Southern Baptist Leader Clarifies Alleged Romney Endorsement

By Michelle Vu|Christian Post Reporter

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Mormons are not Christians and Romney should be made to clarify his religion before Christians “jump on the Romney bandwagon,” Cizik added.

Yet it is unclear whether Romney will deliver a speech on his Mormon faith given that his advisers have discouraged such a move.

“I sort of like the idea myself,” said Romney when asked by a New Hampshire voter Saturday about delivering a speech to explain his Mormon faith, according to The Associated Press.

“[But] the political advisers tell me no, no, no – it’s not a good idea. It draws too much attention to that issue alone.”

However, Romney said Monday that he hasn’t delivered such a speech because he felt it has not become a political necessity, not simply because of his advisers’ counsel.

“I have some folks who think I should do it soon, some say later, some say never, some say right away," Romney said, according to AP. "I'll make the decision. But there's no particular urgency because I'm making progress in the states where I'm campaigning."

Last month, the former Massachusetts governor finished first at the Washington Values Voter Summit, narrowly beating former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee. Notably, however, while Romney won overall (online and onsite) by 30 votes (1,595 to 1,565), Huckabee had received 51.26 percent of the onsite votes in the summit’s straw poll compared to Romney’s 10.40 percent.

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Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:42 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Not only does 1 Peter 3:19 talk about Christ's visit to the spirit world to preach the gospel, but also 1 Peter 4:6 talks about the gospel being preached to the spirits who are dead - "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Those spirits do not get a second chance to live their life, but they do get a first chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, and accept it or reject it. And if they accept it, they must receive the ordinances of the gospel, including baptism (1 Cor. 15:29), as all ordinances must be performed before the resurrection and judgment.

Again, there is only a very tiny percentage of the people of this earth who have even had a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't believe that God is so unjust as to cast all the people who have not heard it to hell. God would be very very unjust and unmerciful God if that were the case. Probably 95% of the people who have lived on this earth have not even heard the name Jesus Christ. Is that their own fault? No! So what will happen to these people? The only way to be saved is in and through the name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ; there is no other way! These spirits will receive and hear the gospel in the spirit world, and there have opportunity to judge for themselves if they want to accept it or reject it. It is not a second chance; it is their FIRST chance!

Many have been confused and it has been hugely debated subject, but there is no need to be confused. You have not found anything or heard of anything about this before because it has been revealed anew in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Christ himself has made this subject perfectly clear in His church through his chosen servants, prophets and apostles. If you want to read what Jesus Christ has revealed on the subject, please read D&C 138.

There are many today that debate, are confused, and know not where to find the truth. This was prophesied anciently (Amos 8:11-12). What we must do then is to search out and find the true church of Christ, which is lead by Christ himself, to know the will of God. His church has been restored today through a chosen prophet, Joseph Smith.
Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:12 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

GMG - Ezekiel says the "stick of Joseph" when referring to the Book of Mormon because Lehi, who left Jerusalem around 600 BC to come to the Americas, was of the house of Joseph (1 Nephi 5:14). The entire history of the Book of Mormon came from Lehi, his family, and posterity, and thus they of of the house of Joseph.

There were many great cities, people, culture, and civilization in the Book of Mormon who lived here in the Americas. There is loads of evidence of ancient civilizations here in the Americas. Have you ever heard of the Mayans or Aztecs? Have you seen the great ruins of temples and city centers they built in Antigua Guatemala. Archeologists and anthropologists have found dozens of groups that have lived for thousands of years in the Americas. One of these groups could have easily been the group from the Book of Mormon.

Have you heard the ancient tradition of the great white bearded god Quetzalcoatl? He is considered among the indigenous people to be one of the most sacred Gods of the Aztecs. This God was none other than Jesus Christ himself when he visited the Americas after His death in Jerusalem, and is recorded plainly in the Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 11-28).

Joseph Smith knew he was of the tribe of Ephraim and Joseph through revelation, and when he was translating the Book of Mormon he found that it was prophesied there as well (2 Nephi 3:7).
Hesadanza »

Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:49 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

GMG,

I know we cannot be perfect in this mortal life. The only sinless one was Jesus Christ. But we can be perfect in fulfilling and complying with the ordinances of His gospel, including temple covenants. That is one area in which we can comply perfectly with what the Lord has asked us to do. They are required for salvation and exaltation. Our "continuing sacrifices" is our daily repentance, faithfulness, and enduring to the end. We are saved by grace, after all we can do, and that includes striving for perfection (2 Nephi 25:23). But there will come a time, after this mortal life, when we will be able to completely comply with Christ's command to "be ye therefore perfect," even as the Father.

Again, if you "love God" you will do everything else God has commanded you to do. That is why all the law and the prophets rest on those two great commandments, because they encompass them all. "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). We MUST follow the commandments. They are not optional, thus their name - commandments. We do not pick and choose which commandments we obey, and which ones we do not. God has commanded us to obey all of them, and if we do not, we must repent.

I'll say it again, we cannot be saved by the grace of God if we do not follow His commandments. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and THEY FOLLOW ME" (John 10:27). How do we follow Christ? We have faith in Him, repent of our sins, and obey His commandments, including the ordinances of His gospel found in His holy temples.
GMG »

Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:28 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Because of His forever "once for all" atonement", I am saved by grace, "but not of myself..." (those good works again) - there is NOTHING I can do to add to His perfect gift. No, we cannot just live any old way we choose, if we are then there is something wrong. Jesus said to Peter,
Do you love Me.....feed my sheep. We are back to His words on "Love..." I began my walk with Him as a baby, needing milk, we grow in His word as we walk with Him. Again, Galatians speaks well to grace.

Thank you for aswering my question about Joseph, the reason I asked if he believed he was of the tribe of Emphraim is it would fit with what you believe Ezekial is saying. That would explain why he said America was peopled by the lost tribe of Israel. But you never addressed the rest of my earlier question on this, that if this was so, and there were many great cities, why has no trace been found of them anywhere? And how did Joseph Smith know he was of this tribe?

