An influential evangelical leader clarified that he has not and will not endorse former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney for president following confusion over his statements on the Mormon contender’s right to run for the office.
-
(Photo: AP Images / Charlie Neibergall)Republican presidential hopeful, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, center, speaks at a campaign press conference in Sioux City, Iowa, Tuesday, Nov. 13, 2007. Romney spoke about immigration.
Dr. Richard Land, who heads the Southern Baptist Convention’s public policy arm, explained in a statement Tuesday that “defending” Romney’s right to run for president is “very different” than endorsing the former governor.
His clarification was in response to a CNN report last week that included a statement Romney made at a private event in South Carolina.
“I get good support from evangelical Christian leadership around the country, you know, despite a difference in religion,” Romney had said. “I think it was Dr. Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention who said we’re not electing a pastor-in-chief, and so I appreciate that support and just you remember that when you go to vote.”
SBC’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission pointed out that Romney was referring to two variations of the same quote by Land – “We’re not electing a theologian-in-chief, but a commander-in-chief” and “We’re not electing a pastor-in-chief, but a commander-in-chief.”
“Those statements were made in response to questions about whether or not Governor Romney’s faith was an absolute ‘deal breaker’ for Evangelicals in selecting a presidential candidate, not an endorsement of Governor Romney,” Land explained.
“I have defended various candidates from time to time when I’ve felt that they have been unfairly or inaccurately criticized,” the ERLC president added. “Neither defense nor assessment should be confused with endorsement.”
The prominent evangelical leader stated that, as a “matter of policy,” he has “not endorsed, do[es] not endorse and will not endorse candidates.”
Former Gov. Romney is seeking to be the first Mormon U.S. president and has struggled to gain the support of Christian voters – many of which view Mormonism as a cult.
Some evangelical leaders have defended Romney’s right to be equally considered by Christians despite their views on Mormonism.
Land, for example, said he views Mormonism as another religion, just as he considers Islam another religion even though it shares some biblical figures with Christianity. The Baptist leader has also gone as far as calling Mormonism a fourth Abrahamic religion.
“Judaism being the first, Christianity being the second, Islam being the third and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being the fourth,” Land recently said on “Political Capital.”
But other evangelical leaders have voiced greater concern about Romney’s Mormon faith and have advised Christians to make sure Romney explains his faith and its connection to his public duty before casting their vote for him.
“Values are shaped by religious beliefs, or lack thereof, and one’s Mormon beliefs would surely in one sense or another shape one’s values, priorities, conviction, etc.,” said the Rev. Richard Cizik, vice president of governmental affairs of the 30-million member National Association of Evangelicals.
Mormons are not Christians and Romney should be made to clarify his religion before Christians “jump on the Romney bandwagon,” Cizik added. Continue >>
RSS
Not only does 1 Peter 3:19 talk about Christ's visit to the spirit world to preach the gospel, but also 1 Peter 4:6 talks about the gospel being preached to the spirits who are dead - "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
Those spirits do not get a second chance to live their life, but they do get a first chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, and accept it or reject it. And if they accept it, they must receive the ordinances of the gospel, including baptism (1 Cor. 15:29), as all ordinances must be performed before the resurrection and judgment.
Again, there is only a very tiny percentage of the people of this earth who have even had a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't believe that God is so unjust as to cast all the people who have not heard it to hell. God would be very very unjust and unmerciful God if that were the case. Probably 95% of the people who have lived on this earth have not even heard the name Jesus Christ. Is that their own fault? No! So what will happen to these people? The only way to be saved is in and through the name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ; there is no other way! These spirits will receive and hear the gospel in the spirit world, and there have opportunity to judge for themselves if they want to accept it or reject it. It is not a second chance; it is their FIRST chance!
Many have been confused and it has been hugely debated subject, but there is no need to be confused. You have not found anything or heard of anything about this before because it has been revealed anew in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Christ himself has made this subject perfectly clear in His church through his chosen servants, prophets and apostles. If you want to read what Jesus Christ has revealed on the subject, please read D&C 138.
There are many today that debate, are confused, and know not where to find the truth. This was prophesied anciently (Amos 8:11-12). What we must do then is to search out and find the true church of Christ, which is lead by Christ himself, to know the will of God. His church has been restored today through a chosen prophet, Joseph Smith.
GMG - Ezekiel says the "stick of Joseph" when referring to the Book of Mormon because Lehi, who left Jerusalem around 600 BC to come to the Americas, was of the house of Joseph (1 Nephi 5:14). The entire history of the Book of Mormon came from Lehi, his family, and posterity, and thus they of of the house of Joseph.
There were many great cities, people, culture, and civilization in the Book of Mormon who lived here in the Americas. There is loads of evidence of ancient civilizations here in the Americas. Have you ever heard of the Mayans or Aztecs? Have you seen the great ruins of temples and city centers they built in Antigua Guatemala. Archeologists and anthropologists have found dozens of groups that have lived for thousands of years in the Americas. One of these groups could have easily been the group from the Book of Mormon.
Have you heard the ancient tradition of the great white bearded god Quetzalcoatl? He is considered among the indigenous people to be one of the most sacred Gods of the Aztecs. This God was none other than Jesus Christ himself when he visited the Americas after His death in Jerusalem, and is recorded plainly in the Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 11-28).
Joseph Smith knew he was of the tribe of Ephraim and Joseph through revelation, and when he was translating the Book of Mormon he found that it was prophesied there as well (2 Nephi 3:7).
GMG,
I know we cannot be perfect in this mortal life. The only sinless one was Jesus Christ. But we can be perfect in fulfilling and complying with the ordinances of His gospel, including temple covenants. That is one area in which we can comply perfectly with what the Lord has asked us to do. They are required for salvation and exaltation. Our "continuing sacrifices" is our daily repentance, faithfulness, and enduring to the end. We are saved by grace, after all we can do, and that includes striving for perfection (2 Nephi 25:23). But there will come a time, after this mortal life, when we will be able to completely comply with Christ's command to "be ye therefore perfect," even as the Father.
Again, if you "love God" you will do everything else God has commanded you to do. That is why all the law and the prophets rest on those two great commandments, because they encompass them all. "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). We MUST follow the commandments. They are not optional, thus their name - commandments. We do not pick and choose which commandments we obey, and which ones we do not. God has commanded us to obey all of them, and if we do not, we must repent.
I'll say it again, we cannot be saved by the grace of God if we do not follow His commandments. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and THEY FOLLOW ME" (John 10:27). How do we follow Christ? We have faith in Him, repent of our sins, and obey His commandments, including the ordinances of His gospel found in His holy temples.
Because of His forever "once for all" atonement", I am saved by grace, "but not of myself..." (those good works again) - there is NOTHING I can do to add to His perfect gift. No, we cannot just live any old way we choose, if we are then there is something wrong. Jesus said to Peter,
Do you love Me.....feed my sheep. We are back to His words on "Love..." I began my walk with Him as a baby, needing milk, we grow in His word as we walk with Him. Again, Galatians speaks well to grace.
Thank you for aswering my question about Joseph, the reason I asked if he believed he was of the tribe of Emphraim is it would fit with what you believe Ezekial is saying. That would explain why he said America was peopled by the lost tribe of Israel. But you never addressed the rest of my earlier question on this, that if this was so, and there were many great cities, why has no trace been found of them anywhere? And how did Joseph Smith know he was of this tribe?
Going back to the question of those who have died and whether they have another chance for decision, Heb 9:2 "it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement". I know you used the verses from Peter to show where Christ went to speak to the spirits, but that is a hugely debated issue as to what that really means as it is apparently considered one of the hardest to decipher passages in the Bible. Nowhere have I ever found anything, or even heard of anything before the explanation you presented of this passage, that there were any second chances. I still maintain that our lives here on earth are all we have to make our choices, the Bible and it's teaching underscores that very issue.
Hesadanza,
It IS impossible to fulfull the law. Heb. 10:1-3 talks about continual sacrifices because we are not perfect. That whole chapter follows the idea that man under law needed regular sacrifices for reoccuring sin. Vs.11-14 applies specifically to Christ's death as the final sacrifice - 14 "for by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." If we are forever perfected we can then stand in the sight of our righteous God through Jesus. Nothing else is required to make us righteous.
vs. 26-31 speaks to the fear of judgement under the law, but that the fear should be much greater should we scoff at Jesus' complete atonement.
The rest of the chapter deals, basically, with the difficulty of the new covenant (it was, after all, a big change), persecution, having endurance.
John 13:34-35 Jesus gives us a new commandment, "...love one another...by this all will know that you are my disciples..." This in a sense is the gist of all of His teachings, "Love God, love your neighbor as yourself" This is what I mean when I talk of that deep heart knowledge, how can you not follow in His footsteps.
2 Nephi 29:7-8 is prophesying about the coming forth of the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Nephi knew that many would not accept new scripture after they had received the Bible.
