universe had a beginning, so you have to scratch that option off your list.
And I don't doubt mathematics or Einstein. I think it's very interesting how he turned from pantheism to theism (although not the Christian concept) after his error in his theory was pointed out to him. His work, the bell scientists discovering the big bang's afterglow in the 30's, and much more all point to the universe having a beginning. So what caused it?
These questions and the design of the universe is what turned around mega-atheist Anthony Flew. He cites the teleological argument as his major proof point that God exists. Very interesting read if you want to check it out: http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/flew-interview.pdf.
Fallenman,
'the Big Bang, is simply an explosion'
Actually it was not an explosion but a finely tuned expansion of space, time, energy and matter. If you did some research on the big bang you would find that it was far more complex then you are giving God credit for.
'and life was created, there was no thinking involved there was no magic there was nothing'
I think you should do some research on this. You will find that the fine-tuning events which have been identified by cosmologists (128+ in number) during the formation of the universe is perfect for life to exist on earth.
'he created the universe, how ? we dont know'
Yet you discount the big bang event. In eternity, 15 billion years is a 'blink' of an eye...
'The person who came up with the Big Bang was a skeptic of the very idea, he wanted to believe that the universe had always existed it was much more pleasing, and I tend to agree... It was Albert Einstein,'
Albert Einstein did not come up with the big bang, he came up with the theory of relativity which contradicted the then modern thought that the universe was eternal and unchanging. He found out, that in fact it was not eternal but expanding, and if something was expanding it had to expand from a finite point back in time.
The term 'Big Bang' came up from Fred Hoyle who was mocking the theory on a radio program. Now, the person who came up with the idea of the big bang was Georges LeMaitre, who was a Catholic priest who had a degree in astrophysics...
Oh and in response to schumacr, actually God is more complex, the Big Bang, is simply an explosion and life was created, there was no thinking involved there was no magic there was nothing.. God is an intelligent being who knows everything, that is extremely complex, he created the universe, how ? we dont know, extremely complex, and did it all in quite literally in the grand scheme of things, the blink of an eye... very complex... The person who came up with the Big Bang was a skeptic of the very idea, he wanted to believe that the universe had always existed it was much more pleasing, and I tend to agree... It was Albert Einstein, and as a scientist, he had all this data and all these calculations, and while he wanted to deny it, he had to admit that all the things he had found POINTED SUGGESTED HINTED at something such as an explosion... it all pointed to this theory... the whole study of physics as developed by Einstein, points towards this... all the mathematical computations and such point to it... and if you are goin to argue the validity of math, I am goin to question your credibility...
Oh I am sorry, I will listen to your responses on abortion, but I will no longer speak of the subject..
By the way, I will listen to your responses, but I will no longer respond to them... :) and I'll present you with these questions, How are Apologetics doing? Do you believe their arguements are growing stronger? How necessary are they? What do you think of the fate of christianity in another 20 years? stronger or less? What do you ideally want?
what we decide should ever matter... we need to respect our women more, and if they want abortion to remain law, then it should remain law, it is their choice, and we have no right to take it from them, if they so desire it. Once a man has given birth, then we can give some ground to the men.
The pain of losing your partner, the prospect of having to raise this thing all on your own without an income, the thought of having to go through 9 months of pregnancy to the agonizing process of birth... how can men even comprehend all the plethora of things stacked upon the shoulders of women... we have no right in this matter... and I think that if the women think abortion should be outlawed, then so be it. any other way, and I'm sorry I cant take you seriously... I can understand your view point, but i cant say that
We should expand our understanding of all things... all subjects, such as biology, anatomy, physics so on and so forth... because we learn to cure diseases we learn about all the little critters that roam the earth, which are dangerous which or not, which animals are going extinct and for what reasons... the plethora of questions revolving around space and the universe and all the millions of things in this world that go unanswered... why? Because I believe that we were blessed with this amazing ability... the ability that put us at the top of the food chain.. and to not use this thing is a travesty... it is a waste... and besides, when we learn we learn of all the beauty of all the amazing preciseness of this world, how can it not be inspiring to learn? How does not every man woman and child want to learn? Ahhh but I suppose I am an odd ball... I mean one of my many goals in life is to learn till the day ofm y death... to never cease being a student... I wouldnt want it any other way...
anywho back on topic! so as to the matter of abortion... well first off we have to realize that pro choice is not anti life... they dont automatically have 0 value for life, and some would say they base their value on the life that is concious thinking and already speaking... its telling us how it feels and what it wants... and if it is suffering who are we to tell it to keep suffering? But then at the consequences of what? of a human life? and that is why this is such a controversy... do the sides balance out? or is there overwhelming persuasion on the side of life... well again as I stated before, we as men should have little to no say in this matter... in a subject that was most likely mostly contested by men, I dont believe we've given enough heed to the opinions of women... who are we to tell them to "Buck up, be a man, take responsibility" when they are not even men... what of the young who become mothers and then are abandoned by the man.. the man ruined her life and left her to fend for herself
Well the point of those stories was to help you understand it from a different perspective. But I really dont wish to argue about the effectiveness of "Thought Experiments". Nor do I really care for the arguement of abortion, in the past yes, but now not as much. Its very controversial...