Going back to the question of those who have died and whether they have another chance for decision, Heb 9:2 "it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement". I know you used the verses from Peter to show where Christ went to speak to the spirits, but that is a hugely debated issue as to what that really means as it is apparently considered one of the hardest to decipher passages in the Bible. Nowhere have I ever found anything, or even heard of anything before the explanation you presented of this passage, that there were any second chances. I still maintain that our lives here on earth are all we have to make our choices, the Bible and it's teaching underscores that very issue.
GMG »

Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:04 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hesadanza,

It IS impossible to fulfull the law. Heb. 10:1-3 talks about continual sacrifices because we are not perfect. That whole chapter follows the idea that man under law needed regular sacrifices for reoccuring sin. Vs.11-14 applies specifically to Christ's death as the final sacrifice - 14 "for by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." If we are forever perfected we can then stand in the sight of our righteous God through Jesus. Nothing else is required to make us righteous.

vs. 26-31 speaks to the fear of judgement under the law, but that the fear should be much greater should we scoff at Jesus' complete atonement.

The rest of the chapter deals, basically, with the difficulty of the new covenant (it was, after all, a big change), persecution, having endurance.

John 13:34-35 Jesus gives us a new commandment, "...love one another...by this all will know that you are my disciples..." This in a sense is the gist of all of His teachings, "Love God, love your neighbor as yourself" This is what I mean when I talk of that deep heart knowledge, how can you not follow in His footsteps.
Hesadanza »

Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:48 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

2 Nephi 29:7-8 is prophesying about the coming forth of the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Nephi knew that many would not accept new scripture after they had received the Bible.

The Lord did not just give His revealed word to those that were in Israel. He has revealed His will to all the inhabitants of the earth. To those in Jerusalem (Bible), and to those in America (Book of Mormon), and probably in other areas of the earth as well. The testimony of two nations is a witness that God is real and that He reveals His word unto all His children. All the revealed scripture testifies and bears witness of the veracity and genuineness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We should not murmur that God gives us more of His word, or that more than one nation has received His word.
Hesadanza »

Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:10 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Ezekiel 37:16-20 is talking about writings, not gatherings - "write upon it", "write upon it", "the sticks whereon thou writest". We definitely disagree on this point.

Joseph Smith was of the tribe of Ephraim. Why do you ask?

Yes, the "doeth" refers to Christ's teachings. Christ has instituted the ordinances of His gospel that are requisite for salvation in the kingdom of God, and if I comply with those ordinances then, yes, I am "completely righteous" as far as those ordinances go. I can be completely perfect in fulfilling the ordinances of Christ's gospel. There is only a handful of ordinances He has asked us to fulfill. They are not hard, nor impossible. I must then stay faithful, repent daily, and endure to the end, to be saved (2 Nephi 31:19-20). God's grace saves us when we do what God asks us to do.

It is not impossible to fulfill the law. Why would God give us a law we could not fulfill? "I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them" (1 Nephi 3:7).

Remember, even Christ commanded us to be perfect - "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). We are to strive for perfection every single day of our lives. Then, and ONLY then, will the grace of God save us.

Again, if you do not comply with the ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ, you cannot be saved (Matt. 16:16). The gospel of Jesus Christ does not give you license to do whatever you please and think that the grace of God will then save you because of some deep-down acceptance of Christ. Our actions MUST reflect our thoughts, desires, and beliefs.

Which quote from Nephi is unclear?
GMG »

Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:42 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I do not understand your quote from Nephi. It is clear that you are using it to verify your understanding of Ezekial, but the connection seems vague to me. Could you please expound on the connection?
GMG »

Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:32 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

If we say our salvation is based on the OT, then the NT salvation is invalid. And the other way around. Jesus did not "fulfill" the law (Matt 5:17) to put us under bond to somehow now require us to combine the OT and NT for salvation. No, as Paul so clearly illustrates, you pick your route of salvation - either OT righteousness (perfection) or NT grace. Since I cannot be perfect no matter how hard I try, then I pick grace. Being a child of God means I strive to follow in Jesus' footsteps, with His help and guidance, no matter how often I fall short. Paul talked about how he struggles with himself to follow Jesus - all His children do. But by grace I am saved.
GMG »

Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:17 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I must disagree with you on Ezekial. Vs. 18 asks what 16 & 17 mean, and what follows is the explanation.

Did Joseph Smith think he had a connection with Ephraim?

On Matt 7:21 - Matthew chpts. 5-7 was the Sermon on the Mount, and the doeth refers to the
teachings Jesus was outlining. 7:28-29 refers to these "sayings", which were a type of ethical standard. This is not to say Jesus' authority was not complete (5:7-20); we are not to view these as mere suggestions. However we know that "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23), so we know also complete righteousness is impossible to achieve and impossible to save us (Matt 5:20). We are back to the impossibility of fulfilling the law and the gift of grace covered so thoroughly in Galatians (and others too). And Jesus fulfilling the law (Matt 5:17) which takes us back to grace.
Hesadanza »

Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:52 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I disagree about Matt 7:23. Christ was talking about those who professed a belief in Him, yet did nothing about it. It is a separate paragraph and thought from the previous thought of false prophets, although it is along the same general topic of disbelief. Let's go back to verse 21 -

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Notice the qualification? He that "DOETH" the will of the Father. Belief alone is a good first step, but it is not sufficient for salvation. Indeed, these had a belief that was SO deep that they claimed to be able to do miracles in the name of Christ. Yet Jesus taught us that we must DO the will of Heavenly Father. If not, we will never come to know them, and we wil not be saved.

Again, in verse 24 and 26, "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock... And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH THEM NOT, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand" (emphasis added).