The Lord did not just give His revealed word to those that were in Israel. He has revealed His will to all the inhabitants of the earth. To those in Jerusalem (Bible), and to those in America (Book of Mormon), and probably in other areas of the earth as well. The testimony of two nations is a witness that God is real and that He reveals His word unto all His children. All the revealed scripture testifies and bears witness of the veracity and genuineness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We should not murmur that God gives us more of His word, or that more than one nation has received His word.
Ezekiel 37:16-20 is talking about writings, not gatherings - "write upon it", "write upon it", "the sticks whereon thou writest". We definitely disagree on this point.
Joseph Smith was of the tribe of Ephraim. Why do you ask?
Yes, the "doeth" refers to Christ's teachings. Christ has instituted the ordinances of His gospel that are requisite for salvation in the kingdom of God, and if I comply with those ordinances then, yes, I am "completely righteous" as far as those ordinances go. I can be completely perfect in fulfilling the ordinances of Christ's gospel. There is only a handful of ordinances He has asked us to fulfill. They are not hard, nor impossible. I must then stay faithful, repent daily, and endure to the end, to be saved (2 Nephi 31:19-20). God's grace saves us when we do what God asks us to do.
It is not impossible to fulfill the law. Why would God give us a law we could not fulfill? "I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them" (1 Nephi 3:7).
Remember, even Christ commanded us to be perfect - "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). We are to strive for perfection every single day of our lives. Then, and ONLY then, will the grace of God save us.
Again, if you do not comply with the ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ, you cannot be saved (Matt. 16:16). The gospel of Jesus Christ does not give you license to do whatever you please and think that the grace of God will then save you because of some deep-down acceptance of Christ. Our actions MUST reflect our thoughts, desires, and beliefs.
Which quote from Nephi is unclear?
I do not understand your quote from Nephi. It is clear that you are using it to verify your understanding of Ezekial, but the connection seems vague to me. Could you please expound on the connection?
If we say our salvation is based on the OT, then the NT salvation is invalid. And the other way around. Jesus did not "fulfill" the law (Matt 5:17) to put us under bond to somehow now require us to combine the OT and NT for salvation. No, as Paul so clearly illustrates, you pick your route of salvation - either OT righteousness (perfection) or NT grace. Since I cannot be perfect no matter how hard I try, then I pick grace. Being a child of God means I strive to follow in Jesus' footsteps, with His help and guidance, no matter how often I fall short. Paul talked about how he struggles with himself to follow Jesus - all His children do. But by grace I am saved.
I must disagree with you on Ezekial. Vs. 18 asks what 16 & 17 mean, and what follows is the explanation.
Did Joseph Smith think he had a connection with Ephraim?
On Matt 7:21 - Matthew chpts. 5-7 was the Sermon on the Mount, and the doeth refers to the
teachings Jesus was outlining. 7:28-29 refers to these "sayings", which were a type of ethical standard. This is not to say Jesus' authority was not complete (5:7-20); we are not to view these as mere suggestions. However we know that "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23), so we know also complete righteousness is impossible to achieve and impossible to save us (Matt 5:20). We are back to the impossibility of fulfilling the law and the gift of grace covered so thoroughly in Galatians (and others too). And Jesus fulfilling the law (Matt 5:17) which takes us back to grace.
I disagree about Matt 7:23. Christ was talking about those who professed a belief in Him, yet did nothing about it. It is a separate paragraph and thought from the previous thought of false prophets, although it is along the same general topic of disbelief. Let's go back to verse 21 -
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Notice the qualification? He that "DOETH" the will of the Father. Belief alone is a good first step, but it is not sufficient for salvation. Indeed, these had a belief that was SO deep that they claimed to be able to do miracles in the name of Christ. Yet Jesus taught us that we must DO the will of Heavenly Father. If not, we will never come to know them, and we wil not be saved.
Again, in verse 24 and 26, "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock... And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH THEM NOT, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand" (emphasis added).
The works of Christ are required for salvation, and that includes EVERY ordinance of His gospel which He has established for that purpose. There IS, in fact, a checklist of ordinances of the gospel with which we must comply in order for the grace and mercy of Christ to have full effect in our lives and bring us to salvation and exaltation in the kingdom of God. If we do not comply with even one of His ordinances, we cannot be saved. Baptism is one of them (Matt. 16:16). Even Christ had to comply with the requirements of baptism in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Matt. 3:15 emphasis added; 2 Nephi 31:5-7).
If we truly accept Christ, deep inside as you say, we will DO what he has commanded us to DO. Faith alone is dead, as it gets us nowhere by itself. Faith should prompt those who have it to fulfill ALL the commandments of the Lord.
Ezekial's prophecy about the two "sticks" of Judah and Joseph is not to be combined with the prophecy following it of the gathering and cleansing of Israel. They may be illustrative of one another, which is why they were probably written together, but they are NOT one and the same prophecy. They are two separate prophecies. One is about writings, and the other is about gatherings.
Yes, I also believe that each book of scripture is true. And yes, each book of scrtipure testifies and validates every other book of scripture. But that does not mean we pick and choose one body of scripture and throw away the rest. We use it all, and every book of scripture testifies of the truth of the other.
"Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also" 2 Nephi 29:7-8).
In Matt 7:23 Jesus was talking about false prophets and knowing them by their fruits, and when they said "Lord, Lord..." He said "I never knew you". He was not talking about believers. I believe we are sanctified for good works, and that for the love of the Lord we can't help but gravitate that way, but good works don't save us, nor are they required for salvation; as Paul says "and not of ourselves..." If good works saved us, than we would need a checklist of exactly how much is enough for salvation.
Believing Christ is who and what He says He is, in our heads, will never save us - Satan believed it, knew it to be a fact. It's a heart knowledge, an acceptance deep inside. When we receive him then we receive the Spirit.
I know that you don't believe Ezekial's prophecy was for a united Israel, but if you go past vs. 20 that is what it says. Do you believe that Joseph Smith is a descendent of Ephraim? This is the thought that occurred to me when I asked if you believed the lost tribe of Israel came to America.
I think we are using different meanings for "stand alone" My meaning was that each book stands alone in it's veracity, which I agree is not the same as total teaching. When Jesus came he came with a new covenant, for the jewish people from that time on and for the gentiles. His sacrifice and atonement fulfilled the old law, "old things have passed away". And of course all scripture is good for teaching...as the OT verifies the authority of NT through it's prophecy of the Christ, who was Jesus. Of course, it also validifies the teachings of Christ, and He often referred to the OT. But Jesus also fulfilled the office of the priesthood. And Paul tells us that we are no longer under the law, but under grace. Galatians is pretty much devoted to that teaching.
GMG - We don't believe that Ezekiel's prophecy had to do with reuniting divisions of Israel, especially since the word used for "stick" in Hebrew literally means "wood". He was speaking about writings and scriptures. Back in Ezekiel's day the people wrote on long scrolls and those scrolls were then wrapped around a wooden pole or "stick". Hence, when he says "stick" he is actually saying the writings and scriptures of Judah and Joseph.
No, any one book of the Bible can't stand alone. If we only had one book of the Bible, let's say Obadiah, for example, we would get absolutely nowhere in our study of the gospel. Obadiah has twenty-one verses. What would we know about Christ's atonement from twenty-one verses? What would we know about God's plan of salvation from twenty-one verses? What would we know about the life of Christ, his example, his teachings from twenty-one verses? Hardly anything. No, the Lord meant us to use ALL scripture, all revealed word, together. "ALL scripture is given by inspirtion of God, and is profitable for doctrine..." Any one book cannot stand alone.
I agree that we are saved through faith, and by the grace and mercy of God. We don't "earn" salvation by our works, per say. But again, if we have faith in Christ, and love Him, we will obey His commandments and ordinances which He has instituted. ALL of them. For exapmle, if I am not baptized, I will be damned (Matt. 3:15; Luke 7:30; John 3:5; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:48; Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Ether 4:18; 3 Nephi 11:33-34; D&C 84:74; D&C 112:29). Why? Because it is a required ordinance of the gospel of Jesus Christ that He has made so that we may enter into His fold and receive a remission of our sins. By obeying God, and following His commandments, we don't "earn" our salvation, but we place ourselves in a state of grace whereby Christ may then justify us before the Father and we may be saved. If not, we will not be justified. Without works our faith is dead, and Christ will look at us at the judgement day and say, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt. 7:23). We must have works, the works that Christ has asked of us, to even think that we are considered His. The works are required. If we don't have works, it is all just lip service. The commandments are NOT optional! They never have been. And God commands us to fulfill all the ordinances of His gospel.
