Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney is facing difficulties with some evangelical voters in Iowa who are troubled by his Mormon faith, which they consider not part of historic orthodox Christianity.
-
(Photo: AP Images / Charlie Neibergall)Republican Presidential hopeful, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney speaks to local residents, Friday, Nov. 30, 2007, at Kirkwood Community College in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
Although the former Massachusetts governor is still leading the pack in the important early voting state, a fellow Republican and former Baptist preacher is closing in from behind, benefiting from voters’ dilemma with Mormonism.
Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee’s rise in Iowa has been fueled by evangelical Christians attracted to his conservative views and openness about the role of faith in his life.
In a new ad running in Iowa, Huckabee declares “faith doesn’t just influence me, it really defines me.”
On the other hand, Romney has refrained from addressing how his Mormon faith will influence his public duty despite intense curiosity by voters.
He has been able to garner evangelical support, as he did in South Carolina, but evangelicals in Iowa seem more uncomfortable with Romney’s Mormon beliefs compared to fellow believers in other states.
“Mormons spend two years of their lives as missionaries, preaching an anti-Christian doctrine,” said Iowa resident and Huckabee volunteer Barbara Heki, 51, according to the New York Times. “I don’t want someone out there, if I can help it, who’s going to be acting on an anti-Christian faith as the basis of their decision making.”
Most poll respondents, however, are more reluctant to admit their bias against Mormonism.
A New York Times/CBS News poll in November of likely Iowa caucusgoers found that among evangelicals, 36 percent favored Huckabee and 22 percent Romney, even though respondents said in nearly equal numbers that both candidates share the values of most Iowans.
The poll also found that about two-thirds of Huckabee’s supporters are evangelicals, compared with about one-third of Romney’s.
“I’m concerned a lot of Christians are thinking about the values issues and forgetting about the creator behind the values issues,” said Glenda Gherkey at a Huckabee event in Iowa, according to the New York Times. “I guess I feel like this country and this world needs a president who would be able to pray to the God of the Bible and he would be able to hear his prayers.”
Gherkey then wondered out loud if Romney’s prayer would “even get through.”
Although Huckabee said he did not want to speak for or bad-mouth any other candidates, the former governor said, “My views are what they are. I don’t think I’ve ever hidden where they come from.”
The Southern Baptist Convention, the denomination which Huckabee belongs to, does not consider Mormons to be part of historic Christianity.
“I’m glad you’ve made your choice for me. I don’t care why. I’m just glad you did,” Huckabee joked.
In an Iowa straw poll last August, Huckabee, still unknown to many at the time, came in a surprising strong second-place behind Romney. The former Arkansas governor also came in a narrow second behind Romney at the Washington Values Voter Summit in October.
RSS
Apollo...
Why you putting Colorado on your list? Mormons only make up 2% of the religious right in Colorado, whereas 38% are Christian. Nevada 12% vs 35%, New Mexico 4% vs 35%. I couldn't find actual statistics for Oregon but it does appear to be predominately Mormon. Washington 2% vs 29%. And I didn't even include Catholics in the numbers.
So, other than Utah, I dont know where all this "support" is coming from.
Bigotry is alive and doing far too well, especially among Republicans. Keep pushing to get rid of Mormons and you will soon find yourselves all alone on the 'religious right' ... Catholics are leaving, you can't afford to have Mormons leave, too. yes, Mitt needs evangelicals to win the presidency, but the Huckster can not win without Mormons (in Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Colorado, Arizona and even Idaho, Washington and Utah). You don't think that Mormons will vote for a Democrat? Harry Reid, the Demoncratic leader in the Senate is a Mormon and divides the Mormon vote. Provo, Utah (home to Brigham Young University) had a demoncratic congressman for most of the 1990's. And now that they have all been called members of Jonestown by Huckabees supporters in advertising, phone calls, mailers, etc. They will show their Christianity by turning their cheeks (you can guess which cheeks I am describing) and vote in another direction, libertarian, third party and moderate democrat.
Good luck, Huckster and your bigoted friends!
My ancestors came to America on the Mayflower to pursue religious freedom. My ancestors were pushed out of Mass. into Rhode Island because of religious freedom and my ancestors left the United States of America (my great great grandmother walked from Far West, Missouri to the Great Salt Lake valley which was then part of Mexico) to avoid rapists, murderers, a and a governor's extermination order to pursue religious freedom. We have been a longtime ally in the fight of the religious right (look at our fight against Roe, look what those justices had to say about Mormons! Look to what Mormons and Catholics did in Nevada for constitutional amendment of marriage)...If you don't want our help, we will no longer break bread with you.
I will never vote for a bigot. Jesse Jackson would sooner vote for David Duke than I would vote for Mr. Huckabee. The Huckster is just as big of a bigot as Mr. Duke.
Evidently, Romney is not even a good Mormon. Here's info I saw elsewhere:
For information on Mitt's problems check out what people from Mass has to say:
http://massresistance.org/romney/
Included is a 28-page comprehensive report released in November describing how Gov. Romney ran for office and governed as a liberal, despite his claims to the contrary.
Articles include:
How Mitt Romney brought "gay marriage" to Massachusetts
Report on the true pro-life views of Gov. Romney
Romney's universal health care includes taxpayer-funded abortions
Romney's Department of Social Services (DSS) honored two "married" men as their "Adoptive Parents of the Year"
While he was Governor, Romney donated $10,000 to radical homosexual "health" group
Letter from 44 conservative leaders across the country to Gov. Mitt Romney - Hand-delivered in December 2006; urged Romney to act to undo his mistakes on "gay" marriage before leaving office. Letter was ignored.
Letter from Mitt Romney to Massachusetts Log Cabin Republicans - While running for US Senate against Ted Kennedy Mitt made big promises to the homosexual lobby.
VIDEO of Romney debating Ted Kennedy in 1994 - Romney arguing that he's more liberal than Ted Kennedy!
Example of Governor's Commission on Gay and Lesbian Youth activities - Your tax dollars at work, under Romney's control.
Romney timeline on "gay" marriage - Here's what happened and when.
VIDEO of Romney disavowing any connection to pro-life movement - during 2002 campaign for Governor.
VIDEO of Romney passionately defending his pro-choice position - during 2002 campaign for Governor.
Here is Romney's speech, if you would like to read it:
http://www.mittromney.com/News/Speeches/Faith_In_America
Here is a good story:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-newvoices0507dec05,0,804997.story
In reference to Joseph Smith...
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."
What? you dont think that Satan knows the scriptures? he knows them better than we do, and he's intelligent enough to insert just enough "truth" (i.e. scripture) to make it sound good, but it is misleading.
"Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." Galatians 5:7-9. Don't you realize that a little lie in a truth makes that truth a complete lie? And a little truth in a big lie is just as bad.
Sure, Joseph's fruits were completely contrary to the word of God. I guess if that is the case, then the scripture below is false.
Mosiah 3:17 -
And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.
Cartoon banned by the Mormon church
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo
"""If a prophet does not proclaim God's will and His word, both written and by revelation, he is not a prophet. That is the definition of the word "prophet". """
This is true -- and this also proves that Joseph Smith was no prophet of God, but was a false prophet. For his teachings did NOT proclaim God's will and His Word; instead they were completely contrary to them.
It's not a skewed view if you read the Bible. Every single prophet in the Bible received revelations from God. That is what a prophet does. A prophet tells us what God wants us to hear. The whole Bible exists because of revelation. Without revelation, the people perish (Prov. 29:18).
A prophet does not call himself to the position of a prophet (Heb. 5:4). God calls a prophet to serve Him. A prophet does not do what he wants to do with his time, he does what God asks him to do. A prophet does not speak what he wants to speak, he speaks what God wants him to speak. Prophets are the Lord's chosen servants, called, chosen, and ordained to do His work, not their own. And He doesn't leave them high and dry. God gives them a work to do. That is what revelation is; God speaks to His prophets, and gives them their job, and tells them what to prophesy, what to preach. They are not their own teachers; they are the Lord's teachers. Revelation is crucial to the calling of a prophet, in any age. Here are a few examples: (Gen. 41:39; Deut. 8:3; Matt. 4:4; D&C 98:11; 1 Sam. 3:1; 1 Kgs. 19:12; Job 33:14; Dan. 2:45; Matt. 7:7; Matt. 11:27; John 10:4, 14:21, 15:15, 16:13, 17:8; 1 Cor. 12:3, 14:6; 2 Cor. 12:1; Gal. 1:12, 2:2; Eph. 1:17, 3:3; James 1:5; 2 Pet. 1:18; Rev. 1:1, 4:1; 1 Ne. 4:18; 1 Ne. 16:9; 2 Ne. 27:7; 2 Ne. 27:11; 2 Ne. 28:30; 2 Ne. 32:5; Enos 1:5; Jarom 1:4; Omni 1:25; Alma 5:46, 17:3; Hel. 5:30; Morm. 8:34, 9:7; Ether 3:25, 3:27; Moro. 7:37, 10:4).
geez...what a skewed view of a prophet. What..they just sit around on their thumbs waiting for some glorious revelation? NOT! That's only a minute part of it...especially after the New Testament
If they don't receive revelation from God, then they aren't prophets.
but you didnt answer my question.
Joseph Smith was God's spokesman on earth. "Whether by my own voice, or by the the voice of my servants, it is the same" (D&c 1:38).
If a prophet does not proclaim God's will and His word, both written and by revelation, he is not a prophet. That is the definition of the word "prophet". They speak with God, and receive His will directly, not just by middlemen.
by the way...who said the these prophets i know don't speak the will of God? you made that assumption from one sentence? how immature.
hess...
Joseph wasn't a true prophet either. At least not a prophet of God. Prophets dont speak anything contrary to the Word of God
Then your prophets are not true prophets, because God speaks his will through His prophets (2 Peter 1:21). They don't just read books.
hes...
i know lots of prophets. and none of them claim what Joe did. All the prophets i know speak the ONLY Word of God (the Bible). Everything they speak is weighed by the scriptures and by the prophets.
If God hadn't called prophets and apostles, we would not have the Bible today. For it was through prophets and apostles that God revealed His word, and they wrote it down. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, who testified of our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ.
mormons are smithian's. We are Christians b/c we follow only Christ. mormons follow joseph smith.
Yes, we are Christian. We believe in Jesus Christ and His teachings. Not you, or anyone else, will ever be able to take that away from us.
Let me just say this to every mormon. through these last few days and many posts, you have just reaffirmed that mormonism is NOT Christianity!! I repeat mormonism is NOT Christianity!! Thank you all so very much for enlighting us on true darkness of mormonism. We truly do love every mormon, just like every jew, muslim, hindu, buddaist, etc. etc. We just want the veil that Satan has placed upon your eyes to be removed and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob reveal himself to you through the true Jesus, Jesus Christ of the Bible.
I'm glad Romney is going to address this issue, and I hope he is honest about the huge differences between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity.
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Sin is earned...eternal life is a gift.
James 2:
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Good night and God Bless.
The gospel of Christ is very simple, it is all about Him. There is NOTHING you can do to earn salvation. All you have to do is open His Gift. There verses below are very clear.
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 10:9-11 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
12"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Galatians 2:20-21
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Yes, how will we hear the word without a preacher? And where does that preacher come from? God reveals His will through his chosen preachers, those he has given His authority to preach the gospel, and administer in the ordinances thereof. No one takes this office by themself. They must be called of God (Heb. 5:4).
Hokey...
I agree with you for the most part, but the truth remains that we will always sin. Our flesh cannot be saved. And there will always be a battle. But i do believe that there is a difference between sinning...and practicing sin. I believe we will always sin, but I believe we can cease from practicing sin.
As many times as we sin, God will forgive us if we repent. That is the mercy and love of God and His gospel. Of course we do not premeditate sinning in the future. If we do that, that too is sin. When we repent, it is to forsake the sin permanently. But if we fall short, or make a mistake, Christ is not going to abandon us. We can still repent.
The process of sanctification is one of continual repentance. It changes our heart and soul. It changes our dispositions and desires. We become like the people of king Benjamin when they shouted, "Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually" (Mosiah 5:2).
You are right. The correct attitude that we must always have is the same attitude that Nephi had, and that is "I will go and do the things the Lord hath commanded" (1 Nephi 3:7).
