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Society|Tue, Dec. 04 2007 06:52 AM EST

Romney to Gamble Votes with Mormon Speech

By Michelle Vu|Christian Post Reporter

WASHINGTON – Presidential candidate Mitt Romney will cross the line of no return this week when he delivers the much anticipated speech on his Mormon faith and how it will affect his role as U.S. president if elected.

  • Mitt Romney
    (Photo: AP Images / Cheryl Senter)
    Republican presidential hopeful, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, speaks to the Rotary Club in Manchester, N.H. Monday, Dec. 3, 2007.

The issue of Romney’s Mormon faith has dogged his campaign since the beginning, but has lately intensified as former presidential underdog Mike Huckabee seizes evangelical voters in Iowa with his conservative Christian platform.

Huckabee for the first time took the lead in a Des Moines Register newspaper poll Sunday, beating Romney, who has long been the favorite Republican candidate in the hawkeye state. The poll showed Huckabee overtaking Romney by 29 to 24 percent in Iowa, according to Agence France-Presse.

Romney’s campaign, however, dismissed heavy speculation that its candidate’s decision to speak about his faith is somehow related to Huckabee’s surge in Iowa. Instead, the campaign said the poll had “zero” influence on his decision to give the speech, according to The Politico.

Campaign spokesman Kevin Madden said Romney’s speech on Thursday will be an opportunity for the presidential hopeful to speak about religious liberty, religious tolerance and how his faith will influence his presidency.

“Governor Romney understands that faith is an important issue to many Americans, and he personally feels this moment is the right moment for him to share his views with the nation,” said campaign spokesman Madden, in a statement.

Madden noted that Romney personally made the decision to deliver the speech “sometime last week,” overturning the candidate’s dismissal in mid-November on the prospect of a speech on his Mormon faith.

While Romney’s speech on Mormonism has long been anticipated, it is not without dangers.

“The risk is that it brings to the fore the way Mormonism diverges from conventional Christianity, and it will make people ask the question, ‘Do I really want to vote for someone who believes that conventional Christian churches are ‘apostate?’” said Mathew Schmalz, a religious studies professor at the College of the Holy Cross, to The Associated Press.

Many Christians regard the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the formal name of the Mormon church, as a cult for rewriting the Bible and for its views on its founder Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ among other biblical figures.

A poll last month by AP and Yahoo showed half of those surveyed had expressed discomfort with voting for a Mormon presidential candidate, including 20 percent who said it would make them very uncomfortable.

Despite the potential risks involved with speaking out on the Mormon faith, some experts say it is a step Romney must take.

“It’s something Romney has got to deal with,” said Dennis Goldford, a political science professor at Drake University in Iowa, to AP. “He’s tried to deal with it by underplaying it and not mentioning it, but the emergence of Huckabee – who has defined himself in terms of his religious background – has forced Romney’s hand.”

Romney said Monday that his speech will not focus on the tenets of Mormonism, but rather be a discussion on openness to religion, according to AP. He also plans to share the stage with his wife and sons to support the idea that he holds the same values as most Americans, especially evangelical Christians.

Romney’s speech, “Faith in America,” will take place Thursday, Dec. 6 at the George H.W. Bush Presidential Library in College Station, Texas at 10:30 a.m. EDT.

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  • Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks Pastor.

    I think I understand well the Nicaean Creed. But I don't agree with it. It does not describe the God of the Bible, in the least degree of accuracy. I am not "confused" at all.

  • Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hesadanza ~ Might wanna check this out . . .

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaean_Creed . . . the source of your confusion on "God".

    Also, consult this . . .

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3803/is_199810/ai_n8808757

    We Christians sometimes make mistakes because we don't spend enough time studying, or considering sources. Diagnosis, then treatment.

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    They are one in purpose, deed, action, principle, mission, love, grace, redemption, power, authority, and every other quality EXCEPT their distinct personal individualities. They are distinct persons, yet they are one in principle. That accords with every scripture of the Bible, something that the Trinity is in contradiction with the Bible time and time again throughout.

    The Godhead is not multiple Gods, for they are one God.

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    HesadanzaMon Dec 10, 2007 9:22 am : 0 : 0 Flag
    These are three distinct individuals - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Anyone who believes otherwise has been deceived.

    So from Jesus' own mouth, it is not evident that he and God are one? This is where the trinity comes in. If you take the scripture I quoted and the scripture you quoted we get the idea of 3-in-1 and 1-in3. This is not a 4 th century creed. This is Biblical, if you don't believe that then re-read the versus that both you and I have quoted.

