Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Society|Sat, Dec. 08 2007 10:35 AM EST

Congress Drops Bill Expanding 'Hate Crime' Protection to Gays

By Lawrence Jones|Christian Post Reporter

Congress dropped legislation this week that would have expanded federal hate crimes protections to include homosexuals and transgendered individuals.

House and Senate negotiators decided to strip the provision from the 2008 Defense Authorization bill on Thursday after concluding that the bill lacked the necessary votes to pass in the House.

One House Democratic aide, who spoke on condition of anonymity because conference negotiations are ongoing, said the bill was 40 votes short of passage, The Associated Press reported.

The measure sought to extend federal hate crimes laws – which currently protects individuals on the basis of race, religion and national origin – to individuals with “actual or perceived” sexual orientation or gender identity. If approved, the tacked-on amendment would have also authorized federal authorities to provide assistance to local authorities in hate crime investigations.

Supporters of the bill, sponsored by Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.), argued that the measure was relevant to the defense authorization bill because it represented an effort to stop violence at the home front.

However, the bill’s opponents, which included conservative Democrats and Republicans, said the amendment was irrelevant to the defense legislation and unnecessary since laws already cover violent acts against individuals.

Republicans expected President Bush to veto the bill if it included the hate crimes measure. The White House administration had agreed the provision was unnecessary and unrelated to the defense bill.

Rep. Trent Franks (R-Ariz.) said in a written statement Thursday that the bill "would have politicized the defense bill during a time of armed conflict” and be a disservice to troops.

Pro-family and Christians groups considered Thursday’s decision to drop the hate crimes language a victory for religious freedom and freedom of speech.

Some had referred to the provision as “thought crimes” legislation, saying it would criminalize thoughts or speech since the motivation of a person charged with hate crime would be evaluated. They also pointed to sticky situations where a pastor could be prosecuted for inciting a hate crime for preaching homosexuality as sin to his congregation.

"This is a big win for the cause of religious freedom and freedom of speech," said Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC), who had urged constituents to ask members of Congress to oppose the bill if it included the hate crimes language.

"For this victory, we owe a great debt of gratitude to the courageous members of the House who refused to bow to the pressure of political correctness and stood up for the constitutional principles of freedom of speech and freedom of religion,” added Land in a Baptist Press report.

The Christian Coalition of America, which had also called on supporters to ask Congress members to strike down the bill, was pleased with the removal of the hate crimes legislation, according to an e-mail sent by the group’s president, Robert Combs.

Andrea Lafferty, executive director of conservative group Traditional Values Coalition, claimed that although congressional Democrats knew the hate crimes measure lacked support for passage, they pushed ahead anyway to ease an attempt to revive the legislation next year.

“This is a short-term, but significant victory for traditional values,” said Lafferty in a statement. “The Democrats are desperate to appease their homosexual allies, so I expect the hate crimes issue to be back again next year after the Christmas recess.”

Lafferty also warned in a One News Now report that next year Democrats would continue their efforts to pass the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA), which seeks to add “sexual orientation” to a list of federally protected classes under a 1964 act that prohibits job discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin.

The Senate had voted to include the hate crimes amendment in September. Earlier in May, the House had passed the Defense bill that did not include the provision by a 397-27 vote.

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  • Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Christians who vote against this legislation not only don't understand what it is trying to do, they don't understand the Bible and the true meaning of "Love one's neighbor as yourself." Shame on you who claim to act for Jesus, yet could not be farther from the truth!

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:10 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    paine:

    I suggest you pick up a history book, and not just look at the "pick and choosing" that you're doing. I'm not saying we had a perfect past, nor that men in both "DEMOCRATIC" and "REPUBLICAN" persuasions were perfect. I was making a point that we do have a Christian history as a nation. For you to deny it, is like denying that the holocost never existed.

  • Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:09 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    jc4me wrote: "The overwhelming fact remains ifeelfine, the country was founded on Christian Principles, and nothing will ever erase that from historical facts."

    That there are those who still believe this is absurd. I realize it's very popular Religious Reich propaganda still left over from the late 70s/early 80s, but it's categorically false to anyone who has actually studied history and politics. At best, the majority of the "Founding Fathers" were Deists. This is a far cry, philosophically, from Christian. They might as well have been Muslim for all the similarities Deists have with Christians. Isolated, pulled out of context quotes from letters and journals are not evidence of "Christian principles."

    As far as Benjamin Rush: he believed in forced psychiatric treatment and that being black was a hereditary disease. He might be considered one of the first openly white supremacy theorists of the United States. He is also the father of the "disease model" for addiction—specifically for alcoholism—that gave rise to whole generations of "It's not my fault, it's the disease" excuses for addiction. And, finally, his religious views were more of a Universalist bent; meaning that he believed in the pluralism of religion even if he did have a personal preference for "a religion of the New Testament."

    Great role model there ya picked as a counterbalance. If I were making suggestions here it would be that you actually stop picking fights with information that is outside your knowledge base and obviously gleaned from propaganda sources.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    but DO NOT CHARGE A PREACHER FOR PREACHING THE BIBLE. The law needs to be perfected.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    homosexuality is a sin, but it is not the worst sin ever. Be a little nicer to them.

  • Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:31 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

    Continued

    Mcfbc:

    http://www.jeremiahproject.com/prophecy/clintbodycnt.html

    The Associated Press:Vincent Foster: the death investigation that hasn't ended.

    Jon Walker, an investigator for the Resolution Trust Corporation (RTC), mysteriously "fell" to his death from Lincoln Towers, in Arlington, VA. In March 1992, Walker contacted the Kansas City RTC office for information concerning the ties between Whitewater and the Clintons. He reportedly was looking into a 50 million dollar transfer from an RTC fund in Chicago to Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan to cover up a 47 million dollar embezzlement.

    Johnny Franklin Laughton, Jr., and a friend hit a telephone pole at a high rate of speed, Mar. 29, 1998, after their car had become airborne and left the road. They had driven less than 1/4 of a mile at the time of the impact. In the spring of 1997, a tornado ripped through some junked cars at Johnny's transmission and opened up the trunk of a car that proved to have a box of Whitewater records in it, including a copy of a $27,000 cashiers check drawn on Madison and payable to Bill Clinton. Johnny Franklin Laughton, Jr. realized what he was looking at and turned the box of documents over to the FBI."

  • Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:30 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

    Mcfbc:

    http://www.jeremiahproject.com/prophecy/clintbodycnt.html

    "......Whitewater
    People have been beaten and perhaps even killed for trying to expose the background of Webster Hubbell and the dealings of the Rose Law Firm of which he was a partner. Other famous partners in the firm were Hillary Rodham Clinton, and Vincent Foster.

    James McDougal was serving his 3 year sentence for bank fraud at the Fort Worth Federal Medical Center in Texas, a facility operated by the federal Bureau of Prisons for inmates who need medical attention. Just prior to another round of testimony before Kenneth Starr's grand jury, Jim McDougal suffered a heart attack while in solitary confinement and died March 8, 1998. When Jim McDougal was taken out of solitary, instead of attempting to defibrillate his heart with equipment on hand at the facility, he was driven over to John Peter Smith hospital. Not the closest hospital to the Fort Worth Federal Medical Center, John Peter Smith hospital is a welfare hospital, where (in the words of one local) ,"They let interns practice on deadbeats".
    The single most damning fact to come out of the McDougal death was his injection with Lasix, a diuretic, to force his giving a urine sample for drug testing, even though McDougal was not a known drug case, and Lasix is contra-indicated in cases of heart disease. Lasix can cause excessive diuresis, blood volume reduction, circulatory collapse, and vascular thrombosis, or blood clots. If a matching potassium supplement is not administered at the same time, Lasix can kill.

    Vince Foster, a former partner in the Rose Law firm and White House aide, had just been served a subpeona and was supposed to testify about Whitewater. Instead of testifying, he died on July 20, 1993. A suicide note was supposedly found a few days later, torn into several pieces, in his briefcase, after his office had been entered by white house staff and materials removed. (The "suicide" note has since been revealed to be a forgery.) The suicide conclusion does NOT square with the testimony from the man who found the body (the Confidential Witness) or much of the forensic evidence. For example, the gun which he supposedly used to kill himself was reported to be still in his hand, but the person who first found the body reports that there was no gun. A signed report of Medical Examiner, Dr. Donald Haut was uncovered at the National Archives, proving that Foster had a previously unreported gunshot wound to his neck. And, an FBI memo has surfaced dated the day after the date of the official autopsy, in which the autopsies informs the FBI that there was NO exit wound.
    I'm sure Bill Clinton was relieved when the Supreme Court ruled that the attorney-client privilege of confidentiality protects against disclosure of the notes even after a client’s death. That was the plan, after all, wasn't it?

  • Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:26 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

    mcfbc:

    http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/clintonfriends.htm

    The People President Clinton Didn't Have to Pardon...Because They're All Dead-Truth! & Fiction!


    The Truth: James McDougal died on Sunday, March 8, 1998 in John Petersmith Hospital in Ft. Worth, Texas. He had been serving a federal prison sentence for fraud in connection with the Whitewater land deal. At first, he claimed to be innocent, but after being convicted of 18 felony counts, he cooperated with Special Prosecutor Kenneth Starr's investigation of the Clintons. He was scheduled to give damaging testimony against the Clintons, although critics of the investigation say his testimony had previously been inconsistent and that nothing new was expected to be revealed. A prison spokesman said McDougal died of a heart attack and had been suffering from heart disease and blocked arteries.

    The Truth: Thirty-one year old Bill Shelton was police officer in Sherwood, Arkansas, and engaged to Kathy Ferguson. It was in his apartment that she was found dead. He was one of many of her friends who felt that Ferguson did not commit suicide and that the coroner's report was not accurate about her wound being self-inflicted. He was found a month later sprawled over her grave with a gunshot wound to his head that was similar to what the coroner had described as Ferguson's wound.

