Only two faith-based ministries have met a Thursday deadline to turn over financial documents for a Senate investigation on alleged opulent spending. Six were asked to cooperate.
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(Photo: Joyce Meyer Ministries / File)In this undated file photo, New York Times bestselling author and preacher Joyce Meyer speaks during one of her Women's Conferences.
Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) received the requested papers from Kenneth Copeland Ministries on Thursday and Joyce Meyer Ministries earlier this week.
"It’s good that some of the ministries are cooperating. I hope all of them will cooperate in the end," said Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Senate Committee on Finance, in a statement. "For the focus of this inquiry, ministries are the same as any other non-profit organization. It’s a question of abiding by tax laws just like any tax-exempt group."
A month ago, Grassley sent letters to six high-profile ministries – led by Paula and Randy White, Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long, Benny Hinn, Meyer and Copeland – requesting financial statements and responses to pointed questions about salaries, perks and other organizational and personal finances. The Senate probe was launched to determine whether the ministries are abusing their tax-exempt status as churches for extravagant lifestyles.
Churches, unlike secular nonprofits, are not required by law to make their finances public. And while some of the ministries under investigation stated they comply with tax laws, churches report very little information to the IRS and very little transparency is legally required of them, according to Richard Hammar, editor of Church Treasurer Alert! and Church Law and Tax Report.
One of the requirements to be tax-exempt, however, is that the organization does not pay unreasonable compensation. And that is a main concern of the Senate investigation.
Recent media coverage and reports by watchdog groups have alleged the six ministry leaders of generous salaries and amenities such as private jets and Rolls-Royces. Grassley told reporters in a conference call Wednesday that he "can't be impressed" by the argument from some of the preachers that the Internal Revenue Service already monitors them, because his past inquiries have unearthed information that the IRS never knew, according to The Associated Press.
Creflo Dollar, one of the preachers under investigation, sent Grassley a letter asking that the investigation either be referred to the IRS, which would give greater privacy, or that the Senate committee get a subpoena.
Dollar's lawyer, Marcus Owens of Washington, explained that turning over information through a subpoena would keep the church's information from being released to the public and "guarantees you privacy," as reported by The Wall Street Journal.
Early in the investigation, Dollar had released some information about the finances for his church – World Changers Church International in College Park, Ga. – showing that the 30,000-member church took in $69 million in 2006.
"I generally don't make this public," he said at the time.
Dollar along with several other pastors have raised concerns about invasions of privacy and violations of religious freedom regarding the Senate probe.
Dismissing the religious liberty argument, Grassley said, "Forget it. They don't have a leg to stand on."
Representatives of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Lithonia, Ga., said publicly that the ministry will cooperate with the Senate request but Grassley has not yet received any material or contact from the ministry. Bishop Eddie Long, who leads the Baptist church, has called Grassley's request unjust.
Texas-based faith “healer” Benny Hinn has asked for more time to respond. A meeting with Hinn's attorneys is set for Friday, Grassley's office said.
Lawyers for Paula and Randy White of Tampa gave initial contact to Grassley's office Thursday but no further response has been given.
Grassley said he's willing to give the ministries more time to respond "as long as they’re cooperating and in contact with my office."
"It’d be very unusual if they don’t cooperate," he added. "I’ve looked at a lot of non-profit groups over the last five years, and they’ve all cooperated. The only possible exception is when I was chairman, and then-Ranking Member Baucus asked for my help in getting a subpoena for charities connected to Jack Abramoff. That was an extreme case.”
"I expect that in the end we won't have to work hard to get all these folks to cooperate, and I'd be very disappointed if I did," the Iowa senator said.
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Copeland brags about being a billionaire to his congregation. I wonder who he's serving?
http://www.grassleyinvestigation.com
Victims have the right to ask!
Exactly who does have a right to question Copeland about where the money goes? Copeland put on a exhalent performance at his latest ministers conference, visible at http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/copelandclips , in which has now gotten the attention of people all across the USA, and abroad. If I didn’t personally know better, one would actually think he cares about the protection of all his followers (partners),that pour money into his ministry. Requesting a summery of my mothers (Bonnie Parker) contributions, a long time partner of KCM, we like Grassley got little or no response. (Request viewable at http://sis359.blogspot.com/ ). If their partners aren’t entitled to this privileged information, even though they are funding this lavish lifestyle KCM has grown very accustom to, nor is the Senate entitled either, then who is? The IRS perhaps? Are the teachings of the Prosperity Gospel message being misconstrued? Do we, any of us, have a valid argument, or the right to ask for these records ? I believe with all my heart, we should let the ones affected most by this money making scam have a say in determining the answer to those questions..
“ I had a home“, “I had a life“, “I had faith“, “I had a family“, “I lost a loved one“, “I have no clue what the truth is anymore!” “I will never trust any form of religion.” these are merely a handful of endless testimonies coming to light nationwide. Ranging from all walks of life, their heartbreaking testimonies can be found throughout the web, yet inconceivably, victims are being labeled as fools, ignorant, and basically downright blind for not seeing the truth behind the Prosperity Gospels falsehoods. ” Being only human, our quest for health and wealth, regrettably does lead some in the wrong direction. Promises and guaranties, made by the Prosperity Gospel ministers, give people that have not obtained these blessings on their own, a second chance at achieving their goals in life. An important discovery I made while reviewing testimonies, revealed the fact numerous victims had very little knowledge of the Prosperity Gospels dark side. These unfortunate victims, appear to be equipped with only a small portion of the web of deceit these ministers weave. Knowledge, is the only discovery I found to be effective in this seemingly endless battle. Sadly for some our efforts will go unheard. God be with them.
The family of Bonnie Parker
sis359@gmail.com
Photo, before and after KCM,
http://picasaweb.google.com/sis359/BonnieParkerDiaryPhoto
Documentary Suffer The Children, exposes televangelists lavish lifestyles ,
http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/suffer-children
Book recently published by Sara Posner, also looks into these subjects,
http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Profits-Republican-Crusade-Values/dp/0979482216
I know what you're going through. I've found it necessary to leave a church I had been attending for a long time. It's very tough, especially this time of year. But sometimes God just says it's time to go, and you have to follow. If you would like I'll keep you in prayer about it.
Have you started looking for another church? I know some folks can see the split coming and do some visiting ahead of time, and some just wait until they leave.
My childhood through late teen years were in the PHC. My early married life was in Baptist. Middle marriage years in AOG and the past 8 or so back in the PHC which is the one I grew up in. I sent a letter this past week explaining why I could no longer attend there using scripture to show where God is leading me. I pointed out no doctrinal error that I believe they live under. For months I have prayed for God to show me if he wanted to use me to bring some things up to them. He did not but opened the door for my exit.
I was taught from childhood not to take things in the Bible for granted, but to check everything against what the Bible itself says. On several occasions I've trooped into my pastor's office and disagreed with him. But then I'm a natural troublemaker :)
The church you describe is the one that I feel I belong to. Not the physical one, but the one in my heart. I go to two different churches every week, for services and for Bible classes, one non-denominational and one Baptist. I will attend a Bible class or service at any church that teaches the Word of God, and not the traditions of men, or that purposely disobeys the word of God. I consider myself a Biblical Christian and not a member of a denomination. I think that for now it's the best we can get.
This is why I believe those in denominations may be at risk. Matthew 15:1-20
Matthew 15:1-20
“Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.” Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.” Then Peter answered and said to Him, “Explain this parable to us.” So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”
Paul commended those at Berea for searching scripture behind his teachings to confirm he was teaching truth. We believers, I would venture to say, have never done this. I know I had not until recently.
One church with Yeshua as its head with no denominational inspired doctrine, but who strive to work out the truth in scripture through prayer and study of Gods Word is what I'd like to see, but as you say it will never happen.
I am not nor will I ever say if a person belongs to a denomination they are on the wide path to desctuction. I do believe however they may be at greater risk due to, for the most part, implicit trust in their pastors who are taught scripture skewed towards denominational doctrine.
Imagine there were a church in which the pastor taught on a subject, those in the congregation went home reread and searched scripture and found that pastor in error and broght this to his attention. The pastor listened to them, researched scripture and confirmed his own error and corrected his teaching. This is that which edifies the body and all grow in the knowledge of Yeshua.
I'm sorry, I'm not getting what you want, instead of the way things are. To be all one denomination? That would be great, but until the Lord's return I don't see it happening.
Or are you saying that if one belongs to a denomination then they are on the wide path to destruction.
As I said I'm just not getting exactly what you're advocating.
What you are describing is making another denomination that would have as it's main tenet not having denominations.
I do not believe God puts up with our failures. Our failures come from attempting to “do” for God with selfish desires. Failures come through the accumulative actions of man to become self important. Denominations were birthed out of man’s selfish desires in an attempt to lay hold of and manipulate God’s Word and creation. This birthing has nothing to do with man actually, except for being a willing operative for the one who from the beginning of time has sought to corrupt Gods plans and creations, Lucifer. The corruption continues as modern man believes the lie as did Adam and Eve who sought to be wise in their own eyes. This is where denominations came from and why I believe God abhors them. But one says, “What of all the good churches do?” I can not speak for God but I read scripture that says, “Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.” Lk 13:23,24 In verse 27 … “I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.” Also in Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.” My point? There is nothing in scripture promoting denominations. There is nothing in scripture stating God accepts and over looks our failures to hijack his will and plans by conforming them to suit us because we, who are liars, believe he meant this or that. God forgives our sins but I dare say there are no “denominations” willing to admit there sins, denounce denominational affiliation and seek Gods will for his way for what church is to be. Even the “Non-denominational” churches hold to many practices found in denominational churches. Could there be “many” in churches today who are turned away due to following blind man inspired wisdom? I can only say it is possible. I believe God does find true hearts within churches who seek him. I pray for believers to awaken and desire to know our God and follow him and not man, but the end of the age will work out according to his plan as he wills it.
"No one can come unless they are called."
Amen!
We are called however to witness and to bring people to Christ. I believe we are to do it as if it did matter, and let God bring who He will to Himself.
Oglefam - What it seems to be saying is that denominations exist, but that as long as we accept the fundamentals of the faith that they shouldn't matter. They aren't advocating them, simply stating why they exist and the last paragraph makes the point that it isn't good:
"Sadly, there is another reason for denominational differences and that is the failure of Christians to live according to the will of God. The truth is that we are all sinners and we do not see things eye to eye. It is an unfortunate truth that denominational differences are due to our shortsightedness and lack of love. But, the good thing is that God loves us so much that He puts up with our failures. There waits for us, in spite of our differences, a great reward in heaven. Neither salvation nor damnation is dependent upon our differences".
Denominations are a fact in Christianity, a sad fact, but still a fact. People will always feel the need to find fault and be judgmental over things they don't agree on, it's part of our fallen human nature unfortunately. All we can do is to try to ignore those divisions ourselves and try not to live in condemnation and division ourselves.
In addition and not only distinct to that website but too many claiming to preach the gospel, the repentance of a "sinner" through the calling of the Holy Spirit is the beginning of redemption. Calling sinners "seekers" implies, at least to me, the seeker is the one doing the work when it is the Holy Spirit who draws all men. No one can come unless they are called.
On their home page, left side, click on "Answers for Seekers", First topic under "Questions" titled "What about different denominations?"
Oglefam - Could you tell me how to get to the place on CARM you're commenting on. Just to make sure we're on the same page.
RBB, what I mean is this, there is no scriptual basis supporting the statement CARM states whereby Christian denominations are allowed, due to difference of opinion concerning different understandings of non-doctine scripture. In other words; Baptist, AOG, Methodist and other Christian denominations are not scriptual. There is no scripture giving acceptance for this but there is scripture stating this is not to happen. All are man derived for man's purpose and divide the body of Christ which is not to be. The deeper point I would like to make is this, you stated to someone of their continual pushing of certain websites and recommended one of your own. That is fine. What believers have to understand is that anything derived from man is a lie. I know there are some pastors who actually want those in their care to actually study God's Word. The main problem with believers today is placing implicit trust in the one tending the sheep instead of the study of God's Word for its truth, not man's version of it. Being a believer is a personal thing and there are too many who rely on others knowledge of God's Word which is so important to and for us individually. Someone else's knowledge of God's Word will not benefit you or I when the storms come. Personal knowledge from personal study and personal time with our Lord is where our strength comes from. Anyone who rests in the words of man is potentially doomed to fall. God's man will point souls to Yeshua and no where else.
Oglefam - Are you saying that you don't like that CARM makes the judgment that certain groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons aren't really Christians? If that isn't what you're saying, could you please explain a little more what you do mean.
I did also look at the CARM website you suggested RBB and disagree with their stance on denominations. Scripture does not allow for denominations because of differences of opinion as long as major doctrinal issues are the same. 1 Corinthians 1: 13 has a question that settles the denomination question: "Is Christ divided?"...answer, not supposed to be, yet we do.
Churches today have tax exempt status from our government. They keep records of each “gift” and give the giver a receipt which allows for the reduction of that persons taxable income to the IRS. This to me negates any promise of blessing or prosperity from a financial perspective as the reward of giving has been gained through reduced taxes to Czar. Side note, Yeshua had no problem paying taxes, and the church is better than Christ?
