Poll: More Americans Believe in Devil than Darwin

TheTrueBZ »

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Quoting bible verses at people who don't believe in the bible is rather ineffective.

rubinlueski »

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:44 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

maranatha7593: your post:

"to keep you from experiencing the joy and peace of the salvation of the Lord, and especially eternal life when this temporary sojourn is over"

Actually, I dont want eternal life. A 70 yr life time or so is good enough for me.

maranatha7593 »

Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

rubinlueski, it sounds like you want God to be your servant, instead of vice versa -- that you want Him to do your bidding and be what you want Him to be, instead of the other way around. This is called pride, and it's the very thing which caused Satan to be cast out of Heaven (ref. Isaiah 14; Luke 10:18). If God were just a messenger boy, He wouldn't be God. And, yes, He has made His presence known; untold numbers of people throughout the centuries have come to know Him as Father, Savior, Lord, Healer, Comforter, Deliverer. I sincerely hope you will not allow unfaithful or disobedient people who call themselves Christians (only God knows hearts) to keep you from experiencing the joy and peace of the salvation of the Lord, and especially eternal life when this temporary sojourn is over. They will answer to Him for their lives, and we will all give account to Him for our lives, as well. His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, was the most perfect messenger He's ever sent, because He never sinned though He was tempted in every point like we are. There have also been a multitide of faithful Christians through the years. HyperionOverseer, the scripture you quoted is Hebrews 11:1. The Bible also says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. A dear friend says, "You are as close to God as you want to be." That is so true, for He has promised to draw near to us if we will but draw near to Him.

rubinlueski »

Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:06 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

maranatha7593, Actually I did not mean to imply that I dont believe there is a god. I have no evidence one way or the other. What I was getting at basicially, either does anyone else. There are plenty of people that seem to "know" there is a god and also "know" what god is thinking and what happens to you after death if you dont believe in this that or the other thing. The notion that if you dont believe in certain things is a ticket to an eternal torture camp is in my mind absurd. If there is a god, I doubt seriously that we humans have any idea of what that means. Eventually cosmology and particle physics may answer the questions of the origins of the universe and whether their is or not a creator. If there is a creator, perhaps in some unequivocal way, the creator will make its existence known. Untill then I have no idea. Faith alone is not enough for me. Nut jobs like pat robertson, the late jerry falwell, the pope, paula white, etc....none of them I find creditable on the question of what god may or may not be. If there is a god, I would like to think god could come up with better messengers than the ones I have seen.

maranatha7593 »

Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:44 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

P.S. Re: evolutionism -- There *is* a written record of Creation, but there is no written record of evolution. It requires at least as much faith to believe that something spontaneously came from nothing as it does to believe that an intelligent being created the universe and all that is in it.

maranatha7593 »

Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

rubinlueski, you are correct in saying there is no Santa Claus, and it honestly bothers me that parents teach their children to believe in him, only later to have to renege on that. But, exactly how have you "found out" there is no God? What is your proof of that assertion?

Christians are saved from a number of things, including: sin, judgment, separation from God, and spiritual death.

maranatha7593 »

Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:38 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

rubinlueski, my point was my point. Schoolchildren are taught a theory fraught with errors and gaps as "fact", and that is utterly hypocritical. True science is based on observation, and no one now alive was there to see how the universe came into being, how the earth was formed, how man was formed. Children should simply be taught what can be observed and what can be proven, then let them form their own conclusions about origins based on their own value system. The trouble is, the intellegentsia obviously feels too threatened by this true academic freedom to allow it to happen, so they feel compelled to continue teaching a theory which they know themselves to be flawed. Textbooks today are rife with error, and it's criminal that students are taught to believe that as fact! This is what I am talking about.

rubinlueski »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

DRJ You stated "Believe on the name of Jesus and you will be saved. Saved from what? Saved from that embarrassing report card that reveals your lack of participation due to your decision not to believe."

So, what happens if you dont believe? Eternal torture? ouch. I know I use to believe in Santa Claus because my parent told me so. I had faith for awhile on that. Then I found out there wasn't one.

rubinlueski »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

maranatha7593, you stated "For years, the intelligentsia has called for "academic freedom", "free thought", etc, yet they are the very ones force-feeding the theory of evolution to schoolchildren (a theory fraught with gaps and errors), while refusing to allow any other theory to be presented! How utterly hypocritical!"

