Final briefs were submitted to the California Supreme Court Tuesday, positioning the court to schedule a hearing over the constitutionality of same-sex “marriages.”
Under federal law, the United States government only recognizes marriage as defined as a union between a man and a woman – a traditional view of marriage that has spanned centuries. Over 61 percent of California voters approved a similar law in 2000.
The California appeals court last year upheld the state definition of marriage, rejecting the notion that same-sex couples have a constitutional right to marry. The decision overturned a 2005 ruling by a lower court in San Francisco.
The California Supreme Court will review the 2006 ruling through six lawsuits – four of which were filed by the city of San Francisco and same-sex couples in support of same-sex “marriage.”
Two traditional values groups, the Campaign for California Families (CCF) and the Proposition 22 Legal Defense and Education Fund, have filed lawsuits in defense of the current definition of marriage.
Many conservative and religious groups such as the American Center for Law and Justice also filed friend-of-the-court briefs in support of the two groups.
Tuesday was the deadline for filing written briefs responding to amicus briefs.
Liberty Counsel, a Christian legal group representing CCF, was among those who submitted written briefs Tuesday.
In the brief, the group argues: "The definition of marriage as the union of one woman and one man has transcended law, geography, social custom and religious rights for millennia. Nothing has been presented to this court, either by the parties or by the amici, to change that reality.”
Liberty Counsel’s brief responded to a total of forty-five amicus briefs, including one from African American Pastors of California, which contends, “The analogy [of same-sex marriage] to racial discrimination is not only false, it is destructive.”
Mathew D. Staver, founder of Liberty Counsel, said it is not the court’s position to alter a social institution.
“Virtually every court that has considered challenges to traditional marriage has correctly concluded that the matter of marriage should be decided by the people, not by the courts. Courts are not proselytizing engines of radical social change,” said Staver in a statement Wednesday.
“Marriage between one man and one woman is a historically shared value that transcends time,” he continued. “Untying the knot that holds together traditional marriage will unravel the family, destabilize the culture, and hurt children.”
Several major cities in the state have submitted amicus briefs asking the court to change state laws banning same-sex “marriage.” The city of Sacramento decided last week to join cities including Los Angeles, Long Beach, San Diego, Oakland, and San Jose, in backing the city of San Francisco.
Court spokeswoman Lynn Holton said a court hearing is expected to take place “within a few months,” reported CBS5.com.
The court has three months to issue a written decision following the hearing.
Currently, Massachusetts is the only state that recognizes marriage between two people of the same sex.
In 2004, San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom had allowed nearly 4,000 same-sex couples to obtain marriage licenses and wed. That same year, however, the California Supreme Court ruled that Newsom had overstepped his authority and declared the licenses invalid.
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you keep saying that there are scriptures that condemn homosexuality as sin........................but they dont. my appeal to you, is for you to explain how the words of those verses condemn homosexuality as sin.
Really don't know what is so hard for you to understand, If God has condemed something such as homosexaulity, or adultery, sex before marriage, anger, drunkenness,wickness etc, etc, it is considered sin. Not sure where you are hung up on this sin thing. And those who live lives of sin are going to have a hard time getting into heaven. This isn't a cultural thing as you suggest, it is what has been taught by Christians and Jews since the beginning. But of course I suppose they have been wrong for all these years and now you have come up with the true meaning. Ah I don't think so. Gods Blessing on you and yours. In Christ Tom
tom
i didnt say give me the scripture. i know all the scriptures that refer to homosexuality. i said....................please explain how these scriptures declare that homosexuality a sin.
homosexuality being attracted to and desiring to bond with someone of the same sex., out of mutual respect, love, and trust for shared committed life together.
when those who chose to stand on "homosexuality being a sin", refer to their understanding they always speak of a teaching. however when it comes to discussing the scriptures of this teaching, they are unable explain how these declare it a sin.
this makes one wonder if their understanding is more cultural than spiritual. cultural does not require any explanation , only a belief system that says it is true. however cultural is made by man for man.
however anything spiritual, esp. spiritual having to do with christ.....has to withstand a test, of a the new covenant understanding of the gospel teachings thru embracing the three commandments, and the reasoning of the epistles.
Sorry feet many people have tried to show you scripture after scripture and you refuse to open your eyes to all of scripture, not just the ones you want. You seem to have all the knowledge but not the spirit of what Christianty is about. You want a license to sin and we won't give it to you and certianly not God. Under your misundestanding of scripture you have given people the right to murder those whom are sick unto death if we do it out of love. You have given me permission to commit adultry if I do it out of love. I can now kill the unborn out of love for the mother. Man feet you have open the Pandora's box.
