Sunday, November 08, 2009 Last Update:11:25 am ET

Ministries|Tue, Dec. 04 2007 05:47 PM EST

More Questions Raised in Probe of Preachers

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Days ahead of the deadline Thursday, when six popular televangelists are expected to turn over their financial records for a Senate probe, traditional Christians are not applauding the investigation.

  • Charles Grassley
    (Photo: AP Images / Matthew Putney, File)
    Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, speaks at the Iowa State Republican Party Convention in Des Moines in this June 17, 2006, file photo. Grassley is investigating possible financial wrongdoing by six televangelists, including three who sit on the board of regents for Oral Roberts University.

Some Christians wonder what the future implications of the inquiry, led by Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa), might be for Christian media ministries.

"What we're concerned about is the future of Christian broadcasting and Christian ministries – nonprofit ones – if this inquiry is either broadened or ratcheted up and hearings are held and new legislation is considered," said Craig Parshall, senior vice president and general counsel for the National Religious Broadcasters, according to The Associated Press.

Grassley sent letters last month to six leaders – Paula White, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long, Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn – who head prominent faith-based ministries, requesting financial statements and responses to a wide range of questions regarding their personal and organizational finances. The investigation by Grassley, who is the ranking Republican on the Senate Committee on Finance, was prompted by complaints from watchdog groups and media coverage on the pastors' extravagant lifestyles and whether they are abusing their nonprofit status.

"My business is the enforcement of the tax laws and the integrity of the tax code and making sure that trustees of charitable giving are true trustees," Grassley said, according to NPR.

Charisma magazine editor Lee Grady expressed support for the investigation, saying "questions need to be asked."

"That's why I refuse to demonize Grassley for launching this probe," he wrote in a recent column.

Grady found it unfortunate that the investigation was initiated by someone in the federal government and insisted that the Christian public should have demanded a higher level of accountability a long time ago.

Some – including Paul Crouch Jr. from the Trinity Broadcasting Network, which watchdog groups have also questioned but is not currently under investigation – have criticized Grady for defending the Senate probe.

While Grady hopes the pastors – who preach what critics call the “prosperity gospel,” which claims wealth is a sign of God's favor – can prove no wrongdoing, he said, "if God wants to use a senator to help the American church clean up its act, then I say bring on the reformation," according to his column.

But some wonder whether the investigation is the right way to end any wrongdoing.

"We're not representing any of the parties involved, but when I see a senator charging into organizations, wielding this kind of budget ax and laying bare religious figures and expenditures, huge constitutional questions are being raised," said Garry McCaleb, senior counsel at the Alliance Defense Fund, a religious liberty legal group.

The ministries have said they comply with tax laws, but it is unclear how many will respond this week to Grassley's inquiries.

Sort by: Newest | Oldest | Agree | Disagree
All comments on this page are subject to our Terms of Use and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Christian Post or its staff.
1 | 2
  • Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Here are some quotes from the main guru in the Word Faith/Seed Faith/Positive Confession Movement - Kenneth Copeland Himself. You be the judge if they are heretical or not:

    http://www.apprising.org/archives/2005/10/can_you_be_an_e.html

    Taken from an article called:

    CAN YOU BE AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN AND DENY GOD?

    "Copeland speaking of Adam "his body and Adams were the exactly the same size." (Holy bible K. Copeland Reference edition p.45)
    K. Copeland speaking of God " A being that stands somewhere around 6-2 , 6-3 that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds or a little better, has a span of 9 inches across (relating to his own hand span) (Spirit, soul and a Body 1985 audio # 01-0601 side 1Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body 1, 1985. )
    (http://www.letusreason.org/Wf17.htm)"

    This is just one heretical teaching taught by Word Faith teachers who subsequently teach prosperity. I'm sorry RB, I know you like Joyce Myers, but she is a astute studet of Copeland and many of her core beliefs stem from his teachings. And here are some of her quotes taken from the same article:

    http://www.apprising.org/archives/2005/10/can_you_be_an_e.html

    "G. Richard Fisher and Paul R. Belli of Personal Freedom Outreach inform us:

    Meyer can be classified as a Word-Faith teacher and as such has shown an inclination to waffle on major doctrines. In her 1991 booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make, an evangelistic work aimed at nonbelievers, she resounds the Word-Faith view of Christ’s atonement:
    “During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there ... no plan was too extreme ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell” (pg. 35, emphasis added).
    “God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus ... He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man” (pg. 36, emphasis added)."

    As you can see, there is page, book name and direct heretical quotes. The Bible does not teach that latter notion of a "born again Jesus", and neither does it teac Copelands position on Adam being the same as God, or God being a certain height. I say if the Apostles that saw the risen Lord did not have a "special revelation" contrary to the Scriptures, and then tell about it, then why shouldKennet Copeland have one? I tell you RBB, if it doesn't line up in Scripture, then I don't want to have anything to do with it. The Word tells us to contend earnestly for the faith. Look at Jude 3.

    Until we speak again, I bid you a good night. The Lord Bless You and open your eyes to this deception

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    I exhort in brotherly love, and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that anniefourjesus, and anyone else interested in finding out some of the outlandish statements made by many in this word faith false teaching please go here:

    http://www.apprising.org/archives/2005/10/can_you_be_an_e.html

    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html

    http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17c..htm

    http://www.gospelhour.net/2104.html

    I hope these links will help many on this sight understand why we as born again evangelical Christians need to contend earnestly for the faith. I exhort each and everyone of you in love to go do some research on your own. Some of the statements made by these prosperity teachers contradict the Scriptures they "claim" to be teaching. Don't take my word for it. Do the research yourself.

  • NOTW »
    Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    And annie, you truly do not understand the heresy of Word of Faith cult teachings, which claim faith in faith, not faith in God--so you as a sinful fallen person can use the force of faith to make God act for you. Do you believe these false teachings? Read Hagin, father of these liars, then answer.