Thanks for the quotes from President Kimball. I love the prophets of the Lord.
servent, your posts are great, thanks. Keep it up. Mormons aren't going to hear the true until Christians speak the truth.
Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Have you reached this place of abhorrence of sin? Doesn't this sound impossible to you yet, Hesadanza?
Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer Kimball, pp. 354-355
“ What kind of repentance merits forgiveness? Alma 13:11-12 indicates an attitude which is basic to the sanctification we should all be seeking, and thus to the repentance which merits forgiveness, It is that the former transgressor must have reached a ‘point of no return’ to sin wherein there is not merely a renunciation but also a deep abhorrence of the sin- where the sin becomes most distasteful ti him and where the desire or urge to sin is cleared out of his life.”
(Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer Kimball’ Ch. 12, pp. 163-165)
An army officer called a soldier to him and ordered him to take a message to another officer. The soldier saluted and said, ‘I’ll try, sir! I’ll try!” to this the officer responded:’ I don’t want you to try, I want you to deliver this message.’ The soldier, somewhat embarrassed, now replied: ‘I’ll do the best I can, sir.’ At this the officer, now disgusted, rejoined with some vigor: ‘I don’t want you to try and I don’t want you to ‘do the best you can.’ I want you to deliver this message.’ Now the young soldier, straightening to his full height, approached the matter magnificently, as he thought, when he saluted again and said: ‘I’ll do it or die, sir.’ To this the now irate officer responded: ‘I don’t want you to die, and I don’t want you to merely do the best you can do, and I don’t want you to try. Now, the request is a reasonable one; the message is important; the distance is not far; you are able-bodied; you can do what you have been ordered. Now get out of here and accomplish your mission.’ It is normal for children to try. They fall and get up numerous times before they can be certain of their footing. But adults who have gone through these learning periods must determine what they will do, then proceed to do it. To ’try’ is weak. To ‘do the best Ican’ is not strong. We must always do better than we can…”
hokey, check out the sidebar page
Abandonment of Sin
Doctrine and Covenants 58:43 “There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin. Desire is not sufficient. In other words, it is not real repentance until one has abandoned the error of his ways and started a new path… The saving power does not extend to him who merely tries to abandon sin.”
How many times can you repent?
We must strive to forsake sin and live all the commandments. But we will fall short. That is why we have our Savior, Jesus Christ. His sacrifice and atonement make it possible for us to be forgiven when we fall short.
Satan's plan in the pre-mortal life was for us all to be required to be absolutely perfect in this MORTAL life, and therefore we would all be saved. Not one would be lost. We would all be denied our agency, one of the greatest gifts of God, in order for this to happen. There would be no sin because Satan would not allow it to even happen, whatsoever. Kind of a communist ideology. In other words, no need for a Savior. It was an utterly gross and evil plan.
But we know that we accepted God's plan, with the gift of his Son, Jesus Christ, as a Savior, because we are here today. Those that agreed with Satan were cast out with him, and never will have the privilege of obtaining a body. They lost their first estate.
God gives us our agency to sin, if WE choose to sin, or if WE fall short because of the flesh, because WE have our free agency to do so. But God does not condone it, he does not allow any sins, and we are commanded to repent if we do sin, and Christ's atonement will redeem us.
Again when is his grace sufficient.
1. After denying ourselves of All ungodliness.
2. After doing ALL we can do.
According to Moroni 10:32 and 2 Nephi 25:23.
As an example: If you tell your children, "You may have dessert AFTER you finish your vegetables," when do they get dessert?
So God's grace doesn't come until AFTER All we can do and AFTER denying ourselves of all ungodliness.
"Abandonment of Sin: The forsaking of sin must be a permanent one. True repentance does not permit making the same mistake again." (LDS pamphlet, "Repentance Brings Forgiveness.")
"2. There are no sins that God allows. If we want to sin, we have our agency to do so, if we so please. But He does not condone it. And He commands us to repent if we do sin, and he will forgive us."
"Forsake the sin and not REPEAT it."
Doesn't that mean that you can't commit the same sin more than once and still expect his grace to be sufficient?
Grace is sufficient to save me, if I strive to do all that I can do to obey God.
1. God can not condone sin, not in the least.
2. There are no sins that God allows. If we want to sin, we have our agency to do so, if we so please. But He does not condone it. And He commands us to repent if we do sin, and he will forgive us.
"Forsake the sin and not REPEAT it."
"Live all the commandments of the Lord."
Sounds like you only get one time to repent.
Five Steps to True Repentance by LDS prophet Spencer W. Kimball “…remember that to obtain forgiveness from the Lord and his church one must: 1) Realize the seriousness of the sin and pray in great humility ans sorrow. 2) Forsake the sin and not repeat it. 3) Confess the sin to the bishop or other church authority . 4) Restore as far as possible that which was damaged. 5) Live all the commandments of the Lord. (LDS pamphlet, “Repentance brings Forgiveness”.)
But you have told me you are not doing so yourself. So is his grace sufficient for you? Not according to Moroni 10:32 and Nephi 25:23.
Doctrine and Covenants 1:31-33 “For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven; And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.”
Hesadanza
1. What does it mean when it says, "I cannot look upon sin in the least degree of allowance?
2. What sins will He allow?
servent,
I don't type, I hunt and pick, might I suggest posting on one of these and come back later and post them here.
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071125/30217_Sidebar:_The_Bible_vs._Mormon_Beliefs.htm
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071204/30330_Romney_to_Gamble_Votes_with_Mormon_Speech.htm
Thanks for your help.
Daily striving to do our best and keep God's commandments is not impossible, Hokey. You can do it.
Hesadanza,
Doesn't this sound impossible?
I quote myself, "We strive to do 'all we can do.' I strive every day to do better. Do you?"
Eventually we will be able to fulfill God's law perfectly, but it will not be while we are still mortal. In the meantime, God has asked that we do "all we can do", which is doing our best. One of God's commandments is that we repent, and call on His name forevermore.
1. If you have not repented of your sins, you are still "in" them, and Christ's sacrifice cannot have any efficacy in your life.
2. If you repent, then you are not "in" them anymore. Christ washes them away.
3. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, his blood redeems us from our sin when we do what He has asked us to do, including repenting and obeying His commandments.
hokey,
please let me know when you're done, I've got several things I want to bring up. thnx
Hesadanza
We strive to do "all we can do." I strive every day to do better. Do you?
Yes Hesadanza I do try to do better but I fall way short.
But you just told me that it is possible to keep All his commandments. You also told me you haven't denied yourself of ALL ungodliness, or done ALL that you can do.
Alma 11:37 “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.”
1. What does it mean to be "in" your sins?
2.What is the oppisite of "in"?
3. If Jesus won't save you "in your sins", what condition MUST you be in before He will save you?
Because I am still mortal. The flesh is weak. We all fall short (Rom. 3:23). That is why we have a Savior. We cannot become perfect in this life, but we will have that opportunity in the next. We strive to do "all we can do." I strive every day to do better. Do you?
So if God is not a liar, and it is possible to keep ALL his commandments, why aren't you keeping all his commandments?
Sorry
If you had read the Book of Mormon, you would have clearly seen that it is another testament of Jesus Christ. It contains a name or title of Christ every 1.7 verses.
The LDS Church is not based on ONE man's revelation from God. It is based on continual revelation through living prophets and apostles that continue to receive God's will, even today. God has not changed the way he works. That is precisely why He is still revealing His will through his chosen servants on the earth today. That is the way he has done it since Adam. God reveals it to them.
alrighty :)
So if Gos is not a liar, and it is possible to keep ALL his commandments, why aren't you keeping all his commandments?
servent
You have some great thing to say, but would you allow me to talk with Hesadanza for a little while, and please pray.
HesadanzaTue Dec 04, 2007 2:37 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
"Surely. The followers of Jesus Christ that lived at his time must not have been Christians either then. They didn't have the Bible. They couldn't check to see if Christ's teachings were "Biblical". Peter, James, and John must not have been Christian. They couldn't check the Bible either for "Biblical" accuracy.
I guess the only "true" Christians are those that lived after the Bible was compiled and published. "
some thought before comments would be nice. THEY WERE TO BUSY WRITING THE NEW TESTAMENT!!! THEY not ONE but God used multiple people
HesadanzaTue Dec 04, 2007 4:31 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." The commandments are not optional.
Again, we solemnly reject the utterly evil, false, man-made doctrine of the unknowable, unseeable, uncomprehensible, physically filling all space, God. Paul rejects that conception of God too (Acts 17:16-31)!
God is a celestial, glorified, resurrected, and ever exalted man, the most Eternal Father in Heaven!!
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
HesadanzaTue Dec 04, 2007 2:26 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
"Biblical, Biblical. Why does everything need to be Biblical if God reveals it directly to his chosen and ordained servants, living prophets and apostles?
There was nothing Biblical in the day the Bible prophets wrote the books of the Bible. What were they basing their writings on? It wasn't the Bible. It hadn't been compiled yet. "
Don't you get it, they all agreed, over the course of thousands of years. b/c GOD TOLD THEM unlike joseph smith. There is one central theme in the Bible that is Jesus Christ. book of mormon is all about joseph smith. Can't you see the lies with the lds church? Lord please unviel his eyes in Jesus Name I pray Amen!!
don't you see, God has used numerous people throughout history to speak to the world. One person couldn't bring all of God's works to man. and they all went together. however, lds is based on ONE man's "revelation" from God. so you think God changed the way he worked since creation b/c js is so great?
No. God is not a liar.
1 Nephi 3:7 "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they mat accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."
According to this verse, will God give us a commandment we can not keep?
Yes, that's correct. If we don't do all we can do, which is our best effort in keeping all of His commandments, then His grace is not sufficient to save us.
From Moroni 10:32 and 2 Nephi 25:23 we can draw a conclusion that if we have not denied ourselves of all ungodliness and done all we can do, then his grace is not sufficient for us.
Hesadanza would you agree with this conclusion?
Yes. Being perfect as Christ commanded us is pretty broad and hard to fulfill too. But he said it, nonetheless (Matt. 5:48).
Yes, while in this mortal life there is ALWAYS something more a person can do to fulfill God's commandments better. Every day we pick ourselves back up and try again. No one is perfect. That is what "endure to the end" means. It means we do our best, every day of our lives. If we fall short, we repent, and strive to do a little better the next day. Our prayers become more sincere, we study the scriptures more intently and with faith, we do a good turn for our neighbor. Yes. I think you have the right idea.
Hesadanza,
Would you agree that there is more you or I could do?
Have you done all that you can do?
"All you can do" seems to me to be a pretty broad statement and very hard to fulfill. Isn't there ALWAYS something more a person could? Pray Longer. Read more of the Bible. Do something more for a neighbor.
That's alright. You make mistakes too. :)
Hesadanza
"I strive to deny myself of all ungodliness every day. I make mistakes. I sin."
I am sorry I read back to this statement and yes you did answer this question.
I've already answered that question too. No.
So then you are sinless?
Hokey, I've already answered those questions.
Hesadanza
1. Have you denied yourself of all ungodliness?
2. Have you done all that you can do?
Hokey,
1. "Believe in Christ", and "be reconciled to God", then the grace of God has effect, and we will be saved. How do you believe in Christ? How are you reconciled to God? You do what they command you to do.
2. "All we can do" is doing our best to follow all of God's commandments, having faith, and enduring to the end.
Hokey,
I strive to deny myself of all ungodliness every day. I make mistakes. I sin. But then I do my best to try and repent of those transgressions, and I know that God has provided a Savior for us, his beloved Son, Jesus Christ, who atoned for our sins, and through Him we may be forgiven of them. No man is perfect. We are all in need of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ to wash away our sins and redeem us from them.
Hesadanza
2 Nephi 25:23 "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
1. When does Christ's saving grace apply?
2.What is all you can do?
Hesadanza
My next question then is, have you denied youself of all ungodliness?
Yes, I can answer your questions. But first note that you cannot pull one verse of scripture out from all that God has revealed and expect to know the entire gospel.
1. "Come unto Christ", "Denying ourselves of all ungodliness" being "perfected in" Christ", and "love(ing) God with all our might, mind and strength" are the requirements for Christ's saving grace. How do we do that? It is rejecting sin, and doing His will, not our own will, and not the will of the world. Therefore, if we are to have Christ's saving grace apply to us, we must follow His commandments which He has given to us to accomplish the above requirerments.
