WASHINGTON – Presidential candidate Mitt Romney will cross the line of no return this week when he delivers the much anticipated speech on his Mormon faith and how it will affect his role as U.S. president if elected.
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(Photo: AP Images / Cheryl Senter)Republican presidential hopeful, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, speaks to the Rotary Club in Manchester, N.H. Monday, Dec. 3, 2007.
The issue of Romney’s Mormon faith has dogged his campaign since the beginning, but has lately intensified as former presidential underdog Mike Huckabee seizes evangelical voters in Iowa with his conservative Christian platform.
Huckabee for the first time took the lead in a Des Moines Register newspaper poll Sunday, beating Romney, who has long been the favorite Republican candidate in the hawkeye state. The poll showed Huckabee overtaking Romney by 29 to 24 percent in Iowa, according to Agence France-Presse.
Romney’s campaign, however, dismissed heavy speculation that its candidate’s decision to speak about his faith is somehow related to Huckabee’s surge in Iowa. Instead, the campaign said the poll had “zero” influence on his decision to give the speech, according to The Politico.
Campaign spokesman Kevin Madden said Romney’s speech on Thursday will be an opportunity for the presidential hopeful to speak about religious liberty, religious tolerance and how his faith will influence his presidency.
“Governor Romney understands that faith is an important issue to many Americans, and he personally feels this moment is the right moment for him to share his views with the nation,” said campaign spokesman Madden, in a statement.
Madden noted that Romney personally made the decision to deliver the speech “sometime last week,” overturning the candidate’s dismissal in mid-November on the prospect of a speech on his Mormon faith.
While Romney’s speech on Mormonism has long been anticipated, it is not without dangers.
“The risk is that it brings to the fore the way Mormonism diverges from conventional Christianity, and it will make people ask the question, ‘Do I really want to vote for someone who believes that conventional Christian churches are ‘apostate?’” said Mathew Schmalz, a religious studies professor at the College of the Holy Cross, to The Associated Press.
Many Christians regard the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the formal name of the Mormon church, as a cult for rewriting the Bible and for its views on its founder Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ among other biblical figures.
A poll last month by AP and Yahoo showed half of those surveyed had expressed discomfort with voting for a Mormon presidential candidate, including 20 percent who said it would make them very uncomfortable.
Despite the potential risks involved with speaking out on the Mormon faith, some experts say it is a step Romney must take.
“It’s something Romney has got to deal with,” said Dennis Goldford, a political science professor at Drake University in Iowa, to AP. “He’s tried to deal with it by underplaying it and not mentioning it, but the emergence of Huckabee – who has defined himself in terms of his religious background – has forced Romney’s hand.”
Romney said Monday that his speech will not focus on the tenets of Mormonism, but rather be a discussion on openness to religion, according to AP. He also plans to share the stage with his wife and sons to support the idea that he holds the same values as most Americans, especially evangelical Christians.
Romney’s speech, “Faith in America,” will take place Thursday, Dec. 6 at the George H.W. Bush Presidential Library in College Station, Texas at 10:30 a.m. EDT.
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Thanks Pastor.
I think I understand well the Nicaean Creed. But I don't agree with it. It does not describe the God of the Bible, in the least degree of accuracy. I am not "confused" at all.
Hesadanza ~ Might wanna check this out . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaean_Creed . . . the source of your confusion on "God".
Also, consult this . . .
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3803/is_199810/ai_n8808757
We Christians sometimes make mistakes because we don't spend enough time studying, or considering sources. Diagnosis, then treatment.
They are one in purpose, deed, action, principle, mission, love, grace, redemption, power, authority, and every other quality EXCEPT their distinct personal individualities. They are distinct persons, yet they are one in principle. That accords with every scripture of the Bible, something that the Trinity is in contradiction with the Bible time and time again throughout.
The Godhead is not multiple Gods, for they are one God.
HesadanzaMon Dec 10, 2007 9:22 am : 0 : 0 Flag
These are three distinct individuals - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Anyone who believes otherwise has been deceived.
So from Jesus' own mouth, it is not evident that he and God are one? This is where the trinity comes in. If you take the scripture I quoted and the scripture you quoted we get the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in3. This is not a 4 th century creed. This is Biblical, if you don't believe that then re-read the versus that both you and I have quoted.
Maybe I mis-understood what you said about Jesus not being God. If I did I'm terribly sorry. I guess what your saying is that you believe in multiple God's. Which by the way is idolatry.
Servent - you love to put words in people's mouths, don't you (which is bearing false witness against your neighbor, a breach against God's commandments).
I have never said that Christ is not God. Christ is God. He is a member of the Godhead; the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Ghost. These three Godhead members make up God, as is clearly evident from the scriptures you quote.
Christ was not a ventriloquist, did not "send" Himself, was not "with" Himself, and He wasn't talking to Himself when He addressed the Father many many times. He also didn't make Himself into the Spirit of God when it descended from heaven after His baptism, or make the heaven speak "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". These are three distinct individuals - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Anyone who believes otherwise has been deceived.
marantha,
do you have some resources/info. on freemasonry? I would really like to know more about it. I really like ot be educated about these types of things in case my congregation ever asks. I am much more enlightened to the cult of mormonism now. Thanks all for sharing the true beliefs of mormons.
Again, let me say to every mormon, we love you and want you to come and know Jesus Christ of the Bible, God in the flesh who was sinless and died for our sins. THank You Jesus for paying the ultimate price so we can have grace and mercy, it is only by your work on the cross that we can come to salvation. I pray that you convict hearts and minds of everyone that reads this post to the true Jesus and what he did for that person on the cross. Jesus we need a Holy Spirit revival in this country please help each and every true Christian stand up and lead the charge against satan. In Jesus name Amen!
HesadanzaSat Dec 08, 2007 6:23 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
and since He is God,
I have seen you say so many times that Christ is not God, now which is it? You say the trinity is 4th century man made. Let's do a quick Bible study and see.
John 1:1; John 1:10; John 1:14
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 12:44-45
44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
John 14:7; John 14:9-11
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Matthew 3:16
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
To the Mormon bashers:
As an agnostic, its interesting to read the bashing of the mormons for what are described as bizarre beliefs. Equally bizarre are the beliefs of non-mormons I read on these posts. Strange, strange stuff. If their is a creator of the universe, it seems unlikey that it is all caught up in what goes on in the little speck in the universe called earth. its more likely that man created god in his own image rather than the other way around. there may very well be a creator, but logic would dictate that its nothing like anything I read here.
Online4Him,
Oh it is supported by the word of God all right, in more ways than one.
See, we have the Bible, which is the word of God. We also have the Book of Mormon, which is the word of God. We have 138 revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants, which are the word of God. We have the Pearl of Great Price which is the word of God. And we have living prophets and apostles that receive revelation from God, which is the direct word of God.
So, I think we're on a pretty sure foundation with the word of God. We've got many sources to check if we think we might be in error on the particulars.
As far as Galations 1:6 goes, have you ever actually considered that we might be preaching the SAME gospel of Jesus Christ?
Yes, we worship God with all our heart, might, mind and strength. We are certainly guilty of that. He is the object of our unending and unyielding devotion and veneration. For Christ commanded, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind" (Matt. 22:37). How much devotion and veneration do you have for God, and His Son, Jesus Christ?
Online4Him, have you truly considered the consequences of spending your life tearing down another Christian faith, especially if it might be a work which Christ the Lord heads personally? I'd be really careful about that. You know, Saul thought he was doing a great service too until he was struck down in the road and heard a voice which said, "Saul, why persecutest thou me?" Saul asked, "Who art thou, Lord?" "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" (Acts 9:3-6). I guess it will take such an experience to convince some of their errors.
Hesadanza,
Have you truly considered the consequences of accepting a faith (Mormonism) that that cannot be supported by the word of God? Consider the following text -
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed - Ga. 1:6.
Definitions of "cult":
* adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
* a system of religious beliefs and rituals
* a religious group that follows a particular theological system
* the rituals and observances of a particular religion
* formal religious veneration
* great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work
* the object of such devotion
If that is a cult, Mormons are guilty as charged, . . . . .
Mormonism definetly qualifies, well said!
Definitions of "cult":
* adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
* a system of religious beliefs and rituals
* a religious group that follows a particular theological system
* the rituals and observances of a particular religion
* formal religious veneration
* great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work
* the object of such devotion
If that is a cult, Mormons are guilty as charged, as is the rest of Christendom.
These unbiblical teachings are exactly why the Mormon church is identified as a cult and the reason why Mitt Romney will not be our next president.
Yes, isn't the restored gospel of Jesus Christ wonderful? These doctrines have been lost for centuries, but now they are revealed from God in heaven anew. I am so grateful for a loving God who knows us, loves us, cares for us, and sends His servants to teach us His will and guide us into ever growing knowledge and light.