  • NOTW »
    Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:46 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    anniefourjesus--so does God just wink at sin? As long as I speak worldly love, I'm okay with God, right?

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
    (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
    Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
    And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
    For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
    But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

    That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:28 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    KENNETHMATIBA, I did not know that this particular senator is a Mason, but I know that many, many leaders all across America are; in some localities, one has a very difficult time getting a leadership position unless one IS a Mason. A good friend works for the local fire department, and he says non-Masons cannot get promotions. That is really frightening, and underscores the need for Christians to take a stand against such blatantly discriminatory practices. A guy I know who has been in the Lodge for many years says Masons can flash a hand-sign to a Masonic judge, and the judge is bound by Masonic law to be as lenient as possible, often throwing out the case on an invented technicality. It's even worse that many churches are run by Masons, who often have great power on boards and as trustees. I have known of churches which will not tolerate a pastor speaking out against Freemasonry.

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:03 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    annie,
    peace with all men? especially those of the house of God? how can anyone be at peace with false teachers? can you? would you just sit by and let them destroy the church? i cant. the bible also tells us to test and judge everything and everyone. those who say that you have to send $x to receive $100x are they really of God. do you just let them be. i dont think so. we need to weed them out. remove this leaven before it leavens the whole lump. first for the good of the others in the flock and also with the hope that the one disfellowshipped would repent and return.
    first let me define what i mean by 'word of faith'. when people say that God is bound from doing anything before we speak it, that we have to claim it before we have it and God cant do anything unless we allow Him by believing it. Isnt this heresy. it is one thing to have faith in God and another thing to say that God cant do anything unless we say it thereby putting God in our command. what the word of faith people do is interpret scripture in such a way as to use God for their selfish and worldly desires. so instead of the focus being all about God it becomes all about how God can be used to better ourselves in this world.
    what about the martyrs? why didnt God prosper them? when the bible talks about rewards wrt the believer in the NT it usually refers to spiritual blessings not worldly ones. yes God talkes care of everyone but we are to look and lay up for ourselves treasure in heaven.
    people have shortcoming but you also have to understand the those who call themselves preachers will be held to a higher standard. it is part of the calling.
    unity that is not based on the truths of scripture is a false unity. it is a unity based on a lie. it wont last. neither is it approved of God.

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:44 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    anie,
    the false teachers were mentioned in the Word so that we can be careful and avoid them. there were many false teachers that preached most of the word but held to some false doctrine. T. D. Jakes is an example where he denies the doctrine of trinity. should he be preaching? i think not. is he called of God? i think not. if he doesnt know what the bible says and if he isnt apt to teach then he isnt called in the first place. are there many who ran but werent called. obviously. so how do we know the difference. if they were truly called they would first of all be apt to teach what the word says because that is one of the requirements of a preacher. and if they cant then God hasnt called them to preach. do you understand this? do you think i have interpreted the bible correctly here? i think so.
    the next point would be if it isnt the wrath of God that drove you to Christ then what did? there has to be a point where a preacher must mention hell and the wrath of God. otherwise ull never see your need for a savior. jesus saves but from what? the wrath of God that abides on everyone who doesnt believe. you dont repent so that you'll have your best life now in this world. true repentance is when you repent because your sin is exceedingly sinful in Gods sight. you dont repent just to go to heaven or to avoid hell. everyone in this world would repent if that were the case.
    you says that people were drawn to Christ because Christ cared for them. i dont think so. the people flocked about him because of the free food they would get, maybe because of the miracles but not because He was the Christ. they left him the moment he told them the truth that they must accept him as the savior. there were very few disciples of Christ.
    when it comes to judging, if an error is done openly in public we rebuke them in public. and in private then in private.
    God's calling and gifts are IRREVOCABLE!!!! - true, but is everyone who says that he is called called?i think not
    when paul asks us to esteem others he is referring to those brothers who behaved like christians. if this werent the case why would he ask us not to fellowship with those who call themselves brother but sow false doctrine or discord. is this a way of esteeming people? i dont think so. so reserve your esteem to those who humbly follow the Lord not those who say one thing and do the other.

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:17 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Well said AnniefourJesus!

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:01 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    "word of faith false preachers" = You see I believe my God's Word, I have faith in HIS Word. I believe what HIS Word says, I believe in HIS promises, and I believe that my GOD is able to do all that HE says. This is a Word of Faith, JESUS brought the WORD OF FAITH. Was He a false preacher? Without faith it is impossible to please God! Jesus in Nazareth could only do some miracles, and why?? LACK OF FAITH! They did NOT believe Him and HE was right there.

    Why are people in the "church" so quick to dismiss "Words of Faith" God longs to prosper HIS children in every way, do we believe that our God is good, that HE rewards those who earnestly seek Him. The Lord has shown me that even though my life has hard times, HE is my Jehovah-Jireh and HE does provide!

    I went from being a "welfare mom" to being a responsible citizen, to obeying God and repenting of the life I had been living and Joel Osteen ministries went a long way in teaching me how to walk with the Lord, in repentence and obedience. Joyce Meyer ministries helped me as well.

    I am so thankful that GOD knows the WORD we need, and when we need it! So many are quick to say what is God and what is not. Many things I had dismissed in my past as not from God; turned out to be exactly that. He didn't come the way I thought He should, wow, how convicting that was for this "self-righteous" woman I was in my past.

    Praise be to the Lord that HE has forgiven me for my own narrow mindedness of HIM!!

    I choose to see the very best in people; not their shortcomings, I have those myself.

    Prophet, I appreciate your insights too, as I'm a person who believes that we are works in progress and we are here to build one another up in our walk and faith. In the early church, they had NO NEEDS, they took care of one another. I took a real look at where the monies are going at Osteen ministries, wow, it is exciting what they are doing and what they are teaching.