What other theories are you referring to? I assume perhaps it is "creation theory". If "creation theory" were to be taught is school, how would one go about testing it. I put it in quotes, because unless one is able to make predictions from defined mechanisms, it is not really a theory. Perhaps you have something in mind to test a creation model that will allow me to remove the quotes. The reason evolution is taught in school is because it is based on science. Science is about asking questions about our world and the universe and then attempting to answer those question through observation and experimentation. Does the theory of evolution have holes? Yes of course, as do all areas of science. However, as evolutionary science develops over time, what we think might be true today, might be thrown out tomorrow and replaced with something that better supports the evidence and eventually the nature of evolution will be known to the extent that man is capable of understanding it. Thats how science works.

Perhaps one thing science can do, and is doing, is searching for extraterrestrial life forms in other parts of our universe. Perhaps if life on earth were created by an extraterrestrial, and we found that extraterrestrial, then that might be our god.

I know, I know, many on these posts will be telling me I'm headed to eternal torture for my statements, but if there is a god that created me, then I was created thinking the way I do and there is nothing I can do about that. It is my nature to be skeptical. What can say?

johnmorrison9 »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

The amount of denial and addiction in this country, I am proud that many can finger the source of our collective and individual pain, Satan.
I must also state, eco system come and go, so let enjoy the ride,
there is no proof we will survive.

pastorpablito »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

See, you still didn’t answer the questions of why. And the reason you didn’t is that without God, there is no answer to why we exist. I guess your answer is, “I exist so I can go sailing”. Poor answer.

I never said life couldn’t have brief meaning on earth without God, I said there was no point to it. A cow can have a great life in its mind if it can just reach the grass on the other side of the fence. But, there is no point to its life. There is no ultimate purpose, no ultimate goal. The fool’s answer has always been, “He who dies with the most toys wins!” No, he who dies with the most toys if that is the point is dead just like everybody else. They won nothing.

I have a great life. I enjoy many things. Like helping my neighbor (by neighbor now I mean those less fortunate than me in other countries), teaching people new skills and by sharing my faith. When I go back to the states, I have a great time riding my motorcycle, traveling in my RV, camping, fishing, etc. Hey, just like you! I live my life for now also with a hope and a goal of a future.

If you die tomorrow, your sailing and family life and job and falconing are over. Your whole meaning is over. If I die tomorrow, I hold out for a hope that it’s just the beginning. The start of something even better than the great life I have now.

What’s the point and meaning for the other 6 billion people in the world most of whom don’t get to go sailing, don’t have a job? What do you tell them? “Hey, tough luck, better luck next time, whoops, never mind I forgot, there isn’t a next time this is it and you just happened to have a crappy life but if it makes you feel any better, I got to go sailing!” Most of these people want to know that after they scrape through this life that there will be something better somewhere else.

More than half the people in the world live on less than 2 dollars a day. Affluent people (and this includes you compared to the rest of the world) have the luxury of being able to deny God, because you have everything you need and you don’t need to believe in something or have faith for your next meal. If there is a God, you want nothing to do with Him because you have the luxury of thinking you don’t need Him. I bet if you and your children were starving God would take on a whole new dimension. You know how many so called atheists have come to me and thousands of other pastors when times are tough? There is an old saying, “There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole”. Like I told Torus, if science and technology is the answer, why are there still some many problems in the America where it abounds? You want more reality and info, go here, http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Facts.asp .

You just keep on making now matter because it’s all you’ll get. I’ll continue to keep living a life for now and later.

schumacr »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Falconer33 -

First, begging the question involves sneaking the conclusion into the premises of a logical argument; that I did not do as you can see if you examine each point. Enough on that subject.

<<even IF there is a god, I want nothing to do with it.>>

And here is why our discussion now ends. As I said earlier, belief is a matter of the will; people act contrary to evidence all the time so real belief involves much more than just information transfer. The cry for evidence is a smokescreen for some people (not all to be sure). In making your statement above, you are echoing Nietzsche who said: "If you could prove to me this God of the Bible, I would believe in him all the less." You don't want God nor do you want there to be a God. It's not a matter of evidence, proof, or anything else so there's little more I can say to you except I pray that you change your will one day and be intellectually honest with yourself about why you believe the things you do.

maranatha7593 »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:23 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

For years, the intelligentsia has called for "academic freedom", "free thought", etc, yet they are the very ones force-feeding the theory of evolution to schoolchildren (a theory fraught with gaps and errors), while refusing to allow any other theory to be presented! How utterly hypocritical!

Falconer33 »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:11 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

DRJ-Exactly!