AOG and Baptist each give housing allowances to their pastors. Having served as a deacon in an AOG church and having a brother who was a Baptist minister I have knowledge of how the system works. In my role as a deacon there were a few times we had to discuss and vote on pastor compensation. The pastor gave me some ideas of how it worked before hand. Instead of increasing his compensation say by $100 per week, he suggested that his housing allowance, which was $250 a month be raised to $450 and his compensation to $50 a week. Here was the catch, pastors only had to claim their compensation as income to the IRS, housing allowances were not taxable. Add to this travel expenses, also not taxable, and he received a nice compensation with a minimal tax liability impact. I remember my brother telling me something similar in the Baptist organization. This is most likely what the “mega ministries” do which lavishes “gifts” from their congregations with no taxable damage to the “mega minister.” Try this, attempt to find out what any “mega minister” claims as personal income then see how they live that falls under the category of “housing allowance” or some other misleading heading. This is deception in the church aided by our federal government.
There are to me some things to take into consideration as well, if you are attending a fellowship that feeds you spiritually you are to support it. If that fellowship is taking care of the saints, feeding the poor and needy or taking care of the sick, the body is to support it.
I believe churches should at least a couple times a year present to the fellowship, records explaining how monies are dispersed. This is not Biblical but may allow fellowship members encouragement from knowing God is blessing others through them. In fact it may be Biblical. Those in Macedonia, who were poor and struggling, but had such a desire to help another struggling church they were determined to give and in a sense would not take no for an answer. They gave.
2 Peter 2:19 states that we can be brought into the bondage as are false teachers through their alluring words of lust. Example: There have been many sermons from pulpits concerning Malachi 3 in which blessings are promised through testing God by faithful tithing, also of God cursing those who do not. This is a guilt inducing formula to collect money. Being in error this binds those listening into bondage due to implicit trust being placed in the one teaching. Many false prophets and pastor-teachers are bound in this and therefore place into bondage those under their care. This is wide spread.
Now let me offer a view of God’s prosperity and blessings as scripturally based to the best of my understanding as led by the Holy Spirit. I believe in God’s prosperity as taught in 2 Corinthians 9. I believe the prerequisite for this type of prosperity is found in Matthew 6:33 by seeking God’s Kingdom first, which dictates one has to be a believer. Matthew 6:33 could also simply refer to God supplying our “needs” i.e. what we will eat, drink or wear. I also believe this giving is in accordance with the preceding chapter stating: a willing mind, according to what one has, NOT according to what one does NOT have, equally as to not burden certain ones. In other words, when God blesses with excess the one being blessed gives in excess from a willing heart. There is an offer of abundant reaping(receiving) due to abundant sowing(giving). Give a little and receive a little. Give in abundance and receive in abundance. This is to be tempered as scripture teaches in 2 Corinthians 8: according to means. In other words: if the funds to satisfy your bills is $100 and you have $120 you are to decide in your heart what you will give with gladness from the $20. Sacrifice comes when you willingly decide to give $5 but notice another believer who has lack and is in need and give to them out of Christian love. On the other hand God has not placed anyone in need into your heart so instead you decide with a willing and cheerful heart to give(sow) $20 instead of $5.
His watchmen are blind, they are all ignorant; they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. Yes, they are greedy dogs which never have enough. And they are shepherds who cannot understand; they all look to their own way, every one for his own gain...Tomorrow will be as today, and much more abundant. Isaiah 56:10-12
we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord... 1Corinthians 4:2-5
Proof! How much more do you need! You refuse to hear this--word-of-faith teachings are heretical! This has nothing to do with their wicked financial fleecing of the blind flock! They teach another gospel--which is not the Gospel--and they mock Christ and the one living God. It is heresy to claim the attonement was not finished upon the cross when Christ shed His blood for sinful man. It is against Scripture. Those that do so have an agenda--they have God's nature changing in hell, which leads to Christ becoming merely man in need of spiritual rebirth, which leads them to the deification of man. This is blasphemy! Heresy! And Meyers is of this camp. I have stated my doctrinal position. Why can you not state yours? And why can you not answer to shaming me? Could it be that just like Meyers, you would now prefer to keep it hidden due to rebuke?
NOTW - I directed you to where I asked you a question. Which I have no doubt that you found, and still evidently refuse to answer.
I have in no way berated others, simply asked repeatedly for the proof behind all the wild claims being made.
I again do not appreciate your accusations, or tone. Unless that changes I have no more to say to you.
You shame the counsel of the poor, But the Lord is his refuge. Psalm 14:6. RBB, you shamed me, then quote Scripture against doing so. Well, who are you to judge another man's servant? I am justified before God, and have no need to justify myself, nor will I speak to please sinful man, but only the Lord my God who has delivered me from the prison of wickedness; I am His and must walk in His ways. If I have been harsh and offensive, and injurous to your delicate sensibilities, please understand that it is from a heart filled with disgust at that which the Lord has called abomination. The truth must be spoken against those who mock the true Gospel, the true Christ, and the one living God. And the doctrines of the word-of-faith cult do these things. You consistently come against those who would discern the truth as ALL Christians are commanded to do, yet I have seen little discussion of DOCTRINE. Do not be blinded by what this cult does with money. The enemy is laughing at you.
RBB--sorry, but I could not find anywhere your statements of Ms. Meyer's doctrinal stance. Are you truly aware of the doctrines in the word-of-faith cult? You consistently berate others for judging without knowledge, but where is yours? Please understand that I do know their doctrines, and how Meyers has toned down after many rebukes, but has never repented. This is first-hand knowledge. I state again that this financial examination is not what prompts my disgust with these ministries. Their works with unrighteous mammon mean nothing in light of the abominations in their doctrines.
jc4me - Of course I forgive you, as our dear Lord Jesus has told us to. In the future you may want to keep in mind that when you use only part of a quote, that the rest is also implied. I still hope that God will open your eyes, and I wish you well.
I'm sorry if you thought i said swine. I never said the word swine and I was refering to not thorwing something valuable here anymore if people are going to dismiss the true quotes of false teachers. If I offended you I a trully sorry, and i beg your forgiveness for that comment. maybe it was too harsh. Please forgive me. I am done trying to convince you with quotes from the mouths of these heretics. I can just pray that God would sharpen my words to continue telling the truth in love. Again, I'm sorry if you thought I was calling you a swine. I know the scripture you were refering to, but I was trying to just make a point about the pearl thing; not the swine thing. please forgive me. I just hope the Lord opens your eyes to the false teachings of Copeland, Myers and the like. Good night, and I hope you forgive me for any misunderstanding. I was not trying to disrespect you; honestly.
NOTW - If you look at page three of the complete post list, you will see my responses to your last questions and statements. If you want to continue this discussion you can start with that. I'll state right here, I have no intention of continuing a discussion if you or anyone else gets insulting.
RBB, i did not mention the word swine anywhere in my quote. I said i would not throw my pearls out anymore. I never used the word swine. please go back carefully and read my reply.
jc4me - I do not appreciate being called swine, and please don't claim that you didn't, I (and everyone who knows their Bible) knows the quote. No, you are most definitely not the Holy Spirit and I do seek Him daily. I do not know if you intend to insult when you tell your Christian brothers and sister to do things like that but it is most insulting. I too am done. I pray God will open your eyes to the truth of the Bible.
NOTW: I was trying to post under my precious user name jc4me for a few more false doctrines quoted fro Joyce Myers, and the CP warned me about the material being offensive, etc. I guess it may have been because some of her quotes contained the word "hell", but I really don't know the reason behind it. I will now be posting under my new user name jesus4me. When you see this, it is me jc4me, but just a little different.
yeah and Graceman, why haven't you been able to find scripture and verse to show proof where Kenneth Copeland's teachings aren't erroneous; particularly these quotes:
"Copeland speaking of Adam "his body and Adams were the exactly the same size." (Holy bible K. Copeland Reference Edition p.45)
K. Copeland speaking of God " A being that stands somewhere around 6-2 , 6-3 that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds or a little better, has a span of 9 inches across (relating to his own hand span) (Spirit, soul and a Body 1985 audio # 01-0601 side 1Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body 1, 1985. )
When you find Bible book, Scripture and Verse(s) where the Bible actually says God was like Adam, and that he is 6"2" in height and that He (God) has a hand span of 9 inches across, then you please make sure you post it, so we can go to the Bible and verify this. Also, Benny Hinn said something similar concerning Adam being able to fly, and all, but he couldn't back that up biblically either could he?
Thank you jc4me. You have great patience. May the Lord contiue to bless you with true discernment and peace.
graceman--are you a god? Do you believe in polytheim?
RBB--please state which doctrinal positions of Joyce Meyer you agree with.
If those quotes aren't good enough for you, then RBB, I'm done throwing my pearls here. I'm not the Holy Spirit, so maybe you should seek Him and ask Him to reveal to you what may be wrong with Seed Faith/Word Faith/Prosperity Doctrine/Name it and Claim it. Maybe you should also check out the quote I listed from Kenneth Copeland who you cannot deny has influenced Joyce Myers teachings. I'm done trying to prove something to you that you refuse to see. I'm done. I wish you well, and may the Lord show you this error of prosperity teaching. I know you have a wonderful heart, and your purpose is to get to the truth, but you are missing the point in what I say. I'm done.
I tried again, and the Christian post gave me another warning. Sorry, I won't be able to quote anymore Joyce Myers quotes for you, but the ones I quoted for you should be enough.
sorry RBB, it appears that the Joyce Myers quotes I was quoting to you under jc4me were not very friendly to the site, and they basically barred me off the site under that user name. I will try again under this new user and hopefully it will accept the quotes. The only word I can think of as being ofrensive language in the quote is "hell", but it has never booted me out before, so here we go again.
RBB, here are the Joyce Myers quotes you asked for.
1) “Several years ago I found myself completely worn out from trying to fight the devil. I learned many ‘methods’ of spiritual warfare; however, they did not seem to be working ... I had fallen into the trap that many Christians fall into. I had the right teaching, but the wrong order ... I was feverishly applying methods I had learned — like fasting and prayer ... rebuking and resisting evil spirits ... empty formulas which wear us out and produce no results except maybe a sore throat” (The Word, The Name, The Blood, pp. 28, 32, 33).
2) Her now-unavailable tape, “What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” continued to teach the “Born-Again Jesus” doctrine; she also subsequently says that she is not a sinner:
“I’m going to tell you something folks, I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I’m righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time ... All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?”
This is what the Bible says; not what Joyce Myers says:
The Apostle John says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8). It is Christ’s righteousness imparted to us, not ours, that makes us righteous.
jc4me - I can't understand why, if you knew that was what I was refering to, you would waste my time reading through your posts while you went on about the born again comment, acting like that was what was bothering you.
Since you say you are very familiar with Joyce and her teaching, please direct me to her book, tape, or quote (from her, not one of your websites) that connects the born again comment with the Word Faith movement.
RBB wrote:
"jc4me -
I was responding to Jesus being " in Hell". I think you'll find that the "born again man" is more of a metaphor. Just as the word Trinity isn't in the Bible, and there is nowhere in the Bible that says when you die you "go to heaven". You do believe in the Trinity, and going to Heaven even though it's not "scriptural" right?"
Yes, I know you were referring to Jesus decscending into "hell" or "hades" or into the "grave", but in needed to show you why I disagree with her fundamental doctrines. And yes I do believe in the Trinity, and I firmly believe it is Scriptural. And no, when Joyce Myers uses the prase "the first born again man" refering to Jesus, I don't believe it is a metaphor. I believe it is tied in with the erroneous teachings of the Word Faith Movement.
jc4me -
I was responding to Jesus being " in Hell". I think you'll find that the "born again man" is more of a metaphor. Just as the word Trinity isn't in the Bible, and there is nowhere in the Bible that says when you die you "go to heaven". You do believe in the Trinity, and going to Heaven even though it's not "scriptural" right?
jc4me-
Question 1) The reason I've "assumed" that you've never heard Joyce Meyer is that every time I've asked you for first hand examples of things she has said that prove your accusations, you have quoted copiously from your "websites" and on occasion in the last three articles we've been discussing this on, have made statements to that effect. If you have, wonderful. Now you can give first hand examples of things she is supposed to have said, that prove any points you make about her.
You say yes.... it's OK to just find someone guilty on the assumption of hearing someone like what you think they are. That it's OK to lump anyone you even think is teaching prosperity together and condemn them. Please give proof in the Bible that this is the right thing to do.
2) Perhaps you miss understood the question... Would you want a false accusation used to judge you? An example would be..when you belonged to that old church suppose someone had seen you there. They met you know and even though you no longer believe what that group does, this person accuses you of it and refuses to be talked out of it. Would that type of judgment be OK with you.
3) Those judging Christians don't make the kinds of distinctions you make. They don't care what Jesus actually said, or what being a "real" Christian is. They just have an idea in their head as to what a Christian is, and they don't hear any more. The question was not about other Christians judging the body, it was about non-Christians judging Christians unjustly.
4) The homes you mention and the "commode", which is still not proven by the way as far as I know, are also for the ministry. So I guess it's more than 82%. Unless you or anyone else give over 80 percent of their income in the Lord's work, I don't think they have the right to say anything.
Numbers 23:19 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
Gracemand: Could it be that Mr. Kenneth Copeland had some "special revelation" apart from the Scriptures? Maybe you can answer that as well.