    The Truth: Gandy Baugh jumped out of a window of a multi-story building and died on January 8, 1994. Published reports say he was defending a man named Dan Lassater in a financial misconduct case. Lassater was an associate of Bill Clinton's who was convicted of cocaine distribution.

    The Truth: In his report to Attorney General Reno, Wilcher said that he was in grave danger and that if the information he had for the Attorney General fell into the wrong hands, there could be people "silenced in the very near future."

  • Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:27 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    mcfbc:

    It's funny that you should bring up the our first president George Washington owning slaves; but you forgot one very crucial point of information in your twisted post: George Washington had his nearly 300+ slaves freed when he died (had someone else do it of course, he was dead). READ UP ON YOUR HISTORY.

    With regard to Bil Clinton, just cause he carried a Bible on Sunday's and went to a United Methodist Church while he was in the presidency did not make him a born again Bible believing Christian. Surprisingly, while he was governor as well as President, many "deaths without causes" happened to people who opposed him. Even one of the women he sexually harrassed and had sex with came on national TV after she admitted to the affair and said that she didn't have any problems with her car brakes, and she was not a crazy driver, and the such. Do you know why mcfbc? Because she wanted to let the world know on national TV that if for whatever reason she disappeared, or was found dead for a misterious reason, that people would have to consider vengeance from Clinton.

    Another factual, historical example for you: Take for instance the insurance salesman who's wife worked for Clinton while he was in the Whitehouse. What about the scandal that surrounded and still surrounds Sandy Berger while he assisted the President on Intelligence issues. Why are crucial Intelligence Documents missing from the reports he requested to review? I find it odd that Liberals will blame republicans and conservatives as being conspirators in crimes, and ommissions of truth, etc, yet why doens't the liberal media capitalize on plastering Sandy Berger anymore? Because he worked for their poster boy Bill Clinton, that is why. Why don't you and the other liberal secular progressives on this site stop spewing half truths from your mouths, and start looking at history in context for a change?

  • Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:30 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    I am amazed at the double standard of so many posting here. You condemn Bill Clinton, who claims to be a Christian, as not being one because of his affair. Yet when someone 200 hundred years ago says they are a Christian you automatically assume that they are speaking the truth. Yet you don't put the same standard of judgement on them that you like to put on today's leaders. What about the fact that many of our founding fathers owned slaves. Our very first president was a slave owner. Yet no one seems to question his faith or of others of that time period. You can sit here and throw out 100 quotes about the founding fathers faith. If you choose to judge today's leaders not by their quotes, but by their lives, then don't use a different standard on past leaders.

  • Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:25 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    ifeelfine wrote:

    "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion….
    U.S. Treaty with Tripoli, 1797

    "At one time it was thought that this right merely proscribed the preference of one Christian sect over another, but would not require equal respect for the conscience of the infidel, the atheist, or the adherent of a non-Christian faith such as Mohammedism or Judaism. But when the underlying principle has been examined in the crucible of litigation, the Court has unambiguously concluded that the individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all." - Justice John Paul Stevens.

    . . . I could keep going."

    Exactly ifeelfine what you are quoting here is some of the pluralism that made it's way into our government, but it was not always this way. If you closely read my previous post(s) i did mention that it is this very pluralism that has lead to the post moderninsm, moral relativism, humanism, social progressive liberalism, depravity and seperation of this nation from Godly Principles; but you simply cannot negate the fact that our nation was founded upon Christian Principles, and that the Puritans, the Quakers, and many Preachers of the Gospel were invited to speak at government events during the foundations. Go check out the prayer meetings that were in the first Senate hearings in Congress, and their clear invocations to the God of Heaven and Earth and Jesus Christ. Go check out Benjamin Rush and his contributions to Christianity. Right, you won't go research him, because it goes against any liberal misconceptions you have conjured up. The overwhelming fact remains ifeelfine, the country was founded on Christian Principles, and nothing will ever erase that from historical facts. By the way, it was not social progressive liberals who fought to liberate the widely accepted slave trade during those times, it was a Republican President named Abraham Lincoln my friend; do you need me to go on and on?

    I suppose the founding fathers would have disagreed with you, but you are entitled to your post modernistic ways of thinking no matter how twisted or stretched they may be.

  • Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:55 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion….
    U.S. Treaty with Tripoli, 1797

    "At one time it was thought that this right merely proscribed the preference of one Christian sect over another, but would not require equal respect for the conscience of the infidel, the atheist, or the adherent of a non-Christian faith such as Mohammedism or Judaism. But when the underlying principle has been examined in the crucible of litigation, the Court has unambiguously concluded that the individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all." - Justice John Paul Stevens.

    . . . I could keep going.

  • Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:28 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    ifeelfine72:

    "jc4me - I think you need to read up on the history of the United States and not just get it from Rush Limbaugh. How about you read a history text book. It angers me when people like you completely spin history - you take snippets here and there without putting it in context."