Oh yes, I most definitely believe that if we love the Lord we will listen and follow His word, the simplest way to look at this is Jesus command to "...Love God...and love your neighbor..." That pretty well sums it up. And James' whole focus was to explain how this works. Eph 2:8-10 says "For by grace you have been saved through FAITH, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS lest anyone should boast, for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
The whole point is that we do His will not to earn anything, as it is already mine, but rather to show whom I love. The same is true of baptism - it doesn't save me, it is the proclamation that I have been saved and that I belong to Him.
Our mouths can say anything, and say it very convincingly at times. But my actions, those are the things that are the final verification of what my mouth is saying.
Hesadanza,
The scriptures you listed from Ezekial have to do with a prophecy that the northern and southern divisions of Israel will be reunited as one nation. Which brings something else to mind, don't you believe that America was peopled by the lost tribe of Israel (or something along that line) with great cities and the like? But no ruins have ever been found, and all of our state-of-the-art satellite imagery has yet to show anything that hints at it.
And I don't agree that any book of the Bible can't stand alone. When he said that "all scripture is useful.....he was simply referring to the fact that all scripture verifies all other scripture, that taken as a whole if clarifies the whole Word. As humans we can be rather dense and stubborn.
ForHim - Cute. Maybe if you want to have a real discussion instead of reading the comics you can come back and have one with us.
By the way, real Christians decide that they are going to follow Christ also and do the things that he has asked us to do, not only "believe" in Him. That is only the first step. They will also be baptized as a witness before God that they are willing to follow Christ and receive a remission of their sins through His atonement. Will anyone please read James 2? Faith without works is dead. I cannot just believe something in my head and then go and do all kinds of awful acts and expect to be saved, or expect to call myself Christian! My acts must reflect my belief in Christ. I must actually DO what he has asked us to DO. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Christ was not joking when he said this.
We don't just use the Bible to support us because God has revealed more of His word. That would be like only using the New Testament and forgetting the Old Testament. No. We use ALL the revealed word of God. "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16). No book of scripture can stand on its own. That is why God has given us more of his word. We've been instructed by the Apostle Paul that ALL scripture is profitable for doctrine.
Might be interesting for you to know that the Book of Mormon was prophesied to come forth in the Bible. In Ezekiel 37:16-20. The sticks referred to wooden writing tablets which were the common stock of writing material used in Ezekiel's day. The stick of Judah is the Bible, for it originated in the land of the Jews. The stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon, for it originated in the land of the Americas were there lived a branch of the house of Joseph. And they are one in my hand today.
Sorry Hesadanza, too late now for my brain to function, will address what you've said tomorrow.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0061/0061_01.asp
FT - I watched the so-called "documentary" on the Book of Abraham and, once again, it is false on many counts.
You know how I can tell it is not a respectful, fair, and well-done documentary? They did not mention Hugh Nibley's research on the Book of Abraham. Nope. They didn't even mention his name! Not a word. Since the Church specifically commissioned Hugh Nibley to research and write about the recovered papyri, don't you think it a little suspicious that they didn't even say a word about what Hugh Nibley has written about it? Did they say a word about the 609 page volume that Hugh Nibley wrote on the subject? No.
I would refer you to "The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment" by Hugh Nibley, which has just been republished in a second edition in 2005. If you are serious about studying the origins and content of the papyri, I recommend this book.
The very first words of this book read, "This book had to be written because a great fuss was being made about a scrap of papyrus. Some people were endlessly dinning into the ears of the public that what was written on that small and battered strip proved beyond a doubt that Joseph Smith was a fraud because he thought that it contained the Book of Abraham, whereas it contains nothing of the sort. But who said he thought so? They did. . . How on earth could Joseph Smith or anybody else have derived a condensed and detailed account of fifty pages from fewer than twenty hieratic signs? . . . Is the Book of Abraham a correct translation of Joseph Smith Papyri XI and X? NO, the Book of Breathings is not the Book of Abraham! Does it pretent to be? No, it was never put forward as such."
Yet the critics still, and have for 40 years, have tried to make us believe that the papyri that was recovered is beyond question the source of the Book of Abraham. Is it too much to ask that the papyrus rolls that contained that magnificent book have NOT actually been recovered?
At least five papyrus documents, including two or more rolls, were sold to Joseph Smith. What was recovered in 1967? Several badly damaged fragments of papyri. Only about 13 percent of all the papyri that Joseph Smith possessed is still extant. The critics get a hold of that 13 percent, translate it, and proudly declare that Joseph Smith is a fraud. Do you see the problem here? It is pure unadulterated deception.
GMG - Ephesians 2:20 and Ephesians 4:11 have reference to offices in the church that Christ himself established upon the earth when he was here in the flesh. If we are to believe there exists this same church upon the earth today, it would have to have the same offices that Christ established in his church in the meridian of time.
Let me try to explain vicarious work for the dead. The ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ are required for salvation and exaltation. There is NO exception. It is ONLY in and through the name of Jesus Christ that we are saved. However, only a very small percentage, let's say 0.00001%, of the earth's population since its creation have even heard the name of Jesus Christ. So how does God's justice account for these people? God's justice would not cast all these people into hell for not knowing Christ. They were ignorant of anything and everything about Christ, but it was not their fault.
Every man and woman who has lived on the face of this earth MUST have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ's gospel. That is God's justice. That is his love for all mankind. If they accept it, they must have the opportunity to enter into the ordinances and covenants of His gospel. Again, these are required for salvation and exaltation.
Those who have died without any knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ will have the opportunity to learn about it in the spirit world. Christ himself visited the spirit world, after his death, for that very purpose (1 Pet. 3:18-20). Why would Christ go to preach to the spirits in the spirit world unless they had some kind of opportunity to accept his gospel? It was not vain preaching. If they want to accept his gospel there, they must enter into the covenants and ordinances of the gospel. Christ instituted these covenants and ordinances. But these ordinances require a physical body to perform. You cannot baptize a spirit, for instance. So members of Christ's church here on earth perform vicarious ordinances for, and in behalf of, the dead in temples, the House of the Lord. Those spirits in the spirit world can either accept or reject those ordinances performed in their behalf. They still have their agency.
Does that help?
ep1433, ok, glad we kissed and made up! :)
I agree there are plenty of people who have never heard of Christ, there are even some who have never even heard of a Bible, let alone read one in any form. But God said that he put knowledge of Himself in our hearts, and somewhere it says that we are basically responsible for the extent of the knowledge availble to us (words to that effect). I know of no place that says what He's going to do with those who have no knowledge of Christ, but if I believe that He is really a just God, which I most definitely do, then I believe He will only hold those people responsible for choices made based on the heart knowledge He has given to all of us. The Bible repeatedly talks about making choices, and you must be alive and functioning in order to do that. Consequences are based on those choices. Those who are dead have run out of time for choices - that also seems crystal clear biblically.
The Bible also has a number of things to say about the dead, beyond judgement. It makes it very clear that the dead are dead, leave them alone. I can talk about the witch of Endor, but it could be argued that that only applied to direct communication with the dead. What about the man who wanted to go back and tell his family that God was truly there, but was told that they have the word of Moses to tell them (sorry, I confess I'm not as good as I should be in quoting chapter and verse). Now I know we could come up with all kinds of reasons why a bunch of these things really don't apply specifically to what we are talking about here, but like I said, the Bible seems to indicate that dead is dead. So, where does it indicate otherwise?
GMG - you're welcome. I hope I can answer the questions you have.
One of our articles of faith states “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”
The ordinances required for salvation and exaltation include the following:
* baptism
* confirmation
* priesthood ordination (men only)
* initiatories - washings and anointings
* endowment
* sealing
The authority of the Aaronic Priesthood including the authority to baptize was restored by John the Baptist, by the laying on of hands, to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in Harmony, Pennsylvania, on May 15, 1829.
The authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood including the authority of confirmation, priesthood ordination, and to officiate in the other ordinances of the priesthood was restored by Peter, James, and John, by the laying on of hands, to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery near the Susquehanna River between Harmony, Pennsylvania, and Colesville, New York, in May or June, 1829.
The priesthood keys of the gathering of Israel were restored by Moses to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in Kirtland Ohio, on April 3, 1836.
The priesthood keys of the gospel of Abraham, or Abrahamic covenant, including celestial marriage, were restored by Elias, to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in Kirtland Ohio, on April 3, 1836.
The priesthood keys of the sealing power of all ordinances were restored by Elijah to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in Kirtland Ohio, on April 3, 1836.
Others have appeared in modern times to restore keys including Adam (Michael), Abraham, Moroni, Noah (Gabriel), Raphael, Lehi, Nephi, Mormon, and many others. Elder McConkie once wrote, "Every key, power, and priesthood ever held by a mortal on earth has been restored. All such came to Joseph Smith and his associates and these keys are now vested in the First Presidency and the Twelve."
ep1433, I have had LDS friends correct me on many aspects of the LDS faith, and I have accepted their correction. For example, I once thought there was an error in the Book of Mormon as it said Christ would be born in Jerusalem. A Mormon explained to me that Bethlehem and Jerusalem are very close to each other and that "Jerusalem" could encompass Bethlehem. Based on how he explained it, I thought it was reasonable, and I accepted the explanation. I stood corrected and withdrew that criticism.