Graceman worte:
"jc4me , Perhaps Copeland bases his teaching on Romans 8:29, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers,” NIV. He has a different interpretation of scripture than you. Big deal! It is not the end of the Christian faith. Copeland shares what ancient Jewish scholars think about the creation of man. I do not find a problem with that.
Of course I understand that your views are set in stone. You will not accept the scriptures I show you or my testimony about how God is prospering me. But just because you do not believe it does mean it is not true. Fortunately in the Christian faith we have freedom. "
Graceman, what does Romans 8:29 have to do with Adam being like God, or that God is a man with certain height with a certain hand span size, when the Word says that God can measure the Universe with the span of His hand? Perhaps you can answer this for Mr. Copeland as well? Please read the whole counsel of God, not just what you believe to be an interpretation by a so called teacher of the Word; which is subsequently a false one.
here is Copelands quote(s) again so yo can address that specifically in your answer and tell me if anywhere in the Word you can find what he is teaching?:
"Copeland speaking of Adam "his body and Adams were the exactly the same size." (Holy bible K. Copeland Reference Edition p.45)
K. Copeland speaking of God " A being that stands somewhere around 6-2 , 6-3 that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds or a little better, has a span of 9 inches across (relating to his own hand span) (Spirit, soul and a Body 1985 audio # 01-0601 side 1Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body 1, 1985. )
RBB:
No where i the Scriptures you mention does the Bible indicate that Christ was the first born again man. If you or Joyce Myers, or anyone else can prove to me Scripturally that Christ was the first born again man, then please do so. I checked out the Apostles Creed, and it does not mention this "born again Jesus". I agree with Christ decending and ministering to the spirits held captive in prison since the days of Noah, because that is biblical.
Here is that Scripture to prove my point:
1 Peter 3:18-20 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Christ’s Suffering and Ours
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[a] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[b] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
Footnotes:
1 Peter 3:18 NU-Text and M-Text read you.
1 Peter 3:20 NU-Text and M-Text read when the longsuffering of God waited patiently.
RBB wrote:
"jc4me - you quoted
“During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there ... no plan was too extreme ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell” (pg. 35, emphasis added).
“God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus ... He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man” (pg. 36)."
It would seem that quite a few Christians of different denominations agree with this view of where Jesus was, during at least part of the three days. It is present in the Apostles Creed, and spoken of in some places in scripture - see Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and Psalm 16:10-11. Do you consider all who believe this heretics?"
To answer your question, those who believe it, obviously were erroniously taught it, or they learned it thru some other extra-biblical means. A "born-again Jesus" is no where taught in the Scriptures, so yes, those who believe it are in error, but those who flat out teach it are the ones teaching false doctrines and are heretics. I would hope that those who believe it out of ignorance would somehow have the truth taught to them, so they can know the truth that will set them free, those who have taught it, and continue to teach it as false doctrine would repent, recall their books, their commentaries and make public professions of how this is false doctrine and they are trully sorry for misleading so many baby Christians into believing this heresy.
Continued to RBB:
Question#4
"How can someone be using the money (82%) of it, in preaching, feeding the hungry, taking care of orphans, building churches and still be using it to line their own pockets? "
The answer to this is easy. Look at the homes they live in, the cars they drive, and what they preach.
Benny Hinn lives in a multi million dollar estate valued at over 9 million.
Joyce Myers has homes paid for by the ministry for her family as well as herself, and the church picks up the tab on the landscaping, maintenance, etc. She also bought a 23,000.00 marble top commode for herself. To the question some of you asked about "well what difference does it make, it's none of our business what one does with personal income"?
I would answer that all things are lawful, but not all things are beneficial. It is one thing for a business man to spend money like that, and it is another thing for a pastor, teacher, or evangelist entrusted with preaching the Word to live that way. It tells where their first love is, ad those who teach will be held to a much higher judgment in the eyes of God.
Again, as I answered to you before, as well as to others here; the heathen do good works as well, but don't know Christ. If the Apostles went thru hard times and none of them preached a "prosperity" doctrine, then what makes these modern day teachers any different?
I hope I have answered your questions in the best way possible. I will answer your other question shortly.
Continued to RBB:
Question # 3
"How is this different than those who judge all Christians by the actions of a few, such as those who abuse children, or scream obscenities at soldiers funerals believing it to be the will of God."
For one thing this is different because the world will always take one or two incidents from a so called believer and say to the rest of the world that this is the normal image in all Christians portray. The difference is that we as the Body of Christ are called to discern the sheep from the wolves in sheep clothing. IF a "so-called Christian" is physically, or sexually abusing their child, or their wife, husband, etc, and there is no repentance about the actions, is no true remorse for the actions, and a desire to change course with the Lord leading, then one would have to naturally question if they truly know Christ in the first place. Also, if a "so-called Christian" goes out and bombs an abortion clinic, one would have to question that there is something clearly wrong there as well. Was that person saved in the first place, and were they walking with the Lord daily. IF the answer to the questions are no, then I would believe that the next question is to ask them to repent and truly follow Christ, or you would have to disassociate with them in hopes that the Lord would eventually bring them back into the family again and restore their disobedience as the Apostle Paul exhorts us to do wit those who call themselves brethren an are clearly living in a habitual pattern of sinful living without repentance. Secondly, I would not think that it is very Christ-like, even if homosexuality is a sin to stand at homosexual funerals and hold up signs that say "God hates homosexuals". This is clearly unbiblical, and those that do such things need to repent of their deeds, because they too are teaching false doctrines and giving God a bad name. This is why the name of God is blasphemed amongst many in the world. This is the enemy at work. But I do not fear other Christians judging the Whole Body of Christ for a few Prosperity Teachers, or other "so called Christians" doing things that are clearly anti-biblical, because these Doctrines are false, and I think those who search the Scriptures daily will ask God for discernment on these things, and will exhort those in love who are in this sort of things, as well as exhort them to repent and change their ways. Now if their actions eventually catch up to them for non-repentance, then that is the course of sin. It will eventually catch up to them or anyone else with unrepentant sin in their lives. God is patient and forgiving, but sin takes its course if it is not dealt with promptly, and it will cause havoc in places you never thought, and affect other's around you as well.
Continued to RBB:
To answer your first question yes. ") Do you think it's right to judge a person (in this case a whole group of ministers) for what another has said, without listening to them."
RBB, what makes you think I haven't heard Rod Parsley, Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, JoyceMyers, Kenneth Hagin, Oral Roberts, or watched TBN, etc?
I've heard all of them, and I actually read a book by Joyce Myers about the Battlefield of the mind, so if you're assuming I am making unjust accusations about a prosperity "speak things into existence" false doctrine, I am not. I have heard all these guys and as I advised before, I came out of this movement which I atended for a short time while in my 20's and was not grounded in the Word. I also wet to a curch that taught this sort of thing, and I know what they teach. This is why I can say that what they teach is twisted. I always knew there were some "selfish" teachings, especially from John Avanzini, who is BIG on the prosperity name it and claim it junk, but at that time, I wasn't really understanding the whole meaning about contending for the faith and staying in sound doctrinal teachings.
Question# 2:
“Would you like to have this judgment used against you?"
To answer your question, if I had written a book were I taught false doctrine and someone quoted me, and I went to the Scriptures and found out I had taught a false interpretation of God and Scriptures, then Yes, by all means, if that is what it took for me to recall my books, make a public profession of repentance, and ask for forgivness from GOd pulicly, privately, and also fro my congregation, as well as change my erroneous way of teacing, and start teaching sound doctrine to my congregation, I would expect it, and I would pray that both God would convict me about false teacing if I was in that form of error, as well as other believers to exhort me to repent of my erroneous ways, so YES. If I was conducting false teaching; ABSOLUTELY.
RBB wrote:
"jc4me - I'm sorry, I guess I didn't make myself plain. As far as I can see, none of your past posts have answered these questions. Some of what I'm asking is:
1) Do you think its right to judge a person (in this case a whole group of ministers) for what another has said, without listening to them.
2) Would you like to have this judgment used against you?
3) How is this different than those who judge all Christians by the actions of a few, such as those who abuse children, or scream obscenities at soldiers funerals believing it to be the will of God.
4) How can someone be using the money (82%) of it, in preaching, feeding the hungry, taking care of orphans, building churches and still be using it to line their own pockets?"
jc4me - you quoted
“During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there ... no plan was too extreme ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell” (pg. 35, emphasis added).
“God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus ... He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man” (pg. 36)."
It would seem that quite a few Christians of different denominations agree with this view of where Jesus was, during at least part of the three days. It is present in the Apostles Creed, and spoken of in some places in scripture - see Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and Psalm 16:10-11. Do you consider all who believe this heretics?
jc4me - I'm sorry, I guess I didn't make myself plain. As far as I can see, none of your past posts have answered these questions. Some of what I'm asking is:
1) Do you think it's right to judge a person (in this case a whole group of ministers) for what another has said, without listening to them.
2) Would you like to have this judgment used against you?
3) How is this different than those who judge all Christians by the actions of a few, such as those who abuse children, or scream obscenities at soldiers funerals believing it to be the will of God.
4) How can someone be using the money (82%) of it, in preaching, feeding the hungry, taking care of orphans, building churches and still be using it to line their own pockets?
jc4me , Perhaps Copeland bases his teaching on Romans 8:29, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers,” NIV. He has a different interpretation of scripture than you. Big deal! It is not the end of the Christian faith. Copeland shares what ancient Jewish scholars think about the creation of man. I do not find a problem with that.
Of course I understand that your views are set in stone. You will not accept the scriptures I show you or my testimony about how God is prospering me. But just because you do not believe it does mean it is not true. Fortunately in the Christian faith we have freedom.
As for all Pentecostal churches being in the prosperity realm, I do believe that. As a child I remember our denomination was Pentecostal Holiness, somewhere along the line Holiness was dropped. Today we are _________ Worship Center. As a way of joking off the Creflo thing our pastor made this comment a month of so back during service when this probe started: “Someone asked me about my thoughts on Creflo Dollar and I replied, I have no comment because I am pastor No Dollar.” I have no problem with the “no comment” part but to joke if off…I have noticed more and more the sermons are “promising” type preceded by comical dialogue to loosen up the “audience”. Itching ear preaching? To those who don’t study the Word as those in Berea did, yes. That was my last service there.
What started my awakening was several years back I happened to catch Mr. Parsley and thought, this guy is great, powerful speaking, from the Word. The more I listened to him, maybe because of his boldness in speaking I don’t know, but I began to notice his plea for “gifts” on every telecast. A few times this was after his preaching of having faith for God to do the impossible in your life. I began thinking, “if you want me to believe God can do the impossible in my life, why are you asking me for money? Can’t this God you preach to me do the same for you?” But instead of digging into the Word for truth I just stopped watching him.
I began really paying attention to my pastor’s sermons and the words he uses. He is very subtle but if you pay attention he teaches what those listed here teach. Which is “If you believe and have the faith of a mustard seed, you can speak your desires into existence.” And “if you need finances, sow finances”. Jesus tells me in his words to become his disciple I have to I have to give up all and follow him. This is no easy task. This may be why scripture tells us to “endure, hold fast and strive” among other things. There is a plethora of teaching from scripture on this discipleship. Will God require me to give up all? For starters he wants my hearts desire in a place where I say yes if he asks. Maybe this is partly why he is “longsuffering”. Scripture does promise blessings from God, provided the desire of our heart is in his will. Given that God does bless according to his will wouldn’t this make those here abiding by his will? Satan is a great deceiver study and allow God’s truth to speak to you. This along with the issue concerning the tithing topic began my quest for his truth and not man’s version of it. “Let God be true and every man a liar.” Yep this includes me, STUDY FOR YOURSELF. Dig into his Word and let it speak to you, I promise it will.
A few years back our pastor, who doesn’t allow but maybe 3 people I can think of behind his podium, had this guy from Poland. I didn’t go but my wife did and she came home proclaiming this guys gift of prophecy. She was so excited he had given a prophecy over our daughter, who has some issues, which have never come to pass. And there are some others from our church with similar “non-happenings”. Yet this guy is still allowed to break the bread of life in our midst. In the last service I attended my pastor made this comment, “I believe I have a prophetic word for 2008” and went on about blessing after blessing for the upcoming year. My first thought was, “you believe?” His tone was not one of a firm commitment as in “I BELIEVE”. I know this because part of this statement was also “although I don’t operate as strongly in the prophetic gift as others”. Thank God Jesus did not lack confidence in his message.
I do study the Bible for its truth as instructed in; 1 John 2:26 & 27 “These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.” and test as per scripture in 1 John 2:15-17 “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.” Does this mean those ministries listed here survive this test? I have my opinion, let God’s Word speak to you. Remember this: 1 John 2:20 & 21 “But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.” Does it say your “anointing” will be “blown” or “thrown” upon you by a man? No, it plainly says we all have been given the anointing by the Holy One. It never needs to be refreshed or renewed, when the Holy Spirit indwells believers we become anointed the same as all believers. There are different gifts but ONE anointing, and it is not a thing it is the Holy Spirit.