Pastor-"Without God in the picture, what is the point of your life"

Pastor, I can't believe your life is so meaningless that you need god. I live a fantastic life: twin boys, I sail, I'm a falconer, great job. I don't need to dwell on an afterlife. I make the most out of now, not bank on a maybe in the future.

And yes, I know there is no logical proof of god. Your faith makes god for you. Your fellowship with other christians make it a belief system. Great, have fun. When you start asking questions like "what is the point of life..." is when I say "how dare you.". I enjoy a debate on evolution, the false logic presented here just drowned that out (found more info on that error by the way if your interested.) Again, not searching, just want to give a fair and balanced side to the argument. I mean, if you don't want the opposite side of the story whats the point of debate or conversation?

"Don’t you hope for something better than this? Don’t you want there to be more?"

Again, make now matter. I don't sit around hoping I'll win the lottery. I work and live life to the fullest. As I said before, even IF there is a god, I want nothing to do with it.

Think I'm going to feed the horse to my bird.

pastorpablito »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:32 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

Falconer33
The questions I can’t ever get any of you atheists to answer are these. Your evolution (really good, with lots of overwhelming evidence, (your words)) theory may provide you with the answer as to how, but it will never answer the question of why. Why are we here? Why was the universe created? Why did life come from non-life? Why did matter come from non-matter? Why did man evolve from animal?

How is it that man appears to be the only creature unique in the fact that we (most of us) have a conscience? Why do the other animals live by instinct and we live by a moral code? If we came from animals, why do we lack the instincts to sense the impending danger of a tsunami that evidently most of the animals avoided? Aren’t we supposed to be superior to them yet of the same make up?

Without God in the picture, what is the point of your life? Why shouldn’t it be every man for himself? Why do we bother to stand in line at the bank for an hour? What difference do any of your accomplishments make in the long run? What is it that you have to look forward to? If there is no god, why is it that more than 85% of the people in the world claim to believe in a god? Why do they feel the need or desire to believe?

It’s interesting and amusing to have some logic debates, but the reality is that if you want physical proof or even logical proof God exists, I can’t give it to you. It would have to come from Him. God isn’t science and He is not bound by the limits of science. God is about faith. Faith: 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence (American Heritage Dictionary). All we can really do is tell you about our faith.

Don’t you hope for something better than this? Don’t you want there to be more? Don’t you want there to be something in control of all this beside random chance?

As Christians we hold out for that. Heb 11:1-3 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. (NIV)

You being here wanting to debate Christians tells me that you still search for something in your life. God bless you, I hope you find it.

Pablito

maranatha7593 »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

test

DRJ »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:37 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Dear Falconer33, Hurray for your side! Hurray for my side! And one day soon we will all get a report card with either a passing or failing mark. Imagine someone getting a report card when he thought he was just sitting in on the class. He thought he could come to class, observe the others' responses, and even get in on some of the classroom discussions! All of this engagement without being graded on his performance. Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way. We are here, therefore we are responsible for what we do here. Some believe we are responsible to God for allowing us to be here. Others escape culpability by pretending that there is no God, ergo, there is no responsibility. The notion itself flies in the face of logic. Jesus said to one of the most intelligent men in Israel (a teacher of Israel) that intellect would never allow someone to see something that exists by faith alone. Only faith in God opens the eyes of the spirit, enabling one to see the Kingdom of God. The man's name was Nicodemus. He became a believer based on his faith in the words of Jesus, not on what he thought about Jesus. The same invitation is made to all people. Believe on the name of Jesus and you will be saved. Saved from what? Saved from that embarrassing report card that reveals your lack of participation due to your decision not to believe.

Falconer33 »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

To bury the dead horse, your "logic" was incorrect. I know you won't buy this, but a text on logical argument trumps your belief:

Begging the Question

An argument begs the question when it makes use of a premise that no one who didn't already accept the conclusion would believe. Simply put, an argument begs the question when it reasons in a circle or presupposes the truth of the very thing it's trying to prove.

Your logic assumed the existance of god before the result. It is invalid. I agreed to parts of your logic, not the existance of god. I guess I'm not the only one who needs lessons in logic. I'm sorry, its cut and dry.

I was frustrated because your defending an incorrect argument. The above shows its incorrect. You cannot accept that because it blow your argument. I'm not going to beat my head against a rock trying to show your error. Neither am I going to admit to something I didn't say. You guys can celebrate all you want on "how hard you stuck it to him", but I am laughing because your celebrating an error. Way to go!

schumacr »

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Falconer33 -

Not to beat a dead horse, but you admitted my premises were true, so the conclusion naturally follows. My premise was not "God exists"; it was the conclusion from the true premises that preceded it. Anyway enough of that.