The works of Christ are required for salvation, and that includes EVERY ordinance of His gospel which He has established for that purpose. There IS, in fact, a checklist of ordinances of the gospel with which we must comply in order for the grace and mercy of Christ to have full effect in our lives and bring us to salvation and exaltation in the kingdom of God. If we do not comply with even one of His ordinances, we cannot be saved. Baptism is one of them (Matt. 16:16). Even Christ had to comply with the requirements of baptism in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Matt. 3:15 emphasis added; 2 Nephi 31:5-7).

If we truly accept Christ, deep inside as you say, we will DO what he has commanded us to DO. Faith alone is dead, as it gets us nowhere by itself. Faith should prompt those who have it to fulfill ALL the commandments of the Lord.
Hesadanza »

Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:34 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Ezekial's prophecy about the two "sticks" of Judah and Joseph is not to be combined with the prophecy following it of the gathering and cleansing of Israel. They may be illustrative of one another, which is why they were probably written together, but they are NOT one and the same prophecy. They are two separate prophecies. One is about writings, and the other is about gatherings.

Yes, I also believe that each book of scripture is true. And yes, each book of scrtipure testifies and validates every other book of scripture. But that does not mean we pick and choose one body of scripture and throw away the rest. We use it all, and every book of scripture testifies of the truth of the other.

"Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also" 2 Nephi 29:7-8).
GMG »

Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:03 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

In Matt 7:23 Jesus was talking about false prophets and knowing them by their fruits, and when they said "Lord, Lord..." He said "I never knew you". He was not talking about believers. I believe we are sanctified for good works, and that for the love of the Lord we can't help but gravitate that way, but good works don't save us, nor are they required for salvation; as Paul says "and not of ourselves..." If good works saved us, than we would need a checklist of exactly how much is enough for salvation.

Believing Christ is who and what He says He is, in our heads, will never save us - Satan believed it, knew it to be a fact. It's a heart knowledge, an acceptance deep inside. When we receive him then we receive the Spirit.
GMG »

Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:46 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I know that you don't believe Ezekial's prophecy was for a united Israel, but if you go past vs. 20 that is what it says. Do you believe that Joseph Smith is a descendent of Ephraim? This is the thought that occurred to me when I asked if you believed the lost tribe of Israel came to America.

I think we are using different meanings for "stand alone" My meaning was that each book stands alone in it's veracity, which I agree is not the same as total teaching. When Jesus came he came with a new covenant, for the jewish people from that time on and for the gentiles. His sacrifice and atonement fulfilled the old law, "old things have passed away". And of course all scripture is good for teaching...as the OT verifies the authority of NT through it's prophecy of the Christ, who was Jesus. Of course, it also validifies the teachings of Christ, and He often referred to the OT. But Jesus also fulfilled the office of the priesthood. And Paul tells us that we are no longer under the law, but under grace. Galatians is pretty much devoted to that teaching.
Hesadanza »

Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:12 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

GMG - We don't believe that Ezekiel's prophecy had to do with reuniting divisions of Israel, especially since the word used for "stick" in Hebrew literally means "wood". He was speaking about writings and scriptures. Back in Ezekiel's day the people wrote on long scrolls and those scrolls were then wrapped around a wooden pole or "stick". Hence, when he says "stick" he is actually saying the writings and scriptures of Judah and Joseph.

No, any one book of the Bible can't stand alone. If we only had one book of the Bible, let's say Obadiah, for example, we would get absolutely nowhere in our study of the gospel. Obadiah has twenty-one verses. What would we know about Christ's atonement from twenty-one verses? What would we know about God's plan of salvation from twenty-one verses? What would we know about the life of Christ, his example, his teachings from twenty-one verses? Hardly anything. No, the Lord meant us to use ALL scripture, all revealed word, together. "ALL scripture is given by inspirtion of God, and is profitable for doctrine..." Any one book cannot stand alone.

I agree that we are saved through faith, and by the grace and mercy of God. We don't "earn" salvation by our works, per say. But again, if we have faith in Christ, and love Him, we will obey His commandments and ordinances which He has instituted. ALL of them. For exapmle, if I am not baptized, I will be damned (Matt. 3:15; Luke 7:30; John 3:5; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:48; Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Ether 4:18; 3 Nephi 11:33-34; D&C 84:74; D&C 112:29). Why? Because it is a required ordinance of the gospel of Jesus Christ that He has made so that we may enter into His fold and receive a remission of our sins. By obeying God, and following His commandments, we don't "earn" our salvation, but we place ourselves in a state of grace whereby Christ may then justify us before the Father and we may be saved. If not, we will not be justified. Without works our faith is dead, and Christ will look at us at the judgement day and say, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt. 7:23). We must have works, the works that Christ has asked of us, to even think that we are considered His. The works are required. If we don't have works, it is all just lip service. The commandments are NOT optional! They never have been. And God commands us to fulfill all the ordinances of His gospel.
GMG »

Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:10 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Oh yes, I most definitely believe that if we love the Lord we will listen and follow His word, the simplest way to look at this is Jesus command to "...Love God...and love your neighbor..." That pretty well sums it up. And James' whole focus was to explain how this works. Eph 2:8-10 says "For by grace you have been saved through FAITH, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS lest anyone should boast, for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
The whole point is that we do His will not to earn anything, as it is already mine, but rather to show whom I love. The same is true of baptism - it doesn't save me, it is the proclamation that I have been saved and that I belong to Him.

Our mouths can say anything, and say it very convincingly at times. But my actions, those are the things that are the final verification of what my mouth is saying.
GMG »

Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:57 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hesadanza,

The scriptures you listed from Ezekial have to do with a prophecy that the northern and southern divisions of Israel will be reunited as one nation. Which brings something else to mind, don't you believe that America was peopled by the lost tribe of Israel (or something along that line) with great cities and the like? But no ruins have ever been found, and all of our state-of-the-art satellite imagery has yet to show anything that hints at it.

And I don't agree that any book of the Bible can't stand alone. When he said that "all scripture is useful.....he was simply referring to the fact that all scripture verifies all other scripture, that taken as a whole if clarifies the whole Word. As humans we can be rather dense and stubborn.
Hesadanza »

Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:16 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

ForHim - Cute. Maybe if you want to have a real discussion instead of reading the comics you can come back and have one with us.