And by the way, these doctrines are perfectly in harmony with the holy scriptures. It is the Nicene Creed which departs drastically from what is taught there, and creates a Neoplatonic God which can't be seen, can't be known, and can't be physical. Which basically means that He can't exist in the world as we know it. Doctrines such as these were condemned by Christ and the apostles as the most heretical.
"Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost ...Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954, 1:18).
"Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ..." (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, pg. 150).
Consists of laws and ordinances: "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79)
Heaven
There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, Mormon Doctrine, p. 348.
Holy Ghost, the
The Holy Ghost is a male personage, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, (Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, page 118; Journal of Discources, Vol. 5, page 179.)
Jesus
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15.)
Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)
"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115).
"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547).
God, becoming a god
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.)
"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them," (DC 132:20).
God, many gods
There are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
"And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)
God, mother goddess
There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443.)
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine p. 516.)
God, Trinity
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)
Gospel, the
The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 182-185.)
Devil, the
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)
God
God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (D&C 130:22).
God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3.)
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345
God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105.)
God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, pages 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428.)
God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115.) - This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it.
"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
Hesadanza,
I too am sorry that your group believes that they are teaching the same gospel that Jesus taught; it does not. First of all, my faith is not in creeds but in the word of God. It is obvious to anyone who has a sound knowledge of the scriptures and church history that your group preaches another gospel. We have just met and you have already misrepresented what I have said; “. . . .missionaries too young and foolish”. Go back and re-read my posting; I never said that they were foolish. Yes, you are right when you say that the word “Trinity” is not found in the bible; but the doctrine is. How do you reconcile your group’s unbiblical teachings when it is compared to the bible? For example,
Following are the teachings of its officials throughout the years. Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-Mormon writers.
Finally, many Mormons respond that most of the citations below are not from official Mormon writings, as if that disproves the doctrines they teach. If they are not official, fine. But, if not, then why have the Mormon apostles and high officials taught them, written them, and why are their books sold in Mormon bookstores? The truth is, the following is what Mormons are taught.
Atonement
"Jesus paid for all our sins when He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane," (Laurel Rohlfing, “Sharing Time: The Atonement,” Friend, Mar. 1989, 39.)
"We accept Christ's atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all of the commandments," (Gospel Principles, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1979, pg. 68.)
Baptism
Baptism for the dead, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p. 141.) This is a practice of baptizing each other in place of non-Mormons who are now dead. Their belief is that in the afterlife, the "newly baptized" person will be able to enter into a higher level of Mormon heaven.
Bible
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. . ." 8th Article of Faith of the Mormon Church.
"Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God." (1 Nephi 13:28).
Book of Mormon
The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, 4:461.)
Online4Him - Sorry, we will not teach the meat to our converts before the milk is understood, and neither did the apostles of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 3:2; Heb. 5:12).
Actually, our doctrines are not like those of the traditional mainstream Christianity view. You are right. That theological view has been formed over several centuries of creeds and decrees. Our doctrine most clearly mirrors that which was taught at the time of Christ, and during the very short early Christian time period thereafter. You can call us New Testament Christians, if you like.
The statements in the Nicene Creed are neither Biblical, nor correct. As I have stated before, even the stalwart Harper's Bible Dictionary admits, "the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament]" (Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099; emphasis added.). So if they are not to be found in the New Testament, or Bible, why do you believe in them, since you seem to ONLY believe what is to be found in those select pages of holy writ?
Seedplanter - It is only in and through the name of Christ that we can be saved. Saving, in its most simplistic sense, means to enter heaven. Christ's atonement and resurrection make this saving possible. Christ's atonement enables us to be forgiven for sins. The resurrection will enable all those that have lived upon this earth to regain their physical bodies. Salvation includes entering heaven. It excludes those that are the Sons of Perdition, who will be in outer darkness. Except those Sons of Perdition, all will be saved in heaven, but in various degrees of glory or kingdoms depending on their faithfulness here on earth. Christ is unique in His ability to save because He made an infinite and eternal sacrifice, and since He is God, He was ABLE to make that infinite and eternal sacrifice. No one else could have done that. Did that answer your questions? Was that simple and straightforward enough? If not, I can elaborate.
Online4Him - are the missionaries too young and foolish? "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty" (1 Cor. 1:27). Which is also why Joseph Smith was called as a 14 year old boy.
And the Spirit will testify of the truth. That is why we pray to God to know what is truth (John 14:26, 15:26, 16:13; 1 Cor. 2:13; 1 Jn. 5:6).
maranatha7593,
I have had many recent encounters with Mormon missionaries who continue to come through my neighborhood to promote their religion. These missionaries are far too young to really understand what they are promoting and are really ill equip for a deep bible study. They have even brought elders from their local temple to reinforce their teaching but they too cannot stand under the scrutiny of God’s word and other material that compares their beliefs with true biblical Christianity. Their normal response is - “Where did you get this material or our faith is true because we have prayed and asked heavenly father”. Nevertheless, I too agree that God is capable of opening their eyes to see the true gospel and your assessment of Freemasonry is just as accurate as it was on the Mormons.
If you can answer the following questions honestly, without side-stepping them like a politician, I think it will go a long way in distinguishing Mormonism. If you have confidence in your religion, then don't water it down, be bold and straight-forward.
Hesadanzab says: "Christ is the only one that saves."
What do you mean by saved?
How does Christ save?
What does salvation include and what does it exclude?
Who is saved?
What did Christ do to save us?
What makes Christ unique in his ability to save anyone?
What did Christ do in history to make salvation accessible?
Online4Him, you are correct that the bizarre, blasphemous teachings of Smith and Young are not revealed to recent converts to Mormonism -- those are reserved for later, by which time the convert has usually had his/her mind so deceived, they are ripe to receive those even-worse false teachings. This, by the way, is synonymous with the way Freemasonry handles newbies. They too get the "light stuff" at the beginning, and the heavy stuff is saved for later, after they've been throughly indoctrinated to receive it uncritically. However, we know GOD IS ABLE to save them all, He is able to open their blinded eyes and set the captives free.
"The Nicene Creed isn't written in the Bible either."
Well -- it's not written in the Bible word-for-word, BUT its statements are Biblical and some of them are taken directly from the scriptures. It does NOT contradict the Bible as the Mormon "scriptures" do.
I pray you will allow the Lord to remove the blinders from your eyes, unstop your ears, and awaken your deceived heart to His glorious truth which can make you free.
The doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) are very interesting. Most of the 'odd' ones are not initially taught to potential converts. But they should be. Instead, "they are revealed later as one matures and gains the ability to accept them." The LDS Church tries to make its official doctrines appear Christian but what underlies those Christian sounding terms is far from Christian in meaning.
servent - I never said that Joseph Smith saves. Those are words that you are putting into my mouth. Christ is the only one that saves.
Actually, 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 is a perfect example of the Apostasy that was creeping into the church well before the last apostle was martyred. People were straying from the teachings of the gospel. There were "divisions" already.
Our theology doesn't have to be "Biblical". The Nicene Creed isn't written in the Bible either.
Jesus gave us authority to act in his name. not to SAVE in his name!! Only Jesus can save from Heaven and Hell, not joseph smith or any other mere man, but God himself in Jesus!!
Paul himself condemend the church in Corinth for putting apostels and Christians above where they belong.
1 Corinthians 1:10-17
10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Your theology is so far from Biblical that we can sit here and drive a MAC truck through them (instead of poking holes) but it is going to take God almighty to show you the way the truth and the life in Jesus Christ of the Bible
Continued revelation, period, could be the interpretation of "righteousness shall look down from heaven."
Oh, also you said, "You state these events occurred after the Bible was finished. If the Bible was finished according to your words, what more can Joseph Smith add?" If that were true, what more could the Nicene Creed add to the Bible either? The Bible was already finished. Your own argument defeats you.
Psalms 85:11 says "truth shall spring out of the earth" (Book of Mormon), and "righteousness shall look down from heaven" (the First Vision and the restoration of the priesthood by angels who descended).
Joseph Smith can add whatever the Lord chooses to say. Joseph doesn't set those bounds. If God wants to speak, He will speak!
If only Jesus can holds those keys, then why in the world did He ordain His apostles? What was He ordaining them to? Why didn't Christ do it all Himself? He was giving them the authority to preach and act in His name! How on earth could Paul heal a cripple without Christ's authority and power (Acts 14:8-10)? How could Paul cast an evil spirit out of a woman except by Christ's priesthood authority (Acts 16:16-18)? These are miracles that Christ did when He walked upon the earth. But He was not there anymore. He had given His apostles that authority to act in His name. It is by God's priesthood that these things are done.