After my study of tithing my curiosity was pricked as to the many other area’s Pentecostals hold as solid doctrine which I knew of and even believed for many years. Examples: the anointing, binding and loosing, authority over Satan…etc. As for those ministries here the only one’s I have paid attention to over the years are Mr. Hinn and Mr. Copeland. Mr. Hinn due to the fact there were a few times when his crusades were in our area my pastor would be called upon to lead the crusades praise and worship portion of service. I did not participate but since my pastor had a role in the crusade I would watch Mr. Hinn on the tube when I could. My wife went a couple of times via our church bus, as did many others.
RBB:
This is why I disagree with Kenneth Copeland and his heretical teachings on Adam being like God. He talks about God’s height, etc, etc; the nerve of this guy to contradict the Scriptures blatantly in his teachings!
"Copeland speaking of Adam "his body and Adams were the exactly the same size." (Holy bible K. Copeland Reference Edition p.45)
K. Copeland speaking of God " A being that stands somewhere around 6-2 , 6-3 that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds or a little better, has a span of 9 inches across (relating to his own hand span) (Spirit, soul and a Body 1985 audio # 01-0601 side 1Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body 1, 1985. )
This is just one heretical teaching taught by Word Faith teachers who subsequently teaches prosperity. I'm sorry RBB, I know you like Joyce Myers, but she is an astute student of Kenneth Copeland and many of her core beliefs stem from his teachings.
In her 1991 booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make, an evangelistic work aimed at nonbelievers, Joyce Myers resounds wit the Word-Faith view of Christ’s atonement, and I quote:
“During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there ... no plan was too extreme ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell” (pg. 35, emphasis added).
“God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus ... He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man” (pg. 36)."
As you can see, there is page, book name and direct heretical quotes. The Bible does not teach that latter notion of a "born again Jesus", and neither does it teach Copeland’s position on Adam being the same as God, or God being a certain height. I say if the Apostles that saw the risen Lord did not have a "special revelation" contrary to the Scriptures, and then tell about it, then why should Kenneth Copeland have one?
I tell you RBB, if it doesn't line up with Scripture, then I don't want to have anything to do with it. The Word tells us to contend earnestly for the faith. Look at Jude 3.
Until we speak again, I bid you a good night. The Lord bless you and open your eyes to this deception. And again, I’m sorry you did not understand my position previously.
RBB:
Please stop making me repeat myself. I have quoted several posts on this site explaining why I believe that seed faith doctrine is heretical. I previously have gone into great detail quoting Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Myers on some heretical statements they personally made with references to their books. I have already made my position known as to how I think that Benny Hinn living in a 9 million dollar mansion is living an extremely lavish lifestyle with the money from the ministry. I ave alredy said that i disagree with these ministries having leer jets and having layovers in very nice exclusive resorts while on their way to and on their way back from "mission trips" and "teaching trips". I have already given you my position on the evangelist I heard with my own ears when i used to attend a charismatic word faith/seed faith/positive confession church and his heretical teachings. I have already given you my stance on why I don't believe that just cause they help poor people and feed the hungry it is enough to dismiss their error, and false teachings. I don't know what else to tell you. I've quoted 2 of the teachers verbatum, and given you sources where I got the info. One of whom you seem to like (joyce myers) and you are still telling me you don't understand my position. I'm done. If you want more of my position, you may scroll back a bit and read it in context. Thank you and good night. I apologize if I hadn't made myself clear previously after about 4 posts.
jc4me - No I don't know your position. You haven't responded to anything yet as far as I can see. The post you quoted below still goes. Do you have comment to it?
RBB:
This is why I asked you what I asked you. Prior to my sending out the second post, this is what you had to say, and the latest 3rd paragraph is the one that concerned me, because it seemed like you haden't read my position, and i had clearly put it on pror to you sending this one out. Sorry for the misunderstanding, but now you know my position on the matter and why I disagree with these word of faith teachers.
Here's the quote from you I was initially responding to when all the misunderstanding started:
"jc4me- You admit that you haven't heard them say it, but you still condemn them. Does that really sound like what you read in the Bible? Does it sound like what Jesus would say? Actually biblically speaking what Jesus would say is "well done thou good and faithful servant enter into the joy of thy Lord"
It seems to me from reading what you've written, that in your past somewhere, you heard a preacher that was very - make you rich - based, and from that you are willing to condemn anyone who is even accused of it, without actually knowing first what they preach or are about. Tell me how is this different from the person who judges Christianity by the actions of an aberrant pastor. How many of us have been lumped in with those crazy "Baptists" from Kansas who protest soldiers funerals, or a pastor from their youth that abused them, or someone who sees a pastor do something bad and then uses it to paint all Christians with the same brush.
I find it totally disturbing that you can't even admit that this ministry is doing wonderful work. They are feeding 11 million people a year. As someone who has been involved with that kind of ministry, I know what kind of work and money we are talking about. 50 fully funded orphanages, fifty, and you still have to try to say something negative. I never did say who this ministry belonged to, but no matter who it is, I still can't believe your reaction.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason that God has blessed this ministry the way He has, is because they use their talents wisely? "
Oglefam - I'm sorry but I'm not following you. Are you saying that you still don't study the Bible except to find out where the Pentecostals were wrong? Do you now think that tithing is wrong? What do you think is right in terms of giving to God? Do you think that all Pentecostal churches are "prosperity" churches. Do you have anything in specific to say about the ministries named here?
Not that it matters but some of you may want to know my point of reference. I am 50 and was brought up Pentecostal with several years in the AOG. This is sad to say, but for most of my life I never earnestly studied God's Word. Always believed what my pastors had taught, I mean, they are men of God right? Last April my son and his wife were struggling financially and down to their last 52 dollars. They had the choice of paying tithes or buying gas to get to work. Two pastors at our church instructed them to test God according to Mal 3 and pay their tithes to be blessed and not cursed. This sent me into a study on tithing verses giving which I'll not go into here. Since that time I have only used God's Word to study many areas Pentecostals taught me for years that I believed. What an eye openning experience and what a joy to finally know my God in truth.
Something else that has always stuck me as odd is, why, given these are faith speaking into existence ministries, do they have to, for the most part, continually hawk for “gifts/donations”? They teach those attending or watching to speak into existence what you want God to do for you yet they say, “if we can get 10,000 partners to send in a seed offering of $100 we can build our new school to raise up end time men of God.” Why not follow what they teach and speak it into existence and concentrate their precious air time pointing lost souls to the narrow way?
God blesses what is done in secret. Take that deeper and it is not what is done in secret but the intent of the heart of that which is done in secret that God blesses. Many prosperity adherents silently, some not so silently, use themselves as examples, i.e. "look how God has blessed me, sow your seed into this ministry and watch God multiply it." "If you will send in your seed faith offering of $100 God will return it a hundredfold." The hundredfold verse actually reads: Matthew 19:29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My names sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life." Earlier in Matthew Jesus also used the hundredfold term but it referred to good soil for the seed of the Word. I will state there is no pastor-teacher in this country who has left all to become a disciple of Jesus let alone the leader of a ministry. Without leaving all, a prerequisite, there can be no hundredfold blessing. I will heavily contend with you, and challenge you to, instead of sending your monthly $25 seed faith offering to the ministry of your choice to be blessed, you locate an elderly saint needing help in your area and sow your seed there, in secret. By the way, this was a main function of the early church. Ministries who advertise, "For a gift of $25 I’ll have my staff send you my teaching series on..." Or, "my book, a $30 value will be sent to you free of charge for every $20 gift" are nothing more than present day money changers and sellers of doves: is this not the same as Jesus found in the temple and cleared out? In this day and time there is a huge prostitution of Gods Word and God’s people. On top of this, being that “gifts/donations” to ministries, which are tax exempt, are tax deductible, of which those donating receive a receipt for and use to lower personal income taxes, isn't this reduction of taxable income a of reward? Also it is not done in secret: Matthew 6:1-4 “Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.” So if you sow your seed into a ministry, but take the tax deduction, don’t you already have your reward? That ministry acknowledges your “gift” with some type of token so secrecy is out of the window. I know of no ministries who are actually needy. Not only this, but Jesus had no problem paying taxes, rendering to Czar what was Czars, yet ministries don’t have to? Are they better than Christ?
There are approximately 3,018,000,000 men alive on the earth as of Sept 2007. Picture all of them standing shoulder to shoulder. At an average shoulder width of 21" this would create a line 1,000,284 miles long. And this is just men, who are approximately 50.3% of the worlds population. Double it to be gender correct by including women. This is also just of those living. That would be 4.2 trips to the moon. Distance from earth to the moon is 238,856 miles. Within this line stands Yeshua with an average shoulder width of 21”. Scripture says: Matthew 7:13 & 14 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” Luke 13:24 states: “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.” What or who is this narrow way? John 14:5 & 6 “Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
I don’t have a problem with what prosperity teachers teach per say. I do have a problem with those they lead astray into believing the gospel is for ones profit or blessings of riches in this life. Yes I do believe God can and does bless faithful servants but not by sowing a seed into a man oriented ministry. You ask that their fruit be looked at, what does a lost and dying world see when it looks at their fruit? Those being helped or a lavish life style?
jc4me - Of course I read that message, that was the one I responded to, actually I think we corresponded twice on it this morning. I said that I was responding to what you had just written. Did you not read what I wrote? You used the plural "posts" so I assumed the question was about more than just the one we were corresponding about. You also were claiming to have said something most definitely not in that post, so again I assumed you were referring to another post.
As to your proof reading, if you did, and that's the best it gets, no problem I'll muddle through.
Should I assume that you are not going to address anything else I said?
Graceman wrote:
"jc4me, People keep talking about ‘lavish lifestyles’. What is the problem with that? They are free do to what the want with their personal income. And how do you define lavish? Maybe you are living a lavish lifestyle too.
What is wrong with negative and positive confessions? Because if you practice positive confession in your life, you will discover that it works. Even secular people recognize that positive confession works. What wrong with speaking something into existence if it works when you do it according to the word of God. "
again Graceman, just cause something works like negative and positive confession andScripture is twisted to conform the Scripture to the dcotrines of man makes it a false teaching and doesn't make it biblical. EST training works for secular people, and so does the new age, and it is not what God has for us; yet many in the ecumenical drive for unifying Christians world wide have been softening their approaches to how we should view sin and the Bible. All false doctrines are false doctrines; this is not my opinion. this is biblical fact.
Graceman wrote:
"NOTW, please go read my previous posts. If what these men and women of God teach was not backed up by scripture then I would listen to them. But it is backed up by scripture and I practice what they teach and it works. And because it works for me and many others, this message continues to spread. If there was noting to it, if would fade away."
graceman, the emerging church has a lot of good points, so does the seeker sensitive movement but so does a porcupine. My suggestion is for you to stay away from them. With regard to "every wind of doctrine" fading away, have you even seen the winds of doctrine carried away in the charismania movement? "holy laughter" people claiming to see gold dust falling from the ceiling of the sanctuary where they are worshipping, people dancing around the church while the preacher is speaking as not being able to control their own will, because they don't want to quench the Holy spirit? People barking like dogs such as in the Toronto Blessing and Brownesville? Are you quoting these happenings all backed by the people you like? NO you're not, because they seem to indicate a lack of self control, and fleshly activities that are not of the Spirit of God. And just cause something works like positive and negative confession doesn't make it biblical; they can twist the Scriptures all they want, but if people trully desire to see what the Scriptures teach, then the "experiences" these people are having are going to fall in line, and in context with the whole counsel of God. these teachers do teach that you can "speak things into existence" The Scriptures clearly teach that God is the only one who can speak things into existence. Don't tell me that that is not one of these faith teachers fundamental doctrines they teach from thepulpiut, because I have heard them with my own ears on TBN proclaiming those outlandish things from the pulpit. Don't tell me that that doctrine shares in with sound doctrine fundamental from our belief in Christ, because it doesn't. By the way, the quotes I have quoted fro Coppeland and Myers go to the root of what is being taught. What use is it for you to preach Jesus, if He is not the Jesus of the Scriptures you are teaching. The Emerging church preaches a "jesus" and a "love of jesus" but it is not the same Jesus of the Bible, so what makes you think that these seed faith positive confession preachers who I have clearly deleanated their own quotes to you are trully following the Word of God?
RBB:
This is what I previously wrote. I apologize that you did not have the time to read it, and I do proof read what I post prior to posting it.
"RBB wrote:
"Another question. What would you think of a ministry that provides 11 million meals in a year, fully funds and operates 50 orphanages around the world, and had built more than 200 wells and churches. All this with spending 82% of it's total expenses for the year for outreach and program services directed toward reaching people for Christ. All this on top of preaching the gospel as their main ministry."
RBB, I think all those works are well and good. I do not condemn those works. They minster to a whole lot of people. Listen, I came out of a church that would invite prosperity teachers many times, and at least one of them that i could remember with my own ears said they prayed to their daddy in heaven for a leer jet, and that his daddy would give it to him. Now, I haven't heard Beny Hinn say that, or Joyce Myers, but the essence; the bulk, te meat of the seed faith message implies this; otherwise, you would not have these TV evangelists living on better salaries than the people who attend their churches. I would like one person point a finger at a man like Billy Graham. You can't because although his ministry brings in multi millions of dollars a year, i don't see him living in a 7 or a 9 million dollar mansion at the expense of people tey are telling that if they just believe long enough, they will be healed, or they will have more money, or whatever. I've been exposed to this stuff when I was still immature in the faith, and I ca see where it leads. All I'm doing is telling people to be discerning that is all. I want to exhort my brothers and sisters in Christ that just cause they don't drive a mercedes benz, or live in a multi million dollar house on Malibu Beach, etc, that they aren't necessarily outside of God's Will fr teir lives."