2. Christ's saving grace applies when we obey His commandments, which is what we will do if we "love God with all (our) might, mind and strength." (See also John 14:15, and Matt. 22:37-38).
3. If you denied yourself of all ungodliness, you would look like Christ, which is what God has commanded of us. We are to be "perfected in him" and be "perfect in Christ." "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48).
Thank you for quoting from the Book of Mormon. It helps our understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Exodus 20
1And God spake all these words, saying,
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13Thou shalt not kill.
14Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15Thou shalt not steal.
16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his (donkey), nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Prophet
Thank you
Hokey...I think the reason why is because if you're quoting KJV, in verse 17 it uses the other word for donkey, which the administrator (presumably a bot) thinks you are cussing.
Hesadanza, my goal is not attacking you, but I would like to converse with you. With no malice.
Moroni 10:32 " Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strentht, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ..."
Hesadanza
could you answer these questions for me?
1. What are the requirements for Christ's saving grace in this passage?
2. When does Christ's saving grace apply?
3. What would your life look like if you denied yourself of all ungodliness?
Exodus 24:9 says " Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself." yes, they saw the Spirit of God...not a man.
on and on....God is a Spirit..and those that worship Him must worship Hiim in Spirit and Truth. John 4:24.
Debate ended.
It might be, but it keeps saying it is blocked because of abusive language. I have tried to post it 3 or 4 times. Maybe the administrator could post Exodus 20:1-17 for me.
13 million deceived people. I pray their eyes will be opened to the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
truthprevails,
You are right, but I did ask this question of Hesadanza, and I would like HIS answer.
To Hokey, you wrote - To the administrator.
Why can't I post Exodus 20:1-17, the Ten Commandments here. Is there an administrator that would please allow this post. I keep getting a message that this portion of scripture contains abusive language.
I guess what you are trying to post is too long....
Hi Hokey, there is no explanation. Moroni is a false book....
so God is a celestial, glorified, resurrected, and ever exalted man, the most Eternal Father in Heaven? And all those scripture you quoted...lets see...
Genesis 1:27 says "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Very true. He did create us in His image. We are spirits, just like Him. Our flesh is just a vehicle. It is not us, otherwise, it could be saved (which it cant)
Genesis 5:1 says "This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God." See previous explanation.
Genesis 9:6 sayd "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." see previous explanation.
Gensis 32:30 says "So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." Exodus 33:19 says "And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." What did Jacob see? A physical manifestation of God...I believe he saw Jesus. What? Jesus hadn't been born yet? Daniel 3:24-25 "Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."
Sorry. I know what the fruit of the Spirit is. It is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance (Gal. 5:22-23). I have felt these numerous times, and therefore I know it is of God.
Moroni 10:32 " Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strentht, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ..."
Hesadanza
could you answer these questions for me?
1. What are the requirements for Christ's saving grace in this passage?
2. When does Christ's saving grace apply?
3. What would your life look like if you denied yourself of all ungodliness?
Yes, and the fruits of an ever-growing Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with 13 million members, and a $1 billion in humanitarian aid around the world, and 60,000 missionaries are "woefully" correct too.
Also, if a spirit has witnessed to you regarding Mormon teaching, it is not the Holy Spirit. He cannot lie and He does not argue with Himself. Any such spirit as you described would be an evil spirit, like the one which deceived Joseph Smith.
Your first statement is simply not true. There were Bible prophets who were not called false prophets. And not one of them lived immoral lives. Unfortunately, your statement about fruit is woefully correct concerning Smith and Young. They lived such immoral lives of debauchery, their rotten fruit was all too evident.
There's no need to quote any more Mormon teaching which contradicts the Word of God. We already know it's not consistent with scripture.
To the administrator.
Why can't I post Exodus 20:1-17, the Ten Commandments here. Is there an administrator that would please allow this post. I keep getting a message that this portion of scripture contains abusive language.
No. I have not kept all the commandments, Hokey. But I am striving to keep them, every day. And when I make a mistake, I repent.
Know what? Ever since there has been a prophet on this earth there have been those that call them false prophets. Every single one. By their fruits we shall know them.
I know what the Holy Spirit has witnessed to me, and you will never be able to take that away.
B.H. Roberts once wrote about the "God is not man" argument from Numbers 23:19: "These passages simply present the contrast between man as he is now, and with all his imperfections on his head, and God ... The contrast noted in the scriptures ... is not between perfected men and God, but between very imperfect men — men who lie, and are changeable — and God; and since the Latter-day Saints do not hold that man while imperfect is God, or like God, or God like him, the argument ... based on the passages quoted, is of no force ... Clearly, the contrast is one of conditions, more than of natures, and at its very highest value is the contrast between a perfected nature and one not yet perfected" (Roberts, The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, 92–94).
Hesadanza,
Then have you kept ALL the commandments?
SORRY
Hesadanza,
Then have you keep ALL the commandments?
The Holy Spirit did not tell you that Mormon doctrine is true. He cannot lie and He does not argue with Himself.
Paul told the pastors of the early churches to "contend for the faith" and "expose false doctrine". Jesus also confronted the Pharisees about false doctrine. You're on the wrong end of that argument. It is the doctrine of LDS which is false and Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were false prophets who dictated blasphemous teachings and lived unbelievably immoral lives. It's shocking that they were able to deceive even one person.
The Bible clearly says, "God is not a man, that he should lie." Jesus said God is a spirit, and those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
There is no scripture in the Bible which says God is a man.
Again, Mormon teachings are unBiblical.
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." The commandments are not optional.
Again, we solemnly reject the utterly evil, false, man-made doctrine of the unknowable, unseeable, uncomprehensible, physically filling all space, God. Paul rejects that conception of God too (Acts 17:16-31)!
God is a celestial, glorified, resurrected, and ever exalted man, the most Eternal Father in Heaven!! (Gen. 1:27; Gen. 5:1; Gen. 9:6; Gen. 32:30; Ex. 24:10; Ex. 31:18; Ex. 33:11; Ex. 33:23; Num. 12:8; Matt. 3:17; Matt. 4:4; Matt. 17:5; Luke 24:39; John 14:9; Acts 7:56; Rom. 8:29; 2 Cor. 4:4; Philip 2:6; Philip 3:21; Heb. 1:3; James 3:9; 1 Jn. 3:2; Rev. 22:4; Mosiah 7:27; Ether 3:15; D&C 20:18; D&C 110:3; D&C 130:1; D&C 130:22; Moses 6:9; Abr. 3:11; Abr. 4:27; JS-H 1:17-20).
John 17:3 - "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Hesadanza: First of all, I am not mocking you, or spitting on you. I love the Lord God, He saved my life, a life of abuse, and hatred. I do not mock anyone's faith. We are all the people who mocked Jesus, spit on Him, that is each one of us; HE died for the sin of the world! Our Sin was placed on Him.
I surrendered my life to Him when HE revealed to me the love that He had for this fallen child. It was no church or any one man that reached out to me.
The Lord led me to some Christians through whom I learned what it truly means to be Christ-like. That I could be myself and not have to pretend that I could be good, or measure up to anyone's standards. God has standards, I look to Jesus and find I fall short, but the beauty of it is, that HE forgives that too, and His Holy Spirit convicts me of my sin and I turned to Him in repentence and His blood covers my sin.
Being with Jesus is the greatest blessing I have ever received. I don't have to prove anything, I am His child, simply because I asked Him to be Lord in my life. and He came in and went to work on me and I am a work in progress. I do not follow a church, or any man, I keep my focus on Jesus Christ; and yes I do fellowship with other Christians; we recognize that none of us is perfected in this life. But Jesus is perfecting us. What Jesus did on the cross is enough, there is nothing we can do to add to that! That is worked based faith.
We are saved to do good works, but those works do not save us. Hokey, where is the planet Kolob? Is this a serious belief that God lives on a planet? The GREAT I AM is THE ANCIENT OF DAYS is not residing on any little planet, HIS robe fills the temple, the EARTH is HIS footstool. What planet could contain HIM!!!! My FATHER IS MIGHTY GOD! :o) and yet HE resides in my heart! God is not confinded to any place, HE IS OMNISCIENT!! LORD GOD ALMIGHTY! Come soon Lord!
I'm glad we've had this discussion, as it gives people a sense of what Jesus must have gone through with the Pharisees and Jews who mocked, scourged, and spit upon Him. Your tactics of attack are the same the Pharisees used in His day. But I forgive you. Christ commanded us to forgive all men. Many of you know not what you do. So it's alright.
We don't know where Kolob is, annie.
Thank you anniefourjesus. You have your agency to believe what you want to. And so do I.
I believe the Bible to be the word of God, as it came from the hands of the original writers. I also believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I have knelt in prayer many times to ask God if it is true, and by His Holy Spirit I have come to know it is true.
OK!!!??? Where is Kolob??
Let me say this right here: God is no respector of persons! A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ, one who has given their life to Him and walks in obedience to Him. Jesus Christ is building HIS church and it is called "the body of Christ".
I have read recently "Beyond Mormonism" written by an ex-Elder and it was very informative. Who would know better than someone that has been there! I had prayed and asked the Lord to guide me to the truth in regard to mormonism and I was led to this book.
You can actually read it online (I've sent for a hard copy too) "Beyond Mormonism" Jim Spencer!
Interesting how many of the points taken here against Mormonism is exactly the ones in his book. Jesus Christ didn't come to set up a religion, HE came to set the captives free, and to restore man to a right relationship with The Father.
Do I fully understand The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, no I do not, but I do know that The Father is in The Son, and The Son is in the Father, The Holy Spirit comes to give Glory to both. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, that is Jesus Word.
As for The Scriptures being correctly translated. Get into Study, with prayer, and The Holy Spirit guiding you. He is our teacher, not any man! That too is God's Word.
Paul said, "Christ and Him crucified, this was all he needed to know".
Ask yourself these questions: Am I rightly related to Jesus Christ? Have I given my life to Jesus, repented of my sin, been baptized into The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, baptism shows that I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
Only God knows who truly belongs to Him. We do have to know what we believe and why we believe it. From what I have read at LDS this is not what I believe. I was once part of a church that believed they too were the "true church" and they had all the truth. This is dangerous.
Jesus warned us, many will come in my name, saying, Jesus is over there, Jesus is over there! Be careful that YOU are walking with Jesus Christ and not following men!
The fullness of The Gospel is in The Holy Bible and the book of mormon is a work of fiction.
Here's another one of Hesadanza's posts
One of our hymns states, "Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity, Find out the generation where Gods began to be? ... Or view the last creation, where Gods and matter end?"
If God is our Father, then yes, He has a father too. But there is only ONE God with whom we have to do, and whom we worship. 1 Cor. 8:5-6 states:
"5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
And mine:Thank you, here is the truth for all Christians to see, Mormons believe in many gods.
Thank you for sharing my posts in this forum too. That way I don't have to jump back and forth.
"God resides near a place called Kolob, yes. Just like you reside on planet earth, God must reside somewhere. We reject the false doctrine that God is incorporeal."
That wass Hesadanza's post from this article:
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071125/30217_Sidebar:_The_Bible_vs._Mormon_Beliefs.htm
Did Heavenly Father from Kolob have a father?
Hesadanza,
What on the planet Kolob?
Wait a second, I thought that we aren't going to receive crowns of glory after this life. I thought that we don't get to partake of the divine nature of God. I thought that we aren't heirs of God, and co-heirs with Christ. I thought that we don't get to become kings and queens. Why would they get crowns of glory then?
A crown of glory!
Yes, what a life's goal. To destroy people's faith. To tear down another Christian church. To ruin families. To distort, lie, and defame the work of the Lord. Great job Dr. Martin and Mr. & Mrs. Tanner. I'm sure they will receive their reward for such noble service.
http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Book_of_Mormon_and_the_Fulness_of_the_Gospel.html
Great page Hesadanza. It tries to refute Dr. Walter Martin. He along with people like Jerald and Sandra Tanner have done more to bring people out of Mormonism than any others.
Tanners' site:
http://www.utlm.org/
Walter Martin's site:
http://www.waltermartin.org/
"Joseph Smith said "the fullness of the gospel" was contained in The Book of Mormon. Why would you need any other scriptures"?
