What the Bible says about Jesus vs. what Mormonism says about Jesus:
The Bible
• He is the virgin-born Son of God, conceived by the Holy Ghost (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:34-35).
Mormonism
• Jesus "was born in the same personal, real and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father" (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 547, 742).
• "When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten Him in His own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family (Adam)" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. I, p. 50).
• Christ had a "unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal or resurrected and glorified Father (Adam)" (James Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 473).
The Bible
• Satan is a created - and fallen - angel (Isaiah 14:12).
Mormonism
• "Lucifer - this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind" (Milton R. Hunter of the First Council of Seventy, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).
The Bible
• Jesus did not marry.
Mormonism
• "Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana - We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into relation whereby he could see his seed" (Orson Hyde, apostle, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 82).
The Bible
• Jesus is the foundation of the true church (Matthew 16:18; Acts 4:11-12; Colossians 1:18).
Mormonism
• Joseph Smith: "I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 408-9).
The Bible
• Jesus is the judge of all (John 5:22).
Mormonism
• "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith … Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, Junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).
The Bible
• Jesus is the one who resurrects all (John 5:28-29).
Mormonism
• Joseph Smith will receive the keys of the resurrection. "If we ask who will stand at the head of the resurrection in this last dispensation, the answer is - Joseph Smith, Junior, the Prophet of God. He is the man who will be resurrected and receive the keys of the resurrection, and he will seal this authority upon others, and they will hunt up their friends and resurrect them" (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 116).
The Bible
• Jesus is the eternal Son of God, the Creator, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and Holy Spirit (John 1:1-14; Colossians 1:15-20; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 1:1-13).
Mormonism
• A "council of the Gods" created the world. "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it … In all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 308, 474).
What the Bible says about the Holy Spirit vs. what Mormonism says about the Holy Spirit: Continue >>
Isn't it ironic that "Christians" are guilty of such hateful speaking? It's this kind of hypocrisy that turns so many of the irreligious even further from a meaningful relationship with Christ. If the "salt of the earth" can't live Christ's teachings, why should anyone else.
Why don't those who want to constantly criticize the faith of another find something productive to do with your time. Try putting your own faith into practice (which includes the message of loving thy neighbor, I might add) by serving the destitute, the poor, the widowed, the sick, etc. The Lord only gives us so many minutes upon the face of this planet and here you sit worrying about what someone else believes.
You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
There are women living in Salt Lake City in this year of grace, 1882, who were secret
plural wives to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, deceiving their own husbands, because they dared not brave the prophet’s anger and its consequences. For then, as to-day, the Mormon weapon against its antagonists was slander. The man or woman who has the moral courage to apostatize, becomes a target for the vilest kind of abuse and falsehood.
(The Women of Mormonism or The Story of Polygamy As Told By The Victims Themselves - Edited by Jennie Anderson Froiseth - 1882)
Mormons core beliefs about Jesus Christ are contained in the Bible, Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. Quoting partial statements of Brigham Young, Jospeh Smith or any other LDS church leaders, past or present, in an effort to illustrate that LDS teachings are non-Christian, however well intended, does a great disservice to everyone. If someone really wants to know what Latter-Day Saints believe and teach about Christ, consider starting with what the Book of Mormon has to say about it, even if you believe that it was made up by Joseph Smith, which would simply place it on the same footing as the writings of any number of modern theologians. They have a very comprehensive web site at www.lds.org. Rather than assume someone else's opinion is correct, why not find out for yourself what they believe and teach?
Internal dissensions and financial troubles arose and multiplied; prophecies failed of fruition, promised miracles were not realized, alleged translations by Smith were proven fraudulent and many apostatized. Men within the inner circle hurled the most serious charges of dishonesty and immorality at each other; fights occurred in the temple in which knives and pistols had their part. (Mormonism, The Islam of America by Bruce Kinney, D.D. Formerly Superintendent of Baptist Mission* in Utah, Copyright 1912)
Pomeroy Tucker, who was well acquainted with Joseph, his family, and most of his earlier followers, testifies that as a youth and young man he was "noted for his indolent and vagabondish character, and his habits of exaggeration and un-truthfulness." [1] (A Fourfold Test of Mormonism by Henry C. Sheldon, Professor in Boston University, 1914)
[1] Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism, p. 16.
Mormons are not Creedal Christians. However, they do believe in the Jesus Christ of the New Testament:
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article http://mormonsarechristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination. For example, Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”
One Baptist blogger stated “99 percent of the members of his Baptist church believe in the Mormon (and Early Christian) view of the Trinity. It is the preachers who insist on the Nicene Creed definition.” It seems to me the reason the pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is to protect their flock (and their livelihood).
This is late, and I am sure that you probably wont get this but, Jesus said that there were some who would call Him Lord, but He would say He doesn't know them.
Although, that would put you in a bit of a quandry since Paul declared that "that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1 Cor. 12:3).
The Book of Mormon declares that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior of the world over and over and over again.
The Books of Mormon speak for themselves. They are contrary to the Word of God.
I do think that there is some truth in every religion, and the Spirit will testify of the truth of those things to the adherents of those religions. But the Spirit will testify strongest of the church which has God's full truth.
What do I mean by God answering me by the power of the Holy Ghost? The Holy Ghost answers in various ways. The Bible teaches that the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance (Gal. 5:22-23). When we feel these things, we know it is coming from the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is testifying of truth. Sometimes the Spirit tells us by a still small voice (1 Kgs. 19:12). Sometimes it is a burning feeling in the bosom (D&C 9:8). Sometimes it is just by living the doctrine that we can know that it is from God (John 7:17). The Spirit will testify to us that it is truly from Him. It is by these ways that I know that the LDS Church is the Lord's true church. The Spirit has witnessed to me that it is true.
Sorry about misspelling the name Hesadanza! I should double check sometimes.
Hedanza,
I do not believe in the LDS church, or Joseph Smith for that matter, I find his teachings to be directly contrarty to the Bible (NT/OT) that he built his faith upon and also to reason. I could theoretically be wrong though, and I do not want to criticize you as a person or your belief as being less than sincere. What you said about the Holy Spirit truly intrigues me. What do you mean by, God answering you by the power of the Holy Ghost? I have heard many people say similar things about their faiths (not all mainline Christian, some unification some Jehovah's witness some others) and within that many say that the Holy Spirit is leading them in a way that is directly against the LDS church. There is one of two things happening here, either the Holy Spirit works against God and His purposes (which cannot be true), or somebody, no many people, are deluded and either purposefully or unkowingly using the Holy Spirit for their own purposes. It is extremly important that we do not attribute something to the Holy Spirit that is not true or else we might be guilty of sinning against the Holy Spirit, which as Christ said was the only sin that could not be forgiven. I am not saying that you are one of the people doing this, and I truly want to know why you say that. There is nothing wrong with just saying it is a personal conviction too, but let it be what it is.
Wow. You sure are a rhetorician. Unfortunately, your command of the English language suffers a little bit, and I can't understand what you are saying.
I know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth. It has the authority of the priesthood of God to preach the gospel, and administer in the ordinances thereof. It was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know that the prophets and apostles of this church receive revelation from God in order to lead and direct us. Christ is at the head of this Church. It is only by praying to God and asking Him that we may know the truth (James 1:5-6). I have so asked, and God has answered, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Actually, I think I'm done here. Hesadanza, carry on if you wish - I've learned a lot from you. Thanks.
PeaceByJesus, your mind is closed. . . . But then so is mine. We have the truth. I know it and I know God knows it. We're going in circles and there are better ways to spend one's time. Thanks for the lively debate.
PeaceByJesus, Sorry, I find your posts extremely hard to understand. (No offense, but you are very wordy.) I'm still trying to decifer what you are saying, but it will take time.
As for “all power” being given Him,” this does not signify a change in His being, rather that of Him acting as a regent for God the Father, using such powers as God used to create the worlds thru Him. There is order in the Godhead. Whatever changes took place in Jesus physical body, in taking upon a glorified one, nothing changed as far as His essential being of Deity (the Word was God). was concerned All told, there is nothing that establishes eternal progression from man of Deity.
7. Re your second mention of blacks, it matter not what churches in the USA did 50 years ago, nor necessarily what they do today when inconsistent with the Bible, as I am not defending a church, but a faith, but you are which is why such doctrines are very relevant. If I must principally rely upon an authority that is show to be less than infallible, then I stand to be deceived with the multitudes who trust in men. I do not judge whether a doctrines is correct according to contemporary or past churches, though I certainly appreciates the abundant good fruit from overall solid Christians (Spurgeon, Wesley, Finney, Moody, Matthew Henry, etc.). from commentaries to hymns, that was wrought in churches whose creeds Joseph Smith abominated. But what I must depend upon is what Scripture most clearly evidences, which is overall contrary to the creeds and confessions of Mormonism. For further research may I suggest http://www.utlm.org/navtopicalindex.htm
8. Yes (someplace you offered) , please establish that God is married, and also that He is a polygamist, and that Jesus is Lucifer's brother, as you authoritative church taught or teaches. Thanks.
4. Contd.
And the assumption of the Aaronic priesthood by Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and that of the priesthood of Melchizedek is itself unBiblical, as aside from the bloodline issues, and the unique requirements of the Melchizedekian priesthood (Heb. 7), which is fulfilled by Christ, there simply is no separate class of priests under the New covenant other than the general priesthood of all true believers – male and female (1Pt. 2:9). No place in the New Testament did the church ordain priests[hiereus], but Bishop/Elders[episkope/presbuteros], which denote the same office, as shepherds/pastors (Titus 1:5-7; Eph. 4:11).
5. Re. the good fruits of the Mormon church, the more light that you obey from the Bible the better off, yet as similarly clean living Watchtower disciples show, clean living alone does not establish as church as true, but true doctrine, faith and love. Meanwhile, past unusual doctrines as exceedingly relevant, as they were done under the same authority that todays strange doctrines are held. The kind of revelation they need is one that brings them into line with the historic faith of the N.T. Church.
“Since you don't believe that when the Bible says "God is love"” There is nothing in my reply that says such, rather that God = spirit affirms the higher quality of being that God is, as does “God is love,” though love does not denote a class of being as spirit can. God operates in a higher way because He is not of the earth = physical = but Heavenly = spiritual. It is said also that God is light, and "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen" (1 Tim 6:16). Only God has immortality as part of His essential being, all others are dependent upon Him granting it, and no earthly man has seen or can fully see God in all His full glory.
6. Further into unchangeable states, I am well aware that Jesus changes, as was the writer of Hebrews who tells us that Jesus took upon a body, and therefore it should be obvious that it is referring to that which cannot and did not change, that of His essential being and character. What the Bible reveals of Christ is that He was from everlasting, and is properly often called God, as He shares the same eternal uncreated nature as God (Son of God = Deity), and thru Whom all things were made. His incarnation was that of taking upon a body for the purpose of the perfect and final atonement, and not to make Him God in nature, though due to His sacrifice He is made Lord (Master) in position until He has made all His enemies His footstool.
3. cotnd.
This gospel is what most every evangelical Church would agree on, though they may not all emphasize the negative parts as they should. If you want disagreements, ask about tongues or prophecy. From what I read and see, I would guesstimate that those who effectually believe as described above represent maybe approx. 12-18% of this nation (USA). But I am from the cold NE. And while some such believers exist in most every Christian denomination, they are (expectedly) found mostly in evangelical Churches that hold the Bible to be ultimate and daily authority, and thus at least preach the basic Biblical gospel message. http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/RevealingStatistics.html
And yes, as truth is exclusive by nature, and it is the message of the gospel that is most essential (Gal. 1:6-9), and those deny that faith are damned, who love sin more than Him, deception over truth (J. 3:19-21. But rather than defending a church, a saved soul does not preach his particular church as the only one church, nor does he lose his salvation if he departs from it (to fellowship with another gospel church), or disagrees in peripheral issues, but he enjoys unity with all who are born of the Spirit and walking therein, and who thus seek to defend the historic faith once delivered to the saints, not it's later inventions by “saints” now headed in Utah. And while it you may allow that God hears my prayers – and thank God He makes that graciously evident (though I need to be more like Elias) - I find it very hard for you to allow that I will be saved, as I do not and cannot fulfil the criteria necessary for Mormonic salvation if I would bd faithfuil to be Savior and His Word. And in contrast to LDS idea of salvation, Biblically there are only two eternal places that souls will end up in (Mt. 25:41; Rev. 19:7, 8; 21:9-24; cf. Eph. 5: 25-32; 1Thes. 4:17). Likewise as you hold to a gospel other than the one that beings one to be Biblically saved, or even “fully” saved” apart from Mormonism, and seem bound to defend whatever it decrees, then I must conclude that you are lost.
4. As for blacks in the LDS priesthood, I am glad you agree – now – but if the LDS still held to it then you would be here defending it! And that goes back to the original problem, that of faith in an institution that is proven to be fallible, ye requires the kind of trust that compels its missionaries to contend for doctrines that are similarly unBiblical to abandoned ones! Please do not even attempt to defend the past exclusion of blacks, as there simply is no defense for it. We are not under the Mosaic covenant, wherein God dealt with a race,.but are under the New wherein there is no distinction in that regard, as Gal, 3:29 plainly declares and Timothy's pastoral office examples.
1 contd.
In short, Rome has her pope and you have your “living prophet,” and both have their claims of infallibility. At least Rome has somewhat of a line of ecclesiastical linkage for her claims, while Joseph Smith has the extra Biblical angel Moroni (as well as a “Greek” Elijah in addition to the Hebrew one!). In any case the authenticity of the or a true church is not based upon physical or actual ecclesiastical lineage, any more than that of a true Jew is, rather in both cases it is based upon Abrahamic faith in the apostolic gospel of grace (Rm. 2:28; 3:9 – 5:1) , which neither Rome nor Mormonism propagates.
2. When I speak of God's eternal pre-existence I am speaking of the fact that He always literally existed, not in any other sense. And that is what the Scriptures most plainly declare, and to make Him the result of eternal progression requires reading into the text your external ideas.
3. I do not believe traditional Christianity, in all its varieties, is basically the one true religion, but only those who (most essentially) preach the “gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 20:24) as manifest in the scriptures. That is, that man is a volitional sinner before an infinitely holy and perfectly just almighty and eternal existing God, and is utterly destitute of any merit whereby he may gain acceptance with God nor escape his just punishment in eternal Hell fire (Eccl. 7:20; Rm. 3:9-28; Titus 3:5; Mt. 25:41, 46; Rev. 20:10-15), but, wanting Christ over sin, the sinner casts all his full faith and hope directly upon the Son sent by the Father to be “the propitiation for our sins,” and “the Savior of the word” (1Jn. 4:10, 14), that being the Jesus of the Bible, and having thus done so by the grace of God, he is washed of all his sins, sanctified by the incoming of the Holy Spirit (a person, not just a force), and is justified by imputed righteousness. And which decision is shown by baptism under wanter in identification with their new found Lord (Acts 8:36-39; 10:43-48; 15:7-9; Col. 1:14; 2:13; 2Cor. 6:11. 6:11). And having been saved by grace thru repentant faith (Rm. 4:2 – 5:1; Titus 3:5; 2Tim. 1:9), the saved soul brings forth works meet for [consistent with] repentance (Acts 26:20), and “things that accompany salvation” (Heb. 6:9), being led by the Holy Spirit in accordance with His word (Rm. 8:5,14). Such works manifests a complete faith (Ja. 1:22), and in fact justifies their faith as saving, as only a faith that overall follows Christ (as a result of salvation, not a cause) is promised to have everlasting life (Jn. 10:27-29).
Letter to Hesadanza and BWB contd.
1. Subjective feelings “must be subject to YOUR interpretation of the Bible or they will be dismissed as devilish.”
This is the type of response one would expect of a Papist, as you both support the same authority for knowing truth, that of submission to a self proclaimed ecclesiastical authority, the errors of which are far worse than whatever division exist in secondary matter among those who seek to follow the Biblical N.T. example of determining truth. "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:11).
You must correct the Holy Spirit here, for He called them noble who did not simply rely on a subjective feeling nor implicitly trust an objective human authority, but were lovers of truth and examined even the very writers of the N.T. in the light of the established word of God. It is Biblically manifest that while there will be souls that are simply contentious, yet the only sure way to bring about the true salvation of souls is to present Biblical; arguments that are shown to be sound, Scripture interpreting scripture, with self evident proven rules of hermeneutics. It was thus Paul's manner to prove things out of the scriptures (Acts 17:2; 28:23), as Christ did before the heart conviction of Lk. 24 was realized. And while every cult leader seeks to use the authority of the Bible, as J. Smith did, they fail to do as the apostles did, but must resort to specious hermeneutics, usually changing the clearest declarations of Scripture to fit their interpretations of the obscure, and then basically blame people for seeking to be like true Bereans when such cannot be convinced, and instead they ultimately must foster faith and dependence upon the leader and his organization.
A church that requires your submission to it's autocratic leadership is the overriding issue here, as they fail of the kind of Scriptural probity, purity and power that the apostles had (and who did not preach Mormonism), while they effectively seek to add to a closed canon. But LDS supposed restoration of the primitive church assumes authority that has not only preached a different God and gospel than the Bible, and unsupported fantastic tales of history, replete with “Reformed Egyptian Hieroglyphics,” but doctrines that modern day Mormonism distances itself from. If it were not for those pesky Protestants who challenge grievous errors, I believe Mormonism would not have abandoned some of their most strangest doctrines, and like Catholicism, would be preaching even more inventions.
Here's an excerpt from a speech by JFK, less than two weeks after his famous Catholicism speech:
“Tonight I speak for all Americans,” he said, “in expressing our gratitude to the Mormon people – for their pioneer spirit, their devotion to culture and learning, their example of industry and self-reliance. But I am particularly in their debt tonight for their battle to make religious liberty a living reality – for having proven to the world that people of different faiths of different views could flourish harmoniously in our midst…”
Kennedy added: “They suffered persecution and exile, at the hands of Americans whose own ancestors, ironically enough, had fled here to escape the curse of intolerance. But they never faltered in their devotion to the principle of religious liberty - not for themselves alone, but for all mankind. And in the 11th article of faith, Prophet Joseph Smith not only declared in ringing tones: ‘We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience" - he also set forth the belief that all men should be allowed "the same privilege. Let them worship how, where, or what they may.’
“And what has been true of the Mormons has been true of countless other religious faiths - Jews, Quakers, Catholics, Baptists, Unitarians, Christian Scientists, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and many, many others. All encountered resistance and oppression. All stuck by both their rights and their country. And in time the fruits of liberty were theirs to share as well; and the very diversity of their beliefs enriched our Nation's spiritual strength… Many a great nation has been torn by religious feuds and holy wars - but never the United States of America. For here diversity has led to unity - liberty has led to strength. And today that strength - that spiritual, moral strength - is needed as never before.” 
The question of blacks in the priesthood is a mute point, since if we look at any one of YOUR churches 40-50 years ago we do not see one black priest leading a congregation of whites, now do we. How do you explain that? Your kicking yourself here.
Certainly if the LDS church had had blacks in the priesthood leadership of the church during the intense times of segregation and racism in this country, the church would have had even more intense persecution than it already had. The government issued an extermination order against us, and had armies combined. The Lord did not want even more reason for the government to trample His church.
No. The racism problem was that of the United States government, and not of the Church. Indeed, Joseph Smith's platform for the U.S. presidency included the abolition of slavery, something that was well ahead of its time.
Since you don't believe that when the Bible says "God is love" and "God is a devouring fire" and "God is light" and "God is a spirit", it is talking about ONE of His qualities, and not His entire nature inclusive, we will move on to the doctrine that you think you have really nailed us on - that of eternal progression.
The Bible teaches that God is from "everlasting to everlasting," and you say that means that God has not progressed, that He has always been exactly the same for eternity, both forward and back.
When we read about the unchangeable God, we are clearly not talking about His physical state. First of all, when the Bible says that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever", do you really believe that it is literal in every sense? What about before Christ obtained His mortal body? Was He the same then as after He obtained His mortal body? What about after His resurrection? Was He the same then as when He was before when He was mortal? No. He wasn't. His physical nature changed significantly both times, although His soul still existed the same. Indeed, the Bible admits that Jesus "increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man" (Luke 2:52). That is certainly progression. After Christ's resurrection he exclaimed, "all power is given unto Me in heaven and earth" (Matt. 28:18). If the power had been "given" Him, there must have been a point in time when He did not have those particular powers.
Often, when the scriptures tell us that "God is unchangeable," it is often meant to show that His doctrines or sayings are unchangeable. He cannot tell us His gospel is correct, and then change it later. His words are set in stone.
So the scriptures actually tell us that one can be eternal, unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and forever, and still go through significant physical changes, as did Christ. As LDS, we believe that ALL have existed, at least in some form, for eternity (as intelligences). In that sense, there is a part of each of us that is eternal, that has existed for eternity backwards, and we will all exist for eternity forwards. But there will always be progression.
The enormous good fruits of the LDS church - strong families, clean lives, huge welfare program to help the poor and needy, happiness, morality and values = the FOREST.
Obscure quotes from the past, some "unusual" doctrine = a TREE.
Why does the world focus on a single tree and ignore the forest?
Luke 6:43
1. “Subjective feelings have their place and are Biblical, but they must be subject to the objective authority of the Bible”
No, they must be subject to YOUR interpretation of the Bible or they will be dismissed as devilish.