Christ is the Supreme Owner of the keys of the priesthood. He Has that authority from the Father. He gives man certain keys of that authority so that they might do His work on earth, including preaching, performing miracles, and officiating in His ordinances. That is the way it has been since Adam. Otherwise there would be no order in God's kingdom on the earth.
I think I understand a little better what you are saying about deeds. We believe that all mankind, except the Sons of Perdition, will be saved in heaven. That is the power of Christ's atonement. But we believe that there are three degrees of glory within that heaven. We believe in order to obtain the highest degree of heaven, the celestial kingdom, one must also obey all the laws and ordinances of God's gospel, be faithful, and endure to the end.
You haven't answered my question about Christ's baptism. If even Christ himself, being the most perfected and holy of all, even a God, had to be baptized to "fulfill all righteousness" then how can we ever think to skirt that required ordinance of the gospel? (Mark 16:16).
Hesadanza - Could you please explain Psalms 85 to me?
"The Bible does not retell the event of Peter, James, and John, and John the Baptist restoring their priesthood authority because that event happened a good 1700 years after the Bible was finished being written. There are plenty of scriptures that prophesy of such a future event (Ps. 85:11), but the actual event is not described in detail because it occurred after the Bible. You can find an account of it in Joseph Smith-History 1:68-75."
You state these events occurred after the Bible was finished. If the Bible was finished according to your words, what more can Joseph Smith add?
"Joseph held the keys to the kingdom because Jesus Christ conferred them to him as His chosen prophet on the earth. Christ still is the ultimate authority of all the keys of the priesthood, and at the Second Coming those keys will be returned to Him who's authority it is, even Jesus Christ, who comes in glory to rule and reign on the earth."
No. Only Jesus Christ holds the keys to heaven and hell. The only reason Christ came to earth was to get back the keys that we as humans GAVE to satan. It would be INSANE for Christ to send his Peter, James and John to give the keys of heaven and hell to Joseph Smith. That TOTALLY contradicts the reasons for Christ coming to earth. Why would Christ give the keys to heaven and hell to Joseph Smith - A man with SIN.
Hesadanza that reasoning makes not an ounce of sense. Only Christ has the keys to heaven and hell and He will not reliquish those keys. Christ is the holder of the keys as He is the KEY. Not a prohet or any other man. I believe in Christ and the work he has done in me not any man and that includes my pastor, my wife, my dad, my kids or Joseph Smith.
In regard to faith and deeds, I emphasized that deeds are not a part of getting into heaven. My point was your faith should produce deeds. As a fruit of your faith. A tree that does not bear fruit is pointless but not a condition of getting into heaven. Now we will be judged based upon our works aside from actually getting into heaven. What did you do with the gifts that God gave you. Have you used those gifts to expand the Kingdom here on earth or saved the gift in a hole in the ground not to be used. Again this has nothing to do with actual salvation.
Joseph held the keys to the kingdom because Jesus Christ conferred them to him as His chosen prophet on the earth. Christ still is the ultimate authority of all the keys of the priesthood, and at the Second Coming those keys will be returned to Him who's authority it is, even Jesus Christ, who comes in glory to rule and reign on the earth.
There is only one way to heaven, and that is in and through the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Lord Omnipotent.
HesadanzaFri Dec 07, 2007 11:16 am : 0 : 0 Flag
Would you put yourself above Christ?
NO!!! But that's exactly what your "savior" joseph smith did!!! when he said he holds the keys to the kingom!!! he is the way to Heaven
Once again, I disagree. There is a whole lot we can do. God has given man commandments, and we must obey God. God's grace is only efficacious if we obey Him! Even Christ himself had to be baptized to "fulfill all righteousness". Would you put yourself above Christ?
According to this Christian, it IS God spoken.
We are not saved by our own doing. The grace of God saves us, but only if we do our part too.
I don't have to show it in the Bible. God has spoken again, and I will not shut Him up.
You say yourself, "we must have both faith and deeds," and then you contradict yourself, "but the deeds have nothing to do with obtaining salvation." If we "must" do it, we "must" do it. There are no options where God's commandments are concerned.
The Bible does not retell the event of Peter, James, and John, and John the Baptist restoring their priesthood authority because that event happened a good 1700 years after the Bible was finished being written. There are plenty of scriptures that prophesy of such a future event (Ps. 85:11), but the actual event is not described in detail because it occurred after the Bible. You can find an account of it in Joseph Smith-History 1:68-75.
Yes. Peter, James and John came down to earth to confer the Melchizedek Priesthood on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Christ ordained them in His own time to His authority, and sent them to ordain Joseph to the same authority.
The one thing that you don't seem to understand is that God confers the authority of His priesthood to man on earth so that they might be His servants and do His work. No one could have done the special work that Christ did in His infinite atonement and sacrifice. An infinite and eternal God had to make that infinite and eternal sacrifice.
"Yes, Nerohdam, there is much we can do to get into heaven. For starters, we can do what God has asked us to do. That includes His commandments. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." God also requires that we participate in ALL of the ordinances of His gospel, including baptism by immersion."
No Hezadanza there is nothing WE can do to get into heaven. It is only what Christ DID that allows us to get into heaven. The only thing we can do is ALLOW Christ into our hearts and ask for forgiveness and we turn away from the things that cause us to sin. ONLY Christ can clear sin. Nothing we do can do the work of Christ. Also we are to keep the commandments but I am at the same time free of the commandments through Christ. The law condemns us. Also the baptism by immersion is immersion by the Holy Spirit. Immersion by water is a public sign but has nothing to do with obtaining salvation. As in it is not a step in the checklist to obtaining salvation. Only those immersed / baptized by the Holy Spirit which I believe happens instantly when one accepts the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.
Hesadanza -
Sorry Hesadanza my Bible does not have the following Books.
According to Christians these are not God spoken -
We are saved by grace, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). Plus to be honest this statement tells me we are saved by our own doing. Once again it is nothing that we do but only what Christ did.
"There are no single angels there (D&C 132)." Again please show me this in the Spirit spoken Bible. I use the NIV version by the way along with the KJV.
Also James admonishes that we do deeds to show honor to God for the gift of Christ and that which is in us compels us to do good deeds. We must have both faith and deeds but the deeds have nothing to do with obtaining salvation. The book of James was for those already saved by the way.
Also please show me in the Bible where "Peter, James, and John, who were ordained by Christ, came down from heaven," I don't recall Peter, James and John coming down from heaven. Also John the Baptist was considered to be Elijah or at least carried on his work.
So you are telling me that Peter, James and John came down to earth to confer Melchizedek Priesthood on o Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery? I am sorry but if Peter, James and John came down from heaven to do this then that nullifies the reason for Christ coming to earth and dying on the cross. Christ could have just stayed in heaven and sent Elijah aka John the Baptist to lay on hands and do the work of Christ. Obviously this is not the case as Christ came down during the same period as John the Baptist. Even John the Baptist with his own tongue professed he was nothing compared to Christ.
I think that God has made provisions for the kind of situation that you refer to Nerohdam. We do not claim to know everything about God, His judgment, and how the final accounting will be.
This I do know with a certainty that I can't express in words. If my wife and I are faithful to the covenants we have made with God and to each other, we will be sealed together for eternity. And nothing is stronger than the sealing power of God's priesthood. For it is His authority, the power by which He works.
This has all been made possible by the sacrifice, atonement, and resurrection of the Savior, Jesus Christ. Without Him, there would not be eternal families. There would be no sealing. He has made it possible.
Yes, Nerohdam, I am making an "investment" in my family to get a "payoff" in heaven, for God has declared that only those who are sealed in the marriage relationship will be able to enter the celestial kingdom of God. There are no single angels there (D&C 132).
Yes, Nerohdam, there is much we can do to get into heaven. For starters, we can do what God has asked us to do. That includes His commandments. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." God also requires that we participate in ALL of the ordinances of His gospel, including baptism by immersion. Those too are commanded by God. "We are saved by grace, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). We must ALL do these things, man and woman. We must follow the admonition of James: "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22). Yes, there is much we can do for the Lord, and much that He has asked us to do.
God restored His authority. Peter, James, and John, who were ordained by Christ, came down from heaven, and by the laying on of hands, conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. John the Baptist also came down from heaven, and by the laying on of hands, conferred the Aaronic Priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Later others returned including Elijah (which was prophesied in Malachi), Elias, and Moses, to restore the keys of God's authority which they possessed in their own day. Thus, God restored the authority of His priesthood back to the earth.
Hesadanza-
"If I am not with my wife, and my wife with me, when we are with the Lord, there is no point in family life at all. Why get married? Why have kids? Why spend my entire life nurturing the love I have for my wife and family, if death would destroy it all. No. Christ provided for better!"