Please see:
http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Book_of_Mormon_and_the_Fulness_of_the_Gospel.html
Hesadanza
"Guess what maranatha7593. Joseph Smith did publish an official book that lists every one of ""his "sacred" prophecies and revelations. It is called the Doctrine & Covenants, and it is included in our canon of scripture."
Joseph Smith said "the fullness of the gospel" was contained in The Book of Mormon. Why would you need any other scriptures.
"an official book that lists every one of his "sacred" prophecies and revelations."
Not one of 'his "sacred" prophecies and revelations.' is in the BOM. Then how could it contain the fullness of the gospel?"
Surely. The followers of Jesus Christ that lived at his time must not have been Christians either then. They didn't have the Bible. They couldn't check to see if Christ's teachings were "Biblical". Peter, James, and John must not have been Christian. They couldn't check the Bible either for "Biblical" accuracy.
I guess the only "true" Christians are those that lived after the Bible was compiled and published.
hedanza...
why does everything need to be Biblical? Read my last post....
"Biblical, Biblical. Why does everything need to be Biblical"
Sadly, spoken like a true Mormon.
You have only confirmed the low view of the Bible which all Mormons at my door have ever expressed.
A true Christian cannot receive anything which is not Biblical. The Holy Spirit will not confirm it.
Guess what maranatha7593. Joseph Smith did publish an official book that lists every one of his "sacred" prophecies and revelations. It is called the Doctrine & Covenants, and it is included in our canon of scripture.
Biblical, Biblical. Why does everything need to be Biblical if God reveals it directly to his chosen and ordained servants, living prophets and apostles?
There was nothing Biblical in the day the Bible prophets wrote the books of the Bible. What were they basing their writings on? It wasn't the Bible. It hadn't been compiled yet.
Would you buy a used car from Joseph Smith? Check out the link in my last post.
What you believe is not Biblical. In other words, Mormons are not Christians. Many people don't understand that, as Mormons are ordinarily so fuzzy about that.
"Every true Mormon will testify that Joseph Smith was/is a true Prophet of God, yet I doubt if one Mormon in a thousand can accurately recite any 5 of this great Prophet's actual prophecies. Shouldnít that raise some eyebrows?? Wouldn't you think a church that bases its very existence on a latter-day-prophet would gladly publish an official book that lists every one of his sacred prophecies? Not the Mormons! For good reason!
Not when you understand that almost every prophecy Joseph Smith uttered failed to come to pass. Yet, over 7 million people place their eternal salvation on the line in their testimony that he was/is the one.... who reigns in courts on high...to plead their cause above.....NO! they are not singing about Jesus......but Joseph."
Source: www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/falseprophetsjs.htm
http://www.josephlied.com/
So Hesadanza, your motivation is to deceive Christians on this website into believing Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God?
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
At the very first link you posted, I saw this unBiblical teaching:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here in Latter-day Scripture, Adam, the "first man" and in fact, "all the children of men" are said to have been created spiritually in heaven before they were created naturally upon the earth. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that Adam, obtained the keys of the priesthood "in the Creation, before the world was formed." Other Latter-day Prophets have taught that Adam assisted in the creation or organization of the earth out of unorganized material, "When father Adam came to assist in organizing the earth out of the crude material that was found," taught Brigham Young, "an earth was made upon which the children of men could live."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NONE of this is Biblical.
Wait! Hold on! God is speaking to me! He's telling me to add more scripture! There's still so much He wants to tell us! yes....yes....Satan wasn't Jesus' only brother...there was another! Yes...his name is Clarence! He works at a Piggly-Wiggly in Kentucky! Seek him out and he will reveal to you the newest revelation of God and the TRUE plan of salvation which involves a large amount of ham sandwiches (no...God's not kosher), and another part to the crucifixion which was not to be revealed until the end of the 14th dipensation of glorious clamifortation.
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were false prophets. Their blasphemous teachings and immoral lifestyles were ample proof of that. God help those who've been deceived by them.
Are you saying those are not Mormon teachings?
In likewise fashion, the Book of Mormon prophets heard the Word of God and wrote it down. Hence it's agreement with the Bible.
I would direct you do any of the following sites for comments/explanations about Geer's statements:
www.fairlds.org
www.shields-research.org
ldsfaq.byu.edu
www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ
www.lds.org
www.mormon.org
Joseph Smith took whole chapters word for word out of the Bible, the book of Isaiah. Please explain this to me.
No, the Bible prophets and other writers did not plagiarize each other. They heard the Word of the Lord and wrote it down. Hence their agreement.
No comments/explanations about the unBiblical Mormon teachings revealed by Thelma Geer?
And I suppose all the prophets in the Bible plagiarized each other too. Otherwise, how did they all come to the same gospel truth?
Joseph Smith just took verses from from the Bible and some how convinced people that God had given them to him for his scriptures. Can anyone say plagiarize:
: to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source intransitive verb : to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source
Some Mormon teachings revealed by Mrs. Geer:
* Jesus was a polygamist
* The Holy Spirit is a man
* God is a polygamous married man
* Jesus and Satan are sexually begotten sons of God
* The Bible is a polluted, insufficient guide
As you can see, none of these doctrines agree with the Bible. Remember, Thelma Geer offered a vintage edition of the BoM to anyone who could disprove her statements, but no one ever offered to do so.
Ok. And so do many Bible scriptures don't agree with other Bible scriptures. So what are you saying?
The problem is, so many of the Mormon "scriptures" don't agree with the Bible, but contradict it.
From the first testimony at the website Hokey gave:
"I started reading the Bible. I began seeing strange verses in there; something that jolted me nearly into panic. Romans 3, Romans 4, Titus 3:5… verses about salvation by the grace of God! Simultaneously I started listening to various teachers on Christian radio. Why, they were all in Harmony! Joseph Smith had pronounced them all apostates; how could they be so familiar with Jesus Christ?
"You are saved only one way--when you the sinner meet Jesus Christ the Savior in true repentance, having faith in His blood shed, and in His finished work on the cross for you, to pay in full for all your sins, asking Him to be Lord of your life…" Then came Ephesians 2:8, 9. I sat there stunned. "Eternal life is a free gift!" I knew it was the truth. I looked up every scripture and suddenly my eyes were opened to the true salvation of God. Later I fell on my knees and asked God to give me His free gift of salvation. This was definitely not a "Kosher" thing to do in the Mormon Church, and if I thought I had trouble with Mormonism before, it was only child's play compared to what I was about to encounter. ...
Suddenly I was shocked into full awareness when I heard Ron Carlson say, "…before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me." Isaiah 43:10. When I got home I went straight to my Bible. There it was! Could it be? Then out leaped Isaiah 44:6, 45:5, etc.
Hokey. Yes you're right! Amen! Finally you understand. The Book of Mormon is speaking the same gospel truth as the Bible. It is the same gospel. It is the same God that revealed it. That is why it sounds the same. There is no other gospel.
Hesadanza
Don't most of those verses sound like the Bible written in King James English? How could "Golden Plates" written in Reformed Egyptian way before the English language ever existed be somehow translated into King James English? Or did Joseph just take the Bible and change the words a little bit, then put it in the Book of Mormon?
Not unless a prophet, seer, or revelator said it. No. Can you give me a reference?
I think the Book of Mormon pretty well speaks for itself. That is why I posted those verses. Have you tried reading them? Can you show me the dramatic false parts?
hesadanza...what about all these quotes from Joe Smith and all his minions that contradict what you are saying? Apparently, these things that were said by the great leader and creator of Moronism are recorded in writing.
Hesadanza, do you agree with that statement I was told by many Mormons, that the Bible will only take you through kindergarten but the BoM will take you through college?
I'm not quite sure what was your purpose in posting your scriptures, but to be honest, they mean nothing at all to me. Does the Bible mean anything to you?
2 Nephi 9:41 - "O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name."
Mosiah 3:17 - "And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent."
3 Nephi 31: 5-13 - "And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!
6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.
9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.
10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?
11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.
12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel."
Of course Thelma Geer was an ex-Mormon. How could she stay in it when she had learned the truth of what it taught?
I did read the Book of Mormon, years ago. From the very beginning, I had no witness in my spirit. Instead, the Holy Spirit warned me of the falsity of it.
Hokey: THANK YOU for the link with all the testimonies. The ones I've read already are powerful.
Thelma Geer WAS an ex-Mormon.
Why not ask those that actually are Mormon about the church?
"The Mormon doctrine is ever changing..." That is right! It is called continual modern-day revelation from God through living apostles and prophets.
I have a better place to start for a reader, how about the Book of Mormon. If it is supposedly so false, and against Christ's gospel, why not read it for yourself, and ask God and find out? I have. And I testify that it is true.
So you discount the word of a woman who grew up in Mormonism? The only reason I said WAS is because I believe she'd died since the last edition of her book was published.
Here are some facts about her book:
Thelma Geer has offered an original 1830 1st edition copy of the Book Of Mormon to anyone who can disprove the information in her book _Mormonism, Mama, and Me_. So far no takers. Her writing style is soft and not abrasive. She comes from a loving and caring perspective and feels that the information she covers in this book is important enough to stand up and speak in truth about the foundation of the Mormon religion. The Mormon doctrine is ever changing and the writings are continually edited and revised as to be faith promoting to its members. Many Mormon members have little knowledge of the actual facts concearning the foundation of their own religion. Thelma provides a good starting place for a reader. She includes a wonderful bibliography and some photo copies of some of the original writings from leaders of the church in the appendix in her book.
This woman knows/knew her stuff.
http://www.mormoninfo.org/news-info/testimonies
Here is a link to the testimonies of over 150 of those APOSTATES.
"WAS" is the key word. She is an excommunicated apostate. You will never get straight answers, facts, or the truth from an excommunicated apostate.
They can leave the church, but they can never leave it alone. Many people change faiths, from denomination to denomination, every day and never look back. But once a person has received a witness of the Lord's church, and then denied it, they will spend the rest of their lives fighting against it. Isn't that interesting? The reason is that once a person receives a testimony of the spirit, they cannot lose the memory of it. The spirit speaks directly to our heart and becomes a part of us.
"If you really want to know what Mormons believe, why not ask them?"
Thelma Geer WAS a Mormon. She grew up in a Mormon home, and loved her family dearly. It was a very hard thing for her to see the truth of the Bible and realize that Mormon beliefs only contradict it. If you haven't read her book, I encourage you to do so.
Mormons have come to my door often. They have often made this comment to me: "The Bible will take you through Kindergarten, but the Book of Mormon will take you through college."
I have a dear friend whose son is a Mormon bishop. He told her the same thing. She grieves over him and prays for him to come to know the Lord who is the true God.
Paul said, "If any man, or even an angel, comes to you with any other gospel, let him be accursed."
The gospel of Mormonism is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Of course, "Mormonism, Mama, and Me" a "A Loving and Thoughtful Expose on Mormonism" according to one Amazon reviewer. How nice of Thelma Geer.
If you really want to know what Mormons believe, why not ask them?
www.lds.org
www.mormon.org
You know, anti-Mormons make it pretty easy to stay on top of defending the Lord's work because they repeat the same arguments over and over again, ad infinitum. All we have to do is refer them to the mountain of LDS scholarly work that has already addressed those issues. Of course, for anti-Mormons, this scholarly work does not exist:
DNA and the Book of Mormon: http://fairlds.org/apol/ai195.html
Reformed Egyptian: http://fairlds.org/apol/ai091.html
A good book on Mormon beliefs, written by one who grew up in that faith, is _Mormonism, Mama, and Me_ by Thelma Geer. It's available at Amazon. I was able to get a copy through my local library.
: http://www.lhvm.org/dna.htm
This leads to a video titled "DNA vs the Book of Mormon". I would strongly recommend that any one who claims to be Christian, watch this video. In reading the Bible it is very evident that the Jews are God’s chosen people. After the time of Christ, about 70 AD, most Jews were driven out of their promised land and dispersed around the known world. Close to sixty years ago Israel became a nation after 1900 years of not being in the land of their fore fathers. People alive today have seen God's hand on these people. They have been the victims of hatred around the world. Yet as a people they have held on to their religion, many times at the cost of their lives. Today the Jews go around the world to find other Jews and bring them back to Israel, their promised land. These people they find have held on to their religious traditions for those 1900 years. Now through DNA testing these people can prove their Jewish heritage beyond a shadow of a doubt, the same type of evidence we use in a court of law. People are proven innocent or guilty based on DNA evidence alone.
