Matthew Murray, the gunman who is believed to have shot and killed four people in Colorado, appeared to have acted out of revenge against Christians, police officials indicated.
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(Photo: AP Images / Kevin Moloney, Pool)As many as twenty bullet holes riddle the entryway of the New Life church in Colorado Springs, Monday, Dec. 10, 2007, where a day earlier a gunman entered the building. Two are dead in addition to the gunman and another three are injured in the second shooting to hit a Colorado religious organization in a day. The gunman in the Colorado Springs shooting was killed by a church security guard.
Authorities believe Murray, 24, posted an anti-Christian message online on Sunday - the day of the shootings - in a language almost identical to the text of a manifesto written by one of the Columbine killers, Eric Harris.
"You Christians brought this on yourselves," Murray wrote, according to KUSA-TV in Denver. "Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you ... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world."
If the time on the posting is accurate, the diatribe was posted between the first shooting at 12:30 a.m. Sunday morning at Youth With a Mission (YWAM) missionary training center in Arvada and the second attack at 1:10 p.m. that same day at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, according to KUSA.
The postings were removed from the unidentified website, which was designed for people who left evangelical religious groups, after Sunday's killings. Other postings by Murray included lyrics by industrial rock band KMFDM.
"Our family cannot express the magnitude of our grief for the victims and families of this tragedy. On behalf of our family, and our son, we ask for forgiveness. We cannot understand why this has happened," Murray's uncle, Phil Abeyta, said in a statement as he fought back tears, according to The Associated Press.
Murray came from what neighbors have described as a "very, very religious" family. His 21-year-old brother, Christopher, is a student at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Okla., and Murray attended a home-based computer school and had worked at his computer for three to five hours a day for the past two years, investigators said.
In 2002, Murray had enrolled in a Discipleship Training School (DTS) at the YWAM Arvada training center. DTS students partake in a 12-week lecture course followed by a 12-week field assignment, usually to another culture. Murray neither completed the lecture phase nor participated in the field assignment. YWAM's USA International President John Dawson said program directors felt "issues with Murray's health made it inappropriate" for him to participate.
Richard Werner, Murray's former roommate at the training center, described Murray as a quiet and sarcastic person who made some bizarre comments. At a YWAM Christmas festival in December 2002, Werner recalled Murray playing Marilyn Manson's "Sweet Dreams (are Made of This)" and Linkin Park's "One Step Closer" which included the lyrics "Cause I'm one step closer to the edge and I'm about to break."
"A lot of the kids really got scared about it," Werner told CNN. "We were just playing songs about Christmas, about God and friendship and then he came up with those songs."
Murray's parents were there and with the center's officials, they decided it would be best for him not to go out on a mission, according to CNN. Murray did not react angrily but was "always very calm," said Werner.
"After that, he got out of the meeting and he turned to a friend of mine and the only thing he said was like 'I have a message for everyone: just say that now you will see your star,'" Werner told CNN.
Murray left the training center and made no further visits, according to the YWAM statement. Continue >>
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Hey Citizen, how exactly do secular people decide if something is morally right or wrong? If you really honestly think about it they cannot, it will always end up in, I THINK this is right or wrong, or I LIKE such and such behavior. For instance someone might say, "Well, if everyone were homosexual then the entire human race would be extinct in one generation, and therefore since the act of homosexuality cannot pass the test of universality it must be wrong" I am not saying that thinking is right or wrong but it makes about as much sense as saying, "Homosexuallity is morallly ok because the people like to do it" You might as well say, "well if a 10 year old child wants to have a sexual relationship with someone else then it is ok too because they are happy" As happened the other day with the judge in Australia. What a bunch of nonsense. Anyway, if you can explain to me how you can honestly say objectively that homosexuality is morally ok then please do.
Regarding what children need, I read in a time magazine last year that children with heterosexual parents who stay together are most likely to succeed and less likely to be depressed or commit crimes. No doubt this isnt to say that children of homosexual parents can't do that, but statistics show that it is not the norm (I am sure you can find that statistic in a number of other secular journals or magazines). Children do need love but they also need balance and truth.