A reply to your "facts are the bane of Christianity". This couldn't be more untrue. Christianity rests on content. Furthermore, knowledge precedes faith and not the other way around.

Next, no reason to get angry. You may put LOL in your posts, but are you really laughing? You sound frustrated instead. You asked for evidence for God and I provided you with a link to perhaps the most prominent atheist of the 20th century describing how he examined empirical evidence and came to the conclusion God exists. Did you read it? If not, why not? If it wasn't convincing, that's fine, but I'd be interested in knowing what things you didn't agree with.

The point pastorpablito was getting at (I think) on asking why you visit these forums is that: are you here for a genuine discussion to provide an opposing viewpoint or have your questions answered? If so, great, welcome! But if you're here to just get mad, insult folks, and not really examine the answers to your questions, then maybe you should rethink your visits.

You see, this isn't about winning arguments, sliding in some zingers, and showing how smart a person can be. It's all about discovering the truth. The only reason anyone should believe in anything is because it's true. If atheism is true, then we all need to be atheists. But, if Christianity is true, then we all need to follow Christ.

GMG »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

torus and falconer - your science is your god, and evolution is your preacher, and I pity you for the lack of hope this gives you. Oh yes, I am sure with your superior intellectual capability (after all, you don't believe in fables), you are most certain that science is the hope for all and the end-all to the problems this world faces. But even Darwin expressed a sense of hopelessness for mankind if evolution proved true. What a cold bed for you to lie in.

GMG »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

torus -
"gmg -

1. HIV may be a (retro)virus but it has high genetic variability and evolves. This makes fighting it difficult, period. Genetic variability is one of the key causes of evolution."

Nope, it's features were as I previously described from it's beginning, making it difficult, at least, if not impossible to kill from the get-go. What we have today are various TREATMENTS, not CURES. With or without "genetic variability", your science is about as likely to find a cure for this one as for the common cold virus.

GMG »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Falconer33 - "wow, sign of a losing argument when you go to insults or questioning the debate. Why shouldn't we be here? Is your faith so weak as to fear debate? I've learned quit a bit about new christian ploys to avoid debate. Thanks guys! I thought the animal rights wingnuts were sneaky!"

Wow, nice insult!!! Is this a sign that you're losing the argument?

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Pastor-Falconer and Torus or any others for that matter - What I really would like to know is, if you are an atheist, what are you even doing on this website? If you are truly an atheist, you would care less what any Christians thought about anything. So, why are you here checking out Christian news and responses from Christians?

wow, sign of a losing argument when you go to insults or questioning the debate. Why shouldn't we be here? Is your faith so weak as to fear debate? I've learned quit a bit about new christian ploys to avoid debate. Thanks guys! I thought the animal rights wingnuts were sneaky!

jester_in_the_Kings_court »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

how can 82% believe in God and 75% believe in heaven, but only 62% believe in satan or hell? How can you believe in heaven, but no hell? if there's a place where all the "good" people go...where do all the "bad" people go? Washington DC?

pastorpablito »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Falconer and Torus or any others for that matter - What I really would like to know is, if you are an atheist, what are you even doing on this website? If you are truly an atheist, you would care less what any Christians thought about anything. So, why are you here checking out Christian news and responses from Christians?

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

The primise must be true, there is no god, primise is false, conclusion is false. Sorry, would YOU like the link? Its a christian telling others how to go in circles with false logic. Right up your individual allys! I also understand you do not understand science. No prob. I will thank you both for a good education in christian loop logic! Seeing I do biological research, I think I know what goes into it (can can hurl snide insults if you want, I expect it). Thanks again, won't waste so much of my time talking in your circles.

pastorpablito »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Falconer - The typical argument of you people. “You’re confused” and only I am right. If you ever read your responses, you would see that you are the one with the loop arguments.

Logic can prove reality. You are the one that provided the two realities. You gave a finite option that there were only two choices to the source of external existence. Then you gave the reality that one of them is wrong. Given those realities, the only logical and true conclusion is the reality that the other option is true. If you are going to concur that numbers 1,2,3,and 4 are true, you have no choice but to admit that 5 is also. If you don’t then you need to claim one of the first 4 is false.

That’s the trouble with science. When it doesn’t fit into what you’re doing, you make fun of it, call it flawed, throw it out and call everybody ignorant.