    Go and visit these places, they invite folks to come and visit them. I take no man's word for anything; but I take it before the Lord and His Word, and I ask the LORD to show me if something is from Him or not. I'm even learning with my own finances, to ask the LORD, "how do you want me to spend this money today Lord?" After all this is not my money, and in my past, I'd spend it anyway I wanted. Now, I seek to honor Him (and sometimes I fall short here too). But HE knows my heart and my focus are truly on Him today! I'm very close to the Lord, and I am not ashamed of Him, I'm blessed to be used by HIM to build UNITY in the BODY OF CHRIST! :o) That's part of my own calling. Praises to The KING!

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Jesus Christ is Joel's Advocate as well! The LORD is calling on HIS family to draw closer to Him in these darker days, to be still and know that HE is God and that HE has everything under control. Joel Osteen shares the LOVE of JESUS and part of that he teaches repentence and obedience to GOD! I think that's what Jesus did too! Akonda I love you in Christ but I pray that you will focus on Jesus Christ, and be at peace with all men, but especially with those from the HOUSEHOLD of GOD!

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    This world hates Jesus Christ and hates His people. We are to judge our brethren in love, not condemnation. Also, we are to go to that brother, one on one, and then take two or three witnesses with us. If a brother/sister is willfully sinning, we are to put them out of the church, not in condemnation, but in love, with the hope and prayer that they will repent and turn back to God.

    God's Word is not for us to use to beat people up with. I had enough of that growing up and that never drew me closer to God, in fact, I ran the other way.

    The Wrath of God is on those who hold to unbelief of all that God has done through Jesus Christ; now if a brother/sister is misusing their calling/gifts, THE HOLY SPIRIT will bring conviction on that person(s). He may use any means to do this.

    God's calling and gifts are IRREVOCABLE!!!! I really appreciate Joel Osteen and his wife Veronica, they have an outstanding marriage, they work as a team, and I never hear Joel Osteen bad mouth any other human being. But many bad mouth him, even those who call themselves Christians. This man loves the Lord, that is so evident to me; and he wants so much for people to understand how God loves them, and how they have value in God's eyes, because of what Jesus has done.
    I learned through this man, that my past does NOT define me; I am a new creation in Christ, am I perfect no, do I still sin, honestly, yes, but now I am quick to run to Jesus and confess this and seek His forgiveness. There is NOT a person alive (even Christians) who get all this right!

    As you sit in judgement of any of these folks, you be sure that your account is clear with the Lord. In Jesus Name, Amen!

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To Akonda: The "false teachers" you bring up were men who were doing things like preaching that people had to observe part of the law as well as obey Christ, and they also taught that Jesus had already come back.

    God doesn't command us to beat up on anyone, brother or sinner. God is love and God's wrath was atoned for at The Cross of Jesus Christ! Man's anger does not lead to righteousness.

    Jesus died and rose again, when I repent of my sin, HE cleanses me from ALL unrighteousness. I am a NEW creature and I no longer live. The Holy Spirit resides in me, the Temple of The LIVING GOD! Everyone who receives JESUS, is sealed by The Holy Spirit, we are GOD's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus! NO one can snatch us out of HIS hand!!!

    Let me share with you something Charles Stanley wrote in my morning devotions:

    Christ Is Our Advocate
    1(A)My little children, I am (B)writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, (C)we have an [a](D)Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
    2and He Himself is (E)the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also (F)for those of the whole world.

    I would pray for my brother to repent of his sin of adultery, and I would still esteem the man, while praying for his sin!

    Let me tell you something, Joel never sought the ministry, never sought to be a pastor. He was a behind the scenes guy, involved in sound production when his father was alive. When his father went to be with the Lord, the LORD elevated him to his father's position.

    The only thing I see Joel doing is promoting the LOVE of GOD, which more ministers could do; we do not have to preach FIRE and HELL to help people see their sin condition and needing a Savior. JESUS saved HIS fire for religious oppressors, those who put religious, legal burdens on people.

    Jesus told us the world will hate us, and I see how the world hates many of these pastors whose flocks are turning to the LORD and many whose lives have been changed because the LORD changes peoples hearts and minds.

    We are to be conformed to the image of our LORD, JESUS didn't just speak the word, HE lived it out in how HE loved people and HIS attitude. People were drawn to Him because they knew HE cared about them; HE loves us and accepts us as we are, and then HE goes to work on "restoring our souls,:"

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:28 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Did you know the senator is a free mason? But the bible contradicts free masonry, in that in Acts 4:10-12 states, "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." This Scripture passage alone eliminates 99% of this world's religions. There is "NONE OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED." Salvation is found ONLY in the name of JESUS. Jesus stated in John 14:6 in no uncertain terms, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Freemasons deny Jesus' claim as sole Savior of the human race. Therefore, Freemasonry is diametrically opposed to the Word of God.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:43 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Why do we (Christians) ALWAYS miss the point? It is hard for me to believe that we are actually reading these allegations before we responded to them! Most of the comments on this blog are based on pure emotion, either for or against. Are you aware that tax-exempt status is given to an organization from the US Government? Therefore, the US Government has a right to see that an organization continues to adhere to the rules that were used to determine the tax-exempt status. An organization gets a 501c BECAUSE it files paperwork and asks for the tax-exempt status. The paperwork states that among other things, that the organization will exist for the purpose of some community benefit and not for the benefit of an individual. Unfortunately, there are no hard and fast numbers which would indicate what constitutes "existing for the benefit of an individual". In the 1990's for example, the president of the Red Cross was receiving a salary of about $436,000 per year. Excessive? Maybe, considering that the President of the U.S. wasn't making that much at the time. In that case, the salary went up for review and it was determined that it may have been a little much for the circumstances. Those who pointed this out were not against the work that was being done by the Red Cross, but in order to maintain a status of "non-profit" the organizations main focus needs to be to the needs of a group of otherwise disenfranchised persons. Same situation here concerning the church that has applied for and enjoys the tax-exemption. No one is questioning that any of these churches are benefiting the community by feeding the homeless or by providing spiritual relief. The problem is, since there are no clear cut numbers or percentages which would reveal malfeasance, simply "appearances" is all one can go on. Lavish lifestyles of heads of non-profits are in fact a violation of the tenets and purpose for granting the tax-exemption. Taking this as an attack on God's people or God's work is naive and ignores the real issue. Also, gladly calling all the pastors charlatans is equally juvenile.
    Get the facts, it is NOT a religious issue, it's just about tax. You know how Uncle Sam is about his money. NOT to mention that the Senator in questions is responding to complaints from INSIDE those organizations. If you focus on the real issues, you might learn something!
    Victor Conedy