    I did not get my quotes from Rush Limbaugh. What makes you think that? This clearly shows your head is in the gutter my friend. Again, liberals can't come up with factual historical statements, because they have had to rewrite history books to include the prince of timbuctu, but they don't tell you that the Puritans had a huge influence on our society, as well as the Quakers, and other Christian groups which were very well involved in the nations founding principles. You are the one spinning the historicity of the issue my liberal/post modern/revisionist friend. You should be the one reading up on the history of this nation; not from a revisionist perspective, but from a "whole context" perspective. It makes me laugh when all you liberals think we conservatives get all of our info from Rush Limbaugh, when there are many other conservative think tanks, as well as the library of congress, proof texts, historical records, written documents, and yet you love spinning the truth. All the quotes I have quoted for you were not from Rush Limbaugh, but from founders, foreigners (Alexis deTocqueville) who existed in true historical context (unlike your revisionist post modern mindset that is based on conspiracies in la la land), and likeminded men who actually formed universities, as well as likeminded Presidents (Woodrow Wilson in this instance; no not Clinton), Supreme Court Rulings, etc. Judging from the true historical facts my frined, it looks like the one making rash illogical statements is you, and you seem to be distorting the true historical context of it all, like you do the issue of sinfulness of homosexualityu which the Bible clearly says is sin liuke adultery and fornication. You seem to attack fundamentalism, but yet, you lack the credibility to back up your post modern view. You are the one who needs to do some historical searches about the founders, past presidents, and bring up some quotes to back up your illogical, post modern revisionist liberal statements ifeelfine.

  • Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:55 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    jc4me - I think you need to read up on the history of the United States and not just get it from Rush Limbaugh. How about you read a history text book. It angers me when people like you completely spin history - you take snippets here and there without putting it in context.

    What has fundamentalism ever done for the US? Nothing good that's for sure. It was liberal Christians who ended slavery not conservative Christians. Conservatives used the Bible to support slavery. It was progressive liberal Christians that helped women become voting members of society - not the conservative Christians. Conservative Christians used passages of the Bible to keep women as second class citizens. So if I sound like I don't care for fundamentalism, you're right. I think its almost as bad as atheism. Its such a perversion of God's love.

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:46 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    continued to ifeelfine:

    Or how about this ifeelfine, can you disregard historical fact when the first book in our public schools used to teach children how to read, write, and how to live uprightly was the Bible? Or how about Noah Webster, the educator and compiler of the 1828 "An American Dictionary of te English Language" expresses the convictions of the early founders of this country when he maintained that "Education without the Bible is Useless."

    Or how about the Christian foundations of our higher learning centers (Universities) for example: When Duke University was started in 1924, it's founding bylaws stated: " The aims of Duke University are to assert a faith in the eternal union of knowledge and religion set forth in the teachings and character of Jesus Christ, the Son of God."

    And the list goes on ifeelfine. Why is it that you always take the opposite side to Biblical Orthodox Christianity when you post? Why do you always side with the liberal/post modern element in your posts, rather than with the whole context of Scripture? Again, why do you continue denying that the Holy Bible clearly states that homosexuality is a sin, when you know because te Bible says so, that it is, just like lust, and forication, and adultery, etc?

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:45 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    ifeelfine wrote:

    "jester - no stretch at all . . . to me it looks like you are equating the Bible and the constitution (both written by Godly men, etc). Rubin isn't taking anything out of context it looks like. Also, the founding fathers were deists, not necessarily Christians. Some were, some weren't. This same argument has been going on since colonial times - some men wanted it to be a Christian nation others didn't. They did what they always do - compromise. Its not a Christian nation (like England was at the time and one of the reasons why they didn't want it to be a Christian nation) but allowed everyone their freedom regarding religion. To even call the constitution a document written by Godly men might be stretching it."

    Ifeelfine, do you know who Benjamin Rush was? He was one of the signers of the Constitution. Go read up on him. also, see what historical FACTS have to say about this country's Christian beginnings and foundations. Read up on Jester's comments a little more. He's right about our Christian beginnings. We may not be a very Christian nation as of now, granted, because pluralism, post moderninsm, liberalism, and it's flaws, as well as moral relativism, and situational ethics has take hold of every nook and cranny of our society, but you can't deny the founding Christian Principles on which our country was established.

    Maybe every liberal spinner ad revisionist of our history would like to look at these facts and go look them up for yourselves. You don't ear about these in our public schools nowaday's for fear of "offending" someone.
    1) In 1892, the SUPREME COURT of the UNITED STATES declared, "This is a Christian nation"
    2) French social Philosoper Alexis de Tocqueville concluded in 1831 the "[T]here is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than
    America."
    3) Woodrow Wilson said in 1911 that "America was born a Christian nation."
    4) The New England Confederation said the purpose of the colonies was "to advance the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ and to enjoy the liberties of the Gospel in purity and peace."

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:13 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    Hey Rubin, rather than giving jester a hard time about answering your question, why don't you answer mine that you seemed to have avoided the facts concerning your little socialist commie buddy's.

    Rubinleuski here are my facts to back up my "crazy ramblings". Again, like I posted before, I will post it again, there are always two sides to every story. Since liberals don't like fair and balanced, they will expose their one sided half truths.