Regarding using the Bible as a weapon against gays, that is a loaded statement and you can say it about anything. Any knowledge can be used as a weapon, the thing is what is true, not what we want.
jesus4me: Yes, you do use the bible as a weapon against gays. There is no secular justification for refusing to accept that there is nothing wrong with sexual relationships between consenting adults of the same sex, no secular justifications for privileging heterosexual couples with special marriage rights. Nobody is demanding that sterile heterosexual couples, heterosexual couples too old to procreate, or heterosexual couples who do not plant to have children not be allowed to get married, so the whole, "marriage is for procreation" line is a lie. What children need is love, attention, and care, and it doesn't matter whether they get that from a man and a woman, two men, or two women, unless you are invested in a patriarchal system of gender roles that comes from...the bible!
Sorry THE TRUEBZ:
I wrote:
"I'm sorry for the young man, his family, and YWAM that did all they could to direct this young man into the truth.."
I really meant to say I'm sorry for this young man and the autrocity he committed, but I'm even more sorry for his family and YWAM who did all they could to direct this young man i the truth"
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but God's Word will not pass away.
Continued to THE TRUEBZ:
Furthermore, to suggest as Citizen suggested that we (Christians) use the Bible as a weapon against homosexuality is absurd. The Bible in and of itself condemns sin - period. We are all sinners regardless of the sins, and we need a Savior. Without Jesus Christ in our lives, we have the capabilities to be just as evil as the next guy. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. For one to discount the fact that the Bible teaches that fornication, adultery, bisexuality, pornography, bestiality, pedophilia (namely NAMBLA and it's connections with the homosexual community), and all other sexual perversions and aberrations are not sinful, and to try to back down from what the Bible teaches because you have incidents like this, is to deny our Lord, and to deny the Bible. We can not, and should not stop teaching the truth in love. What happens is that when people are in bondage to let's say homosexuality, or adultery, they think their situation is difference, hence, they feel the Bible needs to be tweaked/reinterpreted to adapt to what they have chosen as a lifestyle. They find it offensive that the Word of God would say they are living in sin. Hence, when the Word is taught and an opportunity is given to people to make a right decision to leave this lifestyle, or they would be judged by God, they call it hate speech, hatemongering, and start lumping up Christians in groups that are otherwise non-Christians causing chaos in the world. We need to continue steadfastly in the faith regardless of the persecution, the antagonism, and the hatred some feel for Jesus. See, people today call it hateful when you point truth to them; when they can't justify their own behavior in Human terms they go to extreme measures such as this young man "snapping" at this missions organization, because he didn't have a repentant heart when he was going thru a course designed to help homosexuals and bisexuals out of their sinful lives by introducing them to Jesus Christ. I'm sorry for the young man, his family, and YWAM that did all they could to direct this young man into the truth, but ultimately this was his choice, and he acted out on the impulses of his flesh thru the help of the devil to kill innocent people that day. We need to pray for the people who lost loved ones here, as well as the family of the young man who committed this atrocity, and forgive him, because from the looks of his Marilyn Manson music, and Linkin Park something greater that himself took him over the edge in true hate and eventually murder; which would be his mind and flesh being guided by Satan himself in this act of selfishness towards innocent people.
The TRUE BZ wrote:
"Wouldn't it be best to agree that killing over religious differences is always wrong, and then work against that rather than against a particular set of beliefs? I think stacking up communist atrocities versus the inquisition and the crusades, then arguing over whether the religious beliefs or lack thereof were a by-product, a coincidence, or a driving factor is missing the point. And that's before you argue over whose side gets Hitler."
Yes, killing over beliefs is always wrong. However, let’s not compare apples and oranges with regard to what you said about the Inquisition and Communism. The Spanish Inquisition killed over 2000 people which is a horrible atrocity, while Communism has created even a more horrible one on par with genocide; it has killed over One Hundred Million plus people in its quest to do away with God, and impute secular progressive humanism into the world with the government being their god. Hitler was also a madman who committed human genocide. They all had one common thread - get rid of those we don't agree with violently, but please don't tell me the Spanish Inquisition was worse than Communism, and worse than Hitler's Killing of Jews, Protestants, Catholics, and the like. Please, lets argue points, but let's not go down this slippery slope, because there is much evidence to suggest that secular humanism, socialism, the Muslims/Moors (when they tried taking over the whole of Europe thru the Iberian Peninsula/Spain) and flat out fascism have done more to wipe out more people in this world than some of the worst atrocities committed by "so-called Christians". This is the reason people need Jesus Christ; regardless of their sins, and regardless of their background.
