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Ministries|Fri, Dec. 07 2007 10:34 AM EST

Two of Six Preachers Turn Over Financial Data for Probe

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Only two faith-based ministries have met a Thursday deadline to turn over financial documents for a Senate investigation on alleged opulent spending. Six were asked to cooperate.

  • Joyce Meyer
    (Photo: Joyce Meyer Ministries / File)
    In this undated file photo, New York Times bestselling author and preacher Joyce Meyer speaks during one of her Women's Conferences.

Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) received the requested papers from Kenneth Copeland Ministries on Thursday and Joyce Meyer Ministries earlier this week.

"It’s good that some of the ministries are cooperating. I hope all of them will cooperate in the end," said Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Senate Committee on Finance, in a statement. "For the focus of this inquiry, ministries are the same as any other non-profit organization. It’s a question of abiding by tax laws just like any tax-exempt group."

A month ago, Grassley sent letters to six high-profile ministries – led by Paula and Randy White, Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long, Benny Hinn, Meyer and Copeland – requesting financial statements and responses to pointed questions about salaries, perks and other organizational and personal finances. The Senate probe was launched to determine whether the ministries are abusing their tax-exempt status as churches for extravagant lifestyles.

Churches, unlike secular nonprofits, are not required by law to make their finances public. And while some of the ministries under investigation stated they comply with tax laws, churches report very little information to the IRS and very little transparency is legally required of them, according to Richard Hammar, editor of Church Treasurer Alert! and Church Law and Tax Report.

One of the requirements to be tax-exempt, however, is that the organization does not pay unreasonable compensation. And that is a main concern of the Senate investigation.

Recent media coverage and reports by watchdog groups have alleged the six ministry leaders of generous salaries and amenities such as private jets and Rolls-Royces. Grassley told reporters in a conference call Wednesday that he "can't be impressed" by the argument from some of the preachers that the Internal Revenue Service already monitors them, because his past inquiries have unearthed information that the IRS never knew, according to The Associated Press.

Creflo Dollar, one of the preachers under investigation, sent Grassley a letter asking that the investigation either be referred to the IRS, which would give greater privacy, or that the Senate committee get a subpoena.

Dollar's lawyer, Marcus Owens of Washington, explained that turning over information through a subpoena would keep the church's information from being released to the public and "guarantees you privacy," as reported by The Wall Street Journal.

Early in the investigation, Dollar had released some information about the finances for his church – World Changers Church International in College Park, Ga. – showing that the 30,000-member church took in $69 million in 2006.

"I generally don't make this public," he said at the time.

Dollar along with several other pastors have raised concerns about invasions of privacy and violations of religious freedom regarding the Senate probe.

Dismissing the religious liberty argument, Grassley said, "Forget it. They don't have a leg to stand on."

Representatives of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Lithonia, Ga., said publicly that the ministry will cooperate with the Senate request but Grassley has not yet received any material or contact from the ministry. Bishop Eddie Long, who leads the Baptist church, has called Grassley's request unjust.

Texas-based faith “healer” Benny Hinn has asked for more time to respond. A meeting with Hinn's attorneys is set for Friday, Grassley's office said.

Lawyers for Paula and Randy White of Tampa gave initial contact to Grassley's office Thursday but no further response has been given.

Grassley said he's willing to give the ministries more time to respond "as long as they’re cooperating and in contact with my office."

"It’d be very unusual if they don’t cooperate," he added. "I’ve looked at a lot of non-profit groups over the last five years, and they’ve all cooperated. The only possible exception is when I was chairman, and then-Ranking Member Baucus asked for my help in getting a subpoena for charities connected to Jack Abramoff. That was an extreme case.”

"I expect that in the end we won't have to work hard to get all these folks to cooperate, and I'd be very disappointed if I did," the Iowa senator said.