So what is the TRUE gospel of the Bible? Ask any Christian church and you will get different answers, all from the Bible.
2. Again, different interpretations. As far as we are concerned, God is God eternally. The Plan of Salvation is eternal. The gospel is eternal. Our God will always be our God. Our God has always been our God. But, you know, in all honesty, no matter what I write, it won’t be accepted here. We worship God, as you do. It seems to me that that is what is important. I accept your sincerity, as you worship a being that I believe is not accurate. I trust that even though you believe in an unembodied God, who is three beings in one, he still hears and answers your sincere prayers.
I already answered the marriage question. I could give more scriptures, if you like.
3. Don’t you believe that traditional Christianity, in all its varieties, is basically the one true religion? You must because apparently you believe the rest of us are going to hell. (Please correct me if I am wrong about this.)
I agree, I don’t know of scripture in the Bible about people with dark skins and priesthood. (Maybe Hesadanza can help here.) Some of our beliefs are not easily found in the Bible. I don’t think you practice everything in the Bible or else you'd have all components of the church that Christ organized. Parts of the original writings of the prophets of old are missing. Maybe they contained something on the subject, maybe not. It’s important to know that we do not know the reason that blacks were denied the priesthood for so long. There are theories, but that’s all. It was difficult; I personally knew an African American young man who joined the LDS church back in the 60’s. He had received a testimony (meaning he'd received a witness of the truth from the Holy Ghost), fully knowing the limits at the time. When our prophet received the revelation that all worthy male members of the church would be able to receive the priesthood, we rejoiced. I rejoiced for my friend. It was prayed for for a long time. The priesthood has been limited to different groups at times in history. We don’t understand the Lord’s timing or his reasons. Now it’s your turn to say it’s not Biblical. Does the Bible address it one way or the other? It does say all people are God’s children and we believe he loves them all equally.
All told, even if we could substantiate that God did have some sort of body after which likeness men were made, the real heretical doctrine is that of eternal progression, as no such doctrine is Biblical. Rather it depends on the same cultic doctrine that makes past as well as present errors relevant (to your elitist claim), that of subjecting the Bible to an exalted autocratic leadership, out which forsaken and current doctrines depend, from the Adam God teaching and God's multiple wives and second class blacks to the future godhood and planet populators and supremacy of Mormonism.
(Psa 118:8) "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man."
(Heb 13:8) "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."
” and in which the normal word for life is used. You have thus gone to a lot of work in order to take God [is a] spirit away, and it is hardly warranted.
You then seek to ignore a critical distinction, that of what power we are to worship God in versus what quality of being God consists of, and it is here that the absence of words in 4:24 works against you, as it is not said at all that God is IN spirit, as a man possessing such, but the best understanding is that God works as spirit because He is spirit, not flesh, which John constantly contrasts, a superior class of Divine whose His mode of operation is superior, and thus those who possess His Spirit and yield to Him can worship Him rightly, while yet being in their body. Consistent with the contrasts that runs throughout John, the women at the well has her focus on proper physical location for worship, while Jesus directs to His life giving Spirit, by which she can worship accordingly wherever she may bodily be. Praise be to God.
As for being made in God's image and likeness, we see in 1 Thes. 5:23 that man has a tri-part being, that of spirit, soul and body.
Yet I not have any particular problem with Jn. 4:24 were to be understood metaphorically, as it does not negate God as always being God rather than a result of “eternal progression, but despite you valiant efforts you are still arguing from silence. But at the end you do touch on you one verse that is part of a litany of others that Mormonism uses that purports to show that God has a physical body.
“Deut. 4:28 says that our God can see, eat and smell.” What the verse says is "And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell, " Here God is not making a comparison with Himself, who never needs rest or sleep (Ps. 121:3), and would never need food, rather He is declaring the finite character of such gods that Israel was to be delivered to in judgment, and stand in contrast to Him who does not need anything (Acts 17:25).
But if one seeks to invoke the many times that God refers to Himself as having human instrumentation, consider that according to such a hermeneutic you would have to make God a bird as well (Ps. 91:4).
“ Do you really think that those six scriptures does away with 180 years of church history, scholarship, and revelation? Do you consider 13 million people to be either ignorant of these big 6, or just plain stupid as to not believe them?
Actually, essentially in part they do, and a fair portion of your doctrinal history even you would like to forget. And yes, I do believe 13 million people are ignorant of these, just as millions more Catholics are ignorant of the Scriptures that contradict their similar man made doctrines. But I do not believe they are stupid, but that their leader are crafty.
As for your attempts to explain away the references I provided, l would like to first deal with the first one which you did not get to .
Is God really FROM (as far back as you can go) everlasting TO (as far forward as you can go to) everlasting, or does this denote something limited, which the word for “everlasting”[H5769], can sometime mean, or even just ”old” (Dt. 32:7), especially when constrained by known limits of birth or death (Ex. 21:6), If the sometime of a limited time is the case, then we can also render not only God's throne (Ps. 93:2; 100:5) to have been less than eternal, which would suit LDS well, but also His mercy and truth, etc. as well as the eternality He promises for those to turn many to righteousness. (Dan. 12:3), and multiple more like statements. Obviously the context must be considered, and in such cases it clearly denotes literally forever, and the Psalmist here goes back as far as one can go in Ps. 90:2, before the earth was even formed, and declares that His future is as eternal as His past. And it hardly needs to be added that the Bible never even intimates that God had a beginning as God. Nor is there any warrant making the existence of Christ less than eternal, and the revelation we do have as to God's existence is contrary to God being anything less than eternally pre-existent. .
As for Jn. 4:24, I am well aware of the supplied words which the KJV italicizes to let you know (to it's credit), and the necessity of such is usually very evident , but if we must remove the word “is” from Jn. 4:24, then can also do it for such versus as 2Cor. 1:18, “God [is] true”, or for one of your comparison verses, “God [is] (a) consuming fire” (Heb. 12:29), which clarifies nothing. You next want to remove the indefinite article “a” as it does not exist in Greek, but which as any Greek scholar will inform you, that letter is included when the well recognized rules of grammar demand it. One could also remove all the vowels from Hebrew while they are at it.
Having reduced the phrase to two words, you next find the only place in the entirely Bible [KJV] where pneuma[G4151] is translated “life” (out of over 384 times, almost always as spirit/spirits/ghost), and which could easily have been translated “spirit” as it is in parallel versus such as Rev. 11:11, “the Spirit of life from God entered into them
(continued)
Also, if God is a spirit and we have to worship him in spirit, do mortals have to leave our bodies to worship him?
Thus, the Latter-day Saints believe that man is also spirit (D&C 93:33-34; Num. 16:22; Rom. 8:16) and is, like God, housed in a physical body. We were, after all, created in the "image" of God (Gen. 1:26-27).
It is interesting that in 1_Cor. 2:11, Paul wrote about "the spirit of man and the Spirit of God." Elsewhere he spoke of the resurrection of the body and then noted that it is a "spiritual" body (1_Cor. 15:44-46), though, rising from the grave, it is obviously composed of flesh and bones, as Jesus made clear when he appeared to the apostles after his resurrection (Luke 24:37-39).
Paul also told the saints in Rome, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you" (Rom. 8:9).
One Commentary insists: "That God is spirit is not meant as a definition of God's being—though this is how the Stoics [a branch of Greek philosophy] would have understood it. It is a metaphor of his mode of operation, as life-giving power, and it is no more to be taken literally than 1 John 1:5, 'God is light,' or Deut. 4:24, 'Your God is a devouring fire.' It is only those who have received this power through Christ who can offer God a real worship" (J. N. Sanders, A Commentary on the Gospel According to St. John, , edited and completed by B. A. Mastin, (New York, Harper & Row, 1968), 147–148.)."
"Adopting the critics' reading of this verse leads to some strange conclusions if we are consistent. Deut. 4:28 says that our God can see, eat and smell. Can an unembodied spirit do that? Ex. 9:3 says that God is a consuming fire, 1John 1:5 says God is light, and 1John 4:4,16 says that God is love. Is He just those things? Clearly not, and the LDS conclude that neither is He just a spirit."
Whoa boy. Slow down. Do you really think you can simply blow away the "main tenets" of our faith by quickly glossing over six scriptures that have been plucked out of context from over 31,000 verses, pasted together in a sort of all-encompassing gospel mantra, and interpreted sometimes with as little as four words? Do you really think that those six scriptures does away with 180 years of church history, scholarship, and revelation? Do you consider 13 million people to be either ignorant of these big 6, or just plain stupid as to not believe them? Let's not be so quick on the trigger. Let's just take one of your arguments, that God is of spirit from John 4:24:
FAIR informs us, "Note that in the KJV...the word “is” is italicized. This is because the King James translators have inserted it on their own—it is not present in the Greek text from which the translation was made.
Secondly, the reader should be aware that the indefinite article (“a”, as in "a dog" or "a spirit") does not exist in Greek. Thus, the addition of the word "a" in English occurs at the discretion of the translators.
This leaves two Greek words: theos pneuma [θεος πνεμα]—“God spirit”. ...The word pneuma, which is translated spirit, also means ‘life’ or ‘breath’. The King James Version of Rev. 13:15 renders ‘pneuma’ as life. Thus "God is life," or "God is the breath of life" are potential alternative translations of this verse.
As for your threats, which confirm that you consider Mormonism supreme, as your principal doctrines are, so are they, but as Jesus exhorted us to cut off our hand if it causes us to sin (Mk. 9:43), it is applicable to your church, as blind leaders of the blind shall shall fall into the ditch (Mt. 15:14). And I do not mean to sound harsh, but Biblical truth is life.
I hope my response is more typical of evangelical Christians, as it was Biblical, as contrary to your desperate charges, in which you must first resort to in misrepresenting me,
1. I did not reject personal revelation, but distinctly stated “Subjective feelings have their place and are Biblical, but they must be subject to the objective authority of the Bible” You will notice, in the attempted LDS “proof text” for “burning in the bosom, that it was not that of the disciples praying over a book that led to such, but "Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" (Luke 24:32). It should be plainly obvious to you that determining truth primarily by subjective feelings easily leads to and justifies Jim Jones type followers. This is not what Jesus did, but gave them evidence, and appealed to their consciouses and minds to come to their own conclusions, and faith based upon evidence (Jn. 5:39; 14:11; 20:26-31).
, . .
2. I did tell you your beliefs are not Biblical, by providing solid scriptural backup. In my first post I established that God was God "from everlasting" (Ps. 90:2), as was Jesus Christ (Micah 5:2), and that the essential nature of God is that of spirit (Jn. 4:24) which is not that of flesh and blood, but which Jesus took upon (Lk. 24:39; Heb. 10:5). And that Jesus clearly stated that "in the resurrection [believers next life] they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven (Mt. 22:30). These refute the main tenets of your faith, and in addition I provided links to sites that provides more of such.
The escape clause in your retort is “convincing,” which is something the Pharisees also had a problem with, so please show us, as you claim “we agree with the Bible,” how the Scriptures reveal that God was NOT from everlasting as God, and in the class of “spirit,” as was Jesus before He first took upon flesh. And how in the next life believers really do marry.
3. I do assume I know what you believe, which is that the LDS church is the one true church, and while I am aware that some of what was once taught is not longer authoritative, that which once was is very relevant to your present heresies, as a church that was founded upon and taught unBiblical dogma could not be the one true church, even if they later changed it. Especially since dogma is determined by the authority of man, and not by sound Biblical proof. Please demonstrate that blacks being excluded from your priesthood was ever Biblical (and which was not abrogated due to it being acknowledged as unBiblical), or worse, the Adam-God doctrine of BY.
4. Anything the Bible does not agree with is dismissed as devil-inspired. Yes, that is the case with the “doctrines of demons,” such as makes Jesus the brother of one!
Sorry PeaceByJesus. Faith will always be subjective to feelings, the still small voice of the Holy Spirit which testifies of all truth. That is what faith is. A belief in something, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Heb. 11:1). Faith precedes the miracles. Faith precedes the evidences. Faith precedes signs and all objectivity.
"Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;
And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;
Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men" (D&C 19:13-19).
"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever" (Moroni 10:3-7).
PeaceByJesus,
Your response is so typical of Protestant/Evangelical Christians.
1. You reject personal revelation. (Calling it subjective feelings.) This is extremely sad.
2. You constantly tell us our beliefs are not Biblical, without convincing scriptural backup.
3. You assume you know what we believe. If it’s not in lds.org, please don’t assume we believe it.
4. Anything you don’t agree with is conveniently dismissed as devil-inspired.
Don’t you see, we agree with the Bible too. We study it, teach it and live by it. It contains the life and words of Christ. If there were anything in it that didn’t fit, or couldn’t be explained, we would have noticed it by now. It’s not there. We simply interpret it differently than you. So telling us that we are incorrect can be turned around and said about you. Everything cannot be solved by an appeal to the Bible. If this were so, there would be only ONE Christian religion, instead of many. This is why we need personal revelation, which you reject. This is why we need a prophet and apostles, which you also reject.
Yet the debate continues on. The same points are repeated again and again. You think you know our doctrine better than we do. I don’t know your doctrine in detail and some of what I have learned is shocking to me. But I don’t ridicule it.
I know nothing about the Quran. It’s not important to me. I don’t study other religions, because mine own is sufficient. It seems you study other religions, looking for false doctrine in an effort to shore up your own. We don’t do this. We don’t understand this. We study truth, and don’t search for lies. Life is too short. If you believe you have the truth, live it and rejoice in it. Show others you love your religion and have something wonderful to share. You don’t need to go the negative and insecure route by looking for holes in another person’s faith, so you can tear it down to make yours look better.
Please forgive the triplicate postings. Just read the top “Dear BWD” and forget the other two. I did not see all my typos (if typing got one to Heaven i would be sunk) and tried going back to repost fixed versions without realizing it was just posting again. Sorry.
Dear B W D, i am sure you are a nice person and i do not want to personally offend you, but your defense of the latter day saints relies on subjective feelings that objective truth, and which has been typical of Mormon missionaries when what they believe cannot be truly substantiated Biblically. Subjective feelings have their place and are Biblical, but they must be subject to the objective authority of the Bible, which shows that the Mormon church and most of it's doctrines are false.
In addition, while you contend that the book of Mormon's exaltation of (it's) Jesus shows it would not be inspired by the serpent, yet the Quran also exalts (it's) Jesus much, but like the book of Mormon it distorts who He truly is, because it has the same author as Mormonism. The devil loves his own deceptions, and lusts to demean God and Christ and dam souls to the lake of fire he is headed to (Mt. 25:41, 46; Rv. 20:10-15, and making God into sexually procreating man who worked His way up to godhood, and propagating a doctrine that brings mortal souls to hope for salvation by such means fits well into the devils plans. Real salvation requires abandoning hope of any means of acceptance with God, and humbly casting all our faith in the risen Lord Jesus and His sinless shed blood for forgiveness and salvation, and thus serving Him in response to His grace and goodness. May this be your faith, in the God and Jesus of the Bible.
Dear B W D, i am sure you are a nice person and i do not want to personally offend you, but your defense of the latter day saints relies on subjective feelings that objective truth, and which has been typical of Mormon missionaries when what they believe cannot be truly substantiated Biblically. Subjective feelings have their place and are Biblical, but they must be subject to the objective authority of the Bible, which shows that the Mormon church and much of it's doctrines is false.
In addition, while you contend that the book of Mormon's exaltation of (it's) Jesus shows it would not be inspired by the serpent, yet the Quran also exalts (it's) Jesus much, but like the book of Mormon it distorts who we truly is, because it has the same author as Mormonism. The devil loves his own deceptions, and lusts to demean God and Christ and dam souls to the lake of fire he is headed to (Mt. 25:41, 46; Rv. 20:10-15, and making God into sexually procreating man who worked their way up to godhood, and propagating a doctrine that brings mortal souls to hope for salvation by such means fits well into the devils plans. Real salvation requires abandoning hope of any means of acceptance with God, and humbly casting all our faith in the risen Lord Jesus and His sinless shed blood for forgiveness and salvation, and thus serving Him in response to His grace and goodness. May this be your faith, in the God and Jesus of the Bible.
Dear B W D, i am sure you are a nice person and i do not want to personally offend you, but your defense of the latter day saints relies on subjective feelings that objective truth, and which has been tyical of Mormon missioaries when whatthey beelvier cannot be truily substantiated Biblically. Subjective feelings have their place and are Biblical, but they must be subject to the objective authority of the Bible, which shows that the mormon church and much of it's doctrines is false.
In addition, while you contend that the book of Mormon's exaltation of (it's) Jesus shows it would not be inspired by the serpent, yet the Quran also mentions exalts (it's) Jesus much, but like the book of Mormon it distorts who we truly is, because it has the same author as Mormonism. The devil loveshis own deceptions, and lusts to demean God and Christ and dam souls to the lake of fire he is headed to (Mt. 25:41, 46; Rv. 20:10-15, and making God into sexually procreating man who worked their way up to godhood, and propagating a doctrine that brings mortal souls to hope for salvation by such means fits well into the devils plans. Real salvation requires abandoning hope of any means of acceptance with God, and humbly casting all our faith in the risen Lord Jesus and His sinless shed blood for forgivness and salvation, and thus servng Him in response to His grace and goodness. May this be your faith, in the God and Jesus of the Bible.
By the time the resurrection rolls around, there will be none that will be able to be sealed for time and all eternity in the marriage covenant thereafter. All those covenants must be entered into before that glorious event, which is in accord with what Christ taught.
Yes, we teach that God the Father has a wife, as all fathers do. There cannot exist a "father" without a "mother". There are early Christian sources that speak the same truths. And, yes, we are all children of God (Ps. 82:6).
Sacred writings have never been more authoritative than the words of revelation from God through a prophet. Study a little more of history, and the Bible itself, and that is clearly evident.
We also believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law (A of F 1:12). So, you can see that your worries about military backlash have no basis. Indeed, we did prepare to fight several times, to protect ourselves, as the government had armies organized several times that were to be sent to destroy us.
That is another difference between you and me, PeaceByJesus. We believe that there have been numerous others that have also been inspired down through time, both to write good books (Quran, Torah, etc.), and do good things (Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul, Muhammad, Martin Luther, etc.). The difference is, you believe that these were inspired by demons, whereas we believe they were inspired by God. We believe that if there is anything virtuous, lovely, of good report, or praiseworthy, we seek after these things (A of F 1:13). All good things come from God, and that includes the Book of Mormon. Sorry, the Book of Mormon did not come from the Bible. Just read it, and that is plainly recognizable.
You quote, "Brigham Young himself declared, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men that they may not call scripture" (J. of D., Vol. XIII, p. 95)." Yes, but the Prophet Joseph Smith also declared that a prophet is only a prophet when they are acting as one. They must be acting by the power of the spirit, and any new doctrine or changes in doctrine must be sustained by the priesthood and general membership of the church.
Yes, we teach that God the Father is corporeal, with an exalted, perfected, and ever glorified body of flesh and bone, just as the Son has today. God has a spirit, just as we do, but is not the end of His nature. The Neoplatonic Trinitarian view of God that was introduced by the Nicene Creed is nowhere to be found in the New Testament (Harper's Bible Dictionary, Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099). Yet you continue to teach and preach that God. Well, we won't do it. We believe that it is self-evident from the scriptures that the nature of the Godhead is that God the Father, his Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, are three separate and distinct persons, but all with the same purpose and mission. And the doctrine of theosis, or deification, whereby man can become like God, was readily taught and believed in the early Christian church, until it was generally lost and corrupted.
PeaceByJesus, (Continued)
There is a long history to what happened in Utah, concerning the US army. In essence, the saints had been driven out of their homes to perish time and time again. They had walked away from their beautiful city of Nauvoo that they’d built on former swampland, leaving homes intact, for strangers to move in at no cost. They left their temple that had been built at extreme sacrifice, to be desecrated by outlaws. They left the country that rejected them (remember the extermination order from the state of Missouri?). Because of the rumors and lies that drifted back east, the government sent out an army to settle a problem that did not exist. The saints were not going to be driven out again and were prepared to burn down their homes rather than give them away again.
For you to imply that the leadership of the LDS church might order its members to take up arms against our government or anyone else for that matter, or would influence an LDS president in that way, is so utterly ridiculous that I can hardly imagine anyone with any sense at all even imaging it. Name one church that has shown more patriotism. We firmly believe in “obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law”. (12th Article of Faith)
PeaceByJesus,
Whenever the origin of the Book of Mormon cannot be explained, it’s too easy to say Satan did it, or in this case, demons. But for Satan to testify of Christ repeatedly is completely out of character and just illogical. Many people reading it to find errors, end up becoming converted. Some people read it and remain hardcore critical. There are many critics of the Bible as well. The Book of Mormon has been scrutinized countless times by the learned as well as unlearned, with varying opinions, yet millions are convinced it is true, and it still stands. Regardless of the DNA and archeological debates, both of which have reasonable explanations, it still stands. I wish it was easier to prove through science alone, but we are to accept it on faith, or not accept it at all.
Satan is brilliantly deceptive and he could diguise his work with the appearance of holiness. We see evidence of that all around us. But he cannot counterfeit the spirit of God. He cannot communicate the feeling of inner peace and light that can only come through the Holy Ghost. That is why you must take your questions to God and let Him help you sort it out. I cannot understand why Protestants/Evangelicals are so resistant to this.