    Maybe I mis-understood what you said about Jesus not being God. If I did I'm terribly sorry. I guess what your saying is that you believe in multiple God's. Which by the way is idolatry.

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Servent - you love to put words in people's mouths, don't you (which is bearing false witness against your neighbor, a breach against God's commandments).

    I have never said that Christ is not God. Christ is God. He is a member of the Godhead; the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Ghost. These three Godhead members make up God, as is clearly evident from the scriptures you quote.

    Christ was not a ventriloquist, did not "send" Himself, was not "with" Himself, and He wasn't talking to Himself when He addressed the Father many many times. He also didn't make Himself into the Spirit of God when it descended from heaven after His baptism, or make the heaven speak "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". These are three distinct individuals - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Anyone who believes otherwise has been deceived.

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    marantha,

    do you have some resources/info. on freemasonry? I would really like to know more about it. I really like ot be educated about these types of things in case my congregation ever asks. I am much more enlightened to the cult of mormonism now. Thanks all for sharing the true beliefs of mormons.

    Again, let me say to every mormon, we love you and want you to come and know Jesus Christ of the Bible, God in the flesh who was sinless and died for our sins. THank You Jesus for paying the ultimate price so we can have grace and mercy, it is only by your work on the cross that we can come to salvation. I pray that you convict hearts and minds of everyone that reads this post to the true Jesus and what he did for that person on the cross. Jesus we need a Holy Spirit revival in this country please help each and every true Christian stand up and lead the charge against satan. In Jesus name Amen!

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    HesadanzaSat Dec 08, 2007 6:23 pm : 0 : 0 Flag
    and since He is God,

    I have seen you say so many times that Christ is not God, now which is it? You say the trinity is 4th century man made. Let's do a quick Bible study and see.

    John 1:1; John 1:10; John 1:14
    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    John 12:44-45
    44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
    45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

    John 14:7; John 14:9-11
    7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
    9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
    10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    Matthew 3:16
    16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To the Mormon bashers:

    As an agnostic, its interesting to read the bashing of the mormons for what are described as bizarre beliefs. Equally bizarre are the beliefs of non-mormons I read on these posts. Strange, strange stuff. If their is a creator of the universe, it seems unlikey that it is all caught up in what goes on in the little speck in the universe called earth. its more likely that man created god in his own image rather than the other way around. there may very well be a creator, but logic would dictate that its nothing like anything I read here.

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Online4Him,

    Oh it is supported by the word of God all right, in more ways than one.

    See, we have the Bible, which is the word of God. We also have the Book of Mormon, which is the word of God. We have 138 revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants, which are the word of God. We have the Pearl of Great Price which is the word of God. And we have living prophets and apostles that receive revelation from God, which is the direct word of God.

    So, I think we're on a pretty sure foundation with the word of God. We've got many sources to check if we think we might be in error on the particulars.

    As far as Galations 1:6 goes, have you ever actually considered that we might be preaching the SAME gospel of Jesus Christ?

    Yes, we worship God with all our heart, might, mind and strength. We are certainly guilty of that. He is the object of our unending and unyielding devotion and veneration. For Christ commanded, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind" (Matt. 22:37). How much devotion and veneration do you have for God, and His Son, Jesus Christ?

    Online4Him, have you truly considered the consequences of spending your life tearing down another Christian faith, especially if it might be a work which Christ the Lord heads personally? I'd be really careful about that. You know, Saul thought he was doing a great service too until he was struck down in the road and heard a voice which said, "Saul, why persecutest thou me?" Saul asked, "Who art thou, Lord?" "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" (Acts 9:3-6). I guess it will take such an experience to convince some of their errors.

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hesadanza,

    Have you truly considered the consequences of accepting a faith (Mormonism) that that cannot be supported by the word of God? Consider the following text -


    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed - Ga. 1:6.

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Definitions of "cult":

    * adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
    * a system of religious beliefs and rituals
    * a religious group that follows a particular theological system
    * the rituals and observances of a particular religion
    * formal religious veneration
    * great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work
    * the object of such devotion

    If that is a cult, Mormons are guilty as charged, . . . . .

    Mormonism definetly qualifies, well said!

