Megachurch Aims to 'Disturb' Christians

By Michelle Vu|Christian Post Reporter

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Saddleback Church’s AIDS summit kicked off Wednesday with hopes to “disturb” the hearts of those in attendance and mobilize congregations around the world to defeat the global pandemic.

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(Photo: Saddleback Church / Deb Griffith)
Kay Warren, co-host of the third annual Global Summit on AIDS and the Church, speaks at the conference at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., on Wednesday, Nov. 28, 2007.

The third annual Global Summit on AIDS and the Church has attracted about 1,000 people to the southern California megachurch to learn how churches and individuals can help fight the deadly killer.

“This is the one place you can talk about AIDS to your heart’s content,” said Kay Warren, co-host of the Nov. 28-30 summit, according to the Orange County Register. “You’re going to hear things you don’t agree with and you may find you’re at polar opposites with a speaker … but we can’t stop AIDS unless we come together.

“I have a goal to mess with your comfortable world,” said Warren, who founded the AIDS ministry at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif. “I want your heart to be seriously disturbed.”

Kay Warren, wife of Saddleback’s founding pastor Rick Warren, was disturbed five years ago from her comfortable life as a “white suburban mom with a minivan” when she read a magazine article that stated more than 12 million children in Africa were orphaned by AIDS, according to Reuters.

Since then, the Warrens have launched what is thought to be the only global HIV/AIDS conference built entirely around a grassroots church-based strategy.

“The Bible commands the church to care for widows and orphans,” Rick Warren said Wednesday at the summit. “With 143 million orphans in the world, I’d say that we have plenty of opportunity to make good on that mandate and demonstrate the love of Christ to children who have nothing to lose but hope. And we should never discount the power of hope.”

The HIV/AIDS initiative at Saddleback is a key part of Rick Warren’s P.E.A.C.E. plan, a humanitarian strategy launched three years ago. The goal of the worldwide effort is to mobilize one billion church members to Promote reconciliation, Equip servant leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick and Educate the next generation.

A session at the summit will feature a report about the P.E.A.C.E. plan progress and the lessons learned over the past three years after sending out more than 7,500 members to test the plan in 69 countries.

“One of the most exciting things about this third conference is that we actually have progress to report,” Kay Warren said, according to a summit report. “The first conference was about casting a vision; the second conference was about gaining momentum; and this conference is about reporting what has worked, what has really worked well, and what still needs to be done.”

During a summit press conference, Rick Warren was questioned if working alongside groups that oppose Christian moral values on AIDS issues might require compromise.

“I don’t believe in compromising biblical convictions,” Warren responded, according to World Net Daily. “I don’t believe in that at all. If it’s in the Word, then that’s the way it should be done. I do believe in treating people with respect, even people that I disagree with. I think Jesus did that.”

The megachurch pastor noted that he can work with people in areas of common interest to help others although he might disagree with them in other areas. Continue >>

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Brian »

Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:42 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Millions of orphans, un-told sufferings, you'd think western society would atleast discourage the behavior that causes these horrors rather than celibrating it as "diversity". As usual it's the children that suffer the most from the tender mercies of the PC police.
Daniel Paul »

Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:12 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I do understand the concerns of the 'social gospel' as it's called. This model of church is to bring in those who are lost or young Christians at best. Being a member of said model Church I can say for sure the maturity level of members may not be all that high.

Churches like this have about a 2/3 people turnover in the attendees. It's a hospital church. People come in for a while and then once there are 'better' most go to become involved in a smaller Church.

The goal is to keep meeting the 'hospital needs' of those who have been wounded while growing the number of people who will stay and serve.

I am curious though...what about the PDL do you disagree with? Our Sr. Pastor is a Calvanist! You don't get much more conservative then that! Just FYI, true evangilism is Christians and non-Christians (darkness and light) working together! I've been on the mission field as a child and I know that relational evangelism is the most effective.
Daniel Paul »

Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:03 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

"90% goes to administrative costs"

It will be interesting to see exactly how the program will work. Although administrative costs are a concern the proof will be when the program is running.

What I do know is that Rick does NOT take an income from the Church. He has the money from his books (much of which he gives to the ministry) and doesn't feel it right to take from the Church when is quite blessed enough.

Provided Rick continues this financial foundation, it would be minimal administrative costs.
mike »

Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:29 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

you give financial support to combat this pandemic but where does all the money go? by the time it reaches the intented receipient, 90% goes to administrative costs! talk about the church practicing 'SELF-DENIAL'!
terriergal »

Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:03 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 3

ggmusic, we all do want to help dying people. But spiritual death is far more serious than physical death. This life is but a vapor, Scripture says. Rick Warren does not preach the gospel even when he is in front of a sympathetic audience. He especially doesn't do it in front of a hostile or unknown audience such as national television. Jesus Christ said if you are ashamed of me before men I will be ashamed of you before my father. How can anyone be in THAT position and still be a credible pastor of the true church?

What Rick is doing is promoting the social gospel, like Jim Wallis, Tony Campolo, etc. as well as eastern mysticism (he quotes many so-called "christian" eastern mystics in his books and promotes contemplative spirituality proudly. These are all offenses to Christ, which is whom we are primarily to be concerned with pleasing... not the world.
kc95819 »

Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:45 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

IF Saddleback believes in the Triune God, and God is creator of the universe ,and the Bible is the word of God. Why are they not wanting to save the souls of the perpetuators of this scourge? The Bible says for instance in:

Jhn 8:11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Is this the Saddleback version?-
go ahead and commit sexual sin but be sure you use a condom?

I wonder who these 'New Age Christians' are serving?

What are they trying to do? Just wondering.
maranatha7593 »

Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:31 am Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

This church disturbs me, period, even before they convened this "AIDS summit". It seems to me they are addressing the SYMPTOM of the problem here and not the problem itself. Jesus ALWAYS went right to the heart of a matter.