Also, ProfessorX, you should try to understand the atheist viewpoint better even if you don't agree with it. So many of those things you said don't describe a single atheist I know, and I know several. First of all, we don't have faith in chance and luck. The whole chance and luck thing is a caricature of evolution, and not what anyone actually believes. Also, even if we are wrong, most atheists are making our best attempt at knowing the truth based on the evidence, even if we have committed a logical fallacy. Therefore, it is not faith. Nor are we superstitious, even if we are foolish and incorrect, we are by definition not superstitious. Atheists in general are not fond of faith or superstition, and you are going to offend a lot of people by saying these things. Stick to simply saying our beliefs are wrong, please. We don't agree with it, obviously, but at least it isn't ignorant.
Nor does an atheist worship himself, or the human race in general as the highest authority. We may believe there are no authorities higher than humanity, but we have more of an "we're fallible but we have to do the best we can because that's life" attitude than a claim to some sort of divinity.
Btw, can I have a link to whatever study shows evolution is within the science-fiction section of most libraries? Even discredited scientific theories don't go in the science fiction section, so that claim just doesn't really ring true. Especially since the serious books on UFOs, astrology, palm reading, etc. don't end up in the science fiction section.
Wouldn't it be best to agree that killing over religious differences is always wrong, and then work against that rather than against a particular set of beliefs? I think stacking up communist atrocities versus the inquisitiona and the crusades, then arguing over whether the religious beliefs or lack therof were a by-product, a coincidence, or a driving factor is missing the point. And that's before you argue over whose side gets Hitler.
Again we see how detrimental the philosophy of Atheism and Secular Humanism is to a society. It has caused more misery than any religion has. The religion of Atheism worships "self" as their highest authority and sinful self is the problem. But here's the goodnews...Atheism and Secular Humanism are among the Dead and Dying Myths of the 21st Century. It is being rejected by the educated, educators, and the MASS PUBLIC. Atheists have become the epitome of superstitious because they have great faith in chance and luck to design the hamony within the complexity which we see around us. Even their examples of Darwinism have been left within the Science-FICTION section most libraries in America.
http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
Again we see how detrimental the philosophy of Atheism and Secular Humanism is to a society. It has caused more misery than any religion has. The religion of Atheism worships "self" as their highest authority and sinful self is the problem. But here's the goodnews...Atheism and Secular Humanism are among the Dead and Dying Myths of the 21st Century. It is being rejected by the educated, educators, and the MASS PUBLIC. Atheists have become the epitome of superstitious because they have great faith of chance and luck to design the hamony within the complexity that we see around us. Even their examples of Darwinism have been left within the Science-FICTION section most libraries in America.
http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
Citizen - "Using the Bible as a weapon against gays" is never a good idea . . . but the fundy's aren't going to stop doing it so its necessary for other more moderate and progressive Christians to help the gay folks out (just like the progressive Christians did to help end slavery / Jim Crow and just like they did in getting women the vote, etc).
For the record, it sounds like this kid was just ill and if it wasn't "gay reparitve therapy" it would have been something else that made him act out.
Godless Infidel
Also, your speech about fundamentalism? The man was clearly unstable, so you can't just blame religion.
Godless Infidel, look, people like you need help. People are happier with religion. It helps them be better people. Anything can be used for evil. Your arguement is the same as saying books are evil because of Mein Kampf, for example. Religion helps people try to lead good, moral lives. But any good thing can be used for bad. And also, with religion, people who are violent and angry can be calmer and better people.
This man was obviosly troubled. We needed to learn to forgive and help him try to see the light. It is a great tragedy.
So, now that we know that the cause of the shooter's rage was the church's rejection of him for being bi-sexual, and going through failed "ex-gay therapy," will you all please, please take another look at whether or not using the bible as a weapon against gays in the struggle to make them self-loathing is really in their best interests?
http://rjr10036.typepad.com/proceed_at_your_own_risk/2007/12/hell-hath-no-fu.html
This is certainly a tradegy that this, now forever lost, individual has caused. While it is certainly a sad affair that he killed believing Christians, and their loss will always be remembered around the holidays by their loved ones, they can take comfort to know that in reality, the shooter only gave them a one-way ticket home. And now they are spending Christmas with the one whom it is all about!
The real tradegy is that this person will never know an existence other than Hell now, as he rejected the One who gave His life for him, and chose the dark one instead.
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I agree with prodriver, Jesus never called us to be 'religious', and He actually spoke out against it. Religion is nothing more than man's rules placed upon what God has written. It is generally a bad thing and we should encourage the religious to get back to the personal relationship that God so desires with us.
If God were into conformity when it comes to worship, He would have told us so. He didn't, as this has to be a personal and private matter, not a corporate matter.