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    akonda,
    Joel Osteen is not the hand, so he is not a part of the body.
    No, i must disagree. Every man has his calling. And it is just as damaging to not fulfill that calling as it is to overstep your calling. I have heard of teachers trying to overstep their calling and become preachers with disasterous results. I know of one preacher whom God called to pastor a particular church. Unfortunately, the pastor thought that a congregation of only 100 was too small, and took a position as a pastor of a church of about 800. That church is no more. And the preacher is working as a plumber full time.
    God has a place, and a calling, and a duty to do. For you to esteem another lower than yourself is not Christian. For even the word says to give honor to that which seems unhonorable. And to raise up that which is of low esteem.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    annie,
    why i raised Math 25 is to remind you that there will be people who have done all these things but still Christ tells them that He never knew them. the problem is that these people who did many good works deceived themselves because of their good works into thinking that they were saved when in fact they werent. so just because someone is doing so many good works doesnt mean anything unless they are saved. professing christians often confuse morality with spirituality. just because you are moral doesnt mean you are spiritual. here we need to test ourselves if we are really of the faith.

    you said - 'I believe that HE (God) will expose whatever is not from Him'. how do u think He will do that? in high probability through a brother in Christ. i agree we have to careful in pointing fingers but when it is obvious i see no problem in doing so. the intent is always that he would repent not to pull them down. when it comes to imputing motives it is clear from what these guys preach that they dont preach the full counsel of God. doesnt matter what their motives are. the fruit is bad. and yes i do pray for all the so called preachers that the Lord will convict them of their sins. id rather they repent than perish.

    prophet,
    preaching the word of God in depth is only going to increase the number of christians not reduce it. God is honored and glorified when the full counsel of God is preached. you should have known that. so if what you are saying is true then all those who were born again hearing osteen should shift churches. but i have never read that in the bible. if osteen wants to motivate people let him call himself a motivator not a pastor.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    annie,
    Just because God is the final judge does that mean that we just sit around and watch the leaven leaven the whole lump. the apostles called believers to test/judge everything whether it is from the word of God and whether these preachers are true or wolves in sheeps clothing. you seem to be suggesting that we just leave these people alone till the final judgement. this defies common sense as well as the biblical injunction to keep away from false teachers. the apostles also left us many examples where they pointed out false teachers like diotophes, alexander, hymenaeus etc. why did they do that if they werent God. and why do you think that these examples were given us. are you saying the apostles were playing God? we are called to judge our brothers if need be 1cor5. do you not know that the saints will judge the world as well as the fallen angels? i do not take pleasure in the fall of anyone. but i do get angry when people run in the name of God only to devour the sheep and play with their souls. when jesus talked about the tares he was refering to the world not to those who call themselves brothers. and just because someone calls themselves a christian doesnt make them one.

    there are many parts in the body, true, but when one says he is a pastor the word mentions what his duties are. that he must be apt to teach the word of God. not just the superficial stuff but he has to teach the deep things of the word. this disqualifies osteen and all these other word of faith false preachers. why dont they stop calling themselves pastors? the word clearly specifies that they arent qualified because they dont preach as they should. i too have watched osteen and sad to say i wasnt even fed milk. ive seen places where he uses just half a verse to justify his claims.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    You are a wise woman. I appreciate your passion and wisdom here on CP.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    People need to be held accountable for listening and believing the ones out there professing to offer blessings in God's name and taking money for that, I as a believer also have a responsibility to KNOW what my Bible says about all of this. Akonda, God is the final judge, not you. He deals with all sinners, which we all fall short of God's glory, including you and I.

    We are all one decision away from making a fall, we not to think so highly of ourselves, to think this could not happen to us! God can help us to stand, but we should take NO pleasure in the fall of any man, especially those of the household of God. Jesus said, leave the tares alone, with the wheat, HE will take care of that.

    Are you making sure you are right with God, and that your walk with Him is solid, that's what HE calls me to do as well. We are to use Godly discernment, to make sure, each one of us, is walking a walk worthy of our LORD.

    I think I need to focus on Jesus Christ and make sure I am not listening to men who want to tickle my ears; and instead let The Holy Spirit be my teacher and guide. Too many put their pastors/ministries on a pedastal, when they are merely human also.

    There are many parts of the body, you do not know which part each one has been called to Akonda, you are not God. I have personally watched and listened to Joel Osteen and been FED spiritual MEAT!! and Joyce Meyer too!

    It isn't enough to preach the word, we must also be LIVING IT out...JESUS quotes Matthew 25 at the Final Judgement. I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat; I was in prison you did not come to visit me, etc...our faith isn't just something we speak on, it is also faith in ACTION, expressing itself in LOVE.
    You go and see how many folks lives are being changed by the power of GOD through Joel Osteen ministries, instead of judging this brother!

    Prophet, I agree with you on charging people for prayer cloths, and etc. I realize there are many who are "profiting" from the Gospel, wrong motives, my stand is this; God tells us to pray for these leaders, and I believe that HE will expose whateveris not from Him.

    Also, HE tells us how to speak to one another, even in our rebuking or correcting to do this in love, not in a condemning way. Let The Holy Spirit convict where there needs convicting, so they will turn truly to the Lord. I think it's a dangerous place to be pointing fingers and we must be careful we don't fall ourselves as we point out others failings/sin.

    To whom much is given, much is required, and so those who are teachers, preachers, those who God calls, need to be rightly dividing the Word and their actions should be of integrity.