I pray Saddleback Church will focus on pleasing God and not focus on being men-pleasers. There IS a Godly way to reach the lost which ministers to their needs without compromising the Gospel. In fact, compromising the Word of God guarantees their needs will NOT be met.
jc4me »

Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:13 pm Agree: 4 Disagree: 3

outofbabylon:

Mr. Warren is part of the emerging church of deceit just like Brian Mclaren, Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, and many other's too numerous to mention. This moement is creating a bridge to Roman Catholicism and "Orthodox Biblical Christianity" If you want to learn more on the damage this liberal/post modern movement is doing to the work of our Lord Christ Jesus, then go to www.understandtetimes.org, and www.apprising.org. I hope this helps give you a idea, that this is just another sign of the latter part of the end times where the Bible speaks of false teachers.
outofbabylon »

Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:59 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 1

Mr Warren needs to explain and repent himself over the recent signing of an Interfaith Ecumenical concession between many top Christian leaders and the Muslim faith which is very disturbing to faithful Christians.

Please read the blog at http://www.myspace.com/outofbabylon
GMG »

Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:36 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Early this morning I wrote that everyone seems to want to get on the bandwagon, and I was thinking of all these hollywood types, politicians, "megachurches", when I said this. It's like the more it gets on the news, the better opportunity for these kinds of characters to get some free publicity. Is it just that we don't hear enough about all the small groups grappling with these issues much earlier on (it's not like our liberal media is overly enchanted with grass roots christian type efforts), or do we really miss the boat too often?
dannygirl, »

Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:23 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

jc4me,
"Amen and Amen Kone Wone, Dannygirl, dgnymn, the Watch, and Prophet for preaching the Word like it is meant to be taught, and not this emergent heresy."

God Bless and AMEN to you to.

Danny
Nerohdam »

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:07 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Thank you jc4me for taking the time to break it down for everyone.

GMG - I also hear what you are saying too. I think we know the source of AIDS is sin. No doubt about it and that message should be preached. I guess I was trying to address the secondary aspect as in finding ways to fight AIDS in ADDITION to as in medicine and research. And I say research in ethical as in ethics that follow scripture. All in all great comments and post!
jc4me »

Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:39 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 2

ggmusic: Go find out what the Gospel of Christ says about the Gospel of Christ. Go study the Gospels, the Book of Acts,the letters to the Corinthian Churches, the Epistles and the Book of Revelation, and then and only ten comment on what you just asked me, and on your previous comment as to whether they are emergent or not.

I am not saying we should not help people wit AIDS. I'm simply saying that we must first give people what is to change their lives from the inside - that is the Gospel of Christ so they can choose or reject Christ, ad then we are to help their physical needs. I don't know what Bible you're reading, but it's sure not the same one I read.
ggmusic »

Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:54 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 3

So we should make sure we as Christians judge them first before we help?
jc4me »

Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:44 am Agree: 4 Disagree: 1

no problem GMG. I just want to make people aware in this post modern culture the dangers of the emergent church movement. And, yes, I agree with both you and nerhodam wholeheartedly on showing Christ-like compassion to those in need by helping their physical needs, but we need to be careful not to use wordly ways of doing so. The church needs to influence the world; not the world influence the church. What many of these movements are doing is showing humanitarian compassion, but not sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ. In this case, the Warrens have endorsed an ecumenical forum of democrats and republicans (believers and non believers alike) (light and darkness working together) trying to figure out a human solution to a clearly spiritual problem.

If you don't address the root cause of AIDS, then you will mearly put a bandade on the disease, and not address the true issues behind why it spreads. I do believe in educating peple on AIDS, but I believe if people were just to repent of their sins, and give their hearts to Jesus Christ as Lord and as Savior, and if they would read their Bibles more and see what God has to say about homosexuality, bi-sexuality, bestiality, pedophilia, adultery, fornication, pornography, drug use, and other forms of sex sex outside the confines of God's order of marriage between one man and one woman, then we would't be in such a rut financially as well as emotionally about the issue. I say there are many missionary organizations that preach the Gospel Truth out there and while their preaching and teaching the Truth, they then address the Physical sicknesses of the people. One of them is Gospel for Asia. There are thers, but we need to remember that this "Purpose Driven" Agenda is more man driven than Jesus Driven, and we must be on the lookout for a very real enemy called Satan who disguises himself as an angel of light and will try to deceive even the elect if that were possible. Jesus Christ is the true healer of our hearts and our behaviors and our sins, and every other twisted thing in this world if we only come and confess to Him our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.
GMG »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:45 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 1

Goodness jc4me, the amount of time you've spent on this is rather awe-inspiring. What is particularly troubling is the insidious, oh-so-subtle way of subverting God's Word. Sure reminds me of satan in the garden.

And Nerohdam, I share some of your same reservations in determining how and where we support efforts to help in the on-going problems of our world, AIDS being such an obvious need. I know that there are some good sound biblically based groups working hard in this area, perhaps those are the ones that we need to go to.

One of the big things that I find so bothersome about the whole AIDS issue is where we are with it today. There are so many who are in fact innocent victims, I think Africa is a good example of how the innocent suffer. But somehow, the world seems to have missed the whole point in how AIDS began and spread in the first place -- just how it has gotten to be the pandemic it is now. Everyone is either on the bandwagon or wants to be associated with it to show how socially conscious they are. But why aren't we learning the lessons to be taught by this pandemic?

I guess that sounds like I don't care about those suffering from a disease that is terminal, but that is far from the truth. I am simply lamenting the state our world is in.
ggmusic »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:34 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 2

Sorry - emerging church or not - should Christians not want to help sick and dying people? Isn't that what we do?
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:24 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Nerhodam:

in my previous post i mistyped this: "I'm not trying to be argumentative ok. I just believe that as the brethren in Cherist, we need to do the work of God God's way."