May God have mercy on our souls. Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
of ourselves we can do nothing holy. what ever holiness we have, which is basically being set apart, comes from christ living in us and his grace that allows us to embrace his spirit.
homosexuality is only a sin if comes against loving your neighbor as yourself, the summation of the law. and so far no one has been able to give evidence that it comes against this command. or been able to explain how the scriptures they are standing on says homosexuality is a sin.
if you can explain how scripture does say it, or give evidence to show how it comes against the commandment, i would appreciate your doing so.
Sorry feet Homosexaultiy is among other sins that are contary to Gods commandment to live Holy lives for He is Holy. living in sin, if you will, is not living lives of Holiness. Please seek His kingdom and His understanding
Gods Blessing
Tom
In Christ
Tom
takeover and tom
". Feet take your pick they all call homosexaultiy a sin and as sin it misses the mark, the standard that God has set forth in His word and that standard was set by Jesus Christ and what He did on the Cross"
the problem with is that it is anti- scriptural. according to romans, in our convenant with christ the law is not our standard. the law is for conscious............conscious about loving........loving our neighbor as ourselves(the summatiomn of the law). how can the law be our standard if we are no longer under it. we dont receive god's righteousness, or salvation thru following it. yes, scripture aays the law is holy. but it also says that it is imperfect. instead christ is our perfection.
because is the fulfillment of the law, is love, love is now our standard.
loving god(the father and christ, along with the holy spirit). loving our neighbors as ourselves. loving one another as christ has loved us.
if we attempt to put a brother under the law, when we are not under it, how are we serving in the spirit. if we are trying to put our brother under imperfection, how can that be considered as an act of love. how can that affirm the crucifixion, thru whose power we receive god's perfection.....his righteousness.
thru what scriptures can you possibly be receiving this understanding?
(continued)
2 Corinthians 3:5-7 (New International Version)
5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
galatians 3:18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
hebrews 8: 13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
Luke 22:19-21
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."
1 Corinthians 11:24-26
[ Ministers of the New Covenant ] Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me,
2 Corinthians 2:11-13
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Thanks Tom for your encouraging words. Keep up the good work advancing The Kingdom of God.
Grace and Peace continue to be yours ,
takeover
Matthew 11:12-And from the days of John the Baptist until now The Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Like I said you can lead a horse to water but ya can't make him drink. Feet take your pick they all call homosexaultiy a sin and as sin it misses the mark, the standard that God has set forth in His word and that standard was set by Jesus Christ and what He did on the Cross. We as Christians are supposed to be like Him. We can't granted, without His help, that He sends by His Spirit. He said we are to live lives of Holiness, we are the temple of the Lord, or should be. Hope you have a good Thanksgiving, Gods Blessing on you and yours.
In Christ
Tom
tom and others
no one has yet explained how the scriptures they are standing on say homosexuality is a sin.
lev, gen,rom,1cor, 1tim.................take your pick.
and no one has yet explained how the spirit of the essence of homosexuality comes against christ, which namely is the attraction and desire to bond to the same sex.
All, The study I referanced is called "E-Gay A study of Religiuosly Mediated change in sexual orientation" by Jones and Yarhouse
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
takeover You have done a good job trying to eplained to feet thru scripture what God thinks about the sin of homosexaultiy. Thank You! There have been many who have tried and done a good job at it, but as the saying goes. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Please keep praying for understanding to come to feet as well as others on this site who say it is not a sin. Mostly because they say one is born that way, which is contary to most if not all the studies that have been done and would it really matter anyway. As exodus international, Love won out and a recent study just completed, (sorry I can't recall it right now, check out the site NARTH), They can change, BY the help of this Savior we serve in Spirit and Truth. Romans 12:2 says in part " be transform by the renewing of your mind" Gods Blessing on you and yours
In Christ
Tom
we both agree that there is death in sin and that chris came to deliver us from it.
are differences are that i see no sin in homosexuality,and you do.
yes, there was a prohibition in lev. but the prohibition is not necessarily an indication that scripture is saying it is a sin.
yes, there sins committed in the commission of same sex relations, but this no more condemns homosexuality than it does heterosexuality.
i have yet to hear any condemnation of it in the name of love and fellowship. every condemnation, i have heard is shrouded in fear, disgust, contempt and riducule.
in essence those that condemn, have to do it by first, stepping of loving your neighbor as yourself, loving one another as i have loved you, and out of fellowship.........................in other words they have to step out of christ.
and when i question those that about the source of their condemnation, they will not answer my questions.
neither will they answer questions about the essence of homosexuality.
there is no understanding about testing.
given all this i am forced to believe that my understanding of scripture is correct. that scripture has never condemned homosexuality a sin.
and to support this, when i fellowship with homosexuals i see no sin in the essence of the orientation.