By the way, real Christians decide that they are going to follow Christ also and do the things that he has asked us to do, not only "believe" in Him. That is only the first step. They will also be baptized as a witness before God that they are willing to follow Christ and receive a remission of their sins through His atonement. Will anyone please read James 2? Faith without works is dead. I cannot just believe something in my head and then go and do all kinds of awful acts and expect to be saved, or expect to call myself Christian! My acts must reflect my belief in Christ. I must actually DO what he has asked us to DO. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Christ was not joking when he said this.

We don't just use the Bible to support us because God has revealed more of His word. That would be like only using the New Testament and forgetting the Old Testament. No. We use ALL the revealed word of God. "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16). No book of scripture can stand on its own. That is why God has given us more of his word. We've been instructed by the Apostle Paul that ALL scripture is profitable for doctrine.

Might be interesting for you to know that the Book of Mormon was prophesied to come forth in the Bible. In Ezekiel 37:16-20. The sticks referred to wooden writing tablets which were the common stock of writing material used in Ezekiel's day. The stick of Judah is the Bible, for it originated in the land of the Jews. The stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon, for it originated in the land of the Americas were there lived a branch of the house of Joseph. And they are one in my hand today.
GMG »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:36 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Sorry Hesadanza, too late now for my brain to function, will address what you've said tomorrow.
ForHim »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:27 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0061/0061_01.asp
Hesadanza »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:40 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

FT - I watched the so-called "documentary" on the Book of Abraham and, once again, it is false on many counts.

You know how I can tell it is not a respectful, fair, and well-done documentary? They did not mention Hugh Nibley's research on the Book of Abraham. Nope. They didn't even mention his name! Not a word. Since the Church specifically commissioned Hugh Nibley to research and write about the recovered papyri, don't you think it a little suspicious that they didn't even say a word about what Hugh Nibley has written about it? Did they say a word about the 609 page volume that Hugh Nibley wrote on the subject? No.

I would refer you to "The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment" by Hugh Nibley, which has just been republished in a second edition in 2005. If you are serious about studying the origins and content of the papyri, I recommend this book.

The very first words of this book read, "This book had to be written because a great fuss was being made about a scrap of papyrus. Some people were endlessly dinning into the ears of the public that what was written on that small and battered strip proved beyond a doubt that Joseph Smith was a fraud because he thought that it contained the Book of Abraham, whereas it contains nothing of the sort. But who said he thought so? They did. . . How on earth could Joseph Smith or anybody else have derived a condensed and detailed account of fifty pages from fewer than twenty hieratic signs? . . . Is the Book of Abraham a correct translation of Joseph Smith Papyri XI and X? NO, the Book of Breathings is not the Book of Abraham! Does it pretent to be? No, it was never put forward as such."

Yet the critics still, and have for 40 years, have tried to make us believe that the papyri that was recovered is beyond question the source of the Book of Abraham. Is it too much to ask that the papyrus rolls that contained that magnificent book have NOT actually been recovered?

At least five papyrus documents, including two or more rolls, were sold to Joseph Smith. What was recovered in 1967? Several badly damaged fragments of papyri. Only about 13 percent of all the papyri that Joseph Smith possessed is still extant. The critics get a hold of that 13 percent, translate it, and proudly declare that Joseph Smith is a fraud. Do you see the problem here? It is pure unadulterated deception.
Hesadanza »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:51 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

GMG - Ephesians 2:20 and Ephesians 4:11 have reference to offices in the church that Christ himself established upon the earth when he was here in the flesh. If we are to believe there exists this same church upon the earth today, it would have to have the same offices that Christ established in his church in the meridian of time.

Let me try to explain vicarious work for the dead. The ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ are required for salvation and exaltation. There is NO exception. It is ONLY in and through the name of Jesus Christ that we are saved. However, only a very small percentage, let's say 0.00001%, of the earth's population since its creation have even heard the name of Jesus Christ. So how does God's justice account for these people? God's justice would not cast all these people into hell for not knowing Christ. They were ignorant of anything and everything about Christ, but it was not their fault.

Every man and woman who has lived on the face of this earth MUST have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ's gospel. That is God's justice. That is his love for all mankind. If they accept it, they must have the opportunity to enter into the ordinances and covenants of His gospel. Again, these are required for salvation and exaltation.

Those who have died without any knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ will have the opportunity to learn about it in the spirit world. Christ himself visited the spirit world, after his death, for that very purpose (1 Pet. 3:18-20). Why would Christ go to preach to the spirits in the spirit world unless they had some kind of opportunity to accept his gospel? It was not vain preaching. If they want to accept his gospel there, they must enter into the covenants and ordinances of the gospel. Christ instituted these covenants and ordinances. But these ordinances require a physical body to perform. You cannot baptize a spirit, for instance. So members of Christ's church here on earth perform vicarious ordinances for, and in behalf of, the dead in temples, the House of the Lord. Those spirits in the spirit world can either accept or reject those ordinances performed in their behalf. They still have their agency.

Does that help?
GMG »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:24 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

ep1433, ok, glad we kissed and made up! :)

I agree there are plenty of people who have never heard of Christ, there are even some who have never even heard of a Bible, let alone read one in any form. But God said that he put knowledge of Himself in our hearts, and somewhere it says that we are basically responsible for the extent of the knowledge availble to us (words to that effect). I know of no place that says what He's going to do with those who have no knowledge of Christ, but if I believe that He is really a just God, which I most definitely do, then I believe He will only hold those people responsible for choices made based on the heart knowledge He has given to all of us. The Bible repeatedly talks about making choices, and you must be alive and functioning in order to do that. Consequences are based on those choices. Those who are dead have run out of time for choices - that also seems crystal clear biblically.