I meant brethren in Christ; not brethren in Cherist. Please forgive the mistype.
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:20 pm Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

Nerohdam: You said the truth - The BIBLE is the truth we need. It does not contain the Word of God, but rather IT IS THE WORD OF GOD. I'm glad you found the website very interesting. Roger Oakland has an international missionary outreach as well as a biblical apologetics ministry train and equip the Body of Christ into Sound Biblical Doctrine, and to encourage them to stay in the Word. There is another siter I want you to check out and read. it is www.apprising.org. Pastor Ken Silva has some pretty interesting things exposing the emerging church, and all it's proponents as well as Rick Warren. I'm not trying to be argumentative ok. I just believe that as the brethren in Cherist, we need to do the work of God God's way, and the Bible in it's whole context gives us the way to do it. When men take biblical principles and expound on them and create a "new doctrine" or a "new belief", or a "rethinking" that is apart from the whole counsel of God, then false doctrine and teachingss will set in, and they are destructive, because they teach a "form of truth", but when more carefully examined and discerned, they are exposed for what they are.

http://www.apprising.org/archives/rick_warren/index.html

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/06/robert_schuller_1.html

Again, I exhort you to study up a little bit more on this seeker-friendly/emergent church of derception and how the Warrens urpose Driven P.E.A.C.E Plan is really nothingmore than a way to unite all religions. The emergent church and Rick Warren are also very much advocates of Bono from U2, Oprah Winfrey, and the COEXIST Movement. If you know any thing about these, or have rtecently followed Bono in particular, you will see their ideas although appealing to the ears of men, they don't line up with what God says in His Word. Bono, endorses the "Message Remix" Paraphrase Bible Translation which has taken out words like homosexuality, nad just contemporarily translated them to the word lust, etc. What they stand for is more in line with what the new age, and unitarian beliefs teach; rather than what Biblical Christianity teaches. We are exhorted in the Scriptures to be like the Bereans who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul the Apostle taught was true. I urge you to get acquainted with these movements, and then you yourself can ask questions when you hear a "Bible Teacher" teaching something that sounds like it may be ok because some truth is being taught, but you know something is quirky with it. I hope this helps you brother, and remember, the Word of God is not to be made relative. it is absolute in it's truth about Christ, and the Gospel Witness, and should not be watered down to bring in more hearers, or in this case, more "seekers"..
Nerohdam »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:44 pm Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

jc4me - interesting website and definately some food for thought. In fact it does cause the head to spin and in doing so it makes me want to get into the Word as while what you state seems to be true and what I state seems to be true, the only thing I know is that the Word is always true. It is the rock and my anchor. As to be honest with you, the website you directed goes over my head and it is only when I go to the Word that everything becomes simple again even if I don't completely understand everything at the time I read it but the Spirit guides me and the LIving Word speaks to me.

I know you understand this and I hear what you are saying. In the same vein, I pray for all of us to lift up our leader whether or not we agree with them in the trust tthat God will answer our prayers as His Son Christ told us He would. And my prayer is that the Good Lord will open up eyes, ears and hearts to the Truth in all things. Amen.
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:37 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Nehrodam:

http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c29.shtml

I could not post the entire article, but hopefully this wil put things into perspective as to why i don't agree wit Rick Warren and his "Man Driven Purposes".
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:35 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Continued:

........................"Will the Emerging Church Lead the Church to the Roman Catholic Church?

It is important to keep scripture in mind when we are looking for a method or a means to promote church growth. A Christianity that is not based on the Scriptures is a false Christianity. It may be ecumenical and it may be successful in attracting numbers, but it is not biblical. It could even lead people to believe they believe, but instead they follow false teachers and false doctrine and are deceived.

You know where they could spend eternity, separated from God!

[1] 2 Timothy 3: 16
[2] Revelation 22: 18-19
[3] Warren Smith, "Deceived on Purpose: The New Age Implications of the Purpose-Driven Church," Mountain Stream Press, Magalia, CA, p. 23, 24.
[4] Dan Kimball, The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for the New Generation, Zondervan, 2003, page 7.
[5] Ibid.
[6] 1 Timothy 4: 1 and 2 Timothy 4:3
[7] Dan Kimball, page 6.
[8] Ibid., pages 7-8.
[9] Ibid., pages 13-14.
[10] Ibid., page 127.
[11] Ibid., page 133.
[12] Ibid., page 143.
[13] Ibid., page 155.
[14] Ibid., page 171.
[15] Ibid., page 185.
[16] John 8: 31-32
[17] John 8: 43
[18] Dan Kimball, p. 185
[19] Ibid. p. 185
[20] www.seminary.edu/aboutnorthern/index.html
[21] Robert Webber, “Wanted Ancient-Future Talent,” Worship Leader, May/June 2005, p. 10
[22] Jordon Cooper interview with Dr. Webber, http://www.theooze.com/articles/article.cfm?id=385, posted December 11, 2003
[23] Ibid.
[24] Robert Webber, "Ancient-Future Evangelism: Making Your Church a Faith-Forming Community," Baker Books, page 114 "
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:32 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Continued:

"In order to clarify Dr. Webber’s views, I did some further research. I found an interview Dr. Webber had done posted on a web site called TheOoze.com. Responding to the question: “What do you think the North American evangelical church is going to look like 25 years from now?” Dr Webber responded:

Christianity will be less national, less culturally formed. It will be smaller pockets of communities in neighborhoods. The church will focus on people, not buildings, on community, not programs, on scripture study, not showy worship. [22]

Certainly this view of the future sounds reasonable and acceptable from a biblical perspective. In fact, I could say a hearty “Amen” to what Dr. Webber said. But the next statement adds a whole different dimension to the direction he believes Christianity is emerging towards. He stated:

Biblical symbols such as baptismal identity and Eucharistic thanksgiving will take on new meaning. The church will be less concerned about having eschatology and more committed to being an eschatological community. [23]

Over the past several years, I have observed that Dr. Webber’s prediction regarding the future of the church seems to be accurate. Many who were once anticipating the soon and imminent return of Jesus are now asleep. Some are saying it appears “the Lord has delayed His coming.” Others are saying “we have been misled by pastors and teachers who have taught us that the second coming is a literal return of Jesus to set up His Kingdom.” These same people are claiming the “Kingdom of God” will be established here on earth through Christians during the Eucharistic Reign of Jesus.”