I am not going to argue with you. I ‘m going to obey God.
It’s interesting that you don’t want to hear what God has to say about sin(you call it judging). God has already judged sin. I was just telling you what He said and you don’t want to hear what “The Lord” has to say.
Did you think He was lying when He said, the wages of sin is death
Romans 6:20-23- 22 But now you ARE FREE from the power of sin
and have become slaves of God.
Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life
through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Gays and Lesbians are not free from sin. They say everybody practices sins.
The devil is a liar.
God FREED ME from sin, in March of 1992. I am not a sinner. I do not practice sin. Have I sinned. Yes. There is a difference between someone who has sinned and someone who practices sin. Repentance is the difference. My mind has changed toward everything that goes against the character of God. I agree that fornication is wrong, lying is wrong, stealing is wrong, hate is wrong, and everything that God says is wrong, I agree with Him, it is wrong. I agree with God that holiness gives life, joy, peace, and everything that is good.
Consider, you will live at the most 100 years and then you will stand before The Righteous Judge, explain to Him how you ignored His commands and you didn’t agree with Him.
Repent and agree with God. The reason why you and I are on the opposite side is because I agree with God that sin will kill you (ask Adam). Living like Jesus will give you life.
Feetxxxl, I love you and I will be praying for you.
If you don’t remember anything that I have said, please remember that you will stand before the same God that sent fire on Sodom and Gomorrah. He loves you but check The Bible, He hates sin and if you think that when you leave here(earth), you are going to turn heaven into San Francisco. Oh Boy.
God has a plan to invade the gay community and transform many into what He originally intended for a man and a woman to be (Genesis 1,2). I hope you are a part of that transformation.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13-When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10 But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.
12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.
im not sure what paul was saying for a number of reasons.
first of all, all of us have our own idols, which we are guilty of putting them ahead of christ. we are also guilty of gossip, and daily we cheat ourselves and others out of the abundant life of christ.
1john says if we say we are without sin we are liars.
and romans 2:11You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
here paul is saying that we all guilty of grievances specified in romans (1) not thanking and glorifying god in our lives(2)exchanging the glory of god to embrace images of (success,poweretc)mortal man(3) exchanging god's truth for lies of the world, flesh, and satan(powers and principalities), and worship and serve them thru those lies.(all of them being the created)(4) abandoning loving our neighbor as ourselves for the lusts of our hearts(5) thinking it not worthwhile to retain the knowledge of god in our persecute of our own gain
(CONTINUED)
james says that if we are guilty of violating the law on one point we are guilty of violating it all.
that being the case, it is my assumption, in 1cor that he is referring to the man who has his father's wife. and i am assuming that "having", means a sexual relationship..........and therefore a violation of adultery, a violation of vows and dishonoring his father, and not loving him as he loves himself.
also there are these verses about judging:
Matthew 7:1
[ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Matthew 7:1-3 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 6:37
[ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Luke 6:36-38 (in Context) Luke 6 (Whole Chapter)
John 12:47
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
also i would not attempt to share a discernment of sin with a brother unless we were in fellowship. then it would not be merely, my pointing out something, but rather it would be us seeing it together in the spirit.
"if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of christ purifies us from all sin."
John 12:46-48 (in Context) John 12 (Whole Chapter)
as far as myself , i am as the tax collector in luke 18," i see in part.....a poor reflection", and rely on what christ did on the cross for my sanctification, purification, and justification......................................and i attempt to deal with sin thru the power of the holy spirit, and thru his grace, when i encounter it.
First of all, I need you to answer this question before we continue. I had the impression that you were a homosexual that was questioning God’s command that it’s wrong to marry the same sex. I hope you are not someone who says they are a follower of Christ and endorses sin.
If you claim to be a believer in Christ Jesus, The Apostle Paul says that I am not allowed to associate or fellowship with you. If you are an unbeliever then I would love to continue this exchange.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13-When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10 But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.