The Bible also has a number of things to say about the dead, beyond judgement. It makes it very clear that the dead are dead, leave them alone. I can talk about the witch of Endor, but it could be argued that that only applied to direct communication with the dead. What about the man who wanted to go back and tell his family that God was truly there, but was told that they have the word of Moses to tell them (sorry, I confess I'm not as good as I should be in quoting chapter and verse). Now I know we could come up with all kinds of reasons why a bunch of these things really don't apply specifically to what we are talking about here, but like I said, the Bible seems to indicate that dead is dead. So, where does it indicate otherwise?
Hesadanza »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:18 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

GMG - you're welcome. I hope I can answer the questions you have.

One of our articles of faith states “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”

The ordinances required for salvation and exaltation include the following:
* baptism
* confirmation
* priesthood ordination (men only)
* initiatories - washings and anointings
* endowment
* sealing

The authority of the Aaronic Priesthood including the authority to baptize was restored by John the Baptist, by the laying on of hands, to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in Harmony, Pennsylvania, on May 15, 1829.

The authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood including the authority of confirmation, priesthood ordination, and to officiate in the other ordinances of the priesthood was restored by Peter, James, and John, by the laying on of hands, to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery near the Susquehanna River between Harmony, Pennsylvania, and Colesville, New York, in May or June, 1829.

The priesthood keys of the gathering of Israel were restored by Moses to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in Kirtland Ohio, on April 3, 1836.

The priesthood keys of the gospel of Abraham, or Abrahamic covenant, including celestial marriage, were restored by Elias, to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in Kirtland Ohio, on April 3, 1836.

The priesthood keys of the sealing power of all ordinances were restored by Elijah to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in Kirtland Ohio, on April 3, 1836.

Others have appeared in modern times to restore keys including Adam (Michael), Abraham, Moroni, Noah (Gabriel), Raphael, Lehi, Nephi, Mormon, and many others. Elder McConkie once wrote, "Every key, power, and priesthood ever held by a mortal on earth has been restored. All such came to Joseph Smith and his associates and these keys are now vested in the First Presidency and the Twelve."
FT »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:14 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

ep1433, I have had LDS friends correct me on many aspects of the LDS faith, and I have accepted their correction. For example, I once thought there was an error in the Book of Mormon as it said Christ would be born in Jerusalem. A Mormon explained to me that Bethlehem and Jerusalem are very close to each other and that "Jerusalem" could encompass Bethlehem. Based on how he explained it, I thought it was reasonable, and I accepted the explanation. I stood corrected and withdrew that criticism.

Let me also say that it is very, very hard for some people to examine things with an open mind. I know a very smart man who just has a massive blind spot when it comes to Jewish people. He is anti-Semitic, and he cannot see how such views warp his objectivity.

I confidently advocate my views, but I also listen. I hope you would expect no less of me.
ep1433 »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:22 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

GMG - Here is a direct quote "At the risk of sounding disrespectful, I can get that same feeling under a number of circumstances and they have nothing to do with God." Certainly seemed like you were implying something much more trite than the a spiritual mainfestation. I guessed indigestion. My bad. Maybe you meant heartburn :-) Kidding.

GMG I realize we don't need to agree here. I wasn't aking issue with disagreement I was taking issue with a tone that IMO too often seems smug and pious. But thanks for responding to my statement. I'll be hapy to take you at your word.

May I jump in and respond to your question to Hesadanza? You said "And I'm really confused by your assertion that God commands you to perform vicarious works for the dead - if they didn't exercise free will in their own lifetime by accepting Christ's sacrifice, performing good works, and going through temple ceremonies, how can they be saved after death?"

No need to be confused GMG. A small percentage of the earths population from all time has learned of Christ's sacrifice for them. This is just a statistical fact. Billions have lived and dies without so much as hearing the term Christ. Vicatious baptims provides for them and others to accept Christ. What do you think happens to such individuals?

Hesadanza, sorry but I may have assumed incorrectly that you are female. Somehow I got that impression. I guess I should stick with "they" rather than "he/she".

And BTW, can't someone PLEASE respond to my points about how the Bible was compiled and why the canon was never intended to be closed. I made them a few pages back. Or can I assume you all agree?
GMG »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:08 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hesadanza - thanks for directly answering my questions.

I don't have very much time right now so just let me ask you a few more questions, and I'll get back to you with some thoughts later on.

What are the ordinance of Jesus Christ, and who restored them, and from where?
What makes you certain these prophets and apostles are called by God, and give God given revelation? Previoiusly you cited Eph. 2:20, but this refers to the OT prophets and NT apostles, and Paul is talking about the new covenant including both OT jews and NT gentiles, so I'm not sure how this applies to some of the points you have tried to make.
And I'm really confused by your assertion that God commands you to perform vicarious works for the dead - if they didn't exercise free will in their own lifetime by accepting Christ's sacrifice, performing good works, and going through temple ceremonies, how can they be saved after death?

and to epl433 - I did NOT compare manifestations with indigestion, I simply said there were a number of ways I could get a burning in the chest. Many emotions, and situations that cause an emotional response, can cause this feeling. I'm not plagued by indigestion, so it wasn't even on my mind. These forums are for the exchange of ideas, not necessarily agreement.
ep1433 »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:02 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

FT - The point is, would see it as worthwhile to debate someone who also thought that the movie The Matrix was real? Or someone who felt that some races are inferior. Or someone who thought that God does appear on tortillas? So my frustration is bourne out of the fact that I am trying to hold a sincere debate with someone who presupposes he can know the thoughts and intents of my heart. How are we ever going to get anywhere with soemone who holds an opinion that a simple appeal to logic would render IMPOSSIBLE. It certainly speaks to your an bias that toward the LDs that I see as completely insurmountable.

And I have faced this in real life. I work with a guy who, when we met, kindly told me he thought my religion is false. I thought he might have been sincere until I found out that he also believes certain races are inherently bad. So now it's pretty obvious the guy isn't a sincere critic. He's just a bigot and a crackpot.