After reading Dr. Webber’s prediction that “Biblical symbols such as baptismal identity and Eucharistic thanksgiving will take on new meaning,” I ordered his book “Ancient-Future Evangelism.” This is what I read on page 114:

A brief glance at the teaching of the Eucharist from the pre-Nicene period provides insight into the early church’s understanding. The Fathers taught that continual spiritual nourishment was provided to believers at this great feast. First it is clear from the writings of Justin Martyr in the middle of the second century that this is no empty symbol. Christ is really present in the bread and wine. He feeds us in the remembrance of His salvation. He feeds us through His presence which is accomplished through prayer. [24]....."
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:31 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Continued:

"In this article, Dr. Webber stated that “the Spirit is working a new thing in the church” and an “ancient-future worship is being born.” He listed a number of things that he believes are necessary for “talented workers” to discover if they are going to be a successful part of this new movement. Some of these are:

Rediscover how God acts through the sacred signs of water, bread and wine, oil and laying on of hands.

Rediscover the central nature of the table of the Lord in the Lord’s Supper, breaking of bread, communion and Eucharist.

Rediscover how congregational spirituality is formed through the Christian celebration of time in Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, Holy Week, Easter and Pentecost.

While I agree with Dr. Webber it would be beneficial to reintroduce the great hymns written in the past by anointed men and women of God that expound sound biblical doctrine, it appears that is not what he means by returning to “the ancient.” In fact his list of things to do in his call for “ancient-future worship talent” mentions a number of terms and ideas that cannot be found in the Bible.

For example, when I hear the expression “sacred signs of bread and wine” or the mention of “Lent” as a means of “rediscovering congregational spirituality” - while these ideas may be ancient, I wonder where the ideas originate. Further, when I hear about “rediscovering the central nature of the table of the Lord in the Lord’s supper, breaking of bread, communion and Eucharist” I am reminded about the “new evangelization” program that is presently underway. Did you know Pope John Paul II has called for a “missionary vision” centered on “a rekindling of amazement focused on the Eucharist” to bring the world to the Eucharistic Jesus?

Could the Merging Church be Reemerging?

Dr. Webber is one of the chief promoters of the emerging church. He has written a number of books on the topic including Ancient-Future Evangelism: Making Your Church a Faith-Forming Community and Ancient-Future Faith: Rethinking Evangelicalism for a Postmodern World....."
Nerohdam »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:30 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

I understand jc4me I understand what you are saying and for Mr. Warren he will be responsible to the Almighty. But at the same time I do not subscribe that AIDS is caused by homosexuality along. That is giving a blind eye to those born with a disease that was not a direct fault of their own. I am in total agreeance with you that the Word is to be foremost but even God used Saul to mold David.

I will say for the record that the words you speak are truth and I thank you brother for saying true to the Word! :)
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:29 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Continued:

"While I realize we are living at a period of time where technology is the key to entertainment and visual stimulation is a necessary tool required for capturing the attention of this generation, I ask you to consider what the Bible teaches. What about less Word and more experience? Could someone quote the chapter and verse to justify that? What about the idea that visual stimulation is the formula for inducing a spiritual atmosphere that will draw seekers to Jesus? Where is that found in the Bible?

I don’t know about you, but my when I hear about the emerging-church-methodology to forsake “apologetics” and “careful exegetical and expository preaching” for the sake of a generation that is “hungry to experience God”, I have some concerns. Could this be another avenue to “dumb-down” Christianity so that we no longer know what God has said? How effective can experiential Christianity be when it comes to knowing who we are, where we are in time, and where we are headed?

Jesus said He is coming again? How many professing Christians will be ready when He returns?

Ancient-Future Faith

Dr. Robert “Bob” Webber is recognized by pastors, denominational leaders, scholars and lay people as one of the foremost authorities on worship renewal. He regularly conducts workshops for almost every major denomination in North America through the Institute of Worship Studies which he founded in 1995.

Prior to his appointment to his present position at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, Dr. Webber taught at Wheaton College for 32 years as Professor of Theology. He has authored over 40 books and is also a regular contributor to numerous magazines and newspapers. [20] He is on the editorial board of Chuck Fromm’s “Worship Leader” magazine.

I was first introduced to Dr. Webber and his views when I read an article that he had written in the May/June issue of “Worship Leader” tiled Wanted: Ancient Future Talent. Under a subheading labeled “The Call for Ancient-Future Worship Talent” Webber wrote:

I am personally most gratified to see the shift toward a recovery of the ancient. While many good choruses have been produced over the past forty years, the rejection of the sources of hymnody and worship by the contemporary church has resulted in a faith that is an inch deep. [21]..."
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:28 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Continued:

"However, Dan Kimball sees a new worship generation in the making based on experience that is essential to the emerging church. In a section of his book subtitled "Truly worshipping in a worship gathering,” he writes:

We should be returning to a no-holds-barred approach to worship and teaching so that when we gather, there is no doubt we are in the presence of God. I believe that both believers and unbelievers in our emerging culture are hungry for this. It isn’t about clever apologetics or careful exegetical and expository preaching or great worship bands. … Emerging generations are hungry to experience God in worship. [18]

Obviously, in order for this to happen, changes would have to be incorporated. Kimball has thought this through and offers a number of suggestions which he lists in a chart [19] that shows how the “modern church” must adjust and move towards a “no-holds-barred approach” to worship. Some of these are:

Services designed to be user-friendly and contemporary must change to services that are designed to be experiential and spiritual-mystical.