God is eternal. We all are eternal. But to really understand eternity is beyond any of us. How do we explain something that has no beginning and no end? Because you combine the Father, Son and Holy Ghost into one being, it’s easy to confuse the nature of one with the others. The Holy Ghost does not have a body. He is the spirit that you call God. The Father and Son both have bodies and there is supportive biblical scripture to that fact. (One example: Luke 24: 36-43)
Eternal marriage is an earthly ordinance, as is baptism. Without the proper authority, all marriages indeed end at death. “Till death do us part”. Hence their fate is to be single in heaven. However “neither is the man without the woman, neither is the woman without the man, in the Lord.” (1 Cor. 11:11) When married by the proper authority, by someone ordained with the power to act in behalf of God, marriage can be eternal. (Even if you don’t belief this, don’t you wish this were true?)
A similar challenge and claims of Divine authorship are made for the Quran: "And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto" (Sura 2:23), and the BOM is it. Neither are inspired by God, but by demons, who know where the power is. A good counterfeit must be substantially like the original; and in this the BOM (book or mormon) is a better one than the Quran, but it, as well as the further teachings of Mormonism which flowed from it, are readily recognizable as a counterfeit by examination of the original.
Brigham Young himself declared, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men that they may not call scripture" (J. of D., Vol. XIII, p. 95).
Whereas the Bible indisputably states that God was God "from everlasting" (Ps. 90:2), as was Jesus Christ (Micah 5:2), and that the essential nature of God is that of spirit (Jn. 4:24) which is not that of flesh and blood, but which Jesus took upon (Lk. 24:39; Heb. 10:5), yet Mormonism teaches that God was once a man who latter became God (D. & C. 130:22; (A. of F., p. 430)! And, like unto the serpent hissed to Eve, that they can also become gods as faithful Mormons (Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-22).
In addition, And while the God of the Bible is not married, and Jesus clearly stated that "in the resurrection they [believers] neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven (Mt. 22:30), Mormonism taught that God had a wife(s), who physically begat Jesus, and is begetting "spirit children," and that they can as well. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, pp. 158-159, 172; Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48; Moses 4:2-4; Abraham 3:27–28). But which originally required they be polygamists (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 269, August 19, 1866).
They even taught the Mormon version of Rome's Queen of Heaven," as the old Mormon hymn declares "O My Father." The third verse declares, "In the heav'ns are parents single? No; the tho't makes reason stare! Truth is reason, Truth eternal, Tells me I've a Mother there" (G.T.A., pp. 99-100; cf. The Seer, pp. 158-159).
And, like as in Catholicism, as the ultimate authority in Mormonism is not the Bible but the church (it's leadership), there is no assurance that they must not take up arms, as they once did by the thousands (preparing to fight against the US army), in relying on the arm of the flesh to defend the church, unlike the Biblical one.
Here is Romney's speech, if you would like to read it:
http://www.mittromney.com/News/Speeches/Faith_In_America
Here is a good story:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-newvoices0507dec05,0,804997.story
Hokey, Please, we need scripture, not websites and cartoons. I don't even bother going to your sites, but I do look up the scriptures.
Lol... yes, cartoons are always more truthful than the words of a prophet of God. Why didn't I think of that?
Cartoon banned by the Mormon church
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo
Servent & Hokey, No matter what you come up with, we'll have an answer. Truth always prevails.
Servent,
“Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
So Jesus lied when he said this? that is what you are saying. And then 1800 years after Jesus said this a little 14 yr old. boy was revealed the truth (in what mormons believe to be the second coming of Christ). So you are saying you believe js over Jesus? You are not a Christian you are a smithian “
Look at verse 17 in Matthew 16. What does it say? “. . . for flesh and blood hath not revelaled it unto thee, but my Father which is Heaven.” He is refering to revelation. Communication from God. Then in verse 16, he addresses Peter, and refers to a rock. Maybe, just maybe, he was still talking about revelation. Maybe revelation is this rock.
No, Servent, Mormons do not believe this was the 2nd coming. (Where do you get these ideas?) Joseph Smith’s vision was another example of revelation . . . or another example of the “rock”, as mentioned in Matthew. And though the gates of hell try, they do not prevail.
Btw, verse 17 also says that while Christ was on earth, his Father was in heaven. Two different beings in two different places. We believe the Bible. We believe Jesus.
Servent, If it’s so easy, why has no one else been able to do it?
BTW your arguments are laughable.
Actually, the most recent scholarly work of the historical documents and journals indicates that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon in about 65 days.
Please, anyone, please produce a book such as the Book of Mormon, over 500 pages, in 65 days. Oh, and make sure you don't ever go back and make major edits or reorganize it in any way. Produce it directly as a stream of thought. When you take breaks, don't go back and reread what you put down before hand, pick it right back up where you left off.
Copyrighting things can be as simple as putting a copyright mark on it. It is not hard.
Oh, yea, I'm sure the devil would have testified of the divinity of the Savior, Jesus Christ. Mosiah 3:8 - "And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary."
"To date no student has carried out this assignment, which, of course, was not meant seriously. But why not? If anybody could write the Book of Mormon, as we have been so often assured, it is high time that somebody, some devoted and learned minister of the gospel, let us say, performed the invaluable public service of showing the world that it can be done."
I just wonder if the devil himself appeard to js like he did with eve. with his help, this little assignment would be nothing.
Hugh Nibley once gave the following challenge - "Since Joseph Smith was younger than most of you and not nearly so experienced or well-educated as any of you at the time he copyrighted the Book of Mormon
how would such a dumb, young, un-educated, un-expierenced kid know how to copyright material?
bwbWed Dec 05, 2007 11:19 am : 0 : 0 Flag
Servent,
“big deal, anyone can write a book and throw in Jesus and God and call it "holy scripture".
Can they write it:
with only four years of formal schooling, Remember schooling back then is MUCH more than it is today.
at a young age, 14 was practically a man back then
with practically no exposure to the world outside of rural New York state, They were raised by the one and only true word of God, the Bible
in the early 1800’s, Bible was written in 1st and 2nd century and thousands of years before. Not impressing me much......
producing over 500 pages, Copying is easy
of 1000 years of history that cannot contain any mistakes However it does contain MANY mistakes. Been proven through DNA over and over and over
because scholars will study it for centuries, ANd have ripped it to shreads
including many looking for errors, And have found countless numbers of them
in varying styles to account for the many different contributing authors of old, Anyone can copy a style. I.E. the Bible
and include chiasmus, (look it up) a form of writing found in the Bible Again anyone can copy a style
And do it in less than 90 days? Says who? how do you know he did it in that amount of time? B/c he said so. He also had many many affairs, arrested, many people knew he was a liar. Go ahead and trust your eternity on a liar!
Hugh Nibley once gave the following challenge - "Since Joseph Smith was younger than most of you and not nearly so experienced or well-educated as any of you at the time he copyrighted the Book of Mormon, it should not be too much to ask you to hand in by the end of the semester (which will give you more time than he had) a paper of, say, five to six hundred pages in length. Call it a sacred book if you will, and give it the form of a history. Tell of a community of wandering Jews in ancient times; have all sorts of characters in your story, and involve them in all sorts of public and private vicissitudes; give them names--hundreds of them--pretending that they are real Hebrew and Egyptian names of circa 600 b.c.; be lavish with cultural and technical details--manners and customs, arts and industries, political and religious institutions, rites, and traditions, include long and complicated military and economic histories; have your narrative cover a thousand years without any large gaps; keep a number of interrelated local histories going at once; feel free to introduce religious controversy and philosophical discussion, but always in a plausible setting; observe the appropriate literary conventions and explain the derivation and transmission of your varied historical materials.
"Above all, do not ever contradict yourself! For now we come to the really hard part of this little assignment. You and I know that you are making this all up--we have our little joke--but just the same you are going to be required to have your paper published when you finish it, not as fiction or romance, but as a true history! After you have handed it in you may make no changes in it (in this class we always use the first edition of the Book of Mormon); what is more, you are to invite any and all scholars to read and criticize your work freely, explaining to them that it is a sacred book on a par with the Bible. If they seem over-skeptical, you might tell them that you translated the book from original records by the aid of the Urim and Thummim--they will love that! Further to allay their misgivings, you might tell them that the original manuscript was on golden plates, and that you got the plates from an angel. Now go to work and good luck!
"To date no student has carried out this assignment, which, of course, was not meant seriously. But why not? If anybody could write the Book of Mormon, as we have been so often assured, it is high time that somebody, some devoted and learned minister of the gospel, let us say, performed the invaluable public service of showing the world that it can be done."
Servent,
“big deal, anyone can write a book and throw in Jesus and God and call it "holy scripture".
Can they write it:
with only four years of formal schooling,
at a young age,
with practically no exposure to the world outside of rural New York state,
in the early 1800’s,
producing over 500 pages,
of 1000 years of history that cannot contain any mistakes
because scholars will study it for centuries,
including many looking for errors,
in varying styles to account for the many different contributing authors of old,
and include chiasmus, (look it up) a form of writing found in the Bible
And do it in less than 90 days?
Go ahead and try.
Yea. Even the devils believe, and tremble (James 2:19).
My post was flagged as inappropriate? I never even swear, much less say anything inappropriate. Wow. Guess I hit a nerve.
"And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center" (1 Nephi 16:2).
Lol... you can flag my posts as "inappropriate" all day too if you like. The Church is still true.
Hesadanza,
Do you think there’s any getting through to them? I am beginning to see that they really don’t understand personal revelation. They don’t understand the experience of the Holy Ghost bearing witness of the truth. You and I have experienced it and understand the concept of a testimony, but they just don’t seem to get it. All the arguments in the world don’t change the fact that once you know truth, it’s undeniable. They think this is from the devil. I sit here in utter disbelief at the very idea.
Last night I sat next to my father-in-law’s bed as he passed away. He had been in the hospital several days and we knew his death was near, but instead of sadness, I felt an overwhelming sense of joy and gratitude for the knowledge and comfort of the gospel. I know where he is now and I know we will be with him again. This isn’t just a vague hope, but a firm inner, comforting knowledge. There is absolutely no fear of what will become of him. I cannot tell you the joy this brings to me.
No matter what we say, they continue on, repeating the same quotes and accusations. It’s amazing. Hopefully other readers will get something positive out of this.
No, I am not kidding when I say that we proclaim that God is not incorporeal!
Christ ordained Peter with the keys and authority of His priesthood, as well as the rest of His apostles. That is the rock upon which Christ built His church. The authority of the priesthood. If you believe that Christ built His church upon the person Peter, then you would be Catholic, for that is what the Catholics believe, that the Pope is the authoritative descendant from Peter.
We believe that there exist gods many, and lords many, but to us there is but one God that we worship, and that is our Eternal Father in Heaven, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost (1 Cor. 8:5-6).
I quote from the Bible because we believe in the Bible. It is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.
The Book of Mormon not only speaks of Christ, it testifies of Him, teaches of His gospel and atonement, His sacrifice, His miracles, His commandments. It teaches us His word, His love, His mercy, His tenderness, His justice. That's a whole lot more than just putting words in a book.
Satan's goal and plan in heaven was to take away man's agency and to take the glory of God unto himself (Isaiah 14:13-14). After Satan was cast out of heaven, his main objective and goal became to attempt to thwart God's plan, and make man miserable like unto himself. He does not want anyone to partake of God's glory because he lost it completely, forever. He therefore tempts us to sin and move ourselves further and further from our God we love so that we too may become miserable, forever. God's plan is that we follow Him, so that we might have eternal joy.
You don't need to be perfect to obtain forgiveness; just striving for that goal.
(Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer Kimball’ Ch. 12, pp. 163-165)
An army officer called a soldier to him and ordered him to take a message to another officer. The soldier saluted and said, ‘I’ll try, sir! I’ll try!” to this the officer responded:’ I don’t want you to try, I want you to deliver this message.’ The soldier, somewhat embarrassed, now replied: ‘I’ll do the best I can, sir.’ At this the officer, now disgusted, rejoined with some vigor: ‘I don’t want you to try and I don’t want you to ‘do the best you can.’ I want you to deliver this message.’ Now the young soldier, straightening to his full height, approached the matter magnificently, as he thought, when he saluted again and said: ‘I’ll do it or die, sir.’ To this the now irate officer responded: ‘I don’t want you to die, and I don’t want you to merely do the best you can do, and I don’t want you to try. Now, the request is a reasonable one; the message is important; the distance is not far; you are able-bodied; you can do what you have been ordered. Now get out of here and accomplish your mission.’ It is normal for children to try. They fall and get up numerous times before they can be certain of their footing. But adults who have gone through these learning periods must determine what they will do, then proceed to do it. To ’try’ is weak. To ‘do the best Ican’ is not strong. We must always do better than we can…”
the only miracle is that you have to be perfect. but what's ironic about that belief, is to obtain forgivenes you must be perfect, but you don't need it when your perfect.
again a flawed man made belief. all it comes down to is putting yourself in the equation of salvation!!
HesadanzaTue Dec 04, 2007 7:21 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
"Satan's plan in the pre-mortal life was for us all to be required to be absolutely perfect in this MORTAL life, and therefore we would all be saved. Not one would be lost. We would all be denied our agency, one of the greatest gifts of God, in order for this to happen. There would be no sin because Satan would not allow it to even happen, whatsoever. Kind of a communist ideology. In other words, no need for a Savior. It was an utterly gross and evil plan."
This goes against everything God has taught us. God does not want us to sin, not Satan. Afterall, it was satan in the garden of Eden that tempted Eve. Satan is the one today who is tempting man with sin. God does not want us to sin. He want's us to be Holy!! Christians look and see how important Satan is to there whole theology. He didn't want man to sin, hesadanza said that Satan would not allow it to even happen. the lds church is full of Satan's handy work, and this theology just goes to show you how Satan has slipped his importance into their beliefs.
HesadanzaTue Dec 04, 2007 6:14 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
"If you had read the Book of Mormon, you would have clearly seen that it is another testament of Jesus Christ. It contains a name or title of Christ every 1.7 verses."
big deal, anyone can write a book and throw in Jesus and God and call it "holy scripture". Wait, that's exactly what happened. Someone could use that argument with the Bible. Wrong, the Bible was written over the course of thousands of years by countless number of people, in numerous places, writing a piece. Big difference to some jo somebody writing his version all in one place, in one time period, by one person.
HesadanzaTue Dec 04, 2007 6:19 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
"Because I am still mortal. The flesh is weak. We all fall short (Rom. 3:23). That is why we have a Savior. We cannot become perfect in this life, but we will have that opportunity in the next. We strive to do "all we can do." I strive every day to do better. Do you? "
it seems to me that you quote the Bible when it is convient for you. You have said before that you do not believe in the innerancy of God's Holy Word (his only Holy Scripture the Bible). So why do you quote it?
HesadanzaTue Dec 04, 2007 3:12 pm : 1 : 0 Flag
"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. "
and when people die they become god's too. So many, many, many, millions of gods you belive in.
HesadanzaTue Dec 04, 2007 2:20 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
"I'm not promoting Mormonism. I'm defending it from those who would defame the Lord's work.
We do not claim to follow "traditional Christian orthodoxy". You are right. If your charge is that we do not believe in "traditional Christian orthodoxy", then you are right. We have never claimed to be traditional Christians, as the world views it. But we are Christians. That's because we believe the Church of Jesus Christ was corrupted after Christ's ascension. It lost the authority of the priesthood, and consequently revelation too. "
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
So Jesus lied when he said this? that is what you are saying. And then 1800 years after Jesus said this a little 14 yr old. boy was revealed the truth (in what mormons believe to be the second coming of Christ). So you are saying you believe js over Jesus? You are not a Christian you are a smithian
Hesadanza...
you're not serious when you say "God resides near a place called Kolob, yes. Just like you reside on planet earth, God must reside somewhere. We reject the false doctrine that God is incorporeal." are you?
btw, I'm not attacking. If an object walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, guess what? It's a duck. Be careful there are many wolves in sheep's clothing. Satan walketh about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. at last count 13 million from the lds church.
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
You're welcome. But we still only worship one God.
Thank you, here is the truth for all Christians to see, Mormons believe in many gods.
One of our hymns states, "Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity, Find out the generation where Gods began to be? ... Or view the last creation, where Gods and matter end?"
If God is our Father, then yes, He has a father too. But there is only ONE God with whom we have to do, and whom we worship. 1 Cor. 8:5-6 states:
"5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
You don't understand the question? Did Heavenly Father from Kolob have a father?
What?
Was he the every first god?
God resides near a place called Kolob, yes. Just like you reside on planet earth, God must reside somewhere. We reject the false doctrine that God is incorporeal.
From the planet Kolob?
That would be God, the Eternal Father, his beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.
Would that be the god from the planet Kolob?
No. My motivation is to defend the Lord's work, and His gospel.
Would you buy a used car from Joseph Smith?
http://www.josephlied.com/
So your motivation is to deceive Christians into believing Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God?
http://www.josephlied.com/
I'm not promoting Mormonism. I'm defending it from those who would defame the Lord's work.
We do not claim to follow "traditional Christian orthodoxy". You are right. If your charge is that we do not believe in "traditional Christian orthodoxy", then you are right. We have never claimed to be traditional Christians, as the world views it. But we are Christians. That's because we believe the Church of Jesus Christ was corrupted after Christ's ascension. It lost the authority of the priesthood, and consequently revelation too. Therefore, it could not interpret the scriptures correctly, because it was man versus man. Many changes were introduced to the church and the gospel. We believe that Christ's church was restored in 1830, by God, through a modern-day prophet.
So, yes. We are not your "traditional" Christians. But we do claim to be Christian, the definition of the word being that we believe in Jesus Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of mankind, the Son of God, and in His gospel teachings.
Hesadanza,
How about every one of your posts. What is your motivation for coming on to a Christian website and promoting Mormonism? Could it be to deceive Christian into believing the lies of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young?
Could you elaborate?
Then Hesadanza you are a liar!
Saying someone a liar is not being contentious if that person did, in fact, lie. I could list all the scriptures in which prophets called men liars, but I won't.
Hesadanza,
You just called servent a liar, that is not being contentious?
Lol... nope. I'm just stating the truth.
But thanks for quoting from the Book of Mormon. You should do it more often.
Hesadanza are you getting a little contentious. 3 Nephi 11:29 "... he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil..."
You are a liar, servent. See 2 Nephi 9:34. The First Vision of Joseph Smith was not the Second Coming.
servent, good question. Any more?
here is a better question. how could these plates give the "other scriptures of Jesus" if it was 600 BeforeCChrist that suppposdly these Jewish people came to the Americas? Oh yes that's right b/c Jesus supposdly appeared (the 2nd coming according to mormons) to joseph smith.
You know, anti-Mormons make it pretty easy to stay on top of defending the Lord's work because they repeat the same arguments over and over again, ad infinitum. All we have to do is refer them to the mountain of LDS scholarly work that has already addressed those issues. Of course, for anti-Mormons, this scholarly work does not exist:
DNA and the Book of Mormon: http://fairlds.org/apol/ai195.html
Reformed Egyptian: http://fairlds.org/apol/ai091.html
http://www.lhvm.org/dna.htm
This leads to a video titled "DNA vs the Book of Mormon". I would strongly recommend that any one who claims to be Christian, watch this video. In reading the Bible it is very evident that the Jews are God’s chosen people. After the time of Christ, about 70 AD, most Jews were driven out of their promised land and dispersed around the known world. Close to sixty years ago Israel became a nation after 1900 years of not being in the land of their fore fathers. People alive today have seen God's hand on these people. They have been the victims of hatred around the world. Yet as a people they have held on to their religion, many times at the cost of their lives. Today the Jews go around the world to find other Jews and bring them back to Israel, their promised land. These people they find have held on to their religious traditions for those 1900 years. Now through DNA testing these people can prove their Jewish heritage beyond a shadow of a doubt, the same type of evidence we use in a court of law. People are proven innocent or guilty based on DNA evidence alone.
Now, this brings us back to the issue of Native Americans having Jewish ancestors. As mentioned above, Jewish people have held on to their religious beliefs long after being driven from the land of Israel. The Book of Mormon claims to be the story of Jews, Jaredites, Lamanites, and Nephites, who at different periods, came across the ocean from the Middle East in ships, traveling thousands of miles and landing in the Americas.
The Quotes below come from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaredites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamanites
“The Jaredites grew to a civilization that exceeded two million people just prior to its destruction.[3] They finally destroyed themselves about the time Lehi and the other refugees from Jerusalem arrived in America”
“According to The Book of Mormon, the family of Lehi (a wealthy Hebrew merchant and prophet), the family of Ishmael, and Zoram traveled from the Middle East circa 600 BC to the Americas by boat. Some time after the death of Lehi (in the Americas), Nephi (Lehi's fourth son) overheard that his brothers were plotting to kill him, so he (Nephi) and his followers left and went into the wilderness. The followers of Nephi called themselves Nephites, though made up of several groups, such as the Jospehites, Jacobites, and Zoramites. The followers of Laman (Lehi's oldest son) were called Lamanites, though made up of Ishmaelites, Lemuelites, and various other groups of Nephites.[1]”
“The Lamanites became a larger portion of the population until, some time after AD 400, the Nephite people were destroyed in a series of large wars with the Lamanites.[5]”
From the Book of Mormon we find that these Jewish immigrates numbered in the millions. The Book of Mormon claims that the Lamanites are “among the ancestors of the American Indians.” So this raises some major questions.
