The city of Philadelphia is threatening to end a nearly 80-year building agreement with the nation’s third Boy Scouts chapter if the group doesn’t change its policy to accommodate gay employees.
All members of the local Scouts chapter, which operates as the Cradle of Liberty Council, must take the Scout Oath and Law in which they promise to do their duty to God and to be morally straight, as well as to be clean in their thoughts, words and deeds.
While the organization does not inquire about sexual orientation at the time of membership, the group bars an avowed homosexual from leadership because they believe such an individual would not be a role model for the values espoused in the Oath and Law, according to a past news release from Boy Scouts of America.
A 2000 Supreme Court ruling upheld the right of the national Boy Scouts to exclude openly gay members from its ranks since it was a private organization.
However, Philadelphia City Solicitor Romulo Diaz said the group’s currently policy amounts to discrimination and has set a Dec. 3 deadline for the Boy Scouts to either renounce their moral standards or lose the headquarters they have rented from the city for $1 a year since 1928, reported the Washington Post.
According to Diaz, the Boy Scouts’ policy conflicts with a local 1982 “fair practice” law which prohibits employers from conditioning employment on the basis of “sexual orientation.”
"While we respect the right of the Boy Scouts to prohibit participation in its activities by homosexuals, we will not subsidize that discrimination by passing on the costs to the people of Philadelphia," the Post reported Diaz as saying.
City officials have suggested that the Scouts can stay at the Beaux-Arts building if they agree to pay the building’s market value price which is tentatively set at $200,000 a year.
If the Scouts refuse the ultimatum, Diaz said he will begin looking for alternative tenants to take over the property June 1, 2008.
While the offer may seem fair, Robert Knight of the Media Research Center wrote in a column posted on TownHall.com Tuesday that the Post report left out many key facts to the dispute.
The Beaux-Arts building was in fact built by the Scouts and later given to the city in 1928, noted Knight.
He added that the Scouts had a lease “in perpetuity” with the city, an agreement that was not upheld by the City Council.
Knight also suggested that that the city stands to benefit greatly from the youth organization, noting that most of the crimes dealing with murder and violence are committed by fatherless young men.
In an interview on “Hannity & Colmes” Tuesday, Jeff Jubelirer, spokesman for Boy Scouts of America, said the group had already modified its policy with a non-discrimination statement issued by city officials.
The non-discrimination statement reads: "Prejudice, intolerance and unlawful discrimination in any form are unacceptable within the ranks of Cradle of Liberty Council.”
According to Jubelirer, the group was assured “that if you adopt this, we'll be fine, and nothing has happened since that time.”
The local chapter has also in the past tried to renounce an affiliation with the national policy in hopes of saving its headquarters but has met difficulties.
“We were trying to be amendable to all sides, but National would not allow us to keep that language, so we rescinded it,” said Jubelirer in the Post report. “We can’t have a policy where we put in specific words that National won’t allow or we’ll loose our charter. We can’t afford not to be part of the national Boy Scouts.”
RSS
The building that the BSA rents from the city of Philly is given to them at one dollar a year in rent. The building is owned byt the city. If rented at market value, it would bring in a few hundred thousand dollars. Therefore, the taxpayers of Philly are subsidizing the BSA.
That's fine, but then don't call it a private organization. If you want to be a private org, then don't accept public funds or subsidies. If you do, then you have to play by the rules, and that means, in the case of Philly, that you cannot discriminate based on sexual orientation.
Dont' like it? Then don't accept the subsidy, or change the law, or change the BSA.
Regardless of what one thinks about homosexuality, the BSA is a PRIVATE organization, THEY build the building which they've allowed the city of Philadelphia to use for all these years, and it is WRONG that any government at any level should dictate to them what they can or cannot do with it. If the solicitor were not a homosexual himself, this wouldn't even be happening. I hope someone in Philadelphia will be less concerned about being politically "correct" than doing the RIGHT thing.
"they’re a family, him, his four wives, and his very tall sons. I figure, if he ever becomes a Christian… we won’t ever let him become an elder."
Exactly. Marriage is between ONE man and ONE woman. Maybe if I repeat it a few times you might get it. How about some flash cards? You think you'll get it then? Maybe draw some stick figures for you on a marker board?
Sigh-h-h-h-h-h, I went to dictionary.com and retrieved this little tidbit.
Definition of a:
6. one (used before a noun expressing quantity): a yard of ribbon; a score of times.
Sometimes I think truth has become so relative in this crazy world that becoming a hermit seems to have more pluses than minuses.
GMG,
You asked, “am I missing something here?”
Yup, you’re missing something :^)
Ya know, it’s a funny thing this conversation. I live just a few miles from the second largest polygamist sect in the U.S. Some of their big houses are just a walk away from my home. I’ve even been to church with them once (that was an interesting experience). One of my best friends used to be a member. I know of one polygamous family that has since left that church, they keep up the arrangement for the sake of the kids and because… well… they’re a family, him, his four wives, and his very tall sons. I figure, if he ever becomes a Christian… we won’t ever let him become an elder.
Polygamy… it’s not abnormal here.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
Ifeelfine and didymus - am I missing something here? Are you saying that these passages allow for more than one, such as 1 man and 2 women are okay, or whatever?
but the point is this....so try and follow along.... God ordained marriage between "one" man and "one" woman. Anything other than that is wrong.
youre right didymus...i looked up the word "a" in the dictionary. And it said "multiple of items, or more than one;numerous" sorry for being so presumptuous to think that "a" meant "one".
jester_the_King _of_dense,
1. You need to take an English refresher course.
2. More importantly, you need to learn some manners.
I'm sorry you're so dense, ifeelfine...let me quote it. It says the same thing:
Genesis 2:24 "For this reason A (singular, one, uno, solo, not two or more) man will leave his father and mother and be united to his WIFE (wife...not wives--singular, one, uno, solo, not two or more), and they will become one flesh."
Hold on...lets try New Testament....Ephesians 5:31 "For this reason A (singular, one, uno, solo, not two or more) man will leave his father and mother and be united to his WIFE (wife...not wives--singular, one, uno, solo, not two or more), and they will become one flesh."
Matthew 19:5 says "And said, For this cause shall A ( singular, one, uno, solo, not two or more)man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife (wife...not wives--singular, one, uno, solo, not two or more): and they twain shall be one flesh?
running out of arguments that you have to nitpick between "one" and "a"? Last time I checked the word "a" meant "one". I can't even believe you said "Jesus never said "one". I've heard better arguments from a 5 year old. But nice effort in tryng to avoid the truth...didn't work, but still looked good.
Jester - Jesus didn't use the word "one." Look it up
Jesus himself spoke of one man and one woman...so it's not quasi-biblical. Paul did too.
Thanks Didymus, I'll check him out.
maranatha7593 - I wasn't one. I know lots of other faiths consider homosexuality to be wrong. I'm not a part of those faiths, I'm a Christian. But even in the history of Christianity marriage hasn't always been defined as one man and one woman - its sometimes been one man and multiple women. The notion of "traditional marriage" is made up and only quasi-Biblical.
dont you realize that this country and world is going down the toilet? And that it has to? Things are just going to get worse...and worse.....until it's ripe for the antichrist to come in and "bring peace" to a divided world.
It's a rollercoaster ride, so sit down, buckle up, and hang on.....
token:
Your reasons for redefining marriage do not validate homosexual behavior as being normal, acceptable, right. There is no reason here in the US why homosexual "couples" cannot live in peace. They are not being deprived of being with anyone. They have been doing that for quite some time.
You said, "I realize that Christians do not interpret the world without the Bible for lense, and to me that only exemplifies the dangers religion pose on society."
If people do "interpret the world" without the Word of God being their standard, they are not Christians. This is not my theory, it's what Jesus Himself taught throughout His ministry on earth.
ifeelfine72:
Someone here had asked if any other faith besides Christianity deemed homosexualty to be abnormal. I answered by saying:
"Yes, homosexuality has been considered abnormal and sinful by other faiths besides Christianity. Islam is probably the most obvious example. And from antiquity, in every culture/faith, "marriage" has been defined as a binding union between a man and a woman."
It IS true that marriage has been defined as a binding union between men and women since antiquity -- not only in cultures based on Biblical faith, but also in cultures whose morals are not based on Biblical standards.
jc4me,
I'm sorry you feel that way.
How Wonderful Didymus, you are further deceiving ifeelfine by encouraging him to read the heretical teachings of Brian Mclaren the Liberal/Post-modern/emergent.
Great, the spiritually blind leading the spiritually blind.
Oops, the last sentence on my post doesn't belong there, so ignore it :)
Ifeelfine and didymus - all right guys, perhaps you need to go back a few posts and read what Token and I were discussing. The issue of NAMBLA is a part of the issue of homosexuality, and I sure have read more about "christian" atrocities throughout the ages than about NAMBLA in these discussions. And Ifeelfine, your sarcasm does not become you, and insults do not change the facts.
TokenSP - NAMBLA is not LAMBDA, and since I already know that you do many searches, you're not really fooling me. I agree that NAMBLA is an uncomfortable subject, but it is there all the same.
Sorry you don't like it, but discussing this group
ifeelfine72,
I recommend Brian Mclaren, I recently finished one of his earlier books, “A New Kind of Christian”, the other day. It wasn’t great, but it’s a good opener on emergent church stuff. I think better and deeper stuff can be found at http://churchandpomo.typepad.com/ and the book series they are releasing. I’ve read both of the books already published. That second one, by Caputo, titled “What Would Jesus Deconstruct?” I think you would appreciate.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
Hey Jester in the Kings Court:
I think you also may have forgotten GLSTEN. They are allowed to go and teach kids in Sout Florida Public schoold about some subjects I'd rater not talk about, but nevermind, like other's on this site say, I guess we're just blind right wing Cristian fundamentalists creating a conspiracy, and there is no gay agenda. Nope, I don't see one here anywhere................WRONG.
Thank you Dydimus, but the list did not include Nambla, and since both you and others on this site oterwise would like to exclude Nambla from the conversation, then I just brouht it up again. By the way, mentioning nambla is not a derrogatory remark. It is a factual part of this discussion which should be and will be brought up. And please do read the Book of Jude and memorize it. Let it trully speak to your heart about false doctinr ad false teachers who will twisst the Scriptures. Hopefully it will make some headway in the liberal/post modern way you think and express yourself on this site.
jc4me,
You said, “but i must point out, you forgot one more: NAMBLA… “
It appears that you’re obviously not paying any more attention to this conversation. Just dropping a derogatory statement here-n-there, letting everybody know you still exist, and that you still don’t like gays.
I know, I know… I’ll go read Jude again, so you don’t have to post it this time.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
ifeelfine wrote:
"jc4me - I don't know who Brian McLaren is. I'll check him out . . . I still need to check out joe dallas - I'll go to the bookstore this weekend and check."
Brian Mclaren is a heretic who has watered down Scriptures, and has a very liberal view on hell and homosexuality. He is one of the founders, and the leading voice in the post modern/extremely liberal emergent church movement which has sought out to rethink, and redefine Christianity, and the Bible. This is why I equated your views on promoting homosexuality with those of Brian McLaren. You can find out more about his extremely erroneous views as well as other heresies within the "emerging church movement" at www.understandthetimes.org; that is of course if you're trully willing to be exhorted in the truth of the Word of God.
Joe Dallas is the founder of Genesis Counseling which I think you should check out. I remember you said you had some homosexual friends, and i thought you might want to introduce them to this ministry. There is also Exodus International. And lastly, if you live in South Florida in the Ft. Lauderdale Area, there is also a ministry to the homosexual community called Worthy Creations at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church.
I hope this helps, and I'll be praying that you will come to a knowledge of the truth regarding this sin.
Taken from joe dallas's website: www.joedallas.com
"Joe Dallas' ministry in sexual addiction recovery and homosexuality is nationally recognized. He is the author of The Game Plan, The Men's 30-Day Strategy for Attaining Sexual Integrity (Thomas Nelson), and Program Director of Genesis Counseling in Tustin, California.
"No one understands the subject of sexual purity better than Joe Dallas." - Hank Hanegraaf, Host of The Bible Answer Man Show"
jester_in_the_Kings_court: you are so correct, but i must point out, you forgot one more:
NAMBLA which is also a very sick organization which doesn't get much play on the more secular progressive and liberal TV and Radio Stations, because obviusly, they don't think there is muc harm being done by this organization and the ones you mentioned. Thanks for presenting facts to ifeelfine who would rather dismiss the facts and present fiction as evidence in his quest to promote the homosexual agenda.
Ifeelfine, previously you made a comment to me saying that it was unloving to say there were liberal judges pushing for the homosexual agenda, and it seems that the organizations listed have proven that those organizations exist, and may I add, do have their own agenda.
ifeelfine, I really like your comment "You have no idea how stupid it looks to everyone when you talk about the "homosexual agenda" or the "homosexual movement." There is no such thing. There are no recruitment meetings, no meetings on formalizing any kind of agenda."
Ok..so here it goes...
Lambda Legal - Legal Help for LGBT People
Colage, For People with LGBT Parents
International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission
Servicemembers Legal Defense Network
Lambda Legal
National Gay & Lesbian Task Force (NGLTF)
Gay & Lesbians Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD)
Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN)
Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG)
Egale Canada
American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)
Stonewall Democrats
Log Cabin Republicans
Wow! So that's a lot of "no agendas" and " no homosexual movements".
ifeelfine72,
You said, “Homosexuality might not be in the majority but it is certainly normal. And every society has and had gay people. And with somewhere between 5-10% of the population I can't imagine societies going extinct specificallly because of that. It might be an evolutionary anomaly but it certainly isn't abnormal.”
You definitely bring to light some of the things that make my argument not so great. But still, I do think that the church at least should approach such an issue as this with trepidation, even if we were to determine that it’s just “cultural”, we in the church would still have to deal with Romans 14-15.
GMG,
I completely agree with ifeelfine72, stop trying to define all homosexuals by the example of some extremist group. You don’t like it when conservative Christians are defined by Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church, or Eric Rudolph and the Christian Identity movement (or at least I hope you don’t like it), so stop associating homosexuals with NAMBLA.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
GMG you right. one only needs to do a little research and one can find this agenda to make homosexaulity acceptable and main stream and special. one only needs to look to Canada, Sweden,England as well as others to see the repercussions of this homosexual agenda that ifeefine denies is there and Token agrees with. Token--- How is it affirmative action when you are giving someone special rights for something that is a choice, no matter how difficult it is. Oh well it is a fallen world indeed. Gods Blessing on you and yours
In Christ
Tom
GMG - It is ridiculous. You have no idea how stupid it looks to everyone when you talk about the "homosexual agenda" or the "homosexual movement." There is no such thing. There are no recruitment meetings, no meetings on formalizing any kind of agenda. There are gay people who are pretty passionate about their rights.
NAMBLA is a fringe group - certainly not part of any "gay agenda." Most gay people I know find that group as disturbing as the rest of us.
It's like equating all conservative Christians with people who blow up abortion clinics. If we're talking about conservative Christians, we have to talk about those people. Do you bomb abortion clinics, GMG? You can't bury your head in the sand to what other conservative Christians are doing . . . do you see how ridiculous and insulting that argument is?
What do they do? Do they take people to court to gain more rights? Do they try to pass hate crime laws? I happen to agree with these laws. I equate this to affirmative action.
Ifeelfine - you said "GMG - Stop throwing up strawmen. You keep equating gay people with pedophiles, NAMBLA, etc. That is a ridiculous arguement."
I don't "keep" equating gay people with pedophiles, NAMBLA, etc. This train of thought has come up as a natural progression in the discussion. And unfortunately, it is not ridiculous. I didn't invent this group, and their existence is a part of the homosexual movement. If you are going to discuss issues surrounding this lifestyle, can you really justify leaving this part out as if it doesn't exist? Hiding your head in the sand doesn't make it go away.
You tend to make statements and then refuse to discuss them. I am sorry that you find the subject of NAMBLA uncomfortable, and I can understand why it does, as it doesn't fit neatly into your assertions regarding homosexuality. Just as 1Cor 7:12-14 does not fit neatly into your ideas on marriage. You can't pick and choose what the Bible says about God's design for Hiis people.
TokenSP - you said "Im sorry what about them? A group for gays... if they've done something controversial you'll have to enlighten me.
NAMBLA stands for North American Man/Boy Love Association. You assert that a pedophile is evil, but homosexuality is not. This group makes it into the news even. Look up their web site. Then tell me what you think.
Ah token I wasn't talking about what you think but, what the worldview as presented by evolution theory holds to be evil, Under this then it would be then true. By the way I don't think that mentally impaired people are evil either, they didn't have choice in th matter. Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Tom
Well I take that back. Liberal Christians are quite adaptable to modern times... fundamentalists are what scare me...
To Tom;
To go by those standards it would be adequate to call mentally impaired people a hinderance to evolution therefore bad therefore evil. I do not find mentally impaired people to be evil, even though they do hinder the process of evolution.
To marantha
Giving lists of people who also disagree with the view of homosexuality does not validate that homosexuality is evil. And I know why it is bad in the Bible, it is bad because it is sin, but I contend that there is no reason given that justifies it as being evil. It is merely a couple living in peace whom love eachother dearly as any man and woman would. We are depriving people of the ability to be with whom they love. You tell me if you would not be infuriated if they didnt allow you to marry the man or woman you loved? Are these people not humans? Do you intend to keep putting through trials before they can ever attain what we already have? Imagine, your children could have turned out to be gay, and any child you may have is not free from this possibility. Unfortunately I realize that Christians do not interpret the world without the Bible for lense, and to me that only exemplifies the dangers religion pose on society =/.
GMG - Stop throwing up strawmen. You keep equating gay people with pedophiles, NAMBLA, etc. That is a ridiculous arguement.
jc4me - I don't know who Brian McLaren is. I'll check him out . . . I still need to check out joe dallas - I'll go to the bookstore this weekend and check.
maranatha7593 - Marriage has been defined as a man and a women forever? Check your facts, heck, read the Bible. Polygamy is certainly not a man and a woman - more like men and women! Ha
didymus - this might be the first time I disagree with you. Homosexuality might not be in the majority but it is certainly normal. And every society has and had gay people. And with somewhere between 5-10% of the population I can't imagine societies going extinct specificallly because of that. It might be an evolutionary anomaly but it certainly isn't abnormal.
Tom - evolution doesn't make moral judgments. Its a branch of biological science, not philosophy.
Token you ask if homosexaulity is evil outside of the Christian world view. I believe that one of the tenants of the atheistic worldview is evolution and one of the beliefs in evolution is survivable of the fittest. Life is spent trying to live eternally by procreating and giving our DNA to another combining them with the opposite sex thus creating a new life and achiving our goal. This is considered the norm and is good I suppose in the eyes of the evolutionists, it is the way it should happen. Otherwise the species goes no further and dies out. This is bad. So anything that hinders that process is considered bad. Homosexaulity will not further the species at all. It could be considered a determent to the evolution of the species, in this case mankind. So since for most people good= good and bad = evil and evil. would that not make homosexuality evil or wrong or sinful to the evolutionary worlview? (sin is really a archery term meaning missing the mark.) Is not homosexaulity missing the mark? sin? which is evil. food for thought
Gods blessing on you and yours
In Christ
Tom
TokenSP:
With all due respect, why should Christians view homosexuality (or any other issue, for that matter) apart from what the Bible says? When you come to a website which is frequented by Christians, do you expect Christians to disregard and put aside the standard of God's Word when discussing anything, including morality? If so, why?