Now, this brings us back to the issue of Native Americans having Jewish ancestors. As mentioned above, Jewish people have held on to their religious beliefs long after being driven from the land of Israel. The Book of Mormon claims to be the story of Jews, Jaredites, Lamanites, and Nephites, who at different periods, came across the ocean from the Middle East in ships, traveling thousands of miles and landing in the Americas.
The Quotes below come from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaredites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamanites
“The Jaredites grew to a civilization that exceeded two million people just prior to its destruction.[3] They finally destroyed themselves about the time Lehi and the other refugees from Jerusalem arrived in America”
“According to The Book of Mormon, the family of Lehi (a wealthy Hebrew merchant and prophet), the family of Ishmael, and Zoram traveled from the Middle East circa 600 BC to the Americas by boat. Some time after the death of Lehi (in the Americas), Nephi (Lehi's fourth son) overheard that his brothers were plotting to kill him, so he (Nephi) and his followers left and went into the wilderness. The followers of Nephi called themselves Nephites, though made up of several groups, such as the Jospehites, Jacobites, and Zoramites. The followers of Laman (Lehi's oldest son) were called Lamanites, though made up of Ishmaelites, Lemuelites, and various other groups of Nephites.[1]”
“The Lamanites became a larger portion of the population until, some time after AD 400, the Nephite people were destroyed in a series of large wars with the Lamanites.[5]”
From the Book of Mormon we find that these Jewish immigrates numbered in the millions. The Book of Mormon claims that the Lamanites are “among the ancestors of the American Indians.” So this raises some major questions.
1. If the American Indians have Jewish ancestry, why haven’t they returned to Israel just like the other Jews who have been spread around the world?
2. How come modern day Jews from Israel haven’t tried to prove the Jewish heritage of the American Indians and brought them back to their promised land?
3. Every where else around the world the dispersed Jews have held on to their religion as well as traditions from their Hebrew heritage. Where is this evidence among the American Indians?
The questions could go on and on and on, but the question that intrigues me most is this:
WHY WOULD ANY JEW WRITE HIS HOLY SCRIPTURE IN REFORMED EGYPTIAN ON GOLDEN PLATES? WOULD HE NOT HAVE WRITEN IN HEBREW?
And I have already explained that Christ's Second Coming has not already happened yet. That is a singular event which the entire earth will witness with their own eyes at the same time, when Christ comes to stay, to rule and reign for a thousand years.
Mosiah 3:17 - "And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent."
Yes, servent, there is much we can do for the Lord. If we love Him, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15).
HesadanzaMon Dec 03, 2007 1:06 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
You're funny Hokey. Obviously the work of God is not done. We are all still here, are we not? Christ's Second Coming has not happened yet. The Millenium is not done.
Christ's mortal life was what was "finished."
except according to mormonism when Jesus came back to joseph smith. Do you not see your very own contradictions? I agree that Jesus' second coming hasNOT happened yet. I will be called to Heaven when it does. However, mormons do not believe that, they say Jesus has came back a second time to joseph smith.
what was finished is the work of salvation. Christ's physical body was just a vessel for God's will to be accomplished. You miss so much in Jesus' life when you put empashis on your own work getting you to Heaven. Jesus' death on the cross is the only way to the Father. NOTHING YOU CAN DO WILL GET YOU THERE.
The church is still true. See, we have a testimony of the truth that is born of the spirit of God. It is His witness, and no manner of slander can deny the witness we have. Nothing you can say can make the church not true. God has testified of the truth to us, and we believe God before man.
Jesus said it was finished. His physical work on earth was done. he had accomplished what he came to do. so that part was finished. DUH!
Joseph Smith quote below
"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Mormonism isn't any sillier than any of the other religions invented by humans over the tens of thousands of years.
That's my prayer for you too, Hokey. But no one can get nearer to God as long as they put down instead of build up, destroy instead of build, mock instead of believe. Doing such is just kicking against the pricks.
Hesadanza
It has been interesting "calumny may defame" if that's what I've been doing. It would be fun to sit and talk with you and bwb sometime in person. My prayer for both of you is that your name is written in the Book of Life.
Revelation 20:15 (New King James Version)
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
I've got to get some work done today. But you can continue on your rant, and I can address more of your defamations later.
"calumny may defame"? Well, that is exactly what you are in the business of doing right now.
Calumny = a false and malicious statement designed to injure the reputation of someone or something
Defame = to harm the reputation of by libel or slander
You're funny Hokey. Obviously the work of God is not done. We are all still here, are we not? Christ's Second Coming has not happened yet. The Millenium is not done.
Christ's mortal life was what was "finished."
"calumny may defame,"
What's this?
"and the great Jehovah shall say, "THE WORK IS DONE"."
Jesus or "Jehovah" said on the cross "it is finished". His prophecy was a little after the fact by some 1800 years.
Joseph Smith also said, "No unhallowed hand will stop the work from progessing, persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assembly, calumny may defame, but the TRUTH of God will go forth boldly, nobly and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God are accomplished, and the great Jehovah shall say, "THE WORK IS DONE"."
We will see if that one comes to pass. Seems to be doing well so far.
Link to Joseph Smith's prophecy about the second coming:
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech14.htm#418
The Lord's Coming
In 1835 Joseph Smith prophesied that the coming of the Lord was near and that fifty-six years should wind up the scene. In the History of the Church, volume 2, page 182, we read as follows: "President Smith then stated ... it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and
418
419
go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene."
Joseph Smith later said that a voice once told him the following: " 'My son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years of age, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man.' I was left to draw my own conclusions concerning this; and I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live to that time, He would make His appearance. But I do not say whether He will make his appearance or I shall go where He is" (History of the Church, vol. 5, p.336).
On the same page Joseph Smith said: "There are those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes." Joseph Smith then proceeded to make a prophesy about the coming of Christ. Since the last six words have been deleted in the History of the Church (under the date of April 6, 1843) we cite the original source—i.e., Joseph Smith's diary, March 10, 1843—July 14, 1843: "... I prophecy in the name of the Lord God—& let it be written: that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old 48 years hence or about 1890...."
Klaus J. Hansen says that "in 1890 there was a widespread belief among church members that Joseph Smith's prediction of 1835, that fifty-six years would 'wind up the scene,' would be fulfilled" (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, p.76).
On October 14, 1886, Abraham H. Cannon recorded the following in his journal:
Thursday, Oct. 14th:—The following are words spoken by Apostel [sic] Moses Thatcher, at Lewiston, . . .
"It is my belief, that the time of our deliverance will be within five years; the time indicated being February 14th, 1891.... And that the man raised up will be no other than the Prophet Joseph Smith in his resurrected body.... the government will pass into the hands of the Saints, and that within five years. There will not be a city in the Union that will not be in danger of disruption by the Knights of Labor, who are becoming a formidable power in the land...." (A servant of God, holding the power and keys of the Holy Apostleship does not speak in this manner for mere pastime. There is more in these utterances than we are apt to attach to them, unless we are aided by the Spirit of God.) ("Daily journal of Abraham H. Cannon," October 14, 1886, BYU Library).
Under the date of January 23, 1833, Joseph Smith recorded the following in his History of the Church, volume 1, page 323:
419
420
"... my father presented himself,... I asked of him a father's blessing, which he granted by laying his hands upon my head, in the name of Jesus Christ, and declaring that I should continue in the Priest's office until Christ comes."
When the Twelve Apostles were first ordained in the Mormon church some of them also received the promise that they would live until Christ came: "The blessing of Lyman E. Johnson was,... that he shall live until the gathering is accomplished.... and he shall see the Savior come and stand upon the earth with power and great glory" (History of the Church, vol. 2, p.188).
William Smith's blessing stated: "He shall be preserved and remain on the earth, until Christ shall come to take vengeance on the wicked" (Ibid., vol. 2, p.191).
Heber C. Kimball and Orson Hyde received similar blessings, although Hyde's blessing has been falsified somewhat in modern printings of the History of the Church (see Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.188).
Of course none of the Mormon Apostles lived to see the Lord come, and Joseph Smith's statement that "fifty-six years should wind up the scene" did not come to pass.
Writing in 1838, Apostle Parley P. Pratt said the following: "Now, Mr. Sunderland.... I will state as a prophesy, that there will not be an unbelieving Gentile upon this continent 50 years hence; and if they are not greatly scourged, and in a great measure overthrown, within five or ten years from this date, then the Book of Mormon will have proved itself false" (Mormonism Unveiled—Truth Vindicated, by Parley P. Pratt, p.15; copied from a microfilm of the original at the Mormon church historian's library).
This tract was reprinted in the book Writings of Parley P. Pratt, but this entire prophecy was deleted without any indication.
The Lord's time is very different than man's (Abr. 3:4). To Him, His coming IS going to be quickly. In the Bible He also says that His coming was going to be quickly, and that was 2000 years ago (Rev. 22:7, 12, 20; 3:11)!
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold it cometh quickly, saith the Lord.
"until the day of the Lord come; for behold it cometh QUICKLY"
The day of the Lord would point to the second coming of Jesus Christ (which Joseph Smith said would happen in Missouri). So did the second coming happen quickly, did it happen during the civil war?
Obviously Not! Another FALSE prophecy!
Yes, it was a world war. Britain, France, and other countries were involved in the United States Civil War.
The war amongst "all nations" very well could have also been prophecy of World Wars I and II, which is even more impressive since that would have been 82 years before World War I.
This is the prophecy that Joseph Smith gave "about the civil war":
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
7 That the cry of the Saints, and of the blood of the Saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Saboath, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold it cometh quickly, saith the Lord.
" and then war shall be poured out upon all nations."
Was our civil war also a World War? Sorry Joseph missed it on this one too.
There is a whole laundry list of prophecies that Joseph Smith taught and preached that have come true. To read all of them, please see:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophecies.shtml
The most impressive is the prophesy of the Civil War in 1832, in which Joseph foretold of the details of the conflict a good 29 years before it happened.
Hesadanza,
"Joseph Smith and Brigham Young have also given many true prophecies that have come to pass. Do you care to share those? Of course not."
I can not find any, can you?
Was Peter an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ? Yes. Was he personally selected by the Lord? Yes. Was he a missionary? Yes. Was he an ordained servant of Jesus Christ? Yes. Did he preach the gospel of Jesus Christ? Yes. Did he deny Christ 3 times? Yes. Does that make him false? NO. Does that make anything and everything else that Peter said and taught and preached false? NO.
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young have also given many true prophecies that have come to pass. Do you care to share those? Of course not.
Hesadanza
"Peter denied Christ three times. Was he a false apostle too?"
No. He NEVER claimed to be a prophet either. A prophet can not give a false prophecy and still be a true prophet of God. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young gave many false prophecies.
A true prophet speaks truth. A false prophet tells lies.
Deuteronomy 18:21-22 (King James Version)
21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
By the way, Romney is going to give his "Mormon Speech" this week on Thursday:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i3rGlyYydDABDfjCwNHaECW-5WDgD8T9JVB00
There is Good News for Latter-day Saints:
http://goodnewsforlds.com/
Peter denied Christ three times. Was he a false apostle too?
Does every contradiction in the Bible make that prophet a false prophet? I could make a long list of them if you want me to.
No. Prophets are men too. They make mistakes. They have opinions just like the rest of us. The spirit will testify of the truth (1 Jn. 5:6).
Hesadanza
Elohim is a "title" too. It can also be used as a title of false gods as in the following verses:
1 Kings 18:26-27 (King James Version)
26And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
27And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god (Elohim); either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
1 Chronicles 10:8-10 (King James Version)
8And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his sons fallen in mount Gilboa.
9And when they had stripped him, they took his head, and his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to carry tidings unto their idols, and to the people.
10And they put his armour in the house of their gods (Elohim), and fastened his head in the temple of Dagon.
Hesadanza,
Brigham Young was prophet, seer, and revelator when he taught this Adam God doctrine. This has to make Brigham Young a false prophet simply from YOUR statement below:
"Like I have said, Brigham Young DID teach that Adam was God the Father. But as I have said, and many others too, it is false. It was wrong. As we have understood it, it was an error, and we don't believe it. It is not our doctrine. No person who has lived upon this earth has been perfect save Jesus Christ."