On a side note, in class today, specifically political science, we were talking about the education system in America, and how it was much worse than most other developed countries, as determined by test scores. Specifically in math and science. I am sure most of you have probably heard of this, so its no news ot you... But I found the implications to be rather interesting... as compared to most other countries we are the most religious developed country out there... and I cant help but think that religion is impeding upon the progress of math and science.. Take our positions on evolution for example.. I wont go into that, but that is just one example.. I think that if ever I come across the convincing arguement for religion, and I do take the path of Christianity, that it should not impede on my progress in education, in any subject of education. I think that humanity should always examine the world around us, that we should question everything, and that we should pursue every avenue of questionable evidence, test and figure out every aspect of life... more in next post
fallenman -
We don't answer questions on moral controversy through hypothetical situations that are beyond the realm of possibility - and the one you offerred is indeed impossible, so one must arrive at the conclusion that it is a set- up for only one possible answer. In the example I listed, it is also a situation so unlikely to happen that it's really not worth discussing; however, in the interest of discussion I will say that I would indeed choose the 6 year old child over the embryos. NOT because I don't believe embryos are life, but because they are not developed enough yet to feel pain. If my other choice had been a person who was paralyzed and in a coma, I again would have chosen the child because the other person would not have felt any pain. By that reasoning, could you say that I did not believe the paralyzed, unconscious hunk of protoplasm was not a life?
So you see, these hypothetical situations leave a lot to be desired, because often the situation itself is an automatic determiner of the outcome.
I have two children already. And I fell in love with both of my children the second i knew my wife was pregnant. I made plans for their future! I dreamed of the day they learned to ride a bike, lost their first tooth, took their first step, went to prom, got their drivers license, graduated from high school. I did all that before they were born. And I would do everything in my power to make sure they would have the chance to experience all that.
i do know this: If i were a woman, and i was pregnant, and the pregnancy threatened my life, and it was either the baby or me....I would choose to let the baby live. But, then again, I have the luxury of knowing that will never happen to me, because i am a man. But if there ever came a time where I could, by the giving of my life, somehow save the life of my unborn child, I would do so in a heartbeat. Without reservation.
And as far as the question of "what if the baby is threatening the life of the mother?" If a mother and her two year old child are walking down the street. He child runs into the street in front of a bus. The mother runs and shoves her child out of harms way, but she is killed in the process. The mother is called a hero.
Where's that love when the baby is still inside her? Why won't a mother give her life for her child then? Because there is no love. But that goes to the point of saying when does a fetus become a living being? It's all about love...or the lack thereof.
fallenman -
How could you not know what you were doing, and if the condom broke then isn't that a part of the consequences of your choice, such as in "if I drive down the road at 100 mph I might get a ticket but I will take that chance". I have heard testimonies from people who were the product of rape who were very glad their mom's didn't abort them. And as far as a life threatening situation, those are much rarer than we are led to believe, but it would be treated as a medical emergency and efforts would be made to save both lives - and believe me, that fetus would be looked upon as a life.
Until we eliminate those causes, abortion will always be an issue.
I think the point is this...why do away with abortion? Just do away with the reasons we "need" abortions. That is the root of all of this.
fallenman -
<<there are many theories on a subject and all of them are concievable correct, you go with the most simplest because often it is correct... God is a complex theory, and it isnt the simplest one for the existance of life, but thats beside the point, its still a leap of faith>>
I'd respectfully disagree and take the stance that God is a much more simple solution than an atheistic or materialistic one. Why? Because for the latter you need a million little miracles for things to be the way they are, whereas Christianity only needs one big miracle.
And the point of the thing is not to add your own little twist on it, your not supposed to add a door, or say welll I can rescue both :P the point is you only have this choice or that... and depending on what you do, thats how we answer questions of moral controversy...
And what if the child was life threatening, what if she was raped, what if she didnt know what she was doing, maybe the condom broke, there are million of scenarios in which its not just a case of simple yes or no...