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Beloved, if you don't know Jesus in an intimate and personal way, then there is a problem. There is a big difference between knowing Jesus versus just knowing OF Jesus. If you don't know Him, ask Him to make Himself real to you. He will. He said He would not give you a rock if you asked for a fish. He also said He would not turn a one away who truly searched for Him. Seek and you will find.
well, all I can say is, that "Godless Infidel" is somehow right. "Good people doing bad things, that takes religion", made me smile in a way.
The thing that when believers are treated with the rules of the bible they only can fail, they only can get stressed and finally some might end up, do even worse things.
This is humanism of the bibles message. "You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free!" . It is a tragedy what happend to the young man, and even grief what he has done, but what is the message behind? When do we start to see the bible and christianity the way it is.
It brings fogiveness, not rules. It brings freedom, not stress and peace not argues. How can we argue about the bible? We are not called to be attornies we are called to be witnesses.
And by the way, humans ARE those monsters naturally. It´s just education and sozialism that keeps them from being even more egoistic and self centered and sinfull. This is just true and we don´t even need the bible for that.
The bible just shows the way how to deal with it. How to become free from sin, how to repair the relationship with God, that has to be fixed and can only be fixed by Jesus Christ.
This is no doctrine, people can experience that, and then they should keep to the bible - and this bible teaches love, love and love. If there´s no love in raising our kids, we come up with YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED AND GO TO HELL IF THIS AND THAT - this is simply not true and draws people away from the truth Jesus Christ, because they can never keep the rules.
"Godless infidel",
If you know what happened in Russia, China, and North Korea, and other Communist party-ruled countries through recent 50 years, you will know there is really no good people at all without believing God. I suppose you know the communists are all unbelievers or "Godless infidels". Likewise, there is no human dignity at all without God. It is really an insult and shame for a dignified human being to be godless or unbeliever.
rasqual
I believe it is our ingrain human nature to treat each other decent, regardless of our beliefs or lack there of. I don't think humans are the naturally depraved immoral monsters your church would have you believe.
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion
God's school of higher education
http://poleblog.polemos.net/2007/08/gods-school-of-higher-education.html
So...Your blaming entertainment when in the gunman's own words he was searched every time he walked in his home for 'evil DVDs and CDs', he was told he would burn in hell for watching the Simpsons and he was raised in an environment where he was told the world would end any day. And you still can't see how religious dogma played a part in this? And by the way, as a non-believer I am expect to account for even bad thing ever done by other non-believers by people like you, this is nothing new, but why doesn't work the other way. I don't know what you believe and I'm not interested in deconverting believers, I just have a serious problem with fundamentalists of any sect. This story is a prime example of what fundamentalism breeds.
"...instead of an assault rifle you sign yourself up on a Christian website..."
A highly significant difference! We can all survive debating each other, as vehement as we might get in our argumentation.
That has to be the most blatantly offensive and insulting comment I could imagine reading after an article about this tragedy. It is plain and simple your directed attact against Christians, only instead of an assault rifle you sign yourself up on a Christian website to wage a crusade against Christians. To come to the conclusion that Christianity twisted his mind instead of an entertainment culture that is literally steeped in blood and violence just shows that no matter what information you hear, you just want to attack Christians. I have nothing against you, but it is obvious you need to vent some form of angst against a distinct group of people. Would you attack Jews in the same way? Or Muslims? Your comment is discriminatory and hateful. You say the bible has stories about violence, but it can't compare to the massive history of atrocities committed by "Godless Infidels." If you lump all crimes committed by Christians and lay them at their feet, then its fair to lump all crimes committed by the Godless and lay them at your feet.
In that case, Christianity must be a miraculous thing indeed, since this kid was such a glaring exception and not the rule. If the Christian faith consists so entirely of such violent dogma as you aver, then only the miraculous can explain why all these folks at the church weren't constantly shooting each other and cooking each others' babies.
Or it shows that some anti-Christians are careless thinkers and gratuitously assert really oddball things.
Gunman Posted Anti-Christian Rant Between Shootings
This title implies that he wasn't one of your own. The kid was home schooled in a deeply religious home. Whether he was kicked out or not, church was obviously a huge part of his life. Sounds like all those stories of rape, murder, genocide and infanticide that he read in the bible made an effect on him. His mind was clouded with violent Xtain dogma and then you act surprised that he turns out this way. Sounds like chickens coming home to roost, if you ask me.