Stained-glass that was taken out of churches and replaced with video screens should now be brought back into the church on video screens.

Lit up and cheery sanctuaries need to be darkened because darkness is valued and displays a sense of spirituality.

The focal point of the service that was the sermon must be changed so that the focal point of the service is a holistic experience.

Use of modern technology that was used to communicate with a contemporary flare must change so that church attendees can experience the ancient and mystical (and use technology to do so)....."
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:28 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Continued:

"Now, I ask you, this question. What does the Bible say about Vintage Christianity and the so-called emerging church? Is the goal of Christianity experience-based or Bible-based? Jesus said: “If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” [16] Further He stated: “Why do ye not understand My speech? because ye cannot hear My word.” [17]

Less Word, More Worship

It should be apparent by now that the emerging church is more experience-based than Bible-based. Further, in the emerging church the Word of God takes a secondary position to the worship of God.

While Dan Kimball and other promoters of the emerging church may be sincere in their efforts to evangelize the postmodern generation and believe they are genuinely representing the scriptures, there are some real concerns that need to be addressed. Deviating from the Word of God for extrabiblical experience can open the door to deception. While worshipping God is a very important part of the Christian faith there are problems that can occur if worship supersedes the word....."
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:27 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Continued:

"Dan Kimball is the author of The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for New Generations. He is also launching a church called Vintage Faith Church in Santa Cruz, California. Kimball makes the following statement in the introduction of his book:

I believe with all my heart that this discussion about the fast-changing culture and the emerging church must take place. While many of us have been preparing sermons and keeping busy with the internal affairs of our churches, something alarming has been happening on the outside. What once was a Christian nation with a Judeo-Christian worldview is quickly becoming a post Christian, unchurched, unreached nation. New generations are arising all around us without any Christian influence. So we must rethink virtually everything we are doing in our ministries. [9]

Certainly the spiritual climate in North America has changed radically over the past number of years just as Dan Kimball has stated. Many, including Rick Warren and Dan Kimball use the term “post-Christian era” to describe the days in which we are living. They say, while the seeker-friendly era was successful in bringing a generation of “baby-boomers” to Jesus, that time is past. Now we need to find new innovative methods that will reach this new generation for Jesus.

Kimball’s book, The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for New Generations, is written for this purpose. He not only identifies the problems he believes the church is now facing, he provides the answers and the solutions. The church for the future, he believes, must be more sensual and experienced-based. He calls this church “Vintage Christianity”.

Perhaps the term “Vintage Christianity” is new to you. While it is not my intention to describe all that it means in this commentary, a few chapter titles from Kimball’s book under a heading called “Reconstructing Vintage Christianity in the Emerging Church” will be helpful for us to understand where the emerging church is headed. These are: “Overcoming the Fear of Mulitsensory Worship and Teaching”, [10] “Creating a Sacred Space for Vintage Worship”, [11] “Expecting the Spiritual”, [12] “Creating Experiential Multisensory Worship Gatherings”, [13] “Becoming Story Tellers Again” [14] and “Preaching Without Words”. [15]....."
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:26 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Continued:

"Further, he explains what the “emerging church” must do in order to emerge:

Today seekers are hungry for symbols and metaphors and experiences and stories that reveal the greatness of God. Because seekers are constantly changing, we must be sensitive to them like Jesus was; we must be willing to meet them on their own turf and speak to them in ways they understand. [8]

Now, let’s follow Rick Warren’s line of reasoning through to its logical conclusion based on the idea the world is hungry for an Eastern worldview, the New Age, mysticism and spiritual enlightenment. If it is necessary to meet these “spiritual seekers” on their turf, wouldn’t that require Christianity to become more New Age and mystical?

Emerging into What?

Rick Warren and others say we need to pay attention to the emerging church. Things are changing, they say and the “emerging church” has the answers for our generation. But what will the emerging church emerge into? Could it be a form of Christianity that embraces experience rather than God’s Word?...."
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:25 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Continued:

"It is true over the past decades many trends have come and gone. As Warren stated in the foreword of Kimball’s book:

As a pastor, I’ve watched churches adopt many contemporary styles in worship, programming, architecture, music, and other elements. That’s okay as long as the biblical message is unchanged. But whatever is in style now will inevitably be out of style soon, and the cycles of change are getting shorter and shorter, aided by technology and the media. New styles, like fashions, are always emerging. [5]

Not all these trends have been based on sound biblical doctrine. In fact the reason many of these trends occurred was because Christians were vulnerable to “winds of doctrine” that had no biblical basis.

According to the Bible, in last days these winds of doctrine will be “doctrines of demons” that will influence Christians to fall away from the truth and accept ideas that “tickle their ears.” [6]

Rick Warren is not only supportive of the “emerging church,” he believes that it is exactly what is required at this time. He believes this is what “the purpose-driven” church that he founded will become in the “postmodern world.” He notes:

In the past twenty years, spiritual seekers have changed a lot. In the first place, there are a whole lot more of them. There are seekers everywhere. I’ve never seen more people so hungry to discover and develop the spiritual dimension of their lives. That is why there is such a big interest in Eastern thought, New Age practices, mysticism and the transcendent. [7]........"
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:25 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Continued:

" You may ask, so what is wrong with this? Isn’t it better for a seeker to be reading some version of the Bible, rather than not reading the Bible at all? Many Christians, although they have been believers for years, claim they still have difficulty in understanding the Bible that has been translated word by word from the original text. If someone can come up with a way to make the Bible more understandable, wouldn’t this be a great tool for planting seeds for the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Such a line of reasoning may sound acceptable. However we also know that what seems right to man, may be wrong from God’s perspective. Further when we rely upon man’s thoughts rather than God’s thoughts it’s almost certain that we will be deceived. With regard to Eugene Peterson’s The Message, there is one message that should be clear. If you want the truth and all the truth, read the Bible - not some man’s conjecture about what he thinks God has said. Otherwise you have the potential of committing spiritual suicide.