12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.
i addressed the scriptures you addressed, not just merely quoted.
if you want to do a address the scripture dialogue. ill let you start. you give me one scripture.........................................you address it with a paragraph. then ill address it with a paragraph. then it i will in turn to do the same.
how do you come with up this bizarre understanding. heterosexuality is attractrion to opposite sex. homosexuality is attraction to to same sex. heterosexual sex can be out of a mutual love, trust, and respect bonding or it can be hedonisitic. homosexual the same.
the nature of the sex has to with the spiritual bond between pardners. if in addition to eros it also includes agapi love of neighbor and self, it embraces the fruit of the spirit.
there is no such thing as only sex. every human act is imbued with some spirit. the concern is what the spirit.
jesus said you can identify that spirit by the fruit that it produces. if it produces the fruit of the spirit, it is of the spirit and of god. he also said a good tree can only produce good fruit.
There you go trying to get deep on me again. What test? It's very simple to understand. You have not addressed the many scriptures that I have provided you with because you believe that you can ignore the truth.
Are you saying that homosexuality is about love? Homosexuality is not about love it’s about sex. We are commanded by God to love everyone, including our enemies. What does that have to do with sex.
I’m not saying that homosexuals do not love their partner. Maybe they do but they better love God more and say “even though I love you, I love God more”. I had to do that when I got saved in 1992. I was in love but God said I had to let the relationship go because it was sinful.
I understand that God wants me to love my neighbor, He didn’t say have sex with them. Love and sex is two different things. I love my mom. What in the world does that have to do with sex. Homosexuals have to be honest.
Why would I test scripture to see if it applies to same sex relations, when God said a man could only have sex with his wife. God said that sex was for a man and his wife. Not a man who is not married to a woman, not a man and his mistress, not two men, not two woman, not a man and a beast. If you want to be in The Kingdom of God, it is and it always will be illegal to have same sex relations.
Homosexuals have to get back into the fight along with the rest of us. I'm referring to those who have to go against their evil desires lurking within us. It is not always easy but I would rather be a disciple of Christ(disciplined) than God giving me over to my own shameful lust.
if you have no understanding of romans,1cor,and 1tim. then what scripture are you standing on. surely it cannot be lev. because not all the prohibitions of lev were of themselves sins........such as household chores on the sabbath.
num 15: 32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
i1 Thessalonians 5:21 (New International Version)
21Test everything. Hold on to the good.
one cannot test what does not understand.
you have no way to test whether scripture is denoting sins committed during same sex relations or is condemnng the entire orientation. surely the incestual rape committed in 2samuel doesnt condemn heterosexuality. why should the gang rape of genesis condemn homosexuality.
you also have no test to see if the transposition of an 18th century word(homosexual) into a 2000 year old text was done improperly.
in fact i my understanding of your words are..............is that you have no test. without a test you are holding an unsubstantiated belief.
even non -believers have done better than that. they have fellowshipped thru family relationships, friendships and work related experiences and have found homosexuals lacking nothing compared to heterosexuals...............without knowing it they have been obedient to scripture.
when jesus condemned the behavior of the phariseess(matthew 23), he didnt do it by quoting scripture, but by denoting specific acts of the pharisees that clearly came against loving ones neighbor as oneself. jesus's commandment was not love the law. it was love one another.
you have given no specific actions in the orientation that comes against LOVING ONES NEIGHBOR AS ONESELF.
for me to address 1thess i have to see the scripture not the paraphrase.
The Truth about God-
1 Thessalonians 4-8-
3 God’s will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin.
4 Then each of you will control his own body and live in holiness and honor—
5 not in lustful passion like the pagans who do not know God and His ways.
6 Never harm or cheat a Christian brother in this matter by violating his wife, for The Lord avenges all such sins, as we have solemnly warned you before.
7 God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives.
8 Therefore, anyone who refuses to live by these rules is not disobeying human teaching
but is rejecting God, who gives His Holy Spirit to you.
The Lie
God loves homosexuals so much that He(God) will change for them. God will change His mind because “You can’t help the way that you were born” so God is going to give you a free pass to live life the way you want and forget about conforming into God’s image and become like Him. Everyone else has to fight their demons but you get to romance yours.
God says in verse 4-each of you will control his own body and live in holiness and honor
You can control your flesh, not by yourself but with the help of Christ. That’s why you have to make Jesus Christ The Lord of your life. He will help you.