Before I became a Christian, I did view issues through the lens of my own understanding, my own finite mind. But then my eyes were opened to understand that God's wisdom is as high above my own as the heavens are above the earth. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Wisdom and He enables Christians to view all issues, including morality, through God's perspective, as we fellowship with Him.
didymus:
Aren't Bible-believing Christians forced to pay (through taxes) community costs for 'Gay Pride' events, for tax-supported abortions, and other such things which grieve the heart of God?
ALERT: The BSA is NOT discriminating against homosexuals! They simply want to continue the exact policies they've had for more than 100 years. It is homosexuals who have invented this idea of so-called 'discrimination'. Does the BSA 'discriminate' against girls? Of course not!
The Supreme Court has affirmed the right of BSA to set their own standards, so what then gives Philadelphia City Solicitor Diaz the right to set a Dec. 3 deadline for the Boy Scouts to either renounce their moral standards or lose their OWN building they purchased themselves almost 80 years ago and have allowed the city to use all these years?
The Scouts had a lease “in perpetuity” with the city, an agreement that has not been upheld by the City Council.
Is it right for city (or any) government to dictate to a private group which is NOT supported by taxes what they can do with their OWN property and what they CANNOT do? Absolutely not.
If this ruling is allowed to go stand, what other private organizations will also be affected by this precedent? That would not be just. I am hoping the people of Philadelphia will wake up to this atrocity and put pressure on their city government leaders to do the RIGHT thing.
TokenSP:
Yes, homosexuality has been considered abnormal and sinful by other faiths besides Christianity. Islam is probably the most obvious example. And from antiquity, in every culture/faith, "marriage" has been defined as a binding union between a man and a woman.
The Bible defines all forms of immorality as sin, and not just sin, but sin against one's own body. Some forms of immorality are not only called sin in the Bible but are given the stronger term of abomination: Homosexuality, incest, and bestiality are on that list. Which means they are not only sins, they are abominable in God's sight.
Any sin which is not confessed and repented of will keep us from Heaven.
Im sorry what about them? A group for gays... if they've done something controversial you'll have to enlighten me.
Jester - I believe I detect the first stages of Alzheimers........so maybe not quite perfect? !!!!!
Didymus - you place yourself within the christian community, but you only use the Bible as a guide? And this makes sense because.............?
TokenSP - you said "So to answer your question, if a gene was found in a pedophile that would justify why he did what he did, would I find it to be an acceptable behavior? Quite not at all... because children have not the mind nor the strength to overcome advances by fully grown adults. It is evil it is wrong. Homosexuality on the other hand has no such comparable characterstic."
Ok, so explain NAMBLA.
Didymus said,
"I feel your pain. I say this only half in jest, but I don’t think these guys even have it in them to understand. I’m willing to bet that every one of these guys believes in creation science (or at least intelligent design)."
It is particularly funny that one would accuse posters on a site entitled "The Christian Post" as believing in Creation! It is along the same lines of telling an athiest to stand strong and firm in his faith.
"Darwin is evil, science in general is evil, separation of church and state is evil. Why?"
I don't think Darwin is evil....just not correct. As far as seperation of church and state....if you are referring to the Constitution and the First admendment where it provides that the Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..I agree!! I don't want a state ran church.
"Because nothing is outside of their interpretation of the bible. For them the bible is not just a “guide” to God’s thoughts or a narrative of God’s interaction with humanity, it is much more than that, for them the bible is itself science, the bible is law, the bible is all encompassing."
So, as a Christian, I should chunk the Bible, even though the Bible is the foundation of Christian belief. The Christian belief tells me the Bible is the inspired word of God. Wow!!(slaps palm to forehead!!) Christians should just look at the Bible as a narrative and not a divine work. Bolderdash!! The Bible is an inspiration, a source of comfort, a guide of the way we should live, a prayer manual, an answer to life's problems, it is the Christian's owners manual and the wellspring we draw from.
"So, when you asked your question about whether homosexuality would still be considered evil if the Bible had not said so, if there was some outside source to point to its inherent evilness, the answer is quite impossible for them to even imagine."
You see Didymus, everyone who has posted here has respect your opinions. You and others have raised questions, in which we answered, with answers based on our beliefs which encompasses the Bible. These little jabs by you are uncalled for and quite frankly, childish...i.e(the quibs with "these guys " "not finding answers here on the Christian Post" and "the answer is quite impossible for them to even imagine" ). I find it very offensive, as well as an assualt on our collective intelligence. I bid you good day.
didymus:
"I didn’t flag you, but someone obliviously more righteous than I did :^)"
Oh. so it must have been me then! hahaha. o wait...why would I flag myself? I don't think i've ever said anything that's convicted myself....i'm perfect!
Well...mostly perfect. somewhat perfect...
kinda...perfect?
good enough?
TokenSP,
You said, “And my pooint in saying to look at this without the Bible was to try and get you guys to see my point of view... and the point of view of hundreds others... if you do not wish to walk in our shoes, why should anyone else walk in yours? lol unfortunately I forget myself.. you guys are the majority =/.”
I feel your pain. I say this only half in jest, but I don’t think these guys even have it in them to understand. I’m willing to bet that every one of these guys believes in creation science (or at least intelligent design). Darwin is evil, science in general is evil, separation of church and state is evil. Why? Because nothing is outside of their interpretation of the bible. For them the bible is not just a “guide” to God’s thoughts or a narrative of God’s interaction with humanity, it is much more than that, for them the bible is itself science, the bible is law, the bible is all encompassing. So, when you asked your question about whether homosexuality would still be considered evil if the Bible had not said so, if there was some outside source to point to its inherent evilness, the answer is quite impossible for them to even imagine.
As for my own answer to your original question, I know there is nothing out there that says homosexuality, in and of itself, is evil, except for maybe one thing… I’ll call it tradition. For thousands of years homosexuality has been considered evil, in various cultures, and not just biblically oriented ones (of course there are significant exceptions, classical Greece for instance), and that tradition has developed itself for both good and bad reasons, as control valves on societies to protect them from danger. Look at it this way, I’m using an evolutionary argument for tradition here, survival of the fittest kind of thing, those cultures that accepted homosexuality have in a sense naturally selected themselves right on out of history.
Now I’m not saying this is a great argument, but I personally don’t think we should just toss out thousands of years of tradition without a very good reason for doing so. Having said that, I do think the church needs to take a serious look at itself, its culture, its bias’s, both in its history and its scriptures, in order to really grasp that which animates the letter in the Bible. Maybe our view really is wrong, maybe it really is just culture speaking and not God, or maybe the answer is something more nuanced than just a simple reversal of position. (Unfortunately, you won’t find any of the here on the Christian Post.)
jester_in_the_Kings_court,
I didn’t flag you, but someone obliviously more righteous than I did :^)
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
GMG...
That's what's so sad. I don't remember what I wrote! hahaha. But it wasn't that bad. Probably someone got convicted and flagged me. it's a taste of what's to come in the future, eh?
Sociopaths are sociopaths by nature. It is an attribute of their character, it is in their genes. Do I believe they should roam the streets? Dear God (no pun intended) no. Why? Because they have within them the ability to harm a person with out a single ounce of remorse, all for the pleasure of doing it. It is in their genes, and yet we still jail and even kill them. So to answer your question, if a gene was found in a pedophile that would justify why he did what he did, would I find it to be an acceptable behavior? Quite not at all... because children have not the mind nor the strength to overcome advances by fully grown adults. It is evil it is wrong. Homosexuality on the other hand has no such comparable characterstic.
ifeelfine72: sounds like you're getting your biblical interpretation from all of the liberal/progressive people like Brian McLaren.
What you have in Romans 1: 18-32 is the natural course that sin takes in a person. Was Paul talking about sin(sexual immorality) as it relates to pagan rituals. No. It is much, much more than that. Paul, gives us a commentary on how sin runs it's course in society, corrupting everybody involved and is suprisingly accurate in how it relates to us today. In my opinion, if Paul had meant this to be only about pagan sex practices he would not have been so specific and deliberate in how he presents his words.
Ok Token, calm down. But do answer me this question. If there is a gene found to predispose a person to be a pedophile, would you then determine that it was acceptable behavior. And why or why not?
Jester - I'm innocent. So what did you say that was so flaggable?
Romans 1:28-29: "28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."
Man is given to a depraved mind. Sin involves both a man’s morals and his mind. What a man thinks and how he lives are very much interrelated. Rejecting the truth about God (mental) led to moral depravity. Immoral conduct also affects the mind—man’s ability to think straight. And so the rejection of God’s revelation has led, Paul writes, to “futile speculations” and a heart that is “darkened” (verse 21). When men reach the point that they refuse “to acknowledge God any longer,” they are given over “to a depraved mind” (verse 28), leading to the practice of those things which are improper. If men will not act properly toward God, based upon His self-revelation, then God will give men over so that they fail to act properly toward one another. Men now, by their conduct, not only defile and dishonor themselves, they are a plague to society. The outcome is a long list of sinful attitudes, dispositions, and practices, all of which are destructive. The sins range from those which we do not take too seriously (gossip, for example—see verse 30), to those which we consider abominable (murder, for instance—see verse 29).
Romans 1: 24-32 Lays out 3 Present manifistations of God's Wrath.
Romans 1: 24-25: "24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. "
Man is given over to his natural desires. The first manifestation of God’s present wrath is described in verses 24 and 25. Men have rejected the truth of God and exchanged it for a lie. They have chosen to worship the creature, rather than the Creator (verse 25). Because of their rejection of God’s revelation of Himself, God “gave them over” to their own natural, fleshly lusts. The result of this judgment is that men, by sinning in this way, dishonor their own bodies. Would men refuse to honor God? God gives men over to their own lusts so that they dishonor themselves. Would men honor themselves, by exchanging the glory of an “incorruptible God” for their own corruptible image and likeness (1:23)? God will give them over to sin, so that their image is dishonored. How men treat God, in God’s justice, becomes the standard for the way in which God allows men to treat themselves.
Romans 1: 26-27: "26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."
Man perverts the revelation of God in nature. Man’s worship of God is perverted to the worship of nature, rather than of the God who created all. Is it any wonder that God would choose to turn men over to sin in such a way as to let men act in an unnatural way? And so, while some men are given over to their natural desires (normal sexual appetites and unions with the opposite sex), others, described in verses 26 and 27, are given over to unnatural, perverted desires (appetites and sexual unions with the same sex). The resulting defilement is represented by Paul as a divine judgment: “receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error”
Romans 1: 18: "18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,"
This is a general statement describing the present wrath of God as a necessary response of a righteous and just God to man's sin.All mankind is guilty before God and deserving of His wrath, because men are suppressing God’s truth by means of their own sin.
Romans 1: 19-20: "19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
God is invisible, and His attributes or characteristics can only be seen indirectly. His attributes can only be seen through the revelation of His world, His work in the world, or His Word. Because these truths are self-evident, man is without excuse.
Romans 1:21:"For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
Man’s response to these truths about God is also self-evident. God’s character, as revealed in His creation, prompts men to honor Him and to give thanks to Him. This, men did not, and will not, do. As a result of man’s sin, the truth of God is perverted, and exchanged for that which is more suited to man’s liking.
Romans 1:22: "22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,"
This is self explanatory. We give up the wisdom God makes available to us in exchange for our own fallible wisdom.
Romas1:23: "23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. '
Man was made in God’s image, to reflect His glory. Instead, man bows down to his own glory, and then to the creatures over whom he was commanded to rule. The order God established at creation has thereby been turned upside-down.
don't make me call down the wrath of God on y'all.
ok...who flagged me? and why?
What in the name of all that is.... I told you guys I conceded defeat on that arguement.. JC4 I told you rabbi elizier thats the only person I knew at the time, I wont name anymore because I've already dropped the arguement and conceded defeat in that respect. Im not going to try and look anyone else up to prove a point I no longer wish to prove. to the watch and gmg, homosexuality being unnatural only proves at best that it is a strange thing to happen at best, but to equate it with evil is a stretch by all means. The only basis for calling it evil is that it is a sin, and that is hardly a basis for anything if you concede that God's morality is arbitrary. Again, I agree that the scripture says its immoral, and again I said I concede defeat with the scriptures I gave on matthews. I KNOW WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS! what I am saying is that it is arbitrary and therefore meaningless, because there is nothing inherently evil to be found. Again it is unnatural but in the sense that it is strange and unusual. And it is not something that doesnt happen in nature because there are hundreds upon hundreds of cases of homosexuals in the animal kingdom. And my pooint in saying to look at this without the Bible was to try and get you guys to see my point of view... and the point of view of hundreds others... if you do not wish to walk in our shoes, why should anyone else walk in yours? lol unfortunately I forget myself.. you guys are the majority =/.
GMG said: "You have been given lots of scripture for our belief, and there have been a lot of arguments about translation etc., but one scripture has yet to be really contested, and that is the one in Romans."
I won't contest scripture but I do offer a different interpretation and one that is quite reasonable. You need to look at the context of the scripture to know what Paul was talking about. Look at the first word of verse 24 "Therefore" and the first few words of verse 26 "Because of this." Those couple of terms give context to that scripture. He is referring to what happens in verses 18-20. It is my understanding that Paul was talking about pagan rituals here that involved heterosexual people engaged in homosexual acts for ritualistic purposes.
Only the Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can cleanse us of all unrighteousness and filthy sin - this does include many other things, but as it pertains to this article - adultery, fornication, and yes, homosexuality. Too many in today's church want to cover up sin, and be politically relevent to today's "culture". They water-down the Wrod of God, and twist it to make it seem more "pleasant" to the ears. Many people want to hear what feesds their ego; they don;t want to hear the truth that transforms lives for their own good and for God's pleasure.
The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us are without sin. The Good News is that Jesus Christ became God in the flesh for us! He decended from his exalted heavenly place, and willfully shed His Prescious Blood and gave up His life so that we may have a relationship with God the Father our Creator.
We need to first acknowledge that we are all sinners; we need to repent - that is to literally and willfully choose to turn away from our old life of living in sins; we need to ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior of our lives (this means we hand over our free will to Him, and choose toi obey His commands and teachings). We must put our total trust and confidence ino Him, and then follow Him.
The question is, have we trully repented, and turned back from our sin. That is to say, if we're willfully, and rebelliously living in sin, have we made a conscious choice to turn from that sin, die to ourselves, pick up our crosses daily and follow Christ?
None of these sins are unpardonable, but God has given us a free choice. We must choose this day whom we will serve. Are we going to choose to gratify our flesh and live in sin, or are we going to die to ourselves, and choose to follow Christ Jesus?
Whoever doesn't truly know Christ on this site, please give your life to him. You will not regret it. He will never bring up your past. We all have pasts, but God can make you a new person, and as you continue to seek after Him and as you surrender your life to Him, He will continue to mold you and make you into the vessel of honor He wants you to be. I hope this touches someone out there, and may the Lord turn your heart to repentance. God Bless You.
Jester in the Kings court, the Watch and GMG, as well as Prophet - Amen and Amen. The Word of God is to be taken in context so that the whole counsel of God is preached; not just the tidbits that people seeking to twist the Scriptures want to hear. Thanks for your steadfastness in the Word brother's.
Token SP
You said "Eh... I agree except that there have been famous Christians who believed that it meant people who were born gay. They had assumed this before the whole case with homosexuality arose. So while now it may seem like gays are just trying to stretch the truth, it would seem that they believed this before it was even an issue. I really have no extensive knowledge of this passage or the people who believed it.. Anyways ya.. thats it.. "
One homosexual rabbi is not "famous christians". In the past you have told us that in a psychology class you had learned that gays were born gay. Has it occurred to you that maybe it is possible that there have been so many sweeping statements, and odd little tidbits of information thrown together, that have fostered such a view? It has nowhere been proved one way or another whether there is a genetic basis for any of this.
The idea has been presented in multiple formats that the "I've know this since I was little" claim, or "why would God make me this way", could as easily be applied to pedophiles and others, and yet we certainly agree that THAT would be immoral, unnatural, wrong, etc. Is anyone looking for a genetic basis to prove a genetic basis for pedophiles, and if it WAS proven, would we then accept it?
You have been given lots of scripture for our belief, and there have been a lot of arguments about translation etc., but one scripture has yet to be really contested, and that is the one in Romans. The Bible is to be read, in context, taking all of the references to a certain subject into consideration, to understand God's word. You'll have to do that for yourself now, you have plenty of information to work with.
didymus...
why do you care if jc4me repeats Jude? It wont convict you. You have no conscience to convict!
TokenSP, said
"Besides it being "unnatural" there is no evil aspect to it other than it is detested in the Bible."
"Adultry is not in the same category with homosexuality in the secular view, and the question is not whether or not homosexuality is a sin but rather is it evil outside the confines of the Bible."
Once again, as a Christian, one cannot look at this without the Word of God. To look at this in a secular sense, then we begin to draw lines in the sand at not only what is and what isn't a bigger wrong, but I say that philosophy is inherently wrong itself. If you drop chocolate syrup onto your white shirt, is it stained? If you drop a half of bottle of chocolate syrup on your shirt, is stained? They are both equally stained. Sin opposes what is God and seperates Him from us. That is evil. For a Christian to try and justify a sin without the Bible would also take away the promise of redemption through the saving Grace of Jesus, To take that away would be a grievous path, indeed. If you have deemed it "unnatural", then you have agreed it is against nature, so it is wrong, corrupt or a moral terpitude. There had to be a basis for that conclusion of "unnatural." So there is a benchmark. Funny thing is most secularist would argue about keeping the Gov't out of the bedroom but force an opinion based on political correctness.
Didymus, your refusal to answer the questions just says that you wanted to prove your point as well, that you are a liberal/post modern christian who would rather accept some humaistic aspects of this world in their theology and is not willing to debate on facts, but rather on what the current culture dictates. Many people on this site have proved to you why homosexuality is a si bot biblically and logically. they ave also proved to both yourself ad ifeelfine72 why the boy scouts ave a right to their building. if tat's not enough, then you are etitled to your opinion, and God does give us free wll to believe whatever we want, but absolute truth of od's Word will always stand true, as well as t test of time.
Please answer GMG's question and stop dodging it like most of the liberals in our govermet try doig wen direct factual questions are addressed to them. As for quoting the Book of Jude and about the false teachers among us, i have already done so twice on 2 seperate boards, and while i can say that I'm well acquainted with your antagonism, as are many other conservative born again Christians who have already exposed that the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin, i think you're smart enough to go lok for it in the Bible yourself.
As for this quote from you:
"Jc4me,
That’s second time you’ve posted those. I now, because I read them first time."
your name is not Token SP, and since he is also dodging my question as well as I might add the question you had asked him, ten it remains to still be unanswered. If you're gnna say something on a bord ad call it factual, ad plat a little seed of doubt in peoples heads, then please be repared to back up the statement. that is all we are asking for. It is called intellectual honesty my friend. intellectual honesty. something may liberals don't yet understand.
Token SP, you still have not answered my question that i have thus far posted twice. If you're going to make a statement, please be courteous enought to say where you get your facts. If you heard what you said somewhere, then please e honest enouh to answer it. I know you're an atheist because you said you were, but please, if you're gona say things, then please at least tell us where you're quoting stuff from, or whether it is heresay, or supposition, or not fact at all. thank you. here is your quote, ad here is my second time around question to you.