Evolution is all about logic. I have some evidence that A existed and I have some evidence that B existed, therefore B must have come from A. And your proof is still a missing link. Call me when you find it.

I’ll end this now, your reasoning is incorrect. There is a God and you proved it in reality by your own logic.

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I understand your confusion. Facts are the bane of christianity. I'll end this now, your premise is incorrect. There is no god so your conclusion is false. If you would like I could include a link to learning deductive logic, if that would help. It struck on the way home why you were wrong. Try again, this time with real facts not flawed logic. LOL

schumacr »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Falconer33 -

I have to apologize because I don't really understand parts of what you're saying or how I shot myself in the foot, but that's OK. One thing you may want to look at: Anthony Flew was one of the most outspoken atheists of the 20th century; he used to debate Dr. Gary Habermas (a Christian apologist) all the time. Anyway, he changed sides and now believes in God, which stunned a lot of folks as this was the equivalent of Billy Graham becoming an atheist. There's a nice interview of his thoughts on the subject and the evidence (scientific) that caused his decision. If you have time, give it a read:

http://www.tothesource.org/10_30_2007/10_30_2007.htm.

Thanks again.

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I was right. Found the christian guide to "keep in the logical realm". Makes more sense now. I buy it even less.

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Well, I guess we can go around in circles forever. Bottom line, logic cannot prove reality. Sorry. The logical argument for god is a popular one among christians because they can make it work. Lets turn this slightly to evolution as an example. We have proof. Physical, historical, scientific proof. Thats something that the god question will never have. I keep saying I want scientic, physical proof. We have proof that is currently undergoing a CT scan to further nail down the facts ("mummified" hadrosaur). You keep going back to the logical proof because thats all you have and it is not enough. Scientific examination discovered why bees could fly. And as you said it was illogical that a bee could fly but it could, then obviously just because logic says there is a god doesn't make it so. Seem you shot your own self in the foot (to coin a phrase I read somewhere). You can't pick and choose and as you have shown yourself, logic isn't perfect. As far as what could convince me, physical proof. Bible stories are great, where is the evidence. The only "proof" of any supernatural events fall in religious rightings. There were many historians that wrote nothing. Of course you could claim censorship, but that doesn't fly any more than your logic. There is research refuting various biblical stories (flood for instance) and plain physical timeline doesn't track. I know you said your not one who readily believes the 6k year earth age. In the early 2000's I read how biblical archaeologists were basically censured for using the bible to verify finds instead of verifing the bible with their finds. I know you have to work with what you have, but putting your belief in the hands of deductive logic exclusively....

And as Pastor shows, christians seem to have problems with the whole theory, law, etc.

Glad there was a snow storm and the office is dead.

schumacr »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Falconer33 -

Um, I don't mean for this to turn into a logic class, but the categorical syllogisms you wrote are logically invalid as they fail to have the middle term (water, cats) distributed at least once. For the conclusion to be valid, the premises must be properly constructed and your examples, unfortunately, aren't. Anyway, don't worry about it.

Don't forget there are some scientific things that appeared illogical only because science, at first, didn't understand them. For example, scientists thought it illogical that bees could fly; it didn't make logical sense. Then they discovered the little 'power pack' bees had, and suddenly things were perfectly logical and made sense.

Your quotes about logic are interesting. So are you saying we should approach things illogically instead? Is evolution logical or illogical? And if you say logical thinking is good, then I'm just going to ask you again what evidence is required by you (that needs to be combined with logic) to convince you of God?

pastorpablito »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Falconer,
Logic arguments work perfectly when there are absolutes involved. No, you can’t make random statements and come up with logical results. There have to limits to come to a conclusion.

<<1. You exist. (true)
<<2. If you exist, something must have always existed because something doesn't come from nothing. (true)
<<3. There are only 2 sources of eternal existence: an eternal universe and an eternal creator. (true)
<<4. Science has disproven the concept of an eternal universe. (true)
<<5. Therefore, God exists (prove it)

You just shot yourself in the foot with your own argument. You proved God existed because by YOUR admission there are ONLY two options. IF, there are only two choices, which YOU said was true and one of them is false, that leaves one and only one option and that is the other is true. Period. And that is a fact no matter what you say. If there are only two and it’s not one, it’s the other. That isn’t a theory of logic, it’s pretty much a law of logic.

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

And I repeat it is not.

All fish swim in the water (true)
Whales swim in the water (true)
All whales are fish (untrue)
This can be determined through scientific means. Whales are mammals.