    My stand also is no one here on these posts, know these folks personally to know for sure any of this is valid. We are not to impute motives. Only God knows the heart and mind.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:01 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    I love Osteen. He doesn't preach the "deep" things of God, but that's because God didn't ask him to. If everyone preached the deep things of God, there would be no Christians. Who would be there to take care of the babies in Christ? God puts people in His body where He sees fit. And we can't say that because one person is not the hand, that he is not a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? its scriptural. Look it up. Don't knock osteen or copeland, or meyer for what God has called them to do. they all have their place in the work of our Lord.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:52 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Annie,
    I agree with you for the most part. God does bless us as he sees fit. But jester made a comment the other day that i also agree with. That many of these televangelists (maybe not the ones listed in this article, but there are reputable ones out there) who actually offer prayers for money. That's just so not God! That's slapping God in the face! They can call it giving a "love offering" or whatever, but without sending in money you will not receive the blessings of God answering your prayer. I still see "prayer cloths" being used. Nothing wrong with that. It's a point of faith for some people, and God honors that. What IS wrong is "send in your donation of $10 and we'll send you this annointed prayer cloth, etc, etc". Does that sound very Christian? Paul used prayer cloths. Did he charge money? If i am not mistaken he even ripped up his own clothes to be the prayer cloths. I'd like to see some of these televangelists do that with their $800 suits.
    Rod Parsley really impressed me the other day. He was offering pray cloths FOR FREE! Now that is the kind of man I want to listen to.
    You can't buy God's blessing. Freely they have been given the good news, so freely they must give it out.
    I'm not against God blessing the preachers. But be honest about it. And don't overdo it.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:49 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    it is true that God blesses both the wicked and the good. but does that mean that we stop beating up on the wicked just because it is God who gives. i am also sick and tired of hearing the phrase that it is God who judges. God has already judged and He has given us the standard of judgement through his word.
    people seem to confuse doing good works with being saved. christianity is first and foremost about repenting of our sins and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. so just because they do so many things in Gods name doesnt mean anything if they arent saved. do you not know many will say to Christ on the last day, Lord did we not do this and did we not do that in your name and the response will be I never knew you.
    Joel Osteen didnt even have the courage to proclaim the gospel that Christ is the only way and that everyone else is lost, as seen on Larry King. maybe he changed I donno. but i doubt that.
    To preach Christ is to preach Christ and him crucified. Does he do that on a regular basis. You need to delve in the negative (sin) before you preach the gospel. Sin gives the proper context for preaching the gospel. you will never appreciate the height of Gods love until you realize how low you have fallen.
    God can and use many means to bring one to Christ. In my case He used a sect that didnt believe in the finished works of Christ to save to bring me to Him. But that doesnt mean in anyway that he approves of them. So just because a few people are coming to Christ doesnt necessarily mean that God approves what they are doing. the mark of a true preacher therefore lies in what he believes and what he preaches rather than how many people flock about him. jesus had many people flock round him but once he told them the hard truth that they have to eat his flesh and drink his blood they left him. and i would bet if osteen preached the truth in depth the same would happen to him.
    and you talk of esteeming others. but if a man is an adulterer and calls himself a brother would you esteem them as highly. in the same way how can we esteem those who call themselves pastor and yet do not feed the flock but fleece them by preaching a false message or a shallow message?
    yes, the world loves to beat up on Christ but even the jehovahs witnesses use that to justify their persecution. where do we draw the line?

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    1 Thessalonians 4: 11-12

    11. Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you,
    12. so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

    God bless us more abundantly and the workman is worth his wage and it is GOD who pays the workman. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you. God can bless anyone HE wants anyway HE wants! He is Sovereign!

    God is my daddy and I am HIS child! He blesses me with the knowledge that HE is my daddy, and Psalm 27:10 tells me that when my mother and my father forsake me HE will pick me up! He is my PAPA!! If you don't know Him like that, I am sorry for you!

    The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the Name of our Lord! Seek the giver not the gifts, the greatest gift the Lord gave me was Himself. He has provided for me and my family in ways I could never have imagined. All good gifts come from GOD!

    It isn't the enemy who is blessing these folks!!!

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:57 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Being blessed by GOD is NOT a SIN!!!! How one uses those blessings, if we misuse them, we will stand before God one day and give an account of ourselves!

    Keep your eyes on JESUS CHRIST, not to any man! It is the KINDNESS of GOD that leads men to repentence. How many here are so perfect in their own walk, that they can stand in judgement of any of these people. Be careful lest you fall yourselves!

    Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, it is a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of the LIVING GOD! Jesus loves these people, ALL of them!

    So let me get this straight, if God chooses to bless someone, they should hide it in a well and not use it; do any of you actually know what they spend this money on? Do you know how many ORPHANS they support, or homeless people they FEED or CLOTHE, do you know how many WATER WELLS have been dug for folks to have CLEAN drinking water!
    If you give a cup of water in my Name!!

    How many here are doing any of these same things with their own blessings!!!!! Get out your calculators and add up what all these ministries have given to the POOR. Go check Joel Osteens ministries...how they HELP PEOPLE to get off welfare and be responsible to God, and to their community. how many people here are doing that???

    This world loves to beat up on the Body of Christ and Jesus told us they would, I will not be part of beating up anyone who calls upon the Name of the LORD.

    Let me see your fruit and see if you measure up yourselves!

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    All of First Peter 4 is good, but I really like this passage:

    "But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. FOR THE TIME IS COME THAT JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator."

    If they are innocent, then they are innocent. God will judge them, and if He chooses the American government to do so, then so be it.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:33 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    To akonda: I have witnessed for myself first hand Joel Osteen. This man is a brother in Christ. I also get a daily devotion that he and his wife Veronica send out, I sent for it. With my Bible open, every devotion I have received to date has come straight out of God's Word.

    He does bring out messages of obedience and repentence!!! How vital those are to our walk with God. He emphasizes what God does: We are to ESTEEM others better than ourselves! That too is the word of God! You do not know this man personally and neither do I. But I have seen his fruit and it is quite full, including myself and many friends.