Token SP wrote:
"Eh... I agree except that there have been famous Christians who believed that it meant people who were born gay. They had assumed this before the whole case with homosexuality arose. So while now it may seem like gays are just trying to stretch the truth, it would seem that they believed this before it was even an issue. I really have no extensive knowledge of this passage or the people who believed it.. Anyways ya.. thats it.. "
Token SP:
Would you please provide us with names of early church fathers (which you claim had stated that people were born gay) who were present at the agreement to put the cannonical Scriptures together (not the gnostic gospels of course - we know those were written several hundred years after the eye witness accouts of the Apostles, etc)
I'm really interested to see if maybe your getting your info from the discovery channel, some davinci code lie, or some other secular TV show which will be opposingly biased to biblical Christianity. Really, i would like to know names, and years in which they stated this in writting, or otherwise, or if this is just another thing thrown out there on national TV by some Darwinian who knows nothing about Creation and seeking to debunk our faith
lol and yes rabbi would make him jewish, and the person who argued those points of bible saying people were born gay was proposed by a gay person. I simply wanted to see what you would say in response to it. I am no proponent of that view, but then again I am no proponent of the Bible either... But I will admit defeat in that matter :).
Also one final note lol.. sorry I keep posting, the reason I have no sympathy for Christians view on homosexuality is because I dont see an adequate answer to the question I just posed... In any case the issue bears little importance to me... although im sure it should, I am just more interested in studying and such than attaing rights and things of that nature... but it pays to be informed ^^.
And if you are goin to say homosexuality is evil give me specific details as to what aspect of it is evil and try to show me your logical progression to your conclusion. Remember the question, Is what God commands moral because he commands it, or does God command it because it is moral?
Well ^^ it would seem to me that this discussion has gone a turn for the worse... and it is no longer productive =[. I have to admit though that I stopped trying after no one would give me a straight forth answer to whether or not homosexuality would be moral outside the confines of christianity... Besides it being "unnatural" there is no evil aspect to it other than it is detested in the Bible. The only answer to this question was comparing it to other things, but that impllies things that I quite fralky dont agree with. Adultry is not in the same category with homosexuality in the secular view, and the question is not whether or not homosexuality is a sin but rather is it evil outside the confines of the Bible. Anyways, I hope to see you guys again ^^ thanks for the chat ~
Didymus -
Balderdash, and you still didn't address it, you skipped over it. Yep, I don't want the homosexual agenda shoved down my throat, and no one but the city tried to make an issue of the BSA and rightfully so, as they (the BSA) don't shove their view down the public's throat. I guess the real moral of this story is, don't donate anything to any governmental entity unless you're willing to have them renege on their agreements under the guise of political correctness.
What a wishy-washy "whatever benefits me" world we live in.
Even so, come Lord Jesus!
Hay, wait a second... jc4me, you still haven't posted a repeat of Jude for me. I thought we were friends :^)
jester_in_the_Kings_court,
You said, “Sounds to me like you're doing the same thing, my friend. You're not interested in anyone elses "POV", just making sure everyone knows what you think.”
Well, if I did want to prove my point of view, I’d answer his question, but I don’t feel I need to prove it, so… and I’m not making fun of him, he has a serious question, and I’m not making light of it, I’m just not going to answer it.
You also mention, “You are no better than her.”
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
GMG,
You mention, “So my question is, is reverse discrimination to be tolerated? For goodness sakes, can you imagine the furor if this was a gay group with a binding agreement being tossed out for their views? In all honesty, can't you see the bias?”
Yes, I can, conservative Christians would be ecstatically overjoyed that their tax dollars would no longer be financing “the homosexual agenda” (and don’t get wrong, I’d be happy too, I don’t want my tax dollars subsidizing the gay communities institutions just as much as I don’t want my tax dollars subsidizing a religious communities institutions.)
And I think it’s important to note that opposing discrimination is not the same as reverse discrimination (for example: opposing racism, is not being racist against racists.) The Christian community (of which I am a part) has this persecution complex in which it paints itself as the victim. But it’s like we can’t see ourselves for who we really are. In reality we are probably the most powerful single political bloc in America today. We victimize others with impunity. But when one little thing doesn’t go our way, we cry.
Anyway, I can see from maranatha7593’s post that even my non-answer is too controversial; he has already gone over into the rhetoric of “atrocity”.
Sorry GMG, till another time, have fun :^)
Jc4me,
That’s second time you’ve posted those. I now, because I read them first time.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
Token SP wrote:
"Eh... I agree except that there have been famous Christians who believed that it meant people who were born gay. They had assumed this before the whole case with homosexuality arose. So while now it may seem like gays are just trying to stretch the truth, it would seem that they believed this before it was even an issue. I really have no extensive knowledge of this passage or the people who believed it.. Anyways ya.. thats it.. "
Token SP:
Would you please provide us with names of early church fathers (which you claim had stated that people were born gay) who were present at the agreement to put the cannonical Scriptures together (not the gnostic gospels of course - we know those were written several hundred years after the eye witness accouts of the Apostles, etc)
I'm really interested to see if maybe your getting your info from the discovery channel, some davinci code lie, or some other secular TV show which will be opposingly biased to biblical Christianity. Really, i would like to know names, and years in which they stated this in writting, or otherwise, or if this is just another thing thrown out there on national TV by some Darwinian who knows nothing about Creation and seeking to debunk our faith.
I am convinced Jesus will return soon for His Bride, and we are living in the end times brother, and make no mistake about it, the "emergent conversation", the "emergent church", the COEXIST Movement, and BOno from U2 along with the Rick Warrens of the world with their social gospel are creating a "bridge" between Christianity and Eaastern as well as Catholic Mysticism wich is really new age.
Read up more on the social liberalism of the emergent church, and the many seductive false doctrines such as contemplative prayer (which is really eastern mysticism), the bringing back of icons to "feel" God move in people's midsts, you can eve read up on Brian Mclaren's (The man who is credited to being the founder of this liberal church movement) view, as well as many of their leaders views on hell and homosexuality, and you will see they are totally extra biblical. you can find more info on this at www.understandthetimes.org, and www.apprising.org.
The emergent church preaches an extra biblical gospel that is more in line with the new age than it is with Sound Doctrine based Biblical Christianity. Many of them - to mention one - Tony Campolo recently told a young reader how to have a born again experience thru contemplative prayer! Imagine that, the Bible says there is only one way to God and that is Jesus Christ, and here is a so called evangelical preacher (not really evangelical even though he calls himself this) and he is teaching an eastern mystical practice taught in the Roman Catholic Church and the Jessuit Order. Now imagine that, he is adoptig practices from a church that teaches the deification of Mary as being co-redemptrix with Christ. This is heresy my brother, and we need to exhort others in love, and pray for their eyes to be quickly opened to this deception in the church; that they may see this for what it is, and that the Holy Spirit in mercy and grace may convict their hearts to repent and come back.
didymus:
Aren't Bible-believing Christians forced to pay (through taxes) community costs for 'Gay Pride' events, for tax-supported abortions, and other such things which grieve the heart of God?
ALERT: The BSA is NOT discriminating against homosexuals! They simply want to continue the exact policies they've had for more than 100 years. It is homosexuals who have invented this idea of so-called 'discrimination'. Does the BSA 'discriminate' against girls? Of course not!
The Supreme Court has affirmed the right of BSA to set their own standards, so what then gives Philadelphia City Solicitor Romulo Diaz the right to set a Dec. 3 deadline for the Boy Scouts to either renounce their moral standards or lose their OWN building they purchased themselves almost 80 years ago and have allowed the city to use all these years?
Yes, that sounds like Gestapo tactics to me -- especially since the Beaux-Arts building was in fact built by the Scouts and later given to the city in 1928. The Scouts had a lease “in perpetuity” with the city, an agreement that has not been upheld by the City Council.
Is it right for city (or any) government to dictate to a private group which is NOT supported by taxes what they can do with their OWN property and what they CANNOT do? Absolutely not.
If this ruling is allowed to go stand, what other private organizations will also be affected by this precedent? That would not be just. I am hoping the people of Philadelphia wake up to this atrocity and put pressure on their city government leaders to do the RIGHT thing.
Didymus -
Nope, you're wrong, I'm not trying to shove anything down your throat. If there was a HSA (homosexual scouts of america :) ) and they had built a building and turned it over to the city with a binding agreement such as this, I would feel exactly the same way. My POV is that if it's an issue that christians feel strongly about there is a tendency to throw these things under a category of "intolerance". Don't call me intolerant because I don't want special treatment for homosexuals because they are homosexual. So my question is, is reverse discrimination to be tolerated? For goodness sakes, can you imagine the furor if this was a gay group with a binding agreement being tossed out for their views? In all honesty, can't you see the bias?
didymus....
I've been watching what's been going on here. It's funny that you accuse and make fun of GMG saying "It doesn't appear to me that you're really interested in really understanding other points of views (while keeping your own), but rather just want to "prove" your POV (and basically shove it down my throat.) ... "
Sounds to me like you're doing the same thing, my friend. You're not interested in anyone elses "POV", just making sure everyone knows what you think. You are no better than her.
GMG,
You asked, "Hey Didymus, you going to answer my question?"
Naa, I'm not going to bother. What would be the point of doing so? It doesn't appear to me that you're really interested in really understanding other points of views (while keeping your own), but rather just want to "prove" your POV (and basically shove it down my throat.) ... Anyway, I think I've read enough of your POV to know what it is... and I understand your position... to continue would probably only digress into you and I talking past each other. Talk to later, under another article.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
Oh and Token, you do realize that a "rabbi" is Jewish, not Christian. Unless he is a Messianic Jew, in which case he would be a Christian.
TokenSP - There are ways that someone can be born a eunich. There are, of course, congenital abnormalities, and one disease that comes easily to mind is diabetes. Anything else that interferes with circulation or nervous system response are also good possibilities. I am sure there are more, such as problems with testosterone production.
Hey Didymus, you going to answer my question?
yes, they were eunichs in spirit, first. Just as in Ephesians 1 it says "...According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will..."
My life was already predestined before the worlds were created. So who I am is from birth. Just as the eunichs were called before they were born, so they are eunichs from birth.
But the point that i was saying was being stretched was saying that "eunich" meant "homosexual". The two greek words are "eunouchos" and "eunouchizo". eunouchizo seems to be a verb meaning to castrate or live unmarried. eunouchos is the noun...someone who is castrated or unmarried.
Where the person got "homosexual" from that is beyond me. And it doesn't even necessarily mean that they were castrated.
I know little of Rabbi Eliezer but that was the person I was referring to..
Well ok.. I quickly read over this passage and so it hadnt occured to me to look further into his integerity but the person was Rabbi Eliezer. Also I would like to point out that Jesus said that there were two types of Eunuch, one who had this done to them by other men (if they were castrated at birth it would be by other men) and Eunuch who were born that way ( i.e. not by other men :P)
Again: the Greek word "Arsenokoites" is a compound word, made from the combination of "Arsen" (male) and "Koites" (sexual union - where we get the word 'coitus'). so to all the so called progressive "christians" who's liberal interpretations of the word will twist the Scriptures to mean what they want them to mean in the post modern world, you would have to really smear the facts in order to come up with the lie that homosexuality is not a sin mentioned in the Bible.
Prophet wrote:
"wow, token. I know you probably don't subscribe to that view, but that is really streeeeeeeeeeetching it to make some weak connection. To be a eunich from birth, as I understand it, is just that they were castrated at birth. Simple. Believable. Logical."
Prophet, this mentality that Token SP who appears to be an atheist is using is the same liberal mentality that many liberal/progressive "gay christian" churches seem to teach. they stretch the words to mean what people in today's post modern culture want them to mean.
Token SP:
Please get names of early church fathers (which you claim had stated that people were born gay) who were present at the agreement to put the cannonical Scriptures together (not the gnostic gospels of course - we kow those were written several hundred years after the eye witness accouts of the Apostles, etc)
I'm really interested to see if maybe your getting your info from the discovery channel, some davinci code lie, or some other secular TV show which will be opposingly biased to biblical Christianity. Really, i would like to know names, and years in which they stated this in writting, or otherwise, or if this is just another thing thrown out there on national TV by some Darwinian who knows nothing about Creation and seeking to debunk our faith.
TokenSP,
You mention, “I agree except that there have been famous Christians who believed that it meant people who were born gay.”
Hmm… interesting. I’ll have to look up the church fathers and other early church writings and see what they comment on the passage, and see if any of them came to that conclusion. Do have any names on those “famous Christians” who believed that?
Eh... I agree except that there have been famous Christians who believed that it meant people who were born gay. They had assumed this before the whole case with homosexuality arose. So while now it may seem like gays are just trying to stretch the truth, it would seem that they believed this before it was even an issue. I really have no extensive knowledge of this passage or the people who believed it.. Anyways ya.. thats it..
wow, token. I know you probably don't subscribe to that view, but that is really streeeeeeeeeeetching it to make some weak connection. To be a eunich from birth, as I understand it, is just that they were castrated at birth. Simple. Believable. Logical.
GMG: your right, and many liberals will claim that conservatives are "smearing" when in fact they are just laying out the facts on the table.
Now.. this is something I've never do, and I really dont wish to make a habbit of doing but here we go... Basically, marraige is very strict you marry and are never allowed to divorce... so Jesus's disciples were a little shocked by how strict Jesus was on this issue... they said well maybe its better not to marry... and so Jesus responded by saying not everyone can marry... you can interpret that in many different ways... but in one passage rather three.. he uses the word 'eunuch' He says there are some made that way by others, some made that way for the kingdom of heaven and then there are some from birth... Basically the arguement used here is that while this process of becomming an eunuch may be castration, it would be very rare if ever for someoen to be born that way... So people of all different backgrounds have intrepreted as Gays. The passage is Matthew 19:10-12
10The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." 11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[a] because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
So there ou have it.... look it up some more see what preists say about the phrase... if you disagree with me...
TokenSP, you wrote "There are many people who dont want to be gay but have you ever heard of a gay person going straight? And i once heard that jesus said gays were born gay.... I can look that up if you would like.
Along with info Tom has given, also try joedallas.com. He was gay and involved in a "christian" church that believed this lifestyle was biblically okay. Given your feelings as listed on numerous posts, this should be a particularly good place for you to look into. In addition, I also would appreciate information on where in the Bible Jesus says people are born gay.
Didymus - you ask if homesexuals should have to pay tax $ for (BSA) groups that discriminate against them. Have you missed the fact that the building was built by the BSA and then given to the city with the agreement of a lifetime lease? Does the city then have the right to renege on a legal agreement in order to discriminate against the BSA - and considering the Supreme Court said that they had a right to their viewpoint?
The same hold true to many of the so called christians on this site that will excuse homosexuality as not being sin. we are to love the homosexual, but we are to hate the lifestyle. Jesus extended compassion to the woman at the well, and showed her grace and mercy, but he said "go and sin no more". there needs to be repentance where there is sin. otherwise, what makes the church any different from the world.
I am convinced Jesus will return soon for His Bride, and we are living in the end times brother, and make no mistake about it, the "emergent conversation", the "emergent church", the COEXIST Movement, and BOno from U2 along with the Rick Warrens of the world with their social gospel are creating a "bridge" between Christianity and Eaastern as well as Catholic Mysticism wich is really new age.
Read up more on the social liberalism of the emergent church, and the many seductive false doctrines such as contemplative prayer (which is really eastern mysticism), the bringing back of icons to "feel" God move in people's midsts, you can eve read up on Brian Mclaren's (The man who is credited to being the founder of this liberal church movement) view, as well as many of their leaders views on hell and homosexuality, and you will see they are totally extra biblical. you can find more info on this at www.understandthetimes.org, and www.apprising.org.
The emergent church preaches an extra biblical gospel that is more in line with the new age than it is with Sound Doctrine based Biblical Christianity. Many of them - to mention one - Tony Campolo recently told a young reader how to have a born again experience thru contemplative prayer! Imagine that, the Bible says there is only one way to God and that is Jesus Christ, and here is a so called evangelical preacher (not really evangelical even though he calls himself this) and he is teaching an eastern mystical practice taught in the Roman Catholic Church and the Jessuit Order. Now imagine that, he is adoptig practices from a church that teaches the deification of Mary as being co-redemptrix with Christ. This is heresy my brother, and we need to exhort others in love, and pray for their eyes to be quickly opened to this deception in the church; that they may see this for what it is, and that the Holy Spirit in mercy and grace may convict their hearts to repent and come back.
the Greek word "Arsenokoites" is a compound word, made from the combination of "Arsen" (male) and "Koites" (sexual union - where we get the word 'coitus'). so to all the so called progressive "christians" who's liberal interpretations of the word will twist the Scriptures to mean what they want them to mean in the post modern world, you would have to really smear the facts in order to come up with the lie that homosexuality is not a sin mentioned in the Bible.
John5796,
Nice smear with the NAMBLA comment, but it is just a smear. That’s like me saying your church is cult group. So when are you going to drink the cool-aid?
Personally, I don’t think smear tactics and propaganda are very becoming of Christians, Jesus doesn’t need that kind of stuff to defend his name.
maranatha7593 (& braveheart as well)
You mention, “The Supreme Court has affirmed the right of BSA to set their own standards, so I do wonder why Philadelphia City Solicitor Romulo Diaz said the group’s currently policy amounts to discrimination and has set a Dec. 3 deadline for the Boy Scouts to either renounce their moral standards or lose the headquarters they have rented from the city for $1 a year since 1928.”
Basically, it appears the reason Philadelphia ruled that way is because, once you sit down and crunch the cost accounting numbers, the homosexual community is paying the BSA to discriminate against.
Ultimately, the issue at hand is: should the homosexual community be forced to pay (through taxes) Christian groups that discriminate against them, and judge them, an tell them they are going to hell?
To reword this into a question you can ask yourself: Should homosexuals have to pay (as in $) for the gospel that you want to give them?
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
Flagged as inappropriate. show When they started their public campaign for acceptability, homosexuals said they were not after the kids. Yet since then they have gone all the way to the Supreme Court to try to legally open the door to access to our "morally straight" young boys. They were unsucessful. Now they have burrowed their way into our local , state and federal governments, and are attempting to use their combined leverage to force their obscene will upon the people who HAVE children, and upon the children themselves. People of America, don't allow them access to our children. Protect the Boy Scouts of America. Philadelphia, demonstrate and protest! Put your children in Christian schools. Decent people, run for local office. Demand that our governments respect decency! hide
Like foxes in a henhouse - who would send their young son to a place with a bunch of perverts running around. Has anyone heard of NAMBLA? Do a google search and see for yourself.
All, For a good understanding of the issue of whether one is born homesexual or if it is due to enviroment please check out www.narth.com. There is also many testimonies about people changing their orientation. check out the study "ex-gay a longitudinal study of religiously mediated change in sexual orientation" by Jones and Yarthouse. You will see there evidence for this change at least to those who want to get out of that life stlye. Also the web sites of Exodus international and Love won out. Gods Blessing on you and yours.
In Christ
Tom
TokenSP, if people are born with a predilection to child molestation, do we then make it legal? Do we pass laws to allow them to "marry" those children? All people are born in sin, and only Jesus can save us from the power of sin and the desire to sin.
Yes, I do know people who have been delivered from homosexuality and are now straight. They are active in ministry to people who have struggled with it as well, and have seen many others experience that same deliverance.