Let me also say that it is very, very hard for some people to examine things with an open mind. I know a very smart man who just has a massive blind spot when it comes to Jewish people. He is anti-Semitic, and he cannot see how such views warp his objectivity.
I confidently advocate my views, but I also listen. I hope you would expect no less of me.
GMG - Here is a direct quote "At the risk of sounding disrespectful, I can get that same feeling under a number of circumstances and they have nothing to do with God." Certainly seemed like you were implying something much more trite than the a spiritual mainfestation. I guessed indigestion. My bad. Maybe you meant heartburn :-) Kidding.
GMG I realize we don't need to agree here. I wasn't aking issue with disagreement I was taking issue with a tone that IMO too often seems smug and pious. But thanks for responding to my statement. I'll be hapy to take you at your word.
May I jump in and respond to your question to Hesadanza? You said "And I'm really confused by your assertion that God commands you to perform vicarious works for the dead - if they didn't exercise free will in their own lifetime by accepting Christ's sacrifice, performing good works, and going through temple ceremonies, how can they be saved after death?"
No need to be confused GMG. A small percentage of the earths population from all time has learned of Christ's sacrifice for them. This is just a statistical fact. Billions have lived and dies without so much as hearing the term Christ. Vicatious baptims provides for them and others to accept Christ. What do you think happens to such individuals?
Hesadanza, sorry but I may have assumed incorrectly that you are female. Somehow I got that impression. I guess I should stick with "they" rather than "he/she".
And BTW, can't someone PLEASE respond to my points about how the Bible was compiled and why the canon was never intended to be closed. I made them a few pages back. Or can I assume you all agree?
Hesadanza - thanks for directly answering my questions.
I don't have very much time right now so just let me ask you a few more questions, and I'll get back to you with some thoughts later on.
What are the ordinance of Jesus Christ, and who restored them, and from where?
What makes you certain these prophets and apostles are called by God, and give God given revelation? Previoiusly you cited Eph. 2:20, but this refers to the OT prophets and NT apostles, and Paul is talking about the new covenant including both OT jews and NT gentiles, so I'm not sure how this applies to some of the points you have tried to make.
And I'm really confused by your assertion that God commands you to perform vicarious works for the dead - if they didn't exercise free will in their own lifetime by accepting Christ's sacrifice, performing good works, and going through temple ceremonies, how can they be saved after death?
and to epl433 - I did NOT compare manifestations with indigestion, I simply said there were a number of ways I could get a burning in the chest. Many emotions, and situations that cause an emotional response, can cause this feeling. I'm not plagued by indigestion, so it wasn't even on my mind. These forums are for the exchange of ideas, not necessarily agreement.
FT - The point is, would see it as worthwhile to debate someone who also thought that the movie The Matrix was real? Or someone who felt that some races are inferior. Or someone who thought that God does appear on tortillas? So my frustration is bourne out of the fact that I am trying to hold a sincere debate with someone who presupposes he can know the thoughts and intents of my heart. How are we ever going to get anywhere with soemone who holds an opinion that a simple appeal to logic would render IMPOSSIBLE. It certainly speaks to your an bias that toward the LDs that I see as completely insurmountable.
And I have faced this in real life. I work with a guy who, when we met, kindly told me he thought my religion is false. I thought he might have been sincere until I found out that he also believes certain races are inherently bad. So now it's pretty obvious the guy isn't a sincere critic. He's just a bigot and a crackpot.
I'm just hoping to one day find a sincere critic so we can have an honest, open, obejective duiscussion.
FT - Yes, your comments did make me throw a fit. You said:
" Although this might make ep1433 thow a fit ;-) I know you have NOT investigated as you claim. You either did not look hard enough, or you did not look with an open mind. "
So Hesadanza, beware, FT has an ability beyond any human being to read and perceive your thoughts. FT, maybe we should send you to Washington so you can help the government discern the thoughts and feeling of the terrorists.
FT that you say such things isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is such comments prove you completely incapable of objectivity. And objective individual trying to understand and learn wold not make such a sweeping assumption in complete ignorance of facts.
It makes it all to easy to dismiss critics when they begin with an assumption of either stupidity ("you either have NOT investigated") or insincerity ("or you didn't have an open mind") on the part of their adversary.
Now any fool knows that FT has NO WAY of knowing such things. Had he said "In my opinion, I think you haven't studied this" he could at least remain on logically sound ground. But to claim to "know" anoters heart is rediculous.
The question then becomes, "why does he say such things if they are unknowable?". In other words if it is IMPOSSIBLE to know the thoughts and intents of Hesadanza's heart unless you are God, why still claim to know them. If FT claims HE DOES know such things, he is either 1.) lying or 2.) trying to manipulate and score debate points by making confident statements that can never be proved or disproved. I suppose there is a third possibility. FT are you God?
Now FT is a lawyer so I could make a joke about knowing he is lying by his lips moving but I'll refrain. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and just asssume he is trying to be manipulative.
FT, you claim I get too angry about such stuff. But should't I be able to hold a Christian to a standard of intellectual honesty and sincerity?
What I see when we debate here is not overt sins of swearing or harsh blatantly unkind words (or at least not often). No, that would be obviuosly un-Christian. Evangelicals maintain their piety by simply lobbing insincere, smug comments at the LDS and think such covert attacks allow them to maintain their pious status. I'm sorry but I think your words betray your hearts. But that's just my opinion.
All,
I have an idea. Since the Christians (that is, those that believe all is required for salvation is to humble themselves before Jesus Christ and admit it is only through His precious blood are we saved) and the LDS folks both claim to believe the bible how about only using it to support their assertions. If any book is inspired it can stand alone and can prove the other book without using it. In other words, a Christian can witness to a Jew only using the Old Testament to point them to Christ. Can a LDS member do the same with just the Old and New Testament???
How could I find more in a church which doesn't have the restored ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ? How could I find more in a church which doesn't possess the authority of the priesthood of God, God's authority to preach the gospel and perform ordinances? How could I find more in a church which doesn't have temples wherein we learn the will of God, and perform His ordinances? How could I find more in a church which doesn't have living prophets and apostles who have been called by God to lead and guide it by revelation? How could I find more in a church which doesn't read, study, and live all of the revealed word of God? How could I find more in a church which doesn't believe in God's justice whereby He commands us to perform vicarious work for the dead? How could I find more in a church which does not have Jesus Christ at the head?
I could not.
Hesadanza, of course I have not been with you, but I have talked to many former LDS who experienced and lived all that you describe. And yet these same people discovered a higher and better Truth! They were not offended. They were living the LDS gospel, but they found so much more!! These men and women have experienced the Spirit of grace, and they testify that there is no comparison!
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.
FT - I have investigated thoroughly and with an open mind the church of which I have been a part for 26 years. That's all I do. I might even know a bit more about Mormonism than you do, believe it or not. I choose not to spend all my time studying anti-Mormonism because I know it is saturated with evil. Why would I want to study evil? When I have studied it, I have found it full of error - gross, dark, error, and lies, which tends to destroy faith, and speaks evil of the Lord's anointed. The author of it is the devil. I choose to study the gospel, which is full of light, truth, love, peace, and the Spirit. The author is God.
How can you say, "I know you have NOT investigated as you claim"? Have you been by my side as I've prayerfully studied the scriptures and felt the Spirit? Do you know the hundreds of books I've read? Have you been with me when I've prayed earnestly to know the truth and had it manifest to me by the power of the Holy Ghost? Have you sat with me in sacrament meeting, or sunday school, or priesthood meeting as I have felt the sweet impressions of the Spirit wash over me? Did you go on my mission with me as I witnessed the faith of thousands of people in a foreign land, who accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and entered the waters of baptism clothed all in white? Have you prayed with investigators of the Church and felt the Spirit witness the truth of the gospel to them? Have you traveled the world over with me, meeting the Saints in 12 different countries, and seeing the strength of the membership of the Church, their humility, service, sacrifice, and testimony? Have you been with me while I've listened to General Conference for the last 26 years and each time felt the Spirit as the Lord's prophet and apostles have addressed us, and felt that their calling was from God? Have you served with me in church callings and felt the promptings of the Spirit as I have done what He has asked me to do? Have you attended the holy temple with me, hundreds of times, and each time being overcome with feelings of love, joy, peace, and thanksgiving to God and His Son, Jesus Christ, for the blessings of priesthood ordinances? Have you shaken the hands of the apostles, and been in the presence of a prophet of God? Have you witnessed the Lord's anointed speaking with the gift of tongues? Have you witnessed miracles performed by the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood of God? Have you been overcome with thanksgiving when the windows of heaven have been opened and blessings have been poured out by the paying of tithing to the Lord's church?