He gave us His Word, He gave us His Son, He gave us His Spirit, He gave us His Power, He gave us brothers and sisters to help us through it. God gave us everything that we need to obey Him. But you must Repent (Change your way of thinking and submit to God).
I respect a homosexual more who says “Look, I’m going to live my life the way I want.
I am not a believer and I am not going to obey God.”
There is hope for God to change this man because he is operating in his God given right to make a choice to live life the way that you want to live it. Mind you, there are consequences to all of our choices.
But what dummie(respectfully) would say “I’m going to lie to myself and say that God loves me so much that He (God) is going to change and receive me into His Kingdom on my terms(as a homosexual).
If God did that then He owes me and everybody else, especially Jesus, an apology. Jesus paid an extremely high price for us to have the opportunity to be God’s children. The least that we could do is put on the proper clothes (holiness)(Matthew 22:9-14) to join The Family of God.
here's another question you wont be able to answer.
romans 1:24"Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts."
WHAT WAS THE TRUTH THAT WAS EXCHANGED FOR WHAT LIE, AND AND HOW WAS THE CREATED WORSHIPPED AND SERVED SO THAT SOME PEOPLE WERE GIVEN OVER TO HOMOSEXUALITY?
i assume that this how you approach a homosexual. as someone who is serving and worshipping the created and are standing on some lie that was exchanged for some truth. do you have any idea what that is?
i ask this because i know number of people who having been raised in the church came to know christ long before they were ever aware of their orientation. and others who sensed they were attracted to the same sex, way back when they were 4 and 5 years old. throughout their entire lives, they were never attracted to the opposite sex.
That is the reason why God gave us commandments because He loves us.
You seem to view godly principles and discipline as a bad thing. I don’t.
I’m glad that Christ loved me enough to give me Hs righteous principles. I would probably have AIDS or some other sexually transmitted disease if I didn’t stop sinning. The wages of sin is death. Period. Why would you want to practice something that will lead you to death and eternal separation from God .
Every good parent that loves their children, will teach them Godly principles like self-discipline, respect for others etc,, etc..
A child who refuses to submit to these principles is destined for destruction.
God, because He loves us, tells us how to live a successful life here on earth and He gives His instructions to any who has any plans to live with Him when they leave this earth.
What mature child believes that their parents discipline is bad. I’m glad that I don’t have to live like the devil. I am proud of the fact that I can be trusted and that I walk in integrity. I would probably be in prison today if I remained a liar. I wouldn’t love you, unless I submitted to Christ commands to love your neighbor as myself and not look down on another human being. It’s because of The Love of God and His Way of doing things that I am convinced that God’s Way is the best Way.
To be honest I used to feel sorry for homosexuals because I reasoned “God says for the rest of their lives they can’t have sex with whom they want to have sex.” Until one day, I realized I can’t have sex with everyone I want to have sex with either. I have to fight the feeling so that I can remain faithful to my spouse and I know for a fact, that is not easy. How many married heterosexual men and women only want to have sex with one man or one woman? Yet even in today’s society it is considered immoral to run around on your spouse. So every married heterosexual has to fight the feeling and be committed to their spouse. Even if their not faithful, who would say, there is nothing wrong with having sex with whoever you want to have sex with if you are married. So every married heterosexual has to use discipline every day. Why is it that homosexuals get a free pass just because they were born with it. I was born with sin? Yet God didn’t feel sorry for me. He said control your flesh and have sex with one (your spouse). It’s amazing, he taught me discipline and now I know it can be done.
How come homosexuals are the only ones that can use the excuse I was born this way.
Why can’t pedophiles or incest get a free pass? They have to resist their urges or they will live their lives in prison. So I don’t feel a bit sorry for a homosexual person. Since I have to fight the feeling, you have to fight the feeling and line up with God’s word if you want to be in The Kingdom of God.
jesus's message is that fullfillment of the law is love. in chist we are no longer under the law, which is now for conscious......conscious about loving ones neighbor as oneself, which is a summation of the law.
the message(commandment) of christ is to love one another as i have loved you. this is in companion with loving ones neighbor as oneself and loving god.
for homosexuality to be a sin there must be something in its essence that comes against, loving one another as jesus loved us and loving ones neighbor as oneself.
WHAT IS IT?
Romans 10:9-If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.
God is not saying, “lie and say that you believe that Jesus is Lord and you can live anyway you want to live.” Since you believe that He is Lord, you will do what He says.
Jesus said Luke 6:46-And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
How can you believe that you are right with God when you don’t even agree with Him.