Yes Christ did provide for better. But I do not believe that the both of you will go to heaven if only 1 of you is saved. God wants more than you nurturing the love for your wife. He wants YOU. As much as he wants HER. It has nothing to do with what we do but what Christ does. Unfortunately, it makes it sound like you are making an investment in your family for a payoff to get into heaven. No my friend there is nothing that WE ourselves can do to get into heaven. The only way for your wife and kids to get into heaven is if THEY repent of their sins and accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Nothing I can do or you can do will ever change that...
Hesadanza says: "The authority of God's priesthood has always, and will always, be conferred by the laying on of hands from one who has authority."
On what basis does Smith and LDS assume God's authority?
Here is Romney's speech, if you would like to read it:
http://www.mittromney.com/News/Speeches/Faith_In_America
Here is a good story:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-newvoices0507dec05,0,804997.story
If I am not with my wife, and my wife with me, when we are with the Lord, there is no point in family life at all. Why get married? Why have kids? Why spend my entire life nurturing the love I have for my wife and family, if death would destroy it all. No. Christ provided for better!
Christ was baptized of John the Baptist. Do you deny the efficacy of his baptism by water? If not, then John the Baptist must have had the authority, by God, to baptize. Even John clearly recognized he was much less than Jesus, but Christ asked him to baptize him nonetheless, because Christ recognized one who possessed authority to administer in that ordinance of the gospel. Christ could not baptize himself.
The authority of God's priesthood has always, and will always, be conferred by the laying on of hands from one who has authority.
Christ is the Supreme and Ultimate Final Judge, but there are others who will participate in the judgment process.
Several ancient prophets practiced polygamy, as it is written directly in the Holy Bible, so that argument is null. God will command what is true and correct according to His will. Polygamy is an egregious sin, and anyone participating in it will be excommunicated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo
Ed Decker, a former Mormon made a video a few years back called "The God Makers". The above link is to a portion of that video.
Hezadanza - I am not posting this to antagonize you. Far from it. The point is to learn from each other and for both of us to make decisions based upon the evidence available. The choice as to what we do with the evidence is obviously up to each of us.
May the Good Lord Bless you today and provide wisdom to those who ask and seek. Amen
Umm..Corinthians 11:11 has nothing to do with a wife being your wife in heaven. Again what do you have to say if one's wife is not saved? Does she go to heaven even if you are saved? How can a sinner go to heaven? That would ruin the point of heaven where all things are without sin.
Umm... John the Baptist baptized with water, Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit . Again, vastly different. Again, Christ is greater than John the Baptist but your message would seem to resonate that John the Baptist is greater. Do you deny this?
The gift of the Holy Spirit is conferred by accepting Jesus Christ. There is nothing magical about laying on hands. It is only through Christ. Do you deny this?
Christ gave many to be judges in Isreal yes, but that was before Christ came to earth. Christ is THE Judge. Do you deny this?
Also the holy Spirit of promise if you do more research is also translated as the promised Holy Spirit that will be sent based upon acceptance of Christ.
Another question I have is what is your opinion on polygomy? Did all the wives of the early founders of Mormonism go to heaven? You may state that mormons do not practice polygomy anymore but that was a practice in the "early church" and so a tree can only bear the same type of fruit.
hesadanza,
ephesians 1:13 means the Holy Spirit that was promised. Jesus promised that a comforter would be sent.
You've never heard of the Holy Spirit of Promise? Please see Ephesians 1:13.
John the Baptist had the authority to baptize, that is why Christ sought him out to baptize him.
The gift of the Holy Ghost is conferred by the laying on of hands. Do a little research.
Christ has given many to be judges in Israel. Again, do a little research.
"Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." 1 Corinthians 11:11
Sorry. You are wrong.
"It goes back to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery who received it directly from John the Baptist who came down from heaven and restored the Aaronic priesthood, which has the authority to baptize."
Sorry John the Baptist clearly states that he was not worthy even to tie the shoes of Christ. So who is John the Baptist compared to Christ?
"The gift of the Holy Ghost was also conferred upon me by my father, who was ordained to that priesthood authority."
Only Christ can confer the Holy Spirit after accepting Jesus.
"The judge is our local congregation's bishop, who has been given authority to be the judge of who is and who is not worthy to enter the House of the Lord in his congregation."
I say this with love but your bishop is not worthy to judge who is and is not worthy to enter.
I was married to my sweet, dear wife, for time and all eternity. Because of the atonement and resurrection of the Son of God, He has made it possible for us to be with our families not "until death do us part" for forever.
Again I refer to my previous post about wives and children.
"That sealing promise is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise"
I have never heard of the holy spirit of promise. Show me where he is in the Bible. i am asking this sincerely.
Thank You.
If our teachings are a cult simply because they differ from "historic" Christian theology, then the early Christians were a cult too. They didn't believe what "historic" Christianity has come to believe. They didn't have those teachings. The all-in-one Trinity view of diety is not to be found in the New Testament (Harper's Bible Dictionary).
Hesadanza -
I will now answer my own questions.
"I was baptized by someone in authority, and later given the same authority myself."
I was baptized by the Holy Spirit after accepting Christ and his free gift of forgiveness. That is also who gave me authority as well.
" I was given the gift of the Holy Spirit, also known as the baptism of fire, and thereby have received enhanced insight and understanding of the scriptures that I could not otherwise have."
My gift was given to me by my Father as well through His Son Jesus Christ.
"I was judged worthy to enter a Temple"
The temple was destroyed and rebuilt in 3 days. The Holy Spirit is within me and Christ is Lord and Judge.
" and therein was married for eternity"
While I believe you love your wife. The decisions to accept Christ are yours and yours alone. You wife will not see you in heaven if she has not accepted Christ. I am sorry but I do not see anywhere in the Bible where your earthly wife will be your wife in heaven.
"my children born thereafter sealed to me for eternity."
Again, one's acceptance of Christ is for you and you alone. One's children will have their own choices to accept Christ just like you and I do. Again, one will not see their children in heaven if they do not accept the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.
While we all love our loved ones like our wives and children and the thought of them spending eternity in hell breaks our hearts with sadness and fear, unless they accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior then that is what the Bible says will happen. So, I would think that instead of them relying on us to be thier salvation, that they rely on Jesus.
Thank you for replying Hesadanza.
Why the LDS Church is a Cult
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) claims to be the true Christian church. The LDS church does not like being referred to as a cult, but they are a cult because their teachings differ significantly from historic Christian theology.
The LDS church promotes a theology about the nature of God that is radically different from orthodox Christianity. LDS doctrine states that gods, angels and humans are all different forms of the same beings. These beings begin their existence as spirit children - created through celestial procreation. Not only do we have a heavenly Father, but we also have a heavenly Mother. The spirit children produced by this union are said to be the angels. Some of these angels, led by Satan rebelled against God - becoming the demons. At some point, the obedient spirit children are given physical bodies and come to earth as human beings. Based upon their actions, these human beings will inherit one of three levels of exaltation. Those humans who have followed the "gospel" of the LDS church will go to the celestial kingdom and themselves become gods and goddesses.
Christianity - one God
Christianity is monotheistic - the belief in one God. It originally split from Judaism by recognizing Jesus of Nazareth as the promised Jewish Messiah. The core belief of Judaism that separated it from the pagan cultures surrounding it was monotheism. The Hebrew Shema (pronounced Shmah) says, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord."2 Many other Old Testament verses affirm monotheism.3 Christianity continues the Judaic doctrine that there has been and always will be only one God - Creator, Sustainer, and Savior - over all creation. The concept is specifically stated throughout the New Testament (along with the Hebrew Old Testament). Jesus Himself affirmed the Shema in the Book of Mark
If I may also address Nerohdam's comments.
I too was baptized by someone in authority, who later gave me that authority. That was my father. He received it from his father, who received it from another, and another. It goes back to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery who received it directly from John the Baptist who came down from heaven and restored the Aaronic priesthood, which has the authority to baptize. This authority is always conferred by the laying on of hands by one who is in authority.
The gift of the Holy Ghost was also conferred upon me by my father, who was ordained to that priesthood authority.
The temple is the same temple that has existed since Adam, in which the saints of God go to offer up sacrifices (today our sacrifice is ourselves, our time and talents), devotions, and worship God. The judge is our local congregation's bishop, who has been given authority to be the judge of who is and who is not worthy to enter the House of the Lord in his congregation.
I was married to my sweet, dear wife, for time and all eternity. Because of the atonement and resurrection of the Son of God, He has made it possible for us to be with our families not "until death do us part" for forever.
The sealing promise means that we will have communion with our loved ones forever, if we are faithful. That sealing promise is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, which is directly connected to our Savior, Jesus Christ, for they are of the same Godhead.