No. You have not. You have not done what I have done, not seen what I have seen, and have not felt what I have felt. You are in no better position to say that I have not investigated The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than my next door neighbor.
Hesadanza, I have not misinterpreted you. You have not answered the question yet.
I know several LDS who used to bear their testimony just as you have done here. "I know the church is true. I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet. I know Gordon B. Hinckley is a prophet." These were faithful members who were returned missionaries, who tithed and lived as righteously as any member in your ward. They were in the scriptures and in prayer - and yet they openly inquired, and prayed - and they learned that their testimony was false.
Now, I know there are "gentiles" who join the LDS church. Both the former "gentiles" and the former Mormons believe they have spiritual discernment. So, where does that leave one? My view is that one must investigate thoroughly and with an open mind. Although this might make ep1433 thow a fit ;-) I know you have NOT investigated as you claim. You either did not look hard enough, or you did not look with an open mind. I know that might sound harsh or arrogant, but I would rather be direct with you than mislead you. My God guide you in all truth.
GMG - we might know we are feeling the spirit in several different ways. (In no particular order, and there is overlap):
First - the fruit of the Spirit is "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith" (Gal. 5:22).
Second - "Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart" (D&C 8:2).
Third - "he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things" (Moroni 10:4-5).
Fourth - by a still small voice (1 Kgs. 19:12; 1 Ne. 17:45; D&C 85:6).
Fifth - "But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right" (D&C 9:8).
Sixth - "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4).
Those are some of the ways that we receive spiritual manifestations.
Yes, the temple ceremonies are a requirement for salvation. The priesthood ordinances of the temple have been established from the foundation of this earth to bring mankind back into the presence of God. They are the ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and he established them for a reason. They are not optional, just as baptism is not optional. In the temple we make covenants with Heavenly Father. They are a witness to God that we will do what he says, and obey his commandments. That is why we do vicarious work for the dead in the temple, so that ALL may have justice before the Father, even those who never heard the name Jesus Christ while in their mortal life.
FT, I think you have misinterpreted me. I know that the LDS Church is true. I don't need to read 10,000 false accusations to try and convince myself otherwise. I know they are false. I have studied them, and found them wanting in the extreme. I thank God that I have been blessed with the gift of discernment, and I can tell the difference between truth and error. The attacks the skeptics put out could not be more dripping with error. The feeling I get when I read that stuff is one of grossness, and darkness. It is intensely gross how vile and disgusting the attacks are. That is not of God. That is of the devil, and he deceives the hearts of men (Alma 5:40; Moroni 7:12; Omni 1:25).
ep1433, buddy, you remind me of "Mr. Furious" from "Mystery Men." ;-) Simmer down just a bit!
The "would you want to know" question is serious, and it is a good starting point for discussion. There are people of many faiths who are just content with their faith and would NOT want to know if their faith is true. They are happy, and that is all that matters. If that is how Hesadanza feels, then there is no point in going further. It would be a waste of my time, and it would be unfair to him.
Finally, of course I compare myself to Paul - not that I am like him - but as I try to emulate Christ through Paul's example. We hope to become more like Christ, and Paul gives a good example of a well lived life.
Good luck against the Nittany Lions.
The kicker is this, you Evangelical folks don't think we are spending eternity together (as I'm LDS) and I'll I can say to that is A-frickin men! And if I won't be around you then it must be heaven where I am going to be.
I am sorry. I realize this rant is a bit childish but seriously folks, I have never seen such a bunch of smug comments in my life. The condescension is so thick you can cut it with a knife.
Let’s review your very “Christian” behavior:
Summathetes: “Your ignorance regarding the Scripture profuses from both sides of your self contradictory professions.”
Topekan has apparently decided HE is capable of determining if Hesadanza believes in Christ or not after reading all of one posting wherein she said she believed in Christ.
GMG then compared Hesadanza’s claimed manifestations of the Holy Ghost with indigestion.
Servent then referred to a sincerely provided quote about our faith in Christ that Hesdanza offered as “LDS babble”. Wow, thanks for the consideration servant.
FT found it fitting to compare such efforts as you are each making with Paul (not McCartney by the way).
Is it possible my little rant here is just as snide as some of your comments? Perhaps, but you’re definitely giving me a run for my money. But if any of you are hoping to represent your faith well, you have failed miserably. Hesadanza tried repeatedly to respond to questions with sincere responses. And again and again you ignored the responses and moved on to other questions. IMO your responses with an unnecessarily smug and completely lacking in sincerity.
FT – you couldn’t even be original at all. You practically lifted your comments verbatim from other discussions with me! I am telling you it was eerie how similar your words are. Are you sure you aren’t Borg or something.
So go ahead and turn your very pious noses up at me and ignore my comments. I’m sure you won’t take them to heart. I may be a jerk, but if you folks are the ones holding the keys to true Christianity then methinks someone needs a designated driver.
FT - Why do you say garbage like "If the LDS church was not what it claims to be, would you want to know?" That is the faith debate equivalent of playground taunts. It is the kind of junk that is used to influence weak minded individuals. Plastic banana, that's what it is. Total wax fruit stuff. Artificial, ya know?
It's just posturing for debate points. If you are sincere in your discussion and exercising any amount of objectivity you would also be willing to consider that YOU may be the one who is wrong. But more importantly, the statement is meant to imply that some fools out there would rather be a part of something knowing it was false. How condescending!
If you are the least bit objective you would realize that in every faith there are those who are knowledgeable, those who are sincere, those who are intelligent and faithful. The LDs faith has many such members but at the same time does not hold a monopoly on such people. Many Evangelicals are of the same ilk. And yet in both faiths there are those who are ignorant to their beliefs and still faithul and there are even some who probably do not believe but still claim the faith. But statements like yours make me think you must see the LDS differently. Which makes you not only seem un-objective, but also unfair, unkind, and unintelligent (methinks I may be off FT's Christmas card list now).
I can't imagine anyone who can look inside their heart and honestly think that a faith of millions of members contains either fools or liars and not a intelligent and faithful person among them. Such thinking completely strains logic.
Sorry, I just call em as I seem.
Hesadanza - I notice that you refer again to a personal manifestation by the Holy Spirit. You never did answer my question as to what form this manifestation takes. I also asked if temple ceremonies were a part of the requirement for salvation.
Could you please address these items for me.
And FYI, I was referring to the posts I made earlier about the colelction of books that ios the Bible. But again I'll bet my lunch money no of you even touch it.
Hesadanza - I would warn you not to waste your breath with some of these folks. If you make a valid point (as I feel I have done below) it will be completely ignored. They love to claim that "mormons are afraid of the truth". What is it Evangelicals are afraid of in responding to valid, substantive points like those I made below?
FT might be an exception but even he has a bit of a one track mind regarding the Book of Abraham. FYI,no fear FT, I'm still working on a response. Seems you didn't like my joke though.
It's all just a silly little game called "try to stump the Mormon". Funny thing is, I rarely find any of these questions challenging (FT's BoA stuff being an exception) and I would consider myself only moderately knowledeable about esoteric LDS doctrines. Many LDS folks I know are much more informed. And oddly enough some the Evangelicals here seem to be extremely well informed about these same esoteric LDS doctrines.
FT, the thing about your Lectures on Faith comment is that if Joseph Smith had made contrary comments in other scources wouldn't it be reasonable to assume he was misquoted? Those lectures are typically written by scribes and are not canonized LDS doctrine (perhaps for very apparent reasons). There is nothing nefarious here. It seems you're simly stretching to make an invalid point based in obscure records. Why refer to them at all?
I will watch the "documentary", but I doubt that it will provide anything new as far as criticisms, falsehoods, lies, and deceptions. It is hard to kick against the pricks.
Thanks for your replies.
Let me note first that there is much NEW to learn about the Book of Abraham. Renowned Egyptologist Robert Ritner has published some work (http://humanities.uchicago.edu/depts/nelc/facultypages/ritner/index.html).
I would also great encourage you to watch this very well done, award-winning documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE
It is new, and it is compelling. It is also fair and handled respectfully. It is well worth your time.
Again, he was a "personage of spirit", he was not just a spirit. He never said the Father did not have a physical body, or a tabernacle. We are all personages of spirit, for we all have a spirit clothed with a tabernacle of flesh. Jesus is a personage of spirit too. I don't think Joseph Smith changed his mind.
Islam is not a Christian religion, although they do much good.
What Christian religion has faced more persecution than the LDS Church?
I have already studied the Book of Abraham origins, and I continue to study them. I have read through all of the so-called "facts" of the book given by the critics, and they are false. Do a little more studying, and you'll find they are false too, fabrications of evil, conspiring men.