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Definitions of "cult":

    * adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
    * a system of religious beliefs and rituals
    * a religious group that follows a particular theological system
    * the rituals and observances of a particular religion
    * formal religious veneration
    * great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work
    * the object of such devotion

    If that is a cult, Mormons are guilty as charged, as is the rest of Christendom.

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    These unbiblical teachings are exactly why the Mormon church is identified as a cult and the reason why Mitt Romney will not be our next president.

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Yes, isn't the restored gospel of Jesus Christ wonderful? These doctrines have been lost for centuries, but now they are revealed from God in heaven anew. I am so grateful for a loving God who knows us, loves us, cares for us, and sends His servants to teach us His will and guide us into ever growing knowledge and light.

    And by the way, these doctrines are perfectly in harmony with the holy scriptures. It is the Nicene Creed which departs drastically from what is taught there, and creates a Neoplatonic God which can't be seen, can't be known, and can't be physical. Which basically means that He can't exist in the world as we know it. Doctrines such as these were condemned by Christ and the apostles as the most heretical.

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost ...Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954, 1:18).

    "Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ..." (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, pg. 150).

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Consists of laws and ordinances: "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79)

    Heaven

    There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, Mormon Doctrine, p. 348.

    Holy Ghost, the

    The Holy Ghost is a male personage, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, (Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, page 118; Journal of Discources, Vol. 5, page 179.)

    Jesus

    The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)
    Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15.)
    Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)
    "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
    "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115).
    "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547).

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    God, becoming a god

    After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.)
    "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them," (DC 132:20).

    God, many gods
    There are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
    "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)

    God, mother goddess

    There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443.)
    God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine p. 516.)

    God, Trinity

    The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)

    Gospel, the

    The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 182-185.)

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Devil, the

    The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
    Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
    A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)

    God

    God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)
    "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (D&C 130:22).
    God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3.)
    "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345
    God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105.)
    God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, pages 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428.)
    God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115.) - This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it.
    "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hesadanza,

    I too am sorry that your group believes that they are teaching the same gospel that Jesus taught; it does not. First of all, my faith is not in creeds but in the word of God. It is obvious to anyone who has a sound knowledge of the scriptures and church history that your group preaches another gospel. We have just met and you have already misrepresented what I have said; “. . . .missionaries too young and foolish”. Go back and re-read my posting; I never said that they were foolish. Yes, you are right when you say that the word “Trinity” is not found in the bible; but the doctrine is. How do you reconcile your group’s unbiblical teachings when it is compared to the bible? For example,

    Following are the teachings of its officials throughout the years. Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-Mormon writers.

    Finally, many Mormons respond that most of the citations below are not from official Mormon writings, as if that disproves the doctrines they teach. If they are not official, fine. But, if not, then why have the Mormon apostles and high officials taught them, written them, and why are their books sold in Mormon bookstores? The truth is, the following is what Mormons are taught.

    Atonement

    "Jesus paid for all our sins when He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane," (Laurel Rohlfing, “Sharing Time: The Atonement,” Friend, Mar. 1989, 39.)
    "We accept Christ's atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all of the commandments," (Gospel Principles, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1979, pg. 68.)

    Baptism

    Baptism for the dead, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p. 141.) This is a practice of baptizing each other in place of non-Mormons who are now dead. Their belief is that in the afterlife, the "newly baptized" person will be able to enter into a higher level of Mormon heaven.

    Bible

    "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. . ." 8th Article of Faith of the Mormon Church.
    "Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God." (1 Nephi 13:28).

    Book of Mormon
    The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, 4:461.)

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Online4Him - Sorry, we will not teach the meat to our converts before the milk is understood, and neither did the apostles of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 3:2; Heb. 5:12).

    Actually, our doctrines are not like those of the traditional mainstream Christianity view. You are right. That theological view has been formed over several centuries of creeds and decrees. Our doctrine most clearly mirrors that which was taught at the time of Christ, and during the very short early Christian time period thereafter. You can call us New Testament Christians, if you like.

    The statements in the Nicene Creed are neither Biblical, nor correct. As I have stated before, even the stalwart Harper's Bible Dictionary admits, "the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament]" (Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099; emphasis added.). So if they are not to be found in the New Testament, or Bible, why do you believe in them, since you seem to ONLY believe what is to be found in those select pages of holy writ?