    With regard to Nelson Mandela:

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=19085

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1255245/posts

    http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2497

    http://www.southafricathetruth.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=ab0f0ae2920adb78d8143abc3f3df8bd&page=154

    http://www.southafricathetruth.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=ab0f0ae2920adb78d8143abc3f3df8bd&page=125

    http://www.southafricathetruth.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=ab0f0ae2920adb78d8143abc3f3df8bd&page=44

    With Regard to Fidel Castro:

    http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/castro.thwart.html

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/sfeature/sf_views_bofill.html

    http://www.nocastro.com/atrocities/muertos.htm

    http://www.nationalalliance.org/cuba/benge2.htm

    With regard to Carter:

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/89426/jimmy_carter_americas_neville_chamberlain.html

    http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/jimmycarter.html

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1301629/posts

    http://rescueattempt.tripod.com/id24.html

    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/5/12/164726.shtml

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40072

    http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/8C2F9D21-1D16-4A82-8923-55A70017AE81/


    Would you like more mr. rubin?

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Well alright then Jester, but you still have not explained the 10 commandments thing relate to the notion of slavery:


    #10 of the ten commandments:

    "Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

    Taken from Deuteronomy 5:6–5:21

    Dont desire your neighbors slaves, but go get your own? Was it OK with God to have slaves?

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Senator (Socialist) Kennedy's provision was unwarranted and totally irrelevant to the Defense bill. As a resident of his socialist Massachusetts, it is quite evident that he not only is out of touch with his constituency, but the public at large!! It's time for a change, folks!!! Kennedy should be ousted and another breath of really fresh air and constitutionally astute conservator to replace him!!!

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    That "free will" is what give you the ability to deny His existence. Or, in my case, the ability to accept his existence. BUT....that "free will" puts the responsibility on YOU when you stand before Him someday. You will not be able to accuse or blame anyone else but yourself for making that decision. Free will is a great priviledge,,,,and a terrifying responsibility.

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    God was not the "cause" of the civil war (and many people would love to blame all the bad things on Him, but it aint true), but what it took was enough people with morals (whether they were God fearing people or not) to make the change. God can use anything or anyone to bring about His will. And though He would have rather the slavery issue have been concluded peacably, human nature said otherwise and a civil war ensued. And God cannot go against our will. He wanted it ended peaceably, but he could not go against our will, so he allowed other events to take place to accomplish what He wanted.

    "Why did it take about 80 years for "god fearing" people to kill each other off to end slavery?"
    Well, why did it take 2000 years and God sending His Son to die for us to get through to us that He loved us and wanted a relationship with us? Why is it that even today, people won't understand that. As I just said..."human will". God placed it in us, and He cannot go against it.

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Jester, your post "God still had the last word, and brought that phrase to reality through the Civil War. "

    Why did it take about 80 years for "god fearing" people to kill each other off to end slavery?

    The fact that there was slavery in the US and it took a civil war to end it tells me that a benevolent god had nothing to do with the creation of America and the drafting of the constitution as many on this board would claim (not you of course). I wont go into the fate of the indigenous peoples of the americas.

    And I would appreciate your views on the meaning of the reference to slavery below:

    #10 of the ten commandments:

    "Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

    Taken from Deuteronomy 5:6–5:21

    Dont desire your neighbors slaves, but go get your own? Was it OK with God to have slaves?

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Its sad when an organization has a civil war amongst themselves. Fundamentalists and liberal Christians are fighting eachother over what they believe to be right. What Fundamentalists dont realize is that by picking such an extreme side to follow the bible literally and condeming people who dont follow suit is giving you guys a horrible reputation. Heres a research site conducted by a Christian Group

    http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=280.

    Give it a look tell me what you think.

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    the only time referenced the Bible is when I said that many Presidents have quoted the Bible. But that still doesn correlate the Bible with the DOI.

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ifeelfine..
    yes it is quite a stretch...maybe not for you, as you seem to do it all the time. But did not say the DOI was inspired by God. I said "Im not saying that the DOI is inspired by God, though." In all that stretchin you may have missed that. And I wasn't equating the Bible with the DOI....there is not even the reference to the Bible in any of my posts. Again. putting words where none exist. I understand that not all the men were "Deists" (of Godly men...notice I never said "christian" either...you put those words in my mouth....again.), but i do find it interesting (as i said earlier) that it talks about God right at the beginning of the document.

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jester - no stretch at all . . . to me it looks like you are equating the Bible and the constitution (both written by Godly men, etc). Rubin isn't taking anything out of context it looks like. Also, the founding fathers were deists, not necessarily Christians. Some were, some weren't. This same argument has been going on since colonial times - some men wanted it to be a Christian nation others didn't. They did what they always do - compromise. Its not a Christian nation (like England was at the time and one of the reasons why they didn't want it to be a Christian nation) but allowed everyone their freedom regarding religion. To even call the constitution a document written by Godly men might be stretching it.

  • Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:56 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    To Maranatha7593: And the gay community will STILL continue to feel as though they are "twisting in the breeze"...and sure to keep argueing and fight their case,.....I also (personal opinion) feel a certain air of deceitfulness of the fact that in the last couple issues of theirs put in front of Congress and the President,...seems to come attached to a "War spending" bill or some other bill that seem completely unrelated to what they are trying to get signed,....So,...There I am (President or Head of the House) hypothetical situation,...signing and stamping a week and half of back log inbox,.....worrying about Christmas,.....thinking about whats next after my term is over with,....etc,...etc,...etc,....and most of the stuff I`m signing is pretty important and affects alot of people and I`m trying to stay as "articulate" as humanly possible,...signing , signing,..signing until my hand feels it does`nt have any feeling any more,....and here we go with something like this attached to a bill that will affect the next 4 generations of people living in this Country,....not nice to me,.....

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Getting back to the subject at hand -- this article:

    "However, the bill’s opponents, which included conservative Democrats and Republicans, said the amendment was irrelevant to the defense legislation and unnecessary since laws already cover violent acts against individuals."

    THIS is the point. A new law simply isn't NEEDED. Carrying on about unrelated issues doesn't change this.

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    rubin, there is still no need to put words where none exist. what i wrote is what i meant.
    The gentelmen who drafted and signed the DOI were, for the most part, Godly men. But each one of them were imperfect.
    You could say that the DOI was inspired by a perfect God by imperfect men. Even the prophets of the old testament were imperfect, but the words they spoke were from God. And, if God did inspire the words "all men are created equal", and slave owners wrote them...God still had the last word, and brought that phrase to reality through the Civil War. Im not saying that the DOI is inspired by God, though. That is not the point, the point is the God fearing men who sacrificed so dearly for that document.

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:33 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    WWJD? Ban them, hate them, taunt them or embrace them? Why is it that the loudest anti-gay movement leaders are gay themselves? Haggard, Foley, Nelson.........
    Does anyone think this is going away? U.S. is moving back toward the 1950's andnot toward the 2010's. When was the last time homosexuality beliefs started a war? Now same question with religious beliefs?

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jester, I didn't say you posted "constitution being "inspired by God"" I was looking for clarification if thats what you meant because on many posts I have read, they make the claim. Nevertheless, the claim on these posts is at least that the constitution was crafted by christians. So I will ask you again, if all men are created equal, why did slavery continue in the USA, a nation of so-called christians, excepting of course for the non-christians (indigenous peoples that were largely subjugated).

    Also, getting back to the ten commandment thing:

    #10 of the ten commandments:

    "Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

    Taken from Deuteronomy 5:6–5:21

    Dont desire your neighbors slaves, but go get your own? Was OK with God to have slaves?

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    rubin...
    huh?
    you really like twisting and streeeeeeeeeeetching what people say dont you? I said nothing about the constitution being "inspired by God". Only someone who is boredrline schizoid would assume that. Reread what I wrote, post an INTELLIGENT comment, and maybe we can talk.

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Rubinleuski here are my facts to back up my "crazy ramblings". Again, like I posted before, I will post it again, there are always two sides to every story. Since liberals don't like fair and balanced, they will expose their one sided half truths.


    With regard to Nelson Mandela:

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=19085

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1255245/posts

    http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2497

    http://www.southafricathetruth.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=ab0f0ae2920adb78d8143abc3f3df8bd&page=154

    http://www.southafricathetruth.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=ab0f0ae2920adb78d8143abc3f3df8bd&page=125

    http://www.southafricathetruth.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=ab0f0ae2920adb78d8143abc3f3df8bd&page=44

    With Regard to Fidel Castro:

    http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/castro.thwart.html

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/sfeature/sf_views_bofill.html

    http://www.nocastro.com/atrocities/muertos.htm

    http://www.nationalalliance.org/cuba/benge2.htm

    With regard to Carter:

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/89426/jimmy_carter_americas_neville_chamberlain.html

    http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/jimmycarter.html

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1301629/posts

    http://rescueattempt.tripod.com/id24.html

    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/5/12/164726.shtml

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40072

    http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/8C2F9D21-1D16-4A82-8923-55A70017AE81/


    Would you like more mr. rubin?

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    jester_in_the_Kings_court ' your post "That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..." All men created equal (and thus treated equal). And created equal by whom? The government? No. By God. By God. Isn't it funny that the first sentence of the Declaration of Independence speaks of our Creator? And yet, people still say that God was never intended to be a part of our government?"

    So are you saying that the constitution was inspired by god? if so, how does slavery fit into all of this? Did god approve of slavery? That would be consistent I suppose with #10 of the ten commndments:

    "Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

    Taken from Deuteronomy 5:6–5:21

    Dont desire your neighbors slaves, but go get your own?

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    jc4me: you posted

    "Why don't you speak something that actually has a hint of balance to what you say? "

    Dude, I didn't see much balance in your crazy ramblings there.

    Nelson Mandela, dictator? are you joking. the same mandela, President of South Africa, the first to be elected in fully representative democratic elections and now has retired from politics. The same guy that spent 27 years in prison for trying to bring feeedom to the majority in SA. Seriously, where do you get your info. You need to find some balance.