I do not want to study the Book of Abraham with you because you will just give me all the same old criticisms that the skeptics have been giving for the last 187 years. They cannot come up with anything new, and I cannot idle away my time reading such foolishness. Church scholars have already addressed their attacks many times, and have found they have little or no basis whatsoever.
The LDS church does not discourage me from exploring criticisms. Indeed, we are asked to ask questions, and then search out, study, pray, and find the answers.
I know that the LDS Church IS what it claims to be. I have lived the doctrine, and know it is true. "If any man will do my will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:17). I have also asked God if it is true, and he has manifested to me that it is so, by the power of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost does not lie.
Yes, Jesus exists, he loves each and every one of us, and hopes that each will enter his fold. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt. 7:22-23).
Hesadanza, you miss the distinction. Smith taught that Father was a personage of the spirit and Jesus was a personage of the "tabernacle." Why make the distinction if it had no meaning?
It did have meaning - and this is one reason why the lectures were later dropped from the D&C. JS changed his mind. It is OK to change one's mind or receive new revelation - but it just seems to contradict the prior grove story.
Read it again, "the Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness..." He did not say that the Father did not have a physical body. He said he was a personage of spirit, glory and power. The Son is the same. We all have spirits, and some may have more of the Holy Spirit that abides in them than others. The Father is full of the Holy Spirit.
He also said that the Son "is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father."
If the Son has a physical body, so does the Father. For they are in the express likeness of one another.
Hesadanza, my reply email to you was undeliverable, so I will post it here.
Islam faces far greater opposition world-wide than does Mormonism, but that does not make Islam true.
I am sorry you are unwilling to study the Book of Abraham origins. It is only the facts that convince me it is a fraud.
I would note that my church does not discourage me from exploring criticisms - even from the mouths of the critics themselves. I find that God's truth always comes out first, and consideration of the criticisms only strengthens my understanding of God's truth. If the LDS church is true, then an investigation can only strengthen you. If it is false, then the question is: would you want to know....
If the LDS church was not what it claims to be, would you want to know?
I am always around and willing to talk if you ever change your mind.
Perhaps we can share this common ground: even though we may have a different understanding of who Jesus is, I think we can both agree that Jesus exists and that He has an abiding love for us.
May God's Holy Spirit lead you in all truth.
The Lectures on Faith were originally written in 1834 as part of the curriculum for the School of the Prophets in Kirtland, Ohio. They were included in the original (1835) Doctrine and Covenants printed in Kirtland, and constituted the "Doctrine" portion of that book.
In Lecture Five we find the following: “We shall, in this lecture speak of the Godhead: we mean the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There are two personages who constitute the great matchless, governing and supreme power over all things... they are the Father and the Son: the Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power possessing all perfection and fullness: the Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle.”
Thus Joseph taught that God the Father was a personage of Spirit, that the Son was a personage of tabernacle (he had a body) and the Holy Spirit was the “mind” that both the Father and the Son possess. Smith later changed his view on this matter, and The Lectures on Faith were subsequently removed from the D&C.
To claim that only 66 books were ever written or inspired by God is 1.) to be ignorant to history and 2.) simply a tool to try and control doctrine and claim to posses all knowledge rather than leave the window open to other inspired books. i don't necessarily consider this to be an intentionally evil act but more an act of convenience.
And the version of the Protestant Bible isn't what is important, I just reference the KJV as it is common. But only Protestant Bibles limit themselves to the books Evangelicals consider the ONLY word of God. Anywhere else in the world in many Christian faiths outside of Protestantism you would use slightly different books.
And FYI, if I were to have listed all the books ever considered inspired or canonical I would have filled several pages. Certainly some of these books are the same as the books we currently have but with different names or differetn scribes. But many of them have additional information that the early church found worthy. The Catholic church and others have many of these book in their libraries and many are avilable and published. The important point here is that the KJV Bible is not the sum total of all scripture or minimally there is no scriptural basis to claim so and much evidence to the contrary. Do I as a Mormon find the KJV Bible ot be perhaps the best collection of early Christian writings and older Jewish writings from the Middle east? sure. But i do not believe (and again the facts are on my side) that the KJV Bible is the end and only possible word of inspired text from God.
To Summathetes and others - I've never understood where the evangelical contention that the Bible is the sum total of all scripture comes from. It certainly isn't Biblical (meaning the Bible does not affirm that Genesis to Revelation is all the srcipture ever written). The Bible that many Christians use isn't even the same as the Bible Catholics use which has additional books (macabees etc). The Bible is just what it's name means, books (or Holy Books if you like). And some collections of these books are different than others. If you were to start a library of ALL books that the early Christian church considered canonical then you could fill a library. At one time or another the following books were considered canonical and/or inspired: The Works of Pilate, Song of Songs, Sirach, Odes, Baruch, and on and on. In fact many of these books are still considered inspired by Christians in some parts of the world (Eastern Orthodox for example). And additionally, many christians in America don't consider Song of Solomon inspired. So to assume that the KJV Bible is a book delivered by God himslef as the only words he has ever inspired is to be completely provincial (to your protestant perspective) and ignorant to the history of inspired text. If you had been born in a different time or even a different country, same time, you would use different books and think nothing of it.
Also, the NT warns us to beware fo false Prophets. This is good advice. But evanegelicals seem to ignore the fact that if there were to be no new Prophets, the advice would have simply been to beware of Prophets. Calling Joseph Smith false doesn't make it so. I believe it merely puts you in the same company with those who said the same of Christ and went so far as to charge him falsely with heresy much as you charge Joseph Smith falsely.
Yes, I've read the different accounts of the First Vision. They are all wonderful, and add to the detail of that experience.
As far as I'm aware, the School of Prophets did not teach that. Do you have a specific reference? Your link is to the Lectures on Faith.
I sent you an email about the Book of Abraham.
Hesadanza, are you aware of the different versions of the first visions documented in official LDS records? ( http://www.irr.org/mit/fvision.html ; http://www.irr.org/mit/First-Vision-Accounts.html )
Are you also aware that the "School of Prophets" in Kirtland, run by Joseph Smith, taught that God the Father was a spirit and had no physical body? (Official records here: http://www.centerplace.org/hs/dc/lectures.htm ) Do you find this strange given that Joseph had already allegedly seen God the Father in the grove?
Finally, are you willing to openly investigate with me the Book of Abraham?
No. I don't think they looked just like any other persons standing there.
"I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" (JS-H 1:16-17).
bye like anyone else, I mean God and Jesus looked like anyother person standing there
Servent - Jesus's Second Coming has not happened yet. That is a singular future event where all eyes will see his coming in the clouds in full glory. But that does not preclude his ability to reveal himself to others if he chooses to do so.
Exodus 33 tells us that Moses spoke to God face to face. Exodus 3 tells us he spoke to him from a bush. Those were two different occasions.
Christ can reveal himself however he chooses to do so. If it is in his full glory beyond the brightness of the sun, so be it. If it is incognito on the road to Damascus, so be it. He is God.
Again, Joseph Smith did not change the gospel. God restored the gospel of Jesus Christ through a prophet, just as he has revealed his word throughout all the ages of the earth, through prophets.
Please read my words again about the scriptures on the Godhead/Trinity. I quoted some 12 scriptures from the Bible.
Hesadanza,
What Christians consider Jesus' 2nd coming is actually the 3rd Coming according to the LDS folks. Per your own words you said Jesus and God appeared in flesh and bone to JS, which would be his second coming.
Also, did God not appear in a bush to Moses?
And when Jesus fully revealed himself to the Apostle Paul on the road to Damscus, was it not a blinding light, and Paul was blinded for days? And yet this false prophet JS claims to have seen Jesus and God just like anyone else!! The apostle Paul was entrusted with giving the gospel to the gentiles and he was blinded by Jesus beauty and you believe that some guy 1800 years later saw Jesus and was entrusted to change everything. Do you actually hear that?
BTW, you didn't mention anything about the scripture I quoted showing the trinity. You just quoted some LDS babble.
Servent - Regarding the Second Coming. It has not happened yet. The Second Coming of the Lord will happen when all the earth sees His coming in the clouds of heaven, to set his foot upon the Mount of Olives, which will cleave in twain, and he comes to stay, to rule and reign on the earth for one thousand years, and Satan will be bound. His coming in the First Vision to Joseph Smith is not to be interpreted to mean it was his Second Coming. In fact, he has appeared many times to the prophets since 1820, but none of them should be meant as his Second Coming. That is a singular magnificent event that has not happened yet.
The Bible does not talk about the visits of the mighty men of the Bible that have come back because the Bible was finished being written about 1900 years ago. These mighty prophets of God have returned to restore the gospel of Jesus Christ, with all its ordinances and priesthood within the last 187 years. That is why the events are not mentioned in the Bible. But their coming was, however, prophesied to happen. For example, Elijah was prophesied to return. "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse" (Malachi 4:5-6). This has in fact occurred, and Elijah has restored the priesthood authority which pertains to sealing families together for eternity, thus fulfilling this prophesy.