    Seedplanter - It is only in and through the name of Christ that we can be saved. Saving, in its most simplistic sense, means to enter heaven. Christ's atonement and resurrection make this saving possible. Christ's atonement enables us to be forgiven for sins. The resurrection will enable all those that have lived upon this earth to regain their physical bodies. Salvation includes entering heaven. It excludes those that are the Sons of Perdition, who will be in outer darkness. Except those Sons of Perdition, all will be saved in heaven, but in various degrees of glory or kingdoms depending on their faithfulness here on earth. Christ is unique in His ability to save because He made an infinite and eternal sacrifice, and since He is God, He was ABLE to make that infinite and eternal sacrifice. No one else could have done that. Did that answer your questions? Was that simple and straightforward enough? If not, I can elaborate.

    Online4Him - are the missionaries too young and foolish? "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty" (1 Cor. 1:27). Which is also why Joseph Smith was called as a 14 year old boy.

    And the Spirit will testify of the truth. That is why we pray to God to know what is truth (John 14:26, 15:26, 16:13; 1 Cor. 2:13; 1 Jn. 5:6).

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    maranatha7593,

    I have had many recent encounters with Mormon missionaries who continue to come through my neighborhood to promote their religion. These missionaries are far too young to really understand what they are promoting and are really ill equip for a deep bible study. They have even brought elders from their local temple to reinforce their teaching but they too cannot stand under the scrutiny of God’s word and other material that compares their beliefs with true biblical Christianity. Their normal response is - “Where did you get this material or our faith is true because we have prayed and asked heavenly father”. Nevertheless, I too agree that God is capable of opening their eyes to see the true gospel and your assessment of Freemasonry is just as accurate as it was on the Mormons.

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    If you can answer the following questions honestly, without side-stepping them like a politician, I think it will go a long way in distinguishing Mormonism. If you have confidence in your religion, then don't water it down, be bold and straight-forward.

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hesadanzab says: "Christ is the only one that saves."

    What do you mean by saved?

    How does Christ save?

    What does salvation include and what does it exclude?

    Who is saved?

    What did Christ do to save us?

    What makes Christ unique in his ability to save anyone?

    What did Christ do in history to make salvation accessible?

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:30 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Online4Him, you are correct that the bizarre, blasphemous teachings of Smith and Young are not revealed to recent converts to Mormonism -- those are reserved for later, by which time the convert has usually had his/her mind so deceived, they are ripe to receive those even-worse false teachings. This, by the way, is synonymous with the way Freemasonry handles newbies. They too get the "light stuff" at the beginning, and the heavy stuff is saved for later, after they've been throughly indoctrinated to receive it uncritically. However, we know GOD IS ABLE to save them all, He is able to open their blinded eyes and set the captives free.

  • Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "The Nicene Creed isn't written in the Bible either."

    Well -- it's not written in the Bible word-for-word, BUT its statements are Biblical and some of them are taken directly from the scriptures. It does NOT contradict the Bible as the Mormon "scriptures" do.

    I pray you will allow the Lord to remove the blinders from your eyes, unstop your ears, and awaken your deceived heart to His glorious truth which can make you free.

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) are very interesting. Most of the 'odd' ones are not initially taught to potential converts. But they should be. Instead, "they are revealed later as one matures and gains the ability to accept them." The LDS Church tries to make its official doctrines appear Christian but what underlies those Christian sounding terms is far from Christian in meaning.

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    servent - I never said that Joseph Smith saves. Those are words that you are putting into my mouth. Christ is the only one that saves.

    Actually, 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 is a perfect example of the Apostasy that was creeping into the church well before the last apostle was martyred. People were straying from the teachings of the gospel. There were "divisions" already.

    Our theology doesn't have to be "Biblical". The Nicene Creed isn't written in the Bible either.

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jesus gave us authority to act in his name. not to SAVE in his name!! Only Jesus can save from Heaven and Hell, not joseph smith or any other mere man, but God himself in Jesus!!

    Paul himself condemend the church in Corinth for putting apostels and Christians above where they belong.

    1 Corinthians 1:10-17
    10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
    11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
    12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
    13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
    14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
    15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
    16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
    17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

    Your theology is so far from Biblical that we can sit here and drive a MAC truck through them (instead of poking holes) but it is going to take God almighty to show you the way the truth and the life in Jesus Christ of the Bible

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Continued revelation, period, could be the interpretation of "righteousness shall look down from heaven."

    Oh, also you said, "You state these events occurred after the Bible was finished. If the Bible was finished according to your words, what more can Joseph Smith add?" If that were true, what more could the Nicene Creed add to the Bible either? The Bible was already finished. Your own argument defeats you.