Fallenman,
OK, I've been in this room for months and I'm still alive, so there must be a door for others to come in and out, So open the door and leave!
I've heard another argument relative to stem cells and embryos. You're in a room with a 6 year old child and a container of embryos. There's a fire. You can only rescue one. Which do you rescue? And of course the answer is the child, which proves that you know the child is a person and the embryos are not. Well, I have two arms, I'll rescue both!
If we're going to make up "what ifs" to prove our points, let's at least make them realistic.
On abortion and women's "rights", the woman has the right to say NO. What ever happened to abstinence? Am I going to take a life because I don't like the consequences of my actions? Because it's not "convenient" to have a child right now?
Anyways I think that women should be the only one to have a say in this, and I am amazed that women would actually be against abortion... But in my opinion, its the woman who gets pregnant, heck men can actually have a kid and never know, its the woman who has to go throuhg the 9 months, the woman who HAS to take care of it once it is concieved (unless she gives it up to adoption, and I think thats fine), and who are we to tell her what she can and cant do with her body? In any case, if I ever said I was pro abortion, and I am, it is because I have the women in mind... because I certainly would never tell a woman to have an abortion, but I would also never find myself in a position to have to =/. Im more responsible than that... but not everyone is =/.
Ok some arguements for abortion, that I have actually heard of but I had forgotten, consider that you are locked in a room no way out no windows no nothing, and theres a baby there, and a knife.. cute lil fellar :), and after awhile you begin to realize that the baby is growing.. you find it to be amazing you may examine it further, but after awhile, you would get used to it... but lets say it keeps growing.. lets say it never stops growing.. lets say after a few months, your pinned up against the wall and the baby is taking up the whole room, and is still growing... now do you think it is morally ok to kill this baby in order to save yourself? theres more, but thats just an example..
to obey his every command* wacky*
Ethics in a nut shell is basically create the least suffering possible, of course if this was all there was to it, then it wouldnt be very active :). There are sections in ethics that deals with specific issues such as abortion, at this point in time, I wouldnt know what they say about it =/. In any case... philosophers try to pinpoint universal truths, if ethics was based on philosophers how would anyone know if they have ethics or not, especially since many people dont even know what philosophers say? Well simple, whats good to you is good to me, to a certain extent. For example God says we must obey him, the famous story of abraham, who would have killled his son to show his obedience to god, was he ethically right? No, was he morally right? Yes. God teaches us to obey his every move, so if he tells us to jump on one foot and rub our tummy well itd be silly but itd be morally right, we were obeying god... thats about the only difference between Christians and atheists... Luckily, God isnt always malevolent, so we wont have to worry about God giving us any wack orders any time soon..
So...philosophers dictate what ethics are. My point exactly. What happen to the ethics of abortion is wrong? At one point our ethics stated that a baby had the right to live. What happened to the ethics that homosexuality was wrong and against nature? Man's ethics have been, and will always be, changed and adapted to fit what feels good at the time. Regardless of what human philosophers think.
Of course and that is a very interesting question that many people ask, and many people search for, of course christians would simply say well... God... but in my opinion that still boils down to faith you know? You have to take a leap of faith that God was before everything... that he was the first cause, but then one has to think who caused him? and why was the first thing so complex? it contradicts such a basic of science, which is basically if there are many theories on a subject and all of them are concievable correct, you go with the most simplest because often it is correct... God is a complex theory, and it isnt the simplest one for the existance of life, but thats beside the point, its still a leap of faith =/
fallenman: <<He was so good at it that by the end of one video out of 9 I had already begun to suspect maybe the earth really was 6000 years or 10000 years.>>
I wouldn't get bogged down in the young vs. old earth debate; there are seven orthodox positions on the creation account and it isn't a subject to make or break Christianity. The main point in all seven positions is that God created all that we know. He is one of the only two sources of eternal existence - (1) an eternal Creator (2) an eternal universe. And since science has disproven the notion of an eternal universe, that leaves us with only an eternal Creator.
Now admittedly, some try and posit collapsing universes and multi-verses, etc., but there isn't enough evidence to warrant putting one's 'faith' in such a position IMO.
In the end, the main question that needs answering is "Why do we have something rather than nothing at all?"