FT - the more I study the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, the more my testimony of it grows and grows, like the light that fills the sky at dawn. I am humbled by the incredible wisdom, love, and grace of an all-powerful and all-knowing God who knew what He was doing in the restoration of His gospel. No man could have conceived of it. It is an absolute marvel in my eyes!
The scripture you quote is the exact one that Jesus Christ quoted to Joseph Smith in the First Vision. The people honored not the Lord at that time because their teachings were that of men and not of God. God restored the true principles and ordinances of His gospel, which are required for salvation and exaltation.
Chet - This statement struck me as odd...
"I was baptized by someone in authority, and later given the same authority myself."
Who was that person in authority and who gave you that authority?
" I was given the gift of the Holy Spirit, also known as the baptism of fire, and thereby have received enhanced insight and understanding of the scriptures that I could not otherwise have."
Who conferred the holy spirit to you?
"I was judged worthy to enter a Temple"
What temple? And who was the judge?
" and therein was married for eternity"
Who are you married to?
"my children born thereafter sealed to me for eternity."
Are you telling me that your children are going to heaven because you are going to heaven? What do you mean by your children sealed for eternity? And why are they sealed to you instead of being sealed by the Spirit that seals one to Christ?
In Jesus' day, there were those who had added all sorts of "rules and ordinances" which they said were of God but which were really of men. Jesus described them by quoting Isaiah:
These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
God is not about Masonic temple rituals (and your temple rituals are not ancient). He is about love and GRACE. Like Paul prayed for the Jews, I prays that you will come to learn the truth of God's grace. Paul wrote: "For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge."
Yes, Chet, we must be servants of satan. I would submit that you have not investigated your faith in the detail necessary, or you simply have not been able to do so with an open mind. If you really examine the facts, it is black and white. I doubt there is any way for me to say that without you being somewhat offended.
I make no aspersions about the intelligence of LDS. They are, as a group, as smart or smarter than most. You yourself sound very bright. We humans, though, have an amazing ability to limit ourselves to small, subjective viewpoints. I am not the brightest light on the Christmas tree, but one of my greatest strengths is my ability to see things objectively. I am always the mediator of disputes among friends or family. I can usually see both sides (or all three sides, or all four sides).
In this case, the clear and convincing evidence is against the LDS church. Many former LDS have "light bulb" moments where they figure it out, and when they look back, they cannot believe how they "could have been so blind."
This is a very human trait. So, I believe that you have not closely examined the facts with an objective mind. This is obviously not the place to debate specifics, but if you have any interest in such a discussion, you may email me at ftaggie at yahoo dOt com.
Lol... yes, cartoons are always more truthful than the words of a prophet of God. Why didn't I think of that?
Cartoon banned by the Mormon church
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo
While I realize I should expect the ugliness directed at the Church of Jesus Christ that I’m seeing on this message board, it’s still ugly and offensive.
But I should expect the forces of Satan, and those duped into serving him through their ignorance, to fight the truth. I should expect resentment toward the Church when it has no professional clergy, which poses a financial threat to all others. I should expect resentment when other Churches don’t have prophets and Apostles who stand in the same positions of authority that Peter and his crew did in their ministries. I should expect resentment when I am a member of a Church that although was taken from the earth because of apostasy in ancient times, has been restored by a series of direct appearances of the Savior Himself, one appearance including Heavenly Father as well. I should expect resentment when I am a member of the only Church on earth that offers all of the necessary laws and ordinances of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, such as baptism by those who actually have the authority to do so, endowments, temple marriage for eternity, etc. I should expect resentment when I realize how vital it is to Satan’s agenda to thwart the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as it carries out the will of God as no other church can.
I’m sure some of the reverends who condemned 14 year old Joseph Smith Jr. did so because they were jealous that with all their years in seminaries and preaching for dollars, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ chose to show themselves to him instead of them, and call on him instead of them to restore Christ’s Church with all the laws and ordinances it has ever had in ancient times. And I’m sure that when bigoted anti-mormons realize that we in the Church have the ability to be married for all eternity and have our ancestors and descendants sealed to us as well, and that we are commonly entrusted with the same Priesthood that all of the prophets and Apostles mentioned in the Bible were, they probably get jealous about that too. Jealous, then resentful, and then they bare fangs and claws and we can all see who really has horns.
I chose to hear Jesus’ message for me, delivered by His messengers. I was baptized by someone in authority, and later given the same authority myself. I was given the gift of the Holy Spirit, also known as the baptism of fire, and thereby have received enhanced insight and understanding of the scriptures that I could not otherwise have. I was judged worthy to enter a Temple and therein was married for eternity, my children born thereafter sealed to me for eternity. Anyone reading this can do the same, once they surrender their pride and allow God to define God’s will instead of men.
Of all the myths I’ve been seeing around the various message boards out there, the most offensive one is the allegation that it is taught in the Church of Jesus Christ that Heavenly Father had a physical and sexual relationship with Mary that resulted in the Savior’s conception.
This is obscenely false. While no one understands the mechanics behind how it was done, the male component of the biological elements necessary for conception were placed in Mary. This was not done in the conventional way, and no LDS ever taught such a thing. Personally, I believe that Heavenly Father can travel from one place to another in an instant, kind of like connecting two dots on a piece of paper after it is folded so that the dots are right next to each other, instead of drawing a line from one to the other all the way across, and I believe the aforementioned “component” was transported that way. But that’s a personal opinion. The scriptures, as far as I can tell, don’t offer an in depth explanation and I am thankful for that.
Suffice to say, there is no LDS in the whole world who believes that Jesus was conceived conventionally. We all believe Mary was a virgin until after He was born.
A myth I’m seeing here on this website deals with the lineage of the Lamanites.
First, let’s take a moment to remember that there were twelve tribes of Israel, all considered Hebrews. Those known as Jews were the people of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (after the split into two kingdoms, when the tribe of Benjamin remained loyal to Rehoboam).
Second, let’s realize that Lehi and his descendants were of the tribe of Manasseh. Therefore, they were not Jews. The descendants of the Lamanites are not Jews. You will not find Jewish blood in them, and even if you did DNA test a Hispanic, American Indian, or Polynesian, you would have to remember that they are about 2600 years removed from their common ancestor, have had the blood of other nationalities (mostly European) mixed with theirs, and most importantly, to find a match you would have to find someone else of the tribe of Manasseh, not Judah or Benjamin, to compare the DNA results.
Furthermore, I advise anyone that thinks they need to see the gold plates for themselves before they will believe the full Gospel of Jesus Christ to read the New Testament and pay special attention to the parts where unbelievers exhibit such behavior. Maybe it’s just me, but I was raised (Catholic, by the way) to believe a true Christian believes without being shown physical evidence. I for one do not need to see the gold plates, though anyone can read the testimony of eight witnesses who saw them in a vision, and three witnesses who saw them with their natural eyes and handled them in the flesh.
After reading the first page of comments, I had completely forgotten that the name of this website is "christianpost.com". I had actually, completely forgotten and had assumed that I had stumbled onto some democrat website where the bohemian anti-Christians come to compete in posting blasphemy and malicious flaming.
I can hardly stomach the gross inaccuracies of some of these posts, as well as the vicious bigotry. It sickens me to see people claiming to be Christians behaving this way. Particularly when that's the one and only true Church of Jesus Christ you're deriding. How often do you hear a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints going on with the utmost contempt about how your religion is apostate in its conception and that you barely know the Messiah you profess to love and serve? You have to push a Latter Day Saint pretty far to get that kind of a reaction. I'm seeing it freely spewed in the other direction here, and with no provocation whatever.
I would love to write a lengthy post debunking every anti-mormon myth I've ever heard, to set the record straight, and hopefully bring you all unto Christ (for real), but I don't have the time, nor do you have the time to read it all in one sitting. Frankly, the responsibility rests on you to educate yourselves on the matter before rushing to unrighteous judgment.
I will, however, set the record straight on a few myths in another post.
We have confidence that the Bible is God's word too. We just understand it in the context in which it exists.
And I have had the Spirit testify to me that the Bible is God's word, Joseph Smith was a prophet, that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are real, that the LDS Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ upon the earth today, and that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer, and He leads His saints today, in His church.
All of God's revelations have come through man. I will believe God.
"4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph. 4:4-6).
The pure in heart will recognize and see the truth when they hear it.
You have confidence that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I have confidence that the Bible is God's Word, preserved for us.
I think my confidence is better placed! :)
I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that the Bible is God's Word and that Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet. I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that the God of the Bible is the only true God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that the LDS church is a false church, designed to ruin and deceive millions. But there is GOOD NEWS. Jesus Christ is Lord. He died for your sins, and if you accept Him as He is, and devote your life to Him, you can live with Him in everlasting paradise.