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Psalms 85:11 says "truth shall spring out of the earth" (Book of Mormon), and "righteousness shall look down from heaven" (the First Vision and the restoration of the priesthood by angels who descended).

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Joseph Smith can add whatever the Lord chooses to say. Joseph doesn't set those bounds. If God wants to speak, He will speak!

    If only Jesus can holds those keys, then why in the world did He ordain His apostles? What was He ordaining them to? Why didn't Christ do it all Himself? He was giving them the authority to preach and act in His name! How on earth could Paul heal a cripple without Christ's authority and power (Acts 14:8-10)? How could Paul cast an evil spirit out of a woman except by Christ's priesthood authority (Acts 16:16-18)? These are miracles that Christ did when He walked upon the earth. But He was not there anymore. He had given His apostles that authority to act in His name. It is by God's priesthood that these things are done.

    Christ is the Supreme Owner of the keys of the priesthood. He Has that authority from the Father. He gives man certain keys of that authority so that they might do His work on earth, including preaching, performing miracles, and officiating in His ordinances. That is the way it has been since Adam. Otherwise there would be no order in God's kingdom on the earth.

    I think I understand a little better what you are saying about deeds. We believe that all mankind, except the Sons of Perdition, will be saved in heaven. That is the power of Christ's atonement. But we believe that there are three degrees of glory within that heaven. We believe in order to obtain the highest degree of heaven, the celestial kingdom, one must also obey all the laws and ordinances of God's gospel, be faithful, and endure to the end.

    You haven't answered my question about Christ's baptism. If even Christ himself, being the most perfected and holy of all, even a God, had to be baptized to "fulfill all righteousness" then how can we ever think to skirt that required ordinance of the gospel? (Mark 16:16).

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hesadanza - Could you please explain Psalms 85 to me?

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "The Bible does not retell the event of Peter, James, and John, and John the Baptist restoring their priesthood authority because that event happened a good 1700 years after the Bible was finished being written. There are plenty of scriptures that prophesy of such a future event (Ps. 85:11), but the actual event is not described in detail because it occurred after the Bible. You can find an account of it in Joseph Smith-History 1:68-75."

    You state these events occurred after the Bible was finished. If the Bible was finished according to your words, what more can Joseph Smith add?

    "Joseph held the keys to the kingdom because Jesus Christ conferred them to him as His chosen prophet on the earth. Christ still is the ultimate authority of all the keys of the priesthood, and at the Second Coming those keys will be returned to Him who's authority it is, even Jesus Christ, who comes in glory to rule and reign on the earth."

    No. Only Jesus Christ holds the keys to heaven and hell. The only reason Christ came to earth was to get back the keys that we as humans GAVE to satan. It would be INSANE for Christ to send his Peter, James and John to give the keys of heaven and hell to Joseph Smith. That TOTALLY contradicts the reasons for Christ coming to earth. Why would Christ give the keys to heaven and hell to Joseph Smith - A man with SIN.

    Hesadanza that reasoning makes not an ounce of sense. Only Christ has the keys to heaven and hell and He will not reliquish those keys. Christ is the holder of the keys as He is the KEY. Not a prohet or any other man. I believe in Christ and the work he has done in me not any man and that includes my pastor, my wife, my dad, my kids or Joseph Smith.

    In regard to faith and deeds, I emphasized that deeds are not a part of getting into heaven. My point was your faith should produce deeds. As a fruit of your faith. A tree that does not bear fruit is pointless but not a condition of getting into heaven. Now we will be judged based upon our works aside from actually getting into heaven. What did you do with the gifts that God gave you. Have you used those gifts to expand the Kingdom here on earth or saved the gift in a hole in the ground not to be used. Again this has nothing to do with actual salvation.

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Joseph held the keys to the kingdom because Jesus Christ conferred them to him as His chosen prophet on the earth. Christ still is the ultimate authority of all the keys of the priesthood, and at the Second Coming those keys will be returned to Him who's authority it is, even Jesus Christ, who comes in glory to rule and reign on the earth.

    There is only one way to heaven, and that is in and through the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Lord Omnipotent.

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    HesadanzaFri Dec 07, 2007 11:16 am : 0 : 0 Flag
    Would you put yourself above Christ?

    NO!!! But that's exactly what your "savior" joseph smith did!!! when he said he holds the keys to the kingom!!! he is the way to Heaven

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Once again, I disagree. There is a whole lot we can do. God has given man commandments, and we must obey God. God's grace is only efficacious if we obey Him! Even Christ himself had to be baptized to "fulfill all righteousness". Would you put yourself above Christ?