Except I suppose :P philosophers, but ethics is a very large subject of philosophy, it is the one of the most active subjects today.. in philosophy
Well actually ethics is not subjective, theres a whole study on it and its objective, thats why they can say "this experiment was not ethical" if it was subjective they would say "According to whos ethics?" Philosophers have studied and defined ethics that doesnt have much to do with anyones opinion
If I feel it's within my right to kill someone just because they piss me off, then that is my ethics. Most (if not all) people would disagree with me, but would still be the set of ethics that I live by. Hitler was a very ethical man...in his own sight. He had a set of ethics that he felt everyone should live by. Just because his ethics were different, does that make him wrong? You would most likely say "yes". So, then you set yourself up as judge as who is ethical and who isn't.
But, you say, ethics is a set of beliefs shared by a country or group of people, not just one man. True. And Hitler had a large following as well.
And...if this "group of people" with a particular ethical system "evolves", then their ethics "evolve" whether for the better or worse. A wise man told me once "Just because a million people say a stupid thing...it's still a stupid thing". Man has proven countless times througout history that they are fallible and imperfect. And so are their ethics. But God is perfect and so are his morals.
True, Fallenman, everyone adheres to a sense of ethics. That was never in question. The point is that God's definition of morality never changes...but ours does. We like to change our morals and ethics to fit our situation. So...we still adhere to a set of ethics...its just that they have been changed to accomodate us. And when Christians refuse to "adjust" God's morals, then we are considered narrowminded and intolerant.
I submit to government whole heartedly, I would never dream of violating the laws of our government, UNLESS, of course it was unjust... I have no problem with authority, and according to christianity, it wouldnt be hard to get into heaven what with murders themselves easily getting into heaven by seeking repentenance before they die.. but whats more, I have considered hell, and I dont find it a reasonable threat to me... If I should for some reason be cast into hell, I dont think I would really care about burning for eternity, seems like it would become boring after the first 100 years ~~. As for me, my goal in life is to learn so that I can change this world for the better, so i can leave a fortune for my children, and so I can hopefully change the world even if just a degree in a better direction... If God considers this bad, then I want nothing to do with him... as for morals, atheists and all humans in general adhere to ethics..
Wow. I read all of BobC's posts. There is a lot of anger and bitterness in him. If that's what it's like to be an atheist, I sure don't want to be one. I'd rather believe in God and live a life of love and peace, than be angry all the time.
And his comment that he made in his first post about how the problems of the world are because of Christians. Real Christians don't murder, they don't steal, they don't rape, they don't practice lying, homosexuality, sodomy, pornography, anger, bitterness, greed, drunkeness, drugs, etc. Now, if these are all of our problems, and Christians dont involve themselves in these, then who's to blame? But from the conversations I've had with a few atheist/humanists....these aren't problems to them...they are free will. Good becomes evil....and evil becomes good. Morals are twisted and shaped to fit whatever suits their fancy. If it feels good...then do it. No accountability. And since there is "no God" then there is no consequences to their actions.
But deep inside, they know. And what makes them angry with us Christians is that they know. Their consciences have been seared, and we are the only voices left to tell them that they are in danger of judgment. If they could only silence us, then they would be free to do what they want, without conviction.
I used to base everything on emotions and feelings. Well, since I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ (because HE wooed me with His love) I have learned that God's love doesn't begin or end based on my emotions or feelings.
God is the one who created me to have feelings and emotions. I do not let these guide my life any longer. I let my God guide my life. Emotions and feelings can be manipulated.
I go on the facts of God's Word.
Fact 1: God is not man, He is Spirit and He is truth
Fact 2: God is The Creator, everything has it's beginning and end in God
Fact 3. Man is in rebellion and wants total control
Fact 4. THe knowledge of God is written of every human heart and men are without excuse.
Fact 5. Jesus Christ was born, crucified, buried and on the third day HE rose again! Praise God
Fact 6. The Holy Spirit entered our world and leads us into ALL truth (if we let Him)
Fact 7. When Jesus Christ returns all of lifes questions will be answered fully!
We only know in part right now, but when we see Him, we shall know Him as He knows us!
Man is in such a state of rebellion and you look around this world in 2007 and what I see continues to help me press on in my walk with Jesus Christ.
For those who deny Him, not amount of persuasion is going to change their minds, because they have a heart problem.
I had one too, the Lord had to give me a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26) and a new spirit!
I was a foster child, beaten, dead, and it was the KING OF HEAVEN who saved my life; not any people. When you truly seek God with your whole heart; He will be found by you; as He is not very far from each one of us!
God uses whatever it takes to get our attention, even died for us! In His unfailing love, we find every answer to life = Jesus Christ! Thank you Lord God!
fallenman -
Ok, but did this person have to disprove EVERY assertation relative to evolution before you would start asking your own questions and seeking your own answers independently? Did you know that it is said that Ch