I'm just hoping to one day find a sincere critic so we can have an honest, open, obejective duiscussion.
ep1433 »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:49 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

FT - Yes, your comments did make me throw a fit. You said:

" Although this might make ep1433 thow a fit ;-) I know you have NOT investigated as you claim. You either did not look hard enough, or you did not look with an open mind. "

So Hesadanza, beware, FT has an ability beyond any human being to read and perceive your thoughts. FT, maybe we should send you to Washington so you can help the government discern the thoughts and feeling of the terrorists.

FT that you say such things isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is such comments prove you completely incapable of objectivity. And objective individual trying to understand and learn wold not make such a sweeping assumption in complete ignorance of facts.

It makes it all to easy to dismiss critics when they begin with an assumption of either stupidity ("you either have NOT investigated") or insincerity ("or you didn't have an open mind") on the part of their adversary.

Now any fool knows that FT has NO WAY of knowing such things. Had he said "In my opinion, I think you haven't studied this" he could at least remain on logically sound ground. But to claim to "know" anoters heart is rediculous.

The question then becomes, "why does he say such things if they are unknowable?". In other words if it is IMPOSSIBLE to know the thoughts and intents of Hesadanza's heart unless you are God, why still claim to know them. If FT claims HE DOES know such things, he is either 1.) lying or 2.) trying to manipulate and score debate points by making confident statements that can never be proved or disproved. I suppose there is a third possibility. FT are you God?

Now FT is a lawyer so I could make a joke about knowing he is lying by his lips moving but I'll refrain. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and just asssume he is trying to be manipulative.

FT, you claim I get too angry about such stuff. But should't I be able to hold a Christian to a standard of intellectual honesty and sincerity?

What I see when we debate here is not overt sins of swearing or harsh blatantly unkind words (or at least not often). No, that would be obviuosly un-Christian. Evangelicals maintain their piety by simply lobbing insincere, smug comments at the LDS and think such covert attacks allow them to maintain their pious status. I'm sorry but I think your words betray your hearts. But that's just my opinion.
ForHim »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:43 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

All,

I have an idea. Since the Christians (that is, those that believe all is required for salvation is to humble themselves before Jesus Christ and admit it is only through His precious blood are we saved) and the LDS folks both claim to believe the bible how about only using it to support their assertions. If any book is inspired it can stand alone and can prove the other book without using it. In other words, a Christian can witness to a Jew only using the Old Testament to point them to Christ. Can a LDS member do the same with just the Old and New Testament???
Hesadanza »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:27 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

How could I find more in a church which doesn't have the restored ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ? How could I find more in a church which doesn't possess the authority of the priesthood of God, God's authority to preach the gospel and perform ordinances? How could I find more in a church which doesn't have temples wherein we learn the will of God, and perform His ordinances? How could I find more in a church which doesn't have living prophets and apostles who have been called by God to lead and guide it by revelation? How could I find more in a church which doesn't read, study, and live all of the revealed word of God? How could I find more in a church which doesn't believe in God's justice whereby He commands us to perform vicarious work for the dead? How could I find more in a church which does not have Jesus Christ at the head?

I could not.
FT »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:09 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hesadanza, of course I have not been with you, but I have talked to many former LDS who experienced and lived all that you describe. And yet these same people discovered a higher and better Truth! They were not offended. They were living the LDS gospel, but they found so much more!! These men and women have experienced the Spirit of grace, and they testify that there is no comparison!

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.
Hesadanza »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:40 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

FT - I have investigated thoroughly and with an open mind the church of which I have been a part for 26 years. That's all I do. I might even know a bit more about Mormonism than you do, believe it or not. I choose not to spend all my time studying anti-Mormonism because I know it is saturated with evil. Why would I want to study evil? When I have studied it, I have found it full of error - gross, dark, error, and lies, which tends to destroy faith, and speaks evil of the Lord's anointed. The author of it is the devil. I choose to study the gospel, which is full of light, truth, love, peace, and the Spirit. The author is God.

How can you say, "I know you have NOT investigated as you claim"? Have you been by my side as I've prayerfully studied the scriptures and felt the Spirit? Do you know the hundreds of books I've read? Have you been with me when I've prayed earnestly to know the truth and had it manifest to me by the power of the Holy Ghost? Have you sat with me in sacrament meeting, or sunday school, or priesthood meeting as I have felt the sweet impressions of the Spirit wash over me? Did you go on my mission with me as I witnessed the faith of thousands of people in a foreign land, who accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and entered the waters of baptism clothed all in white? Have you prayed with investigators of the Church and felt the Spirit witness the truth of the gospel to them? Have you traveled the world over with me, meeting the Saints in 12 different countries, and seeing the strength of the membership of the Church, their humility, service, sacrifice, and testimony? Have you been with me while I've listened to General Conference for the last 26 years and each time felt the Spirit as the Lord's prophet and apostles have addressed us, and felt that their calling was from God? Have you served with me in church callings and felt the promptings of the Spirit as I have done what He has asked me to do? Have you attended the holy temple with me, hundreds of times, and each time being overcome with feelings of love, joy, peace, and thanksgiving to God and His Son, Jesus Christ, for the blessings of priesthood ordinances? Have you shaken the hands of the apostles, and been in the presence of a prophet of God? Have you witnessed the Lord's anointed speaking with the gift of tongues? Have you witnessed miracles performed by the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood of God? Have you been overcome with thanksgiving when the windows of heaven have been opened and blessings have been poured out by the paying of tithing to the Lord's church?

No. You have not. You have not done what I have done, not seen what I have seen, and have not felt what I have felt. You are in no better position to say that I have not investigated The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than my next door neighbor.
FT »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:49 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hesadanza, I have not misinterpreted you. You have not answered the question yet.

I know several LDS who used to bear their testimony just as you have done here. "I know the church is true. I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet. I know Gordon B. Hinckley is a prophet." These were faithful members who were returned missionaries, who tithed and lived as righteously as any member in your ward. They were in the scriptures and in prayer - and yet they openly inquired, and prayed - and they learned that their testimony was false.