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  • Sat May 17, 2008 10:13 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Copeland brags about being a billionaire to his congregation. I wonder who he's serving?

    http://www.grassleyinvestigation.com

  • Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Victims have the right to ask!
    Exactly who does have a right to question Copeland about where the money goes? Copeland put on a exhalent performance at his latest ministers conference, visible at http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/copelandclips , in which has now gotten the attention of people all across the USA, and abroad. If I didn’t personally know better, one would actually think he cares about the protection of all his followers (partners),that pour money into his ministry. Requesting a summery of my mothers (Bonnie Parker) contributions, a long time partner of KCM, we like Grassley got little or no response. (Request viewable at http://sis359.blogspot.com/ ). If their partners aren’t entitled to this privileged information, even though they are funding this lavish lifestyle KCM has grown very accustom to, nor is the Senate entitled either, then who is? The IRS perhaps? Are the teachings of the Prosperity Gospel message being misconstrued? Do we, any of us, have a valid argument, or the right to ask for these records ? I believe with all my heart, we should let the ones affected most by this money making scam have a say in determining the answer to those questions..
    “ I had a home“, “I had a life“, “I had faith“, “I had a family“, “I lost a loved one“, “I have no clue what the truth is anymore!” “I will never trust any form of religion.” these are merely a handful of endless testimonies coming to light nationwide. Ranging from all walks of life, their heartbreaking testimonies can be found throughout the web, yet inconceivably, victims are being labeled as fools, ignorant, and basically downright blind for not seeing the truth behind the Prosperity Gospels falsehoods. ” Being only human, our quest for health and wealth, regrettably does lead some in the wrong direction. Promises and guaranties, made by the Prosperity Gospel ministers, give people that have not obtained these blessings on their own, a second chance at achieving their goals in life. An important discovery I made while reviewing testimonies, revealed the fact numerous victims had very little knowledge of the Prosperity Gospels dark side. These unfortunate victims, appear to be equipped with only a small portion of the web of deceit these ministers weave. Knowledge, is the only discovery I found to be effective in this seemingly endless battle. Sadly for some our efforts will go unheard. God be with them.

    The family of Bonnie Parker
    sis359@gmail.com

    Photo, before and after KCM,
    http://picasaweb.google.com/sis359/BonnieParkerDiaryPhoto
    Documentary Suffer The Children, exposes televangelists lavish lifestyles ,
    http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/suffer-children
    Book recently published by Sara Posner, also looks into these subjects,
    http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Profits-Republican-Crusade-Values/dp/0979482216

  • RBB »
    Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I know what you're going through. I've found it necessary to leave a church I had been attending for a long time. It's very tough, especially this time of year. But sometimes God just says it's time to go, and you have to follow. If you would like I'll keep you in prayer about it.

    Have you started looking for another church? I know some folks can see the split coming and do some visiting ahead of time, and some just wait until they leave.

  • Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    My childhood through late teen years were in the PHC. My early married life was in Baptist. Middle marriage years in AOG and the past 8 or so back in the PHC which is the one I grew up in. I sent a letter this past week explaining why I could no longer attend there using scripture to show where God is leading me. I pointed out no doctrinal error that I believe they live under. For months I have prayed for God to show me if he wanted to use me to bring some things up to them. He did not but opened the door for my exit.

  • RBB »
    Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I was taught from childhood not to take things in the Bible for granted, but to check everything against what the Bible itself says. On several occasions I've trooped into my pastor's office and disagreed with him. But then I'm a natural troublemaker :)

    The church you describe is the one that I feel I belong to. Not the physical one, but the one in my heart. I go to two different churches every week, for services and for Bible classes, one non-denominational and one Baptist. I will attend a Bible class or service at any church that teaches the Word of God, and not the traditions of men, or that purposely disobeys the word of God. I consider myself a Biblical Christian and not a member of a denomination. I think that for now it's the best we can get.

  • Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    This is why I believe those in denominations may be at risk. Matthew 15:1-20
    Matthew 15:1-20
    “Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
    ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
    And honor Me with their lips,
    But their heart is far from Me.
    And in vain they worship Me,
    Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
    When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.” Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.” Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.” So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

  • Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:09 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Paul commended those at Berea for searching scripture behind his teachings to confirm he was teaching truth. We believers, I would venture to say, have never done this. I know I had not until recently.

  • Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:03 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    One church with Yeshua as its head with no denominational inspired doctrine, but who strive to work out the truth in scripture through prayer and study of Gods Word is what I'd like to see, but as you say it will never happen.

    I am not nor will I ever say if a person belongs to a denomination they are on the wide path to desctuction. I do believe however they may be at greater risk due to, for the most part, implicit trust in their pastors who are taught scripture skewed towards denominational doctrine.

    Imagine there were a church in which the pastor taught on a subject, those in the congregation went home reread and searched scripture and found that pastor in error and broght this to his attention. The pastor listened to them, researched scripture and confirmed his own error and corrected his teaching. This is that which edifies the body and all grow in the knowledge of Yeshua.