Do not be deceived by the cunning of men. God's grace comes to you not through a supposed "restoration" or through man-made ordinances and rules. His grace comes to you through the blood of Christ, through faith. You are in my prayers, Hesadanza.
The Book of Mormon has been published 100 million times, and some errors were still introduced into that text. We are in the process of trying to fix those, and return to the original as it fell from the lips of the prophet Joseph Smith. See the work of Royal Skousen. That is why Joseph said that the Book of Mormon is the "most" correct of any book. That book isn't perfect either.
I still maintain that we do not have one perfect edition of the Bible that exists today, in any language. If you have one, please let me know and I'll pick it up.
"O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish" (2 Nephi 9:28).
No scholar will be able to produce an edition of the Bible that is perfect as the original writers had it, unless he is chosen, called, and inspired of God to do such a work. Fortunately, we have such a person. His name was Joseph Smith, and he helped clarify much of what we have in the Bible.
"How do we know there is only 1% variance from the original. We do not, because we don't have an original."
This is where you are, respectfully, mistaken. We do know. How? We know through the discipline of textual criticism. Because there are so many thousands of ancient copies, we can identify where changes were made. Because there are so many copies for different times and different locations, we have great confidence in what passages are always the same.
Imagine that St. Paul sends a letter to the church at Corinth. The church receive the letter,a nd during Paul's life, it is copied again and again and again. Corinth sends it to Ephesus. Ephesus sends it to Rome. Rome sends it to 4 other cities. Those cities send it to other cities. Pretty soon, there are dozens or hundreds of exact or near exact copies of Paul's letter. All this occurs, mind you, during Paul's life. No one - not a single person - not even Paul - know where all the copies have gone or how many copies exist. Paul's letter to Corinth has now spread far and wide and been read by many members of "The Way." Now, imagine this process repeated again and again with the other books of the New Testament. By the time the apostles die, and in the years following, there are untold exact or near exact copies of their writings. These copies are in unknown locations. So, anyone who set out to destroy the originals would be faced with an impossible task. The would-be destroyers would not even know where to start!
Now, fast forward 2,000 years. Many thousands of the ancient copies are lost to time. They were swallowed up by the ravages of time and humanity. Many thousands, though, remain.
Because we have so many, we can compare similarities and differences. By this comparison, we can determine with great confidence what Paul first dictated when his scribe wrote the letter to the church at Corinth.
Exactly. Do you know why there have been changes in the Book of Mormon text? Because even in all our efforts to keep the word exactly the same as it fell from the lips of the prophet, errors have been introduced by the scribes, transcribers, editors, typesetters, printers, and between editions.
The same thing has happened with the Bible, but on a much more enormous scale. How do we know there is only 1% variance from the original. We do not, because we don't have an original. Therefore, how do we know that no major Christian doctrine is impacted? Just the translation itself from the Greek to the English impacts the doctrine!! Not to mention all the copies that were made down through history.
Generally, God did preserve His word in the Bible. But he also knew that errors would be introduced to the text and that there would be confusion. That is why he provided another testament of his word in these last days so that we might not be confused. He made His doctrine very clear. In the mouth of two or three witnesses will God establish His word (Deut. 19:15; Matt. 18:16; 2 Cor. 13:1; 2 Ne. 11:3; 2 Ne. 27:14; Ether 5:4; D&C 6:28; D&C 42:80; D&C 128:3).
Hesadanza, there were more than 4,000 changes from the original Book of Mormon text to the one we have today.
You will reply, "Oh, those were mostly spelling and punctuation and things like that." For the most part, you are right - although there were substantive changes as well.... But the changes in the Greek text are similar. The texts have small variations in spelling and such, but less than 1% of variations are of any substance. Of that 1%, no major Christian doctrine is impacted.
So, the bottom line is that the Bible is very reliable. God preserved His Word.
Anyway, that's why we say we believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. There is not one version of the Bible that exists today that is translated perfectly.
Yes, but we do have much of the original manuscript of the translation of the Book of Mormon, which was translated by a prophet of God, I might add.
Still, the copies we have of the Bible are several hundred years after the originals were written. They had to have been copied many many times before then. We'll never be able to know what the original authors wrote until we find an original, or have God reveal it from heaven to His ordained servants.
Yes, you are right. A scholarly translation of the Bible from Greek to English is not an inspired activity. The translation of the Book of Mormon, however, was. A prophet of God was given to translate that book of scripture.
Well, there is no ORIGINAL manuscript of the Book of Mormon. Funny how that alleged angel took the gold plates away!
The fact is that we have GREAT CONFIDENCE in what the original text would have included. Let me explain. We have thousands of copies of the Greek texts - from different times and different locations. We can compare a text from Egypt from the year 236 to a text from Athens from 362 to a text from Rome from 192 to a text from Lyon from 400, etc.
Because we have so many copies, from so many different dates and places, we can see where all the texts agree and where there are differences. By this careful study, we have a very high confidence of what the original authors wrote.
The original authors of the Bible were inspired. The inspired text is found in the Greek. Translation of the Greek is not an inspired activity. It is a scholarly activity.
Again, there is no ORIGINAL manuscript of any part of the Bible still extant. There are plenty of copies that exist, but not one original. There are errors. That is why the Book of Mormon is valuable. It helps to clarify the gospel message when it is misunderstood in the Bible. Both books testify of each other and of the truth of the gospel.
Mormonism never claimed to be "Biblical". We believe in the Bible, read it and teach it, but we do not base our entire religion on it. We have modern revelation from God to living prophets and apostles.
Correction: I've just seen seedplanter's expose of Romney. I'd rate him a 10 in terms of danger, as well.
(Thanks, seedplanter, for those stats. There's no doubt that's representative of the real man.)
Since Romney did just recently "switch his allegiance" on the abortion/homosexuality issues, it's entirely possible that he only did that to garner votes and would switch right back if elected. Hillary calls herself a Christian, but stands against what is right in God's eyes. On a scale of 1-10, I'd say she's a 10 in terms of danger to our country, and I'd probably rate Romney at least an 8 based on his past record.
Actually, Romney just recently turned "conservative". For the great majority of his life, he publicly supported both abortion and the homosexual agenda. We've already seen that Mormonism is not Biblical; is his recent "switch" on those topics representative of that?
Hesadanza, the NT was originally written in Greek. We have more copies today of the Greek manuscripts than were possessed by the KJV translators. We are also better with our knowledge of Koine Greek. For these reasons, Bible translations have gotten better - not worse. The KJV is inferior, and your scholars must know this. It is very pretty, but it has some errors.
As far as changes, you should know that by way of textual criticism, we have excellent confidence in the text so far as every major Christian doctrine is concerned. There is no plain and precious truth missing from the text.
If you want to read some of what Romney has really done in the conservative world, please read:
http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/massleaders
http://www.evangelicalsformitt.org/massresistance
If you would vote for Hillary before Mitt, then you are a very radical liberal. Hillary is about as far as you can go the other way.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. That means, we believe the Bible as it was written by the original authors in their original language.
There have been many many hands that those writings have passed through since the original writers. It has been transcribed and copied over and over again, countless times. We don't have one original manuscript of any part of the Bible to compare our current version to. As such, there are bound to be errors.
Do you remember playing the game "telephone" when you were a child? That's the game where you start with one message at the start of a long line of people, and they each pass the message to the person next to them. On it goes down the line of people, and by the time it gets to the last person in the line the message is very rarely the exactly same message that it started out as.
That is analogous with the Bible and any other writings or messages that pass through many hands. Copying, transcription, and translation are never perfect.
The problem with Mitt is not just that he is a Mormon, he is a liberal Mormon. I would vote for Glenn Beck if he ran for public office. I think he has a keen mind. Mitt on the other hand merely stands for what is politically expedient. I don't know if the man has any convictions, other than getting elected president.
For information on Mitt's problems check out what people from Mass has to say:
http://massresistance.org/romney/
Included is a 28-page comprehensive report released in November describing how Gov. Romney ran for office and governed as a liberal, despite his claims to the contrary.
Articles include:
How Mitt Romney brought "gay marriage" to Massachusetts
Report on the true pro-life views of Gov. Romney
Romney's universal health care includes taxpayer-funded abortions
Romney's Department of Social Services (DSS) honored two "married" men as their "Adoptive Parents of the Year"
While he was Governor, Romney donated $10,000 to radical homosexual "health" group
Letter from 44 conservative leaders across the country to Gov. Mitt Romney - Hand-delivered in December 2006; urged Romney to act to undo his mistakes on "gay" marriage before leaving office. Letter was ignored.