Please do look that up, where you say Jesus said homosexuals were born that way. I would like to have that reference. I do know He confirmed that God made man and woman and ordained that marriage from the beginning.
But, really, to be quite honest, all this debate has nothing to do with this particular news story. This article is about the right of a private organization to abide by THEIR OWN RULES and not be dictated to by the government.
The Supreme Court has affirmed the right of BSA to set their own standards, so I do wonder why Philadelphia City Solicitor Romulo Diaz said the group’s currently policy amounts to discrimination and has set a Dec. 3 deadline for the Boy Scouts to either renounce their moral standards or lose the headquarters they have rented from the city for $1 a year since 1928.
That sounds like Gestapo tactics to me -- especially since the Beaux-Arts building was in fact built by the Scouts and later given to the city in 1928. The Scouts had a lease “in perpetuity” with the city, an agreement that has not been upheld by the City Council.
If this ruling is allowed to go stand, what other private organizations will also be affected by this precedent? That would not be just. I am hoping the people of Philadelphia will do the right thing.
The Bible may say that homosexuality is a sin, but if people are born gay, then what must we say then? Ive met people who were raised like a man in every regard but they were gay... like there was no way one could discern he was gay until the question of sexual oreintation comes up. There are many people who dont want to be gay but have you ever heard of a gay person going straight? And i once heard that jesus said gays were born gay.... I can look that up if you would like....
Okkkk this discussion should not go to atheism vs the Bible, as I am not trying to argue my point... the issue at hand is homosexuality. Ive come to the conclusion that the only reason that Christians could ever say that homosexuality might not be so bad after all is if they find out that homosexuality is something that cannot be changed. While there is not ENOUGH science to conclude this 100% I do believe that there is enough evidence to suggest this. To the Prophet... All those quotes are rather fitting... people will disbelieve in the bible but they are just denying wisdom... but that is to say that the Bible is the only form of wisdom, as Im pretty sure that is the point... but I have to disagree with that highly... which is why I dont take heed on those quotes.
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 1:22
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Proverbs 10:8
The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.
Proverbs 13:16
Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.
Proverbs 15:7
The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.
Ecclesiastes 7:5
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.
To The Watch, my response was to Prophet not you, which is why it sounded contradictory... to jc4... I realize your mentality but cant help but I cant help but disagree with it... once again you are valid in your perception, as in there is a logical progression that can be seen in getting to the position you are now at... but I find it to be faulty.. when one believes that the Bible is the only true thing in this 'confusing' world, I cant help but wonder at how much you know of the world...
Didymus, are you for real? Or are you mocking me?
Jc4me,
Could you quote all of Jude for me again? Just one last time… now that we’re friends… for old times sake :^)
Many thanks
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
1 John 4 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Knowing God Through Love
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
Seeing God Through Love
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
The Consummation of Love
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him[b] because He first loved us.
Obedience by Faith
20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can[c] he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.
Footnotes:
1 John 4:3 NU-Text omits that and Christ has come in the flesh.
1 John 4:19 NU-Text omits Him.
1 John 4:20 NU-Text reads he cannot.
1 John 3:1-9
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God![a] Therefore the world does not know us,[b] because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Sin and the Child of God
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 2:15-17
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
1John 8-10 (New King James Version)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
The Bible nowhere exhorts us to be complacent in our Christianity; nor does it exhort us to accept Christ in a prayer one day, and then just live to please the flesh, and then rationalize like the gnostics did in the first century church - "after all, there is the love and grace of God; He understands, I can sin today, and just ask for foirgiveness tomorrow." This is illogical, and contrary to the Word of God. Some on this site, because of whatever reason have chosen to be more flax on homosexuality, and have gone as far as to say they are not sure it is a sin. Well, biblically speaking it is a sin, and if God says it's sin, who am I to say otherwise? My problem with some on this site is that they try to rationalize (water down) sin, or they misinterpret the Bible to adapt to a personal sin, or someone they love who is dealing with something that is a sin, so what do they do? rather than admitting that the sin is sin, and just confessing it to God as sin, and asking God to remove the "fleshly lust" or watever other sin from their lives, they refuse to acknowledge it as sin, and further, will mock, or antagonize those of us who rather follow the whole counsel of God.
We are commanded to love (NOT TOLERATE) homosexuals, as well as adulterers, fornicators, liars, etc; we are called to love all our enemies, but we are called to hate sin. Therefore, let the truth be told in love, but nevertheless, the truth must be proclaimed- we love the sinner, but cannot condone the sin. we cannot and should not as born again believers water down sin. This is the problem with the modern day church - they water down Scripture to suit the itching ears of those who are listening rather than just teach the Word of God and let the Holy Spirit convict their hearts unto repentance and following Christ out of a pure heart.
I must say again the Bible is the absolute truth of God. If everything else in this confused and twisted world doesn't make sense, then that is why we have the Bible. The Bible teaches us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Therefore, the fornicator, the adulterer, the thief, the pedophile, the pornographer, the bisexual, transsexual, homosexual, liar, etc all have sinned. We all need a Savior, and it doesn't matter the sin, all it takes is one sin to be separated from God. This is why we must all come to repentance; whatever the vice is. We all suffer from one common thing, and that is a fallen sinful nature. I have never said that homosexuality is the unforgivable sin; however, I have always said that just like the adulterer, the homosexual needs to acknowledge that his/her desires are contrary to the natural uses God made us humans to be, and come to grips with his/her fleshly desire that is contrary to God, and repent if he/she wants to be born again. You cannot be born again and be openly practicing the homosexual lifestyle, because it would contradict the new life that we have in Christ. Please don't misinterpret me, this is not to mean that a person who has come out of that lifestyle who just gave their life to Christ will not struggle with this sin, but if they are born again, they will willfully acknowledge their temptations, their weaknesses, and their struggles, and go back to God with them, confess them to Him, and ask Him to grant more Grace for them to turn their backs on the sin, and to pick up their crosses daily and follow Christ.
continued:
A proverbial term of reproach applied to those who practiced sodomy (ritual homosexuality) (Deuteronomy 23:17; 1 Kings 14:24;15:12;22:46; 2 Kings 23:7; Job)
And is applied to males (Deuteronomy 23:17)
Destroyed by fire as a judgement (Genesis 19:24,25)
Wickedness of (Genesis 19:4-14)
The word "harlot" ("shrine prostitute" (N. I. V.)) appears in (Genesis 38:21,22)
And is the translation of a Hebrew feminine form of the word translated elsewhere "sodomite" (Hosea 4:14)
To be judged according to opportunity (Matthew 11:24; Luke 10:12)
See SODOMY"
I suppose the adultery, harlotry, homosexuality, and bestiality mentioned in Scripture is just meant for that culture during that time? NOT; it is meant for today, even thought moral relativists will tell you otherwise.
continued:
1 Kings 14:24
24 There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.
Leviticus 18:22
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
The leviticus passage really leaves no room for interpretation does it?
Maybe Scriptures from the same Bible you and I study from will help alleviate any confusion any of you may have on whether homosexuality is a sin:
Romans 1 (New King James Version)
Romans 1: 18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
We should TOLERATE homosexuals, not love them. They are people. People sin, and one of those sins, according to the bible is homosexuality. As Jesus said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. And, as Jesus said, do not hold on to hate for another person.
Men and women are typically different...in body, emotions, mind, etc. That is the way God designed it. So that when a man and woman are joined in marriage, they become one complete person. You've heard the saying "opposites attract"? That is so true in many marriages. Includiing mine. My wife and I are total opposites. She worries a lot. I'm steady as a rock. She's emotional. I'm logical. She's sensitive to the Spirit, me? Not so much as her. She can be uptight, I'm laid back. She's organized...well, we won't talk about me....lol.
But my point is, that she is totally opposite. People ask me how we stayed married so long. Because her strengths are my weakness, and vice-versa. She takes up the slack where I'm lacking. But also, I have learned how to be more of the things she is, and she has learned from me cetain things. She's more laid back than she used to be. I'm more sensitive to the Spirit, etc, etc. God designed it that way...man...and woman.
"You have no right to pass judgement upon them"
And with that, you missed my whole point. I said:
" Love requires that we share the message of Good News that all people can enter into a personal relationship with the God and Creator of the universe through belief in Jesus Christ. '
That is not passing judgement. What they choose to do is between them and God. All I can do is share the message. It is their choice.
"But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood." - Eze 33:6
"It is better to be divided by truth than to be united in error. It is better to speak the truth that hurts and then heals, than falsehood that comforts and then kills. It is better to be hated for telling the truth than to be loved for telling a lie. It is better to stand alone with the truth, than to be wrong with a multitude. It is better to ultimately succeed with the truth than to temporarily succeed with a lie. There is only one Gospel." - Adrian Rogers
If people choose to be out of Gods good graces, and not to maintain a relationship with him, who are you to say what they can and cant do? You have no right to pass judgement upon them.. the game of life that takes us to our proper place after death is something that you have no choice over... Gah heh but if I try to say this then youll have an arguement against me :P. Really theres nothing I can say from the biblical perspective that will change the fact that being Gay is a sin. All I can say is that I see nothing inherently wrong with it so I dont see why I should call it evil.
Those who say that Christians should not express their beliefs are actually the ones who are being intolerant, since they are unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression to Christian beliefs I believe by today's standards Jesus would be described as extremely intolerant. Why? Although, Jesus was loving and associated with all types of people, He was not tolerant of their alternative lifestyles, directly confronting immoral behavior and He even had the audacity to tell people to stop practicing their sinful behavior!! Jesus told his followers to "make disciples of all the nations...teaching them to observe all that I commanded you," and "preach the gospel to all creation."Jesus did not say to accept other religions as being true. In fact, He made one of the most "intolerant" statements that any religious leader has ever made:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6)
Evangelical Christians, in their zeal to follow the commands of their Lord, may seem to be over-enthusiastic and judgmental. However, in believing that Jesus is the only way to God, we want everybody we meet to understand their choices, and the consequences of those choices. Love requires that we share the message of Good News that all people can enter into a personal relationship with the God and Creator of the universe through belief in Jesus Christ.
God is holy. There is no sin in Him. Sin cannot abide in His presence. Is that very tolerant? BUT...God still loves us. And wants us to come out of sin, so we can stand in His presence. It's not a mean thing. It's a love thing. God wants us to be with Him, but sin will not be allowed in His presence, so He asks us to remove that sin (not on our own, but through His power, and the Blood of Jesus) so that we can have a right relationship with Him. God's one and only desire is to have a relationship with us. Just as He did with Adam and Eve before they sinned.
So why is there sin? Beause God gave us a free will to do what we want. If there is God and holiness, then what is the other half of the choice? Satan and sin. We choose whom we follow. He wants us to love Him because we want to. But someday, he will put an end to sin, and all that love it.
And see thats the fundamental problem, its like Christianity tries to advocate tolerance but is masking over the deadly sting underneath... the whole sin thing... Which is why you guys get so much from the media and other people because of this intolerance having to do with sin...
TokenSP,
I think we can find common ground. First the tolerance I speak aout is this double standard of tolerance we have in society today. The Gay community sides with the media, over and over again to promote and impress upon the American public that homosexuality is normal, it is also healthy and completely acceptable. This is the tolerance I speak of. The tolerance they are trying to force upon us. This unequivocal and uncritical acceptance is just what tolerance is not about. If we looked at this issue in the context of the dictionary definition of tolerance, we will see tolerance is willing to accept another person's difference, while still choosing to love the individual. We should not be tolerant of sin or fasehood. Love takes things to another level. Because we are not tolerant of the sin, we, as Christians should share the Truth of God's saving Grace with them because they are WORTH it. Jesus sacrificed himself for them just as he did for me. If they are willing to tolerate the Gospel, we must let them know that they ask us to tolerate everything but stand for nothing and scripture ask us to stand for God's Righteousness, but always love the person on the otherside.
That version of tolerance is extreme, and I dont agree with it... But if you are talking in regards to homosexuality, the point is valid. You can disagree with their lifestyles, but it doesnt mean that you must change them or tell them nasty things... Have to accept that some people are just going to be different no matter what you say or do... and the case may just be that they have no control over their difference... but i said earlier i wouldnt argue that and i wont now :P.
I quote Jonathan Sarfati:
"Not long ago, the word 'tolerance' meant 'bearing or putting up with someone or something not especially liked'. However, now the word has been redefined to 'all values, all beliefs, all lifestyles, all truth claims are equal'.1 Denying this makes a person 'intolerant', and thus worthy of contempt.
Where does this leave Christians? Jesus said,
'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me' (John 14:6).
And the apostle Peter said,
'It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved' (Acts 4:10-12).
The new definition of 'tolerance' makes the Christian claims to exclusivity 'intolerant', which supposedly justifies much of the anti-Christianity in the media and the education system.
But this argument is glaringly illogical and self-refuting. That is, if these 'tolerance' advocates reject Christianity, then they are not treating this belief as 'equal'. So, in practice, to paraphrase George Orwell in Animal Farm, all beliefs are equal, but some beliefs are more equal than others. The result is extreme intolerance towards Christianity from people who talk so much about tolerating all views. In short, they are intolerant of intolerance, so logically they should be intolerant of themselves!"
Ravi Zacharias, warns, "Truth cannot be sacrificed at the altar of pretended tolerance.
The Bible does say without the shadow of a doubt homosexuality is wrong. You can try to look at it from different views, and im sure those are very good arguements, but for the sake of this discussion, there is no dispute. Homosexuality is wrong. What I am saying is, if they for some extraordinary reason they allowed marraige between gays, and they had sex, what would be the difference between the connection felt between a man and a woman, versus a woman and a woman or a man and a man? Personally I feel... a woman and a woman would feel a much greater connection than man and woman cause women really are very sensitive... :P just my speculation. This is not the same thing as lieing adultry or thievery, those things cause suffering. Anyone can see why they have the potential to be bad. Gays on the other hand create love through their relationship, the opposite of suffering. And whats more, you are not going to hell because of their sin. I mean if that was the problem then why allow atheists in the country... we are making quite a horrendous sin and there you guys are allowing me to be atheist... its def not against the law... and who ever said marraige was something that only pertained to christianity? Were there not marraige before christianity? Or what if we called it civil union, if it was called a civil union would it be easier to accept a gay man and gay man in a civil union?
Ok... so Christians have a hatred for the word tolerance... Heres what it means straight out of the dictionary : a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry. Ok... so then when people hate other people soley on their race, hate them to the piont where they think they are dirt and dont belong in the same room as them.. thats intolerance... amongst other things... When they say be tolerant of homosexuality they mean, ok you disagree, but simply because you disagree doesnt mean you should give them dirty looks and not allow them in your house. Doesnt mean you cant have a peacable talk with them about other subjects and overlook their opinion on homosexuality. you may argue with them about it... as long as you do it in a well mannered way. Which means you dont attack them, you can tell a person you disagree with them without attacking them. Ya it almost has a lot of the same characteristics as the whole love arguement, but the difference is that you are trying to change them when they most likely will not change, which comes off as hostile.
"if all you can come up with to say homosexuality is evil is a biblical argument, then you have a problem on your hands. "
I disagree. As a Christian, if I look at it in any other sense than biblical, I do then have a problem. If I look at it in a sense of anything other than biblical, then I am not looking at it without the lense Love. I am, fact looking at it then in veil of tolerance. The difference in the two can be summerized this way(from the writing of Josh McDowell):
Tolerance says, "You must approve of what I do."
Love responds, "I must do something harder; I will love you, even when your behavior offends me."
Tolerance says, "You must agree with me."
Love responds, "I must do something harder; I will tell you the truth, because I am convinced 'the truth will set you free.' "
Tolerance says, "You must allow me to have my way."
Love responds, "I must do something harder; I will plead with you to follow the right way, because I believe you are worth the risk."
Tolerance seeks to be inoffensive; love takes risks. Tolerance glorifies division; love seeks unity. Tolerance costs nothing; love costs everything.
"The Bible is not enforceable law here in America, so you need to find some other argument for why homosexuality is evil, that isn’t Bible based. "
You are absolutely right. It is not an enforceable law here in America, but it is a Law enforceable by God, with the only hope being repentence through the Grace of our Lord Jesus. We are not discussing the law of the land but the salvation of the soul. I find that way more important.
Ifeelfine - oops, it was Exodus, not Ezekial. You brought it up in a post to Nerohdam yesterday morn, saying it seems to condone abortion. I don't feel I need to google it, in reading it it seems to indicate clearly that harm to a fetus is punishable on the basis of "an eye for an eye......"
GMG - I'm not sure Ezekial 21:22-25 has anything to do with abortion. If you mean the passage in Exodus, do a quick Google search, I'm not going to endorse their arguements for abortion by writing them out again. Again, I'm against abortion and I'm not going to attach my name to that.
Ifeelfine - I think I responded to your question with my anwer to Didymus, if I didn't let me know.
You forgot to answer my question on the verses in Ezekial 21:22-25, how does that seem to condone abortion?
Didymus, expounding a little more on what you presented, "Genocide happens when one group has all the authority, not when everything is relative. If Nazi’s had been forced to share power with the Jews there would never had been a Holocaust. And having the authority of the Bible around didn’t help any, remember the German Christian Movement supported the Nazi’s, Bonhoefer and the Confessional church were a minority."
That group that had all the authority was united on that one point - that is that they have the right to make that decision, and their justification as to why they were right can be argued all day long as just different opinions, unless there is an "absolute authority" for guidance. And who had the authority to order the nazis to share the power with the Jews -- someone else with an opinion? They could only enforce that opinion by might, certainly not by right under relativism. The people of that time were choosing between communism and nazism, and really had no idea what nazism was all about because it was cleverly hidden (no surprise there). And of course, then they were in fear of their own lives under nazism.
Goodness, look what we got started!
Didymus - TokenSP started his whole question out with the assumption that he was looking at a biblical standpoint, so that's the basis of my answers. Is there reason for human sexual relations outside of procreation? Most certainly, just read Song of Solomon along with the other verses given also. That was something additional he gave us over the animal kingdom. But that still doesn't change the fact that over and over He refers to "man and woman" when He gives instructions as to His purpose, and calls it "sin" and "abomination" when it is outside marriage and other than man and woman, which was His design.
I was trying to give a glaring easy-to-understand example of relativism in my answer to Token, but my assertion is still true on a smaller scale. People use all kinds of excuses to justify their crimes and vehemenently insist that they "have a right". My point is that without an absolute right and wrong, no one can say with any authority what IS right or wrong. Democracy is fine, but we're still talking relativism. That's fine for the speed limit, but the issues we're discussing here have quite a larger impact.
Beloved, it still amazes me that we humans haven't caused the dark one to adapt very much. He can still utter the same lie he spewed to Eve: "Did God really say...". How sad that we are so easily led astray. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Now, we read on this particular post, so-called Christians who are ignoring what is written in the Bible, because they have been led to doubt it is really saying what it says.
Did God really say?
It's the same, unoriginal lie all over again, and we keep falling for it.
Dear ones, look to see if homosexuality is written of in the Bible. It is, and it does not paint a very good picture of it. It paints one of condemnation and destruction. It paints a picture of something we should absolutely stay away from.
Did God really say? Actually, He did. Some have just chosen to ignore it, or worse, attempt to change it.