1. If the American Indians have Jewish ancestry, why haven’t they returned to Israel just like the other Jews who have been spread around the world?
2. How come modern day Jews from Israel haven’t tried to prove the Jewish heritage of the American Indians and brought them back to their promised land?
3. Every where else around the world the dispersed Jews have held on to their religion as well as traditions from their Hebrew heritage. Where is this evidence among the American Indians?
The questions could go on and on and on, but the question that intrigues me most is this:
WHY WOULD ANY JEW WRITE HIS HOLY SCRIPTURE IN REFORMED EGYPTIAN ON GOLDEN PLATES? WOULD HE NOT HAVE WRITEN IN HEBREW?
servent - no you don't speak truth. You may take quotes out-of-context from 150 years ago all day long. Even if the quotes are correct, it is slander in the way you interpret and manipulate them. It is a word game to you. They are not understood in the context of the day, the time, the person speaking, the entire discourse, their circumstances, who transcribed them, possible errors in transcription, and the spirit with which they spoke. In other words, you make us "offender(s) for a word" (Isaiah 29:21). (By the way, that whole chapter is prophecy about the restoration of the gospel, the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and the opposition the Lord's work would face in the last days).
If I were not a member of the LDS Church, and if I were trying to find which church was the Lord's church, I would try to find a church that is built the way that Christ built it when he was on the earth. That is with prophets, apostles, pastors, evangelists, teachers, priests, bishops, and deacons (Eph. 2:20, 3:5, 4:11; Luke 11:49; 1 Cor. 12:28; Philip 1:1; 1 Tim. 3). All of which are offices in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints today.
I don't know how many times I have to say it before you will believe me, servent. Jesus Christ is God. He is the great Jehovah who was "made flesh" (John 1:14). He is the great "I am." He is the Savior and Redeemer of the world. He is the Son of God. He is our Advocate with the Father. He is the King of kings, and Lord of lords. How many times do I have to say it, servent? How many? It appears you haven't heard me the first 10 times.
Isaiah 9:6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Do you believe this Prophecy came true? Do you believe this Prophecy is about Jesus? Then how can you say Jesus is not God?
bwb,
your quote "Part of being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is having a testimony of the truth.
The Holy Ghost has told me this religion is true. I’ve tested it by living it and it works! The LDS church has brought endless blessing into my life. Should I throw this away because of some website? "
muslims also live their faith and kill innocent people (infidels). does that mean they are right?
the Jewish people live their faith, and I might be so bold to say more devoutly than most of us. does that mean they are right?
so do buddists, hindu, etc. etc. etc. just b/c you live it and it works for YOU does NOT mean it is TRUE!!!
hesadanza,
" It is His witness, and no manner of slander can deny the witness we have. "
we are not slandering. We speak truth, give direct quotes from your False Apostles and Prophets. If you say they are slander then maybe you need to look at your so called "Apostles" and "Prophets". Maybe your taking offence is the Holy Spirit conviciting you that you are being lied to by the Devil Himself.
Plain and Simple your Doctorine is not of Christ, Your Jesus is not our Jesus. Your "Apostles" and "Prophets" are False. There are so many fallacies with your religion that we could keep REPEATING them but why waste more of our time when you have obvisouly been listening to the Devil.
By the way, Jesus Christ is the Ultimate Supreme and Final Judge. But there are others that will participate in the judgment process.
Revelations 20:4-6
1 Corinthians 6:2-3
Daniel 7:22
Mormon 3:18-19
D&C 20:13
D&C 29:12
D&C 64:37
The church is still true. See, we have a testimony of the truth that is born of the spirit of God. It is His witness, and no manner of slander can deny the witness we have. Nothing you can say can make the church not true. God has testified of the truth to us, and we believe God before man.
Brigham Young quote:
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith... every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim--'Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!' But it is true." - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
John 7:17 - "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."
I too have tested it by living it. I have practiced the doctrine, and I know it is of God and not of man.
Hokey, you need to understand that you can dig up quotes all day long “exposing” something that someone said. It doesn’t matter. Repeat, it doesn’t’ matter. Was I clear enough? IT DOES NOT MATTER. Believe me, we’ve heard it all. You cannot be LDS and escape the harrassment.
Part of being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is having a testimony of the truth.
The Holy Ghost has told me this religion is true. I’ve tested it by living it and it works! The LDS church has brought endless blessing into my life. Should I throw this away because of some website?
We have a prophet today and his council to us is for today. When Brigham Young was alive, this was all brand new to them. EVERYONE was a very recent convert. The Lord let the stumbles happen, but the basic doctrine was there. We don’t have to ONLY rely on what a prophet said 150 years ago, because we have a prophet today. Has HE said anything that offends you?
But most of all, we have the Holy Ghost who testifies of truth. We will follow that, and not you.
Tearing down another religion is not Christlike and has to be cankering your spirit. For goodness sakes, go live your beliefs.
Sorry. The trinitarian all-in-one view is not found anywhere in the Bible. Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament]" (Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099; emphasis added.).
I've got to get some work done today. But you can continue on your rant, and I can address more of your defamations later.
Hesadanza
I am leaving now, I just wanted to thank you for exposing the lies of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young so that many Christians can read it here on the internet
Paragraph 460 of the Roman Catholic catechism reads:
"The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature": "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." 'The only begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.'"
Sorry, this is not in the KJV or JST. This proves nothing.
Most Christians don't even know about " the so-called trinitarian all-in-one view that was invented in the 3rd and 4th centuries A.D." Christians read the Bible, that is where the understanding of the Trinity comes from.
No. But he was a prophet of God. He didn't "need" to know those languages to reveal the will of God.
Did Joseph Smith know Hebrew, Greek, or Arabic (the languages the Bible was originally written in) at the time he "TRANSLATED" the Bible. HE DID NOT.
Hokey - the Godhead consists of God the Father, his Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. That is our first article of faith. It is not the so-called trinitarian all-in-one view that was invented in the 3rd and 4th centuries A.D.
Those that are faithful to the commandments of God have the chance of becoming like Him. That is what the early Christians believed. That is what is taught in the Bible. In fact, that is what current Catholic belief is too.
Paragraph 460 of the Roman Catholic catechism reads:
"The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature": "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." 'The only begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.'"
Yes, the JST is used today. Many of the JST translation verses are included right in the back of our printing of the King James Version of the Bible, including Genesis 50:24-38.
It's interesting to note that some of Joseph Smith's translations of Bible verses have been found to be more closely worded to the original of Bible verses that have been just recently found in much older manuscripts of the Bible that have been discovered since the the KJV of the Bible was translated (such as the Dead Sea Scrolls).
"Whenever the term God is used in the scriptures, it usually refers to the Godhead, which includes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. There is no other God."
Actually whenever the term God is used in the scriptures, it usually refers to Elohim.
Hesadanza, your above quote makes you sound like a trinitarian. Do you believe in the Trinity or are you going to become god yourself?
Hesadanza
"Modern living prophets and apostles will also reveal the true interpretation of scripture, including the Bible."
Joseph Smith the first of the modern prophets retranslated the Bible; the Joseph Smith Translation (JST). His "translation" included a prophecy about himself that he inserted into the book of Genesis. Is the JST even used by MOST LDS today
Sorry. Elohim and Jehovah are not the same. Jehovah speaks on behalf of his Father. It is called divine investiture of authority, whereby the Son speaks for the Father. All revelation to man from God the Father has come through his beloved Son, Jesus Christ (Jehovah). Christ is our advocate with the Father. We know of very few instances in which the Father has spoken directly to man.
Whenever the term God is used in the scriptures, it usually refers to the Godhead, which includes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. There is no other God.
We believe in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Yes, we regard the Bible as one of our holy scriptures. It is the word of God.
The list of contradictions shows that sometimes prophets are fallible too, just like the rest of us. Or, perhaps, we do not have a full understanding of what they meant in the context of the history and culture. One thing might be one way in one context, and the opposite in a different context. The spirit will testify of what is true. Modern living prophets and apostles will also reveal the true interpretation of scripture, including the Bible.
Hesadanza,
"Contradictions in the Bible? Well, here is one list:"
So not you are going to attack the Bible, I thought that the LDS regard this as one of their holy scriptures.
The LDS teach that Elohim is Heavenly Father and Jehovah is Heavenly Father's son or Jesus Christ. The following verses show that Elohim and Jevovah are the same.
1 Kings 8:60 (King James Version)
60That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD [Jehovah] is God [Elohim], and that there is none else
Thus Jesus is God.
Deuteronomy 4:35(King James Version)
35Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim]; there is none else beside him.
Thus Jesus is God
Deuteronomy 4:39 (King James Version)
39Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim] in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
Thus Jesus is God
Isaiah 44:6 (King James Version)
6Thus saith the LORD [Jehovah] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [Jehovah] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God [Elohim].
No God beside Jesus.
Isaiah 45:5 (King James Version)
5I am the LORD [Jehovah], and there is none else, there is no God [Elohim] beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Jesus none else, no God beside Jesus.
Psalm 100:3 (King James Version)
3Know ye that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim]: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Again Jesus is God.
Jehovah is Elohim.
Contradictions in the Bible? Well, here is one list:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
Does that make the Bible false? No. Does that make those prophets false? No. It is all about context. It is about misunderstanding. Sometimes prophets make errors too. Again, prophets are not perfect. Prophets are mortal, human, individuals. God never gave prophets to be perfect people. Whoever thinks that prophets are perfect and infallible denies the innocence and perfection of the only person who was truly perfect in his life upon this earth, the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Hesadanza,
where are there contradictions in the Bible?
And what your saying is that God doesn't give his word perfectly when speaking through a Prophet. You are wrong DEAD wrong. If a Prophet tells one false prophecy then they are a FALSE PROPHET. Which Jesus warned us about. The LDS church as been full of FALSE PROPHETS!!
Hesadanza,
actually there are anti-catholics, they are Ex-Catholics For Christ
http://www.excatholicsforchrist.com
"How do we know that Jesus is not the spirit brother of Satan?" B/c Jesus was not created, Jesus is God in the flesh. Satan was a CREATED ANGEL. The difference is that you do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh. You do not believe in the triune Godhead. Therefore you believe Jesus was CREATED just like Satan. Jesus was not created Jesus is God.
Jesus affirmed his divinity in John 8:58 (among many other places) in this verse "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
if you know any of the OT then you know God called himself "I AM" to Moses. Exodus 3:13-15 "13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."
How can you continue to refute Jesus' Diety?
Mark Champneys' testimony.
video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vWHYOGHbXCM
written:
http://www.mormoninfo.org/news-info/testimonies/mark-champneys
Mark made a study of the book of Romans while attending BYU. The gospel message is Romans lead him out of Mormonism and into a personal relationship with the Jesus Christ of the Bible
By the way, Romney is going to give his "Mormon Speech" this week on Thursday:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i3rGlyYydDABDfjCwNHaECW-5WDgD8T9JVB00
Here are the testimonies of Jerald and Sandra Tanner;
http://www.utlm.org/testimony/chworldtestimony.htm
No mountain of anti-mormon propaganda that you hurl will make the church untrue. LDS scholars have dealt with this material countless times and found it wanting. See www.fairlds.org.
The Lord's church will continue to grow and the Lord will continue His work until the Father says the work is done. You won't be able to stop it, because it is of God. No unhallowed hand will stop the work from progressing.
DNA findings trigger revision
By Electa Draper
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 12/03/2007 01:42:17 AM MST
http://www.denverpost.com/extremes/ci_7619802
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stared down a growing mountain of scientific evidence, and church leaders blinked.
They have made a one-word change to the introduction to the Book of Mormon, a passage that called a lost tribe of Israel the principal ancestors of American Indians.
It now says the Israelites are among the ancestors of American Indians.
Observers are buzzing about the church's apparent accommodation of extensive DNA evidence that American Indians descended from Asian peoples.
"It is a recognition that there is some controversy about the claim that Indians are descendants of the Book of Mormon peoples," said Mormon scholar Jan Shipps, a professor of religion and American history at Indiana University-Purdue University at Indianapolis.
The LDS, better known as Mormons, believe the Book of Mormon, as revealed by church founder Joseph Smith in 1827, is another testament of Jesus Christ and a literal account of small groups of Israelites who they believe colonized the Americas around 600 B.C.
The change, first seen in the new version of the Doubleday edition of the Book of Mormon, was made in the introduction, initially written in 1981, and not to the part of the text held to be sacred and unerring by faithful Latter-day Saints.
Lots of Lamanites,
Some Lamanites, or
Zero Lamanites.
Simon Southerton said "the Lamanites are invisible" in other words there are none.
IF THERE ARE ZERO LAMANITES, THEN THE BOOK OF MORMON CAN NOT BE TRUE, BECAUSE THE BOM IS THE STORY OF THE INHABITANTS OF THE AMERICAS, AND THE LAMANITES WERE THE ONLY SURVIVORS.
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote "The Lord of the Rings" and had imaginary people like the Hobits.
Joseph Smith wrote "The Book of Mormon" and had imaginary people like the Lamanites. The difference is that Joseph Smith convinced people that his imaginary people are real.
Here is a link to "DNA vs the Book Of Mormon". This video had a lot to do with the change to The Book of Mormon.
http://www.lhvm.org/vid_dna_med.htm
"The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it" a quote from Brigham Young
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/meadows1.htm#DOCTRINE
"There is not a man or woman who violates the covenants made with their God (in the Mormon temples), that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man or woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants." - From sermon by Brigham Young, March 16, 1856, Journal of Discourses, Vol. III., page 247.
"The doctrines of the Church affirm that the Atonement wrought by the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is efficacious for the sins of all who believe, repent, are baptized by one having authority, and receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. However, if a person thereafter commits a grievous sin such as the shedding of innocent blood, the Savior´s sacrifice alone will not absolve the person of the consequences of the sin. Only by voluntarily submitting to whatever penalty the Lord may require can that person benefit from the Atonement of Christ.
Several early Church leaders, most notably Brigham Young, taught that in a complete theocracy the Lord could require the voluntary shedding of a murderer´s blood-presumably by capital punishment-as part of the process of Atonement for such grievous sin. This was referred to as "blood Atonement." Since such a theocracy has not been operative in modern times, the practical effect of the idea was its use as a rhetorical device to heighten the awareness of Latter-day Saints of the seriousness of murder and other major sins. This view is not a doctrine of the Church and has never been practiced by the Church at any time." - Lowell Snow
Lord is also a title. It means one who is above another in rank or stature. Adam certainly was that, as the mortal father of the entire human race. Adam was given dominion and stewardship over all the animals of the earth, making him a "lord" over those creations (Gen. 1:26).
What he was NOT is our Heavenly Father, Elohim. Brigham Young never taught that Adam was Elohim. You won't find it.
Like I have said, Brigham Young DID teach that Adam was God the Father. But as I have said, and many others too, it is false. It was wrong. As we have understood it, it was an error, and we don't believe it. It is not our doctrine. No person who has lived upon this earth has been perfect save Jesus Christ.
Blood atonement, Brigham Young did teach about this:
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/jofdvol3p243_249brighambloodatonement.htm#The%20blood%20of%20Christ
The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it
Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord, as is plain,
If the Mormon people were writing songs about Adam being earth's Lord, don't you think Brigham Young was teaching this? 1856 would have been while Brigham Young was prophet seer and revelator.
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech8.htm
In 1856 the Mormons published a hymnal which contained a hymn entitled, "We Believe In Our God." This hymn plainly taught that Adam was the father of Christ:
We believe in our God the great Prince of His race,
The Archangel Michael, the Ancient of Days,
Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord, as is plain,
Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.
We believe in His Son, Jesus Christ, who, in love
To his brethren and sisters, came down from above
To die to redeem them from death, and to teach
To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.
(Sacred Hymns and Spiritual Songs for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Liverpool, 1856, p.375, as quoted in "The Position of Adam in Latter-day Saint Scripture and Theology," p.16.)
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech8.htm
The Father of Our Spirits
Brigham Young also taught that Adam was the Father of our spirits. In 1873 he stated: "... Father Adam came here and helped make the earth.... Then he said, 'I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here.... I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh ..." (Deseret News, June 18, 1873). Joseph Lee Robinson explained that Brigham Young taught that "Adam and Eve were the natural father and mother of every spirit that comes to this plannet [sic], or that receives, tabernacles on this planet, ... and that Adam was God our Eternal Father...." On page 180 of Women of Mormondom we are told that "Adam and Eve are the names of the fathers and mothers of worlds.... These were father and mother of a world of spirits who had been born to them in heaven."
Peter denied Christ three times. Does that mean he was a false apostle? No. It means he was mortal, with all the weaknesses that accompany mortality.
Is Adam Elohim? No. Brigham Young didn't teach that. Give me one reference or quote where he stated that Adam (Michael) is the same individual as Elohim. I don't think you'll find it, because I haven't found it either.
Brigham Young was a smart person. He knew perfectly well that Michael and Elohim were two different individuals. He never said Michael was Elohim. So why did he teach the so-called "Adam-God theory", in which he stated that Adam was "God the Father" (note a very distinct difference to saying Michael=Elohim)? We don't know why he taught it. President Young did not live long enough to explain what he meant by it, or to reconcile it with the other teachings of the Church, scripture, and gospel. Unfortunately, until we pass through the veil and have a chance to ask him, or have further revelation from God, we will not know what he meant by it.
In all probability Brigham Young was wrong. Even prophets and apostles are fallible. Again, we do not believe prophets are infallible! Christ was the only perfect person to live on this earth. Prophets are mortal human beings, with their own agency, thoughts and opinions. That is why we are given the holy spirit to lead and guide us and give us discernment between truth and error. President Kimball and Elder McConkie later noted that the "Adam-God theory" is false. President Woodruff said that Young was expressing his personal opinion. That interpretation of the doctrine was never ratified and sustained through the appointed priesthood quorums and general membership of the church.
As such, it is NOT the doctrine of the LDS church. We don't believe it today. We believe Elohim is God the Eternal Father, the father of our spirits. And Adam is Michael, the father of the human family in the flesh. These doctrines Brigham Young himself also taught many many times.
But that doesn't make Brigham Young a false prophet either. There are many contradictions in the Bible. Does that make those prophets false? No. Does that make the Bible false? No. It means they were human, with all the frailties and weaknesses associated with mortality. Even Nephi admitted he wasn't perfect (1 Ne. 19:6). The Spirit will testify of what is true. It is by the Spirit that we can witness when prophets and apostles speak the word of God.
This is the link to Randy Gavin's story about how the Lord led him out of Mormonism.
http://goodnewsforlds.org/bios/randy-gavin.html
This is his story below:
Randy Gavin
Randy Gavin I was born and raised a Latter Day Saint. My folks were good people. I had good people for siblings. I had good people for friends. I was active in the LDS Church in every way possible, which culminated in serving as the Stake Mission President in Salt Lake Stake the oldest stake in the church.
Then came a fellow from California, John Henry Yount, broadcasting into Utah a challenge : " I will give one thousand dollars to anyone who can prove that Brigham Young did not teach that Adam was God." This was the second time that this foul and evil doctrine "theory" had come to my attention.
While serving as a co-zone leader in the Cumorah Mission of the LDS Church at the age of 20. I had been walking along a country road with my companion, a likable fellow from Cashe County Utah, when a tri-folded paper blew across the road. I picked it up and read it "Did you know that Brigham Young taught that Adam was God?" My companion had heard of it before and said it was an apostate thing, throw it away. I could not litter. I looked up the references in the Journal of Discourses as soon as occasion permitted. No misquotes. I wondered what to make of it.....I decided it was just old 1800's flowery talk. I went on at great cost to my future wife and family.
The denying of leadership opportunities and full fellowship to a whole race of people was another issue that I passed on, believing that it was beyond me to understand, even though I read all that the leaders put out on the subject. In 1978 that race of people were granted leadership opportunities with full fellowship and participation and the change was said to be a revelation by some and by others it was called an agonized over policy change. Whatever it was I was greatly relieved. However when that man John Henry Yount took it upon himself to issue his challenge regarding Brigham Young's doctrine of God I was at a loss. President Kimball came out with a statement in the church news. 'Brigham Young did not ever teach that Adam was God.'
At almost the same time Apostle Bruce R. McConkie's letter to a BYU professor was being passed around by people in the know. I was not in the know. A friend and Stake high councilman lived across the street from us. I told him that I was going to take apart this John Henry Yount and take his thousand dollars. He seemed concerned and told me that he had something that I should see. It was Bruce R McConkie's letter admitting that Brigham Young did teach that Adam was in fact God the Father. The professor was being threatened with excommunication if he did not stop talking about it to folks around Utah Valley.
After verifying that the letter was real I went back to the source documents including the Journal of Discourses and the Deseret News speeches that Brigham Young had corrected for publication. This time I was open to find the truth of the matter. I wept at the deception that people whom I had regarded as honest, had perpetrated upon me and my family.