  • RBB »
    Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:51 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I'm sorry, I'm not getting what you want, instead of the way things are. To be all one denomination? That would be great, but until the Lord's return I don't see it happening.

    Or are you saying that if one belongs to a denomination then they are on the wide path to destruction.

    As I said I'm just not getting exactly what you're advocating.

  • RBB »
    Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    What you are describing is making another denomination that would have as it's main tenet not having denominations.

  • Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:27 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I do not believe God puts up with our failures. Our failures come from attempting to “do” for God with selfish desires. Failures come through the accumulative actions of man to become self important. Denominations were birthed out of man’s selfish desires in an attempt to lay hold of and manipulate God’s Word and creation. This birthing has nothing to do with man actually, except for being a willing operative for the one who from the beginning of time has sought to corrupt Gods plans and creations, Lucifer. The corruption continues as modern man believes the lie as did Adam and Eve who sought to be wise in their own eyes. This is where denominations came from and why I believe God abhors them. But one says, “What of all the good churches do?” I can not speak for God but I read scripture that says, “Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.” Lk 13:23,24 In verse 27 … “I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.” Also in Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.” My point? There is nothing in scripture promoting denominations. There is nothing in scripture stating God accepts and over looks our failures to hijack his will and plans by conforming them to suit us because we, who are liars, believe he meant this or that. God forgives our sins but I dare say there are no “denominations” willing to admit there sins, denounce denominational affiliation and seek Gods will for his way for what church is to be. Even the “Non-denominational” churches hold to many practices found in denominational churches. Could there be “many” in churches today who are turned away due to following blind man inspired wisdom? I can only say it is possible. I believe God does find true hearts within churches who seek him. I pray for believers to awaken and desire to know our God and follow him and not man, but the end of the age will work out according to his plan as he wills it.

  • RBB »
    Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "No one can come unless they are called."

    Amen!

    We are called however to witness and to bring people to Christ. I believe we are to do it as if it did matter, and let God bring who He will to Himself.

  • RBB »
    Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:37 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Oglefam - What it seems to be saying is that denominations exist, but that as long as we accept the fundamentals of the faith that they shouldn't matter. They aren't advocating them, simply stating why they exist and the last paragraph makes the point that it isn't good:

    "Sadly, there is another reason for denominational differences and that is the failure of Christians to live according to the will of God. The truth is that we are all sinners and we do not see things eye to eye. It is an unfortunate truth that denominational differences are due to our shortsightedness and lack of love. But, the good thing is that God loves us so much that He puts up with our failures. There waits for us, in spite of our differences, a great reward in heaven. Neither salvation nor damnation is dependent upon our differences".

    Denominations are a fact in Christianity, a sad fact, but still a fact. People will always feel the need to find fault and be judgmental over things they don't agree on, it's part of our fallen human nature unfortunately. All we can do is to try to ignore those divisions ourselves and try not to live in condemnation and division ourselves.

  • Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    In addition and not only distinct to that website but too many claiming to preach the gospel, the repentance of a "sinner" through the calling of the Holy Spirit is the beginning of redemption. Calling sinners "seekers" implies, at least to me, the seeker is the one doing the work when it is the Holy Spirit who draws all men. No one can come unless they are called.

  • Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    On their home page, left side, click on "Answers for Seekers", First topic under "Questions" titled "What about different denominations?"

  • RBB »
    Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Oglefam - Could you tell me how to get to the place on CARM you're commenting on. Just to make sure we're on the same page.

  • Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:22 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    RBB, what I mean is this, there is no scriptual basis supporting the statement CARM states whereby Christian denominations are allowed, due to difference of opinion concerning different understandings of non-doctine scripture. In other words; Baptist, AOG, Methodist and other Christian denominations are not scriptual. There is no scripture giving acceptance for this but there is scripture stating this is not to happen. All are man derived for man's purpose and divide the body of Christ which is not to be. The deeper point I would like to make is this, you stated to someone of their continual pushing of certain websites and recommended one of your own. That is fine. What believers have to understand is that anything derived from man is a lie. I know there are some pastors who actually want those in their care to actually study God's Word. The main problem with believers today is placing implicit trust in the one tending the sheep instead of the study of God's Word for its truth, not man's version of it. Being a believer is a personal thing and there are too many who rely on others knowledge of God's Word which is so important to and for us individually. Someone else's knowledge of God's Word will not benefit you or I when the storms come. Personal knowledge from personal study and personal time with our Lord is where our strength comes from. Anyone who rests in the words of man is potentially doomed to fall. God's man will point souls to Yeshua and no where else.