Matthew 11:20(NLT)- Then Jesus began to denounce the towns where He had done so many of His miracles, because they hadn’t repented of their sins and turned to God.
21 “What sorrow awaits you, Korazin and Bethsaida! For if the miracles I did in you had been done in wicked Tyre and Sidon, their people would have repented of their sins long ago, clothing themselves in burlap and throwing ashes on their heads to show their remorse. 22 I tell you, Tyre and Sidon will be better off on judgment day than you.
23 “And you people of Capernaum, will you be honored in heaven? No, you will go down to the place of the dead. For if the miracles I did for you had been done in WICKED SODOM, it would still be here today. 24 I tell you, even Sodom will be better off on judgment day than you.”
feetxxxl, notice Jesus talks about WICKED SODOM. Jesus said, if they would have had an experience with Christ, they would have repented(change their mind about their sin).
As I said before you can receive the message that Jesus gave or you can reject it.
That is your God given right to make a choice.
i keep hearing a requirement of repentance of a particular sin for salvation. why is that?................. if we hold up one requirement of action, some works that we must acccomplish to enable salvation, aren't we negating the crucifixion and its power.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
romans 10:9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
surely there is a difference between acknowledging there is sin in our lives, and saying if i dont repent of a particullar sin i will have no salvation.
we die to christ once and are reserrected to him once. this is not something we do, it is given to us thru the power of the crucifixion, ressurection and its spirit.
do we actually believe that sin has the power undo what christ has accomplished in us.
from what scripture comes this understanding?
To feetxxxl,
You don’t have to get deep (The essence of homosexuality). It’s very simple. All of us were born in sin. My sin was lying, fornicating, prejudice and a host of others.
Your sin is justifying homosexuality and a host of others. Unless you say there is no such thing as a sin. I will assume that you know better than that. Where would you get the knowledge of what sin is? God, The Righteous Judge. He was The One who wrote the rules, not me. I am not the judge. He is. He has already judged sin. As a believer, I have the responsibility to tell you about His Kingdom and what The Righteous Judge has already said.
God told me to tell the world about The Kingdom of God. Jesus came saying
Matthew 3:2-“Repent ye: for The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
Repent means to change the way you think.
That is my message to a heterosexual sinner(whoremonger, fornicator, adulterer), homosexual (lesbian) sinner, a pedophile, a liar, a greedy person and every other sinner, Change the way you think.
Jesus Christ changed the way I think about life. He gave me God's thoughts and God's standards.
I used to think I couldn't live without having sex until he gave me a new nature and showed me I could wait until I got married. I thought evervbody lies until I developed integrity and discovered that I can be honest and speak the truth. I was once prejudice against homosexuals until He told me not to have respect of persons and to love a homosexual just like I would love myself.
I have a new nature. I’m free from sin. I don’t have to live by what my evil nature dictates to me(lying, hate, adultery). I live by God’s Love (His righteous commands).
I want to reach out to those who are homosexual, all of us came from the same pool of sin. You can be free through God’s Son, Jesus Christ.
feetxxxl,
According to you, I can’t tell another human being what God said. Can the justice systems of this world tell a murderer “you have committed a crime“? What about a child molester?
Can an employer fire an employee for lying or cheating? Would you say that he doesn‘t have a right to judge? Is a man that cheats on his wife and gives her AIDS a sinner?
Is Osama Bin Laden a sinner? In your opinion I couldn’t tell Osama Bin Laden that Jesus said Repent, for The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Is a person who would kill a homosexual in The Name of Christ a sinner? Is there such a thing as a liar? The answer is YES to all of these questions.
According to you we should not have any morals because we would be judging. Can I teach my children the difference between right and wrong?
I can and I will.
I won’t force you to receive it, that is your choice but since I have The Love of Christ I will share with you Good News about God’s Kingdom.
and there are those who believe, they hold the true interpretation of the law, (even though they receive none of god's righteousness by following it and in christ are no longer under it)and because so, believe they have license to condemn those violate this interpretation.
where do they find this this understanding in scripture.
romans 2:1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
1cor6:9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
were they were washed, justified, and sanctified because of the blood christ or because they stopped sinning. were they washed justified,and sanctified because othe blood of christ or because they righteously follwed the law.
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
takeover
if you are so convinced that homosexuality is a sin, then please explain the spirit of the essence of homosexuality that makes come against christ. christ, who god put all things under.