Did God really say homosexuality was an act of iniquity and an abomination to Him? Well, actually, He did. You can keep listening to the dark one spewing his lies about "Did God really say", or you can find out what God says about it yourself.
The choice has and always be ours to make. Either you believe that God said, or you don't. There can only be one truth.
The Watch
You said, “For the Christian, God's word is the only reason.”
One of the reasons why I thought TokenSP’s original question was so good was because in light topic of the article that we all are writing comments under, if all you can come up with to say homosexuality is evil is a biblical argument, then you have a problem on your hands.
We are trying to have a democracy here in America, which means we need to share power, even with those we radically disagree with. We don’t have a state religion (which would be Mormon here where I live if the people ever vote out democracy and set up a state religion), the Bible isn’t written into the constitution (and it’s good that it isn’t, because if it was, each of the different denominations we have would demand that they, and only they, get to be it official state appointed interpreters), and God’s name isn’t anywhere in the Constitution (I doubt he would want to be in such a compromise oriented document anyway). The Bible is not enforceable law here in America, so you need to find some other argument for why homosexuality is evil, that isn’t Bible based.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
you are right on, watch.
Sex is more than procreation. It is a bond between a man and a woman. It is a covenant. Someone said "As for two becoming one, I thought that had to do with sexual relations, not with marriage.' It's supposed to be one and the same. It is tradition both among Jews and Western civilization to have sex on their wedding night to "consumate" the marriage. But I believe that sex outside the marriage is a bond as well. It is the physical expression of a spiritual occurence (like water baptism). And when you have sex with someone, you are bonding yourself to them. Women will sense this more than men, because they are more sensitve spiritually. When a woman has sex, it's a sign of love. They become attached. Men view it as an act of self gratification (for the most part...but some men do view it differently). That is why i believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong. It corrupts the natural order of God. It takes the sanctity of marriage and the marriage bond and degrades it to a mere animalistic act. God has a natural order to everything. Anything outside that is wrong.
"In other words, sex that doesn't procreate is unnatural."
No...sex outside the marriage is wrong, not unnatural. Sexual relations between husband and wife is perfectly fine without concieving a child. It is a natural order for a husband and wife.
"As for two becoming one, I thought that had to do with sexual relations, not with marriage. I've heard both from the fundy's. "
I refer back to Genesis 2: 24.
"That’s a biblical answer, TokenSP is asking what makes homosexuality evil in and of itself, or is the only reason because God said so."
For the Christian, God's word is the only reason. I quote Ken Ham from the book "The Genesis Solution,"... "Our conclusions must be based on the foundation of God's Word, not on fallible human opinion!" Sin is evil not only because it is just wrong in the eyes of God but it is wrong in the eyes of God because it adversly effects our relationship with not only Him but our relationship with each other.
"I ment to say in the last line of the second paragraph, “God didn’t need to tell us they were evil, it’s easy to figure that out on our own.” "
I quote the late Adrian Rogers: ..."Today, the new sin is calling sin, sin!"
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for God's people to do nothing.” - Edmund Burke
Didymus, ifeelfine72, jc4me, GMG and all others recently - I just want to take a moment and express my thanks for you guys in taking this subject and discussing it with honest and respectful communication. I have seen where this thread has gone from annoyance to one of true learning. Even though we do not agree 100% on each topic, I have seen all sides try and view the other side and intelligently and lovingly debate. This is the true way to learn TOGETHER.
Each of you have a blessed day and continue to strive to learn what God wants in each of our lives. You guys have truly blessed me today!
The Watch - here is what GMG said: "He created man and woman, said "two shall become one", told them to "procreate" and populate the world, and called all sex other than this "unnatural"."
In other words, sex that doesn't procreate is unnatural.
As for two becoming one, I thought that had to do with sexual relations, not with marriage. I've heard both from the fundy's.
GMG,
Oop!
I ment to say in the last line of the second paragraph, “God didn’t need to tell us they were evil, it’s easy to figure that out on our own.”
GMG,
You mention, “Yep, He gave a reason. He created man and woman, said "two shall become one", told them to "procreate" and populate the world, and called all sex other than this "unnatural". As the Creator, it would be safe to assume He knew what fit together, since he designed it all.”
That’s a biblical answer, TokenSP is asking what makes homosexuality evil in and of itself, or is the only reason because God said so. In other words, if God had not said it was a sin, what would make it a sin? Kind of like stealing and lying, God need to tell us they were evil, it’s easy to figure that out on our own.
You mention later, “Without an authority for right and wrong, you have relativity, which is just an opinion. Then how do you determine whose opinion carries more weight.”
It’s called democracy.
You continue, “By that method you could even excuse murder, such as genocide, because after all those "Quashers" who live in Timbuktoo don't deserve to live because they are inferior and eat up all the food for everyone else so everyone else will starve, so killing them is justified for the survival of the others.”
Genocide happens when one group has all the authority, not when everything is relative. If Nazi’s had been forced to share power with the Jews there would never had been a Holocaust. And having the authority of the Bible around didn’t help any, remember the German Christian Movement supported the Nazi’s, Bonhoefer and the Confessional church were a minority.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
No it doesn't "blow it out the water". I read in what GMG wrote that all sex outside a man and woman, and outside of marriage is wrong. Look at the word use.."The two shall become one." That significes marriage(and marriage between man and woman). Genesis 2:24 says:
"24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."
God wanted to populate the earth, but it was to be done in the context of the marriage union. A family.
TheWatch - I agree with you wholeheartedly but that kind of blows GMG's response (on why homosexuality is "evil") to TokenSP out of the water.
"As for the marital view of sex, that's a pretty fundamental, almost anachronistic view of marital relations. So only procreative sex is okay?"
Dr. Ed Wheat and Gloria Okes Perkins point out that…
"“…a biblical understanding of sex dispels false fears and inhibitions. …The Scriptures tell us clearly that the joyous sexual expression of love between husband and wife is God's plan. …Uninformed people have actually considered the Victorian view to be biblical because they think the Bible forbids all earthly pleasures. Certainly not! In fact, the Bible is far more 'liberated' concerning sex than untaught people realize. In God's view there is a mutuality of experience between husband and wife. Each has an equal right to the other's body. Each has not only the freedom but also the responsibility to please the other and to be pleased in return. …These basic principles concerning the enjoyment of sex in marriage are found in 1 Corinthians 7:3-5…
The principle of need… a commandment, to meet our mate's sexual needs…
The principle of authority… when we marry, we actually relinquish the right to our own body, and turn that authority over to our mate. …the wife's body now belongs to the husband. The husband's body now belongs to the wife. This means that we must love our mate's body and care for it as our own…
The principle of habit… we must not cheat our partner by abstaining from the habit of sex, except by mutual consent for a brief time” "
GMG - Thanks for that. I have checked out joedallas.com but have not read any of his books. I went to a book store over the weekend but they didn't have any of them - I'll probably have to go to a Christian bookstore to find them. Clearly he has a strong point of view based just on the title and subtitles of at least one of his books. But, I'd still like to give him a shot.
As for the marital view of sex, that's a pretty fundamental, almost anachronistic view of marital relations. So only procreative sex is okay?
GMG- Amen and Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh come on token, you said from the biblical standpoint. And from that standpoint you can't take the biology out of it, because of the Designer's design.
Biblically speaking, man's way often seems right but is not, God's way is way above man's ability to know or understand (we're back to the Designer). Furthermore, He knows the future, and how all things fit together. We've all done something because it "feels" right, but had it come out all wrong. And because homosexuality may not kill someone, does that make adultry, thievery, gossip, lying, etc. okay for the same reason?
Without an authority for right and wrong, you have relativity, which is just an opinion. Then how do you determine whose opinion carries more weight. By that method you could even excuse murder, such as genocide, because after all those "Quashers" who live in Timbuktoo don't deserve to live because they are inferior and eat up all the food for everyone else so everyone else will starve, so killing them is justified for the survival of the others. And don't say "of course no one would think that's okay", because there are groups that feel exactly that way. Did you know that some environmentalists think we should get rid of people because they mess up the earth? Yes, there are, indeed there are.
So biblically, yes, the Designer says it's not in the design. Period.
Staying away from the biological arguement, for now, what is inherently evil about it though? I mean are they killing people? are they harming anyone? are they forcing anyone against their will? both parties are willing, both parties want it. Whats evil about it? They love eachother, how does love equate to evil? So they may not create children, but they arnt killing anyone either...
Ifeelfine -
I've read Exodus 21-22-25, and I don't understand how what you see here seems to condone abortion. Could you please explain your thoughts on this?
Also, the guys who started Exodus have an interesting story about themselves -- and it includes some major issues with their fathers. I realize that 2 guys aren't "everyone", but it does indicate a possible factor in some cases. BTW, did you ever look at joedallas.com?
Token SP --
"but for this subject I have decided to accept the Bible as a truth.", and "is homosexuality inherently evil? Or better yet, why does God think it is evil? Does he give us a reason?"
Yep, He gave a reason. He created man and woman, said "two shall become one", told them to "procreate" and populate the world, and called all sex other than this "unnatural". As the Creator, it would be safe to assume He knew what fit together, since he designed it all.
I am atheist, but for this subject I have decided to accept the Bible as a truth. Now then, I understand how it seems, to a fundamentalist it seems as if people are just trying to stretch the truth to fit their wants because they can. To you sin is sin, no matter how you spin it. Thats fine, I can see where you guys are coming from and it makes sense. (This is my view on Intelligent Design vs Evolution, ID is just trying to stretch the truth to fit their wants, but it flies in the face of science, and quite frankly I dont think it stands a chance, but this is not something we should be discussing now) The Bible DOES say homosexuality is a sin, but my only question to you is, is homosexuality inherently evil? Or better yet, why does God think it is evil? Does he give us a reason?
Didymus, I have much to say on why I believe the emergent curch is one of the bridges that the antichrist will use in these last days with it's moral relativistic stance on things. One of them is their open endorsement of the COEXIST Movement. I ca explain wy i believe tey are incorrect in their way of "re-thinking" or reimnventing Christianity, but I'll save that for another time. I need to say good night to you all.
Didymus, go have a good night, and enjoy your toddler. They are a handful aren't they? But they sure are a blessing from God - seeing their little faces looking and smiling huh?
ifeelfine: a fetus,which God has created is a living breathing being. the fact that it can't survive outside of the mother's womb does not make it not a life.
Jeremiah 17:9
“ The heart is deceitful above all things,And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:8-10 (in Context) Jeremiah 17 (Whole Chapter)
Nerohdam,
You mention, “I am not sure I completely agree with the opinion that our interpretation should change based upon what is happening in the world. I would think that this would make the Bible relative based upon the standards of the world which I think would be dangerous. I have more comfort to have something that is unchanging for me to then see how the world has changed.”
I see what your saying, but I don’t think it is as relative as you might think, because it’s not the Bible that I think is relative, it remains what it is (I might dispute this some on a different day, but for the sake of this discussion, it is what it is), but our interpretations of the Bible are relative, they vary. The Bible is infallible, but our interpretations of the Bible are not. The Bible is correct, and we believe that on faith, but how the Holy Spirit, who underwrites the Bible, manifests the Word in the world can vary and change.
If evidence comes along to show that are interpretations are not so good, because it is incongruent with the things we now know, then as Christians we should reexamine things under the guiding light of the Bible (and that is not throwing out the Bible as “situation ethics” would do, nor is it holding to our “absolute and infallible” interpretation of the Bible in spite of the incongruence).
In short interpretations should be tentative, subject to change.
In the context of this discussion on homosexuality, I personally think we should stick with the church’s long tradition of interpretation and call it a sin, but I think we should also be open to changing that interpretation, giving it more nuance, rather than just saying it’s not a sin, if actual evidence points to homosexuality being biological. Also, I think the church should take the challenge of questioning our interpretations of the Bible to see what is culturally relative in it, and what is not, and change accordingly in order to be more in line with the spirit of the word, not just the letter.
Jc4me,
I know you don’t like the emergent church, and I can’t say I’ve ever been to any of their conferences, conversations, etc., but I appreciate much of the conversation they are having. I have had a different experience with them, it’s not that they aren’t taking a position on anything, it’s that they are questioning everything. I think many of the questions they are bringing to the table are good, and I don’t think we should fear questioning any of even our most sacred beliefs, because what is made of gold will survive, and what is made of chaff or straw will burn, and we’ll be the better for it.
(I can also see that this discussion has way passed me up, I wish I could keep up with it, but my toddler is demanding my attention.)
Nerohdam - Again, I believe abortion is wrong but where does the Bible say anything about abortion? It doesn't. Murder you say? But a fetus isn't alive - you take it out of the mother's womb and it won't live at all. Exodus 21:22-25 seems to condone it. Again, I believe abortion is wrong and I'm not trying to pick any fights, but my conviction is based on what my heart says and not specific verses in the Bible.
ifeelfine: I'm really glad that you think abortion is wrong.
Ifeelfine wrote:
"As for abortion. I think it is wrong but that is based on what my heart tells me, not the Bible. The Bible is mostly silent on the issue (and different scripture can be used by people that are pro-choice and pro-life). "
ifeelfine, it's funny you should bring this up, because this is precisely why we need to go to the Scriptures on these issues. Now thi sis what the Bible says about our hearts.
Jeremiah 17:9
“ The heart is deceitful above all things,And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:8-10 (in Context) Jeremiah 17 (Whole Chapter)
By the way, Scripture is not silent on killing the unborn
jc4me - WELL SAID IN LOVE AND TRUTH!!!!! That my friends hits the nail on the head without error... I have nothing to add.
I believe that the Bible is not silent on the issue of abortion. Thou shall not murder. Again very clear.
Also not to start a flame issue with abortion but I am honestly curious as to where in scripture man was given the right to kill babies without the permission of God.
Continued:
The Bible nowhere exhorts us to be complacent in our Christianity; nor does it exhort us to accept Christ in a prayer one day, and then just live to please the flesh, anfd then rationalize like the gnostics did in the first century church - "after all, there is the love and grace of God; He understands, I can sin today, and just ask for foirgiveness tomorrow." This is illogical, and contrary to the Word of God. Some on this site, because of whatever reason have chosen to be more flax on homosexuality, and have gone as far as to say they are not sure it is a sin. Well, biblically speaking it is a sin, and if God says it's sin, who am I to say otherwise? My problem with some on this site is that they try to rationalize (water down) sin, or they misinterpret the Bible to adapt to a personal sin, or someone they love who is dealing with something that is a sin, so what do they do? rather than admitting that the sin is sin, and just confessing it to God as sin, and asking God to remove the "fleshly lust" or watever other sin from their lives, they refuse to acknowledge it as sin, and further, will mock, or antagonize those of us who rather follow the whole counsel of God.
We are commanded to love homosexuals, as well as adulterers, fornicators, liars, etc; we are called to love all our enemies, but we are called to hate sin. Therefore, let the truth be told in love, but nevertheless, the truth - we love the sinner, but cannot condone the sin. we cannot and should not as born again believers water down sin. This is the problem with the modern day church - they water down Scripture to suit the itching ears of those who are listening rather than just teach the Word of God and let the Holy Spirit convict their hearts unto repentance and following Christ out of a pure heart.
Nerohdam, i thought that was what you meant, so that is why I ventured to give my opinion on your quote. Thank you for confirming it. I wanted to say, that you may have read some of my previous posts and thought they may ave been rather cut and dry - well, I must say te Bible is the absolute truth of God. If everything else in this confused and twisted world doesn't make sense, then that is why we have the Bible. The Bible teaches us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Therefore, the fornicator, the adulterer, the thief, the pedophile, the pornographer, the bisexual, transexual, homosexual, liar, etc all have sinned. We all need a Savior, and it doesn't matter the sin, all it takes is one sin to be seperated from God. This is why we must all come to repentance; whatever the vice is. We all suffer from one common thing, and that is a fallen sinful nature. I have never said that homosexuality is the unforgivable sin; however, I have always said that just like the adulterer, the homosexual needs to acknowledge that his/her desires are contrary to the natural uses God made us humans to be, and come to grips with his/her fleshly desire that is contrary to God, and repent if he/she wants to be born again. You cannot be born again and be openly practicing the homosexual lifestyle, because it would contradict the new life that we have in Christ. Please don't misinterpret me, this is not to mean that a person who has come out of that lifestyle who just gave their life to Christ will not struggle with this sin, but if they are born again, they will willfully acknowledge their temptations, their weaknesses, and their struggles, and go back to God with them, confess them to Him, and ask Him to grant more Grace for them to turn their backs on the sin, and to pick up their crosses daily and follow Christ.
Nerohdam - I thought it was self evident what I meant, sorry for the confusion. Let me be clear. After gay people come out to their parents, mom's seem to be more accepting. At least that has been my experience.
As for slavery, it was an issue then and still is now (in parts of Africa, it is a major problem). But again, I was referring to this country (why I ended that sentence with "in the US"). Christianity has been used to condone it and condemn it.
As for abortion. I think it is wrong but that is based on what my heart tells me, not the Bible. The Bible is mostly silent on the issue (and different scripture can be used by people that are pro-choice and pro-life).
Yes you are correct jc4me, I was referring to people who had bad experiences with their
Then let's say something happened that ruined that pristine state.
Ifeelfine72 - I found this statement to be interesting...
"... but for whatever reason, Mom's tend to be more accepting and loving than Dad's when it comes to this issue."
So it would seem to me that perhaps and I am not saying that it definately is the case but perhaps if dad had initially been more loving and accepting then I am not sure how many sons would have been looking for love with another man in an attempt to fill in that gap not given to by their fathers.
Again, I am not a psychologist but that one statement stood out. Maybe I read your statment wrong...
Also, slavery was and is not an issue in just the 1800's but has been around for a long time. That is why there are jewish laws stating that after 7 years a man's debt is to be removed.
Aborton I am sure has also been around. They just didn't have the media like we do now to report. Look at China and their 1 child rule. A lot of female babies sadly died... and regardless, the voluntary intent of getting rid of a child whether or not it is an embryo or a single cell has to speak to your heart. That is why God said thou shall not murder. So it would seem to me that, that commandment would cover abortion. I don't think it really is that complicated. It becomes complicated when people try to make excuses for something that they know in their hearts they should not be doing. Granted some people may not feel this in their hearts. The Bible saids God will release these people to do as they will. I believe the scientific community calls this desensitization. :)
ifeelfine wrote:
" Nerohdam - I don't know what gay people you are referring to that have bad relationships with their fathers being the cause of their homosexuality but in my experience the bad relationship with the dad isn't the cause, its a symptom."
i could be wrong, but i think nerodham may have also been referring to fathers who sexually, or physically abuse their sons and daughters.
And for the record, I know lots of gay people that have excellent relationships with both of their parents but for whatever reason, Mom's tend to be more accepting and loving than Dad's when it comes to this issue.
Nerohdam - I don't know what gay people you are referring to that have bad relationships with their fathers being the cause of their homosexuality but in my experience the bad relationship with the dad isn't the cause, its a symptom. In other words, the son isn't "manly" enough or doesnt like sports or likes the theatre instead, etc - stuff that a "guy's guy." Every gay person I know (more than 100 I would day) except one (and he definitely had major issues) was born gay. While I wouldn't liken homosexuality to a genetic mental disability in any other way, TokenSP is right that it is similar and because of that I think its not a sin the way people think its a sin - just like Down's syndrome isn't a sin (although in ancient times they thought it was a curse from God).