    I examined his fruit, and I see a man who tries to follow Jesus Christ (no one is perfect but Jesus). He provides sound BIBLICAL practices. One doesn't have to WALLOW in the negative to bring the Gospel. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is HOPE! Joel calls on people to repent and obey GOD and to let LOVE lead them in their daily walk, the very things God tells us in HIS Word.

    My own daughter's life turned back to the Lord due to this brothers influence. I am so thankful to God that HE used Joel Osteen to draw my child back to Himself!

    Just because some ministries are blessed by GOD and all blessings come from GOD, is no reason to beat them up. It takes money to pay the bills, and various other MINISTRIES within so many ministries. We have a small congregation and our bills are high due to the very high bills these day.

    Jesus Himself had a ministry when HE walked this earth, and WOMEN supported the Lord's ministry. God can use anyone and any means to spread the GOSPEL. Paul even said, what ever anyone's motives are, JESUS is preached! God will deal with anyone's motives in HIS way!

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:28 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    to RBB - when I asked a pastor self confidence, he judged that sIn the middle of sin is I. when I lost my job, nobody else has to look for a job expect me & that HR do not hire people with an I problem. the same pastor who said I is the middle of sin bought a house & has a chrysler 300m luxury car. he judged me that I is a sin yet he catered for him'self' decided for him'self' & enriched him'self' using the money that he did not worked hard for. he judged me first. he put me in bondage, put a lot of weight on my shoulders & he stumbled me. where is this denying himself that stated in the bible. that is the problem with christians, they don't know the issues & the first thing that comes out of their mouths is accuse others of sin, then blame the same person who missed the opportunities by saying it is lack of faith. now these pastors who enrich themselves are insulted when their sins are exposed. they call it 'judging'. if you cannot be a stepping stone & be a stumbling block then shut up.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I am not concerned, but the Senate seems to have its' fingers everywhere, and yet do nothing.
    From Anwar to the UN, they have taxed and confused the American people.
    When will they look at the Rainbow/ Push people or the ACLU...?

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The Bible clearly warns us to not call others fools btw.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:50 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Singals from every direction warns of an imminent shake up some great magnitude. The
    crisis in the U.S. economy, weak Dollar, war in Iraq, global warming, etc on the one side,
    and spiriual awakening in Asia and Africa on the other hand. T.V. preachers are bringing
    new revelations of different versions but they all agree in one thing that they must have a
    lifestyle of rich and famous. They all preach prosperity and directly ask the donors to send
    their magic " faith seeds" to the preacher's address. I do believe in giving but always try to
    find the most needy individual, organization or local Church which I find as the best ground to sow. Let everybody find their own fertile ground to sow their seeds which will bring blessings
    to both parties.

    God is going to do some cleaning of the house because in the name of Jesus so many dramas
    are being rehearsed every day but Jeus Christ is standing outside as an uninvited observer.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:31 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "'My business is the enforcement of the tax laws and the integrity of the tax code and making sure that trustees of charitable giving are true trustees,' Grassley said, according to NPR."

    Apparently Senator Grassley failed his elementary school civics lesson. He is a senator. The Senate is part of the Legislative branch of the government. The IRS has delegated authority through the Executive branch to enforce tax law. If Grassley truly wanted to have the tax law enforced, and not just persecute people for their beliefs, he'd file a complaint with the IRS and let them investigate.

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:44 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    The same heresy follows those in the seed faith/word faith/ name it and claim it prosperity gospels who say that we, as mere humans can speak things into existence, as if we're God. NO, that is nonsense, we are the creation, and GOD is the CREATOR. He is the only one who can speak things into existence. He alone spoke the universe and the earth into existence. He and He alone holds the power to life and death. He and He alone controls where we are born, and the boundaries of our dwelling. Who am I that God is mindful of me? Many on the seed faith TBN pulpit are peddling the Word of God for financial gain, and they will not have to answer to the Senate Finance Committee, but to God. I have been in a church service where a so called "annointed" faith teacher said that God told him that there was someone in the audience who had a stomach issue, and that God had told him not to be alarmed at what he was about to do, but that he was supposed to slap her in the stomach to cast that sickness out of her. To my amazement, the woman stood there while the man slapped her in the stomach, and she just kinda looked like she was in pain after the fact. The same man said that he wanted a jet airplane, and that God was his daddy, and if he asked his daddy for the jet airplane, that God would give it to him. He stood there on the pulpit of the curch i was visiting boasting about how God had gien him a house on the side of a mountain or a hill, and that people would drive by and look at the preacher's house with the Miami Palms, and he would smile, and say, daddy gave it to me. Now where in the Gospels or the Epistles did you see any of the Apostles asking for material waealth or condonong tht wealth as a condition of having much faith? Jesus Crist the Son of God did not have a place to lay his head. Church history and Bible historians show that all of the Apostles were martyred for their faith and witness of Christ with the exception of John who was stuck in a pot of boiling oil, but he survived. Where's the prosperity gospel here? Did not these prescious saints love God and have perhaps more faith than us, and trully live out the Christian life in holiness ad reverence? Yes they did, and they gave up evrything even to the death. God does not call everyone to die a martyrs death, but He does not promise everyone problemless life filled with Rolls Royces, and Leer Jets. What do these Prosperity Evangelists have to say to the home missionaries in India and other parts of the 10/40 window who go without food sometimes for days. What we should be is thankful and eternally grateful, because our true reward is in heaven. And Christ died and rose from the dead to save us wretched sinners from eternal seperation from God in hell. I can only hope that those who have peddled God's Word for financial gain would repent and turn from what they are doing.

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:25 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    I am convinced Jesus will return soon for His Bride, and we are living in the end times brother, and make no mistake about it, the "emergent conversation", the "emergent church", the COEXIST Movement, and BOno from U2 along with the Rick Warrens of the world with their social gospel are creating a "bridge" between Christianity and Eaastern as well as Catholic Mysticism wich is really new age.