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:22 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    rubinlueski: you speak of our support of the Shah of Iran, yet you don't include the terrorism of the Iatola's that your primo Carter sympathized with, and helped set into power in Iran in the 1970's when we were in one of the biggest recessions the country has ever known-thanks to Jimmy te peanut farmer and his cronies. This was the same jimmy carter that heralded Nelson Mandela the gentleman who burned dissenters in tire inner tubes; this is the sae jimmy carter who subsequently sympathizes with "free elections" for Hamas? He calls himself a so-called Christian, and yet he hates Israel; Jimmy Carter your poster boy also heralds Fidel Castro in Cuba, as he does Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. I suppose he feels that Mao Tse tung is innocent, and that the right wing conservative media is just spilling of fundamentalist rehetoric huh? Terrorists will kill regardless of who is in power. and if you tink that they will listen to some dialoguing, you're seriously mistaken.

    Think again. You see, there's always 2 sides to every story. There is the liberal propaganda machine that only shows one side usually sugar coated with a little so-called humaitarianism at the expense of pushing tax increases on working families who pay their taxes and have to survive paycheck to paycheck, but in the end it is cancer, and then there is always as Paul Harvey says - "the rest of the story".

    Mr. Rubin, why don't you expose both sides to the story? Why don't you attempt to even speak the trut by sayng that our country would not have been in Iraq if there would not have been a 911 connection with Sadaam Hussein and the suicide bombers who killed over 3000 innocent civiliams that September 2001 morning? Why don't you speak of the intelligence reports and photos shown on CNN, MSNBC and Fox News that cleraly showed trucks leaving Iraq before the war started with what appeared to be rockets covered by tent material? Why don't you speak something that actually has a hint of balance to what you say? Why is it that you say you ave a bit of conservatism when everything you speak has a slight disdain for American foreign policy, as well as Amerca's self defense? WHy would you even bring up the Shah of Iran and the "autrocities" committed without bringin out the facts that there are more people killed by suicide bombers and terrorism coming out of that region because of the Iatola's? Why, why, why? Will you agree that Nelson Mandela is also a dictator? will you agree that Fidel Castro is an assassin and not some hearld to the liberals? WIll you also admit that Hugo Chavez is a dictator as well who oppresses his people? Will you admit the ties that those dictators in the Carribbean have with soem of America's enemies over seas in the middle east? NO I think you won't Mr. Rubin, because like most prgressive liberals, you seem only to see one side of the coin- te oe that best fits your agenda.

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    HyperionOverseer Actually, the US is viewed as the terrorist, rogue country by millions in the ME for our imperial ambitions there for the last approx. 90 years to secure and protect our oil interests. Study up on US involvement in the ME and you will learn why we have much blood on our hands and you will learn why 9-11 occured. You are not alone in your ignorance of the ME, most Americans haven't a clue. But guess what, the peoples of the ME know . They also know why we are in Iraq. Its not about "liberation", its mostly about OIL.


    TERRORISM FROM THE MIDDLE EAST IS HERE BECAUSE WE, THE USA, HAVE BEEN TERRORIST THERE

    read about the US support of the brutal dictator- the Shah of Iran for starters.

    THE PROBLEM WITH AMERICANS IS THEY DONT WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT US INVOLVEMENT IN THE MIDDLE EAST

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    jc4me: you posted
    "rubin, i might also remind you that your favorite president clinton dodged the draft, so please don't pick on bush and cheney. thank you for your sincerity in exposing everything from the liberal very well intentioned well balanced point of view."



    First off jc, you really should not put quote me for things I did not say. I did not even mention Clinton in my posts. The thing that you did miss however, is there was a very, very important distinction between bush and cheney, and clinton. bush & cheney were BOTH FOR THE VIETNAM, but neither was willing to go serve themselves. clinton WAS AGAINST THE WAR, he was consistent. He realized that it was one Imperial power (the US) replacing another Imperial power (France) in Vietnam. Once the French got beat, the US simply took their place. It was senseless . clinton knew this and that it was an immoral war.

    As far as labeling me "liberal",actually I am conservative in many ways. I opposed the iraq war. Conservative in the sense that I knew it was pure folly to go into iraq. I wanted to conserve: lives, treasury, reputation, resources.

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:25 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    This country was built on God. Almost all the Presidents have shown their faith in God whether in speech or action. They use the Bible in their public speeches. They pray to God. I read an article about a man who was at the White House to receive some kind of medal from President Bush...and Bush ended up PRAYING with this man and embracing him.
    The "separation of chruch and state" was meant to keep the government out of the churches, not the other way around.
    I'm glad the bill got shot down. There is enough protection for them. If they get beat up or killed, the aggrevator will be punished...just as if they had beat up or killed anyone else. To give them special rights makes them more important. If my wife is murdered by someone because they got pissed off at her for doing something, that is a hate crime. But yet, her life would be worth less than the gay or lesbian. That's what its all about.
    yes, this country is for all of us...i would like for all to be treated equally.
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..." All men created equal (and thus treated equal). And created equal by whom? The government? No. By God. Isn't it funny that the first sentence of the Declaration of Independence speaks of our Creator? And yet, people still say that God was never intended to be a part of our government?

  • Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I'm not sure what you guys are talking about.. The issue is clearly that the Christian and other Religious conservatives are under the impression that it's a good idea for religious values to dictate the policy of the country.

    "They also pointed to sticky situations where a pastor could be prosecuted for inciting a hate crime for preaching homosexuality as sin to his congregation."

    Fact is, it's true. A preacher may have the right to preach his/her values as truth, the Christian way, what have you.. But this is not a victory for Christian Americans.. It's a loss for all Americans who believe in civil rights. And whether it's a combination of genetics and environment, or a choice that people make, they have a right to be the way they are, just as Christians have.

    What does this even have to do with the 2004 election? Bush is the best President ever to embody Christian morals? That's a good thing? The Executive Branch is not meant to embody any religious values at all. If you think that religion should play a bigger part in government, you're living in the wrong country. Yes we are free outside of the governments grip to believe and say whatever we want. Up to the point where it impedes upon others' rights.

    I think the main issue here is getting a funding bill passed.. Which by the way won't actually be paid for anytime soon. These war spending bills only push us deeper into debt. I'm not very excited to have to pay for this war for the next 30 years. Terrorists here or there is not an argument. It's a justification for war crimes

    It makes me very sad that Christians are still dividing the country this way. Your Muslim Terrorists whom you claim the choice is between here or there.. would agree with you on not protecting the Gays. And you want protection from punishment when you preach the same hatred that they do? The ideology is the same. Be thankful for your freedom by helping to ensure everyone else has it too. This country is for all of us, not just conservative Christians..

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:55 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Is John Kerry a christian? Nope. so whats your point? We voted in the lesser of two evils...

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Rubin is asking reasonable questions. Is George Bush really a christian? Is he a good representative of christian values? I personally don't think so at all.

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:55 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    rubin, i might also remind you that your favorite president clinton dodged the draft, so please don't pick on bush and cheney. thank you for your sincerity in exposing everything from the liberal very well intentioned well balanced point of view.

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:53 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Rubin, we like your sincerity in liberal spin, and we still love you even though you would vote for a communist pothead named Bottox Kerry.

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:23 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    rubin...
    Yeah, i've heard about all the medals Kerry "earned". I wouldn't trust him walking my dog, much less leading our country. Bush may not be the best president, but he was by far the least of two evils. Thank God Kerry didnt win.

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:06 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    jc4me "bush and cheney were advocates off the Vietnam War, yet both found ways to keep from going. Kerry went and served and found out that it was an immoral war and huge mistake for the US that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. All for nothing.

    In regard to your other statement "allah is not the God of the Judeo Christian faith. Actually Islam is a monotheistic Abrahamic religion. As such, both God and Allah to refer to the same entity.

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:57 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    HyperionOverseer U posted "Bush is one of our best presidents when it comes to embodying christian morals!"

    Are you refering to the invasion and destruction of Iraq?

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    HyperionOverseer:

    greetings Hyperion, I agree with you on many issues; however, i voted for Mr. Bush, and he did verbally say He was a born again Christian. However, when he says that all religions including muslims and hindu's are praying to the same God, he is wrong. allah is not the God of the Judeo Christian faith, and I will be the first one to point out this error by Mr. Bush. With his recent statement, he is endorsing the same type of ecumenicalism that Rick Warren and many in the emerging church movement are promoting.

    however, I will say that i do believe he was the best choice between Kerry and himself. Kerry is a traitor to his country, as is Ted Kennedy, and Jimmy Carter the peanut farmer who praises every communist revolution while spewing venom about the country when he visits other country's. The very country that affords him the right to speak as he chooses. For all the naysayers, we lost vietnam on the psychological front, but militarily if it wasn't for all the pothead junkie red diaper doper baby communists during the hippie era promoting STD's and pot smoking to the American youth; not to mention LSD, and oter psychodelic drugs, paganism, the occult, and new age (est, etc), we as a nation would have won the Vietnam war, I am confident that we would have driven out the communists, but thanks to Jane Fonda, and John Kerry and the like, we lost it idealogically. The 1960's was not a heralding triumph for the US; no it was a heralding defeat in not only national moral, but in individual morals, and principals. It was a time that Fidel Castro was heralded by Time magazine as some kind of savior for Cuba (look at what he did after he took over), and so they praise the gran assassin Che Guevara, and to this day, those same pot head liberals who brought more STD's and liberalized morality still praise assassins such a Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, Nelson Mandela, etc. They have chosen to rewrite history for the sake of a few errors this country has made, and now our children get a watered down education in public schools where they learn more about some false monkey ancestor named Lucy, or the prince of some island somewhere in the boonies, and they don't even know who the Founding Father's of this nation are such as Benjamin Rush, etc.

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Praise God for mighty are His ways!!

    If God is for us who can be against us?

  • Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:44 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    ustjo, "Edward Kennedy needs to be excommunicated from his church"

    does this apply to bush too for wars against humanity in Iraq?

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