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    According to this Christian, it IS God spoken.

    We are not saved by our own doing. The grace of God saves us, but only if we do our part too.

    I don't have to show it in the Bible. God has spoken again, and I will not shut Him up.

    You say yourself, "we must have both faith and deeds," and then you contradict yourself, "but the deeds have nothing to do with obtaining salvation." If we "must" do it, we "must" do it. There are no options where God's commandments are concerned.

    The Bible does not retell the event of Peter, James, and John, and John the Baptist restoring their priesthood authority because that event happened a good 1700 years after the Bible was finished being written. There are plenty of scriptures that prophesy of such a future event (Ps. 85:11), but the actual event is not described in detail because it occurred after the Bible. You can find an account of it in Joseph Smith-History 1:68-75.

    Yes. Peter, James and John came down to earth to confer the Melchizedek Priesthood on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Christ ordained them in His own time to His authority, and sent them to ordain Joseph to the same authority.

    The one thing that you don't seem to understand is that God confers the authority of His priesthood to man on earth so that they might be His servants and do His work. No one could have done the special work that Christ did in His infinite atonement and sacrifice. An infinite and eternal God had to make that infinite and eternal sacrifice.

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Yes, Nerohdam, there is much we can do to get into heaven. For starters, we can do what God has asked us to do. That includes His commandments. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." God also requires that we participate in ALL of the ordinances of His gospel, including baptism by immersion."

    No Hezadanza there is nothing WE can do to get into heaven. It is only what Christ DID that allows us to get into heaven. The only thing we can do is ALLOW Christ into our hearts and ask for forgiveness and we turn away from the things that cause us to sin. ONLY Christ can clear sin. Nothing we do can do the work of Christ. Also we are to keep the commandments but I am at the same time free of the commandments through Christ. The law condemns us. Also the baptism by immersion is immersion by the Holy Spirit. Immersion by water is a public sign but has nothing to do with obtaining salvation. As in it is not a step in the checklist to obtaining salvation. Only those immersed / baptized by the Holy Spirit which I believe happens instantly when one accepts the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hesadanza -

    Sorry Hesadanza my Bible does not have the following Books.

    According to Christians these are not God spoken -

    We are saved by grace, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). Plus to be honest this statement tells me we are saved by our own doing. Once again it is nothing that we do but only what Christ did.

    "There are no single angels there (D&C 132)." Again please show me this in the Spirit spoken Bible. I use the NIV version by the way along with the KJV.

    Also James admonishes that we do deeds to show honor to God for the gift of Christ and that which is in us compels us to do good deeds. We must have both faith and deeds but the deeds have nothing to do with obtaining salvation. The book of James was for those already saved by the way.

    Also please show me in the Bible where "Peter, James, and John, who were ordained by Christ, came down from heaven," I don't recall Peter, James and John coming down from heaven. Also John the Baptist was considered to be Elijah or at least carried on his work.

    So you are telling me that Peter, James and John came down to earth to confer Melchizedek Priesthood on o Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery? I am sorry but if Peter, James and John came down from heaven to do this then that nullifies the reason for Christ coming to earth and dying on the cross. Christ could have just stayed in heaven and sent Elijah aka John the Baptist to lay on hands and do the work of Christ. Obviously this is not the case as Christ came down during the same period as John the Baptist. Even John the Baptist with his own tongue professed he was nothing compared to Christ.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I think that God has made provisions for the kind of situation that you refer to Nerohdam. We do not claim to know everything about God, His judgment, and how the final accounting will be.

    This I do know with a certainty that I can't express in words. If my wife and I are faithful to the covenants we have made with God and to each other, we will be sealed together for eternity. And nothing is stronger than the sealing power of God's priesthood. For it is His authority, the power by which He works.

    This has all been made possible by the sacrifice, atonement, and resurrection of the Savior, Jesus Christ. Without Him, there would not be eternal families. There would be no sealing. He has made it possible.

    Yes, Nerohdam, I am making an "investment" in my family to get a "payoff" in heaven, for God has declared that only those who are sealed in the marriage relationship will be able to enter the celestial kingdom of God. There are no single angels there (D&C 132).