Now, I know there are "gentiles" who join the LDS church. Both the former "gentiles" and the former Mormons believe they have spiritual discernment. So, where does that leave one? My view is that one must investigate thoroughly and with an open mind. Although this might make ep1433 thow a fit ;-) I know you have NOT investigated as you claim. You either did not look hard enough, or you did not look with an open mind. I know that might sound harsh or arrogant, but I would rather be direct with you than mislead you. My God guide you in all truth.
Hesadanza »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:34 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

GMG - we might know we are feeling the spirit in several different ways. (In no particular order, and there is overlap):

First - the fruit of the Spirit is "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith" (Gal. 5:22).

Second - "Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart" (D&C 8:2).

Third - "he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things" (Moroni 10:4-5).

Fourth - by a still small voice (1 Kgs. 19:12; 1 Ne. 17:45; D&C 85:6).

Fifth - "But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right" (D&C 9:8).

Sixth - "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4).

Those are some of the ways that we receive spiritual manifestations.

Yes, the temple ceremonies are a requirement for salvation. The priesthood ordinances of the temple have been established from the foundation of this earth to bring mankind back into the presence of God. They are the ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and he established them for a reason. They are not optional, just as baptism is not optional. In the temple we make covenants with Heavenly Father. They are a witness to God that we will do what he says, and obey his commandments. That is why we do vicarious work for the dead in the temple, so that ALL may have justice before the Father, even those who never heard the name Jesus Christ while in their mortal life.
Hesadanza »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:19 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

FT, I think you have misinterpreted me. I know that the LDS Church is true. I don't need to read 10,000 false accusations to try and convince myself otherwise. I know they are false. I have studied them, and found them wanting in the extreme. I thank God that I have been blessed with the gift of discernment, and I can tell the difference between truth and error. The attacks the skeptics put out could not be more dripping with error. The feeling I get when I read that stuff is one of grossness, and darkness. It is intensely gross how vile and disgusting the attacks are. That is not of God. That is of the devil, and he deceives the hearts of men (Alma 5:40; Moroni 7:12; Omni 1:25).
FT »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:00 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

ep1433, buddy, you remind me of "Mr. Furious" from "Mystery Men." ;-) Simmer down just a bit!

The "would you want to know" question is serious, and it is a good starting point for discussion. There are people of many faiths who are just content with their faith and would NOT want to know if their faith is true. They are happy, and that is all that matters. If that is how Hesadanza feels, then there is no point in going further. It would be a waste of my time, and it would be unfair to him.

Finally, of course I compare myself to Paul - not that I am like him - but as I try to emulate Christ through Paul's example. We hope to become more like Christ, and Paul gives a good example of a well lived life.

Good luck against the Nittany Lions.
ep1433 »

Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:01 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

The kicker is this, you Evangelical folks don't think we are spending eternity together (as I'm LDS) and I'll I can say to that is A-frickin men! And if I won't be around you then it must be heaven where I am going to be.

I am sorry. I realize this rant is a bit childish but seriously folks, I have never seen such a bunch of smug comments in my life. The condescension is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

Let’s review your very “Christian” behavior:

Summathetes: “Your ignorance regarding the Scripture profuses from both sides of your self contradictory professions.”

Topekan has apparently decided HE is capable of determining if Hesadanza believes in Christ or not after reading all of one posting wherein she said she believed in Christ.

GMG then compared Hesadanza’s claimed manifestations of the Holy Ghost with indigestion.

Servent then referred to a sincerely provided quote about our faith in Christ that Hesdanza offered as “LDS babble”. Wow, thanks for the consideration servant.

FT found it fitting to compare such efforts as you are each making with Paul (not McCartney by the way).

Is it possible my little rant here is just as snide as some of your comments? Perhaps, but you’re definitely giving me a run for my money. But if any of you are hoping to represent your faith well, you have failed miserably. Hesadanza tried repeatedly to respond to questions with sincere responses. And again and again you ignored the responses and moved on to other questions. IMO your responses with an unnecessarily smug and completely lacking in sincerity.

FT – you couldn’t even be original at all. You practically lifted your comments verbatim from other discussions with me! I am telling you it was eerie how similar your words are. Are you sure you aren’t Borg or something.

So go ahead and turn your very pious noses up at me and ignore my comments. I’m sure you won’t take them to heart. I may be a jerk, but if you folks are the ones holding the keys to true Christianity then methinks someone needs a designated driver.
ep1433 »

Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:11 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

FT - Why do you say garbage like "If the LDS church was not what it claims to be, would you want to know?" That is the faith debate equivalent of playground taunts. It is the kind of junk that is used to influence weak minded individuals. Plastic banana, that's what it is. Total wax fruit stuff. Artificial, ya know?

It's just posturing for debate points. If you are sincere in your discussion and exercising any amount of objectivity you would also be willing to consider that YOU may be the one who is wrong. But more importantly, the statement is meant to imply that some fools out there would rather be a part of something knowing it was false. How condescending!

If you are the least bit objective you would realize that in every faith there are those who are knowledgeable, those who are sincere, those who are intelligent and faithful. The LDs faith has many such members but at the same time does not hold a monopoly on such people. Many Evangelicals are of the same ilk. And yet in both faiths there are those who are ignorant to their beliefs and still faithul and there are even some who probably do not believe but still claim the faith. But statements like yours make me think you must see the LDS differently. Which makes you not only seem un-objective, but also unfair, unkind, and unintelligent (methinks I may be off FT's Christmas card list now).

I can't imagine anyone who can look inside their heart and honestly think that a faith of millions of members contains either fools or liars and not a intelligent and faithful person among them. Such thinking completely strains logic.

Sorry, I just call em as I seem.
GMG »

Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:33 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hesadanza - I notice that you refer again to a personal manifestation by the Holy Spirit. You never did answer my question as to what form this manifestation takes. I also asked if temple ceremonies were a part of the requirement for salvation.