Elder Holland - "With these New Testament sources and more ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, 'The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.' On another occasion He said, 'I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.' Of His antagonists He said, '[They have] . . . seen and hated both me and my Father.' And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, 'Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.' 'My father is greater than I.'"
"To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as 'O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me' and 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me'? To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: 'Christ Jesus . . . being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.'"
http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775-15,00.html
Servent - Yes. God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate and distinct individuals, combined in one Godhead.
Elder Holland has explained, "We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable EXCEPT believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true."
Indeed, Harper's Bible Dictionary records "the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”
Elder Holland continues, "So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself."
Yes, the three members of the Godhead are one in power, principle, and mission. But they are not the same personage.
John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Elder Holland - "But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first Christian Saints, many of whom were eyewitnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either? We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four."
http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775-15,00.html
Summathetes - What makes you think that God giving more scripture is heretical? God has given inspiration and revelation to prophets to write scriptures for thousands of years. Why should he stop now?
Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God, and his name has been had for good and evil among all the nations of the earth, just as was prophesied would happen (JS-H 1:33). "By their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt. 7:16-20).
Joseph Smith never gave specific dates of the Second Coming. Sorry. If you wish to read his diaries and journals, they have been published in their entirety in "An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith" which is a compendium of Joseph Smith's writings from 1805-1844 in a 518 page volume.
Yes, Joseph Smith saw God the Father and his beloved Son, Jesus Christ. They were two persons, and their glory defied all description. Many prophets have seen and spoken with God. Moses saw and spoke to God face to face. "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend" (Exodus 33:11). I think that is pretty clear. The call of prophets and apostles is to be witnesses of God and his Son, Jesus Christ, and to give testimony of them.
Humanity will never be sufficient when left to itself. That is why God has promised that he will call, anoint, and send forth his chosen servants to preach repentance to the ends of the earth. There is no way to know the current will of the Lord without revelation through the Lord's anointed. Just as John the Baptist was called and sent forth to prepare and warn the people about the coming of the Lord in the meridian of time, so has Joseph Smith also been called and sent forth to establish the gospel of Jesus Christ upon the earth and prepare for the Second Coming of the Lord (Rev. 14:6).
Hesadanza,
If I understand your post, you are saying God and Jesus are not one? That you don't believe in the trinity? What about the below scriptures? These are only a few that support 3-in-1 and 1-in-3. Jesus, God, and The holy spirit are 3 and 1 at the same time. the trinity.
John 5:18
"18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."
John 8:58
"58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. "
John 10:30,33,38
"30I and my Father are one."
"33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
"38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Hesadanza,
Your ignorance regarding the Scripture profuses from both sides of your self contradictory professions. The reason why the "extra" scripture was not mentioned by Christ is because its heretical. The world has no need for a "false prophet" like Joseph Smith or any prophets. God's people already have the Revelation so the LDS has nothing new to offer.
I think its interesting that the LDS has been diligent in destroying the original publications of Joseph Smith's diary where he predicted the Second Coming of Christ with specific dates. He was a heretic who sought to create his own army of followers.
It's also interesting that Joseph claimed to have seen the Son and teh Father in bodily form when no man has ever made that claim. Not Moses and not the Apostle Paul. Jesus was perspicuous regarding His return. Moreover, the glorification of Jesus Christ and His ascention sent the Comforter to His people. The sending of the Holy Spirit was sufficient for all humanity until the Second Coming of Christ. So either Joseph Smith was the only one privy to the Second Coming of Christ or he is a liar. the Scriptures affirm the latter, hence Christ will appear in the clouds with glory and at that time, all creation will testify concerning His return, not one false prophet.
Hesadanza,
don't you think it curious that Jesus never mentioned this extra "scripture" the apostles never had it, the Jews never had it and still Don't have it today? So for 1800 years Christians were not privied to this extra "scripture" until this one man was righteous enough to recieve God's extra "scripture". I sure would think that Jesus would be righteous enough to have recieved the extra word.
I have got so much to say on this post. for starters....
Hesadanza,
God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, have appeared again beginning in the year 1820, as was prophesied anciently. The Father introduced Jesus as His Beloved Son. They appeared to man, both of them being exalted men of flesh and bones. Christ, Moses, Elijah, Peter, James, John, John the Baptist, and many others have appeared since then to establish the gospel once again on the earth, and reveal the will of the Lord Jesus Christ. And thus they have begun their marvelous work in preparation for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, who will rule and reign upon the earth for a thousand years. It is only in and through the name of Jesus Christ that we have any hope of being saved in the kingdom of God (2 Nephi 31:21).
above I have taken a snipet of your comment from 11/15/2007 16:25. You said Jesus appeared in 1820, then you go on to say we are waiting on his second coming. His first appearance was in flesh some 2000 years ago, I'm sure you'll agree. So then according to the LDS church the prophecy of his second coming has already been fullfilled in 1820 (according to your beliefs). But then you go on to say you're waiting for his second coming. Doesn't add up, don't you see how horribly wrong those two comments are. They are in complete oppoistion of one another.
Also, where in the bible does it say that the mighty men of the Bible you have mentioned, have came back? Curious how you rationalize that biblacly.
God doesn't follow the laws of the universe, he created them.
Well, Hesadanza, why don't we study it out together? Let's study the origin of the Book of Abraham. It will take courage, but if we work hard, I believe God will show us the truth.
Yet another reason why revelation is such a tantamount blessing in our day. It is by revelation that we can know the correct interpretation of scripture.
Yes. The Book of Abraham has been proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, to be a fraud by the people who would seek to destroy the work of the Lord. That is their job. To make anything and everything about the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints seem like a fraud, a lie, a deception. There are many who are seeking to prove the Bible to be a fraud too (Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens most recently). But this is not a surprise. It is to be expected of the Lord's work. Paul forewarned, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (2 Timothy 3:12).
The Book of Abraham is one of the most treasured revelations that God has given to mankind. It details our premortal, mortal, and post-mortal experience more than any other book of scripture. It clarifies beyond anything else the great questions of "where did I come from," "why am I here," and "where am I going after this life?" It has been shown extensively that it has ancient origins in the traditions of Abraham in Egypt, with countless ancient documents supporting its history and doctrine. This book is not a fraud, for it is the word of God, and all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable (2 Tim. 3:16). I can't understand how anyone could think that someone just made it all up in their head.
It amazes me the people I meet who refuse to accept more of the word of God. He wishes to give more of his word, to teach us something more about his great plan of salvation, to give us more details and bless us with more light and knowledge, and people immediately say, "No! Don't give me more! I've got the Bible. I don't need any more Lord." Do they forget that it was the Lord that gave them the Bible? The Lord has warned that those who reject his word, from them will be taken away even that which they have (2 Nephi 28:30).
Thank you for the clarification, but I do not agree with your interpretation of those verses.
I find it interesting that you cite the "Book of Abraham." That book has been proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, to be a fraud. I highly recommend www.bookofabraham.info which carefully, objectively, fairly and lovingly sets out the plain facts. There is no clearer issue for you to investigate.
Indeed, if you want more detailed info or discussion on the Book of Abraham, please feel free to email me at ftaggie AT yahoo DoT com, and I will be happy to discuss the issue.
We too believe that Jesus Christ was the Creator. We believe that all things were made by Christ, in Christ, and through Christ, under the direction of the Father (Moses 1:33).
Jesus Christ is a spirit son of God the Eternal Father. John does not say that the Word has always existed as a spirit. I don't see that written. It says the Word was with God in the beginning. That means he was in his company. For the numerous times that Christ addressed God as his Father, and the Father addressed Christ as his Son, it is hard to explain that he is anything other than a son of God, the Son of God, by which he also addressed himself many times (John 3:16; Matt. 16:13-16). Again, God has revealed his will today to living prophets and apostles of God who have taught us this truth and clarified these doctrines. That is the ultimate justification and need for mankind to have modern revelation to the Lord's chosen servants. Without this we are lost.
However, the fact that his spirit was born of the Father is not an indication that he did not exist prior to his spirit birth. Indeed, we have all existed forever, for we do not believe in creation ex nihilo (D&C 93:33). Something cannot be created out of nothing (even God follows the laws of the universe). Before we were born to our Father in Heaven we existed as "intelligences" (Abraham 3). "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be" (D&C 93:29).
Paul also tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance" (Gal. 5:22).
Hesadanza, I do not believe my witness is false as your post seems to confirm what I wrote.
John the Beloved wrote about Jesus, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
I understand that Mormons view Jesus as a created being - the first of many spirit children of God the Father. John the Beloved disagrees with this concept. Jesus was not created. He was ALWAYS with God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
In John 4:24, he writes that we must worship God in spirit and in truth. The truth is that Jesus is not a created being. John makes that clear. Is your understanding of John 1 different?