  • RBB »
    Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Oglefam - Are you saying that you don't like that CARM makes the judgment that certain groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons aren't really Christians? If that isn't what you're saying, could you please explain a little more what you do mean.

  • Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I did also look at the CARM website you suggested RBB and disagree with their stance on denominations. Scripture does not allow for denominations because of differences of opinion as long as major doctrinal issues are the same. 1 Corinthians 1: 13 has a question that settles the denomination question: "Is Christ divided?"...answer, not supposed to be, yet we do.

  • Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:14 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Churches today have tax exempt status from our government. They keep records of each “gift” and give the giver a receipt which allows for the reduction of that persons taxable income to the IRS. This to me negates any promise of blessing or prosperity from a financial perspective as the reward of giving has been gained through reduced taxes to Czar. Side note, Yeshua had no problem paying taxes, and the church is better than Christ?
    AOG and Baptist each give housing allowances to their pastors. Having served as a deacon in an AOG church and having a brother who was a Baptist minister I have knowledge of how the system works. In my role as a deacon there were a few times we had to discuss and vote on pastor compensation. The pastor gave me some ideas of how it worked before hand. Instead of increasing his compensation say by $100 per week, he suggested that his housing allowance, which was $250 a month be raised to $450 and his compensation to $50 a week. Here was the catch, pastors only had to claim their compensation as income to the IRS, housing allowances were not taxable. Add to this travel expenses, also not taxable, and he received a nice compensation with a minimal tax liability impact. I remember my brother telling me something similar in the Baptist organization. This is most likely what the “mega ministries” do which lavishes “gifts” from their congregations with no taxable damage to the “mega minister.” Try this, attempt to find out what any “mega minister” claims as personal income then see how they live that falls under the category of “housing allowance” or some other misleading heading. This is deception in the church aided by our federal government.

  • Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    There are to me some things to take into consideration as well, if you are attending a fellowship that feeds you spiritually you are to support it. If that fellowship is taking care of the saints, feeding the poor and needy or taking care of the sick, the body is to support it.
    I believe churches should at least a couple times a year present to the fellowship, records explaining how monies are dispersed. This is not Biblical but may allow fellowship members encouragement from knowing God is blessing others through them. In fact it may be Biblical. Those in Macedonia, who were poor and struggling, but had such a desire to help another struggling church they were determined to give and in a sense would not take no for an answer. They gave.

  • Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:13 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    2 Peter 2:19 states that we can be brought into the bondage as are false teachers through their alluring words of lust. Example: There have been many sermons from pulpits concerning Malachi 3 in which blessings are promised through testing God by faithful tithing, also of God cursing those who do not. This is a guilt inducing formula to collect money. Being in error this binds those listening into bondage due to implicit trust being placed in the one teaching. Many false prophets and pastor-teachers are bound in this and therefore place into bondage those under their care. This is wide spread.
    Now let me offer a view of God’s prosperity and blessings as scripturally based to the best of my understanding as led by the Holy Spirit. I believe in God’s prosperity as taught in 2 Corinthians 9. I believe the prerequisite for this type of prosperity is found in Matthew 6:33 by seeking God’s Kingdom first, which dictates one has to be a believer. Matthew 6:33 could also simply refer to God supplying our “needs” i.e. what we will eat, drink or wear. I also believe this giving is in accordance with the preceding chapter stating: a willing mind, according to what one has, NOT according to what one does NOT have, equally as to not burden certain ones. In other words, when God blesses with excess the one being blessed gives in excess from a willing heart. There is an offer of abundant reaping(receiving) due to abundant sowing(giving). Give a little and receive a little. Give in abundance and receive in abundance. This is to be tempered as scripture teaches in 2 Corinthians 8: according to means. In other words: if the funds to satisfy your bills is $100 and you have $120 you are to decide in your heart what you will give with gladness from the $20. Sacrifice comes when you willingly decide to give $5 but notice another believer who has lack and is in need and give to them out of Christian love. On the other hand God has not placed anyone in need into your heart so instead you decide with a willing and cheerful heart to give(sow) $20 instead of $5.