I have a cat (true)
Tigers are cats (true)
My cat is a tiger (untrue)
Can be proven because I’m typing this.

1. You exist. (true)
2. If you exist, something must have always existed because something doesn't come from nothing. (true)
3. There are only 2 sources of eternal existence: an eternal universe and an eternal creator. (true)
4. Science has disproven the concept of an eternal universe. (true)
5. Therefore, God exists (prove it)

If your logic says its true you should be able to prove it outside of logic, otherwise logic is useless. The use of logic only to prove god is a very easy out, you say science can’t prove logic. Again, if what you said were true, we would all think whales are fish. Science did not rely on the logic, a statement was made, science found it to be incorrect. If logic and reality disagree, reality wins. That is a fact that cannot be argued. Logic doesn’t rely on logic for answers, logic shows science where to look. I found a few excellent quotes to end with:

Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence.
Joseph Wood Krutch

Logic: an instrument used for bolstering a prejudice.
Elbert Hubbard

Logic is neither a science nor an art, but a dodge.
Benjamin Jowett

The bottom line is that logic alone can tell us nothing new about the real world. Ditto for mathematics, as Albert Einstein observed: "Insofar as mathematics is exact, it does not apply to reality; and insofar as mathematics applies to reality, it is not exact."


Cheers

schumacr »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Falconer33 -

I'd respectfully disagree that a logical statement can't be used as proof. If all men are mortal, and Bill is a man, therefore, Bill is mortal. If premise 1 and 2 are true, then the conclusion is fact. That's why logic is called First Principles in science. Science can't prove logic or mathematics because it presupposes (relies on) them.

Not baiting you at all here but just asking: what type of evidence or real world examples are you looking for? Until I know that, I can't give you an intelligent answer. One point though: keep in mind there are at least 7 orthodox views of creation and young/old earth so don't toss all Christians into the young earth camp. I, myself, believe both science and scripture points to old earth (yes, billions of years being possible), but I'm open to listening to the evidence for the other side.

Remember, as philosophical as the question sounds, you as an atheist (just as we as Christians) must be able to give an answer to THE main question asked about all reality which is: Why do we have 'something' rather than nothing at all?

Thanks for coming back around - FWIW, I truly do appreciate the dialog.

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Fair enough, fair enough. Now seeing a logical argument really doesn"t prove reality, lets move into the real world and your real world assertions. I could "logically" deduce that a whale is a fish, and by that deductive reasoning it would be a true statement. But the real world truth is that its a mammel. So I'll concede your logical MODEL is correct. Put it to REAL WORLD USE. You can't, it falls aprt on you. You might be a whiz at logical arguments for what their worth, but come into my parlor. Or are you afraid your logical house of cards will fall?
Prove to me in the REAL WORLD that the age of the worlds is only 6-10k years, or any other so called proof of biblical evidense. Your "logical" victory is really meaningless unless you can back it up.

I do however, recognize your strawman tactics and won't bite. Finish your assertion.

Oh yeah, I'm not easily offended.

pastorpablito »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Some of us really should get back to work, although I guess some of us could say this is work.

God bless you all, whether you believe in Him or not and everybody have a great day.
Pablo

schumacr »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Falconer33 -

Loop logic? How is a deductive/logical syllogism 'loop logic'? Have you taken a logic class or no? The premises build on each other and if the premises are valid and flow properly, the conclusion naturally follows. You don't pluck each point out in a syllogistic flow as you've done and say it doesn't prove the point; the argument in total is the point.

In all seriousness, no offense, but I really don't think you understand how to argue through this type of position, or logic in general. And I figured you wouldn't provide any answers for your position - it's much safer that way. Too bad, (and no offense intended again) I was hoping for a serious dialog on the subject. Some of the other atheists out here have been very interesting to talk with.

pastorpablito »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:44 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Correction in my last post: In the first sentence I should have said "supports the theory" not points to.

pastorpablito »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Torus
See, here is that word again that you keep using, evidence. I will give you this, evolution has overwhelming evidence that points to the theory. It’s possible that evolution is true. I don’t believe in it, but I admit that it is possible. The problem is, (and I wasn’t going to say anymore until you decided to tell me that the evidence exists and abounds that I came from an ape) the problem is that in between all the overwhelming evidence there are gaps or absences of transitional forms in the fossil record. We have lots of records, but they are complete forms and a process like evolution that takes millions of years would produce a lot of transitional stages in the fossil record.