"The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it" a quote from Brigham Young
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/meadows1.htm#DOCTRINE
"There is not a man or woman who violates the covenants made with their God (in the Mormon temples), that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man or woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants." - From sermon by Brigham Young, March 16, 1856, Journal of Discourses, Vol. III., page 247.
"The doctrines of the Church affirm that the Atonement wrought by the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is efficacious for the sins of all who believe, repent, are baptized by one having authority, and receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. However, if a person thereafter commits a grievous sin such as the shedding of innocent blood, the Savior´s sacrifice alone will not absolve the person of the consequences of the sin. Only by voluntarily submitting to whatever penalty the Lord may require can that person benefit from the Atonement of Christ.
Several early Church leaders, most notably Brigham Young, taught that in a complete theocracy the Lord could require the voluntary shedding of a murderer´s blood-presumably by capital punishment-as part of the process of Atonement for such grievous sin. This was referred to as "blood Atonement." Since such a theocracy has not been operative in modern times, the practical effect of the idea was its use as a rhetorical device to heighten the awareness of Latter-day Saints of the seriousness of murder and other major sins. This view is not a doctrine of the Church and has never been practiced by the Church at any time." - Lowell Snow
Lord is also a title. It means one who is above another in rank or stature. Adam certainly was that, as the mortal father of the entire human race. Adam was given dominion and stewardship over all the animals of the earth, making him a "lord" over those creations (Gen. 1:26).
What he was NOT is our Heavenly Father, Elohim. Brigham Young never taught that Adam was Elohim. You won't find it.
Like I have said, Brigham Young DID teach that Adam was God the Father. But as I have said, and many others too, it is false. It was wrong. As we have understood it, it was an error, and we don't believe it. It is not our doctrine. No person who has lived upon this earth has been perfect save Jesus Christ.
To see the responses of Giuliani, Romney, and Huckabee to the question "Do you believe every word of the Bible?"
Check this youtube video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=vOSckbBpjCY
"Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord, as is plain,"
If the Mormon people were writing songs about Adam being earth's Lord, don't you think Brigham Young was teaching this? 1856 would have been while Brigham Young was prophet seer and revelator.
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech8.htm
In 1856 the Mormons published a hymnal which contained a hymn entitled, "We Believe In Our God." This hymn plainly taught that Adam was the father of Christ:
We believe in our God the great Prince of His race,
The Archangel Michael, the Ancient of Days,
Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord, as is plain,
Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.
We believe in His Son, Jesus Christ, who, in love
To his brethren and sisters, came down from above
To die to redeem them from death, and to teach
To mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.
(Sacred Hymns and Spiritual Songs for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Liverpool, 1856, p.375, as quoted in "The Position of Adam in Latter-day Saint Scripture and Theology," p.16.)
Blood atonement, Brigham Young did teach about this:
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/jofdvol3p243_249brighambloodatonement.htm#The%20blood%20of%20Christ
The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it.
On the other hand, if Hillary does become president...
...everyone will think fondly of the days that Pres. Bush was in office.
One thing is certain. If the Republican party does not back one candidate, and only one, whether that is Romney or not, Hillary Clinton will come to office, and then this country will really be in trouble.
Peter denied Christ three times. Does that mean that is was a false apostle? No. It means he was mortal, with all the weaknesses that accompany mortality.
I feel sorry for the people who are lead around by their nose by their preachers, and other people who votes for people because of their faith.
If Mr. Romney is the best candidate for the job I will vote for him and not worry about his Mormon faith, because I not voting for because of his religious belief I voting for him because he will be the best person for the job.
If you don’t vote for the person best suited for the job then I feel sorry for you brain dead people. You might awake up one morning and find your country under the control of the people we are fighting in the Middle East right now.
Sorry. None of those quotes say that Brigham Young said Adam (Michael) and Elohim were the same person.
I feel sorry for Randy Gavin. Apparently he felt that prophets are perfect. However, they are not. They make mistakes. They are mortal human beings. They have errors. They have their own thoughts and opinions, and they are entitled to them. Since when did any prophet not make one mistake, ever? The Bible too has contradictions. How are we to reconcile them? It is by the spirit.
We know when prophets and apostles speak the word of God when they speak by the power of the spirit and that spirit is felt by us. But even then, new doctrine must be accepted, ratified, written, and sustained by the authorized priesthood channels and general membership of the church.
The doctrine of "Adam-God" was never sustained by the priesthood of the church, and as such was never incorporated into the official doctrine of the church. In other words, the church, at large, NEVER believed it. It was never taught in Sunday School. It was never put into the church manuals. Many prophets and apostles have said since that it is false, as we have understood it. Therefore, it never was and never has been a part of Mormon belief. We don't believe it today.
Brigham Young did not lead the church astray, because the church did not follow him down that particular path of doctrine. The church didn't believe it then, and doesn't believe it now.
This is the link to Randy Gavin's story about how the Lord led him out of Mormonism.
http://goodnewsforlds.org/bios/randy-gavin.html
This is his story below:
Randy Gavin
Randy Gavin I was born and raised a Latter Day Saint. My folks were good people. I had good people for siblings. I had good people for friends. I was active in the LDS Church in every way possible, which culminated in serving as the Stake Mission President in Salt Lake Stake the oldest stake in the church.
Then came a fellow from California, John Henry Yount, broadcasting into Utah a challenge : " I will give one thousand dollars to anyone who can prove that Brigham Young did not teach that Adam was God." This was the second time that this foul and evil doctrine "theory" had come to my attention.
While serving as a co-zone leader in the Cumorah Mission of the LDS Church at the age of 20. I had been walking along a country road with my companion, a likable fellow from Cashe County Utah, when a tri-folded paper blew across the road. I picked it up and read it "Did you know that Brigham Young taught that Adam was God?" My companion had heard of it before and said it was an apostate thing, throw it away. I could not litter. I looked up the references in the Journal of Discourses as soon as occasion permitted. No misquotes. I wondered what to make of it.....I decided it was just old 1800's flowery talk. I went on at great cost to my future wife and family.
The denying of leadership opportunities and full fellowship to a whole race of people was another issue that I passed on, believing that it was beyond me to understand, even though I read all that the leaders put out on the subject. In 1978 that race of people were granted leadership opportunities with full fellowship and participation and the change was said to be a revelation by some and by others it was called an agonized over policy change. Whatever it was I was greatly relieved. However when that man John Henry Yount took it upon himself to issue his challenge regarding Brigham Young's doctrine of God I was at a loss. President Kimball came out with a statement in the church news. 'Brigham Young did not ever teach that Adam was God.'
At almost the same time Apostle Bruce R. McConkie's letter to a BYU professor was being passed around by people in the know. I was not in the know. A friend and Stake high councilman lived across the street from us. I told him that I was going to take apart this John Henry Yount and take his thousand dollars. He seemed concerned and told me that he had something that I should see. It was Bruce R McConkie's letter admitting that Brigham Young did teach that Adam was in fact God the Father. The professor was being threatened with excommunication if he did not stop talking about it to folks around Utah Valley.
After verifying that the letter was real I went back to the source documents including the Journal of Discourses and the Deseret News speeches that Brigham Young had corrected for publication. This time I was open to find the truth of the matter. I wept at the deception that people whom I had regarded as honest, had perpetrated upon me and my family.
Brigham Young in fact was a man who claimed to be a Prophet but ultimately did not know who God was. He was taught by Joseph Smith. It wasn't just the lying to me by the church and President Kimball, it was the undoing of the mystique that we had prophets and apostles who would not lead us astray. It turns out that Brigham Young led the church astray about God for at least 25 years of his ministry. I had taken all the seminaries and Institute classes and should have been told such an important item of history in the church.
Many things happened to bring me to the foot of the cross where I left my burden. It has been a pleasure to learn of the Creator of the Universe and His pursuit of me in my life, the life that he gave me. He has given me a new life and it is not a life about me, but a life about his work to save men and women by the finished work of Jesus on the cross. I am so relieved as I think it all through, that God is not a man, not a creature in the Universe, but rather the Creator of the Universe. And He loved me first. And He sought me. And He bought me. And I am and will be eternally grateful to Him. I will make no praise to a man who presumes to become a God. I will praise God Almighty Who became man to save me
Angela Haisten's Testimony Out of Mormonism to Christianity
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AS7_KUi-m0w
Not Created of the Dust of This Earth
In a sermon delivered in 1852, Brigham Young stated: "When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body... . He helped to make and organize this world" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.50). Brigham Young also taught: "You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; ... I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do [sic]," (vol. 2, p.6). "Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not from the dust of this earth. He was made as you and I are made, and no person was ever made upon any other principle" (vol. 3, p.319).
Rodney Turner, of Brigham Young University, adds the following comment concerning this matter: "Apparently President Young means that Adam was provided with a physical body through the normal pattern of conception, embryonic development, and birth, since that is [the] method by which 'you and I are made'" (The Position of Adam in Latter-day Saint Scripture and Theology," M.A. thesis, BYU, August 1953, p.20).
The Only God with Whom We Have to Do
Brigham Young stated: "He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.50). In the book Women of Mormondom, page 196, we read: "When Brigham Young proclaimed to the nations that Adam was our Father and God, and Eve, his partner, the Mother
198
199
of a world—both in a mortal and celestial sense—he made the most important revelation ever oracled to the race since the days of Adam himself." The reader will also remember that we quoted this statement from the "Minutes of the School of the Prophets": "...Prest Young ... says that Adam is our God—the God we worship—that most of the people believe this...."
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech8.htm
$1,000
"who can prove that Brigham Young did not teach that Adam was God."
This challenge brought Randy Gavin out of Mormonism. Randy Gavin was the former Stake Mission President in Salt Lake Stake the oldest stake in the church.
The following quote comes from his story,
Then came a fellow from California, John Henry Yount, broadcasting into Utah a challenge : " I will give one thousand dollars to anyone who can prove that Brigham Young did not teach that Adam was God." This was the second time that this foul and evil doctrine "theory" had come to my attention.
read the rest of Randy Gavin's story here:
http://www.goodnewsforlds.org/bios/randy-gavin.html
Is Adam Elohim? No. Brigham Young didn't teach that either. Give me one reference or quote where he stated that Adam (Michael) is the same individual as Elohim. I don't think you'll find it, because I haven't found it either.
Brigham Young was a smart person. He knew perfectly well that Michael and Elohim were two different individuals. He never said Michael was Elohim. So why did he teach the so-called "Adam-God theory", in which he stated that Adam was "God the Father" (note a very distinct difference to saying Michael=Elohim)? We don't know why he taught it. President Young did not live long enough to explain what he meant by it, or to reconcile it with the other teachings of the Church, scripture, and gospel. Unfortunately, until we pass through the veil and have a chance to ask him, or have further revelation from God, we will not know what he meant by it.
In all probability Brigham Young was wrong. Even prophets and apostles are fallible. Christ was the only perfect person to live on this earth. Prophets are mortal human beings, with their own agency, thoughts and opinions. That is why we are given the holy spirit to lead and guide us and give us discernment between truth and error. President Kimball and Elder McConkie later noted that the "Adam-God theory", as you have interpreted it, is false. President Woodruff said that Young was expressing his personal opinion. That interpretation of the doctrine was never ratified and sustained through the appointed priesthood quorums and general membership of the church.
As such, it is NOT the doctrine of the LDS church. We don't believe it today. We believe Elohim is God the Eternal Father, the father of our spirits. And Adam is Michael, the father of the human family in the flesh. These doctrines Brigham Young himself also taught many many times.
But that doesn't make Brigham Young a false prophet either. There are many contradictions in the Bible. Does that make those prophets false? No. Does that make the Bible false? No. It means they were human, with all the frailties and weaknesses associated with mortality. Even Nephi admitted he wasn't perfect (1 Ne. 19:6). The Spirit will testify of what is true. It is by the Spirit that we can witness when prophets and apostles speak the word of God.
Hokey
I hope after reading my previous post you know why we say it is important for people to read the Book of Mormon. So much of what is misunderstood is better answered by the Holy Ghost than us.