  • NOTW »
    Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:38 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    His watchmen are blind, they are all ignorant; they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. Yes, they are greedy dogs which never have enough. And they are shepherds who cannot understand; they all look to their own way, every one for his own gain...Tomorrow will be as today, and much more abundant. Isaiah 56:10-12

  • NOTW »
    Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:31 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord... 1Corinthians 4:2-5

  • NOTW »
    Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:58 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Proof! How much more do you need! You refuse to hear this--word-of-faith teachings are heretical! This has nothing to do with their wicked financial fleecing of the blind flock! They teach another gospel--which is not the Gospel--and they mock Christ and the one living God. It is heresy to claim the attonement was not finished upon the cross when Christ shed His blood for sinful man. It is against Scripture. Those that do so have an agenda--they have God's nature changing in hell, which leads to Christ becoming merely man in need of spiritual rebirth, which leads them to the deification of man. This is blasphemy! Heresy! And Meyers is of this camp. I have stated my doctrinal position. Why can you not state yours? And why can you not answer to shaming me? Could it be that just like Meyers, you would now prefer to keep it hidden due to rebuke?

  • RBB »
    Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:33 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    NOTW - I directed you to where I asked you a question. Which I have no doubt that you found, and still evidently refuse to answer.

    I have in no way berated others, simply asked repeatedly for the proof behind all the wild claims being made.

    I again do not appreciate your accusations, or tone. Unless that changes I have no more to say to you.

  • NOTW »
    Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:09 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    You shame the counsel of the poor, But the Lord is his refuge. Psalm 14:6. RBB, you shamed me, then quote Scripture against doing so. Well, who are you to judge another man's servant? I am justified before God, and have no need to justify myself, nor will I speak to please sinful man, but only the Lord my God who has delivered me from the prison of wickedness; I am His and must walk in His ways. If I have been harsh and offensive, and injurous to your delicate sensibilities, please understand that it is from a heart filled with disgust at that which the Lord has called abomination. The truth must be spoken against those who mock the true Gospel, the true Christ, and the one living God. And the doctrines of the word-of-faith cult do these things. You consistently come against those who would discern the truth as ALL Christians are commanded to do, yet I have seen little discussion of DOCTRINE. Do not be blinded by what this cult does with money. The enemy is laughing at you.

  • NOTW »
    Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:23 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    RBB--sorry, but I could not find anywhere your statements of Ms. Meyer's doctrinal stance. Are you truly aware of the doctrines in the word-of-faith cult? You consistently berate others for judging without knowledge, but where is yours? Please understand that I do know their doctrines, and how Meyers has toned down after many rebukes, but has never repented. This is first-hand knowledge. I state again that this financial examination is not what prompts my disgust with these ministries. Their works with unrighteous mammon mean nothing in light of the abominations in their doctrines.

  • RBB »
    Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:27 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    jc4me - Of course I forgive you, as our dear Lord Jesus has told us to. In the future you may want to keep in mind that when you use only part of a quote, that the rest is also implied. I still hope that God will open your eyes, and I wish you well.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:12 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    I'm sorry if you thought i said swine. I never said the word swine and I was refering to not thorwing something valuable here anymore if people are going to dismiss the true quotes of false teachers. If I offended you I a trully sorry, and i beg your forgiveness for that comment. maybe it was too harsh. Please forgive me. I am done trying to convince you with quotes from the mouths of these heretics. I can just pray that God would sharpen my words to continue telling the truth in love. Again, I'm sorry if you thought I was calling you a swine. I know the scripture you were refering to, but I was trying to just make a point about the pearl thing; not the swine thing. please forgive me. I just hope the Lord opens your eyes to the false teachings of Copeland, Myers and the like. Good night, and I hope you forgive me for any misunderstanding. I was not trying to disrespect you; honestly.

  • RBB »
    Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:09 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    NOTW - If you look at page three of the complete post list, you will see my responses to your last questions and statements. If you want to continue this discussion you can start with that. I'll state right here, I have no intention of continuing a discussion if you or anyone else gets insulting.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    RBB, i did not mention the word swine anywhere in my quote. I said i would not throw my pearls out anymore. I never used the word swine. please go back carefully and read my reply.