    Read up more on the social liberalism of the emergent church, and the many seductive false doctrines such as contemplative prayer (which is really eastern mysticism), the bringing back of icons to "feel" God move in people's midsts, you can eve read up on Brian Mclaren's (The man who is credited to being the founder of this liberal church movement) view, as well as many of their leaders views on hell and homosexuality, and you will see they are totally extra biblical. you can find more info on this at www.understandthetimes.org, and www.apprising.org.

    The emergent church preaches an extra biblical gospel that is more in line with the new age than it is with Sound Doctrine based Biblical Christianity. Many of them - to mention one - Tony Campolo recently told a young reader how to have a born again experience thru contemplative prayer! Imagine that, the Bible says there is only one way to God and that is Jesus Christ, and here is a so called evangelical preacher (not really evangelical even though he calls himself this) and he is teaching an eastern mystical practice taught in the Roman Catholic Church and the Jessuit Order. Now imagine that, he is adoptig practices from a church that teaches the deification of Mary as being co-redemptrix with Christ. This is heresy my brother, and we need to exhort others in love, and pray for their eyes to be quickly opened to this deception in the church; that they may see this for what it is, and that the Holy Spirit in mercy and grace may convict their hearts to repent and come back.

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    to RBB - aren't these pastors & tele evangelist judgemental too. what do you call when they always point to sin.

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    yeah i can tell. but they don't even pray about it or heard anything as the such come from thier mouths. ( that i can tell)

    Also finances help you bless other people. if God leads one to feed or build a new church in our nation or the next wouldn't money play a part?

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    whats the problem with "seed faith"?

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    why are christains pastors not being financially stable? dont forget the holy spirit as a teacher also. all those that wrote the nt was lead by the holy spirit and was a fresh revelation at the time. so there can be fresh revelation long as it dont conflict with his word thats already given.

  • artm »
    Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:01 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    This probe will not stop here, It is just a foot in the door. However, Ken Copland said that the Blood of Jesus does not atone for your sin, Thats false doctrine.

    The word of faith camp is ripe with false doctrine. do a little home work and see for yourself. joyce meyers says that Jesus died Spiritually, and actually took on the nature od satan, Thats false doctrine, she goes on to say, " you won't find that in the Bible, It comes by Revelation of the Spirit.

    If what you are teaching cannot be found in the Bible, Then what you are teaching is a lie.

    Paul crouch said, " he is sick of those Christians who hang their hat on Doctrine, Mr crouch, What is the Christian suppose to hang their hat on,?

    God help us. I do not like this probe, Not because of the one's being investigated, But because of where it could all end. Art

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:39 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    if these 'preachers' have nothing to hide why dont they just comply with the requests of the govt? arent we supposed to submit to the govt as long as it doesnt go against scripture? wouldnt it be for the glory of God when the govt, regardless of whether their intentions are good or evil, is proved wrong. so i cant understand why all this uproar. let the world examine us and prove us to be faithful followers of Christ to the glory of God. and if we have something to hide then shame on us. judgement starts at the house of God.

    i myself am very interested in the outcome of this probe. most of these 'preachers' preach a false gospel. yes, we cant know everything thats in their heart but we can know who is and isnt a christian not just by what they profess but by the fruits they produce.

    someone mentioned that these people are 'men of God'. good one. true men of God as attested by history are those that have suffered for their faith even to the point of death. you cannot serve both mammon and God. these people fill their bellies by devouring the poor, preaching a message of greed and covetousness. i dont think these people are men of God. they just pander to the selfish needs of the people.

    joel osteen - when did he ever stand against anything / say anything negative. the best he can do is 'it is not Gods best'. he is one more false teacher in the pulpit. at best He is a coward and at worst a heretic. definitely, not a good model of a christian for anyone to follow. just because the world applauds doesnt mean that he is a man of God. let him preach about sin, repentance, holiness, the essentials that he purposely leaves out and we will see how the world receives him. wont be as gracious as it is now.

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "While I never like to hear negative things about friends and other ministers, I choose to believe the very best in them."

    Though the media often feeds on sensationalism, accusation and even malice at times, a report in the Orlando Sentinel crediting evangelist Joel Osteen for both his unaffected lifestyle and his refusal to bad-mouth fellow Christians is a breath of fresh air.

    In particular, reporter Mark I. Pinsky—referring to recent accusations of televangelists living "lavish" lifestyles—notes that Osteen, "has not taken a salary from his Houston megachurch for two years. He owns one house—the same one he and his wife, Victoria, have lived in for 13 years—and until recently he drove a 9-year-old car he inherited from his late father. Osteen pays his own hotel bills, and there is no private jet...and [he] does not ask for money on his broadcasts.

    "We make plenty of money from our books," said Osteen. "But we just live normal lives. We try to be conservative and honor God with our life and with our example."

    Osteen also reportedly refuses to condemn the televangelists accused of living lavishly by Iowa Senator Charles Grassley.

    "While I never like to hear negative things about friends and other ministers, I choose to believe the very best in them," Osteen said. Mark Pinsky, The Orlando Sentinel

    God tells us to ESTEEM others better than ourselves. God is the One who blesses people, and we are all accountable to Him in the end. I take a chapter out of Joel's page and I choose to see people as God sees them. Noone knows the full condition of anyone's heart/mind except for God!

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Jim,

    Since you addressed me personally and referred to my argument as "silly", let me respond in kind. First of all, you used God's use of an Old Testament pattern of judgment as applicable that our government is the "ungodly" use to discipline our brothers and sister ministers. Who is silly?

    Secondly, these ministries ARE NOT breaking IRS regulations. They are in compliance with the code of non-profit status. This inquiry is against "Word-of-Faith" ministries that some on this board refers to as a false doctrine. Are we really going to go down that road that has no end. We believe in Christ - the basic fundamentals of the faith. Because we also believe as Paul did, that God will bless those who give generously will reap generously. That we will be made rich so that on every opportunity we will have more than we need to meet the needs of others.