Well jc4me, that it is unbiblical is just your opinion. Jesus said in John 15, “that apart from me you can do nothing.” Since I see people’s lives transformed by the message I preach and the life I live then God is working through me and others acknowledge that.
Now, Now NOTW, don’t start flaming people. You do not have to agree with me but you ought to treat your fellow Christians with respect, love and grace. We are not involved in evil since we base what we do on the word of God. It is not heresy. Paul said that the righteous will live by faith (Romans 1:17; Galatians 2:20). It is through faith and patience that we inherit what God has promised (Hebrews 6:12). We will have the things that we believe that we receive as we pray (Mark 11:24). We can do the works that Jesus did and greater because we believe in him (John 14:12). All things are possible to him who believers (Mark 9:23)
NOTW we are all part of the same body; we are all working toward the same goals of spreading the gospel, getting people born again and making disciples. We all have the same command from the Lord Jesus to love one another. Next time you are out evangelizing on the street I will be praying for you!
RBB: I appreciate your comments!
NOTW -
"RBB, even secular pagans can do good for others. These do not exalt Christ. All our works are filthy rags before God. That is why we must hold to the cross, and your idols do not. I have experienced none so blind as those who follow these false teachers--these who exalt self and are anxious for Mammon. You who follow these into the ditch express the same lack of new life in Christ--no matter what you profess with your mouth, there must be a change of heart. You would have your reward here, and you have missed the mark."
Sorry I didn't see this post you wrote earlier....
You say you're a street preacher.......I dread to think what you're preaching. You are accusing without knowledge, being not only judgmental but speaking in a very unChristlike manner. How dare you judge not only these preachers without knowledge, but your brothers and sisters here as well. Shame on you.
"Who are you to judge another man's servant"!
NOTW - No, not near enough said :) You have made some very serious claims against her and claimed personal knowledge that she's one of those that's... "an enemy in the camp", that she's "doing damage to the flock", that she's a "false teacher", that she is "of the flesh" and possible satanic. Time to back those statements up.
Her whole basis is the word of faith heresy. Enough said.
NOTW - Please state what doctrines that Joyce Meyer is teaching - from your first hand experience - that is false.
jc4me - I was responding to your post to me. Please let me know which post I should read to see you say they are doing good things as I must have missed it.
First you say you haven't actually heard them, and then you say they are teaching a particular thing. I can't see how it can be both.
I'm not saying that there has not been some pretty strange stuff in your past, but you really need to find out what someone preaches before accusing them. What if someone said "jc4me used to belong to this place that did holy laughter" and just lumped you in with them, assuming you did it too, and were still doing it? It wouldn't be fair would it?
RBB--these are the worst enemies, these inside the camp. I am a street evangelist, and not one bar-hopping, casino-cruising nonbeliever could do as much damage to the flock as these false teachers. The enemy works from inside the house. And before you call me divisive, know this-- it is those who break away from the doctrines of Christ that are divisive; they are not of the faith.
RBB--why do you suppose that we need to experience evil before we know it is evil? Does one need to attempt suicide before one knows it is wrong? But to appease you, let me repeat that I have heard them, and I have read them, and if you truly check their doctrines, you can see that they are of the flesh at best and at their worst, they are satanic. The Lord never calls us to taste of evil--only to avoid it.
jc4me - I mean this in the nicest way possible. If you could start proof reading and spellchecking your posts I'd really appreciate it. I'm an old woman and trying to decipher what you're writing when you don't, especially at this time of the morning, is difficult.
graceman--you speak things into existence? Are you God? You blasphemer! You pray to the spirit of the air--and you cannot recognize the evil of this! And you, RBB, even secular pagans can do good for others. These do not exalt Christ. All our works are filthy rags before God. That is why we must hold to the cross, and your idols do not. I have experienced none so blind as those who follow these false teachers--these who exalt self and are anxious for Mammon. You who follow these into the ditch express the same lack of new life in Christ--no matter what you profess with your mouth, there must be a change of heart. You would have your reward here, and you have missed the mark.
jc4me - I'm sorry, I must not have made myself clear enough on this subject. No I will not read these kinds of sites.
These websites are venomous, negative, places that feed on the human instinct to find fault. They take wrong information and bounce it back and forth until people such as yourself believe it's fact, just because you've seen it on multiple websites. I know them well...actually I'm the one who originally told you about "apprising ministries" to make it plain that I was aware of them and didn't want to have anything to do with them. I should have known better.
Again I encourage you to find out information for yourself.....not from these kinds of places. If you want to know what Copeland, Meyers or anyone else says please listen to them for yourself. With all the time you spend reading that stuff, you could find out first hand. Could you imagine the Lord judging you on what people who hated you said you did, instead of what you actually did. It wouldn't be fair would it? That is the kind of judgment you're using against these people.
And for goodness sake stop trying to force people (especially me :) to read this stuff...please. There are wonderful websites out there for those that want to fight the good fight against the real enemies of Christianity, I would suggest you start with CARM (www.carm.org) You have so much zeal for fighting for the Lord, please make sure you're fighting the right enemies.
gracean, just cause something works doesn't mean it's biblical. the world has many things that work. the new age has many things that work; yet they are inconsistent with what the Word of God tells us to do. negative and positive confession are a abherration of the Bible and they are a twisting Scriptures. Go d a historical study on te Seed Fait movement and where their beliefs stem from.
RBB:
Did you even read my previous posts? I did say they were doing some good things, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that what they teach is inconsisitent wit the Bible in many ways. An atheist can feed the hungry ad clothe the poor. When you teach the doctrines i quoted for you from Kenneth Copeland ad Joyce Myers, you obviously have an abherrent doctrine. And yes, I was exposed to a charismatic church that was really big on benny hinn and kenneth copeland and joyce myers in my immature Christian days wen I was still a babe in learning. And yes, they did teach a name it and claim it gospel. I also went to an AG Bible college for te first 2 ears of my education, ad while I agree wit most of wat te AG teaches doctrinally with some exceptions to speaking in tongues in a large congregation without interpretation, there were many who atteded the Bible college who were also word faith, seed faith name it and claim it, and there was great division amongst the studets because when abherrent doctrines such as "holy laughter" started creeping in, there was a great divide amongst those who wanted to hear sound doctrine and those who wanted to follow every wind of doctrine. Many went on to accuse those of us who found it odd to just fall back and start laughing in a congregational setting as not being with the flow of the spirit and the such; yet their ac tions clearly were of the flesh. There is nothing to substantiate those doctrines; yet they still are being preached, you have pastors on TV living in 9 million dollar mansions (benny hinn) and using leer jets for their own convenience while on layovers to mission trips.
jc4me- You admit that you haven't heard them say it, but you still condemn them. Does that really sound like what you read in the Bible? Does it sound like what Jesus would say? Actually biblically speaking what Jesus would say is "well done thou good and faithful servant enter into the joy of thy Lord"
It seems to me from reading what you've written, that in your past somewhere, you heard a preacher that was very - make you rich - based, and from that you are willing to condemn anyone who is even accused of it, without actually knowing first what they preach or are about. Tell me how is this different from the person who judges Christianity by the actions of an aberrant pastor. How many of us have been lumped in with those crazy "Baptists" from Kansas who protest soldiers funerals, or a pastor from their youth that abused them, or someone who sees a pastor do something bad and then uses it to paint all Christians with the same brush.
I find it totally disturbing that you can't even admit that this ministry is doing wonderful work. They are feeding 11 million people a year. As someone who has been involved with that kind of ministry, I know what kind of work and money we are talking about. 50 fully funded orphanages, fifty, and you still have to try to say something negative. I never did say who this ministry belonged to, but no matter who it is, I still can't believe your reaction.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason that God has blessed this ministry the way He has, is because they use their talents wisely?
jc4me, People keep talking about ‘lavish lifestyles’. What is the problem with that? They are free do to what the want with their personal income. And how do you define lavish? Maybe you are living a lavish lifestyle too.
What is wrong with negative and positive confessions? Because if you practice positive confession in your life, you will discover that it works. Even secular people recognize that positive confession works. What wrong with speaking something into existence if it works when you do it according to the word of God.
What if these teacher are actually teaching principles that God has given them and that they practice in their own lives. How foolish will you look when you stand before the Lord Jesus and have to explain why you opposed the people he sent out to teach.
NOTW, please go read my previous posts. If what these men and women of God teach was not backed up by scripture then I would listen to them. But it is backed up by scripture and I practice what they teach and it works. And because it works for me and many others, this message continues to spread. If there was noting to it, if would fade away.
Yet you do support them, graceman. You support those who have removed the cross that Jesus tells us to take up lest we be unworthy of him. And do not suppose that some chosen "burden" is your cross. Christ foresaw Calvary Road, where he would be mocked and hated and spit at, and this is the narrow way of all who would lose their lives for his sake. For resurrection life, there must be a death. And which of your teachers points you there? You have not come so close to Christ as to see your true moral deformity. The flesh must die upon the cross, and there double-mindedness ends, for there one sees only the beauty and glory of God in the face of the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. From the vantage point of the cross, the eyes see only Him. Find the rule to live by in Galatians 6, and come away from these self-exhalters. May the Father open your eyes.
jc4me, I ask you not to take my words out of context. I did not say we should ignore those who preach things contrary to the fundamentals of the Christian faith, things like the virgin birth, the trinity, the deity of Christ, salvation by grace through faith, the authority and inspiration of the word of God or the second coming of Christ. Why do you waste time contenting for the faith with your fellow Christians you already agree with you. Go find some one who you says that Jesus is not God or is not the way to heaven, go find someone who says that God does not exist. These men and women of God that we have been discussing agree with you on the fundamentals of faith the Christian faith. To take a few of their quotes and imply a doctrinal position from that is twisting their words. Individuals who twist the words of others demonstrate that they do not really know what the teachers they are talking about really believe. Go listen to their teaching in it context. In no way, shape or form are they trying to undermine the Christian faith and those of us in the word of faith movement would not support them if they were going against the fundamentals of our faith.
RBB:
Here are some quotes from the main guru in the Word Faith/Seed Faith/Positive Confession Movement - Kenneth Copeland Himself. You be the judge if they are heretical or not:
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2005/10/can_you_be_an_e.html
Taken from an article called:
CAN YOU BE AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN AND DENY GOD?
"Copeland speaking of Adam "his body and Adams were the exactly the same size." (Holy bible K. Copeland Reference edition p.45)
K. Copeland speaking of God " A being that stands somewhere around 6-2 , 6-3 that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds or a little better, has a span of 9 inches across (relating to his own hand span) (Spirit, soul and a Body 1985 audio # 01-0601 side 1Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body 1, 1985. )
(http://www.letusreason.org/Wf17.htm)"
This is just one heretical teaching taught by Word Faith teachers who subsequently teach prosperity. I'm sorry RB, I know you like Joyce Myers, but she is a astute studet of Copeland and many of her core beliefs stem from his teachings. And here are some of her quotes taken from the same article:
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2005/10/can_you_be_an_e.html
"G. Richard Fisher and Paul R. Belli of Personal Freedom Outreach inform us:
Meyer can be classified as a Word-Faith teacher and as such has shown an inclination to waffle on major doctrines. In her 1991 booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make, an evangelistic work aimed at nonbelievers, she resounds the Word-Faith view of Christ’s atonement:
“During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there ... no plan was too extreme ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell” (pg. 35, emphasis added).
“God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus ... He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man” (pg. 36, emphasis added)."
As you can see, there is page, book name and direct heretical quotes. The Bible does not teach that latter notion of a "born again Jesus", and neither does it teac Copelands position on Adam being the same as God, or God being a certain height. I say if the Apostles that saw the risen Lord did not have a "special revelation" contrary to the Scriptures, and then tell about it, then why shouldKennet Copeland have one? I tell you RBB, if it doesn't line up in Scripture, then I don't want to have anything to do with it. The Word tells us to contend earnestly for the faith. Look at Jude 3.
Until we speak again, I bid you a good night. The Lord Bless You and open your eyes to this deception.
RBB wrote:
"Another question. What would you think of a ministry that provides 11 million meals in a year, fully funds and operates 50 orphanages around the world, and had built more than 200 wells and churches. All this with spending 82% of it's total expenses for the year for outreach and program services directed toward reaching people for Christ. All this on top of preaching the gospel as their main ministry."
RBB, I think all those works are well and good. I do not condemn those works. They minster to a whole lot of people. Listen, I came out of a church that would invite prosperity teachers many times, and at least one of them that i could remember with my own ears said they prayed to their daddy in heaven for a leer jet, and that his daddy would give it to him. Now, I haven't heard Beny Hinn say that, or Joyce Myers, but the essence; the bulk, te meat of the seed faith message implies this; otherwise, you would not have these TV evangelists living on better salaries than the people who attend their churches. I would like one person point a finger at a man like Billy Graham. You can't because although his ministry brings in multi millions of dollars a year, i don't see him living in a 7 or a 9 million dollar mansion at the expense of people tey are telling that if they just believe long enough, they will be healed, or they will have more money, or whatever. I've been exposed to this stuff when I was still immature in the faith, and I ca see where it leads. All I'm doing is telling people to be discerning that is all. I want to exhort my brothers and sisters in Christ that just cause they don't drive a mercedes benz, or live in a multi million dollar house on Malibu Beach, etc, that they aren't necessarily outside of God's Will fr teir lives.