  • RBB »
    Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:01 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    jc4me - I do not appreciate being called swine, and please don't claim that you didn't, I (and everyone who knows their Bible) knows the quote. No, you are most definitely not the Holy Spirit and I do seek Him daily. I do not know if you intend to insult when you tell your Christian brothers and sister to do things like that but it is most insulting. I too am done. I pray God will open your eyes to the truth of the Bible.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:58 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    NOTW: I was trying to post under my precious user name jc4me for a few more false doctrines quoted fro Joyce Myers, and the CP warned me about the material being offensive, etc. I guess it may have been because some of her quotes contained the word "hell", but I really don't know the reason behind it. I will now be posting under my new user name jesus4me. When you see this, it is me jc4me, but just a little different.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:56 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    yeah and Graceman, why haven't you been able to find scripture and verse to show proof where Kenneth Copeland's teachings aren't erroneous; particularly these quotes:

    "Copeland speaking of Adam "his body and Adams were the exactly the same size." (Holy bible K. Copeland Reference Edition p.45)
    K. Copeland speaking of God " A being that stands somewhere around 6-2 , 6-3 that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds or a little better, has a span of 9 inches across (relating to his own hand span) (Spirit, soul and a Body 1985 audio # 01-0601 side 1Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body 1, 1985. )


    When you find Bible book, Scripture and Verse(s) where the Bible actually says God was like Adam, and that he is 6"2" in height and that He (God) has a hand span of 9 inches across, then you please make sure you post it, so we can go to the Bible and verify this. Also, Benny Hinn said something similar concerning Adam being able to fly, and all, but he couldn't back that up biblically either could he?

  • NOTW »
    Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:45 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Thank you jc4me. You have great patience. May the Lord contiue to bless you with true discernment and peace.

  • NOTW »
    Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    graceman--are you a god? Do you believe in polytheim?

  • NOTW »
    Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    RBB--please state which doctrinal positions of Joyce Meyer you agree with.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    If those quotes aren't good enough for you, then RBB, I'm done throwing my pearls here. I'm not the Holy Spirit, so maybe you should seek Him and ask Him to reveal to you what may be wrong with Seed Faith/Word Faith/Prosperity Doctrine/Name it and Claim it. Maybe you should also check out the quote I listed from Kenneth Copeland who you cannot deny has influenced Joyce Myers teachings. I'm done trying to prove something to you that you refuse to see. I'm done. I wish you well, and may the Lord show you this error of prosperity teaching. I know you have a wonderful heart, and your purpose is to get to the truth, but you are missing the point in what I say. I'm done.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:35 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I tried again, and the Christian post gave me another warning. Sorry, I won't be able to quote anymore Joyce Myers quotes for you, but the ones I quoted for you should be enough.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:32 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    sorry RBB, it appears that the Joyce Myers quotes I was quoting to you under jc4me were not very friendly to the site, and they basically barred me off the site under that user name. I will try again under this new user and hopefully it will accept the quotes. The only word I can think of as being ofrensive language in the quote is "hell", but it has never booted me out before, so here we go again.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:11 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    RBB, here are the Joyce Myers quotes you asked for.

    1) “Several years ago I found myself completely worn out from trying to fight the devil. I learned many ‘methods’ of spiritual warfare; however, they did not seem to be working ... I had fallen into the trap that many Christians fall into. I had the right teaching, but the wrong order ... I was feverishly applying methods I had learned — like fasting and prayer ... rebuking and resisting evil spirits ... empty formulas which wear us out and produce no results except maybe a sore throat” (The Word, The Name, The Blood, pp. 28, 32, 33).


    2) Her now-unavailable tape, “What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” continued to teach the “Born-Again Jesus” doctrine; she also subsequently says that she is not a sinner:

    “I’m going to tell you something folks, I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I’m righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time ... All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?”

    This is what the Bible says; not what Joyce Myers says:

    The Apostle John says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8). It is Christ’s righteousness imparted to us, not ours, that makes us righteous.

  • RBB »
    Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jc4me - I can't understand why, if you knew that was what I was refering to, you would waste my time reading through your posts while you went on about the born again comment, acting like that was what was bothering you.

    Since you say you are very familiar with Joyce and her teaching, please direct me to her book, tape, or quote (from her, not one of your websites) that connects the born again comment with the Word Faith movement.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    RBB wrote:

    "jc4me -
    I was responding to Jesus being " in Hell". I think you'll find that the "born again man" is more of a metaphor. Just as the word Trinity isn't in the Bible, and there is nowhere in the Bible that says when you die you "go to heaven". You do believe in the Trinity, and going to Heaven even though it's not "scriptural" right?"