FT - You err in your interpretation of how we acknowledge Christ. You have greatly underestimated our belief in Christ. If you will not read the testimony and witness of the apostles, I will tell you how we acknowledge Christ.
Christ is the Son of God. Yes, a Son. He has a Father, and it is the same Eternal Father as you and I. It is our Heavenly Father. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." Christ is the God of the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, and the rest of scripture as has been revealed by Him. He is Jehovah. He is the firstborn of the Father. Christ was born of the virgin Mary. Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father. Christ is the Savior of mankind. He atoned for the sins of all in Gethsemane and on the cross of Calvary. He is the Atoner. His suffering for us was so intense that it caused him to bleed from every pore of his body (D&C 19:18, Luke 22:44). He redeemed man from the fall of Adam. As such, is the Great Redeemer. He was crucified by evil men, lay in the tomb for three days, and was resurrected with a body of flesh and bones. He still has this body of flesh and bones. He broke the bands of death for all mankind through his resurrection, which will enable all mankind, good or bad, to be resurrected. He organized his church when he was on earth in the flesh. He organized it with apostles, pastors, prophets, teachers, deacons, priests (Eph. 2:20). He ordained his duly appointed servants to the Melchizedek priesthood of God so they could officiate in the ordinances of the gospel including baptism (Heb. 5:6,10). Christ instituted ordinances since the foundation of this earth whereby we show our willingness to do what he has asked us to do, that we love him, and to be partakers of his atonement. God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, have appeared again beginning in the year 1820, as was prophesied anciently. The Father introduced Jesus as His Beloved Son. They appeared to man, both of them being exalted men of flesh and bones. Christ, Moses, Elijah, Peter, James, John, John the Baptist, and many others have appeared since then to establish the gospel once again on the earth, and reveal the will of the Lord Jesus Christ. And thus they have begun their marvelous work in preparation for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, who will rule and reign upon the earth for a thousand years. It is only in and through the name of Jesus Christ that we have any hope of being saved in the kingdom of God (2 Nephi 31:21).
That is how we acknowledge Jesus Christ. Please do not bear false witness.
GMG - yes we are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, but that is AFTER all we can do. James 2:24 tells us that it is by works that a man becomes justified before God, not in faith only. Just believing in Christ but not doing anything he asks you to do denies his atonement. He has asked us to fulfill his commandments in order to become partakers of salvation through his atonement. That is what the commandments are for. That is what covenants are for.
Hesadanza, let me add that I recently met two women who just joined my church. Both of them came independently from different LDS wards. My church is a non-denominational Bible church (www.pantego.org).
What was interesting was to hear these women talk about how they had only begun to know the Spirit - that it was the Spirit that was missing from the LDS church. Now, my church is not pentecostal or charismatic or anything like that. We don't stress spiritualism. We don't speak in tongues or "prophesy" or any of that stuff. But these women were OVERWHELMED with Christ's love when they really came to know the Gospel. I am so excited for them. I thought perhaps their story might be of interest. :-)
sorry, I don't know what happened with my post, but from the third line on is addressed to Hesadanza's comments.
Hesadanza, I can testify to you that the LDS church is false and is against the Word of God. The Holy Spirit has made this clear to me.
If we both have spiritual witnesses, how do we judge those spirits? John tells us that a Spirit which acknowledges Christ is of God. John also tells us that Christ was the Word which existed from the beginning. To acknowledge Christ, you must acknowledge who He is. The LDS church teaches that Christ was a created being, merely the first-born of many "spirit children" of God the Father. This is not an acknowledgment of Christ.
If we are to judge only by "fruits," then many churches qualify. Think of all the good done by the Baptists, for example.
Finally, we can test spirits by the facts. This is where the links I gave come in. I pray you will openly examine them.
Bot - But isn't it true that you believe that Christ's atonement is not 100% enough in and of itself for salvation, you also need works and temple ceremonies? Ae you saying the first century christian church taught that? And the bible also talks about people who fed the hungry, etc., and the Lord said "I never knew you", so that's only good works, which are always to be applauded but don't give us salvation. And I agree, focusing on any little differences as a matter of course is not in line with christian unity as taught biblically, but discerning biblically false doctrine is mandated. And one more thing - subjective "signs" is no proof of God's blessing. Doesn't your definition of "Word from the Holy Spirit" involve something along the lines of a burning in the chest? At the risk of sounding disrespectful, I can get that same feeling under a number of circumstances and they have nothing to do with God.
Hesadanza - the baptism of the dead may be a beautiful thing in some people's eyes, but I don't find it to be so biblically.
The spirit will also tell you what Christ also told us, "By their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt. 7:16-20). He also said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 17:7). Those are the true tests. The LDS Church has given almost $1 billion in humanitarian aid and assistance to the poor and needy around the world since 1985. Is that what Christ would do?
The truth is important. That is why I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ, so that I might know the truth. God is revealing his will today, and I want to know it. I have prayed to ask God if it be true, and he has witnessed to me by the Holy Spirit that it is true, and so I follow the Lord. God does not lie.
I have been a practicing member of the LDS Church for 26 years, I have lived the doctrine, studied it earnestly, and prayed about it, and I can testify to you that it is of God and not of man. No mortal mind could have conceived of it. It is His church. Christ organized it and leads it today. The Spirit of God has touched me too many times to deny it, and the Spirit testifies of truth.
Hesadanza, the Apostle Paul did not hesitate to correct the Jews of his day - despite their good intentions. In Romans 10, he wrote, "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge."
It is in this spirit that Christians seek to share truth with Mormons. I would encourage you to follow some of the links I provided and to openly investigate the LDS faith. All spirits must be tested, and in this case the facts show that the spirit behind Mormonism is false - no matter who well meaning and zealous for God that Mormons may be. Truth is important!
Krister Stendahl, Dean of Divinity Emeritus at Harvard University and Bishop Emeritus of Stockholm Sweden (Lutheran), once said (when speaking about the Mormons) that there are three rules that you should use in interfaith discussions and religious understanding:
1. When you are trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion and not its enemies. "Because what one religious tradition says about another is usually a breach against the commandment 'Thou shalt not bear false witness.'"
2. Don't compare your best to their worst, but compare bests with bests. "Most people think of their own tradition as it is at its best, and they use caricatures of the others."
3. Leave room for "holy envy." To this, Krister Stendahl said that the LDS practice of baptism for the dead is "a beautiful thing. I could think of myself as taking part in such an act, extending the blessings that have come to me in and through Jesus Christ. That's generous, that's beautiful, and should not be ridiculed or spoken badly of."
I wish there were more good Christians like Krister Stendahl in the world today - who don't focus on the negative, but on the positive - who don't seek out to destroy, but to edify - who don't put down, but build up - who want to BE Christian, rather than just say it in word. These are Christians, those who act as Christ would act, whose fruits you know them by, who love unceasingly, and support righteous causes wherever they may be. Those Christians actually follow the admonition of Paul, "whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things" (Philipians 4:8).
The facts about Mormonism are very important.
http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm
http://www.bookofabraham.info/
http://www.i4m.com/think/
The LDS believe that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones, and that he fathered Jesus by taking Mary as one of his wives through marital consumation. The bible teaches that God is spirit. LDS teaches that "as man is, God once was, as God is, man may become" or words to that effect. The bible teaches that God is eternally existent and unchanging. You may say that you believe in Jesus, but your definition of Jesus is not consistent with the bible, ergo you make a false claim when you say that you are "Christian", at least in the biblical sense. Shalom.
Mormons believe that Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of the world, so that we might attain salvation. Did you know that members of the church spend twice as much time studying the Bible, as they do the Book of Mormon; and they believe that the original Greek First Century version of the New Testament to be inerrant? The First Century Christian church has many similarities to the present-day Church of Jesus Christ (LDS). http://MormnonsAreChristian.blogspot,com
How can anyone accuse a church which believes strongly in First Century Christianity, to be anything other than "Christian"?
But don't you also believe that Jesus was the spirit child of god, and that god was man before he was god, and that god has a wife. And though you believe Jesus is the Savior, don't you also believe that in addition to Him you need good works and certain temple ceremonies to go to heaven. Also that you have several sources other than the bible in your belief structure.
I don't argue with your right to live your beliefs. I am simply stating that there are some real differences in foundational beliefs between the LDS and historical christianity.
I am a Mormon, a Latter Day Saint of the church of Jesus Christ, and I am Christian. I believe in Christ, and know that he is our Savior, Redeemer, and the only name under heaven by which we may be saved in the kingdom of God. We believe that anyone who worships Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of mankind is a Christian too, and would hope that all Christians would afford us the same respect.
I invite all who may question whether we are Christian to read the testimony and witness of the living prophet and apostles of Jesus Christ:
http://tinyurl.com/252sxk