And Didymus is right, our cultural interpretation of the Bible has changed over time. Abortion is a hot button topic nowadays - it isn't even mentioned in the Bible. Slavery was a hot button topic in the 1800's in the US - unfortunately just like with homosexuality, many otherwise just Christians were on the wrong side!
Didymus:
Well, I have to say what you wrote is rather eloquent. However, i must point out that to myself as many born again, Bible believing Christians on this site, the explanation you gave is more in line with situational ethics, subjective understanding of truth(s), and moral relativism than with true biblical Cristianity. This is what the progressive/liberal emergent conversation gatherings are doing, and you ca never get them to have a straight answer on the Bible, because they don't even have a biblical doctrinal position on many of these issues. Why is this so? Based on the Bible, moral relativism is man's wisdom. Why would you give an explanation on the Bible that is more humanistic that Biblical?
like i exhorted ifeelfine to go search the Scriptures for themself:
"Maybe other Scriptures from the same Bible you and I study from will help alleviate any confusion you have on whether homosexuality is a sin:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
1 Kings 14:24
24 There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.
Leviticus 18:22
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
The leviticus passage really leaves no room for interpretation does it?
A proverbial term of reproach applied to those who practiced sodomy (ritual homosexuality) (Deuteronomy 23:17; 1 Kings 14:24;15:12;22:46; 2 Kings 23:7; Job)
And is applied to males (Deuteronomy 23:17)
Destroyed by fire as a judgement (Genesis 19:24,25)
Wickedness of (Genesis 19:4-14)
The word "harlot" ("shrine prostitute" (N. I. V.)) appears in (Genesis 38:21,22)
And is the translation of a Hebrew feminine form of the word translated elsewhere "sodomite" (Hosea 4:14)
To be judged according to opportunity (Matthew 11:24; Luke 10:12)
See SODOMY"
I suppose the adultery, harlotry, homosexuality, and bestiality mentioned in Scripture is just meant for that culture during that time? NOT; it is meant for today, even thought moral relativists will tell you otherwise. Sorry Didymus, your explanation did not convince me tat the Bible should not be taken literally, and your explanation did not explain wy homosexuality is a sin either.
So given all this. I appologize to any I may have offended earlier on this subject, as the scientific community is not in 100% agreement one way or the other.
So basically, while there is evidence for homosexuality being biological, it is very little evidence at this point. The subject is very controversial, and there seems to be a few differing ideas on the subject. It has shaken my foundation of the belief that it is completely genetic, and I now concede environment plays a role, but at the same time I dont think that it is purely environmental, or that we know enough to even make a conclusion either way.
OK after further reading I have come across some new conclusions. First off this is a much more complex subject in science than I had once believed. What I found out was that genetics plays a role in this, but it is not the only factor. Environment influences also affect it. The cell clump I said earlier was in regards to a neuron in the hypothalamus called INAH 3. (There are 4) Basically womens INAH 3 neuron is much smaller than heterosexual mens INAH 3, and homosexuals INAH 3 are somewhere in between, but not significantly smaller than heterosexual men or significantly bigger than women. Ive found that this study has some variables that may confound this discovery, and the scientist himself, Simon LeVay, said he did not prove Homosexuality is a born trait. They believe that if sexual orientation is genetics, there is no master gene, and that it is spread out.
Interesting theory TokenSP. While I do not doubt estrogen would be a factor in making one more effeminate, I would not think this would be a good idea for someone to blame their sexual orientation on a gene. I have more to say but got to go eat. i appreciate your wanting to continue to learn more!
The book I got this out of was David G. Myers 8th Edition Psychology book... im trying to look up the section where I learned about this. The scientist had a name as well, and if I find it ill give it to you guys
Well what I meant by the chance increasing is that basicallly the part of the brain in question is a clump of cells and depending on how much you have, dictates how feminine youll turn out to be because in the female brain they have none of these cells, which causes them to like men. (It may be the other way around, the more you have the less feminine you are, its been awhile since I learned this.. and when I did it challenged no belief system of mine, i took it as an interesting discovery, and quickly went on to the next subject of the chapter, without committing much of the details to heart) And so after each sucesscive birth, they'll tend to have less of these cells.. or more... until they reach a point of no return type thing. Im sorry I dont remember this completely, as I said it didnt really strike me as overly important, I simply accepted it and went on about my buisness.
TokenSP - It would seem to me that your chances of something occurring would be better if a certain event would occur. I have a better chance of catching a fish if I put the hook into the water more than 1 time...
I would have to agree that homosexuality is not something that is passed down versus something that is generationally passed down like hate that for whatever reason "causes" someone to "turn" gay. From personal experience, the gay people I have met during my life time have all experience some type of household incident whether an abusive father or some other event.
I guess it would be like saying alcohol in itself is not bad but the effects caused by alcohol can be devestating.
Didymus - Welcome back! I am not sure I completely agree with the opinion that our interpretation should change based upon what is happening in the world. I would think that this would make the Bible relative based upon the standards of the world which I think would be dangerous. I have more comfort to have something that is unchanging for me to then see how the world has changed.
In my time spent in the Word, I have had many times that yeah some versus did not make sense or just did not seem right to ME. Then a year would go by and then God would reveal to me what He meant. The literal meaning did not change but I changed. When I took off the glasses of this world and put on God's glasses then I saw things in a whole different light. Until those time occur, I had to go on faith that what I was reading was the Truth.
Did I like going on faith that what I was reading was true? Sometimes I had a very hard time. But one thing I did know was that the things I did read in the Bible that I did know was true was consistent and so if it did not let me down then why shouldn't I believe what I read until proven otherwise.
This also goes back to the utube portion where the young man questions whether he should believe homosexuality is immoral just because the Bible says so. Again, this is a faith thing. At one point you have to take that leap of faith.
Yeah scary.... I just asked you to put away human understanding and reasoning.... crazy... but sometimes that is what you have to do...
:) Oh this is mightily refreshing ^^ and here I thought I was going to drop discussion at this site ^^. In response to the evolution thing and homosexuality, think of it being in the same category as mental retardation. Its just a genetic mishap that occurs while the baby is forming in the womb. Theoretically speaking, people who are... mentally impaired... would have to drop off the face of the planet because they are not profitable in evolution, but this is not so. Same thing for homosexuality, except im not so sure that its something thats passed down... From what Ive heard scientifically on the subject, the chance of having a homosexual baby increases with every boy one has. SO the first one will most certainly not have it but the 2nd is more likely and 3rd still more likely. Or that may be in reference. to schizo but im pretty sure thats how it goes... sorry if I am wrong ahead of time ^^;. Going to go grab a bite to eat be back later.
TokenSP - You don't have to apologize for honest questions that you have. I went to the utube site that you posted. To give a summary of what the young man had to say on utube. I will preface by saying he was an atheist that quoted scriptures that talked about women being silent and homosexuality as a choice due to environment and not genetics.
To answer about the scriptures for women being silent. I believe Paul was talking to the church in Corinthia and there was a disruption caused by women. This was not to say women had no place in leadership as the Bible is filled with examples of women holding leadership positions. I find it hard to believe that Paul would require these women to be silent and docile like a good little women... No he was specifically addressing women in the congregation that was disruptive to the early stages of the church.
In regard to homosexuality being caused by environment according to the utube site, I believe this as well but I am sure there are also genetics factors included. Remember certain curses can be handed down generation to generation and so I think some of these "genetic" diseases were caused by previous curses. The good news is these curses can easily be broken by the power of Christ. We just have to claim that power.
I hope this helps some TokenSP. It seems to me that the young man in the uTube presentation is very intellingent and has thought about things for awhile like we all have. But he can not just take 1 single verse out of the Bible without realizing why Paul was admonishing the church at that specific time and place.
It is like me giving you a piece of torn paper that says "God hates " but you don't see the rest of the paper that says, "injustice and broken hearts but Love those you fight for the poor."
Anyway good questions and good site reference to stimulate dialogue! :)
(Part 2 of 2)
Now to TokenSP’s question, he asks: “… is being gay immoral because God says it is or because it is in general? If we didnt adhere to religion, would we still consider it bad? Its the same thing as a straight man and straight woman, minus the reproductive advantage. If its bad because God says so, then wouldnt that make morality meaningless?”
I admit… I don’t have an answer… but I have a few thoughts that may affect an answer :^)
***First Thought***
I think TokenSP asks a good question, is it just because the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, and/or is there something inherently wrong about homosexuality in itself? The literal straightforward reading would say it’s a sin. But has the context changed, does our interpretation need to be more nuanced? I have heard of some “science” showing that homosexuality is a genetically fixed trait (which would be something God wrought, and not a result of the fall of man). If that is true, then I think we would probably have to reexamine our interpretation of the Bible at least as far as gay marriage goes.
But I have to admit, there is just something fishy about that “scientific” claim. It sounds too much like pseudo-science designed around a religious or political ideology to me. (BTW, I also feel the same about creation science/intelligent design.) The evolutionary concept behind natural selection is that you live long enough to reproduce, and homosexuals, in and of themselves, ah, can’t do that. So gay genes I would think would, ya-know, natural select themselves right on out of existence.
But I also have to admit that I haven’t read up on the science of this topic, I’ve only heard the “propaganda”. (Does anyone reading this have more information on this?)
***Second Thought***
… hold on a second, my toddler just woke up and she is looking kinda funny, I’ll get back to this later
(Part 1 of 2)
I think it will suffice to say that if one takes a literal straightforward reading of the Bible he will find that homosexuality is a sin. But…
Before I go on, I think it best that I say a couple of things concerning interpretation. The Bible itself does not change, but our interpretations of the Bible should change, needs to change, and do change. Why? because the context changes. Here are a couple of examples to illustrate what I mean:
1. If we take a literal straightforward reading of the Bible we will find, just as many early Christians did, that the earth is the center of the universe, the sun goes around the earth. Then came Copernicus and Galileo, and after a little bit of a fight, all that changed. The context of our understanding changed, and our interpretation of the Bible changed with it.
2. If we take a literal straightforward reading of the Bible we will find, that slavery is acceptable. Now many will say that is reprehensible, and show scriptures to the effect that slavery is ungodly (William Wilberforce kind of stuff), but again, this is only because the context of our understanding changed, our culture changed, and our interpretation of the Bible changed with it. (A short blog article that gives some great thoughts on this hermeneutical issue related to slavery is over at IVP’s blog site here: http://www.ivpress.com/blogs/addenda-errata/archives/2007/08/required_hermeneutical_reading.php )
In both cases our changing contexts of understanding created new nuances of meaning in which the literal straightforward answer no longer worked.
ifeelfine wrote:
"jc4me - I am saved.
Nerohdam - I don't mean to come across as pompous or anything like that. I just get frustrated when I see scripture taken out of context. Personally, I am not sure if homosexuality, the way I know it, is even a sin at all. The only piece of scripture I have any problem with is in Romans. That is the only passage that would seem to condemn homosexuality. And even that seems to be referring to the Roman practice of the time engaging in that kind of behavior with boys (pedastery, not homosexuality). But again, I didn't mean to jump all over you. I am sorry. "
Maybe other Scriptures from the same Bible you and I study from will help alleviate any confusion you have on whether homosexuality is a sin:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
1 Kings 14:24
24 There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.
Leviticus 18:22
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
The leviticus passage really leaves no room for interpretation does it?
A proverbial term of reproach applied to those who practiced sodomy (ritual homosexuality) (Deuteronomy 23:17; 1 Kings 14:24;15:12;22:46; 2 Kings 23:7; Job)
And is applied to males (Deuteronomy 23:17)
Destroyed by fire as a judgement (Genesis 19:24,25)
Wickedness of (Genesis 19:4-14)
The word "harlot" ("shrine prostitute" (N. I. V.)) appears in (Genesis 38:21,22)
And is the translation of a Hebrew feminine form of the word translated elsewhere "sodomite" (Hosea 4:14)
To be judged according to opportunity (Matthew 11:24; Luke 10:12)
See SODOMY
Im sorry I said something that was so contreversial, I wasnt completely aware of what the scripture said, I tried to go off the top of my head. Ifeelfine is right, it was in regards to children. And in regards to women, its basically the Bible is shovenistic, as told in Romans. A very good video and arguement on this subject, HE GIVES VERY REASONED ARGUEMENTS please dont brush this off... Anyways sure I will proceed to debate this subject further, but I would need you guys to educate me in the scriptures in question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTwlOqKPC6I
Nerohdam
I believe there is a difference between sinning and practicing sin. Practicing sin, is when you have one (or more) "vices" or sinful habits that you constantly keep doing...over and over and over. And it's not a sin that happens accidetally, it's one that you seek out to perform consciously and willingly. Such as pornography, or alcoholism, or fornication. But I believe that they are things that we can overcome through Jesus.
But we will always sin. I am not an angry person. It's not my nature to get angry. But sometimes I do, and I say things I shouldn't out of the heat of the moment. That is sin. I'm not practicing it, but once in a while it will happen. I'm not sure that is something that can be eliminated though.
Anyway, that is my two cents on the subject.
To continue this opportunity for learning...
I went and read Leviticus chapter 18 instead of chapter 18:22 to avoid possible scripture taken out of context. As I see it, Leviticus chapter 18 is solely on sexual immorality. The shrimp part must have been too small for me to see lol.....
Upon reading Leviticus 18, it clearly outlines what is and is not appeasing to God in regard to sex.
In response to Annie you are correct that we are not to be actively sinning. Hence the whole repentence deal. However, we still have sin in our lives even after we accept Christ. It is not like we are suddenly clean and we will never sin again or that we will not commit the same sin again. No... when we accept Christ the first time into our hearts and ask for his forgiveness, we are instantly baptized with a Counselor. We are then able to see the sin we had in our hearts. We confess those sins and strive to sin no more. Will we sin again? You betcha. But we go back once again on our knees for forgiveness.
I picture John the Baptist yelling Repent! Repent! and the people would repent and the next day he would scream Repent! Repent! Hey didn't I see you yesterday repenting? Well hurry hurry !! Repent ! Repent! rinse and repeat...
That at least is the way I understand it.
ifeelfine72: A Christian isn't someone who just accepts that Christ was crucified and died for their sins, that is part of it of course; but they also have to "go and sin no more".
We cannot be actively sinning and claim to be following Jesus. God doesn't condone the BEATING of anyone. He condones the discipline, correction and rebuking, and this is done in love. It is not punishing. Our God is loving and yet disciplines us for our own good.
We are being conformed to the IMAGE of Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit is the One leading us into all truth.
Sodom and Gomorrah most certainly was about sexual immorality, it was so oppressive and evil that God destroyed it. To say otherwise is to be misquoting Scripture.
It wasn't about rape ifeelfine72. It was about SEXUAL IMMORALITY WHICH INCLUDES ALL OF THOSE!
God has stated what abominations are to HIM! HE is Holy and we are called to be Holy as He is.
None who do such things will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
We live in a time when men have become lovers of themselves, the love of many waxes cold and sexual immorality is at an all time high. The KING of kings is coming soon and the most important thing you can ask yourself, "am I rightly related to Jesus Christ?"
The Boy Scouts in America has always been about God and Country and being a good and moral person. I pray that the LORD will intercede on behal of these Boy Scouts, in Jesus Name, Amen!
Jesus told the woman caught in adultery (and homosexuality is a sin like this), go and sin no more. HE didn't tell her it was okay with HIM if she kept on doing what she was doing before she met HIM!
Jesus Christ loves us all; HE died to set us free from the slavery of sin, all sin, and so why does anyone want to continue on in that slavery.
We were created for so much more and I thank GOD HE has a plan and that He is even now working that out! Praise You Lord God!
ifeelfine...
I think jc4me was refering to John 13:35 when he told you to get saved.
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
Nerohdam - No worries mate. I wish I was as diplomatic as you. You are clearly someone I would listen to in an argument as you seem to take an honest look at both sides. Thank you for that! The Leviticus scripture doesn't bother me as that has to do with the Hebrew cleanliness codes and if you take the homosexual part to be real then you also have to take the consumption of shell fish, the wearing of clothes made of two different fabric, etc which most Christians gave up on long ago (if Christian's ever did those things). . . God hates shrimp! Ha ha!
As for eveyone else and the Thumbs Up and Thumbs Down . . . how did anyone give me a Thumbs Down for being saved? That doesn't make sense.
Didymus,
Nope, I don't approve of childishness no matter who's doing the posting, and I won't give a "thumbs up", no matter how much I agree, if the overall tone is in this vein. However, as none of us is perfect, and these subjects often include a fair amount of passionate response, I think we can allow a little leeway.
I reading my previous post. I realized the word abomination is pretty harsh. As it should be. But also consider murder, lying, stealing etc... an abomination as well. What I am saying is that we ALL fall short. It has come upon me that there may be some who are reading these words who are gay/lesbian and I will right off the bat say I am not condeming you. I love you as you are. But we must understand we live in a fallen world and we must repent (turn away from) the actions that call us to sin. So while the focus of the thread is homosexuality, it also calls the liars, thieves, scrooges, gossips and the rest of us to repent. ALL OF US. We all need the forgiveness of Christ. So again I welcome those in the gay community in dialogue to gain a better understanding of repentence (turning away from) of sin.
ifeelfine72 - LOL you don't need to apologize. I understand your frustration when scripture is taken out of context. We just ask for more grace. Here is a bit of scripture that I found as I am sure most are already aware.
Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination" (NKJV). Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."
Here they call homosexuality an abomination.
I obtained this from the following website http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=17633
The interesting thing about the arguments in this website is that it comes from a person who used to be pro-gay theology. His arguments are that the verses that the pro-gay theologist use have been taken out of context.
Take from it what you will and he makes some good arguments. Let's see where this takes us as he addresses a point mentioned by ifeelfine72 in regard to "One of the most common arguments used by pro-gay theologians, Dallas said, is that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. "
jc4me - I am saved.
Nerohdam - I don't mean to come across as pompous or anything like that. I just get frustrated when I see scripture taken out of context. Personally, I am not sure if homosexuality, the way I know it, is even a sin at all. The only piece of scripture I have any problem with is in Romans. That is the only passage that would seem to condemn homosexuality. And even that seems to be referring to the Roman practice of the time engaging in that kind of behavior with boys (pedastery, not homosexuality). But again, I didn't mean to jump all over you. I am sorry.
Ifeelfine72 - My understanding is yes you are correct the story of Sodom and Gomorrah did include rape as well. However, we get the word sodomy which means unnatural vice. This includes sexual acts with those of the same gender and can also include outside the human species and one could expand upon the few examples I gave if one even cares to but one can get the point.. As for the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah having nothing to do with homosexuality then will remember that the MALE inhabitants wanted to "have their way" with the visiting angels sent to Lot. Instead Lot offered his daughters. The gist of Sodom and Gomorrah is dealing with unnatural sexual deviance in general. I think those with the Spirit inside convicts you when you engage in some sexual behavior that you should not be doing.
Anyway, anything to help EVERYONE get a better idea of the Word in the Bible is good. Thank you ifeelfine72 for your insight. :) . I think we all can provide some good questions and answers so if we could lay aside the "I am the authoritative expert" mask for a while then that would be awesome.
Didymus, I hope you do take me up on the offer as I believe a lot of good will come out of it. iI am by no means an expert in the Bible, but I do read the Bible and it does talk to my heart.
ifeelfine: get saved.