    Yes, I know you were referring to Jesus decscending into "hell" or "hades" or into the "grave", but in needed to show you why I disagree with her fundamental doctrines. And yes I do believe in the Trinity, and I firmly believe it is Scriptural. And no, when Joyce Myers uses the prase "the first born again man" refering to Jesus, I don't believe it is a metaphor. I believe it is tied in with the erroneous teachings of the Word Faith Movement.

  • RBB »
    Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jc4me -
    I was responding to Jesus being " in Hell". I think you'll find that the "born again man" is more of a metaphor. Just as the word Trinity isn't in the Bible, and there is nowhere in the Bible that says when you die you "go to heaven". You do believe in the Trinity, and going to Heaven even though it's not "scriptural" right?

  • RBB »
    Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jc4me-
    Question 1) The reason I've "assumed" that you've never heard Joyce Meyer is that every time I've asked you for first hand examples of things she has said that prove your accusations, you have quoted copiously from your "websites" and on occasion in the last three articles we've been discussing this on, have made statements to that effect. If you have, wonderful. Now you can give first hand examples of things she is supposed to have said, that prove any points you make about her.

    You say yes.... it's OK to just find someone guilty on the assumption of hearing someone like what you think they are. That it's OK to lump anyone you even think is teaching prosperity together and condemn them. Please give proof in the Bible that this is the right thing to do.

    2) Perhaps you miss understood the question... Would you want a false accusation used to judge you? An example would be..when you belonged to that old church suppose someone had seen you there. They met you know and even though you no longer believe what that group does, this person accuses you of it and refuses to be talked out of it. Would that type of judgment be OK with you.

    3) Those judging Christians don't make the kinds of distinctions you make. They don't care what Jesus actually said, or what being a "real" Christian is. They just have an idea in their head as to what a Christian is, and they don't hear any more. The question was not about other Christians judging the body, it was about non-Christians judging Christians unjustly.

    4) The homes you mention and the "commode", which is still not proven by the way as far as I know, are also for the ministry. So I guess it's more than 82%. Unless you or anyone else give over 80 percent of their income in the Lord's work, I don't think they have the right to say anything.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Numbers 23:19 (New King James Version)
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.



    19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
    Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
    Has He said, and will He not do?
    Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:53 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Gracemand: Could it be that Mr. Kenneth Copeland had some "special revelation" apart from the Scriptures? Maybe you can answer that as well.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:51 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Graceman worte:

    "jc4me , Perhaps Copeland bases his teaching on Romans 8:29, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers,” NIV. He has a different interpretation of scripture than you. Big deal! It is not the end of the Christian faith. Copeland shares what ancient Jewish scholars think about the creation of man. I do not find a problem with that.

    Of course I understand that your views are set in stone. You will not accept the scriptures I show you or my testimony about how God is prospering me. But just because you do not believe it does mean it is not true. Fortunately in the Christian faith we have freedom. "

    Graceman, what does Romans 8:29 have to do with Adam being like God, or that God is a man with certain height with a certain hand span size, when the Word says that God can measure the Universe with the span of His hand? Perhaps you can answer this for Mr. Copeland as well? Please read the whole counsel of God, not just what you believe to be an interpretation by a so called teacher of the Word; which is subsequently a false one.

    here is Copelands quote(s) again so yo can address that specifically in your answer and tell me if anywhere in the Word you can find what he is teaching?:

    "Copeland speaking of Adam "his body and Adams were the exactly the same size." (Holy bible K. Copeland Reference Edition p.45)
    K. Copeland speaking of God " A being that stands somewhere around 6-2 , 6-3 that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds or a little better, has a span of 9 inches across (relating to his own hand span) (Spirit, soul and a Body 1985 audio # 01-0601 side 1Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body 1, 1985. )

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:43 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    RBB:

    No where i the Scriptures you mention does the Bible indicate that Christ was the first born again man. If you or Joyce Myers, or anyone else can prove to me Scripturally that Christ was the first born again man, then please do so. I checked out the Apostles Creed, and it does not mention this "born again Jesus". I agree with Christ decending and ministering to the spirits held captive in prison since the days of Noah, because that is biblical.

    Here is that Scripture to prove my point:

    1 Peter 3:18-20 (New King James Version)
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.



    Christ’s Suffering and Ours

    18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[a] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[b] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

    Footnotes:

    1 Peter 3:18 NU-Text and M-Text read you.
    1 Peter 3:20 NU-Text and M-Text read when the longsuffering of God waited patiently.

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