Hokey
No, Adam is not God. But you, again, bring up a good point. Can what was understood 150 years ago be used today to represent current understanding? I don't think so in every case. Prophets are entitled to make mistakes too. No one is perfect. Unless it has a "Thus saith the Lord" attached to it, it may be just speculation or represent the understanding of the time. Brigham Young and others said things that later we discovered were just their own opinions. Sometimes things are atrtributed to them that were not what they said or were mistakes in transcribing. There were no tape recorders back then. Even if it is accuratly transcribed, such as in a signed letter, it would be advantagous for us to ask the writer if he still believed what he wrote after the passage of time.
We saw that happen in a book a few decades ago, written by a general authory, called Mormon Doctrine. At first it was held as an authentic view of Church understanding and teachng. Later, however, it was edited and revised because the author did not ask his other authortative bretheren to review it before it was published. There were many inaccuracies in it. I don't know about the statement you attribute to Brigham. Today we are admonished to pray for a confirmation even if statements on doctrine or policy comes from general authorities. Are we absolutley right on everything all the time? Certainly not. We are a work in progress.
One of the main tenets of our doctrine is that God will not do for us what we can do for ourselves. That means everyone. Revelation can come in many forms, but most of the time it is just a sense of something. I am sure you have had that feeling too. I think everyone has. We are told to research the subject and study and ponder it to get a real sense of what it says and means. Then go to the Lord and ask if what we understand is true and accurate. If it is we get a warm type of feeling. It is sometimes described as a feeling of knowing or intelligence. If we are not right a sort of fog or forgetfulness comes over us. Seldomly is it brought by a heavenly messanger or seen in a vision.
The key to understanding inspiratrion is to live according to the principles of the Gospel in order to keep the lines of communication open. The Holy Ghost can not dwell in an unworthy person. I suppose you can say it is like writng a report or letter before you get all the information. Your final draft has had some editing. Sometimes it comes as powerfully as a jolt. We hear of people getting a premonition or dream in the night of some impending doom or disaster that requires them to do something quickly. This, according to my underatanding, is the Holy Ghost at work. I have no idea if this fits what some of these long dead writers experienced or not. But it is better to have a living prophet than a dead one.
Was Adam Heavenly Father (Elohim)? That is what Brigham young taught.
yes,,,the great apostasy. Brought to you by Joseph Smith and the letter "M". have a good eternity and don't forget to tip your waitress...
But curiosity is killing me....pray tell, what scriptures could you mean? Please tell me...I'm dying to change affiliations...the one I'm in now is getting boring....
ForHim:
First - the OT, NT, and BOM all support each other. Why do you think they don't? They all testify of God, Jesus Christ, and the gospel of salvation.
Second - Do you realize that God's word has been written over thousands and thousands of years? The Bible wasn't written in a day. Prophets since Adam have been writing, and some of their writings have been gathered into the book we know today as the Bible. The Bible itself speaks of other valuable scripture that is not contained in the Bible. What about those? The Bible itself also speaks of an apostasy that would occur after Christ's crucifixion, but before the Second Coming (2 Thes. 2:3, see also Amos 8:11-12).
Third - The Old and New Testament prophesied the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. I can give you some references if you like. Each of these books of scriptures testifies of the others.
Fourth - you can vote for whomever you please. You have your free agency.
As for God (Elohim) and Jesus (Jehovah) issue. Both of these individuals can rightly say that they are God, for they are both members of the Godhead, equal in power, principle, authority, likeness, doctrine, word, and deed. When Jehovah speaks and says, I am God, he is right. When Christ speaks and says "I am", he is right. When God the Father speaks and says "This is my beloved Son...hear ye him", he is right (Matt. 17:5). In fact, this is one place where we have one of the very few accounts of words directly from the Father, for most revelation to man has come through the Son, Jesus Christ (Jehovah), acting under direction of the Father through divine investiture of authority. Christ (Jehovah) has the authority to speak and act in the name of the Father. That is why there is often confusion as to who is speaking. Most of the time it is our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, as he was known in his spiritual state before coming to earth to obtain a body of flesh and bone.
JLF--
I believe the Bible when it says that it is the inspired word of God. Therefore, it can stand on its own and supports all other Scripture. this is why I would be able to witness to a Jew with just the OT, it speaks of the NT. However, neither the OT or NT support the bom.
Secondly, God is big enough to protect His Word which He has done since it was first wrote. There are no new revelations and His word has never been lost.
Third, my statement regarding Gov Romney was he, as a Morman, said he believed the Word of God, if that is so then there should not be an argument using the OT and NT to reason why the BoM is really inspired.
Fourth, I have been called a lot of things, but never a democrate. Personally, I do not believe a person can be a Democrat and a Christian due to the party platform on abortion. No sir, I am a Born Again Christian that votes for candidates that line up with Scripture, e.g. not Gov Romney.
ForHim - I was being completely facetious in my comments about the "10 plagues of Egypt", etc., and they were directed at FT's sad comments about the Book of Mormon (look back a few comments).
Of course Mormons believe in the Bible. We believe in every single one of those miracles. We also believe in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. My point was, things are not always what they seem on the surface. Making attacks such as FT did on the Book of Mormon could be made just as readily on the Bible, and many have done just that, including Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. Does that make the Bible untrue? No. Likewise, it does not make the Book of Mormon untrue.
Hokey
You ask really good questions.
Are Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Ghost the same being and is there any foundation to beleive the LDS views could possibly hold water? Well, let's look at what Christ said.
John 5: 19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what hea seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."
John 5:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. "
John 6:38 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."
Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none agood but one, that is, God:"
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I ago unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
John 15:24 " If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father."
Hokey
Excellent question. God the Father (Elohim which means the higher God) Christ and the Holy Ghost are one in purpose, mind and intent, but are still seperate beings.
ForHim
You said "howabout we stick to Scripture (that is the OT & NT) when making an assertion?"
Why would we want o discuss these things with only part of the available canon? I underatnd you don't believe the B of M. That is fine. But we have addiitonal things to bring to the discussion that is important to the understanding the Gospel. Just because you don't beleive it doesn't make untrue or not for the discussion. There are others who may be following what we say that may be influenced and have thier minds changed in some small way.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the LDS teach than Elohim is Heavenly Father and Jehovah is the Son of Heavenly Father or Jesus. If this is true how can the following verses be explained?
1 Kings 8:60 (King James Version)
That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD [Jehovah] is God [Elohim], and that there is none else
Thus Jesus is God.
Deuteronomy 4:35(King James Version)
Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim]; there is none else beside him.
Thus Jesus is God
Deuteronomy 4:39 (King James Version)
Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim] in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
Thus Jesus is God
Isaiah 44:6 (King James Version)
Thus saith the LORD [Jehovah] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [Jehovah] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God [Elohim].
No God beside Jesus.
Isaiah 45:5 (King James Version)
I am the LORD [Jehovah], and there is none else, there is no God [Elohim] beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Jesus none else, no God beside Jesus.
Psalm 100:3 (King James Version)
Know ye that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim]: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Again Jesus is God.
Jehovah is Elohim.
ForHim
You ask a good and salient question when you asked what the B of M is supposed to do. It is another testament of Christ's divinity. It provides information that has been lost over the centuries that is critical to understanding the Gospel. It provides answers to such things as why a good and loving God would send his children to earth and then consign them to hell for eternity through no fault of their own. You know not everyone had a chance to hear the gospel and be baptized. God's plan of salvation makes it possible for every man, woman and child to have an honest and equal chance to be taught by authorized missionaries and be baptized by proxy here on the earth. This is one of the plain truths removed from the bible either accidentally or deliberately. There are others. But you would not know of this if all you had was the incomplete canon. There are also at least seventeen books that Christ quotes references that are not in the bible. If they were good enough for Him to quote from are they not appropriate for us? But just because these things have been removed from the bible doesn't make the rest of it false to Mormons or in any way denigrate what is still there. There are some parts that are allegorical and some that are not translated accurately.
You asked why Romney hesitated on the bible question the other night. Previously he said he did not want to discuss doctrine while running for office. It distracts from the campaign by opening up these other doctrinal questions. It doesn’t look to me like he is equivocating on his beliefs. He is just trying to balance his fundamental belief that the bible is the word of God without getting into the doctrine debate. I would have done the same thing. Now some want to argue points of theology with him and that is OK, but not during the campaign. That is not OK.
I would like to know what horrible thing you think a Mormon president is going to do? So far, the only things I have heard from those that choose to answer is that God may not answer his prayers. I assure you God does answer Mormon prayers. He answers everyone’s prayers, even Jews and heretics alike. Some say that a Mormon president would give status to a heretical religion and enhance conversions. Well, it didn’t seem to happen in Massachusetts or Michigan when Romney Sr. was governor there. It doesn’t seem to have happened because Harry Reed is majority leader in the Senate. It didn’t happen in Oregon because of Senator Smith or in Arizona because of the Udall family. So that argument doesn’t hold water either. No sir, I think you are a Democrat just wanting to stir up trouble. If I am wrong, let me know.
BTW--I have participated in the baptism of most of my children and I am not a pastor.
RB--
howabout we stick to Scripture (that is the OT & NT) when making an assertion?
If I as a Christian was to witness to a Jew I would not use the NT, but the OT because he understands it as inspired and a Holy Book. if you believe that the OT & NT are the Word of God (as Gov Romney has stated) you should have no objection to this. That will save us running into what man thinks and relying on a Holy God.
BTW--I have been to Morman services and have not found the truth. I encourage you to search the OT and NT--your eternity depends on it.
When commenting, please address these questions:
1. Is the Israel Museum wrong that First Century Christians practiced baptism by immersion by the father of the family?
2. Is the Israel Museum wrong that local church leaders were a lay ministry?
3. Is Clement of Jerusalem wrong that Jewish temple ordinances were practiced by Christians until 350 A.D.?
4. Is Dr. Bart Ehrman wrong that the Nicene Creed was based on faulty translations from the earliest Greek New Testament writings?
5. Was St. Athanasius of Alexandria (Eastern Orthodox) wrong, regarding theosis, when he wrote, "The Son of God became man, that we might become God. "
6. Did Early Christians believe in an embodied God; was it neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit?
7. Do you have proof that the Cross was used as a common Christian symbol prior to the Fifth Century?
How could Joseph Smith, an ill-educated farm boy, know these elements of the First Century Christian Church?
Turning to modern-day Mormons,
1. Was George Barna's poll wrong when he found that twice as many Mormons as mainstream Catholics and Protestants believe that Jesus Christ is divine?
2. Have you found a dictionary with the primary definition of a Christian other than “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”?
3. Have you found a poll that found that Evangelical children display Christian characteristics more frequently then Mormon children?
And do you dispute that Roger Williams and Martin Luther both wrote that Christ's true church wouldn't be found by Reformation, but rather by Restoration by revelation?
I look forward to your comments.
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article http://mormonsarechristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination. Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”
Perhaps the reason the pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is to protect their flock (and their livelihood). It is encouraging that Paul Weyrich, Wayne Grudem and Bob Jones III, (along with Jay Sekulow and Mark DeMoss) have rejected bigotry and now support Mitt Romney on the basis that he is the most moral candidate with the best qualifications.
Riddle me this:
If the OT is the fortelling of Christ, the Gospels tell of His earthly ministry, and the rest of the NT further expand on Him, what part does the Book of Morman have????
Fact is, it does not and there is not an argument to be given!
Regarding Hesadanza's comments: He has to believe that 10 plagues came upon Egypt including rivers turning to blood, hail and fire falling from heaven, and complete darkness in the land for three days. He has to believe that Christ turned water into wine and raised people from the dead...."
I thought that Mormans belief the Bible? If so, this takes Romney out of the race as will for lack of Critical thinking Skills.
If not, then in fact as is the truth, Mormans are not Christians, but rather duped by Smith and Young into believing in a cult!
The Book of Mormon truly is another testament of Jesus Christ. 101 names or titles of Christ appear 3925 times in the Book of Mormon's 6607 verses. On average, a name or title of Christ appears once every 1.7 verses.
RE: Mormons=Christians?
"The Book of Mormon," Helaman 3:
35 Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God.
RE: Mormons=Christians?
"The Book of Mormon," Helaman 5:
12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.