Letter from Mitt Romney to Massachusetts Log Cabin Republicans - While running for US Senate against Ted Kennedy Mitt made big promises to the homosexual lobby.
VIDEO of Romney debating Ted Kennedy in 1994 - Romney arguing that he's more liberal than Ted Kennedy!
Example of Governor's Commission on Gay and Lesbian Youth activities - Your tax dollars at work, under Romney's control.
Romney timeline on "gay" marriage - Here's what happened and when.
VIDEO of Romney disavowing any connection to pro-life movement - during 2002 campaign for Governor.
VIDEO of Romney passionately defending his pro-choice position - during 2002 campaign for Governor.
No, I don't think I'll be voting for Mitt this time around or any other time around. I think I would vote for Hillary before him, at least I wouldn't get my hopes dashed to pieces. Its sad to say, but Mitt reminds me of Robert Tilton.
Huckabee seems to be the most viable presidential hopeful that any good sensed conservative Christian would be inclined to vote for. Tancredo needs to bow out and stop splitting up the votes. Hunter would be my first choice, but he doesn't stand a chance. He should bow out, before its too late to waste the votes. Huckabee has strength of character. He may not be perfect, but he's got a whole lote more consistancy and credablity than the other three guys on the top-tear.
Hesadanza, do Mormons believe the Bible is the Word of God?
If your answer is, "as far as it is translated correctly," what does that mean? Translated from the Greek?
By the way, Joseph Smith did not "rewrite the Bible" as the article writer says. The LDS Church uses the Authorized King James Version of the Holy Bible. It is one of the books we have in our canon of scripture. It is not a rewritten Bible. We read, teach, and preach the KJV Bible. Joseph Smith provided his own inspired translation of a few particular verses in the Bible, but they are not included directly in the text of the KJV Bible that we use.
Ron Paul?? He is the most liberal "conservative" that I have seen yet.
Romney is "gambling?" What an interesting phrase the Christian Post sees fit to use at the top of this article!! There's no gamble, and he isn't going to win. As a resident of the state which he was a Governor, he came across as a big liberal Eastern Socialist Republican who did nothing to impress evangelical Christians that he had anything in common with them. He is an empty suit, but according to one talk show host in Boston - Jay Severin - Severin thinks Romney's the man and this talk show host has lost all his perspective and balance by thinking that he knows more about politics than anyone on the planet. Well, I got news for both Severin and those who support this Mormon apostate - Romney is not going to win. Many Christians, even after he thinks he's going to sway voters with his Kennedy-type speech, many Christians are still very uncomfortable with him. And I, for one, will not vote for him, based on his atrocious record in Massachusetts. He has no qualifications to be President, other than a brief stint as Governor, a hero at the Olympics, his family name, and a lot of money. His is not George Romney, his father, but Mitt Romney...he's a Trojan Horse and an opportunist who has wiffled and waffled and flipped and flopped for many years. Who knows what he believes? He might change tomorrow. Vote Ron Paul!!! He's the ONLY true conservative. Mitt Romney doesn't even understand basic civics, given his record in Massachusetts and he NEVER opposed homosexual marriage, but forced city clerks to abide by the law. What law??? He believes the judiciary makes the law. And we want him as President???? God forbid!!!
We do believe that "conventional" or "traditional" Christianity, in some of its doctrines and beliefs, has strayed from what Christ originally taught. Protestantism believed the same thing when it broke from the Catholic tradition. But that does not mean that we don't have a whole lot in common.
We all believe that Christ is the Son of God, that He is our Savior and Redeemer, and that it is only in and through the name of Christ the Lord that we can be saved.
We all believe in the Holy Bible, and do our best to follow its teachings, and the teachings of the Christ in the Bible.
We also believe and practice in doing good to all men, and that which is virtuous, lovely, or of good report, or praiseworthy.
We all believe that there is an omniscient, omnipotent, and omni-loving God out there that cares for each of us deeply.
Every denomination has its own set of particular beliefs, even between the Christian churches. It's our similarities that makes Christianity a powerful influence for good in the world.
S-e-e ya, Mitt,.....Catch up with ya on "Larry King, Live" and/or joining the "Beltway Boys".....
strudel - but is he tall enough? :o
Sandra Tanner's website:
http://www.utlm.org/
If some guy went around saying that his "Heavenly Father" was originally a man from another planet orbiting the star Kolob, who has eternal polygamous sex with his many goddess wives, you'd probably call him a kook. And for sure you wouldn't elect them President of the United States - and by implication, the Free World.
Yet here is Mitt Romney, a Mormon, who believes just that. (Of course, the LDS church instructs their missionaries and representatives NOT to divulge this little tidbit until AFTER a person is adequately converted ... so most people just think of their Mormon neighbors as being "just another denomination of Christians.")
Thank God for Sandra Tanner (great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young, who left the cult and warns Christians and non-Christians alike about what the Mormons REALLY believe) !!!
Yes, but he has such nice hair... :D
strudel - yes, there is a lot to be said for someone who is raised with good values. And I do find it problematic that Romney seems to have flipped some on moral issues, I get concerned over the "political" aspects of these things. But there is something else, in spite of all our debate over real christianity versus bogus christianity and how important it is relative to a president's fitness for the office, and that is this: Do I really want a president who believes that he can be a god of another world when he dies? Think about that and the possible implications. What we believe cannot help but color our actions and decisions.
“The Jaredites grew to a civilization that exceeded two million people just prior to its destruction.[3] They finally destroyed themselves about the time Lehi and the other refugees from Jerusalem arrived in America”
“The Lamanites became a larger portion of the population until, some time after AD 400, the Nephite people were destroyed in a series of large wars with the Lamanites.[5]”
Ok, People actually believe this. They kept on fighting till they destroyed themselves. According to Joseph Smith, these were the ancestors to the American Indians. Where's the bloodline? Jews record the bloodline for historical records.
These Jews who came to the America forgot God, until Christ came to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith did what God (Himself) was not able to do. A mere man vested God at holding together the church.... Ok Ok...you got me...hahahaha! I love a good laugh.
With photche on this one.
Ft, your presentation is great. You have explained this issue very well.
You gave a link: http://www.lhvm.org/dna.htm
This leads to a video titled "DNA vs the Book of Mormon". I would strongly recommend that any one who claims to be Christian, watch this video. In reading the Bible it is very evident that the Jews are God’s chosen people. After the time of Christ, about 70 AD, most Jews were driven out of their promised land and dispersed around the known world. Close to sixty years ago Israel became a nation after 1900 years of not being in the land of their fore fathers. People alive today have seen God's hand on these people. They have been the victims of hatred around the world. Yet as a people they have held on to their religion, many times at the cost of their lives. Today the Jews go around the world to find other Jews and bring them back to Israel, their promised land. These people they find have held on to their religious traditions for those 1900 years. Now through DNA testing these people can prove their Jewish heritage beyond a shadow of a doubt, the same type of evidence we use in a court of law. People are proven innocent or guilty based on DNA evidence alone.
Now, this brings us back to the issue of Native Americans having Jewish ancestors. As mentioned above, Jewish people have held on to their religious beliefs long after being driven from the land of Israel. The Book of Mormon claims to be the story of Jews, Jaredites, Lamanites, and Nephites, who at different periods, came across the ocean from the Middle East in ships, traveling thousands of miles and landing in the Americas.
The Quotes below come from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaredites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamanites
“The Jaredites grew to a civilization that exceeded two million people just prior to its destruction.[3] They finally destroyed themselves about the time Lehi and the other refugees from Jerusalem arrived in America”
“According to The Book of Mormon, the family of Lehi (a wealthy Hebrew merchant and prophet), the family of Ishmael, and Zoram traveled from the Middle East circa 600 BC to the Americas by boat. Some time after the death of Lehi (in the Americas), Nephi (Lehi's fourth son) overheard that his brothers were plotting to kill him, so he (Nephi) and his followers left and went into the wilderness. The followers of Nephi called themselves Nephites, though made up of several groups, such as the Jospehites, Jacobites, and Zoramites. The followers of Laman (Lehi's oldest son) were called Lamanites, though made up of Ishmaelites, Lemuelites, and various other groups of Nephites.[1]”
“The Lamanites became a larger portion of the population until, some time after AD 400, the Nephite people were destroyed in a series of large wars with the Lamanites.[5]”
From the Book of Mormon we find that these Jewish immigrates numbered in the millions. The Book of Mormon claims that the Lamanites are “among the ancestors of the American Indians.” So this raises some major questions.
1. If the American Indians have Jewish ancestry, why haven’t they returned to Israel just like the other Jews who have been spread around the world?
2. How come modern day Jews from Israel haven’t tried to prove the Jewish heritage of the American Indians and brought them back to their promised land?