Another question. What would you think of a ministry that provides 11 million meals in a year, fully funds and operates 50 orphanages around the world, and had built more than 200 wells and churches. All this with spending 82% of it's total expenses for the year for outreach and program services directed toward reaching people for Christ. All this on top of preaching the gospel as their main ministry.
Ok, so you think it's ok to pray for your financial needs, but not for a preacher to tell you that God will take care of them?
Wouldn't that conflict though with Jesus telling the soldiers to be content with his pay?
I do get your point about greed, but as yet I've not heard any of the preachers mentioned in these articles tell anyone to pray for a Lear jet or things like it that would be considered "greeds", have you? Simply that God will take care of their needs as you suggested.
RBB wrote:
"I would like to ask a simple question. How many people posting here have ever prayed to God for help with a monetary issue. That would be; for a job when unemployed (or a better job when finances were tight), or help with a business, or for the courage to ask for a raise, or help concerning money in any way? I ask because it came up in connection to the prosperity issue last night at a Bible class."
I think praying for the Lord's help including, but not limited to our finances, jobs, marriages, families is a completely biblical thing; the Bible exhorts us to pray without ceasing. God says in His Word that he would supply all our need. However, this is not to say that all our "greeds" will be satisfied. This does not mean that if I pray for a leer jet, my daddy in heaven will give it to me as many in the word faith movement seem to imply in their teachings when they name and claim what they want.
Graceman wrote:
"jc4me, but what if you are wrong in pointing out what you think is an error? You are not the final authority, God is. It is better to say you disagree rather than call a brother a heretic over some doctrine that is not fundamental to our faith."
Graceman, you are wrong in thinking that we should not pint out error in fundamental doctrines that are being distorted. This is why I exhorted you to go read the Book of Jude, but I will also exhort you to read the books of 1 and 2 Timothy, 1 and 2 Peter, 1,2,and 3 John, and the Book of Titus as well. They all have something to say about the end times. They all have something to say one way or another about contending earnestly for the faith passed on from the Apostles, etc. This is why we as the church need to keep the leaven out. I am not wrong in pointing out that prosperity teachers using their funds to live out lavish lifestyles that most in the Body of Christ can't afford. I am also not wrong in pointing out that many of these proseperity teachers teach "negative confession" and "positive confession". I am also not wrong in pointing out that we as mere men don't have the power to "speak something into existence" as some of these teachers have professed from their pulpits. I am also not wrong in exhorting others to stay away from the love of money. Money in and of itself is not wrong. It accomplishes much, but the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil the Word says. When there are some of these teachers buying 7-8 million dollar mansions, using their "missionary leer jets with all the commodities of a mansion" to have layovers on tropical islands on their way to do pulpit ministry in other parts of the globe and staying in the highest priced hotel rooms that money can buy, this brings up the question: If God really wants allbelievers to prosper financially here on earth, then why did the Apostles depend on others to keep them thriving in the ministry and they went about from place to place preaching and teaching the truth, and were thrown in jail, and persecuted for their faith, etc? What about Jesus? The Bible declares that the Son of Man did not even have a place to lay his head. What do you say about those Bible teachers and Pastors who go without food, and shelter in 3rd world countries who also preach the Gospel, and are content in their state. Are they not faithfully executing what the Lord has entrusted to them? From the teachings of some on these prosperity pulpits, it is implied that other Christians who don't propser financially are either not faithful, don't have enough faith, or are in sin, and this is not the case. These seed faith teachers are the ones who are twisting Scriptures, and although I would not doubt that some people do come to Christ under their ministries, then they are swayed away by the other doctrines taught; thereby confusing the faith of many.
I would like to ask a simple question. How many people posting here have ever prayed to God for help with a monetary issue. That would be; for a job when unemployed (or a better job when finances were tight), or help with a business, or for the courage to ask for a raise, or help concerning money in any way? I ask because it came up in connection to the prosperity issue last night at a Bible class.
jc4me, I agree that we should be skeptical with those who preach the "prosperity Doctrine". I feel that god does and can bless us, but we shouldn't expect it. Also, the blessing that god has given to us, may not be financial proseperity, but things of the spirit like love, peace, joy, and hope. I think so many people are confused about what exactly financial prosperity means. Instead of looking at what they don't have for example: a mansion, a successful career, a new car, they should stop a think about what they do have and how much more fortunate we are to be living in country built on freedom. A lot of third world countries are in much more need than we are. They have to worry about getting food on a day to day basis. So I think that we are truly blessed. My mother use to tell me : "don't cry about having no shoes, because some men have no feet".
A person in God and Christ should never have anything to hide. We are to be the books people read in this world. If they don't have anything to hide, ship the information and let the government try and find anything.
jc4me, but what if you are wrong in pointing out what you think is an error? You are not the final authority, God is. It is better to say you disagree rather than call a brother a heretic over some doctrine that is not fundamental to our faith.
Graceman wrote:
"We Christians ought to not let any unwholesome words come out of our mouths (Ephesians 4:29)."
I agree with the Scripture, although you're taking it out of context. The pointing out of error in doctrine coming from those who profess to preach the Gospel in context while they clearly teach some things that are out of Biblical context is not letting unwholsome talk come out of our mouths. It is simply pointing at something that does not align itself with Scripture. There is a difference.
FullGospel - Have you ever listened to Benny Hinn, or watched him?
RBB:
You dd not offend me, and I do depend on Scripture. This is why I as well as others who disagree with"prosperity doctrine" teachers post here.
GraceMan:
I see what your saying. Please go read the Book of Jude.
Thanks, and blessings to you.
jc4me, I have read lots of so called discernment web sites. Discernment does not mean to criticize, it means to prove, test or put into practice what has been presented and see if it works. Some people when they listen to the word of God being preached will automatically dismiss anything that is not in line with what they have previous been taught. If they have been taught error, they continue to believe error. They are not open to let the Holy Spirit guide them into all truth. I find that discernment web sites are bias and closed minded in their presentations. They taken things out of context and they follow the world’s standards rather than God’s standards.
Have you ever noticed that those who put following Jesus’ command to love one another as their highest priority never create web sites denouncing their fellow Christians? And you never hear them in public saying derogatory things about other preachers. Paul says in Romans 13:8, “Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law,” NASV. Notice is does not say that denouncing those who teaching things different than what we teach fulfills the law, but rather demonstrating God’s love fulfills the law. Love always believes the best about others. God will deal with those put out false doctrine; 1 Peter 2:1 says that they will, “bringing swift destruction on themselves,” NIV. We Christians ought to not let any unwholesome words come out of our mouths (Ephesians 4:29).
And I am a real believer in confessing the word of God. I am writing a book on this subject.
I think that we should support our brothers and sisters within Christianity. Joyce, Benny, Creflo, they have gifts we don't have. Maybe if we would have been in their positions the outcome would have even been worse.
How about if we pray for them, support that which is good, and let the law work its due process? When one suffers, we all suffer, 1 Cor. 12:26 says that, I believe. Let's not be the ones doing the judging, OK?
jc4me - You seem to be confusing defending someone when they are attacked, with repeatedly trying to force someone who isn't interested into going to the "discernment" websites you seem to like so much. Even when people politely tell you they don't have any interest, you just keep pushing, or even go so far as quoting them at length to try to get them to read what you want. I'm sorry if my way of putting it offended you.
I would still encourage you to depend on scripture and on real experience, such as actual personal knowledge, rather than these websites to decide what you believe. As you are so fond of quoting, it's what the Bereans would do.
Graceman, I wanted to say this to you the other day, but I kinda forgot. I trully wish you well in spreading the Gospel of our Lord Jesus to those that you minister to. Me and my wife just recently began supporting a missions organization called Gospel for Asia, and we are in awe with what the Lord is doing in the 10/40 window thru the native missionaries, pastors, evangelists and the training in the Bible College. You should check them out some time.
Hey, basically all I'm saying to you is please, stay in sound doctrine. I don't know who you get your theology from, but just stick to the Whole Counsel of God. Ok bro. I wish you well, and may the Lord bless His work thru you.
RBB wrote:
"jc4me - Still trying to shove those same websites on people I see"
RBB, I'm not trying to shove anything on anyone, much less than you shoving Joyce Myers on people.
Graceman wrote:
"jc4me, my research is based on scripture, and I do not rely on hearsay or false statements on web sites. I do not let the traditions of men invalidate the word of God.
“He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?” Romans 8:32 NIV"
Graceman, what makes you think that recording a pastor or a teacher's own words, quoting their books, or replaying a sermon and what they say is heresay, and false statements on websites?
Do you not know that there are actually Christians on this planet who love to search out the Scriptures ad test the spirits to see if they are of God? What makes you think that the websites I listed are false statements? Have you even researched the info? NO probably not, because you probably think it's "negative confession".
All the websites i listed give the cold hard facts. Whether or not there has been a public repentance from the word faith positive confession teachers or not, I do not know. That would be something to look into, but I go by what they have taught, what they are teaching, and whether there has been any repentance on their parts for teaching things that are extrabiblical in nature, or stretchig the Truth of the Word for their own reasons. I used to attend a charismatic word faith positive confession/name it and claim it church over ten years ago, and when i started seeing things in the Scriptures that contradicted what these "teachers" were teaching, I left it. I now attend a church where the Word of God is taught in context cover to cover, book by book, chapter by chapter, precept upon precept. We believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as long as things are done in order; not 20 people all speaking in an unknown tongue with no interpretation, or people falling back laughing and barking like dogs and making all sorts of weird noises, or seing "gold" falling from the ceiling. When any gift is excercisd such as speaking in an unknown tongue, then there needs to be an interpretation, and no more than 2 or three at any given time. Also, we believe in word of knowlede, and word of prophecy (not the propetic office). We weigh everything in context of the Scriptures, and see if indeed it is the work of the flesh, the work of the Holy Spirit, or a delusion of the enemy.
So please don't call discernment heresay.
to graceman - making $124 million a year, an oceanfront home & a $23,000 marble topped comode?
GraceMan - Amen!
jc4me - Still trying to shove those same websites on people I see.
I'd suggest that those who have so much negative to say about Joyce Meyer look at the article on this site, which has a letter from and about her ministry and what they are doing with the money.
jc4me, my research is based on scripture, and I do not rely on hearsay or false statements on web sites. I do not let the traditions of men invalidate the word of God.
“He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?” Romans 8:32 NIV
Graceman, in case you forgopt, or didn't read the links, These are reputable apologetics ministries that have exposed the false doctrines of the name it and claim it people.
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2005/10/can_you_be_an_e.html
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17c..htm
Look them up and then tell me what you find.
Graceman:
Have you even bothered looking into the links I gave you? Because by the way you responded to me, it seemed like you really didn't care about the facts quoted about many of the things these false teachers teach. These are quotes taken from their own literature, or from pulpit sermons where they have clearly come out teaching a doctrine that is contrary to the whole of Scripture. Please take the time to look into the links, and then respond to me once you conduct your research. I will pray that the Lord will give you discerment on this issue. Again, I am not against the Lord blessing you in the mission field, whether foreign or home missions when you give financially. I am howver, against many of the aberrhant teachings these individuals teach. Can you tell me if Robert Tilton is a Faith/Word Faith Teacher?
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The Disciples Knew how to Deliver the Lord's (King's) Treasury!
We as individuals, and the church, must understand that we serve a King. Not only a King but the "King of Kings." God put the picture of the King, and the Kingdom of the King in scripture, not only because that is the way it is, but because we as Christians need to see the picture it presents to us.
The disciples believed Jesus was their King, their prophesied King of Kings. Can you imagine being with and serving the King of Kings? There is something about being around a king, a reverence, a respect for the office that just seems to exist no matter who it is, but this is true only to those who know this person as a king. I can tell you, that when things are in right order, you do nothing to distract from a King, and neither does His wife (the church, the Bride).
If you were a servant, a liaison to a King, how would you act and handle His business? If you were told by the King to deliver a car, or money to someone for him, what would you say when you delivered it? You would say, "The King sent this to you" or, "The King said to give this to you." If you just gave it, you would get the credit and not the King. Jesus gave to the poor all the time and when a disciple delivered this wealth to a widow, the poor, or the oppressed, they would say, "The Lord said to give this to you." They gave the Lord's wealth in His name because they believed He was a King. If you, or a church, uses the King's treasury in your/its own name, who gets the credit? You, or the church, not the King you're supposed to be serving.
Do you want to change lives? Does your church want to change lives? Well you can't, and neither can the church! Jesus is the true life changer and you (the church) can only open the door for Jesus to really change lives, by letting Him become one-on-one with that person. Taking His wealth to them, in His name, allows this to happen! It's like introducing them to Jesus, face to face, and it doesn't matter where they are, what they are doing, or what their relationship is with the Lord at the time. Scripture says Jesus is the author and finisher of people's faith, not the church, not you or me. Delivering the Lord's treasury in His name lets the Lord work on that person's faith.