Christian Post 4:00 am 11-16-07
Many Christians need to repent and focus on their responsibility which is to love everyone and tell them about the change that Christ made in their lives. There are Christians who don't want to share the love of Christ with a homosexual person because they are showing respect of persons (prejudice) or respect of sin. They will speak out against homosexuality (Ellen, Rosie) but will say very little about fornication (Oprah). Many homosexuals have been hurt by Christians who have been so mean and hateful because they claim to disdain sin. If that were the case then why won't they love a homosexual enough to tell them about The Man who can set them free. We are fishers of men. You can't expect to clean a fish before you catch it. Our responsibility is to love a sinner and invite them into The Kingdom of God.
I believe that the reason why homosexuals are gaining more ground is that they know that Jesus loves them and that there are some Christians that are practicing sin because they are mean and hateful to them. They use that as an excuse to continue in sin. We as followers of Christ have to walk in love at all times toward anybody whether it be a homosexual or a heterosexual, a pedophile or a murderer. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. The issue is not about how filthy, it's about the redemptive work of Christ and how He alone can bring us into right relationship with God. Jesus said for God so loved the world (not the church)
that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Remember we were the world at some point in life.
Obviously to get into The Kingdom of God every homosexual has to repent (change his way of thinking) just like everybody else.
Romans 1:9,10 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit The Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.
As the body of Christ it is not our job to force them to believe but to lovingly let them know that Jesus loves them and they need to change their mind about sin. Leave the rest up to God.
tom
when jesus openly condemned the pharisees, it did not by quoting an interpretation of law but by describing acts that were obviously against loving ones neighbor
matthew23:13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]
why is it that all at this website those who believe that homosexuality is against christ, dont give witness that specifically denotes how the essence comes against christ.
otherwise you are replicating the pharises judgement of christ discples when they observed thempulling off garin to eat from the stalks on the sabbath.
you say that anyone who has homosexual sex is a sinner, but never explain how the spirit of the essence of that act comes against christ.
you give characterizations of lust and defilement without having any witness of any commited homosexual relationships and you hold your characterization without witness, as an act of loving your neighbor and loving one another as christ loved us.
do you think jesus characterizations were without his own personnal witness?
why is there no awareness that in addressing homosexuals in general they are also addressing they are also addressing their brothers in christ who share their same inheritance. why is considered an act of christ to credit them either with NOTHING or that they actually even exist.
in the time of christ jewish men only sexually bonded with what was their property. it was unlawul for a jewish man to make another jewish man his property. jesus teachings were always based on the grounded reality of the present. for him to have mention the issue of homosexuality, would have made as much sense as his talking about space travel to the moon.
where is the love in this discrimination of homosexuality over heterosexuality?
tw peck
the essence of the law is to remain............the essence and fulfillment which is love.
when paul said in romans that the law was now for conscience , he was talking about conscious of loving your neighbor as yourself, which is the summation of the law.
TWPeck - Thanks for the comments. I believe the Bible is the Word of God and the inerrant Word of God but I also believe that it is open to some interpretation.
When Jesus expounded on the Law, what did he talk about? Three of the six things he talked about had to do with heterosexual relations, not homosexuality. I would argue that he did talk about lying and stealing (when you think about it, you can't commit adultery without either of those things).
What about the other three? Anger? Lots of people on CP (myself included) are definitely guilty of that. Retaliation? Please, have you read some of the responses people have given (myself included) and Love for enemies? Where do we even begin.
Look we all fall short of the Glory. Most Christians spend way too much time "hating the sin but loving the sinner" on this particular "sin."
desi 106
all those are merely learned negative behavior, and can be mitigated thru counseling and safe sex behavior.
they no more go to the essence of the orientation, than the incestal rape of 2samuel expesses the essence of heterosexuality..
tom
whatever thing you say is truth HAS TO love ones neighbor as oneself...................i dont see your interpretation doing anything but discriminating against something because it isnt heterosexuaL even though it is of the same spirit essence as heterosexuality.................mutual respect, love, and trust.
yes, the love is eros because it is about sexual attraction, but it is also agapi because it involves respect and trust, which also supports love of neighbor and god.
Ifeelfine72:
That depends on your view of Christ and Scripture.
If you believe that, as He indicated, He is God in human form (a partner in the Trinity), then Christ DID say that homosexual activites were a sin - in the Old Testament. He was there in the begining.
Also, if you believe that the Scriptures are the inerrant Word of God, then He said it through Paul in the Epistles.