Evolutionists keep hoping to find that one missing link, but one won’t even really do it, because for evolution to be true the links for all species should abound. The gaps between your overwhelming evidence are what cause reasonable doubt and reasonable doubt is what should allow any intelligent person to agree that there just MIGHT be another possibility.

I agree with you, creationism is not science, however if it is true, it will explain some science. I don’t understand how a guy as obviously intelligent as you are and driven in the scientific and mathematical fields can make conclusive statements like you do about evolution and hold so firm to your conclusive believe that there absolutely is no God. As a mathematician, probabilities should tell you that if there is creation that most likely, there is a creator. At least it should tell you that there could possibly be.

My father taught science and mathematics and I was around science and math teachers and professors growing up and I never saw the kind of close mindedness I see these days in those fields. All I hear is, “We’re the only ones who know anything and all of you people are fools for believing in something you can’t prove exists and your statements just show your ignorance”. Well, by you own words, you can’t truly “prove” anything. Very true, so leave room for other possibilities. I have never said that evolution isn’t possible, I said I don’t believe it. It is “possible” that our entire universe could be the fungus under the fingernail of another being. Hey, with that in mind let’s leave it that anything is possible, even that there might just be a God!

Don’t even bother to try to tell me that there aren’t any gaps, because if there weren’t, we wouldn’t even be having this debate, I’d be licking my wounds and you would be gloating.

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Loop logic at its best but:

1)You can't deny the second premise because no one (scientist or otherwise) believes that you can get something from nothing. An eternal 'something' must exist. Literally no one believes otherwise.

Does not prove the existance of a "creator" or "god". You add that in. If something existed it must be a creator. Not good enough.

2) You can't deny the first premise because you have to exist to deny your existence so that is self-defeating.

Biology 101. Does not prove the existance of a "creator" or "god". Evolution is a better answer for #1 . Not good enough.

3) You can't deny the third premise because either you have either an impersonal eternality or a personal eternality. No other option is possible.

How does this prove a god? Not good enough.

I'll leave 4 alone as multiverses and such are not my field. Not good enough to prove a "god"

5. Therefore, God exists.

??????. Really. Pull a diety out a hat I guess.

"At this stage you will twist and turn and likely hurl insults because the logic is inescapable. If an impersonal eternality isn't an option, than a personal eternality is the only other choice. And if you cling to the impersonal eternality, you do so by faith alone. Out the door go all the logic, science, reason, and touch-and-feel-it evidence you claim to follow. Now it becomes a matter of the will alone. "

Nice speech trying to cover your behind. I exist so god exists, god exists so I exist. Please. Remember what I said about loop logic.

"And no, the above doesn't prove the Christian God, but it certainly buries true atheism"

It doesn't prove any creator existed. That something existed, yes. As you said something does not come from nothing (except some hollywood actors carreers). This does not indicate an intelligent designer in any way.

"Now, back to my question: Give me your proof for atheism or your top 3-5 points of why atheism is true and no God exists."

I will use your argument as you haven't proven there is. You can't. The inaccuracies of the bible which you base your faith on is the blow that puts the myth in the ground.


"Thanks for the dialog, BTW.. "

The pleasure is mine.

schumacr »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:33 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Hi again Falcon33 -

<<OH, and since everyone wants us to prove evolution...prove god exists.>>

OK. Follow this:

1. You exist.
2. If you exist, something must have always existed because something doesn't come from nothing.
3. There are only 2 sources of eternal existence: an eternal universe and an eternal creator.
4. Science has disproven the concept of an eternal universe.
5. Therefore, God exists.

You can't deny the first premise because you have to exist to deny your existence so that is self-defeating.

You can't deny the second premise because no one (scientist or otherwise) believes that you can get something from nothing. An eternal 'something' must exist. Literally no one believes otherwise.

You can't deny the third premise because either you have either an impersonal eternality or a personal eternality. No other option is possible.

The only premise you can attack is premise four, but before you start quoting me beliefs in multiverses, collapsing universes, and the like, realize they are just that - beliefs. No scientific evidence agreed on by anyone, and even those embracing such positions admit they are flimsy and lack true evidence. In other words, they hold them by 'faith'. But please try and take your best shot here.

At this stage you will twist and turn and likely hurl insults because the logic is inescapable. If an impersonal eternality isn't an option, than a personal eternality is the only other choice. And if you cling to the impersonal eternality, you do so by faith alone. Out the door go all the logic, science, reason, and touch-and-feel-it evidence you claim to follow. Now it becomes a matter of the will alone.

And no, the above doesn't prove the Christian God, but it certainly buries true atheism.