Brigham Young in fact was a man who claimed to be a Prophet but ultimately did not know who God was. He was taught by Joseph Smith. It wasn't just the lying to me by the church and President Kimball, it was the undoing of the mystique that we had prophets and apostles who would not lead us astray. It turns out that Brigham Young led the church astray about God for at least 25 years of his ministry. I had taken all the seminaries and Institute classes and should have been told such an important item of history in the church.
Many things happened to bring me to the foot of the cross where I left my burden. It has been a pleasure to learn of the Creator of the Universe and His pursuit of me in my life, the life that he gave me. He has given me a new life and it is not a life about me, but a life about his work to save men and women by the finished work of Jesus on the cross. I am so relieved as I think it all through, that God is not a man, not a creature in the Universe, but rather the Creator of the Universe. And He loved me first. And He sought me. And He bought me. And I am and will be eternally grateful to Him. I will make no praise to a man who presumes to become a God. I will praise God Almighty Who became man to save me
Angela Haisten's Testimony Out of Mormonism to Christianity
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AS7_KUi-m0w
You guys may worship the spirit brother of Satan but I worship Jesus Christ of the Bible. you can not come up with this out of the Bible or the Book of Mormon.
Talmage's quote does NOT contain the name "(Adam)". That was added by Mr. Rob Phillips. Mr. Phillips also conveniently added "(Adam)" to Brigham Young's quote also, which is not there in the original.
Evil and conspiring men love to twist words, take quotes out of context, misrepresent beliefs, and persecute and stone believers in Christ (1 Cor. 4:12; 2 Tim. 3:12). It has happened this way since the beginning of time. That's alright; it just adds to my testimony that it is indeed the truth. Satan would love to see the truth distorted and destroyed. Lucifer knows the truth (James 2:19), and he will do everything in his power to stop it. Who has ever seen anti-Baptists, or anti-Catholics, or anti-Evangelicals? There aren't any. But there is an army of anti-Mormons who are leading the assault on the Lord's true church. Why? Because it is true, and the Adversary knows it.
Back to the original comparison above, by Rob Phillips. There are several misquotes and inaccuracies, which makes the entire piece suspect.
1. Talmage’s quote does not contain the name Adam. I assume Phillips inserted it. I don’t have the book to look up Brigham Young’s quote.
2. We do not teach that Christ was married or that any wedding was his. We have no doctrine for that.
3. The Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are the same being, just different names. We don’t differ there.
Some of the quotes are out of context, some may be opinion, and most of the quotes fail to disagree with the Bible. Unfortunately this is typical of non-LDS when they write about LDS doctrine.
It’s simply one interpretation of the Bible against another. That’s why one has to turn to God for the answer – James 1:5-6. If you want the truth of LDS doctrine: go to lds.org, go to the scriptures, and ask God.
How do you know that Jesus Christ is not the spirit brother of Satan? How do you know that we are all not spirit brothers and sisters? Modern revelation through living prophets and apostles has taught otherwise.
Where does the Bible say that Satan is a created being, an angel, and not a man? How is an angel different than a man? Angels, as I understand them, are men and women either in spirit form, translated, or resurrected. What is an angel to you? Indeed, Isaiah understood Lucifer to be a man (Isaiah 14:16). How can any person in the Bible who is treated in every way as a man be any other sort of "thing" without father or mother? What was he then? A force? Some sort of ball of energy? No. Lucifer is a very real, fallen, man, a son of Heavenly Father, who lost his opportunity to obtain a mortal body, and he will forever be utterly miserable.
Yes, Jesus, Lucifer, and all of us have the same Eternal Father in heaven. Lucifer was, indeed, a son of the morning. Why did Isaiah give him such a high title? Because he was originally one of the Father's choice sons in the pre-mortal existence. But he rebelled against the Father, sought to take His glory and honor, and was cast out, along with a third of the hosts of heaven who followed Him (Isaiah 14:12-19).
As far as I'm aware, Jesus was not born twice. There was only one man who lived on this earth who we worship as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and that is the one that was born of Mary of Nazareth in the meridian of time. There is no other Jesus. We may have different beliefs about Jesus, but he is one in the same individual.
Jesus Christ of the Bible is not the spirit brother of Satan. This is a quote from Fairlds.org
"Jesus, Satan, and all humanity share God the Father as their spiritual sire. "
http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan
Jesus was God then became a man, but was still fully God. Satan was a created being, an angel, that had NO father or mother. How could God be a brother, or related in any way, to Satan who is an angel, not a man?
The LDS have the wrong Jesus.
http://goodnewsforlds.com/
Hokey - why do you believe that Mormons are not Christian? Everything in our church points to Jesus Christ - the name of the church, our hymns, our scriptures, our beliefs, our doctrines, our practices, our conferences, our humanitarian effort, our schools, our ordinances, our temples, our priesthood, our organization - it ALL points to Christ, for He is the head of the Church, as He has always been, the chief cornerstone. There is no other name given under heaven whereby man may be saved. So why this business trying to convince people that we are not Christian? What makes Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists, Evangelicals, or any other Christian denomination Christian? It is our collective belief in Christ. He is the Savior and Redeemer. He is the Atoner. He is the Son of God. It is only in and through Him that we may be saved.
No, I'm not scared. It just doesn't matter. I'm firm in what I believe and nothing you can say can shake me. I've lived long enough to have seen and heard it all. But you are really showing insecurity in your own religion and it deserves better representation.
bwb,
Are you scared to watch this or would it shake your beliefs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5Ox-NGTuYE
And again . . .
This link is to the testimonies of over 150 people who have come out of Mormonism and are now Christians:
http://www.mormoninfo.org/news-info/testimonies
This is one of my favorites;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5Ox-NGTuYE
Hokey, There you go again. If your own faith is true, then preach it. Spending so much time looking for this stuff is creepy behavior.
Hokey,
“IF THE LDS ARE CHRISTIAN JUST LIKE OTHER CHRISTIANS,
WHY ARE THEY TRYING TO CONVERT THE SOUTHERN BAPTISTS TO THEIR RELIGION?”
We never claimed to be “Christians just like other Christians”. We are restored Christianity, not Protestant/Evangelical Christianity. We claim the same doctrine as the original church organized by Christ. However we do have the same VALUES as other Christians because we believe in salvation through Jesus Christ and strive to become more like him.
In reference to your list, how does one convert from LDS to Mormonism? Ever consider that people become Mormons, not because of the skill and number of LDS missionaries, but because its TRUE? Give people a little credit; they are not duped, brainwashed or stupid. They recognize truth when they hear it.
I am so very grateful my great-grandparents had the courage to join this church. I am so grateful I was raised in the gospel of Christ. Every good thing in my life is a result of my activity in the Mormon Church. I love this gospel with all my heart. It is my rock.
"who can prove that Brigham Young did not teach that Adam was God."
This challenge brought Randy Gavin out of Mormonism. Randy Gavin was the former Stake Mission President in Salt Lake Stake the oldest stake in the church.
The following quote comes from his story,
Then came a fellow from California, John Henry Yount, broadcasting into Utah a challenge : " I will give one thousand dollars to anyone who can prove that Brigham Young did not teach that Adam was God." This was the second time that this foul and evil doctrine "theory" had come to my attention.
read the rest of Randy Gavin's story here:
http://www.goodnewsforlds.org/bios/randy-gavin.html
50,000 to 60,000 LDS MISSIONARIES
Yes, this many are out there at any given time, knocking on people's doors, telling them their church is wrong, the LDS is the ONLY true church. Who are they after? They convert more Southern Baptists to Mormonism than any other denomination. So should Christians be fighting back? YES!!!!!
IF THE LDS ARE CHRISTIAN JUST LIKE OTHER CHRISTIANS,
WHY ARE THEY TRYING TO CONVERT THE SOUTHERN BAPTISTS TO THEIR RELIGION?
http://www.mormonconverts.com/LDS/index-misc.htm
At Mormon Converts.com you can choose to read the stories of people from the list of churches below to find out why they converted to Mormonism.
Former Religions:
Anglican
Atheist
Baptist
Catholic
Church of England
Church of Ireland
Church of Scotland
Congregational
Jewish
Lutheran
Methodist
Pentecostal
Presbyterian
Protestant
Unitarian
LDS
Non-Denominationa
If a Baptist started going to a Lutheran church that would not be called converting, because they are still going to a Christian church. Same if a Methodist changed and started going to a Presbyterian Church. They are still going to a Christian Church. The conversion part is because they are joining a religion that is not Christian when they CONVERT to Mormonism.
Hokey, your story stated - "J took Kurt by the hand and said, "I was married in the temple, had numerous callings in the LDS church and taught primary classes. We taught the children about temples, and prophets, and obedience to God's commandments but we never taught them about Jesus. I had to leave Mormonism to find Jesus."
Well, since the Primary Manual is available online for anyone to read, I decided to check the accuracy of the statement about not teaching about Christ. Surprisingly, you or "J" are completely wrong. Here are a few of the lesson titles in the Primary Manual
-I am a Child of Child
-I Chose to follow Jesus Christ
-The Birth of Jesus Christ Brought Joy to the Earth
Of the 46 Lessons, about half refer to Jesus or Heavenly Father in the title. If you actually want to take the time to read any of the lessons, I'm sure you will not find a single lesson that doesn't talk about our Lord and Savior. The other lessons talk about "evil" stuff like Families, Reverence, Being Kind, Helping Others. I don't want to say that "J" was lying but you can go the website and find out for yourself if Jesus is the subject of the Primary Lessons (Children's Sunday School). (http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=5a401b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=8f32767978c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____)
Frustrating to see people lie about our beliefs. Obviously, I have no problems with anyone believing however they choose, please show some courtesy and allow me to believe how I choose.
Thanks
Hokey,
“50,000 to 60,000 LDS MISSIONARIES”
And why are LDS missionaries successful? They don’t use your disruptive and negative tactics. They don’t hover around Baptist gatherings ready to preach to someone at the door. That’s just rude. They don't hang anti-Baptist pamphlets on doorknobs. They let the truth of the gospel speak for itself. The LDS church does not educate its members, including the missionaries, on other religions. If I want to learn about Baptist doctrine, I'll ask a Baptist. Our missionaries go out with NO training in Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, etc., doctrine to prepare them to “show others where they’re wrong”. They go out prepared to share the gospel of Jesus Christ, in obedience to Matt. 28:19-20.
I think Scott Gordon said it well -
"The LDS "core beliefs" that our critics preach are frequently misrepresented if not twisted beyond recognition, flat out wrong, or wrested from random statements torn from historical context. It amazes me that some anti-Mormons claim that Mormons don't know their own
beliefs and only anti-Mormons know what Mormons "really" believe. How can we believe something if we don't even know what it is? . . . It can't be a belief of the Mormons if the Mormons don't believe it."
50,000 to 60,000 LDS MISSIONARIES
Yes, this many are out there at any given time, knocking on people's doors, telling them their church is wrong, the LDS is the ONLY true church. Who are they after? They convert more Southern Baptists to Mormonism than any of denomination. So should Christians be fighting back? YES!!!!!
Lol...Hokey, you are funny...apparently if I defend the Mormon faith, I must be mormon...just like if I defend the Catholic faith, I must be Catholic. Whatever religion I am, I sure hope it ain't yours! 'Coz personally I believe heaven and hell hinges on the values the person has, not the theology, which apparently your religion doesn't teach. But apparently your religion is okay with tearing apart others. So I have a suggestion. If you're so concerned about everyone's salvation, then why just condemn the mormons? Why not Catholics, too? And what about lutherans? And how about athiests who have good values but don't believe in God? And what about Christians who work in the film industry (Oh, wait, I've already been called a Christian wh*re on this site for doing just that, so I guess that's covered.) Jehovah's witnesses believe that only 144,000 people are saved. There's a lot more people than that in the world, I mean, since we're talking about heaven and hell and all. So forget about fighting porno and family disintegration. Mormons read Harry Potter!!
Well. I have some sad news. I added up the hours and realized that the time I spent blogging could have been spent feeding 42 starving orphans. I'm trying to decide whether God would want me to spend time tearing you apart, Hokey, or feeding those orphans...hmm...blogging, or orphans...making fun of Hokey, or orphans...drat. God's told me I need to feed the orphans. Apparently he thinks that's a more Christian way to spend my time or something. Weird. Well, whatever. So here's a last note.
I had a great time, making fun of you, bashing you for what you believe and feel. Actually, that's a lie. I hate blogging and trolling people makes me feel crappy. But yeah, I bashed. And I bet you a million bucks that it didn't change your mind. In fact I bet it just made you hate me. Isn't it funny what tearing down others can do? It doesn't make them any more open to your ideas. If your neighbor has an ugly house, throwing bricks at their windows won't make it any prettier, and it won't make them like you, either.
I know firsthand that dealing with things in a negative way never made me happy, and it never changed a person's mind. I want to be a person that builds up, not breaks down. And I'm not talking about religion here, I'm talking about everything. I hope, Hokey, that you choose to change people's lives in a positive way.
Now, I'm off to feed those orphans! Except theres 53 now so I've gotta run. I hope you choose what makes you happy and strengthens your faith. May God bless you.
Hokey,
And you call yourself Christian. You are full of scorn, ridicule, mockery and disrespect. I do not believe as you, but your beliefs have my respect because they are sacred to you. I don’t take what you hold dear, and trample it to the ground. Hopefully other readers will see you for what you are. I sure do.
I have never heard of a Mormon treating another religion like that. You should need nothing more than the truth of what you believe, to attract people to your faith. Tearing down another to gain converts is shameful and certainly not Christlike.
Strudelcookies,
are you LDS? If I have offended you I am sorry, but this is an issue of heaven and hell.
And so you'll do whatever you can to destroy their faith? That's nice of you.
People have ridiculed me because I believe Jesus was born of a virgin and that the ten commandments was written by the finger of God. It sounds weird to other people, but that's what I believe. Catholics praying to saints is really weird to me. Jew women having to not clip their fingernails after they have their period is weird weird weird!
So what? Breaking down their religion just because they don't believe in what you or I do is stupid. There are bigger battles to fight.
Strudelcookies
Mormonism was founded by a guy who stuck his head in a hat to look into his seer stone, so he could translate Reformed Egyptian into the Book of Mormon from some "golden plates" that he wouldn't let anyone else see. You figure it out.
>>By this time Kurt was begging for us to let him go... he was clearly rocked by the testimonies of these former Mormons.<<
Wow, I bet that made you feel really good. In my spare time I go to the Vatican with former Catholic priests and let them tell Catholics why they left the Catholic church. I love seeing their faith shaken. It does my heart good.
So, why are you so against mormons? Did they burn your house down or what?
Chip writes an email for most days of the Manti Miracle Pageant. The following is something that happened one night of the pageant: (I just used a capital letter in place of the Christian's names.)
WEEK #2 - TUESDAY PAGEANT
Last night was another awesome night on the pageant streets. Most of the evening, there were large groups of Christians and Mormons engaged in deep religious dialogue. I want to share with you a really FUN discussion I had with an elderly Mormon man named Kurt.
He walked up to me and said, "You look like a nice guy, so let me ask you, What are you doing? and Why are you doing it?"
I responded that I was sharing Biblical truth with anyone who would listen and that the reason I was doing it was because I LOVE LDS people and I want to see them come to an understanding of the truth.
Kurt then said, "I am convinced that you are sincere but I want you to know that you are wasting your time... you will never convince anyone to leave the LDS church." I immediately said, "Kurt, I want you to meet someone." And I led him to M and S (one of our converted Mormon couples).
I said, "S and M are former Mormons and they want to tell you why they left. M and S will you please tell Kurt why you left the LDS church."
While they were talking with Kurt, I quickly looked around and found S L. When Kurt was finished talking with M and S I said, "Kurt, I want you to meet someone else, SL is a former Mormon and she wants to tell you why she left the LDS church."
While Kurt was talking to SL, I found A. When Kurt finished with SL, I introduced him to A and said, "Kurt, I want you to meet someone else, A is a former Mormon, A, will you please tell Kurt why you left."
While Kurt was talking with A, I found J. When Kurt finished talking with A, I said, "Kurt, I want you to meet J, J is a former Mormon and she wants to tell you why she left."
J took Kurt by the hand and said, "I was married in the temple, had numerous callings in the LDS church and taught primary classes. We taught the children about temples, and prophets, and obedience to God's commandments but we never taught them about Jesus. I had to leave Mormonism to find Jesus."
By this time Kurt was begging for us to let him go... he was clearly rocked by the testimonies of these former Mormons. Before he fled to the security of the temple grounds I said to him, "Kurt, I am NOT wasting my time! Mormon people are listening to us and they are finding a personal relationship with Jesus outside of the Mormon church."
We then asked if we could pray for him to which he fervently declined and fled to his seat. As he was walking away, we bowed our heads and prayed for Kurt. Again, God is Good; All the Time.
What is up with this article? Since when is it "Christian" to bash on others' beliefs? If this same guy had bashed on the Catholic or Baptist religion using obscure, outdated references (which this article apparently does) there'd be an outcry. There'd be an outcry if they even used current quotes and references.
Oh, but wait, it's okay to bash on mormons 'coz they're mormons, right? C'mon, people, we're all on the same team here.
JC and anniefourjesus,
First of all my real name is Jerry, but someone else was already using my name. Hokey is a nick name from Jr. High. I just want you to know that the Lord is raising up a people to reach out to those lost in the lies of Mormonism. There are a great many people in Mormonism that are just there because they do not feel safe to leave. For many It is a matter of being cut off from their families, losing their jobs, breaking up their marriage, not being accepted in their community. But there are many who have chosen to no longer follow the lies of Joseph Smith and follow the way, the truth, and the life, God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, the Jesus Christ in the Bible, not the"Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints".
Back in March of this year, 17 people from my church including, my two oldest sons, drove to Utah to help distribute the video "Jesus Christ/ Joseph Smith". 350,000 videos were hung on the doorknobs of close to every home in Utah. Please watch this video and encourage other Christians to watch it to. Consider showing it in your church or small group.
http://goodnewsforlds.com/
Also, another great tool is "The Mormon Scrapbook" by Daniel (Chip) Thompson. I have been involved in teaching these lessons to 4 or 5 groups. Christians need to be ready to reachout to Mormons, because there is going to be a flood of people coming out, but they need to hear the truth and not be carried away into other lies such as the New Age.
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/mormonscrapbook_xb240.htm
We were invited by Chip to go to Ephriam, Utah, June of 2006. The Mormon Miracle Pageant is presented at the temple in Manti, Utah (5 miles south of Ephriam). Ephriam Church of the Bible (Chip's church) trains Christians to go out on the street and witness to 10,000 Mormons, more or less each night of the pageant. This little church of 100 is the only Christian Church of any size in Sanpetee County, Utah. This community is 95% Mormon. The people in the church get so excited when Christian come to witness because they feel very isolated from other Christians.
So take your vacation and come and show the love of Jesus in Sanpetee County, Utah next June.
bwb,
My galations quote was comparing the "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" with Galations 1:8 which clearly states that accursed is the one who presents any other gospel than what was taught in the New Testament.
That's just minor though, the massive lack of archaeological evidence of nearly %90 of the Mormon Bible in itself is enough to convince most.
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/bible-archaeology.htm
JC, thank you, I have enjoyed coming to this particular discussion, as I have learned a great deal about mormonism and I have also learned more about my own beliefs in Christ.
I'm learning to bring everything under the light of Holy Scripture. The Lord brought me through the days of being a legalist in the old worldwide into freedom in Jesus Christ and I am forever thankful to Him!
What a light went on in my life when the Lord led me to see that what He wanted from me was a personal relationship with Him. The very thing that was missing from my life. To discover that I am a daughter of The King of kings was finding my true self.
Jesus Christ is my Lord, and I am not ashamed of Him, as He was not ashamed to give His own life for me, even while I was at my very worst, I was His enemy and yet He loved me still.
It was a very hard thing at first to learn how to let go of the control of my life into HIS handsl but I have discovered by letting Him be LORD in my life and over my life; my life has actually become so much more than I could ever hope for and it's only just beginning.
It breaks my heart to see people in bondage to things they believe are from God; my prayer is that the Lord will soften hearts, and open eyes and ears to hear Him, to see Him and to know His love that never fails.
I appreciate both sides of this walk with the Lord, He is my constant companion today and may you JC and Hokey know that it's been refreshing to read what you both have discussed here.
"Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
God's peace and grace to you both! Annie
To anniefourjesus and Hokey:
May God continue to richly bless you both, you are not far from Him.
From Mark 12: 28-34
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
Praise the Holy One who sits on the throne on the Sea of Glass for you both. May He continue to enrich your wisdom and knowledge. You both are a blessing and very much loved!!
I'm in the process of reading Jim Spencer's book, "Beyond Mormonism" this is a must read for anyone having this discussion. As a former member of the world wide church of God, (Herbert W. Armstrong) many of the beliefs held by the Mormon church were also held by the worldwide church, we believed, "we were the one true church," we had a list of grace by works, it seems to me that the Church was placed in authority over the Bible by men and this is clearly error.
The Bible is the final authority not man, nor the church. Jesus Christ is building HIS church; The Holy Spirit adds to it.
Reader the former Elder's account was really informative. This is not some ignorant man; he was an Elder and he also taught mormonism. It is a beautiful read of how the Lord Jesus Christ leads him from a works based religion into a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Himself.
I prayed before I sent for this book, I asked The Holy Spirit to show me the truth about Mormonisn and He led me to this book and I highly recommend it.