Didymus,
you wrote to TokenSP::
"These comment sections are guarded by some very narrow-minded folks who apparently are only interested in your “repentance” and conformity to their ideology, after a few posts it’s only slapping the beehive to watch the bees fly, sometimes I find it entertaining.)....."
I'm glad you consider born again Christians to be narrow minded. If you have any issue with it, take it up with Jesus Christ the one you claim to follow; this is what His Word the Bible says concerning being "narrow minded". I didn't write the book,so don't shoot the messenger; i just choose to follow what God has said if you choose not to accept it, or teach it in context, then that's your choice before God the Creator of the Universe:
Matthew 7:13
[ The Narrow Way ] “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Matthew 7:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 7:14
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 13:24
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:23-25 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
This is why expository teaching of the Word of God is needed in today's Christian circles. So many wolves in sheep's clothing have gone out to incorrectly twist the Word of God by teaching the doctrines of man, rather than the sound doctrine of Scripture to their shame.
We should be like the Bereans who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what was being taught was true.
jc4me - Will you stop saying who can and cannot call themselves a Christian! Just because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they're not a Christian - a Christian just has to accept that Christ was crucified and died for their sins.
TokenSP - The Bible does not condone the beating of one's wife; you're thinking about the children. It mandates the beating of one's children. Make sure you get that straight.
Nerohdam - Sodom and Gamorrah had nothing to do with homosexuality. It had to do with rape. Stop equating the two. It doesn't show "amazing profoundness," it shows ignorance.
Didymus - right on.
Nerohdam,
You mention, “Also, take care in those wanting a private discussion of the Bible. This is an excellent forum for speaking about the Bible as there are enough people here that will correct misinterpretations of the Word.”
I would like to add that these forums are also often places were certain misinterpretations can be enforced, rather than corrected, and other opinions are drowned out and condemned, rather than discussed.
But maybe I’ll take you up on your invitation. It will have to be later today, as I have other things to attend to.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
I will start by giving the reason why some are so passionate about the whole gay issue. The Bible does state that homosexuality is immorally wrong. It brought down the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. It goes against God's design for man and woman. Scientifically, it does not take a genius to know that a key fits into an lock and a lock against lock and key against key just does not naturally work. You can try and make it work but you get my point it just does not seem to work.
But then the questions arise like but how can God make people who can't control urges to be gay or if God loves everyone then how can he be angry for things and feelings that people can not control.
Ah ha... you have to come to grips with the fact that this is a fallen world. There are only certain times in the Bible that states where God personally intervened but the sin and the various off shoots is the result of man's sinful action. We are kinda reaping what we sowed if you will.
That was the reason God sent His Son Christ in a physical flesh form. Christ was sinless. A perfect sacrifice as our God requires a sacrifice to purify us from sin. It would be horrible if you think about it that there would be no justice for wrongs commited. But this time instead of us having to pay the price, God paid the price himself.
So homosexuality is actually a result of sin. You can see in the Bible where is starts with Adam and works its way down the generations.
I know my thread is rather simplistic yet at the same time it is amazingly profound. Anyway this is just a starting point and then hopfully we can jump to more specific points in a CONSTRUCTIVE and NONJUDGEMENTAL manner... :)
I also extend this invitation to discuss the Bible in a constructive manner to Didymus as well. The tone of your post is actually more well mannered than some of my passionate posters and I can understand why you would want to go off line with your discussion with TokenSP. But please allow a few of us to have a chance to constructively debate your views. We are all in a learning process myself included.
TokenSP,
The Bible is to be taken literally and metaphorically. You will find that there is a reason they call it the LIVING Word.
Also, I would be interested where the Bible condones the beating of one's wife. That does not seem right to me either and it may be one of those instances where the literal interpretation of the Bible but be taken in the whole context of the passage. As I am sure you have been told countless times.
Also, take care in those wanting a private discussion of the Bible. This is an excellent forum for speaking about the Bible as there are enough people here that will correct misinterpretations of the Word. Like you said, no one should be afraid of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and so keeping it out in a public forum is great for that without the emotional rants.
Again communication amongst the flock is a lot safer than going off with the wolf into the woods....
As for you Didymus, you continually antagonize the Bible, God's work, and the Truth. From your own words, you criticize the very Scriptures that are meant to confimr us into the image of Christ and make us the people he wants us to be - reaching out to the lost, but not denying the truth. In case you didn't know Didymus, the Bible does not contain the Word of God; THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD. IF you wish not to follow it, then you have no part calling yourself a born again Christian. If you do not like what the Book of Jude says, or 1Corinthians, or Romans, or John, or for that matter any other part of the Scriptures, then don't call yourself a Christian. From what you've posted thus far, and the antagonistic remarks you've made to the conservative Christians on this site, I can only draw one conclusion - you may know about God intellectually, but my question is, Do you know Him from the heart? And yes, to answer your absurdish remark:",Unfortunately, this thread isn’t the place to discuss it, for the posts will quickly be buried under calls to accept Jesus and quotations of Jude.".............Didymus, in case you didn't know, this is a Christian site by the Christian Post, and when you go on this site, we will quote Scripture, and ask people if they know Jesus, because this is what Jesus calls us to do. Study your Bible Didymus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
Now, Token SP, I think I've answered your question, can you please now answer mine?
you said:
"MMmmmm I've always carried this belief that people shouldnt take the Bible literally, because the Bible is very contradictory and goes against what we find in science. Plus there are so many things in there that seem so bad... such as beating ones wife and such......."
Token SP, I'm curious to know chapter, book and verse where the Bible condones beating one's wife, and while your looking for that, please explain where the Bible cotradicts science, and archaelogy, etc? I'm just wondering if you've ever even read the Bible, or you'r e going by heresay, or opinions from maybe some atheist friends, or some extremely liberal "christians" who have no desire to follow God, and who have no desire to follow the Bible literally?
Proph - I'm sorry, what was the question I didn't answer?
Token SP:
To answer you question, the Bible is to be taken literally, as well as contexually. If one is to be a true follower of Jesus, one must follow God's Commands. Since a Born again Christian cannot deny the deity of Christ as being God's only Son, then one must follow Jesus Christ's commands as well - Love the Lord your God wit all your heart mind and strength, and love your heighbor as yourself. JesusChrist says to forgive, to love,to be compassionate, to have mercy, etc. JesusCrist, God's Son who became God in the flesh humbled himself and came down from His heavenly Throne to give His life for us sinners, and was resurrected on the Third day to conquer hell and death for those wo choose to accept Him.. He is the one way and only way to a relationship with God and to eternal Salvation. True love, will encourage, exhort, rebuke, and tell the truth. For one to dny Jesus' commands either spoken directly from Him or thru His Apostles is to deny the authenticity of His Word whcih is inspired and inherrant. The Gospel message must be taught completely; not just the parts that tickle peoples ears and make them feel good. There are parts in the Bible that will not make us feel good, because they want us to ave a true life changing change in our lives. God wants our best. He knows who we are because He made us. With pertenance to your question, I will quote what Jesus Himself said, and wit pertinence to this post, i will quote what the Apostle Paul said in addressing the Corinthian Church that was having immorality issues at one point:
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
TokenSP,
I read your three posts, and I agree with what you said concerning the comments here and taking the Bible literally. (GMG is correct when he says, “If the debate was reasoned it would be useful,” but unfortunately there isn’t any reasoned debate here. These comment sections are guarded by some very narrow-minded folks who apparently are only interested in your “repentance” and conformity to their ideology, after a few posts it’s only slapping the beehive to watch the bees fly, sometimes I find it entertaining.)
But your first post asks the question, “is being gay immoral because God says it is or because it is in general? If we didnt adhere to religion, would we still consider it bad? Its the same thing as a straight man and straight woman, minus the reproductive advantage. If its bad because God says so, then wouldnt that make morality meaningless?”
That is a really good question, and one worth discussing! Unfortunately, this thread isn’t the place to discuss it, for the posts will quickly be buried under calls to accept Jesus and quotations of Jude. Later today I’ll try posting a blog on my sight if you’re really interested in discussing it. I’d like to give your questions more thought.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
Prophet and GMG your agruments against hate crimes laws in vaild. If you look at Canada's hate crime laws, Sweden hate crime laws, as well as Englands, You can see the pattern over and over. It will happen here if these laws against free speech are past. And to dispute what didymus said the ACLU will not protect them rights for those of us who believe in a God and believe in this Savior Jesus Christ. To say other wise is to not look at this organizations track record. Keep up the fight. TokenSP I believe the Bible is true because it has been shown to be trust worthy, accurate and true to myself as well s others many many times. Not always easly understood, ( i am only human) but eventually I am able to understanding the hard parts as you say it has. Gods Blessing on you and yours. In Christ Tom
MMmmmm I've always carried this belief that people shouldnt take the Bible literally, because the Bible is very contradictory and goes against what we find in science. Plus there are so many things in there that seem so bad... such as beating ones wife and such.. I believe it was... It condones so much! I have a question, as I more than anything, wish to understand the mind of Christians than fight over things that I have no power over. What did you gain from believing the Bible literally? What did you lose? Do you think you are better off? Are there things you dont understand? Do you ever consider taking the Bible less literally? Do you believe you can only get into heaven through believing in the Bible literally?
Oh my... just went back and read the comments.. it would seem to me that what these threads lack is the ability to accept criticism. It seems to me that people feel like they are being attacked, and rather than listen to whats being said, they just attack back or find the quickest way to point an error in their critics, rather than accepting the criticism, and deciphering what it means... But maybe its the whole emotional side to it that makes these debates a little different than other debates.. it would not be proper to doubt oneself when one is defending the bible, for it would seem that they are doubting the bible, and therefore creating a sin. Tis an interesting situation it is.
I dont intend to talk much, merely put in my new perspective on gays. What I want to know is, is being gay immoral because God says it is or because it is in general? If we didnt adhere to religion, would we still consider it bad? Its the same thing as a straight man and straight woman, minus the reproductive advantage. If its bad because God says so, then wouldnt that make morality meaningless? Just wondering ^^.
GMG
Let him rant. Out of the abundance of his heart, his mouth speaks. People can read his and our posts and judge accordingly.
and you find jc4me's quoting of scripture humorus? Offensive? Because it has no place in you? It is not a part of your life?
I Corinthians 2:13-14
"13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
didymus....you said
"All Prophet could muster as a response is:
----------
You just made my point...Hate crime bill is unneccesary. all it will do, is set the stage for placing restrictions (whether they are adhered to or not) on what we can and can't say. And i am of no political affiliation.
And you certainly seem to be trying awful hard to get a rise out of us."
Yes. Why? Were you expecting something different? Sometimes I don't need a long answer, especially when you answer your own question for me.
And then you said "Comedy ;^) (BTW, the hate crimes bill didn’t have any of those “restrictions” that Prophet is referring to.)" Very observant. What i did say though is "all it will do, is set the stage for placing restrictions". Please pay attention. It makes it easier when I don't have to go back and repost everything I've already said.
GMG,
Now wait, this is an interesting thing (sorry I haven’t gone yet), you mention, “belittling comments are childish”, and yet the two antagonists I’ve mentioned, that you’ve been giving thumbs up to, have been making belittling comments all over the place. Does that mean you approve of childishness in this discussion?
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
GMG,
If the debate was reasoned it would be useful. I retract my comment about the thumbs up.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
Didymus -
They didn't give themselves one thumb "up", I did. Care to retract that one little part of your comedy script? Reasoned debate is useful, belittling comments are childish.
Readers:
For those of you few tenacious readers out there who have followed this discussion, I commend your endurance; I hope it has been as entertaining for you as it has been for me.
But I most move on to other articles :^)
And before this post is buried under voluminous quotes of the epistle of Jude, and also since the two antagonists of this thread (jc4me and Prophet) have obviously run out of things to say, I wish to just point out the funniness of their last few posts.
I pointed out to Prophet below:
-------
Yesterday, it was hate crime legislation will “shut the mouths” of those preaching the gospel, but today, the “only thing I don't like about the hate crime policy” is ah… it’s all the same… a dead guys a dead guy.
What a joke! You are hot wind. You must be just some Republican operative here to post blather. Does the Republican Party pay you to post here by hour, or by the word? (I’d guess by word since you post so many of them.)
And I’ve noticed that both you and jc4me give yourselves one thumbs up every time you post. That is such classic hubris. Comedy!
---------
All Prophet could muster as a response is:
----------
You just made my point...Hate crime bill is unneccesary. all it will do, is set the stage for placing restrictions (whether they are adhered to or not) on what we can and can't say. And i am of no political affiliation.
And you certainly seem to be trying awful hard to get a rise out of us.
----------
Comedy ;^) (BTW, the hate crimes bill didn’t have any of those “restrictions” that Prophet is referring to.)
And as for jc4me, after saying, “I'm done disputing with you Didymus… thank you, and good night.” He proceeds to quote almost all of Jude… FOR THE SECOND TIME IN THIS THREAD!
Comedy!
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
didymus...
You just made my point...Hate crime bill is unneccesary. all it will do, is set the stage for placing restrictions (whether they are adhered to or not) on what we can and can't say. And i am of no political affiliation.
And you certainly seem to be trying awful hard to get a rise out of us.
Continued: Book of Jude
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Apostates Depraved and Doomed
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
Apostates Predicted
16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.
The Book of Jude: (New King James Version)
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Didymus wrote:
"You two knuckleheads need to be antagonized, and I’m glad you are antagonized (I don’t feel one bit sorry for you two.) You think you’re all rough, tough, and buff, but you guys are blind, deaf, dumb, and (yuk!) naked. I’m glad I could be a little bur in your butt today. It’s been fun, thank you."
The Scripture says:
Psalm 34:13
Keep your tongue from evil,And your lips from speaking deceit.
Psalm 34:12-14 (in Context) Psalm 34 (Whole Chapter)
Didymus further wrote:
"Look, don’t worry about hate crime legislation silencing the gospel here in America; the ACLU will defend your right to freely condemn anybody you want to........"
"In short, The ACLU supports the rights of those “groups whose bigoted views we may all find repugnant”, allowing you to express your “bigoted beliefs” as much as you want to without fear of prosecution. "
jc4me wrote:
I don't fear the ACLU; that's why God put Christian attorneys on this earth such as the Liberty Counsel and the ACLJ to challenge the lies of the secular humanists and social liberals in all levels of this nation. If and when persecution comes God will be right there with me to give me the grace to endure it just like He gave Jesus and His Disciples the Grace to endure it.
All that good men need to do in order for evil to triumph is to stand by and do nothing Didymus. I find it funny that you call yourself a Christian Didymus, yet, how odd that you should quote the ACLU; furthermore implying that the Bible's teachings on homosexuality are bigotry. We as Christians need to be in opposition of homosexual ordenation in churches, as well as "sexual orientation" classes for boy scouts; which obviously you aren't, because you keep throwing your little pun intended remarks at me. You can go ahead and mock me and anyone else you want, but God is watching.
I'm done disputing with you Didymus; although I do forgive you because the Lord commands me to do so. Hopefully the Lord will open your eyes, conviction will set in, and you'll trully grow up in the faith, and leave your very subtle, slightly liberal slant behind. thank you, and good night.
Prophet,
Wait a second here, didn’t you say,
“The acceptance of homosexuality will lead to gay marriages...and then to special rights...and acceptance of them into hate crimes...which will give them more power to shut the mouths (as well as the Gospel) of people preaching it's sinfulness.”
And now you’re saying,
“The only thing I don't like about the hate crime policy is that if you kill someone just because they pissed you off, is a lesser offense than if you kill someone for their belief/gender/ etc,etc I think the penalties are stiff enough. A dead person is still a dead person. Just because they were killed for being a homosexual doesn't make them more dead.”
Yesterday, it was hate crime legislation will “shut the mouths” of those preaching the gospel, but today, the “only thing I don't like about the hate crime policy” is ah… it’s all the same… a dead guys a dead guy.
What a joke! You are hot wind. You must be just some Republican operative here to post blather. Does the Republican Party pay you to post here by hour, or by the word? (I’d guess by word since you post so many of them.)
And I’ve noticed that both you and jc4me give yourselves one thumbs up every time you post. That is such classic hubris. Comedy!
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com
The only thing I don't like about the hate crime policy is that if you kill someone just because they pissed you off, is a lesser offense than if you kill someone for their belief/gender/ etc,etc I think the penalties are stiff enough. A dead person is still a dead person. Just because they were killed for being a homosexual doesn't make them more dead.
jc4me,
And just to make my point about the ACLU, the recent hate crimes bill (I believe it didn’t pass) was only supported by the ACLU after it was modified. Here’s some excerpts from one ACLU press release:
-----------
“After more than seven years of expressing concerns that federal hate crimes legislation would chill constitutionally protected speech, the American Civil Liberties Union today endorsed a new hate crimes bill introduced by Rep. John Conyers (D-MI).
The Conyers measure, which includes protections against hate crimes committed on the bases of gender identity and sexual orientation, also includes an explicit ban on the use of speech or association to prove criminal activity, unless it specifically relates to the crime.
The ACLU has for years declined to endorse federal hate crimes bills because they lacked key free speech protections. The Conyers legislation, however, removes the danger that unrelated speech-related evidence would be used as a basis for convicting a person of a hate crime. It also eliminates the risk of prosecutors focusing on "guilt by association" with groups whose bigoted views we may all find repugnant, but which had no role in committing the violent act.
"This law would punish acts of discrimination, but not bigoted beliefs," Anders said. "Congress should act to punish persons for violent acts when victims were selected only because of who they are."
---------
In short, The ACLU supports the rights of those “groups whose bigoted views we may all find repugnant”, allowing you to express your “bigoted beliefs” as much as you want to without fear of prosecution.
Link to above press release: http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/gen/12252prs20050526.html
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com
jc4me,
I’m not sure what the point of your last post is (5 posts below) since I didn’t dispute the Boy Scouts honor code. As you will note my original post on this thread was to dispute the use of blatantly false information, and bad judgment on the part of one poster below (rolln4him).
As for the Canadian hate crimes legislation, I’ve heard about that, so… what’s your point? How does that change what I’ve said?
Look, don’t worry about hate crime legislation silencing the gospel here in America; the ACLU will defend your right to freely condemn anybody you want to.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com
btw...no, i teach my children to NOT sin. They know the difference between right and wrong. They're not perfect, but they know the difference.
Accepting sin is, itself, sin! And to teach a child that sin is okay is to train them up into sin. And they will grow up accepting sin. And be separated from God.
off into the sunset, huh?
You can call me chicken little. Names don't bother me. I know that God has a better name for me: "son".
Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
Philippians 2:15 "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;"
1 John 3:1-2 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
And I asked you a question. Why won't you answer. I don't need to martyr myself. I have people like you to do that.
Here's what Proph. said:
so you're saying that when the homosexual wants the ability to get married and raise a family (teaching their innocent children how to sin), I should look away? And when they want special status under a hate crime, i should look away? And when they want to say that it is illegal to speak out against gays or else face fines or imprisonment, i should look away?
Just because I speak that evil times will get worse, doesn't mean I'm chicken little.
That sounds like Chicken Little to me. BTW, you claim that they are teaching their children to sin. How is that? Do you teach your children to sin? Do you think homosexuality is something that rubs off on other people?
Didymus - this is the way Proph is. He makes outlandish statements that you have to respond to (ie, questioning your Christianity, etc) and then when you respond and poke at him a little, he comes back and plays the martyr, talks about how he will pray for you, that you lack maturity and says some other condescending stuff and then goes off into the sunset.