Her priests teach for pay, and her prophets divine for money. Yet they lean on the Lord, and say, "Is not the Lord among us?" Micah 3:11. They do not know nor understand; for He has shut their eyes so they cannot see, and their hearts, so they cannot understand. Isaiah 44:18. Graceman, just repeat after those whom you would follow into the ditch--"Doctrine-schmocktrine, let God figure all that out!"
kaishinden79, concerning your complaint about the alleged lavish life styles: how these ministers spend their personal income is really none of your business just like it is none of my business how you spend your personal income. As for the purchase of planes and jets these are ministry tools. Those who used them do lots of traveling in order to preach the gospel in different cities across the nation and in countries around the world. Concerning the $23,000 bathroom, that is not a correct figure; please let the facts come out first before you condemn.
jc4me, you say “but I can tell you that the seed faith/word faith doctrines are false.” But I can tell you they are true. I have been debt free since 1998 and I have been supporting myself on the mission field since 1999. It is apparent in the post that you know very little about what these ministers teach or about how they conduct themselves.
NOTW, I never said anything about “feeling good”. Where did you get that? I spoke earlier about how God rewards those who obey him with their finances. Do you not agree that it is important to obey God’s direction in one’s life? You say, “No one is saved outside of Christ.” But Jesus said in John 15, that apart from him we can do nothing. It appears that these men and women of God are obviously doing something through their preaching and teaching; they are obeying Christ. “Recognize them by their fruit. And fruit is more than deeds--it is also doctrine…” No sorry, their fruit is their character and the results of their work. Are lives of people transformed by the message they preach? YES! Are they ministering to the needs of those who are suffering? YES! Are they lawbreakers convicted in a court of law for misusing funds? NO! You say, “These apostates are not Christian…,” sorry, but each one has a testimony of how they came to Christ.
No matter what you guys say about these men and women of God, the message they preach will continue to spread. If you do not believe what they teach, this is alright. But you guys should really show more of God’s love and grace to those you disagree with. Then the world will know we are God’s children by our love.
Mark 11:20-25 as used by Graceman indicates we can have what we have the faith for, prosperity. If a person chooses to believe Jesus said this with the intentions of giving us permission to have anything we want, I believe that person follows a potentially spiritually self damming way of thinking. There are several other passages in scripture where the prosperity gospel points to in order to give legitimacy to their teachings as valid. Do I believe God will give a person the desires of his heart? Yes, to the very point of self destruction and damnation. Is that fair of God? Yes. The rich young ruler had a choice to make and he chose. Matthew 19:22 & 23. God’s Word does offer us provision to gain great wealth…at a price. Matthew 6:19-21 states treasure here will be eaten and corrode along with revealing where a person’s heart is. Can a wealthy person enter Heaven? Yes but it will be hard. How hard? Matthew 7:13 &14 is a general section of scripture to the average Joe seeking redemption describing the narrowness of the way. Many will look for this way and can’t find it who live normal lives…add wealth to make it harder as Jesus stated and I believe it extremely unlikely there will be any Bentley’s pulling up to the Pearly Gates. Here is, to me the key the prosperity gospel ignores: Matthew 19:29 “And everyone WHO HAS LEFT houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, FOR MY NAMES SAKE, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.” There is not one so called preacher today who has left all as is “required” by scripture. Narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, Matthew 7:14. Many will find it and seek to enter and not be able to, Luke 13:24. Why would a “loving and so gentle” God put in his Word that many would seek to enter and not be able? Because a holy, spotless, righteous, faith filled life is one with no thought of itself or what it can own and in complete submission being the bond servant to the One who purchased and redeemed us from certain death. By America’s standard of living my wife and I are Middle America. In complete honesty, giving up all we have worked for the past 30 years would be hard if the Holy Spirit said, “leave all for me and go where I will send you”. I like to believe I would but I don’t know. If I (an average Joe Christian) think this way, what of those who have gained such great wealth? I do not trust in the prosperity gospel and pray for his strength to follow where he leads to endure, strive and leave all should he require it. Our focus is to be “our” walk, and “our” study of his Word to “know” his truth in order to discern and cast from us the wolves in our midst.
And by the way, personally I could care less about their financial lives. The heresy inherent in their teachings--all smooth things flattering to the flesh--should be more than obvious to any true born again believer. These do not belong to the Body of Christ. After warning us of false prophets, Christ Jesus said that not all who call out "Lord, Lord" would see the kingdom of heaven. He was speaking of those who thought they were following Him, yes? The unbeliever would never call Him "Lord". So these He spoke of are inside the church! How do we recognize them? By their fruit. And fruit is more than deeds--it is also doctrine, especially for those who propose to teach. Word of faith teaches the deification of man. And they blaspheme the Holy Spirit by reducing Him to a "force" that can be manipulated. The list of their heresies is long--and all tickle the ears of selfish and sinful man. These are not gleanings from the net. I have listened to them, I have read their works--all that I could stomach. These apostates are not Christian, and their followers are not clinging to the Cross of Christ Jesus. They have made idols of worldly men, who hand out candy to the lost on their way to hell. Come away! Follow Christ away into the wilderness, and crucify the flesh with its passions and desires--the way is the Cross and there is no other way.
graceman--you have been deceived. I pray for all of you who have been led away from the Cross by these blind guides. Just because it feels good to the flesh, just because it looks successful to the world, does not make it right--as a matter of fact, these things may prove how wrongful these teachings are. These belly preachers have not strayed on minor points of doctrine. No one is saved outside of Christ. The flesh must end at the Cross. May He by any means open the eyes of the western bride.
Oh, and i forgot one more. here it is.
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/
I exhort in brotherly love, and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that Graceman, and anyone else interested in finding out some of the outlandish statements made by many in this word faith teaching please go here:
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2005/10/can_you_be_an_e.html
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith.html
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17c..htm
http://www.gospelhour.net/2104.html
I hope these links will help many on this sight understand why we as born again evangelical Christians need to contend earnestly for the faith. I exhort each and everyone of you in love to go do some research on your own. Some of the statements made by these prosperity teachers contradict the Scriptures they "claim" to be teaching. Don't take my word for it. Do the research yourself.
Graceman, my premise is that none of the Apostles lived lavish lifestyles, and taught a message that is primarily geared towards "what can I get from God". In the Gospels we are exhorted to die to ourselves daily, ick up our crosses and folloow Christ. The Apostle Paul said that all things were lawful to him, but not all things were beneficial. Many of these televangelists preach a false gospel; I'm sorry sir, but if you look at the core doctrines taught (not the ones on their webpages or church directory's) but the ones taught in front of the sheep have a hint of error to them, and this is what I object to. In the Epistles, we are exhorted to stay in Sound Doctrine. Sound Doctrine, is when te Whole Cunsel of God is preached; not twisted to get a point across, or not watering down the Scriptures like others in the seeker-sensitive and post modern emerging church do, but we as the Body of Christ are exhorted to stay away from those who call themselves believers, but are preaing heresy. I do not know al these proseprity teachers lives behind the scenes, but I can tell you that the seed faith/word faith doctrines are false. They have a hint of truth to them, but just enough poison and distortion to lead people astray. With regard to giving monetarily to God out of a pure heart and God blessing you, yes I agree with that, but that is not the only part to the Gospel of Christ, and when the only thing I hear from the mouths of many of these televangelists including the personal testimony from a "seed faith charismatic" church I used to go to, and personally witnessed, is God gave me a jet air plane, or I want a jet airplane, because God is my daddy, and that type of superficial, selfish gospel is being taught, and the when you see the lavish vacation layovers done on ministry paid mission trips in the most expensive hotels, and then 8-10 million dollar mansions on the beach as "perks" to the minister? Come on, Jesus Christ, the Son of God humbled himself and did not even have a place to lay his head, and yet these guys are better? NO, the servant is not greater than the master. These lavish liestyles being exposed is just proof that the Body of Christ did not expose it to the ministers in hopes of them repenting and stop living their extravagant lifestyles prior to the secular media and the US Senate probing these issues on their own. If the Body of Christ would take care of the prosperity teachers such as the Robert Tiltons in the world, then we wouldn't have to worry about the work of God being blasphemed among the gentiles.
Graceman - I agree with that there is nothing wrong in prosperity. But the issues here are LAVISH SPENDING. is buying a leary jet, rolls royce part of spreading the gospel? there are other christians who spread the gospel without the leary jets or rolls royces or even a $10million dollar home. And if the gospel is free, then where in the bible did jesus charge the people any fee when he preach the beatitude or healed the sick. And another thing, pastors & tele evangelist are so against the 'self'. they consider it sin, pride arrogance but when they are rebuked, they would defend them'selves' bec they consider themselves as human beings. Why would they condemn something that they consider part of themselves. I find that hypocritical to condemn the self, yet they recognize themselves as self, persons or the dreaded I by purchasing a lear jet, rolls royce or a $10 miilion dollar home. I bet christ did not go to a$23,000 bathroom to relieve himself.
PDF, Wow, finally a believer who recognizes that these preachers are part of Christ body! But why do you make assumptions with so little knowledge about the ministries of these men and women of God. If you want to make a righteous judgment, get all the facts first. As I read the different posts condemning prosperity it is easy for individuals like myself who are involved with these ministries to see that these critics do not have much knowledge much about what these ministries are doing across the world. Did you know that when these men and women of God got started they had nothing? But over the years as they preached and taught the word they grew. They received finical support from those who were blessed by their teaching; from those who found it reliable and true. Did you know that ministries such as these have a board of directors that set policies and oversee that handling of finances? We believers are not so easily taken in as many suggest, after all we have the Holy Spirit as our guide.
jc4me, Hi! I’m graceman. I believe that we Christians ought to show the same grace toward our fellow believers that God the Father shows toward us. If we do not agree on every point of doctrine, other than what is fundamental to the Christian faith, then that is alright and I still value you as a fellow Christian and will not berate you for your differences. Now you call seed faith/word faith/ name it and claim it prosperity gospels a heresy, but that just your opinion. Just because you do not believe it does not make it true. Others, like myself can testify that it does work. It based on scripture. Just read for example Mark 11:20-25 and Mark 4:26-29. But if you do not accept that teaching, you are free to believe as you choose.
You say that preachers on TBN are peddling the Word of God for financial gain, but really no one is forced to send in a contribution or buy a tape. Whatever money they receive is given voluntarily. If you attend a believers’ convention, it is free and open to the public. No one is required to give an offering if they do not wish to. Besides prosperity they teach on many other topics that none of the critics ever say anything about, such as overcoming fear, walking in love toward our fellow believers, facing opposition and overcoming sin in our lives.
jc4me, if you think that these ministers are not move by the plight of those who are living in poverty or suffering for their faith then you do not know what projects they are involved with and the ministries around the world that they support. They simply do not collect money to spend on their personal comfort.
Finally, like others you miss-characterize the message of prosperity. It is not about giving to a particular ministry but rather obeying God as he directs one’s giving. I give as God instructs and he blesses me for my obedience. I tell you it works. It is not extrabiblical; it in the Bible.
Jesus does live in extravagance, there are no shacks in heaven. In Jesus's time there were no expensive luxury cars, but Jesus did ride a donkey. It was the "Rolls Royce" of that day - the best means of transportation they had.
Clarification: not just "those" preachers are to serve the Body but ALL preachers who are called to Christ's service .... which includes yours truly.....
I wanted to make a clarification on one point: yes, the CP article did read that Mr. Dollar's congregation did donate an expensive luxury car, a poor stewardship decision, but one the congregation did nonetheless.
My concern is not so much the poor choices that are being made by obvious flaunting of extreme financial wealth, it is how it looks to others, particuarly non-Christians. Each one of us who are born-again (by confessing with the mouth and believing in the heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is our Lord and Savior) are His ambassadors on earth. Our witnesses, by action and behavior, represents Christ at all times. Would He live in such extravagance?
I, as a believer, have EVERY right to hold these leaders accountable because we are all of one Body, which Christ is the Head. One wrong decision by my skin cells, for instance, WILL affect my entire body. It only takes a few "rouge" cells in the body for cancer to develop and spread --thus destroying the whole physical body without intervention.
These preachers are subject to the body -- they are not the Head, which is Christ. They are serving the body as politicians are serve the people. We have every right to hold politicians accountable (and it is a matter of public record their salaries, benefits, all money that has been donated, etc.) NO different for these preachers. They are of service to the body, NOT the other way around.
Many Born again Christians on this board express disdain for this name it and claim it "seed faith" theology because it is a false doctrine. They make a doctrine out of one Biblical Scripture verse, a principle, or promise, and then never leave that point. They don't expound on the whole context and heart of the Scriptures so people will grow in their faith. Rather than teaching the whole counsel of God, they teach that if you give to their ministry, then God will multiply it 100 fold. They peddle God's Word for gain, and this is not what God calls teachers of the Word to do. It is definitely a heretical teaching that is extrabiblical and for one to say that disdain for this false doctrine and abheration of the Truth is a comparison of Christians persecuting other Christians as you implied on your post is distorting the issue.
Yes, we as believers should be united in sound doctrine; not on all these other false doctrines including name it and clai it, and blab it and grab it theology that seem to pop up everywhere in Christian bookstores, on TBN, etc with a secular humanistic, and seeker friendly tone to them to tickle the hearers and readers ears.