Following Jesus will cost us something, as it cost Him everything. But it is so worth it!
I love when the former Elder, read Romans, and he's reading about salvation by faith in Jesus CHrist, and not by works, lest any man should boast and in his heart he knows this is the truth!!!
It is all the work of God, it is a precious gift from our Father to His children. Thank you, Father!
No church is going to save anyone. Salvation is in Christ Jesus alone.
opps;
We deserve death and hell because we broke His laws, but He (JESUS) fulfilled the law and could the pay the full price for our sins. He then gives us eternal life as a gift. He paid a huge price for this gift that he offers us for free. All we have to do is open the gift.
Again it is all about Him, not us
bwb,
this is the difference between Mormonism and Christianity right there.
Those verses out of the Book of Mormon point to what men can do.
1.deny ourselves of all ungodliness
2. do all we can do.
In the Bible Ephisians 2:8&9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Grace does not come after "all we can do". Grace is a gift from God. It's not about us , it is all about Him. So that no man should boast.
Jesus did live a life without breaking those Ten Commandments.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We deserve death and hell because we broke His laws, but fulfilled the law and could the pay the full price for our sins. He then gives us eternal life as a gift. He pay a huge price for this gift that he offers us for free. All we have to do is open the gift.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
We open the gift by confessing Jesus Christ as our Lord. Jesus dying on the cross, that is it.
Galations 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
bwb, glory in the cross of your Lord Jesus Christ.
So does "after all we can do" just mean that we do our best and Christ does the rest. We only need to do the best we can?
2 Nephi 25:23
For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. When are we saved by grace? AFTER ALL WE CAN DO.
What is all we can do?
So to be saved we have to
1. deny ourselves of ALL ungodliness
2. do ALL we can do.
Science is the answer and the reality. Once you understand the science of the universe, you will become whole with it.
According to Moroni 10:32 Christ's saving grace does not apply UNTIL a person has denied himself of all ungodliness (reached perfection)
What would a person's life look like if he denied himself of all ungodliness?
The answer is PERFECT; according to Moroni 10:32
bwb,
Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness?
Moroni 10:32 "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfect in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind, and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ..."
The if part is very important here.
What would a person's life look like if he denied himself of all ungodliness?
Jesus said in the sermon on the mount that anyone who hates his brother is guilty of murder.
Jesus said anyone who lusts after a woman has committed adultery in his heart already.
So yes, I am guilty of breaking all ten of the Ten Commandments.
bwb, I have broken all Ten.
Have you ever taken something that wasn't yours? The value doesn't matter.
Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever used the Lord's name in vain?
Have you ever killed someone?
Have you ever committed adultery?
bwb
All the Christians (non LDS) commenting here would answer this question loud and clear: YES WE ARE SINNERS. So this question is not to judge you in anyway.
bwb,
Romans 3:23 says; "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Have you broken any of the ten commandments, are you a sinner?
JC and Others,
Sometimes it seems you are not reading what I am writing. I'm trying to understand your words and look up your references, including 1 Tim. 4:1. I have read Galations over and over. Again, these all mesh with LDS doctrine with the correct interpretation. But, again, you are telling me one thing and the Holy Spirit (and common logic) tells me another. Satan is a deceiver and you believe I’m a victim (I get that!), but Satan, though he can do a lot of things, cannot give one peace. He simply isn’t capable. There's only one Prince of Peace.
You do not want to consider the other possibility, that maybe I'm not deceived.
All the questions about the great apostacy, etc. are so easily answered, but I wonder if you really want to know or just want to entrap. I live by Proverbs 4:13.
From the LDS Website:
***
After centuries of spiritual darkness, a restoration of truth was needed. Under the Direction of our Heavenly Father, the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored on the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith. God has promised it will never be taken from His children again.
***
The only (Chrisitian) spiritual darkness in history, at least on a mass scale, was the dark ages when Catholicism was the law of the land. But this ended long before Joseph Smith was born.
***
...but the gospel as established by Jesus Christ was lost, resulting in a period called the Great Apostasy.
***
This, references 2nd Thessalonians 2, 1-3. However, this is just incorrect. The great apostasy spoken in this particular passage is the great tribulations that are coming shortly to this earth. These haven't happened yet, but the LDS website puts this in past tense.
***
He called a young man named Joseph Smith, and through him, the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored to the earth.
***
For Christians, we believe that Jesus WAS the fullness of the gospel, and it was through Jesus that it was restored to the earth, not Joseph Smith's, or anybody else for that matter.
***
Although many good people believed in Christ and tried to understand and teach His gospel, they did not have the fullness of truth or the priesthood authority to baptize and perform other saving ordinances at that time. They had inherited a state of apostasy, as each generation was influenced by what the previous one passed on, including changes in the doctrines and in ordinances, such as baptism.
***
What, only Joseph Smith was privy to the "correct way" of doing a baptism. Dunking in water is dunking in water. If it is not done with the Holy Spirit, one is just getting wet. It really is that simple.
***
Joseph Smith’s First Vision marked the beginning of the Restoration of Jesus Christ’s Church to the earth.
***
The LDS Website referenced Acts 3 19-21 as "prophecy" that the church will be restored.
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
This is also an incorrect translation. The church was restored when Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead. Smith had nothing to do with it. (So no man may boast) The above passage talks about after Jesus' return, he will restore the Earth, not the Church, as he promised long ago.
Twist it just enough and it sounds right, but it isn't.
All one has to do is align something with God's word to see if is true or not. I don't see that here.
bwb,
Do you believe in and follow the Ten Commandments?
bwb, Jesus loves you.
Galations 1:8
"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."
Read that, then go read the front of the Mormon Bible.
To BWB:
Dear one, you who are loved by God, we are not condemning you, not at all. We're just praying that we can open your eyes to the God whom you seek. It is extremely obvious that you desperately want to be right with God, and that you seek a relationship with Him. That is perfectly acceptable and most desirable.
However, dear one, there are many wolves in sheep's clothing and Jesus spoke of this many times. We were given His word so that we can identify these wolves when they come into our midst, and they do quite often. We are always to compare what is spoken to what is written, Paul said this himself when he said that the Bible is profitable for sound teaching. He did not include any other books, just the Word of God. Solomon also spoke of the importance of holding on to this teaching as well:
Proverbs 4:13 Hold on to instruction, do not let it go; guard it well, for it is your life.
But, the most compelling is, I believe, this. If any one receives teaching, it should always coincide with who they say is teaching it. And Mormonism does not coincide with what the Bible says.
Galatians 6:6 Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.
Most loved of God, He wants you to continue to look for Him and seek Him, but the real Him, not somebody else's interpretation of Him. Look for yourself at what is written. This is where we are getting our information. Directly from the source itself, not from somebody else's interpretation or addition to the source.
There are many books written about the Bible, or in addition to the Bible, but they are not the Bible. And unless they align completely and perfectly with God's word, they are not from God.
Dear one, there is also a verse in the Bible that you may or may not be aware of. Please see 1st Timothy 4:1. Humans are so easily led astray.
Did God really say...?
I was just at the lds.org site and reading what lds believes. I went to the King James Bible about something that was posted on their site: Talking about The Great Apostasy as if this had already taken place.
In my Bible Study under the guidance of The Holy Spirit; this event has not yet happened! These are end time events, when Satan will sit in the Temple, proclaiming to be God.
So I know this is false, and if this is false, what else is false. I used to be a member of the old worldwide church of God, from Pasadena CA, and at one time I believed we were the "true church"; I thank the good Lord, that HE led us into the truth, and the church was shaken by The Holy Spirit and the ERRORS that our church was preaching, were shown to be just that errors.
Be careful folks in what you allow men to teach you, Satan knows scripture only he twists it and many many sincere believers can be sincerely wrong.
2 Thessalonians 2
The Great Apostasy
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Blessed be the Word of the Lord!
Friends,
Please do not believe everything you read about the LDS church that is not on the official LDS site. I have seen so many inaccuracies, including this site (especially this site), online. On lds.org you can find every scripture that we have, and all official doctrine that we believe. If it is not there, don’t believe it. Not everything said and written by a prominent leader of the church of the past is official doctrine. These people were mortals like you and me and no one on this earth, other than Jesus Christ, is or was perfect.
I have been a member of the LDS church 50+ years. I have studied, been taught, and taught others, the gospel my whole life. I hear and read everything our prophet and apostles say. I have lived what I’ve been taught. It works. It has brought profound joy into my life. I have felt peace, security, comfort, and strength. I know my Heavenly Father hears my prayers because He has answered them. My life has been free of most of life’s turmoil because of the gospel. By turmoil I mean marital strife, divorce, addictions, and troubled children. Not all LDS people escape turmoil, but with the gospel, life is definitely better. It is my iron rod to hold onto. Most LDS people, of the many I’ve known, are wonderful, kind, generous, intelligent and happy.
If this isn’t “good fruits” then what is? If I can’t trust the inner feelings of my heart and the whisperings of the Holy Ghost and the answers to my prayers, then what can I trust? You are telling me to ignore all that and to believe you. You also say what I believe doesn’t follow the Bible. For goodness sakes, we study the Bible constantly. If there were anything there that doesn’t fit, we would have noticed. This is my bottom line and I say it in all sincerety and honesty.
Did God really say He was the one and ONLY true God? Satan would have you believe otherwise, but in fact, yes, God did say this.
You can choose to believe the lies of the dark one, who is constantly trying to get people to stumble over whether God really said this or that. Or, you can choose to believe the one that really did say it, God himself.
The choice is and always has been ours. Nobody can make this choice for you, and God is not going to make it difficult. Beloved, look at His word before looking to another's account of it. Don't just take another creation's word for it, look to the creator.
Beloved, sound familiar?
Ever heard of a certain Arab named Mohammed? Same thing, his own lusts and desires ruled what he wrote down as well. He was allowed to have as many wives as he wanted, but restricted his followers to four. And, yes if he wanted your wife, you gave it to him, there were plenty more.
It really is the same lie all over again, "Did God really say...".
We really are more dependent on God than some realize. Here we are, many years in the future of where Adam and Eve were, and still falling for the same lie.
http://www.i4m.com/think/history/Joseph_Smith_mens_wives.htm
Would you share your spouse with the Prophet?
Would you share your spouse with the Prophet?
A Mormon Church apostle explained:
"When the family organization was revealed from heaven—the patriarchal order of God, and Joseph began, on the right and the left, to add to his family, what a quaking there was in Israel."
"Says one brother to another, "Joseph says all covenants [previous marriages] are done away, and none are binding but the new covenants [marriage by priesthood sealing power]; now suppose Joseph should come and say he wanted your wife, what would you say to that?" "I would tell him to go to hell." This was the spirit of many in the early days of this Church. . . . What would a man of God say, who felt aright, when Joseph asked him for his money? [he would give it all willingly] Or if he came and said, "I want your wife?" "O yes," he would say, "here she is, there are plenty more."
JC keep going to Bible College!
The LDS teach that Elohim is Heavenly Father, and Jehovah is His son Jesus.
But as you can see the Bible teaches that Jesus is God or Jehovah is Elohim.
Always Jehovah is Elohim, the one and only true and living God.
always not alwats SORRY
Search the Old Testament
Never is Elohim the Father of Jehovah
Never is Jehovah the son of Elohim
Never are Jehovah and Elohim referred to as separate Gods.
Alwats Jehovah is Elohim, the one and only true and living God.
The Mormon bible and Mormon beliefs seem like a parody of the Christian bible and Christian beliefs. Mormonism is such a cunning and devilish way of discrediting the Triune God, and the bible as the inspired Word of God. It also seems to me that the spirit of Joseph Smith is a faithful replica of that of the prince of darkness because JS and Satan have one thing in common: they have worked overtime to twist the Word of God and to usurp the divinity of Jesus.
1 Kings 8:60 (King James Version)
60That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD [Jehovah] is God [Elohim], and that there is none else
Thus Jesus is God.
Deuteronomy 4:35(King James Version)
35Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim]; there is none else beside him.
Thus Jesus is God
Deuteronomy 4:39 (King James Version)
39Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim] in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
Thus Jesus is God
Isaiah 44:6 (King James Version)
6Thus saith the LORD [Jehovah] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [Jehovah] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God [Elohim].
No God beside Jesus.
Isaiah 45:5 (King James Version)
5I am the LORD [Jehovah], and there is none else, there is no God [Elohim] beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Jesus none else, no God beside Jesus.
Psalm 100:3 (King James Version)
3Know ye that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim]: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Again Jesus is God.
Jehovah is Elohim.
I should not have taken that shot at your school. However, my experience with people who have gone to such places is not good, professionally speaking. They don't know enough to be part of any solution but little enough to be part of the problem. It is something a little less useful than trade school. If religion is your field, go to a university where they will actually teach you something. Baylor, or Regents or TCU or Notre Dame or dozens of others. But going to listen to Billy Bob expound on everything he knows or can make up in ten easy lessons is a waste of your money, whichever "school" you attend. If you want to have an impact on other peoples lives, really learn something that is helpful.
Bible college? Please. Spare us.
JLF - "could be" parallel universes is not the same as "is", but it doesn't really matter because whatever is out there was created by God. "The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament (expanse of heaven) shows His handiwork" Ps 19:1.
If believing in ONE ETERNAL GOD, who created all that exists and oversees it all, makes us flatlanders in your estimation, then so be it. For myself, I put my faith in the triune God and in His Word, the Bible.
To JLF:
Dear one, here you go again, listening to the one who twisted scripture.
Genesis 3:5 - "Your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil". I think, dear one, you may want to see who is actually speaking this. This is coming from we Christians call the evil one, or satan himself. He speaks lies, and called The Father of Lies by Jesus as well.
Genesis 3:22 - Knowing the difference between good and evil does not make you a god. I know not to murder somebody, but I can't raise anybody from the dead. Last time I tried walking on water, I went swimming.
Psalms 82:6 Mormons love this one, but they never finish it: Verse 7, But you will die like mere men, you will fall like every other ruler." Mormons also fail to mention that David also put the word "god" in quotes as well. He wasn't be literal, he was being figurative and sarcastic.
Genesis 1:26 & 27. Dear one, he was not talking to a wife and family, he was addressing Himself. He has chosen to expose himself to us in 3 parts, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We could not take him in His entirity, we would die. Moses was told this when he asked to see God's face. We are also made in His image, but not literally, figuratively, we are body, mind and soul. Three distinct features, yet one being.
Ever hear the expression "Things always happen in 3's". Ever wonder why? Technically, they don't always happen in 3's, but it can easily appear to us that way as we see things that way, we always know there is more than two sides of anything.
Again, who do you trust, Jesus or Joseph Smith?
Also, may I add that once again, your assumptions are incorrect. I am enrolled in Bible college at the moment, and I just completed my class on other major religions. I know all about your religion and the origins of it. I will never give up on presenting the Word of God the way God wanted it presented, not anybody else.
You know as well as I that we are getting nowhere. I am not trying to convert you to anything other than to use reason, logic and common courtesy in areas where you know little. You and others who claim special insights about Mormons know next to nothing and what little you think you know is almost always wrong. So, in the future, please ask us before you start telling others. Because you don't know enough.
JC
Genesis 3:5 "Your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil".
Genesis 3:22 ""And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is to become as one of us to know good from evil."
Psalms 82:6 "Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Genesis 1:26-27 'Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness."
I could go on, but surely the foundation is laid that man is more than has been portrayed elsewhere. But then again, you don't have to believe me. Ask God.
To JLF:
Your explanation of the cement cities and the seer stones was, shall I say, informative, although predictable.
I guess when it all boils down, who do we really trust. Jesus, who died on the cross to show his love for us, whose very existence was prophesied thousands of years before it happened, and whose word is sharper than any double-edge sword as it pierces not just flesh, but spirit as well. Whose Word wasn't just applicable in times past, but in future times as well as today.
Or we can trust some dude who looked into a hat, with a piece of glass, and dictated how he thought it all should be.
Tough choice, I give you that, but I think I'll stick with Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit as God, not as gods. I do this because I believe in what the Word of God says, not in what some person thinks it should have said. There are too many books out there that try to "interpret" the Bible for us, but in the end, I just read the Bible. Go straight to the source, much cleaner, no filters.
JC
Where are the 38 cities. Beats me. I am not an archaeologist, but the cement cities spoken of in the B of M are in central America. Jeff Lindsey provides @ http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml a source for your answers to your questions though.The seer stones are the Urim and Thummim spoken of in the Old Testament. See http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=52&letter=U. Joseph Smith was hounded from the very beginning and was brought up on numerous phony charges. Is the Jewish Encyclopedia an occult instrument too?
BWB - It came to me that you seem to be a person with a heart of compassion which is also the heart that Christ had/has. I see in your post that you can not bear the thought of divine judgement on those who do not know better. I also see in your post where members in your meetings regard other Christians as part of the mormon family. All of these things that you state show a form of inclusion. Where everyone wins. No one is a loser. In not trying to be the party pooper but I say this with love. There will be winners and there will be losers in the final days. That is one of the main problems with the world today is that satan will play the love one another card by including the messages and beliefs of Egypt and other foreign countries into the land of Israel. If I did not love you bwb I would then tell you yes, God loves all religions and wants them all to get along and intermarry ideas and beliefs. No... God is a jealous God and wil not share his Glory with any other religion, beliefs other than the laws and message in the Bible that was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I tell you bwb, the book of mormons is not inspired by the Holy Spirit but by that of another spirit. I tell you this because I LOVE YOU. What saddens my heart is that you have a sincere heart to learn and you have heard the TRUTH but something is keeping you from hearing/seeing. That my friend is what causes my heart to break...
To JLF
You're argument invalidates itself. You said that Christ is God, but has a literal father. This would imply more than one.
Does not the 1st commandment say: You shall have no other gods before Me?
It does not say "..before Us.", it says "... before Me".
Beloved, you can't have it both ways, there can only be one truth.
GMG
You know, I really hate getting into a scripture slinging contest, but to just make the point that we inherit everything Christ inherits, I guess I have to.
Romans 8:14-16 says, "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children (teknon in the Greek) of God" (Teknon emphasizes family relationship based on regeneration and stresses legal standing). Abba is more correctly interpreted as 'daddy' which is an intimate and more familiar term than father. The scripture indicates we are literally children of God just as your off-spring are your literal children.
Romans 8:32 ""He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?". "All things" does mean "all things" except... It means all things.
These quotes seem quite clearly to mean God wants all his children to be like Christ. And what is Christ? He is our exemplar. He was the first. He leads the way. He wants us to be co-inheritors of everything. That means everything. No 'ifs', 'ands' or 'buts'. Everything. He created worlds without number. Nothing was created that was not created without Him. He is Jehovah of the Old Testament. Christ is God. But He has a literal Father. And along with the Holy Ghost they make up the Godhead. But yet they are three separate personages but absolutley in harmony and act as one with one mind and purpose and act as one God. These passages, if taken literaly, indicate that at some point, as co-inherotrs with Christ, we might also become part of that unity in some form or fashion. In fact this is an original Christian concept and was not introduced by Jospeh Smith.
God the Father, Christ and the Holy Ghost are not an amalgam asTrintarians believe, which is one unknowable being. Each is quite knowable just as the bible says. The bible does not support the fourth century notion of God's nature as described in the Nicene and Apostles Creeds. These are man's creation. God had nothing to do with them. Do I expect I have so profoundly expounded on these ideas that you or other readers are solidly convinced? No. But I have laid a legitimate foundation for them whether you accept them or not. Sorry to be so long winded.
In reading my previous to previous post, I meant to say we are NOT to be lax and we should be spreading the Gospel of Christ. In fact, we are commissioned to spread the Good News so all will hear the Good News.
We are to give the reason for the Hope that we have: "Christ in me, The Hope of Glory", when we confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord; that I'm a wretched sinner, deserving of God's Wrath and yet my Father, in mercy and kindness, even while I was His enemy, He died for me. I think that is what so changed my heart, to know that God would do such a thing for me.
The Holy Spirit is my teacher and (and yours if you let Him) and He will lead me into all truth, Jesus promised. He always keeps His Word!
bwb -cont.
-Even though there are different denominations, they are still of the same body. The problem with what the book of mormons expound is that it does not add to the Bible. It in fact contradicts. That is why the posters here do not regard LDS to be part of the body of Christ.
"When Christ returns to the earth, it will be glorious and recognized by all. But he is in charge and if he sees fit to appear to one boy in preparation of the restoration of his gospel, he certainly can do so. This was not his Second Coming, just the preparation for it."
- I am sorry bwb but when Christ died on the cross for you and me that was all that was needed in preparation for his second coming.
"Thanks so much for this correspondence. We don’t study other religious doctrines in our meetings. I had no idea until recently that Protestants/Evangelicals don’t regard us as fellow Christians, as we do them. It’s totally baffling (and sad), but fascinating."
-It is not that Christians hate the mormons as we don't. In fact we are called to love mormons. However, the teachings of the mormons is in contradiction to what protestants/evangelicals teach. You can't have two opposing teachings and believe they both are true. That would simply be covering one's eyes to the truth and welll a bit silly.
bwb- Been away from the forum a bit and just read your response.