[emphasis added]
FT
"In order to be a temple-recommend holding Mormon, Mitt Romney has to believe the a thriving society of Christians dominated the Americas for nearly 1,000 years, had horses and chariots, steel weapons, grew European crops and held democratic elections. He has to believe Joseph Smith, Jr., could read and interpret Egyptian, and didn't fancy young girls. He has to believe that our sun draws its power from a star called Kolob and that American Indians are descended from Hebrews.
If Romney can believe all those things which have been proven factually false, fine for him. But I don't want him as president. The president must have more readily apparent critical thinking skills."
Your understanding of these things is substantially wrong. You can't take a few things out of context without foundation and come to a accurate and logical conclusion. If you have questions, I will be glad to answer them in context with proper foundation. You can still take exception with them afterwards but at least you have a better understandingf of the subject.
CMA60
I suppose I sometimes get exercised by what I read and hear about my beliefs. Almost always, non-Mormon commenter’s get it wrong. Almost always. Even after the information is available for anyone whose is interested. If you have a computer you can get it right from the horse's mouth if you want. But, if all you want is the short hand abbreviated version, we in the general membership try to provide. I think those who ask legitimate questions should get a legitimate answer. I try to do in my case. But I still hear comments about things people have no idea about. They cherry pick or take out of context or fail to provide foundation for tier conclusions. If you, for example, want to know about what is really in the Book of Mormon, why don't you read it?
I can take a lot of time and do research about the questions you ask, but there are people who have already done so and are far more adept at answering your questions. Especially those that require foundation, such as horses, chariots in the Book of Mormon and the like. The DNA question has been addresses by BYU geneticists. But you never hear of what they say on the matter. These are world class scientists. Do you know anything about the subject? I certainly don't. So, ask the experts.
It is all too easy for some to cherry-pick things they think are titillating and sure to arouse controversy. But they never seem really to want to know the whole story. They denigrate our beliefs because they are different from theirs, if they have any at all. But they never put any effort into understanding what they criticize. One religious commentator once told an LDS Church official that "For a little church, you sure have a big theology". So it is. And it can't be adequately explained in thirty seconds or a couple of paragraphs. We can explain it if you if you are interested. But it cannot be really understood without the aid of The Holy Ghost. This is not just another man-made doctrine.
In order for Mike Huckabee to be a Baptist he has to believe an old man parted the Red Sea and that thousands of people crossed on dry ground. He has to believe that 10 plagues came upon Egypt including rivers turning to blood, hail and fire falling from heaven, and complete darkness in the land for three days. He has to believe that Christ turned water into wine and raised people from the dead. He has to believe that a flood once covered the entire earth, and that a family survived in a boat. He has to believe that bushes spontaneously burst into flame, rods turn into serpents, people turn into salt, food falls from heaven, the sun can be stopped in the sky, that lions become pacifists, people can be healed of leprosy, blindness, and deafness, and that venomous snake bites won't harm you.
Wow. If Huckabee believes all those things, I can't see how he has any critical thinking skills. We need a president who is smarter than that...
I'm always amazed at the amount of hatred that certain individuals display towards my religion. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I have even heard of some religions spending time at their pulpits trying to prove why my beliefs are false. I invite everyone, even those spun up in hatred, to join with us in Sunday worship to see for yourselves what we believe.
We are counseled never to belittle other churches for their beliefs and I would hope that someday, that favor is returned in kind. My faith is based on my belief that Jesus Christ is my Savior and that if I follow His teachings, I will have the opportunity to return to live with Him.
I believe that there are very good people out there from all faiths who try to live up to their beliefs, who spend their time trying to uplift and to serve instead of wasting their time trying to belittle others and their faith.
Thanks for reading, hope you will visit us to see for yourselves. I will continue to go with friends of other faiths to their church functions as well, I see a lot of good things happening there too.
2 Nephi 9:28 -
"O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish."
In order to be a temple-recommend holding Mormon, Mitt Romney has to believe the a thriving society of Christians dominated the Americas for nearly 1,000 years, had horses and chariots, steel weapons, grew European crops and held democratic elections. He has to believe Joseph Smith, Jr., could read and interpret Egyptian, and didn't fancy young girls. He has to believe that our sun draws its power from a star called Kolob and that American Indians are descended from Hebrews.
If Romney can believe all those things which have been proven factually false, fine for him. But I don't want him as president. The president must have more readily apparent critical thinking skills.
RE: Mormons=Christians?
"The Book of Mormon," Mosiah 3:
17 And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of <b>Christ</b>, the Lord Omnipotent.
18 For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy; but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of <b>Christ</b>, the Lord Omnipotent.
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of <b>Christ</b> the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.
There's a webpage right here at this site which contrasts Biblical teaching with Mormon beliefs:
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071125/30217_Sidebar3A_The_Bible_vs._Mormon_Beliefs.htm
Mormons have come to my door many, many times. When I've told them I am a Christian and have given them my testimony, they have become very hostile. More than one has said, "The Bible will take you through Kindergarten, but the Book of Mormon will take you through college."
I have a dear Christian friend whose grown son heads a Mormon stake, and he has told her the same thing many times. To me, that unfortunately says it all.
If you think Hillary has any credibility, whatsoever, you have been duped by the Clinton political machine.
CMA60 - Methinks you are a bit wrong. I too have discussed, at length, the doctrines of Mormonism and have found that they are different than mainstream Christianity today, because mainstream Christianity has strayed from the teachings of Jesus Christ. Some 3rd and 4th century wise men thought they knew more than Christ, and so they instituted doctrines and beliefs into Christianity that are still not found anywhere in the Bible, such as the all-in-one Trinity.
Is a contrary view allowed in any Church? If anyone adheres to a doctrine and a belief of a church, any other belief to the contrary is apostasy. That's the definition of the word.
We too teach that we can know the truth of scripture by the witness of the Holy Ghost (Moroni 10:4). So that isn't a difference.
We too believe in God the Eternal Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. In fact, it is our first article of faith. So no difference there.
Joseph Smith does not hold the keys of the kingdom any more than any other prophet has throughout the history of the earth. Jesus Christ holds the ultimate authority and ownership of all the keys of the kingdom, and they are used exclusively under His direction. God has always delegated His authority and keys to man. The Bible wouldn't exist today if it weren't for the multitudes of prophets that were called by God since Adam to proclaim His gospel. No man takes this honour unto himself (Heb. 5:4).
Mormons aren't "the same kind" of Christian as others are. You are right. But we are Christian. Since when are any persons of different denominations the same? No one has claim to a monopoly on Christianity. Anyone who believes in Christ and follows His teachings is a Christian.
And remember, scripture is NOT for private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). It was never meant to be. That is why we have living prophets and apostles, who receive revelation from Christ, and teach us what the word means.
There are far worse problems with Romney than him being a Mormon. He has flip-flopped more times than a hotdog in a convenient store. He tries to distinguish himself by lying about not having come from a political background. He was elected senate in 1994. His mother ran for senate in 1970 and advocated pro-choice as Republican. Romney is not just a Mormon, he is a liberal Mormon. I would personally rather vote for Juliani, at least I know what he stands. Hillary has more credibility in my book. If you want to know what the people of Mass think, check out:
http://massresistance.org/romney/
How much do YOU know about Mitt?
http://massresistance.org/romney/quiz/MittRomney20.pdf
I don't see a better contender than Huckabee. Duncan Hunter hasn't gotten enough momentum or I would vote for him. Huckabee is the best choice. He may not be perfect, I may not agree with him 100% of the time, but I trust him.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints posts its official policy of political neutrality on its web site for all to examine. Go to lds.org, click "news and events," "newsroom," and on the left side of that page, under "public issues," "political neutrality."
The Church takes its neutrality seriously -- I hear this statement read over the pulpit before every election.
Not only does the LDS Church not support any candidate, whether or not he belongs to the Church, but it does not seek to influence or control elected officials who are members. Senate majority leader Harry Reid (D) and senator Orrin Hatch (R), both believing, observant Latter-day Saints, are dramatic proof of that policy.
I only wish other churches would practice equivalent political neutrality. Religious partisanship is the actual "Mormon problem" that Romney has: those who would undermine the Constitution and turn our nation into a theocracy know that Romney has always been his own man and will not be controlled by any pressure group.
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr'gmail'com
How can this be made a big deal of when we already have a State Senatorial representative in Minnesota that wished to be sworn in with his hand on the Koran instead of The Holy Bible,...A book that actually has a passage referring to Jews and Christians to be of like "Pigs and Apes"...This just another shade of red,...making it no better or no worse,....its still the color "RED"...
To JLF - Methinks you do protest too much. I have discussed, at lenght, in an orderly way the doctrines of Mormonism and have discovered they are very different than Christianity according to the bible. Mormons always talk about believing the bible "as far as it is translated correctly. Yet, you must believe according to the interpretation of the Mormon church. A contrary view is not tolerated. It is possible to know "the" correct interpretation of scripture, if you did deep enough and listen to the Holy Spirit of God. Your God comes from another planet. Our God has always existed in the form of The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Your founder, Joseph Smith, holds the keys to the kingdom and gives or withholds eternal life according to his own whim. Our God gives eternal life, through faith in Jesus Christ according to His own choice; he doesn't delegate it to a man.
Don't get me wrong. I really do like Mitt Romney. Just don't try to pass him off as the same kind of Christian as Mike Huckabee appears to be. I may vote for him because I do believe he has the same values I have. I do hope he is done waffling about abortion and same sex marriage though.
We've had our own scoundrels who have tried to pass themselves off as true believers (just turn on the TV any time and you'll find one or two of them who are identified by Jude as apostates).
The important thing for you or me to do is to try to discover what scripture says and means and not leave the interpretation to someone else. We will each be held responsible for what it really says.
We must all keep searching for truth and we will find it.
“Mormons spend two years of their lives as missionaries, preaching an anti-Christian doctrine,” said Iowa resident and Huckabee volunteer Barbara Heki, 51, according to the New York Times. “I don’t want someone out there, if I can help it, who’s going to be acting on an anti-Christian faith as the basis of their decision making.” Barbara Heki.
First, most Mormons do NOT go on a mission. Those that do preach that Jesus is the Christ. Somewhere along the line this woman has been told God doesn't answer Mormon prayers. Where in the world did she get this? I know this is what she believes but if her pastor is telling her this kind of thing then she ought to have enough sense to know he is leading her down the wrong path. This is the same kind of thinking of the Pharisees in Christ's time. She should recognize the similarities. We all know what Christ thought of the Pharisees.
Let me state one more time- Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. It is through Him that all mankind is saved. He is our personal Savior. His sacrifice is what makes it possisble for all mankind to be resurrected. He is God. He is Jehovah of the Old Testament. We pray to God in His name. The bible is the word of God. We believe in it is so far as it is translated correctly. Some people think it is absolutely correct in every jot and tittle. That is fine. MOST Christians think some of it is allagory. So do Mormons. MOST Christain scholars accept that parts of it are NOT translated correctly. So do Mormons. This is what Mormons teach. All the other stuff some people find troublesome is just doctrinal differences. Mormons are not Trinitarians. Historic Christians are. Mormons believe in an open scriptoral canon. Historical Christians think everything God wanted us to know has been said. But the essential parts are the same as every other Christian's belief. Now if Barbara and others think that is suffient enough that God won't answer a Mormons prayers then I can't help her. I can tell you for certain that God does answer Mormon's prayers. To suggest otherwise is just silly
Just what do you people think a Mormon president would do that is so bad? I have yet to hear anything that is remotely serious. You can go to the LDS web sites to see what we believe. Asking Romney to engage in doctrine discussions distracts from the campaign. We already know historic Christianity and Mormonism are fundamentally different based on doctrine. So is every other denomination different from all the others within Christianity as a whole. So what? What makes Mormons Christian is our belief in Jesus Christ. It is only the modern day Pharisees who claim Momrons are not sufficiently Christian to suit them. This anti-Mormon thing is a distraction from the really important things like keeping Bill and Hillary out of the White House. Ask me your questions about my faith. I will give you the straight scoop. But lets not get distracted from the important things.
>>Gherkey then wondered out loud if Romney’s prayer would “even get through.”<<
Wow. I guess only Southern Baptists prayers reach heaven, huh? If Mitt Romney were a Jew and this comment had been said, Gherkey would be dead.