It really saddens me to see this. The boy scouts have done a lot of good and given a lot of guidance to boys who had no role models. I my self am an eagle scout and I am very thankful for everything that I gained out of the organization. I really wish that these officials would focus their time on something more constructive for the youth especially in the city.
Didymus, again - the boy scouts have every right to keep a code of honor within their organization. if that code of honor includes the exclusion of sexual preferences, orientations and the like, then so be it. They are a Christian organization and as such, should not have to be required to have "sensitivity training" for it's scouts. And by the way, this hate crimes legislation that is surely on it's way is already in force in a similar law in liberal/socialist Canada, where pastors are not allowed to open a Bible in the street because the Bible has "offensive" (convicting) literature towards those of the homosexual lifestyle.
Dear Sir You boy scouts now is the time to pack up your things and move out. There must be a church building were you can go. Suspend your meeting until a building, hall, basement can be located Do not let these corrupt officals boss you please just move Do you see the girls scouts have to go through the same corruption. No not likely Thank you Dan
"PS. I still love you guys, even if we’re enemies. "
Is that your opinion? Apparently, the feeling is NOT mutual. Only you would think of me as your enemy. I certainly don't. I disagree with my father on a lot of scriptural subjects (he's an ordaing minister), but I certainly don't hate him. As I dont think of you as my enemy. I hope you'll get over that soon. It's a bad view to have of your Christian brother.
And as far as being deaf, dumb, blind and naked...God speaks to me, and guides me by His Light along the path He has set before me. He uses me often, and has even greater things for me to do. Not that I'll ever be famous, but He has something for me to do. So, you see, I am neither deaf, nor blind, nor dumb, nor even naked. I am clothed in His righteousness. And I seek His will daily in my life. Once again, I dont take offense at what you say, because you don't know me, or my relationship with God.
"You two knuckleheads need to be antagonized, and I’m glad you are antagonized (I don’t feel one bit sorry for you two.) You think you’re all rough, tough, and buff, but you guys are blind, deaf, dumb, and (yuk!) naked. I’m glad I could be a little bur in your butt today. It’s been fun, thank you."
For one, I am not in the least bit antagonized. And as your comment shows that you are not here to speak the truth, but to antagonize. I'll pray that God will help me to express myself more in love...without compromising the truth. I will pray that God will give you wisdom and maturity. You're comments above express immaturity. Am I perfect? No. But why do you resort to name calling and playground bully tactics?
"Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."
In my training as a counselor I've learned that people who do that, do so because their argument is so weak that it is all they have left. Is that true? If not, then I'm sure you could get your point across a little more maturely and Christian-like.
jc4me & Prophet,
I come back for a look and low and behold…
jc4me said, “don't antagonize us ok.”
You two knuckleheads need to be antagonized, and I’m glad you are antagonized (I don’t feel one bit sorry for you two.) You think you’re all rough, tough, and buff, but you guys are blind, deaf, dumb, and (yuk!) naked. I’m glad I could be a little bur in your butt today. It’s been fun, thank you.
You know my blog site, come by and comment sometime :^)
PS. I still love you guys, even if we’re enemies.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
didymus...
so you're saying that when the homosexual wants the ability to get married and raise a family (teaching their innocent children how to sin), I should look away? And when they want special status under a hate crime, i should look away? And when they want to say that it is illegal to speak out against gays or else face fines or imprisonment, i should look away?
Just because I speak that evil times will get worse, doesn't mean I'm chicken little. I believe there will come a day when Christians will be openly persecuted without consequence. it could even possibly be promoted by the one world government and/or religion. And I also know that as the day of Christ's return gets closer, it will get harder and harder to turn men's (mankind) hearts to God.
"Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee." Isaiah 60:1-2
Didymus, in addition, the boy scouts have every right to keep a code of honor within their organization. if that code of honor includes the exclusion of sexual preferences, orientations and the like, then so be it. They are a Christian organization and as such, should not have to be required to have "sensitivity training" for it's scouts. And by the way, this hate crimes legislation that is surely on it's way is already in force in a similar law in liberal/socialist Canada, where pastors are not allowed to open a Bible in the street because the Bible has "offensive" (convicting) literature towards those of the homosexual lifestyle.
The Book of Jude:
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
To those who are called, sanctified[a] by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.
Footnotes:
Jude 1:1 NU-Text reads beloved.
Jude 1:4 NU-Text omits God.
Jude 1:12 NU-Text and M-Text read along.
Jude 1:22 NU-Text reads who are doubting (or making distinctions).
Jude 1:23 NU-Text adds and on some have mercy with fear and omits with fear in first clause.
Jude 1:24 M-Text reads them.
Jude 1:25 NU-Text reads To the only God our Savior.
Jude 1:25 NU-Text omits Who . . . is wise and adds Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jude 1:25 NU-Text adds Before all time.
Book of Jude Continued:
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
Glory to God
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you[f] from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior,[g]
Who alone is wise,[h]
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,[i]
Both now and forever.
Amen.
Continued: Book of Jude
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Apostates Depraved and Doomed
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
Apostates Predicted
16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.
The Book of Jude: (New King James Version)
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Didymus, don't antagonize us ok. Everyone on this site knows that your initial premise was in response to "tutu" or "tuti" or whatever his name was. By "tutu's" arguments, he is clearly by default in agreement with the ordaining of homosexual clergy when he is calling the other brethren obsessed, which would further point that tolerance in that respect is ok.
By your post, you agreed with him that consevative Christians were obsessed with homosexuality. We showed you biblically why we are not obsessed, but are only exposing why we believe this to be a mockery of the church, and you go and turn it all around and put your own little liberal spin on it. By the way, i stick by my comments about the emergent/seeker friendly church, and while they may not directly be related to you as an individual, you have more in common with them than you do with conservative othodox Christianity; they take the same arguments, and spin them the same way you do.
You can mock me or anyone else all you want, but God is not mocked. hopefully one day He will open your eyes to the truth, because it's people like you who trully create a mockery of orthodox Christianity by playing both sides of the argument. One foot in, and one foot out.
Prophet,
I am sorry you think I hate you (I don’t) and mocking you (well I am a little). It does appear that you have forgotten that I also think homosexuality is a sin.
But since I am finished cleaning this house of mine (in between typing responses here), I’ll leave this parting note. You said, “but this will bring about penalties in an attempt to shut us up. And who says it will stop at financial penalties or jail time. Why not give Satan credit. Those are just stepping stones. Satan is real...and his only goal is to kill, rob, and destroy....not have someone pay a $120 fine.” You do realize that the homosexual community feels the same fear as you express here, but they feel it from you (and I mean in general, not specific). They feel the condemnation, but they don’t see the love. I agree with you, Satan is real, and he hates the Christian community, but he also hates the homosexual community, and I think he has found a unique and very subversive way to express his hated for them, he uses the Christian community to show his hate.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
and its okay, didymus, you can mock me. I'm in good company.
Jeremiah 20:7-11
"O LORD, You induced me, and I was persuaded;
You are stronger than I, and have prevailed.
I am in derision daily;
Everyone mocks me.
8 For when I spoke, I cried out;
I shouted, “Violence and plunder!”
Because the word of the LORD was made to me
A reproach and a derision daily.
9 Then I said, “I will not make mention of Him,
Nor speak anymore in His name.”
But His word was in my heart like a burning fire
Shut up in my bones;
I was weary of holding it back,
And I could not.
10 For I heard many mocking:
“ Fear on every side!”
“ Report,” they say, “and we will report it!”
All my acquaintances watched for my stumbling, saying,
“ Perhaps he can be induced;
Then we will prevail against him,
And we will take our revenge on him.”
11 But the LORD is with me as a mighty, awesome One.
Therefore my persecutors will stumble, and will not prevail.
They will be greatly ashamed, for they will not prosper.
Their everlasting confusion will never be forgotten"
NKJV
"Dude, your a wimp." O man...I can't stop laughing.
I guess, I should have been more specific when speaking to you. I know that they will never be able to shut us up...but this will bring about penalties in an attempt to shut us up. And who says it will stop at financial penalties or jail time. Why not give Satan credit. Those are just stepping stones. Satan is real...and his only goal is to kill, rob, and destroy....not have someone pay a $120 fine.
And such hatred. Where did that come from? You'll love Bin Laden who wants to kill you, but hate your brother?
And I wouldn't speak about persecution. Since you, as well, have not gone through any more that I.
By the way...what you said about the expample of me marrying my sister is sooooooo old testament. Since so many pro-gay people like to say that to us Christians about the scriptures we use to show them their sin, i figured I'd use that excuse too. That is the point im getting across. Homosexuality is a sin. By the way...No, I'm not marrying her, in case you get the urge to imply.
jc4me,
You mention, “You are really starting to make me wonder about you.”
Only starting eh… hmmm… sounds like I’ll have to try harder.
You also mention, “…but this does not mean you should literally go out and look for [persecution]. If God should allow you to go thru it, then He will gve you the grace to edure it.
Well, I don’t think you should go out and look for it either, but you shouldn’t be afraid of it. And you guys definitely give the impression that you are afraid of the power of homosexuals to silence you (or at least Prophet does). Look, Prophet I think has made a bad argument to say why he opposes homosexuals getting married. His little chain of events leads to an absurdity: acceptance of homosexuality > gay marriages > special rights for gays > preaching against sin called a hate crime > gays given power to shut the mouths of those preaching the gospel. This will not shut the mouth of any Christian preaching the gospel, and to say it will is absurd. (If Prophet does actually believe that it will, then Prophet really is a wimp, because maybe homosexual power will shut his mouth, but it will not shut the mouth of the church.)
Honestly, if homosexual marriage was to be legalized tomorrow, and preaching against it was to be declared a hate crime, and prison sentences were to be doled out (all of which I seriously doubt will actually happen), I’ll be the same Christian I was yesterday. It’s not the end world, it’s not the end of America, and America won’t be any more ungodly than it already is.
But let’s take a little closer look at Prophets little chain of events, where acceptance of homosexuality leads directly to the silencing of the church, this is fear mongering. Basically he’s saying: “Live in fear! Live in fear!!! If you give in a little here, they will take over the world – the apocalypse!!! AHHHH!!!” Again, this is absurd, for Christians need not fear any worldly powers.
As for your other question that you wanted me to answer honestly, I did so on the other comments thread.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
Didymus:
"You ask, “I'm wodering if didymus thinks that if i were to marry my sister, that I'm sinning.”
What a dumb question. Tell you what, I’ll let Ken Ham over at Answers in Genesis give you at least a partial answer, and let you figure out the rest. Here’s a link to “Cain’s wife—who was she?”: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/tools/cains_wife.asp"
Hmmmmm....Let's see, how much more will you distort Prophet's statement's out of context Didymus; just as you have mine?
Didymus:
"Are you kidding me… you’re afraid they will “shut the mouths” of those preaching the gospel… Peter was crucified, Paul was beheaded, Stephen was stoned, Polycarp was BBQ’d, thousands of other Christians were tortured, crucified, and torn apart and eaten by lions, and yet, despite the power of the Roman Empire to snuff out the lives of Christians, the Word spread. But you’re trying to tell me that “homosexual power” is going to “shut the mouths” of those preaching the gospel. The courts are going to say that you’re committing a “hate crime” for calling people out on sin, they’re going to fine you $120, or maybe even (God forbid) a $1200, maybe put you in jail three weeks, or maybe three whole months. Oo Ah!
Dude, you’re a wimp!
You don’t know what persecution is. You need some real persecution, it’ll toughen you up, make you a real Christian. (I’ll pray for you get some.)"
You are really starting to make me wonder about you. How can you spin what Prophet is saying by implying that born again Christians who warn about the dangers of promiscuity, homosexuality, and how unbiblical it is to ordain homosexual priests and pastors want to retain morals in society are not welcoming persecution. Oh, you can be sure persecution is coming to America, as well as the rest of the world, but this does not mean you should literally go out and look for it. If God should allow you to go thru it, then He will gve you the grace to edure it.
Didymus, I have one question for you. I hope you will be honest enough to answer it.
Do you believe it is biblical to ordain practicing homosexuals to leadership positions within the church?
Prophet,
You mention, “The acceptance of homosexuality will lead to gay marriages...and then to special rights...and acceptance of them into hate crimes...which will give them more power to shut the mouths (as well as the Gospel) of people preaching it's sinfulness.”
Are you kidding me… you’re afraid they will “shut the mouths” of those preaching the gospel… Peter was crucified, Paul was beheaded, Stephen was stoned, Polycarp was BBQ’d, thousands of other Christians were tortured, crucified, and torn apart and eaten by lions, and yet, despite the power of the Roman Empire to snuff out the lives of Christians, the Word spread. But you’re trying to tell me that “homosexual power” is going to “shut the mouths” of those preaching the gospel. The courts are going to say that you’re committing a “hate crime” for calling people out on sin, they’re going to fine you $120, or maybe even (God forbid) a $1200, maybe put you in jail three weeks, or maybe three whole months. Oo Ah!
Dude, you’re a wimp!
You don’t know what persecution is. You need some real persecution, it’ll toughen you up, make you a real Christian. (I’ll pray for you get some.)
You ask, “I'm wodering if didymus thinks that if i were to marry my sister, that I'm sinning.”
What a dumb question. Tell you what, I’ll let Ken Ham over at Answers in Genesis give you at least a partial answer, and let you figure out the rest. Here’s a link to “Cain’s wife—who was she?”: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/tools/cains_wife.asp
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
I'm wodering if didymus thinks that if i were to marry my sister, that I'm sinning.
yeah, he also said:
"In the days of the Roman Empire, the early church was surrounded sick and twisted paganism. What did the church do? They just went about the business of being the church – changing hearts and minds through the gospel. When the church obtained political power in the 4th century, what did the church do? It became worldly. "
I see how Paul went about the business of being the church in his letter to Romans ( a letter to those same paganistic Romans that you refered to)where he told them that their lifestyle was sinful. So you proved nothing but my point.
Although by your convesation, I am not sure whether you are a Christian or not (which is disturbing), but I think you claim to be.
The acceptance of homosexuality will lead to gay marriages...and then to special rights...and acceptance of them into hate crimes...which will give them more power to shut the mouths (as well as the Gospel) of people preaching it's sinfulness.
Hey Prophet, to quote didymus who seems to be an emergent church friendly individual:
"Prophet,
I think we need to rethink some things."
This is exactly what Brian Mclaren the leading voice in the emergent/emerging church teaches. Whic he coincidentaly has an anti-biblical stance on hell and homosexuality. He is trying to "re-think" or "re-invent" Christianity. Mr. Mclaren wants to change everyting that is "offensive" in the Bible to make Christianity more appealing to the eyes of the world. This is the coming apostacy theBible wars us about. It is here today. As the book of Romans teaches, men will be lovers of themselves rather than lovers of God. I rest my case.
Prophet,
I think we need to rethink some things.
You mention, “To impose sin on a country that was once so Godly will destroy it. As we've seen in the last 50 years (and its not just because of homosexuality).”
Fifty years ago we had segregation, “separate but equal” was in reality a joke, white people were considered by many white people as superior to black people, because white was considered more righteous than black. It took the use of military powers to enforce a change to this. Read up on Manifest Destiny and how that effected the Indian populations out here in the west, slavery, which took a civil war to end, read Upton Sinclair’s book The Jungle, which shows just how beautiful America’s corporate greed really looks, etc. America has never been a godly nation, and looking back to some “godly” time in this nations history is pure fantasy. It is now and has always been a part of this fallen and sinful world.
You mention, “I do not like them trying to change the God given definition of marriage.”
If the government were to allow homosexual marriage, honestly, how would that affect you? How would that force you to change your Christianity? Would your church be forced to accept homosexuality? Are you worried about your church’s 501.3(c) status? How would America really be any more fallen than it already is? Would it make you any less of an American?
In the days of the Roman Empire, the early church was surrounded sick and twisted paganism. What did the church do? They just went about the business of being the church – changing hearts and minds through the gospel. When the church obtained political power in the 4th century, what did the church do? It became worldly.
Honestly, if our government okays gay marriage, it’s not the end of the world, it’s not the end of America, it’s just another manifestation of the worldliness that is. The solution is simple – the church just goes out changing hearts and minds through the gospel.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
Now as far as your other comment...I can only speak for myself. I do not want to exclude homosexuals from every sector of society. I have worked side by side with them. They are just as human as i am. They knew my beliefs and I knew theirs. I would even sit with them during breaks and talk about this and that with them...like i'd talk to anyone else. But I do not agree with them seeking special rights. I do not like them trying to change the God given definition of marriage. Homosexuality is a sin. To impose sin on a country that was once so Godly will destroy it. As we've seen in the last 50 years (and its not just because of homosexuality).
didymus-
I agree with you. Making up, or falsely reporting information (i.e. "I understand that 80% of gay men are pedophiles as well") is a bad way to get your point across. There have been many thngs I've "heard" that i've wanted to post, but I don't. Because I have nothing more than hear-say to back it up. Or I'll say it, with a disclaimer stating that this is just what I've heard...not necessarily the truth. I do that sometimes hoping that someone else has heard the same thing and actually have the source it came from.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." I Corinthians 6:9-11 (King James Version)
effeminate: having unsuitable feminine qualities, (of a man or boy) having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine
rolln4him said, “The homosexual community continues to be intolerant of others and their belief.”
Even though I believe homosexuality is a sin I think it is weird when someone who wants to exclude certain people from just about every sector of society actually has the gall to call those certain people “intolerant” when they disagree with him.
rolln4him also said, “I understand that 80% of gay men are pedophiles as well”
This is simply a lie, and a disgusting lie at that. It is propaganda that paints gay men as criminals, and promotes only irrational fear and hate.
It is beyond my understanding why some feel that lies, misinformation, and propaganda are needed to defend/uphold the Christian position. As if Christ needed such propaganda to defend his majesty. Honestly, the use of such misinformation is like throwing $#@T at Jesus, and saying, “it makes him look better.”
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
The homosexual community should organize their own organizations instead of always portraying themselves as victims and claiming that everyone else is intolerant. Their behavor is self evident.
Our days of freedom of conscience are almost at an end unless Christians double their prayers.
Stand firm, Boy Scouts!!
This is so outrageous. I'm from Philly and I am so writing a letter in protest. Not that the overwhelmingly Democratic city government will care.
The homosexual community continues to be intolerant of others and their belief. Of course there're discriminatory policies in place in any organization. Should the Boy Scouts not be discriminate of those that have a pedophile sexual orientation? Where's the line? I understand that 80% of gay men are pedophiles as well, so why not just let the flood gates of sexual perversion open and have true non-discriminatory practices and allow anything and everything through? May God have mercy on our nation.
The war contuinues. Everything and anything that stands for God ideal is under assault and make no mistake about it, the Boy Scouts of America is based in reverency to God. It's in the Scout Laws. It is a shameful act of blackmail the city of Philidelphia is committing. A private non-profit organization such as scouting should be able to manage their membership according to it's laws and by-laws. If a person cannot follow it rules then they should be excluded from it's membership. We are forced to keep religious views out of the public but yet we are publicly forced to swallow ideals we do not agree with. What a bitter pill. As a life scout I am terribly dissappointed not only in the city of Philly, but in the local chapters willingness to renounce affilliation. Stand firm in your convictions!! I pray for the resolve of this.