Now, back to my question: Give me your proof for atheism or your top 3-5 points of why atheism is true and no God exists.

Thanks for the dialog, BTW..

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

One last thing, before you try and say the bible is accurate. I will conceed the the bible contains some accurate historical events and people. I will except it can be used in an historical sense. The mythology that was added is not. Its no different than taking "History of Europe 1500-2000" and adding Jesus. The fact that many major historians and scholoars of the time make no mention of Jesus for instance is a MAJOR consideration. As are the similarities between stories that were written by other cultures and stolen for the bible. The inaccuracy of the sermon on the mount. This all leads to the conclusion that the bible is not an accurate book.

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

OH, and since everyone wants us to prove evolution...prove god exists. Without your loop logic, without the unsubstantiated bible (wouldn't work in the scientific field). Prove that the argument is WORTH being put next to evolution. Is WORTH being debated. You will fall short.

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

And thats how insidious religion is. That is why it doesn't belong in a science class. Its clssic loop logic. "You can't disprove he exists so he must". The same with prayer: sick relative>pray>gets better-gods work, dies-god called him home, gods will. Very nice position to be in. The prayer for rain in Georgia???LOL Just wait, its called nature. I look at the scientific side of the coin, of nature. The religious need some type of future after death to make their lives worth while. Religion is nothing but a tool to control the sheep, so they can be sheered.

schumacr »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

torus -

Hi again.

<<But any religion offered by the books or the followers of those books is false.>>

Because...? Because they speak of different things or because there is no God? Of course, if you say the latter, I'll ask you what your irrefutable proof for making that claim is.

Falconer33 -

"The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." - Psalm 14:1. Isn't that what an atheist like yourself does? Of course, to make such a claim, you need infinite knowledge and need to have visited every possible place in the universe to ensure God isn't actually in a certain location, so in a sense, you take on two of God's attributes (omniscience and omnipresence) to make your assertion. Agnosticism is a perfectly fine intellectual stance to take, but atheism? Intellectual suicide. Even your heroes like Darwin admitted they were agnostics and not atheists.

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:19 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Here you go Tom-

(Matthew 5:22) - "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."

Dang, a "christian" schooled by an athiest. Get your sunscreen ready! LOLOLO

Falconer33 »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Tom-I welcome any debate! I wonder, what you will use for evidence? The bible is out, unsubstantiated. There are a few christian scientists who try and bend the science to fit the religion. THere are more christian scientists who see the truth in evolution with their own eyes and except it as part of creation (not REAL christians I'm sure). Again its science vs. religion. If the concept debated is SCIENCE, religion loses. Why do you think the false concept of "intelligent design" has been shot down time and again. Please, I welcome the debate. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

HyperionOversee isn't there something in the bible about calling someone a fool? Not being a good christian!!! LOL

torus »

Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

pp -

As I said, sink the evidence into whatever context you desire, but that evidence remains. You did evolve from an ape, whether you believe that was directed by your god or not. Or maybe it's more satisfying (or politically correct, ick!) to just say that evidence exists and abounds that you did, whether you believe the process happened or was faked by the big guy. Either way, the data is there for evolution in myriad ways.

gmg -

1. HIV may be a (retro)virus but it has high genetic variability and evolves. This makes fighting it difficult, period. Genetic variability is one of the key causes of evolution.

2. I never said the bible didn't have practical advice (re the fishes), the point was that the religious assumption it attempts to sell is false. Take all the good advice you want out of the book, there's lots of it. Make sure you use other books too, the Tao Te Ching has some fantastic real-world advice in it (I read it cover-to-cover many times) as do many Buddhist texts. But any religion offered by the books or the followers of those books is false.

GMG »

Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Hello Ifeel fine, you definitely have company in the God started it/evolution finished it idea, but here's a few ideas as to why I don't believe that to be so.

In the Genesis accounts of creation, we have a lot of "God created", "God spoke", "God breathed life into", etc. kinds of things. And then there's the "God made all the animals, etc......and then God created man". This certainly appears to be a separate happening.

And following a logical train of thought, so much that Jesus did had immediate results, best examples would be his miracles; the lame walked immediately, the blind saw immediately, the water turned into wine immediately, the lepers were healed immediately, etc.

And then of course, there are those evolutionary scientists who came to believe in God strictly through their work in that very area, due to the amazing complexity of even the smallest parts.

If I can believe in God as our creator, or even the creator of the first "something" where nothing ever existed prior to that, then it's a piece of cake to imagine him creating the whole kit and kaboodle.