Relevancy without Compromise
While it is true, Christianity must be relevant in order to be effective, how far can we stray from biblical standards and still be sound Christian witnesses of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Perhaps you have not heard about another new trend sweeping the Christian church. Many are saying a great change lies ahead. The seeker-friendly era is over. Now we are headed into another new period of church history. It’s called “the emerging church.” If you have not heard of this, try doing a search on the Internet by tying “emerging church” into a search engine. I guarantee you will be amazed at what you find.

Rick Warren is very supportive of “the emerging church.” This is what he wrote in a foreword for Dan Kimball’s book, The Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for New Generations --

This book is a wonderful, detailed example of what a purpose-driven church can look like in a postmodern world. My friend Dan Kimball writes passionately, with a deep desire to reach the emerging generation and culture. While my book The Purpose-Driven Church explained what the church is called to do, Dan’s book explains how to do it with the cultural creatives who think and feel in postmodern terms. You need to pay attention to him because times are changing.[4]...."
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:23 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Nerhodam: I see you point, and I agree that if one person would come to Christ, that would be great, but it is still wrong to try to fix a problem that is spiritual with people who are blind spiritually. particularly te speakers at the conference. Also, will there be people who trully come to Christ, or will they come to "the Purpose Driven Agenda"? I think the following excerpt will help you get a better perspective as to why I stand in opposition to the "seeker-sensitive" emergent social gospel that Rick Warren and the like have been promoting. It has watered down the true gospel of Christ to a gospel driven by man. Hopefully this further clarifies. And i humbly hope you now know why I can't stand by your position.

http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c29.shtml

The Emerging Church

Revival Or Return To Darkness?

Commentary by Roger Oakland
www.understandthetimes.org

"............Therefore according to Scripture, humans tread on dangerous ground when we take the liberty of adding to or deleting from what God has said. However, it is a fact that many seeker-friendly churches try to make the scriptures more “seeker-friendly”, by altering the actual inspired Word of God and reinterpret it into the ideas or views of man.

Whose Message?

"For example, consider a new version of the Bible authored by Eugene Peterson known as “The Message.” Described as a “contemporary rendering of the Bible from the original languages, crafted to present its tone, rhythm, events, and ideas in everyday language,” this “paraphrased” version of the Bible, in reality, is nothing more than Eugene Peterson’s thoughts and views. Peterson has taken the carefully translated words of the Bible and put them into his own words and chosen idioms. [3]

For example, consider the following portion of Scripture taken from John 3:17 - "that the world through him might be saved.” Peterson’s rendering reads: "He came to help, to put the world right again." It does not take a biblical scholar to understand that "saved" means that we can be redeemed from the judgment we deserve for our sins so that we can go to heaven. It should be obvious that using "help" instead of “saved” completely distorts the meaning of what Jesus said. And "to put the world right again" has nothing to do with the salvation of souls. In fact this sounds like the social gospel to reform the world through political action.

Rick Warren, the author of The Purpose Driven Church, is a strong supporter of Eugene Peterson’s message. While Warren claims he quotes the Bible when he quotes The Message he is not quoting the Bible. He is quoting the thoughts of some man who thinks he is stating what the Bible states...."
Nerohdam »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:03 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

That be reubenshow btw...
Nerohdam »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:02 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

In regard to Mr. 's post you too can learn to expose men of faith for a small fee of only $18.99. HAhahahaa.... as stated in his website I quote:

"Armstrong speaking as an ex minister say”game recognizes game and these ministers are playing games with people lives.”"

An ex minister?

This brothers and sisters is not about me slinging mud but going to a website that incriminates themselves. I did not condemn but they condemned themselves...

This game tires me and does nothing to uplift the Father nor my Spirit.... :(
Nerohdam »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:55 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

So says the infallible Word of God:

Leviticus 19:33-34

When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
reubenshow »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:00 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Flagged as inappropriate. show NEW BOOK - SNAKES IN THE PULPIT WWW.SNAKESINTHEPULPIT.COM WWW.REUBENARMSTRONGSHOW.COM THIS book EXPOSES THESE SO - CALLED PASTORS-- THEY ARE SNAKES hide
Nerohdam »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:26 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Also, the AIDS summit is about AIDS. Not are you a democrat or are you a republican. Yes vote for the candidate that values your beliefs but don't let your political ideologies blur on focus on the real enemy. And in this case it is AIDS. Perhaps a few of our social liberal democrats will see what they are endorsing and GOD will convict them of their political beliefs.

Again God is a lot bigger than you and I and to think God somehow shuns the social liberals is absurd. I know what you are saying jc4me but again I think the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater... :)
Nerohdam »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:21 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

jc4me - I think we put God into a serious box if we think that He can not use something like the AIDS summit and Mr Warren for His Glory. If even 1 person comes to accept Christ through this endeavor then I think it is worth a few of us getting dirty with those evil tax collectors and prostitutes...