"For example, the faith/works issue. The way you explain it, we seem to agree. Faith will manifest the works, I agree! We simply believe that part of the reason we are here on earth is to serve each other. To take care of the poor and needy. To be Christ’s hands, so to speak. Faith will inspire this, and this (service to others) helps us to stay focused on Christ because we are trying to be like Him. James said, “Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” So where is our disagreement?"
- I don't disagree on this part. A good tree will bear good fruit. The point I am trying to make is in order to receive salvation, one only needs to repent, accept Christ and ask for His forgiveness. Good works is not an addition to receiving salvation nor is works alone a criteria for receiving salvation. It is by the work that Christ has done in you. You can not do anything (as in works) to save yourself. It is only by Christ for His glory.
"As I have always understood, Protestant Christians believe that one only has to believe and accept Christ. But you seem to say that if we have no “works” than we never had faith to begin with, and this I totally agree with."
-No this is not what I am saying... I believe one only has to accept Christ and repent and ask for forgiveness. Period. No more no less. Now let's say I say I accepted Christ but CONTINUE to beat up people, cheat others, etc... this type of fruit (works) does not appear to show that my conversion was genuine.
"I cannot simply dismiss the million (billions?) of people, who never had a chance to accept Christ, being doomed to hell. Some of those people could be my ancestors. Or my future grandchild that may die in infancy. I cannot just think of myself, satisfied that I’m okay, because I was blessed to be exposed to Christianity. To me, this would be offensive to my Heavenly Father, who loves all His children equally."
-Yup you are right. God loves his creations so much he gave them free will. That means choices to obey Him and to disobey Him. But again I repeat, we should let God take care of issues like that. I am sure he is more than able to handle those situations himself. In the mean time, we are not to be lax and not spread the Gospel of CHRIST. The good news. The Book of Job is a good one to read concerning God and things happening to good people.
My own daughter at age 18 asked me to read The Book of Mormon, I allowed her to, because I knew that she was well read, and I wanted her to know what she believes and why she believes it.
Well, she was just about finished with the book, when I heard her laughing in her room. I asked her what was so funny. She said, "Mom, this book is pure fiction, she said the places and people in the Bible were quite real and we have the history to prove that. But these places and things in this book are not real."
My daughter was also a peer leader in Sunday School, so she was quite well read in her Bible too.
Jesus Christ is Holy, Satan is not holy in any shape or form. Jesus tells us he is the father of lies, and liars are in the list of those who are sinners. Jesus Christ never sinned, the sin of the world was placed on Him, but HE never sinned Himself! HE died so that we could have life, He paid the penalty that we could never pay.
Let's be clear on the origins of the Book of Mormons.
In 1823 Smith, then 17, saw the "angel" Moroni appear at his bedside and tell him of a book written on golden plates by former inhabitants (Native Americans). The plates were suppose to contain "the fullness of the everlasting gospel". Four years later, Smith "dug up" the plates and begain translating their "reformed Egyptian" writing with the help of two special stones called "Urim" and "Thummim". As Smith translated the plates, he sat behind a curtain, gazing into a hat, supposedly reading lines of the Book of Mormon as they appeared on the "seer stones", and dictating each line to a scribe outside the curtain.
It should be noted at this point that using a "seer stone" is also called "scrying", or "to read", is an occult practice still popular in contemporary witchcraft.
Despite Mormons denials of Smith's occult practices, evidence shows that in 1826 he was convicted of "glass looking", a misdemeanor at the time.
One question, if I may ask of a Mormon is this: Where are the 38 "might cities" located, and why can't we find any trace of them?
Satan first of was created as an angel, not a child of God. Angels are separate creatures from man. They are God's messengers. Satan chose to rebel against The Most High God and caused by his influence the fall of man. Satan is no brother of Jesus Christ. Satan in fact tried to destroy Jesus Christ, and thought he won when Jesus was crucified.
Because he is no equal to God, he didn't know about the plan of salvation, that CHRIST would arise from the grave and conquer DEATH!
The FAther is working out HIS plan of Salvation on this earth. I don't care one fig what other books man puts out there...The Word of GOD is enough for me!
Jesus Christ set this prisoner free, free from a world that is dead and headed for eternal fire!
I will take a verse from Paul, (a true Apostle of Jesus Christ) I just want to know Christ and HIM crucified.
Man's knowledge really gives me quite a headache! God simplified things and man confuses the whole issue. Always thinking it's about him; when it is all about JESUS CHRIST!!!!
It seems logical to me that God uses laws of the universe. Whether he created them or they are the natural outgrowth of things He set in motion doesn't matter. The bible does not tell us everything God does or did. I am not sure even the most dogmatic and doctrinair arch-conservative believer thinks differently. For example, the theory of parallel universes and string theory is not mentioned in the bible anywhere yet mathematically they appear to describe the universe in a way we never knew before.
"MICHIO KAKU (City University of New York): That there could be an infinite number of universes each with a different law of physics. Our Universe could be just one bubble floating in an ocean of other bubbles." http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/parallelunitrans.shtml.
Does that mean it exists as Dr. Kaku says? Who knows, but there is mathematical probability it does. If so, is there room in this new understanding for more knowledge of God's works? I think so. It only makes sense that whatever we find will fit neatly inside God's work and that it is in harmony with the gospel. We just don't know enough yet. But yet there are still some who hold that the earth is flat. How do you explain a round world to them especially if they will not listen.
How to Present Questions Concerning Mormron Doctrine to readership-
#1. Read the Book of Mormon so you have a foundation of what it is and is not. Use it as source material in fashioning questions. Do not cherry pick or take passages out of context. or use without foundation.
#2. Research other source material to compare and contrast both pro and con.
#3. Prepare cogent questions about subjecets you do not understand or with which you have found conflicts
#4. Submit them to Church headquarters in Salt Lake City along with a statement that you intend to present a story to your readers concerning Church doctrine and want the Church's position on those subjects. Quote the entire response. If it too long, ask for an edited version.
#5. Draw your conclusions from the information you sent to the church and on which you recieved a response. If you got no response, so state and draw your own conclusions. Keep the adverbs and hype to a minimum. Send a copy of your piece to whomever you spoke with at Church headquarters as a courtesy. Remember, your reputation and tinterigty as well as that of your publisher is at stake.
JLF and bwb,
bwb wrote "Please understand that we only worship ONE God. We worship and pray to the Father through, and in the name of, Jesus Christ. Christ is the one way to God, the Father. Yes, our doctrine refers to multiple gods in existance, but to us there is ONE. One God for this world. Just as multiple biological mothers exist on earth, but only one is MY mother.
You could say this is the crux of our problem with mormonism, that you have many gods, but one for this world. You see, we believe in ONE ETERNAL GOD, period. We do not believe we can aspire or work our way into being a god of any world in the future, but that there has only been and can only be one God for eternity. We understand you are confused about this, but there is no need to be. The Bible makes this very clear.
If you have not read the Book of Mormon and asked the Church for an explanation or for more information on subjects you do not understand, you do not know enough about Mormonism to comment. Failing to do so results in the gobbledygook you see in this column and subsequent non-LDS comments. Some, admittedly, ask legitimate questions which I and others have attempted to answer. But we are still just members and do not represent the church's official position although we get our information from curent sources. The others do not. I would not represent that I know enough about Catholicism or Judaism to make the kind of sweeping statements you see others here making about Momron doctrine. Phillips and others do not know enough to comment. Taking odd bits of this and that from hundred year-old sources without context, without corroboration and without foundation is just plain decieptful and dishonest. But yet, that is precisely what The Christian Post has allowed. They should know better, even if Phillips does not.
To BWB:
You said: "Your doctrine is confusing and vague to me. I don’t even understand what you are saying."
Dear one, this much we know.
However, without using any other books except His Word, let me try to shed some of His light on the subject. See, for Christians, His Word is all we need. We don't even consider any other books that attempt to explain it for us. We do that ourselves. This is why Lutheran broke from Catholicism, as they were attempting to prevent self-interpretation. They wanted you to follow God in their way, not God's way.
See John, 10, 25-31
Jesus answered to them, I speak to you, and ye believe not; the works that I do in the name of my Father, bear witnessing of me the works that I do in the name of my Father, these bear witness of me. But ye believe not, for ye be not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give to them everlasting life, and they shall not perish without end, and none shall snatch them out of mine hand. And I shall give to them everlasting life, and they shall not perish into without end, and any man shall not snatch them out of mine hand. That thing that my Father gave to me, is more than all things That thing that my Father gave to me, is more than all; and no man may snatch from my Father's hand. I and the Father be one. The Jews took up stones, to stone him.
Two things you should notice BWB, the last two sentences. "I and the Father be one". They are not separate entities, from the lips of Jesus Himself. The last sentence, "The Jews took up stones, to stone him.". Blasphemy would have gotten you killed in those days, and if He didn't claim to be one with The Father, then why would they have attempted to kill him. He didn't just claim to be a child of God, he claimed to BE God.
That takes care of Jesus, now how about the Holy Spirit.
There are many, many examples, and there is not enough room here to even begin to list them all, but here's a few:
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go ye, and teach all folks, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
BWB, you will notice that it says "name", not "names". The name of the Father, not the names of God. This implies one, not many.
Hebrews 10, 15-16.
And the Holy Ghost witnesseth to us; for after that he said [forsooth afterward he said],
This is the testament, which I shall witness to them after those days, the Lord saith [saith the Lord], in giving my laws in the hearts of them, and in the souls of them I shall above write them;
Beloved, you see the first sentence, it says the Holy Ghost witnesseth to us. If you read the rest to see what He is witnessing to them, you see Him talk about giving His laws, and I shall write them. You don't see Holy Spirit witness about the Father's laws, and Jesus' love, you see My love, and My laws.
Source: Wycliffe.
Hokey, Don't you have better things to do than search out and read negative literature about another faith? I doubt you researched these obscure quotes yourself, rather you have some inflamatory tract written by someone equally negative and destructive as yourself. You don't strive to learn, just ridicule and tear down. This is pathetic behavior. The LDS church does so much good all over the world and produces wonderful people, but let's ignore all that and dig up the negative-seeming, obscure and out-of-context quotes of many years ago.
Brigham Young, second LDS Prophet, said, "Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the Moon?... When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question about it; it was not made in vain" (J. of D., Vol. XIII, p. 271). Young also said, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture" (Ibid., p. 95). This "scripture" about men on the moon as well as the sun by Brigham Young ought to raise eyebrows about Brigham Young's inspired messages.
Oliver B. Huntington, a devout LDS contemporary of Joseph Smith, said that Smith taught, "The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being six feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker style and are quite general in style or fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally; near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph (Smith) the Seer, and he could see whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see" (Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, Vol. II, p. 166). That is not what the astronauts found when they went to the moon!
Hokey, I don’t know about Quakers and inhabiting the moon or sun, or home planets. You see, we know very little about these things because this is not what we focus on. It’s just not important now. Ask me about charity, repentance, faith, the atonement, prayer, testimony, service, integrity, scriptures, kindness, humility, etc., and I can better answer your questions because this is what we focus on. Obscure subjects that you dwell on are just not worth the time.
JC, Your doctrine is confusing and vague to me. I don’t even understand what you are saying.
God is not capable of creation? He created this world, the universe. He is also our father and we are his children. I don’t know the process by which that happens, just that we are his children. He created us.
You combine the Father and Christ and the Holy Ghost into one entity which sometimes is separate and sometimes combined. Where does this come from? It’s confusion to any rational mind. The truth is simple and beautiful and clear.
bwb,
Wasn't it Joseph Smith who said Quaker like people inhabit the moon? And Brigham Young who said they also inhabit the sun?
bwb,
If heavenly Father and heavenly Mother are exalted people, where did they come from? Did they have a home planet?
To BWB:
Dear one, why are you attempting to take God's power and majesty away from Him? You say that you have a heavenly mother, but don't know her name. When you claim this, you say that God is not capable of creation. The Bible, His Word, clearly states otherwise. When you say this, you are saying that He doesn't have the power to create, only procreate. Beloved, you can't have it both ways. One is truth, the other is not. There can not be more than one truth, this is illogical.
When God said "Let Us create ...", He was not talking to a wife or family, He was talking to Himself. He addressed the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, Himself. This is how we are created also.
Ever heard the expression "things always happens in 3's". Ever wonder why? Our entire existence is based on this, it's the way we are made, and the way we see things.
Hokey, Yes, where there is a father, there is a mother. We know nothing about her. Why? We don’t know. Maybe God didn’t want her name casually used and desecrated as his has been. Just the mention of a Heavenly Mother has brought up horrendous accusations that Mormons believe that heaven is full of sexual orgies. This is extremely offensive to us. We know we have a Mother in Heaven, but that is all.
Please understand that we only worship ONE God. We worship and pray to the Father through, and in the name of, Jesus Christ. Christ is the one way to God, the Father. Yes, our doctrine refers to multiple gods in existance, but to us there is ONE. One God for this world. Just as multiple biological mothers exist on earth, but only one is MY mother.
Nerohdam,
I really appreciate the time you took to answer my questions. However, I still don’t understand. For example, the faith/works issue. The way you explain it, we seem to agree. Faith will manifest the works, I agree! We simply believe that part of the reason we are here on earth is to serve each other. To take care of the poor and needy. To be Christ’s hands, so to speak. Faith will inspire this, and this (service to others) helps us to stay focused on Christ because we are trying to be like Him. James said, “Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” So where is our disagreement? James also said, “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” As I have always understood, Protestant Christians believe that one only has to believe and accept Christ. But you seem to say that if we have no “works” than we never had faith to begin with, and this I totally agree with.
I cannot simply dismiss the million (billions?) of people, who never had a chance to accept Christ, being doomed to hell. Some of those people could be my ancestors. Or my future grandchild that may die in infancy. I cannot just think of myself, satisfied that I’m okay, because I was blessed to be exposed to Christianity. To me, this would be offensive to my Heavenly Father, who loves all His children equally.
Christ obviously organized a church. He chose and ordained 12 apostles (Mark 3:14, John 15:16). He showed how baptism was to be done. He organized prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers “for the work of the ministry” . . . “till we all come in the unity of the faith” . . .”till we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Ephesians 4: 11-14). It doesn’t’ sound like minor doctrines don’t matter, as long as the major aspects are there. “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” (Ephesians 4:5) This says to me that Christ set up one specific church, with no confusion. A church with authority, through ordination, to act in Christ’s name.
When Christ was born in humble circumstances and grew up as the son of a carpenter, he was not recognized by the Jews. They expected a king. They wanted someone to free them from the Romans. They didn’t understand that his mission reached far beyond this life. Their expectations were not met, therefore they rejected him. When Christ returns to the earth, it will be glorious and recognized by all. But he is in charge and if he sees fit to appear to one boy in preparation of the restoration of his gospel, he certainly can do so. This was not his Second Coming, just the preparation for it.
Thanks so much for this correspondence. We don’t study other religious doctrines in our meetings. I had no idea until recently that Protestants/Evangelicals don’t regard us as fellow Christians, as we do them. It’s totally baffling (and sad), but fascinating.
bwb,
LDS teaches about Heavenly Father, what is the LDS teaching about Heavenly Mother? Is there such a god?
God is only one among many Gods?
Joseph Smith said, “I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the elders for fifteen years” (Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.35).
Brigham Young, the second president of the LDS Church, once stated,
“How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity. You cannot comprehend this; but when you can, it will be to you a matter of great consolation” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:334, October 8, 1859).
However, Isaiah 44:6,8 tells us that the God of the Bible knows of no other Gods. “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God…Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any.”
bwb cont. -
"Why are Christians comfortable with the differences between Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbytarian, etc. doctrines? Doesn’t it matter which one is completely correct?"
-Even though there are different denominations of the Church, the difference are minor. I once had a problem with this as well but some one once told me major on the majors and minor on the minors. The major aspect of these denominations is that they believe that Christ died on the cross for our sins, the Holy Trinity of 3 in 1, Christ rose on the 3rd day and ascended to heaven and a few other points I am sure I missed. The minor parts would be issues like water baptism. Water baptism is not going to give you salvation but for denominations like the Baptist, full body submersion is important.
"Why would Christ organize a specific church then accept all the different doctrines of Christianity today? If God and Jesus did appear to a 14 year old boy, and brought forth new scriptures with another witness of Christ, wouldn’t that be the greatest news ever?"
-It would be great news if Jesus came back to earth; however, Christ stated in the Bible he will not appear until His second coming. This will not be a quiet moment but will come forth like a heavenly parade. The Bible warns of listening to people saying Jesus is here and Jesus is there. No he will come with a loud entrance from the Heavens. And I guess that is why people have a problem of a boy and only that boy receiving additional gospels from Jesus. The difference with Christ first coming was there were thousands of people to witness the wonders of Christ. With LDS, there was only 1 person and no witnesses. Do you think Christ would keep his gift a secret?
i hope this answers some of your questions bwb. I appreciate your sincerity.
bwb cont. -
"Why do other Christians think we (LDS) put all merit on our works? We agree with James. Works are important because they manifest our faith" "
- Actually the faith will manifest the good works. It is due to the baptiism of the Holy Spirit that compells us to do mighty works to honor God. Thus the fruit of the Spirit.
"but we cannot be saved without the grace of Christ. Without Christ and his atonement, we are flat out doomed. We can do good deeds all day long, but for no avail without grace. Why do we continually have to clarify that?"
-Because of the statement you previously made saying the works manifest the Spirit. It is the other way around. The Spirit produces the works.
"Do you believe that baptism is essential, as it states in the New Testament? Is this part of accepting Christ, or do you just proclaim it somehow?"
-There are various topics due to the 12 disciples having to wait for the Spiritual baptism but they have to wait for Christ to ascend to heaven so he could send the counselor. But my understanding is that when you sincerely repent(turn away from) of your sins, accept Christ in your heart and ask for forgiveness then you are INSTANTLY baptized by the Spirit. You are born again. The Spirit makes a dwelling in your heart. Now you may be thinking of water baptism. This is more of a public statement and I highly encourage it but is not a absolute for salvation, again this point is debated among Christians.
"What if you accept Christ, then commit sin, such as adultery? Does that mean you haven’t really accepted Christ? How do you know when you really have?"
-Once you sincerely accept Christ then you are saved. Period. A lot of people have the misconception that sin is completely removed and you will not sin ever again. No..you will stumble but you sincerely ask for forgiveness once again. Repent. This means no more HABITUAL sin. Turn away from the pornography. And if you have problems with your habitual sin then ask God to help you. Join a small group of believers to help hold you accountable.
"What happens to someone who never had a chance to learn of and accept Christ?"
-This used to bother me to as it upset me to think that people would be damned just because they did not hear the message of Christ. I finally learned to let God handle this. God is concerned about you. You have heard the message of Christ. How are you going to respond? Again, let God be God and let Him worry about others. You and I have enough to take care of making sure we are right with God.
JFL - I don't wonder about these things as my faith is in Jesus Christ through His gift on the cross for my sins. As for reading the B of M, the Bible already talks to my heart. It is the Living Word. If I read the B of M it would be more or less an intellectual exercise as the Bible gives my daily bread.
bwb - "Nerohdam, Mormons are usually put in the defensive position. "
-You are right the Mormons are put on the defensive as this a Christian web forum as I would expect to be put on the defensive on a Mormon forum.
"What artifacts are there that show the Bible is still in it’s original form?"
-I would recommend that you read Lee Stroebels "Case for Christ" It has a lot of historical evidence instances to back up the historical validity of the Bible. Until then, I will tell you that the Bible is the oldest historical document on the face of the earth based upon archeological findings. ie dead sea scroll .
"Where is Christ’s body now? There’s no mention of it being reburied or returned to the tomb."
-The physical body of Christ is sitting at the right hand of God in heaven. There is no physical body here on earth as it was resurrected after He was laid in the tomb. He rose on the 3rd day. He visited his 12 disciples and ascended to heaven. After his ascension, He sent the Spirit to the disciples and they were baptized by the Spirit. The only time Jesus will visit the earth again is in his second coming. That time has not happened. - If the body of Jesus Christ was ever discovered here on earth then all Christians would have nothing. Christianity would be a scam. As CS Lewis we would be the biggest fools in the world.
"Do you really believe Christ was praying to his Father in Heaven? Or are Christ, the Father, and the Holy Ghost one being, which says he was praying to himself? Or did they join up somehow after the resurrection? Why is the concept of 3 separate beings rejected by traditional Christians? "
- I admit I have a hard time understanding the 3 in 1 concept myself. But as far as I can understand, Jesus the Son was praying to God the Father in heaven. They are 3 separate entities yet at the same time they are 1. It is kind of like a car that has a motor, transmission and body. Without one part it is not a car but at the same time the parts are unique but it is still part of the car to make it a car. I know it is a lousy example but it the best I can come up with at the moment without waving you off with a mysterious answer.
"(By the way, the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are two names for the same being. We agree on that one, contrary to Rob Phillips’ Mormonism/Bible comparison.)"
- I agree
http://www.mrm.org/topics/introductory-issues/were-christians-just-you
“We're Christians just like you!”
By Bill McKeever
When speaking to our Mormon friends about religious issues, it is not uncommon to hear them tell us, “We’re Christians just like you.” There could be many reasons for a response like this. Perhaps the Mormon with whom you are speaking does not really understand what Christians have believed over the centuries, or it could be that they are not really familiar with the positions of their own church. It could be that because both groups share a desire to live moral lives that this qualifies them as “Christian.” However, this conclusion is refuted by the fact that many religions emphasize wholesome living as a part of their beliefs. Christianity, as a religious faith, is known by its teachings (doctrine) and not necessarily by the behavior of its adherents (though we certainly hope that a Christian’s faith is reflected in their practice).