God does not promise everyone to be rich here on earth. He has however promised us a relationship with Him, He has also promised that He would supply all of our need (not our greed) if we should put our total faith and confidence in His One and Only Son Jesus Christ. He promised that He would go and prepare a place for us and that we (who have given our lives to Christ) would spend eternity worshipping Him and fellowshipping with HIm.
We need to be like the Bereans who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what is being taught to is biblically true.
ifeelfine:
For once I agree with what you said on a post.
The same heresy follows those in the seed faith/word faith/ name it and claim it prosperity gospels who say that we, as mere humans can speak things into existence, as if we're God. NO, that is nonsense, we are the creation, and GOD is the CREATOR. He is the only one who can speak things into existence. He alone spoke the universe and the earth into existence. He and He alone holds the power to life and death. He and He alone controls where we are born, and the boundaries of our dwelling. Who am I that God is mindful of me? Many on the seed faith TBN pulpit are peddling the Word of God for financial gain, and they will not have to answer to the Senate Finance Committee, but to God. I have been in a church service where a so called "annointed" faith teacher said that God told him that there was someone in the audience who had a stomach issue, and that God had told him not to be alarmed at what he was about to do, but that he was supposed to slap her in the stomach to cast that sickness out of her. To my amazement, the woman stood there while the man slapped her in the stomach, and she just kinda looked like she was in pain after the fact. The same man said that he wanted a jet airplane, and that God was his daddy, and if he asked his daddy for the jet airplane, that God would give it to him. He stood there on the pulpit of the curch i was visiting boasting about how God had gien him a house on the side of a mountain or a hill, and that people would drive by and look at the preacher's house with the Miami Palms, and he would smile, and say, daddy gave it to me. Now where in the Gospels or the Epistles did you see any of the Apostles asking for material waealth or condonong tht wealth as a condition of having much faith? Jesus Crist the Son of God did not have a place to lay his head. Church history and Bible historians show that all of the Apostles were martyred for their faith and witness of Christ with the exception of John who was stuck in a pot of boiling oil, but he survived. Where's the prosperity gospel here? Did not these prescious saints love God and have perhaps more faith than us, and trully live out the Christian life in holiness ad reverence? Yes they did, and they gave up evrything even to the death. God does not call everyone to die a martyrs death, but He does not promise everyone problemless life filled with Rolls Royces, and Leer Jets. What do these Prosperity Evangelists have to say to the home missionaries in India and other parts of the 10/40 window who go without food sometimes for days. What we should be is thankful and eternally grateful, because our true reward is in heaven. And Christ died and rose from the dead to save us wretched sinners from eternal seperation from God in hell. I can only hope that those who have peddled God's Word for financial gain would repent and turn from what they are doing.
PDF, thank you for your comment. It seems that you are not well informed. Pastor Dollar did not buy a Bentley, it was given to him by his congregation. So if you have a beef about that, you should take if up with them. But if you do not contribute any of your money to one of this people who preach prosperity, what do you have to complain about? It is people like myself who support such individuals who have the right to hold them accountable. If we do not like what they do with the money their ministries receive then we can stop the flow. And what these preachers do with their personal income is really not anybodies business, just like it is none of my business what you do with your income.
Look, there are successful CEO, professional athletes and celebrates and no one ever complains about compensation that they receive. Why should people get upset when one of God’s people does well financially? Perhaps, it is due to envy.
ifeelfine72, If you look closely, you will discover that these ministries are very much involved in ministering to need people all over the world.
graceman: IF your argument is true, then why don't these preachers refuse to live in such luxury? Why drive a Bentley or a Rolls Royce when a Lexus or Saturn will do? NO PREACHER who is a disciple of Christ would allow himself or herself to live in such OBVIOUS extravagance and excess while there are members of their congregation who are no doubt trying to pay their bills. Those preachers need to "enable" their members by employing them within their church (with a liveable wage PLUS benefits) and generously giving to all in need.
The difference between a Rolls Royce and a Lexus: approx. $230,000. That ALONE can employ FIVE people IN the congregation who are unemployed with a salary of $46,000. We haven't even started about the many multimillion houses!!
Yes, the Lord desires to prosper us in each area of our lives, not to live filthy rich!
Oglefam: AMEN and AMEN!! There will be NO group judgements before Christ -- or your beloved pastor, "shepherd" or "leader" standing in your stead OR on your behalf. Each one of us will have to speak on our behalf!
Graceman - I didn't realize it cost money to preach the gospel. It does cost money to buy expensive cars and lavish homes . . . but it costs a lot less to feed the poor and minister to the least amongst us.
It seems that those who are speaking against prosperity always miss-characterize it as only about accumulating wealth when really it is about God prospering his people in every area of their lives: spiritually, physically and financially. The purpose of financial prosperity is to pay for the preaching of the gospel across the globe and to enable us Christians to bless to others. The devil, of course, does not like any of this; he raises up individuals who label those preaching prosperity as greedy, self-serving con artist. Yet, this will not stop God and his people from fulfilling God’s purpose on the earth.
The crux of this issue has to be placed where it belongs...until God's people study his Word as those in Berea did daily to KNOW the one teaching them is teaching the truth, wolves will continue to prostitute and twist the gospel for their purpose because of believers lack of desire. We, for the most part, have become lazy disciples depending on others to feed us God's Word when we are to know and hide it's truths in our hearts. Finding and walking the narrow way can NOT be done simply by adhering to the teaching of God's Word from a man. It is an individual walk.
RBB
I completely agree with big german.
Do not confuse condemnation with proper judgement.
We must always hold our Spiritual leaders accountable. They are the teachers of the flock, your brothers and sisters. We should be on top of these things long before the secular world even catches a wind of it.
And when we see the wrong, we should be as angry as Christ was in the Temple. Contrary to what some churches may teach, I think God would smile to see us get that angry about sin in our own midst.
What true christian ministry would fear having their operations out in the light?We are to lead exemplory lives so that even the heathen knows that we are from God.How does this make the Kingdom look to unbelievers?Its time for the true gospel to be preached,not plant your seed and Jesus will make you rich!!You can't let your light shine if you're worried who might try to see by it.
As usual it's refreshing to see my brothers and sisters in Christ ready and willing to condemn before there is any proof. Not one willing to say anything nice, even of those that turned in all their information to this witch hunt on time?
I have to wonder...when standing in the presence of our Lord at the Judgment Seat, are you going to want this kind of judgment for yourselves?
Mat 21:10 When he came into Jerusalem, the whole city was trembling with excitement. The people were asking, "Who is this?"
Mat 21:11 The crowds kept saying, "This is the prophet Jesus, the man from Nazareth in Galilee."
Mat 21:12 Then Jesus went into the temple, threw out all who were selling and buying in the temple, and overturned the moneychangers' tables and the chairs of those who sold doves.
Mat 21:13 He told them, "It is written, 'My house is to be called a house of prayer,' but you are turning it into a hideout for bandits!
Mat 21:10 And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
Mat 21:11 And the crowd said, This is Jesus the prophet, from Nazareth of Galilee.
Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God and cast out all those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and the seats of those who sold doves.
Mat 21:13 And He said to them, It is written, "My house shall be called the house of prayer"; but you have made it a den of thieves.
May our eyes be open to see the Bandits and Thieves, and may our hearts be just as angry in throwing them out.
ifeelfine72 - I don't find it quite as surprising that someone would object to your post. There are people, yes, even here in the Forums, that do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, so perhaps they merely objected on those grounds. It also seems likely to me that the objection came from someone who is caught up in the prosperity movement, as this article would surely attract that type of individual.
Of course, the Bible says it best: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." - 1 Corinthians 1:18
"Texas-based faith “healer” Benny Hinn has asked for more time to respond. A meeting with Hinn's attorneys is set for Friday, Grassley's office said."
Why does he need more time? What's he hiding? Didn't Saddam Hussein say the same thing when the US wanted to check out his alleged WMD storage places?
The government shouldn't need to get subpenas in order to see the books of an organization that is supposedly non-profit in the name of Christ. Grassley has the right to see if the execs are paid lavishly. Hate to tell people that we are subject to the authorities, esp. when we make agreements with them (anyone remember the Gibeonites and Saul?).
Grace and Peace,
Jim
I quote seven Bible verses directly from the mouth of Christ on a subject nearest and dearest to him and someone gives me a thumbs down? I don't get that at all.
Flagged as inappropriate. show NEW BOOK - SNAKES IN THEPULPIT WWW.SNAKESINTHEPULPIT.COM EXPOSES CREFLO DOLLAR, JOEL OSTEEN,EDDIE LONG, JOEL OSTEEN WWW.REUBENARMSTRONGSHOW.COM hide
Although I am very critical of Joyce Meyers and her ilk, I see this move by Grassley as an exercise to discredit Christianity. Meyers, Dollar, Robison etc. are greedy individuals who don't care about how their lifestyles appear to non-believers. This has opened the door for the enemy (in this case through Grassley) to bring disrepute to our Church.
Actually, Grassley is overstepping his boundary by requesting financial statements from the Church. He has no right meddling in Church business as they need only adhere to requests from the IRS.
On the flipside, tele-evangialists should live their lives and conduct their ministries in a way that is above criticism.
It's clear that none of these false teachers know the word, because if they did they would know what GOD says about money. God says in HIS WORD: Mat 6:24 ¶ No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Luk 16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true [riches]?
* Mam·mon (mām'ən)
Bible Riches, avarice, and worldly gain personified as a false god in the New Testament.
often mammon Material wealth regarded as having an evil influence.
Matthew 19:16, 21-26
Luke 4:18
Luke 16:13-15
Mark 10:17-27
Luke 12:15-21
Luke 16:20-31
Matthew 25:31-46
Does any of this sound like a prosperity gospel to any of you?
I think it's especially sad that these ministries loved their lavish lifestyle so much that they justify all the spending and throw out "privacy" issues in order to keep things under the radar. The bottom line is these ministries and others not mentioned have been asked by CHRISTIAN watchdog groups for years to show some accountability, to leave their books more open to scrutiny, and they have all stubbornly refused. It's very sad that the government, which the Bible says God established, has had to step in. I'd rather put food in an empty child's stomach. That's the Gospel in action. I'm just wondering why Joel Olsteen, the king of the prosperity gospel, isn't among the line-up.
I believe in giving as the apostles taught for the support of ministry, saints and those in need. The teaching of tithing according to Mal 3 is used to coerce and offer the carrot of blessings over cursings to obtain access to believers wallets. When Mal 3 is used successfully and people give with the hope of gaining God's blessings, doesn't the fact that most use the giving to a "charitable" organization as a tax write off negate any blessing God could bestow? As for the church being tax exempt...why? Jesus had no problems with paying taxes. The church is better?
"Creflo Dollar, one of the preachers under investigation, sent Grassley a letter asking that the investigation either be referred to the IRS, which would give greater privacy, or that the Senate committee get a subpoena.
Dollar's lawyer, Marcus Owens of Washington, explained that turning over information through a subpoena would keep the church's information from being released to the public and "guarantees you privacy," as reported by The Wall Street Journal.
Dollar had released some information about the finances for his church ...showing that the 30,000-member church took in $69 million in 2006.
"I generally don't make this public," he said at the time."
excuse me Mr. Dollar, but why are you worried about sharing any financial information.... you should have nothing to hide. Also, The money from your minestry does not belong to you, it is Gods money. (see 1 Chronicles 29:14, Psalm 24:1)
TWPeck,
While I agree with you that the government should not have to look into the finances of these minestries, they should be transparent then the government would not have to step in. It is my opinion that churches in general should not have to hide their budget. It is Gods money and it is the congregations job to make sure the money they give is stewarded well. One great example of this transparency is Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Seattle. He says it is imperative to be open about how the church is spending its money.
God bless,
Anthony
www.bellybutton88.blogspot.com
Good point TWPeck! God has not written in His word for us not to pay taxes! Jesus told them, be accountable to the authorities, NONE exist but GOD, these are God's agents, whether they know it or not!
I do not see that it is Biblically sound to not pay taxes. My giving is between me and GOD, not even between me and my church! My love for GOD and out of my heart will show am I a cheerful giver or a stingy giver.
We are all in the end accountable to GOD! I do not think any churches Tithes and Offerings is open to Government perusal. We are giving to GOD not to men; if these men/women abuse our giving, it is GOD they are stealing from, not us.
Am I surprised by these events, no, we live in the end times, and the church is attacked all over. God is also cleansing HIS Bride and we need to STOP building up for ourselves treasures on earth, have we forgotten, this world is reserved for fire! Nothing of the flesh will remain!
Heed the Lord's warnings! Is it worth it, to gain the whole world and lose your own soul? This is the question of the day, is having all that "stuff" bringing you peace, I know it is not.
Jesus is all you need, when HE is all you have!
While I agree on the concept of accountability, it is very troubling to me that the government, especially congress, is putting its own dirty hands into the affairs of ministries. The church needs to govern itself from scripture, not the tax law, and it is foolish to give money to a ministry that does not hold itself accountable to the church.
However, there is another element to this story that is just as troubling to me. Making one's ministry tax exempt, in order to attract more donors, makes the ministry subject to the world's standards. Since the power to tax is the power to destroy, it can easily be misused by government (or those in power) to silence messages that are not liked or acceptable to their ears.
Don't be surprised if thought-laws (i.e. hate crime laws) work their way into the realm of tax exemption some day.