Now if I go among the prostitutes and tax collectors because I will follow their lifestyle then yes beware and make sure you know yourself. But if you know who you are in God then be that light in the darkness.
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:36 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Nerohdam:

Yes I do believe that helping those in need is biblical, even if they are not of the same belief. However, when Mr. Warren is aligning himself with secular progressives to do this work, we have a problem, because those who are secular progressives will agree with the helping portion and sending money, and medical missions, etc, but I guarantee you that if Mr. Warren was teaching theGospel of Repentance at the Global AIDS Summit, that would not fly so well with those speakers he is so openly endorsing to speak at the summit to address other born again Christians from a secular persepective. Not to mention COEXIST and Bono which are behind the whole "unification" of "Abrahamic Faiths"; uniting all world religions. Sound familiar - Bible prophesy talks about this in Revelation.
Therefore, to further answer your question: it is biblical to help all those who are suffering; yes, even when they are not people who know Jesus. By this we show God's compassion, and His mercy in hopes that they will trully see Christ in us. However, don't align yourself with social liberal democrats and the like who teach that we should fund tax payer dollars to give more condoms in school instead of teaching abstinence to get your"work for the kingdom" done. Preach Christ Crucified and Repentance and forgiveness for people to have a true born again experience with God then help those in need while you're teaching them the truth. not the other way around. If you address the physical needs, but don't address the spiritual needs, then what have you gained. This is almost like praying for an unsaved friend who has a struggle with a sin. You don't pray to God for his/her sin, but you pray to God that they might be born again, and accept the truth of God in their lives so that the Holy Spirit will guide them in all truth. The same principle applies here. Mr Waren is preaching a social gospel; not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It has a form of truth, but denies true substance.

And just for the record, i am not the only conservative born again biblical purist on this site that has expressed factual disdain for Mr. Warens way of doing things, so please read all of our posts in context, do a little studying on why he is controversial, weigh it with the WHOLE COUNSEL of God, and then make your post known. Thank you and God bless you.
Nerohdam »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:42 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I think the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater...

In the name of Biblical purity you have thrown out the message of compassion to those in need. As the article states, would you not help someone in need even if their religious theology does not align with your own? I believe that was the main thrust of the article.

jc4me - I have read your other post in other articles and I stand behind your views concerning the Bible and according to Rick Warren he states " I don’t believe in that at all. If it’s in the Word, then that’s the way it should be done."

All he is requesting is for people to show compassion to those in need. Period. And yes that means working with those that do not share your worldview.

Now before you blast me for being part of the devils plan, I ask you how much division has these post done to the body of Christ? That my brothers and sisters is the real enemy.

I think finding ways to fight AIDS is a Christ cause and we must do our own part in our own way to fight that good fight. Religion is a poisionous well and those who drink of its water may just fall into that well too.

One thing I do know is that we are to lift up our brothers and sisters and even those we have a hard time loving and it is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict.
jc4me »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:13 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Amen and Amen Kone Wone, Dannygirl, dgnymn, the Watch, and Prophet for preaching the Word like it is meant to be taught, and not this emergent heresy.
KoneWone2 »

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:38 am Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

The only thing that "disturbs" me coming from that "megachurch" is the twisted Scriptures and redefinition of Christianity it is based upon. They do not preach the true full-orbed biblical gospel there but a social gospel instead. They should be warning all the wicked to flee from the wrath of God that is coming and to escape the the wrath that is already upon all the unrepentant sinners.

Thousands of Christians have been helping AIDS victims for years, well before Rick Warren came along blowing his own trumpet.

The Gospel According to Warren
Gary E. Gilley

"In his book The Purpose-Driven Life, his opening statement is, “It is not about you,” then turns around and writes a whole book about “you.” He belittles pop-psychology then repeatedly promotes it by simply calling it something else. He publicly cuts ties with Robert Schuller, then regurgitates some of the most odious things that Schuller has been teaching for thirty years. He claims commitment to the Scriptures then undermines them at almost every turn. He will tell his followers that he is not tampering with the message but only reengineering the methods, when in fact he has so altered the message as to make it all but unrecognizable.

This brings us to his most disturbing alteration, the gospel itself. To charge Warren with modification of the gospel is an ugly accusation, one that should not be made lightly. What is the evidence for such an indictment? Consider the following:

In the video that accompanies the “40 Days of Purpose,” Warren leads his listeners in prayer at the end of the first session. The prayer goes like this:

"Dear God, I want to know your purpose for my life. I don't want to base the rest of my life on wrong things. I want to take the first step in preparing for eternity by getting to know you. Jesus Christ, I don't understand how but as much as I know how I want to open up my life to you. Make yourself real to me. And use this series in my life to help me know what you made me for." Warren goes on to say: "Now if you've just prayed that prayer for the very first time I want to congratulate you. You've just become a part of the family of God."

Warren would be hard-pressed to find biblical backing for this presentation of the gospel. We find nothing here about sin, grace, repentance, the person of Christ, Calvary, faith, judgment, or the resurrection. This is the ultimate in a mutilated, seeker-sensitive gospel: the seeker comes to Christ in order to find his purpose in life, not to receive forgiveness from sin and the righteousness of God. Then, to pronounce someone a full-fledged member of the family of God because he has prayed such a prayer (based on minimal, if any, understanding of the person and work of Christ), is beyond tragic.
Continued here:

http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/Articles/print_articles.asp?ID=112
reubenshow »

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:23 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 1

Flagged as inappropriate. show NEW BOOK - SNAKES IN THE PULPIT WWW.SNAKESINTHEPULPIT.COM WWW.REUBENARMSTRONGSHOW.COM THIS EXPOSES THESE SO - CALLED PASTORS-- THEY ARE SNAKES hide
dannygirl, »

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:18 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 1

2holy4u

How to you help with he hopeless is with out the pure milk of the word of God. I can not believe there is any argument on a Christian site. About what causes AIDS. Even the bible says when one sins sexually, he sins against his own body. You don't get AIDS from the air. Rick and Kay Warren have spoken against Christians who teach what god says about sin and it's consequences. "the wages of sin is death." All have sinned. All has fallen short of the glory of God". No on is righteous. Christ is our righteousness. He is our PURPOSE. Our purpose is Christ. If Rick Warren does not teach that. He is a false Prophet.