    Thirdly, the money that these ministries receive obviously is not coming from you. I know these people who are being questioned and I respect each one of them as men and women of God. So many speak of what they do not know.

    Blessings

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:20 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Our hearts should be on our relationship with Christ Jesus, not on the possessions of this world. If the Lord should bless us with good finances, then that's up to Him. We shouldn't be seeking after the multimillon dollar home, church paid leer jet, solid gold toilet seats, etc. We should pray about being a good steward, and giving to help those in need, and invest in those ministries that help spread the true Gospel of Christ to change lives for eternity; not this name it and claim it theology. Our true treasure is in heaven. All this on earth is going to burn. This is why Jesus said to die to ourselves daily; pick up our crosses, and follow Him. The flesh covets the things of this world way too often. It's a daily battle; our walk with Christ is a day by day, moment by moment event.

    We need to think daily on what Christ pulled us out of; what He saved us from, and what He continually is cleaning from our lives as we bring it to Him. We need to think upon the love He gave, and continues to give even though we don't merit it for a second.

    We need to be thankful, and content in what He has decided to give us in our lives. But even morte so His wonderful Grace and Mercy, and Love.

    Praises and Honor and Glory and Wisdom and Power be to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:18 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    Many Born again Christians on this board express disdain for this name it and claim it "seed faith" theology because it is a false doctrine. They make a doctrine out of one Biblical Scripture verse, a principle, or promise, and then never leave that point. They don't expound on the whole context and heart of the Scriptures so people will grow in their faith. Rather than teaching the whole counsel of God, they teach that if you give to their ministry, then God will multiply it 100 fold. They peddle God's Word for gain, and this is not what God calls teachers of the Word to do. It is definitely a heretical teaching that is extrabiblical and for one to say that disdain for this false doctrine and abheration of the Truth is a comparison of Christians persecuting other Christians as you implied on your post is distorting the issue.

    Yes, we as believers should be united in sound doctrine; not on all these other false doctrines including name it and clai it, and blab it and grab it theology that seem to pop up everywhere in Christian bookstores, on TBN, etc with a secular humanistic, and seeker friendly tone to them to tickle the hearers and readers ears.

    God does not promise everyone to be rich here on earth. He has however promised us a relationship with Him, He has also promised that He would supply all of our need (not our greed) if we should put our total faith and confidence in His One and Only Son Jesus Christ. He promised that He would go and prepare a place for us and that we (who have given our lives to Christ) would spend eternity worshipping Him and fellowshipping with HIm.

    We need to be like the Bereans who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what is being taught to is biblically true.

  • RBB »
    Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:30 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    kaishinden79 - I said
    " Please stop yelling. And while you're at it could you be a little less judgmental. Maybe some people like to wait to find out if someone is guilty before they punish them."

    Where do I quote a verse? And again, please............stop yelling.

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:53 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    GNKennedy and others,

    1. God used the babylonians and Assyrians to correct the Israelites so the percedence is set by God Himself for using those outside the church or ekklesia to be used to correct those within the family.
    2. When these groups are utilizing a tax break from the governmnt then they need to follow their agreements with the government. Just like the Israelites and the Gibeonites.
    3. This has nothing to do with Judas and it is a downright silly and completely irrelevant comparison. Jesus didn't use the money of others for His personal prosperity and leaders in His church are called to lead His people through example. Saying, "We are helping people" and then living in the lap of luxury on the donations of others in the form of government subsidy (non-profit status) is not servant leadership as lived by our Example.
    If they broke the laws then they need to be punished according to the laws they broke.

    Jim

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Satan's first scheme of division is the scheme of the question. He first asked Eve, "Did God really say?" He then tempted Jesus with, "If you are the Son of God turn these stones into bread." When that failed Satan left Jesus awaiting another opportunity. Who did he use? He used the religious arrogant and the Machiavellian scheming of politicians. The Senator sounds righteous when he questions the ministers about the money by suggesting it should be used for the poor. The scriptural precedent for this is when Judas despised the woman's offering of the excessive gift of oil upon the worship of Jesus by suggesting that it was a waste and should have used for the poor.

    Let the giver decide if their gift is fitting - it is not your money to control, nor is it the governments.

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    to RBB - stop using the 'ye not judge' verse bec. it is a way to justify & defend their sins. doesn't pastors & tele evangelist always point to sin when you do your own thing? isn't that judging others? but when they do their own thing, where is the line bet judging & rebuking. why don't they deny themselves. is this denying themselves by exploiting the bible to enrich themselves?
    MT 23:25 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are FULL OF GREED & SELF INDULGENCE. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside!
    LUKE 11:45 - the teachers of the law said ' when you say these things YOU INSULT US ALSO'
    the bible is for correcting & rebuking & the pastors & tele evangelist are not exempted from it. WHY IS IT BIBLICAL WHEN christ rebuked the pharisees? don't you justify their sins.
    by the way, I am not rich like these pastor & teleevangelist.

  • RBB »
    Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    So what's with all the flagging?

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Here's information about ECFA and this probe, as well:

    http://www.crosswalk.com/11560285/

Please help us to monitor our message boards by flagging comments that are unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable.
Contact Us if you have any questions, comments, or concerns.
Comment on this story
ID Password

Don't have a Christian Post ID? Signing up is easy. Click Here

  • icon1
  • icon2
  • icon3
  • icon4
  • icon5
The Christian Post reserves the right to terminate the account of any User who violates our Terms of Use.
Also on CP
Advertisement
Advertisement
CP Shopping
  • Jewelry
  • Health
  • Gifts
  • Church
  • Coins

Bracelets | Chains | Crosses | Earrings | Gemstone |

Featured contents & Giveaways
Zondervan

Struggling to succeed in the Nashville music scene, talented singer/songwriter Parker James finds the competition fierce even deadly. A young woman's murder, industry corruption, a

Featured Advertiser Links