One thing we have found in most cases is it is very rare for the average Latter-day Saint to fully explain the unique teachings of Mormonism. In the LDS Church it is taught that milk must be given before meat. Since many Mormons know that some of their unique teachings will be questioned by their evangelical acquaintances, they often give an explanation of the LDS faith that is less than precise.
READ THE REST OF THIS ARTICLE AT THE LINK AT THE TOP OF THIS POST.
Beloved, don't be fooled by Mormonism. They say they are of Christ, but many in the end days will say "Lord, Lord, did we not....".
A cult, by definition, is a distortion of Christianity. According to Christian theology, there are five items which define a cult, and one only has to meet the requirements of just one of the five to be considered a cult. They are:
1. An extra/alternate book. This can be said of many cults, Jehovah's Witness, Mormonism, etc. The Bible is not good enough, or doesn't say enough, or doesn't explain enough, or doesn't..., or doesn't..., etc. on and on. It can't be interpreted by some, so it must be explained by others. The reasons are numerous, and all equally false.
2. Diety of Christ. Mormonism definitely fall into this category, as they have a problem with the diety of Jesus. They say that His brother is the evil one, and that He and the Father are not one. Mormonism isn't the only one either.
3. Resurrection of Christ. This one is obvious. Islam talks about this in their Quran, but they say that Judas was put in Jesus' place at the last moment, and that it really wasn't Jesus like everybody thought.
4. Salvation by faith. Cults teach that the blood of Jesus was not good enough, and that it was only good up to the point of coming to Jesus, afterwards it must be earned through works and not faith.
5. Militancy. A cult can attempt to get their message across through militant action.
Now remember, an organization only has to meet one of the five above criteria to be defined as a cult. Only one. Mormonism meets more than one.
Beloved, can you name the only religion that meets all five of the above criteria? If you guessed Islam, you are absolutely correct. They exhibit all five characteristics, and are a very deadly foe.
Let's examine the above article on how well the author makes his arguments.
For every statement attributed to the Bible, the author gives a summary of a belief. Most beliefs have a Biblical reference, some do not.
For every statement attributed to Mormonism, the author gives a an exact quote, and cites the reference.
Obviously this is a tactic to slant the reader's judgement against Mormonism. If the author truly wanted the reader to judge for himself, he would have given exact quotes from the bible. As it is, he is interpreting passages from the Bible. I am not disagreeing with his interpretions, but he is not giving the reader the same exact information that he read to come to his conclusions.
If you give your opinions based on facts, then present the facts. If you belief this is all a statement of fact, then read it again, and answer the question: why was the Bible not quoted exactly? How can this be a statement of fact when the facts are not presented?
Furthermore, each statement on Mormonism belief is taken out of context and is not representative of the whole of Mormon belief on each of those topics.
For clarity, I respect the author's opinion, and his right to express it. But in the future, if you are going to right an article about your opinion, there are great resources on how to write opinions effectively.
Here are some helpful tips for the future:
http://susq-town.org/byer/New%20Reading%20Themes/how_to_write_an_opinion.htm
http://www.unausa.org/site/pp.asp?c=fvKRI8MPJpF&b=2029487
Nerohdam
You don't have to wonder about these things. You can find out for yourself. If you have not read the Book of Mormon, I encourage you to do so. Why is that important? Because if you do so with a sincere desire to know if it is true, keeping an open mind (you can't teach those who will not hear) believing in God., you will get your answer. Once you get that confirmation from the Holy Ghost a whole lot of these other things will start to make sense. You will understand many of the things you do not understand now. We can explain all this stuff but it still won't make much impact until you get your own testamony. And I can't give that to you. Only God can. I think you will find that the hand that wrote the B of M is the same hand behind the writing of the Bible. All this other stuff is a distraction. This is your inheritance. It is part of the inheritance of Christ which Christians can partake. It is Christ's gospel which has been on the earth since the days of Adam. There is so much more that your Heavenly Father wants for you than you could ever have thought. He will open up the understanding of all His works, who He is, who you really are and what lays in store for you if you are faithful. But you must start at the beginning. You can't run until you learn to walk. Reading the B of M is like putting your running shoes on. Personal revelation tailored just for you comes quickly. In fact it is like standing under a shower. There is so much of it you can't take it all in. As long as you continue live the principles of the Gospel you will never stop learning. The more you grow the more your love for the Savior and Heavenly Father grows and the closer you get to them
bwb,
You need to watch this video.
http://goodnewsforlds.com/
Nerohdam, Mormons are usually put in the defensive position. Now I have some questions:
What artifacts are there that show the Bible is still in it’s original form?
Where is Christ’s body now? There’s no mention of it being reburied or returned to the tomb.
Do you really believe Christ was praying to his Father in Heaven? Or are Christ, the Father, and the Holy Ghost one being, which says he was praying to himself? Or did they join up somehow after the resurrection? Why is the concept of 3 separate beings rejected by traditional Christians? (The quote about “being one” is so easily explained.)
(By the way, the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are two names for the same being. We agree on that one, contrary to Rob Phillips’ Mormonism/Bible comparison.)
Why do other Christians think we (LDS) put all merit on our works? We agree with James. Works are important because they manifest our faith, but we cannot be saved without the grace of Christ. Without Christ and his atonement, we are flat out doomed. We can do good deeds all day long, but for no avail without grace. Why do we continually have to clarify that?
Do you believe that baptism is essential, as it states in the New Testament? Is this part of accepting Christ, or do you just proclaim it somehow? What if you accept Christ, then commit sin, such as adultery? Does that mean you haven’t really accepted Christ? How do you know when you really have?
What happens to someone who never had a chance to learn of and accept Christ?
Why are Christians comfortable with the differences between Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbytarian, etc. doctrines? Doesn’t it matter which one is completely correct? Why would Christ organize a specific church then accept all the different doctrines of Christianity today?
If God and Jesus did appear to a 14 year old boy, and brought forth new scriptures with another witness of Christ, wouldn’t that be the greatest news ever?
I could go on and on, but this will have to do for now.
Thanks in advance for your answers. I’ve been wondering this for a long time.
bwb - in regard to the different levels of heaven, we will have to agree to disagree.
Regard the following statements:
"But what if traditional Christianity is not the pure doctrine as Christ taught, but deluted and altered down through the centuries, since the days of the apostles."
- The interesting thing is we have historical artifacts to support that the Bible did not change since the days of the apostles. Unfortunately for LDS, we lack quite a bit of historical documentation as well as the famed gold bars. In essence the gold bars are the pillar of LDS. For Christianity the lack of a body is our pillar.
"What if Christ really does have a tangible body of flesh and bone that He emphasized to his apostles after the resurrection?"
Chirst did have a tangible body. God was flesh and after his resurrection it was still flesh as some of his disciples touched the wounds of Jesus.
"What if Christ wasn’t praying to himself the many times in His life and was really praying to his Father in Heaven, a separate being."
-Ummm... he was praying to the Father. Abba means father...
"What if James was telling the truth when he said faith without works is dead?"
- James was stating that as a result of accepting the gift of Christ, we are compelled to do good works. Good works are a fruit or result of having Christ in your life. HOWEVER the good works does not bring salvation. Only the acceptance of Christ. I know that mormons believe good works brings a higher level of "holiness" but no. Again good works are a outward manifestation of receiving the Spirit but works does not get one to heaven. It is nothing we do but what God does.
"if you consider the whole Bible and not just parts here and there."
-If you read the Bible you will see the old testament repeats the new testament. Basically repent (turn away from) your sins and accept the free gift given by God. It is one simple message with examples, love stories and instructions for living life according to God's desire.
Hokey, We do have parts of the Bible that have been corrected by Joseph Smith, but it's kept separate from the King James Version. It's used for reference and clarification at times, but the Bible is not altered or changed in any way by the LDS church. We have the same Bible as the rest of the world.
JC, I agree, enough is enough with the inaccurate versions of Mormon history and doctrine. The verses in Galatians are brought up over and over. First of all, Joseph Smith was first visited by God, the Father, and Jesus Christ. The angel Moroni came later. Nothing was mentioned about the Bible at that time, nor later, as I recall. You can look all this up on lds.org.
Traditional Christians always assume, as they have the right to, that theirs is the correct doctrine and anything else is false. But what if traditional Christianity is not the pure doctrine as Christ taught, but deluted and altered down through the centuries, since the days of the apostles. What if theirs is the “other “ or false gospel?
What if Christ really does have a tangible body of flesh and bone that He emphasized to his apostles after the resurrection? What if Christ wasn’t praying to himself the many times in His life and was really praying to his Father in Heaven, a separate being. What if James was telling the truth when he said faith without works is dead?
Do you see our position? LDS doctrine fits beautifully with the Bible, if you consider the whole Bible and not just parts here and there. Of course the Bible has many interpretations, hence the many religious creeds and sects. But one interpretation, among the many, has got to be correct, and this confusion is settled with the help of the Book of Mormon.
bwb,
Can you explain to me why the LDS don't use Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible? After all he was the first prophet, seer, and revelator. And wasn't he commanded to translate the bible?
Nerhohdam, We use the King James Version. There are three degrees of heaven. (This is also mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:40-41) I’m including direct quotes from Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants:
(The Telestial Kingdom)
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
(The Terrestrial Kingdom)
And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
(The Celestial Kingdom)
92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;
93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever.
94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;
95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.
Here's some great information about the false religion of Mormonism from my website.
follow the link, then scroll down....
http://www.streetreach.com/Seminars.html
Michael
Enough is enough.
For Christians, the Bible is the indisputed Word of God. He and His word are one in the same.
Therefore, with that logic, it should be easy to see if something is real or not by using His word as a guide. Okay, let's do it.
Joseph Smith was apparently given a vision by an "angel" called Moroni. He was told that his way of thinking was going to be the last bastion of Christianity that would hold until the end of days. He was told that the Bible had been corrupted by the Catholics and it was no longer to be trusted. He therefore was "given" another book, which is now called "The Book of Mormon".
Okay, now from a Christianity point of view:
A house divided against itself cannot stand, Jesus said this Himself. Therefore, if we look at what the Bible says about what Joseph Smith "received", we see that the house of Mormon will not stand.
Galatians 1:8 & 9 (KJV)
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Since Joseph Smith said that he was told that the Bible had been corrupted by the Catholics, I will also reference the Wycliff Bible, which was not used by the Catholics. They used the Bishop's Bible, which was then translated into the King James Version.
From Wycliff:
But though we, or an angel of heaven, preached to you, besides that that we have preached to you, be he accursed. But though we, or an angel of heaven, evangelize to you, besides that that we have evangelized to you, cursed be he. As I have said before, and now again I say, if any man preach to you besides that that ye have received, be he accursed if any shall evangelize except that that ye have taken, cursed be he.
Just to make sure, from the Darby translation:
But if even we or an angel out of heaven announce as glad tidings to you anything besides what we have announced as glad tidings to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, now also again I say, If any one announce to you as glad tidings anything besides what ye have received, let him be accursed.
God's word and the Mormon religion are at complete odds with each other. What would this logically suggest?
http://www.truthregardless.com/mormonism.shtml
The Joseph Smith Translation (JST) of the Bible includes prophecy about Joseph and the Book of Mormon.
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech12b.htm
In his "inspired revision" Joseph Smith even indicated that the book of Genesis originally contained a prophecy concerning the Book of Mormon and that his own name was mentioned there. Over 800 words were added into Genesis 50:24. In this large interpolation we find the following:
"And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father...."
The reader will notice that the "choice seer" was to be "called Joseph.... after the name of his father." Joseph Smith was obviously referring to himself, for his father's name was Joseph.
bwb, I honestly don't know too much about LDS so please be patient.
1) What are the different degrees of heaven?
2) What is the point of knowing Christ if all it takes is to lead a good life. Especially in the light that those who do not know Christ but lead a good life will not go to hell?
Again the spirit of this message is not to antagonize but one of curiosity. Thank you.
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims3.htm
MORMONISM'S INSPIRED VERSION BIBLE
According to the D.H.C., Vol. I, pp. 324 and 368, and Times and Seasons, Vol. VI, p. 802, Joseph Smith completed a translation of the Bible. Those sources and Andrew Jensen's LDS Church Chronology show that the New Testament was finished February 2, 1833, and the Old Testament on July 2, 1833. In a revelation given on January 10, 1832, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are commanded to "continue the work of translation until it is finished" (D. & C. 73:4). Obviously this was not talking about the B. of M. which was published in 1830. Nor could it be talking about the Book of Abraham Papyrus which Joseph Smith saw for the first time on July 3, 1835 (D.H.C., Vol. II, p. 235). Furthermore, Joseph Smith was commanded by God in D. & C. 124:89 to "publish the new translation of my holy word unto the inhabitants of the earth" (see also D. & C. 94:10 and 104:58).
In spite of these commands in LDS scripture the LDS Church never published the Inspired Version of the Bible until 1979. According to LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, the reason it was not published is that "...This inspired revision of the ancient scriptures was never completed by the Prophet" (M.D., p. 383). If that is true, Joseph Smith was a very disobedient Prophet because he was commanded to finish it (D. & C. 73:4) and publish it (D. & C. 124:89)! As previously mentioned, Smith himself claimed he did complete it, but it had not been published at the time of his death in 1844. When he was killed, the manuscript went to his wife who never accepted Brigham Young as the successor to her husband. Her son Joseph III later became the Prophet of the Reorganized LDS Church and published the new translation for the Reorganized LDS Church for the first time in 1867. Many LDS people have used the RLDS edition, but it has never been officially endorsed by the LDS Church because they did not trust the "apostate" Reorganized LDS Church. The ninth printing of the 1944 edition entitles it the Inspired Version The Holy Scriptures. Below that title it says "A New Corrected Edition." On p. 3 of the Preface, we read: "As concerning the manner of translation and correction, it is evident, that from the manuscripts and the testimony of those who were conversant with the facts that it was done by direct revelation from God."
If the inspired translation was done by direct revelation and yet needed correction by revelation, will the revealed corrections need to be corrected by further revelation? Why couldn't God reveal it correctly the first time? And why is about 90% of it a copy of the King James Version if that translation is as bad as LDS leaders have claimed it is? Since 1979, the King James Bibles published by the LDS Church have most of the Inspired Version in the footnotes and appendix, but they call it the Joseph Smith Translation or the "JST."
One of the LDS charges against the Bible is that many books have been lost. Talmage lists 20 "lost books" of the Bible, which include "The Book of the Covenant (Ex. 24:7); Books of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14); Book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13)," and so on (A. of F., p. 501). Even if all 20 of these books are mentioned in the Bible, does that prove they were intended to be books of the Bible? If so, Epicurean and Stoic philosophy should be included also since the Apostle Paul quotes it in Acts 17:18 and 28. Just because some writing is mentioned in the Bible does not prove that everything in that document is supposed to be part of the Bible! One would expect the Inspired Version to contain the "lost books" which LDS claim make our Bible incomplete. But, not a single "lost book" has been replaced in the Inspired Version or in any other LDS book of scripture. In fact, the Inspired Version only has 65 books because Joseph Smith deleted the Song of Solomon!
Are the "mistranslations" which LDS claim are in the Bible corrected in the Inspired Version? One good example is in Is. 65:1, "I am found of them who seek after me, I give unto them that ask of me; I am not found of them that sought me not; or that inquireth not after me."
Paul quoted this verse in Rom. 10:20, but in Joseph Smith's translation it says: "But Esaias is very bold and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." Smith's "inspiration" speaks for itself!
The Inspired Version prophesies the coming of Joseph (Smith) in Gen. 50:24-33. But, you do not need to look beyond Gen. 1:1 to see that this is no ordinary Bible. Other texts that did not fit Smith's doctrine were changed so that they did fit. For example, Ex. 33:20 says, "Thou canst not see my face and live." But, the Inspired Version says, "Thou canst not see my face at this time. John 1:18 says, "No man hath seen God at any time." But, the Inspired Version says, "and no man hath seen God at any time except he hath borne record of the Son" (John 1:19). I John 4:12 says, "No man hath seen God at any time," but the Inspired Version adds, "except them who believe." Since Joseph Smith claimed that he saw God and Christ in 1820, he made the Bible conform to his teachings! Smith changed hundreds of verses in his Inspired Version, but not one change can be substantiated by the original manuscripts!
Thus, the charge against the Bible made by LDS Apostle Mark E. Peterson certainly fits Joseph Smith's Bible! He said, "Many insertions were made, some of them slanted for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate fabrications were perpetrated" (As Translated Correctly, p. 4).
bwb, do you use the KJV or the JST of the Bible?
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith... every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim--'Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!' But it is true." - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
Nerohdam, 1. One gets to heaven by being the best one knows how to be. We believe there are different degrees in heaven (Corinthians 15:40-41) and the heaven that traditional Christians expect will be the one they reach. No good, honorable person, who has never been exposed to Christ, will be sent to hell. That is not the way of a loving and fair God.
2. What do you mean by salvation? If you mean being saved from death through resurrection, then salvation comes to all men through the atonement of Christ. Attaining the highest degree of heaven comes through a combination of obedience to God’s commandments*, ordinances such as baptism, and ultimately grace. There is no salvation of any kind without Jesus Christ. *James 2:17-26
2. Joseph Smith is revered as a prophet of God. Just as we revere Moses, Elijah, Peter, etc. None of them are Gods, nor were they perfect men (Christ was the only perfect being) and none of them are above Christ. Joseph Smith was the first prophet of the latter days and it was through him that the gospel was restored to the earth. We have a prophet today who may say something slightly differently today than one of a century ago, and we follow the current prophet. Revelation is ongoing and pertinent to today.
bwb said;
"Hokey, I've never considered which of the books of scripture has the most authority. We honestly don't see any conflict between them (I know, this drives you crazy), therefore the question never comes up. I'd have to say we hold them all at equal authority."
bwb if the LDS believe their four scriptures have equal authority then why would there be an LDS phrase "We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly?
Hokey, I've never considered which of the books of scripture has the most authority. We honestly don't see any conflict between them (I know, this drives you crazy), therefore the question never comes up. I'd have to say we hold them all at equal authority.
So I ask those of the LDS crowd since you know LDS teachings, 1) How does one get to heaven?
2) Is salvation based upon works? 3) Is Joseph Smith to be revered?
Bearing false witness of another does not always mean a conscious choice to lie. It can be failing to find out what the facts are before telling a story about someone else. It can mean taking things out of context. In discussing what Mormons believe it can be using century old ideas from long dead people and portraying them as what the Church believes and practices today when in fact it may not. There is no way of asking the dead what they meant when they put their ideas to paper or gave a speech or commented casually to some one else. You can’’t know whether what was said or written or heard was was taken out of context or if there is anything that would alter old notions or ideas. You can’t ask a dead writer whether he still believes what he wrote as a young man or if age and wisdom made him think differently. You can’t ask a dead prophet whether what he said was doctrine or just a notion he had. These are all courtesies honest commentators would give the living today without thinking twice about it.
The LDS Church has long held that the only authorized version of any principle, doctrine or teaching must come from the Church itself. Given that the dead don’t talk for the living, except in canonized scripture, honest writers and commentators on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints should ask the Church for comments or input before making claims about what we teach or believe. If they don’t they risk bearing false witness. Such is what has been presented above. The writer took articles from people who are long dead and from a different era. These people had different ideas about how the world worked. In some cases, they were the persecuted remnants of a people who were savaged by their fellow citizens and the government itself. Even when presenting comments from recent leaders, responcible commentators should call the Church headquarters, identify themselves and what they intend to do. They should asked if the Church wants to explain or modilfy anything that the writer is about to present as fact. If he fails to do so, the writer risks presenting readers with a hodge-podge of ill-informed, mischarachterized non-facts often taken out of context and without foundation. All we ask is that you hold us accountable for what we actually believe not what we don't believe.
To do a real comparison we have to compare exclusive LDS scripture with that of the Bible. If we looked at the statements of orthodox Christians from 150 years ago and compared them with the Bible I wonder what we would find?
Hokey,
Thanks for the update and continue to share the true gospel.
Online4Him,
Living Hope Ministries is now producing a video dealing with the reliability of the bible. The LDS question the bible's reliability. LHM has spent 6 months in Israel filming. Check it out on this link:
http://www.sourceflix.com/
"The Bible vs the Book of Mormon" is a great video.
Christians need to support LHM because they put all their videos online for free. These productions are well made and are not cheap to make. Checkout LHM's website.
http://www.lhvm.org/vid_bible_med.htm
The Bible vs The Book of Mormon - DVD - by Living Hope Ministries, Brigham City, UT 84302 (www.lhvm.org). This DVD compares what the Bible and the Book of Mormon teach; it is a great resource to share with the LDS's.
Joseph Smith made statements about the Book of Mormon (BOM); "It is the most correct book ever written" and the BOM "contains the fullness of the gospel." With these two statements I would assume that most of not all LDS believe the BOM has more authority than the Bible.
http://www.mrm.org/topics/book-mormon/dna-and-book-mormon-record
The above link is to a teaching by Bill McKeever with the title " DNA and the Book of Mormon Record".