Could you please address these items for me.
ep1433 »

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:48 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

And FYI, I was referring to the posts I made earlier about the colelction of books that ios the Bible. But again I'll bet my lunch money no of you even touch it.
ep1433 »

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:47 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hesadanza - I would warn you not to waste your breath with some of these folks. If you make a valid point (as I feel I have done below) it will be completely ignored. They love to claim that "mormons are afraid of the truth". What is it Evangelicals are afraid of in responding to valid, substantive points like those I made below?

FT might be an exception but even he has a bit of a one track mind regarding the Book of Abraham. FYI,no fear FT, I'm still working on a response. Seems you didn't like my joke though.

It's all just a silly little game called "try to stump the Mormon". Funny thing is, I rarely find any of these questions challenging (FT's BoA stuff being an exception) and I would consider myself only moderately knowledeable about esoteric LDS doctrines. Many LDS folks I know are much more informed. And oddly enough some the Evangelicals here seem to be extremely well informed about these same esoteric LDS doctrines.

FT, the thing about your Lectures on Faith comment is that if Joseph Smith had made contrary comments in other scources wouldn't it be reasonable to assume he was misquoted? Those lectures are typically written by scribes and are not canonized LDS doctrine (perhaps for very apparent reasons). There is nothing nefarious here. It seems you're simly stretching to make an invalid point based in obscure records. Why refer to them at all?
Hesadanza »

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:23 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I will watch the "documentary", but I doubt that it will provide anything new as far as criticisms, falsehoods, lies, and deceptions. It is hard to kick against the pricks.
FT »

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:26 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Thanks for your replies.

Let me note first that there is much NEW to learn about the Book of Abraham. Renowned Egyptologist Robert Ritner has published some work (http://humanities.uchicago.edu/depts/nelc/facultypages/ritner/index.html).

I would also great encourage you to watch this very well done, award-winning documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

It is new, and it is compelling. It is also fair and handled respectfully. It is well worth your time.
Hesadanza »

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:06 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Again, he was a "personage of spirit", he was not just a spirit. He never said the Father did not have a physical body, or a tabernacle. We are all personages of spirit, for we all have a spirit clothed with a tabernacle of flesh. Jesus is a personage of spirit too. I don't think Joseph Smith changed his mind.
Hesadanza »

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:03 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Islam is not a Christian religion, although they do much good.

What Christian religion has faced more persecution than the LDS Church?

I have already studied the Book of Abraham origins, and I continue to study them. I have read through all of the so-called "facts" of the book given by the critics, and they are false. Do a little more studying, and you'll find they are false too, fabrications of evil, conspiring men.

I do not want to study the Book of Abraham with you because you will just give me all the same old criticisms that the skeptics have been giving for the last 187 years. They cannot come up with anything new, and I cannot idle away my time reading such foolishness. Church scholars have already addressed their attacks many times, and have found they have little or no basis whatsoever.

The LDS church does not discourage me from exploring criticisms. Indeed, we are asked to ask questions, and then search out, study, pray, and find the answers.

I know that the LDS Church IS what it claims to be. I have lived the doctrine, and know it is true. "If any man will do my will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:17). I have also asked God if it is true, and he has manifested to me that it is so, by the power of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost does not lie.

Yes, Jesus exists, he loves each and every one of us, and hopes that each will enter his fold. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt. 7:22-23).
FT »

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:53 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hesadanza, you miss the distinction. Smith taught that Father was a personage of the spirit and Jesus was a personage of the "tabernacle." Why make the distinction if it had no meaning?

It did have meaning - and this is one reason why the lectures were later dropped from the D&C. JS changed his mind. It is OK to change one's mind or receive new revelation - but it just seems to contradict the prior grove story.
Hesadanza »

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:48 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Read it again, "the Father being a personage of spirit, glory, and power, possessing all perfection and fullness..." He did not say that the Father did not have a physical body. He said he was a personage of spirit, glory and power. The Son is the same. We all have spirits, and some may have more of the Holy Spirit that abides in them than others. The Father is full of the Holy Spirit.

He also said that the Son "is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, possessing all the fullness of the Father, or the same fullness with the Father."

If the Son has a physical body, so does the Father. For they are in the express likeness of one another.
FT »

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:35 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hesadanza, my reply email to you was undeliverable, so I will post it here.

Islam faces far greater opposition world-wide than does Mormonism, but that does not make Islam true.

I am sorry you are unwilling to study the Book of Abraham origins. It is only the facts that convince me it is a fraud.

I would note that my church does not discourage me from exploring criticisms - even from the mouths of the critics themselves. I find that God's truth always comes out first, and consideration of the criticisms only strengthens my understanding of God's truth. If the LDS church is true, then an investigation can only strengthen you. If it is false, then the question is: would you want to know....

If the LDS church was not what it claims to be, would you want to know?

I am always around and willing to talk if you ever change your mind.

Perhaps we can share this common ground: even though we may have a different understanding of who Jesus is, I think we can both agree that Jesus exists and that He has an abiding love for us.

May God's Holy Spirit lead you in all truth.
FT »

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:24 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

The Lectures on Faith were originally written in 1834 as part of the curriculum for the School of the Prophets in Kirtland, Ohio. They were included in the original (1835) Doctrine and Covenants printed in Kirtland, and constituted the "Doctrine" portion of that book.

In Lecture Five we find the following: “We shall, in this lecture speak of the Godhead: we mean the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There are two personages who constitute the great matchless, governing and supreme power over all things... they are the Father and the Son: the Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power possessing all perfection and fullness: the Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle.”

Thus Joseph taught that God the Father was a personage of Spirit, that the Son was a personage of tabernacle (he had a body) and the Holy Spirit was the “mind” that both the Father and the Son possess. Smith later changed his view on this matter, and The Lectures on Faith were subsequently removed from the D&C.

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