3. Every where else around the world the dispersed Jews have held on to their religion as well as traditions from their Hebrew heritage. Where is this evidence among the American Indians?
The questions could go on and on and on, but the question that intrigues me most is this:
WHY WOULD ANY JEW WRITE HIS HOLY SCRIPTURE IN REFORMED EGYPTIAN ON GOLDEN PLATES? WOULD HE NOT HAVE WRITEN IN HEBREW?
What I find amazing is that out of 350 million people these 12 people are the best we can come up with. Honestly, we have very little to hope for in this election. I just hope we Republicans win out because if not... it is going to be a very long 4 to 8 years.
photche, you are wrong. Mormon follow teaching of Joseph Smith. Christian follow the teaching of Jesus Christ. From the basic credo I've heard, Mormons are just far off the Gospel of Christ as other pagans.
1) Jesus was not begotten of the Holy Spirit. He is the first of the human family . Wrong.
2) Lucifer was the spirit brother of Jesus who desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind..... Wrong again.
3) Jesus was the bridgegroom at the marriage of Cana... Wrong still.
4) Joseph Smith: I have more to boast than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus (Himself) ever did it. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. ....Pure blashemy!!!
5) No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith... Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, Junior as a passport to their entrance inot the mansion where God and Christ are.... Yes, Joseph Smith is doing one thing correct. He knows how lead me in to Hell and gives them a certificate to boot.
6) Joseph Smith will recieve the keys of the resurrection.... Wait on it, you'll be standing at the Great White Throne of Judgement.
7) God concocted a plan to create the world and people. God does not concocted a plan. God is perfect wisdom. He doesn't have to skeem anything together.
You don't know the truth behind Christianty to stand and profess wisdom. There are some Christian who haven't gotten it right yet. But mormon are going down a road with a dead leader who can't lead himself. He is self righteous and puffed up. God says when we compare our righteous to His; it is like filty rags. Christ's righteous does not compare to Josep Smith who needed a savior. He did not die for anyone. He is not mention in the Bible; It wasn't an omission. He wasn't God Lamb...Christ was. Please read a real Bible and find out for yourself.
I am not personally a Mormon, but I used to be very close friends with one. From my experience, I can tell you that Mormons are extremely family-centered and, in many cases, much more faithful to Jesus Christ and His teachings than most regular Christians I've ever met. The Mormons I've met are very wholesome and good; clean cut and happy. My friend grew up in a Mormon household (in NJ) - they used to pray together as a family every evening, and always went to church together as a family on Sundays. They had a lot of little rules that I thought were kinda strange when I was younger (since my family didn't observe them), but now I think that their "rules" were good ones - like not watching R rated movies and staying away from caffeine and alcohol. When I went to college, my friend went on a mission for two years and really learned about his faith and how to teach it to others. He's one of the smartest people I know, yet he decided to go to BYU after his mission and, as far as I know, he's still a very happy Mormon.
He used to teach me about how Joseph Smith founded the Church of Latter Day Saints and he used to encourage me to read the Book of Mormon. I just wasn't interested and still don't believe in his religion (or denomination, whatever you'd call it).. but I would still defend Mormons as people any day of the week. The many I've met were, 9 times out of 10, more God-fearing and faithful and good than the regular Christians in my life.
I'm not sure if I'll vote for Romney. I'm not sure I like that he's changed his stance on a few different topics. But I would never NOT vote for him because he's a Mormon, especially if the alternative is someone like Guiliani, who calls himself Catholic but is pro-choice and pro-gay marriage.
Hopefully this speech will cause Romney to tank in the polls.
Wake up America, Wake up Christians... Ron Paul has the honesty, integrity, constancy and humility to be one the best Presidents this nation has ever had...
http://christiansforronpaul.com/
www.ronpaul2008.com/issues
PART 4
There is much more to the Mormon issues, but I hope you can see how reasonable people could doubt the judgment of a man who bases his entire life on a thoroughly discredited religion. Good man? Probably. Good policy views? Don't know enough about them. Good enough for the oval office? Not if he is a believing Mormon.
CAVEAT: I wrote this post earlier this year. Since that time, people have argued that bad judgment as to religion does not necessarily translate into bad judgment on other matters. In other words, Romney could be a whiz at governing even though he was duped by Joseph Smith and company on religious matters. There is some merit to this argument. Still, I find it hard to trust the guy given the availability of the FACTUAL evidence against his faith.
We cannot throw reason out the door when it comes to religion. Let me say again that I am not concerned about Romney's faith issues - but rather his judgment. Mormonism teaches that you can progress to become a "god" with all the powers of Jesus. If Romney believes that - fine, that is a matter of faith. I have no problem.
If he believes Joseph Smith could interpret Egyptian, then I have a big problem - because it has been proven otherwise. See the difference?
PART 3
Second, consider one of the other Mormon scriptures: The Book of Abraham. Much of Mormonism's unique theology comes from this book. The origin of this book is one of the clearest proofs against Mormonism. Joseph Smith purchased some papyrus that was found with an Egyptian mummy and was part of a traveling museum show. At the time, no one in the USA knew how to interpret Egyptian hieroglyphs. Joseph Smith took it upon himself to "translate" the papyrus he bought. The result was the "Book of Abraham" - a tale of Abraham's trip to Egypt where he was almost killed by an evil Egyptian priest and where he sat on Pharaoh's throne and explained astrology to the Egyptians.
Well, once Egyptologists learned to read hieroglyphs, and once the papyrus was analyzed, it turns out that Joseph Smith made the whole thing up. The papyrus was nothing more than a common funerary text. (Details here: http://www.bookofabraham.info/)
Whether one becomes or remains a Mormon should have little to do with faith. It has to do with simple reason. Think about it this way: If I tell you I have a marble in my closed fist, you may, on faith, believe me. If I open my hand and show you that there is no marble, then the truth trumps your faith.
For Mormonism, the hand has been opened, and there is no marble to be seen. Only those who do not investigate or who suffer from cognitive dissonance can accept Mormonism's claims.
You may be thinking, "Wait, can't you make that argument about any religion? Couldn't you say that someone who believes the Red Sea parted or Lazarus rose from the dead or Jesus was resurrected is being 'irrational'? If you apply this standard, doesn't every religion fail?" No, and here is why. Those kinds of examples (raising the dead, etc.) all depend on the miraculous power of God. Reasonable people can assume the possibility of the miraculous. If you believe in God, then you can believe that He can do miracles such as raising the dead and parting the Red Sea. The Book of Mormon is stuffed full of such miracles attributed to God. I have no quarrel with those who acknowledge the possibility of the miraculous, and I have no complaints about Mormons for their belief in miracles. Allowing for miracles, though, is quite different than ignoring factual claims.
PART 2
You are probably thinking, "OK, but your thesis depends on an assumption that Mormonism can be disproved. That sounds unlikely to me."
Not really.
Mormonism can be disproved for many reasons but primarily because of the audacious nature of its claims. There are two prime examples.
First, Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is the story of a Hebrew tribe that emigrated to the Americas and founded an advanced, flourishing society of Christians that lasted nearly 1,000 years.
Archaeology can test this claim. If the Book of Mormon recorded actual historical events, then there are quite a few things that which archaeologists would discover. There would exist the remains of a vast civilization on the American continents which, between 600 BC and 400 AD, planted wheat and barley, had a Judeo-Christian religion, used a hybrid form of Egyptian and Hebrew language and script, used horses, had the wheel, rode chariots, used smelted iron and steel, fought great battles with armor and swords, created democratic institutions, etc. (All such things are described in detail in the Book of Mormon.)
No trace of such a civilization has ever been found, and it never will be. (See: http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/testingthebookofmormon.htm) DNA evidence has also disproved these claims. (Details are here: http://www.lhvm.org/dna.htm)
PART 1
Assume with me for just a moment that Mormonism is not just another religion. Assume that it can be literally disproved. Unless you have studied Mormonism (most haven't), you cannot know whether it can be disproved or not, but just assume it can be.
With that assumption, consider: I would likely not vote for Mitt Romney.
Why: I do not apply a religious test to the presidency, but I do apply a judgment test. While I would vote without hesitation for the right candidate of mainstream religions such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism or Buddhism, I would not vote for a candidate who clings to an outlandish religion such as the Raelian religion or Mormonism. If a person can be duped by a fringe religion (Raelians), or a cult (Moonies) or a religion that has been proven false (Mormonism), then that person lacks the judgment for the oval office. Again, this is a judgment test rather than a religious test.
I think many people will feel this way about Mitt Romney - regardless of his policy views.
Presidents must have both good judgment and good character. While I am sure Mr. Romney has good character, if he is a temple-recommend-holding Mormon, he lacks good judgment.