    Yes, Nerohdam, there is much we can do to get into heaven. For starters, we can do what God has asked us to do. That includes His commandments. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." God also requires that we participate in ALL of the ordinances of His gospel, including baptism by immersion. Those too are commanded by God. "We are saved by grace, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). We must ALL do these things, man and woman. We must follow the admonition of James: "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22). Yes, there is much we can do for the Lord, and much that He has asked us to do.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    God restored His authority. Peter, James, and John, who were ordained by Christ, came down from heaven, and by the laying on of hands, conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. John the Baptist also came down from heaven, and by the laying on of hands, conferred the Aaronic Priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Later others returned including Elijah (which was prophesied in Malachi), Elias, and Moses, to restore the keys of God's authority which they possessed in their own day. Thus, God restored the authority of His priesthood back to the earth.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:12 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Hesadanza-
    "If I am not with my wife, and my wife with me, when we are with the Lord, there is no point in family life at all. Why get married? Why have kids? Why spend my entire life nurturing the love I have for my wife and family, if death would destroy it all. No. Christ provided for better!"

    Yes Christ did provide for better. But I do not believe that the both of you will go to heaven if only 1 of you is saved. God wants more than you nurturing the love for your wife. He wants YOU. As much as he wants HER. It has nothing to do with what we do but what Christ does. Unfortunately, it makes it sound like you are making an investment in your family for a payoff to get into heaven. No my friend there is nothing that WE ourselves can do to get into heaven. The only way for your wife and kids to get into heaven is if THEY repent of their sins and accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Nothing I can do or you can do will ever change that...

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:39 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Hesadanza says: "The authority of God's priesthood has always, and will always, be conferred by the laying on of hands from one who has authority."

    On what basis does Smith and LDS assume God's authority?

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Here is Romney's speech, if you would like to read it:
    http://www.mittromney.com/News/Speeches/Faith_In_America

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Here is a good story:
    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/orl-newvoices0507dec05,0,804997.story

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    If I am not with my wife, and my wife with me, when we are with the Lord, there is no point in family life at all. Why get married? Why have kids? Why spend my entire life nurturing the love I have for my wife and family, if death would destroy it all. No. Christ provided for better!

    Christ was baptized of John the Baptist. Do you deny the efficacy of his baptism by water? If not, then John the Baptist must have had the authority, by God, to baptize. Even John clearly recognized he was much less than Jesus, but Christ asked him to baptize him nonetheless, because Christ recognized one who possessed authority to administer in that ordinance of the gospel. Christ could not baptize himself.

    The authority of God's priesthood has always, and will always, be conferred by the laying on of hands from one who has authority.

    Christ is the Supreme and Ultimate Final Judge, but there are others who will participate in the judgment process.

    Several ancient prophets practiced polygamy, as it is written directly in the Holy Bible, so that argument is null. God will command what is true and correct according to His will. Polygamy is an egregious sin, and anyone participating in it will be excommunicated.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo

    Ed Decker, a former Mormon made a video a few years back called "The God Makers". The above link is to a portion of that video.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hezadanza - I am not posting this to antagonize you. Far from it. The point is to learn from each other and for both of us to make decisions based upon the evidence available. The choice as to what we do with the evidence is obviously up to each of us.

    May the Good Lord Bless you today and provide wisdom to those who ask and seek. Amen

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:04 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Umm..Corinthians 11:11 has nothing to do with a wife being your wife in heaven. Again what do you have to say if one's wife is not saved? Does she go to heaven even if you are saved? How can a sinner go to heaven? That would ruin the point of heaven where all things are without sin.

    Umm... John the Baptist baptized with water, Christ baptized with the Holy Spirit . Again, vastly different. Again, Christ is greater than John the Baptist but your message would seem to resonate that John the Baptist is greater. Do you deny this?

    The gift of the Holy Spirit is conferred by accepting Jesus Christ. There is nothing magical about laying on hands. It is only through Christ. Do you deny this?

    Christ gave many to be judges in Isreal yes, but that was before Christ came to earth. Christ is THE Judge. Do you deny this?

    Also the holy Spirit of promise if you do more research is also translated as the promised Holy Spirit that will be sent based upon acceptance of Christ.

    Another question I have is what is your opinion on polygomy? Did all the wives of the early founders of Mormonism go to heaven? You may state that mormons do not practice polygomy anymore but that was a practice in the "early church" and so a tree can only bear the same type of fruit.

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hesadanza,

    ephesians 1:13 means the Holy Spirit that was promised. Jesus promised that a comforter would be sent.

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