Did He say so in the Gospels? No, but He also never said lying or stealing was a sin. He did reaffirm the Law, in fact fulfilled it (but the Law still remained), He never said anything is a sin. These were laid out in the Law, and He reaffirmed the law by fulfilling the Law. While we are no longer compelled to enforce the Law on others, the Law remains as pointing to sin.
Christians need to stand firm on the Word of God - the whole Word so when we indicate something is a "sin" we need to be sure to point out the results of sin and the good news of redemption through Christ. Unfortuately, too many of our brothers and sisters stop at shouting the sin and not the best part - Salvation through Christ.
Tom, Please let me add a caviate: Jesus never said "only."
Ifeelfine but it does say that it is only for a man and a women
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Amen to that Tom but our Savior didn't say a word about gay marriage. There are passages that one would think condemn gay marriage (or homosexuality in general) but in reality don't.
I would hope that you do ifeelfine. Christias have not done a very good job loving everybody including Gay and Lesbians. Howver we can not forget what our Chrsitian belief is built on. Belief in a Savior who says that we must turn from our sin and accept Him Jesus as Lord. We not called to change what He has said in His book.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Desi: I would question the motives of the organization you reference as they have a clear agenda and bias toward heterosexual marriage (they say it right in their mission statement and if you read their history, its one of the reasons they were formed). In Denmark, heterosexual marriages disolve 46% of the time whereas same sex marriages only disolve 17% of the time. Check it here: http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19970501-000017.html
And your statement about societies colapsing after one or two generations of redefining marriage doesn't make any sense at all. The Bible condoned polygamy - we don't condone that anymore.
One of the things I don't get is that as Christians, we are to love one another and yet there is so much hate and vitriol when it comes to gay people. It seems as if its easy to dismiss those folks and hate them. I don't get it. Sure there are platitudes, "hate the sin, not the sinner," but when I talk to folks about it - I don't feel it. If my son turns out to be gay, I will love him every bit as much as if he turns out to be streight.
Well spoken desi06
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Hey Feetxxxl,
I wish what you said in your comment was accurate to the reality but unfortunately it isn't. Here's some stats from the American College of Pediatricians:
-"Homosexual partnerships are significantly more prone to dissolution than heterosexual marriages with the average homosexual relationship lasting only two to three years." That doesn't bode well for trying to raise children in a stable home. Yes, many people get divorced too, but why should we add to the problem?
-"Violence among homosexual partners is two to three times more common than among married heterosexual couples." If domestic violence rates are higher, that also is not a healthy environment for children.
-"Children reared in homosexual households are more likely to experience sexual confusion, practice homosexual behavior, and engage in sexual experimentation. Adolescents and young adults who adopt the homosexual lifestyle, like their adult counterparts, are at increased risk of mental health problems, including major depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance dependence, and especially suicidal ideation and suicide attempts" If the children who have already been raised in these environments are showing problems, we should take that as a sign that this might not be a good idea. You can read more information about it here: http://www.acpeds.org/?CONTEXT=art&cat=22&art=50
As far as previous historical understandings, I am not aware of a single society that did not collapse within one to two generations after redefining marriage. We are walking on dangerously thin ice. If one man and one woman are required to biologically create a child, and one man and one woman are needed to raise a child.
feet you have been walk thru this over and over, It is apparent you wish not to understand what the Bible clearly says about Homesexaultiy and thus refuse to believe. The answer is simple two differant spirits one is a deciever the other is the Spirit of truth. One masquerades as truth bent on destroying the other is Truth design to Honor God and His word.
Gods Blessing on you and yours
In Christ
Tom
do me a favor walk me thru this!
you have two couples, one homosexual and one heterosexual. both bond out of mutual love,attraction ,respect,and trust.......................in other words the same spirit...................things equal to the same thing are equal to each other.
married heterosexual couples and committed homosexual couples provide equally loving nurturing homes for raising children.
practicing homosexuals have not been found wanting in any sector of society compared to practicing heterosexuals.
so if the bonding spirit is the same, then the fruit of that spirit will be the same.
and the nurturing capacity is the same.
and their performance in all sectors of society is the same.....................................where is the breakdown?
wouldn't this be evidence that would transcend previous historical understandings?
Thanks JC......
God's written definition of marriage:
Genesis 2:23 & 24 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
But, for those who try to change it, God has something to say about that too:
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Some people think that God condones this activity, but history proves otherwise. Where is Sodom and Gomorrah? Ever wonder where the word sodomy came from?