But it has been my experience that many people on this site is not real Christians. They don't care anything about what I've just said. They want to argue and defend evil. Some even want change Christianity. Some want us to throw out or bibles and listen to any false word.. Some even hope that Christianity will end. They see all these evil phony false Pastors and Churches. This makes some people very happy. But the Kingdom of God through the Lord Jesus Christ WILL NEVER END. His kingdom is from ever lasting to everlasting.

The true Church has been helping poor nation all over the world from the beginning of the Gospel and all through out American history. India and Africa have been blessed with the pure milk of the saving Grace brought through Word to save souls by the blood of Jesus Christ. Missionaries never came to condemn but to feed, cloth and teach the word of God, built schools and hospitals. Many missionaries have given their lives to spread the good new of salvation through Christ alone. Many have died and have been imprisoned, beaten, and marytered even to this day to bring the poorest and neediest people of the world to Christ. The y feed them as well as preach the gospel.

But rick Warren sacrifices nothing. He has even sold off his Church to big business company. The Saddleback Church is a corparation. Not a Church. Rick Warren is a multi Millionaire. Because he tickles peoples ear. He gives them the false gospel of self. Then he thinks he can change the church in his own image. He wants to merge the Church with the Islamiic faith. Rick Warren teaches as though invented or owns Christianity. But he does not obey it himself. He teaches a false word. If you don't know or care about the Hersey and divisions he has caused then, I'm wasting my time. I won't waste any more time talking tom you. You are caught up in the emergent and purpose driven heresies. So there you go...............................

Danny
jc4me »

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:14 pm Agree: 4 Disagree: 1

dgnymn:

I agree wholeheartedly, this is deception in the church my brother.

you wrote:

"So...Mr. Warren? Are you now trumpeting that your "mega-church" has won more people to Christ than any other church on the planet? Shame on you!!! Have you heard of the underground church in China and other persecuted countries? By far, there are more people coming to Christ in those countries than you can count the words of Scripture!!!

Megachurches disturb? Yes, they are disturbing places, especially in light of the watering down of the Truth of Scripture and that compromising being down within the Contemplative and Emergent movements, and the Warrens are trying to wed everybody to "their" point of view!!! It is not a convincing argument, this Rick and Kay Warren team!!!

His P.E.A.C.E. initiative is just another political ploy to try to form a one world church, and there's plenty of evidence of that, and his own working groups who are trying to form their own vision throughout this country is appalling. How many have left Saddleback because of the brainwashing and political and religious correct doctrines the Purpose Driven Life and Church has apostasized. How about recalling your book and writing another called the Christ Driven Church?

Does his church have a Cross of Christ and does he teach Christ crucified? Does he not want to know anything but Christ and Him crucified like the Apostle Paul? Those are the most important issues, not pandering to the Hollywood and Socialist Democrats!!! "

AMEN RIck Warren and his Emergent Social Gospel post modern "Christian" friends need to repent and come back to the Christ of the Bible.
jc4me »

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:09 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

continued:

With this I pray that God may give you discernment in these Last Days, and that your eyes may be open to the whole counsel of God, not just what sounds good, or appears good. We must test all things, and Scripture is our measuring stick.
jc4me »

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:08 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Mcfbc do not be deceived. The Scriptures say that in the Last Days there will be false teachers among us, and that people will surround themselves with teachers who will tickle their ears. Please my brother, do not be deceived, but pray that the Holy Spirit give you discernment. When the Bible speaks of unity amongst the brethren, this is talking about brethren who are trully following the Word of God in context. We are to exhort those who are in error and teach them in love. This is what I am doing here, but don’t expect me to water it down, because the truth is to be taught in love, but nevertheless the truth remains truth. We must pray for Mr. Rick Warren that he would repent of this man driven message and return to the Savior that bore his sins on the cross in Calvary.

Furthermore, here are some Scriptures for you to ponder concerning narrow mindedness, etc.....

Matthew 7:13
[ The Narrow Way ] “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Matthew 7:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 7:14
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 13:24
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:23-25 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
jc4me »

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:08 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

mcfbc wrote:

"I am so thankful for Christian leaders who see beyond the narrow view that so many Christians have of how Christ is working. And I also look forward to meeting all these AIDS victims in heaven whose lives were changed for eternity because of these Christians willingness to show God's love. "

NO one is denying helping people with AIDS, but where is the Gospel of Christ bieng preached to these whom are afflicted? I only see a Man Driven...Uh, I'm sorry a Purpose Driven "P.E.A.C.E" Plan that does not preach the Gospel of Christ, but seeks to unite all the worlds religions under the unbrella of good works (sounds new age to me) as being the answer to this dying and lost world. The only Answer to this lost and dying world is Jesus Christ our Risen Lord and Savior. In Him there is Life, there is Peace, and there is Joy. Where is the Sound Doctrine and the Whole Counsel of God being preached in this Saddleback Congregation? Everything is topical and postmodern. Is the Bible being taught expositorily and within context as to obtain God's perspective, or are we grabbing one "truth" from Scripture and twisting it while injecting man's solution to man's problems, and pushing God aside
jc4me »

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:06 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Read up more on the social liberalism of the emergent church, and the many seductive false doctrines such as contemplative prayer (which is really eastern mysticism), the bringing back of icons to "feel" God move in people's midsts, you can eve read up on Brian Mclaren's (The man who is credited to being the founder of this liberal church movement) view, as well as many of their leaders views on hell and homosexuality, and you will see they are totally extra biblical. you can find more info on this at www.understandthetimes.org, and www.apprising.org.

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