A poll conducted immediately following presidential contender Mitt Romney’s faith speech last week found that about one out of six Americans still say they would not support their party’s nominee if that person was a Mormon.
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(Photo: AP Images / Luis M. Alvarez)Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney responds to a question during the Univision Republican Presidential Candidate Forum at the University of Miami in Coral Gables, Fla. Sunday, Dec. 9, 2007.
Seventeen percent of Americans, including similar proportions of Republicans and Democrats, responded they were unwilling to vote for a Mormon presidential candidate even if the person was “generally well-qualified” for the position, according to The Gallup Poll released Tuesday.
The Dec. 6-9 survey showed that Americans’ opinion on voting for a Mormon candidate for president has changed little since this question was asked by Gallup in 1967.
Four decades ago when Romney’s father - former Michigan Gov. George Romney – was seeking the presidency, 17 percent of Americans had also said they would not support a Mormon as their party’s nominee for president.
Likewise in 1999, 17 percent of respondents also expressed unwillingness to vote for a Mormon for president.
But opposition to a Mormon presidential candidate has decreased since the beginning of this year.
In early February before Romney first officially declared his candidacy, the percentage opposed to the party’s nomination of a Mormon was 24 percent. The statistic dropped to 19 percent in March, after he entered the race. An August Gallup poll, meanwhile, showed 22 percent of Americans think being Mormon is an “undesirable” characteristic for the next president.
Last Thursday, Romney delivered a much-anticipated speech on “Faith in America,” partly aiming to reassure evangelical voters who are suspicious of Mormonism. The speech, which he had resisted to give for months, was also likely delivered in response to former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee’s sudden lead in Iowa caucus polls. Romney had been leading in Iowa for months.
Although Romney may have cared more about his speech’s impact on conservative Republicans, the latest Gallup poll shows that it had the same effect whether the listener was Republican or Democrat.
Even after the speech, the poll suggests attitudes have changed little despite the candidate’s effort to address concerns on how Mormonism would affect his decisions as president.
Eighteen percent of both groups say they would not vote for a Mormon, similar to the 20 percent to 21 percent that gave the same response in March.
A February 2007 Gallup poll, however, showed Republicans were more opposed to voting for a Mormon candidate. Thirty percent of Republicans compared to 23 percent of Democrats expressed opposition.
Gallup concluded by commenting: “Up to 14 percent of Republicans have supported Romney for his party’s nomination at various times since June 2007. Still, he clearly faces some anti-Mormon opposition to his candidacy within the Republican Party as well as among the general public.”
The Gallup Poll also found additional biases potentially harmful to other candidates from both major parties, including: 4 percent of Americans (including 3 percent Republicans) say they would not vote for a Catholic; 5 percent would not vote for a black; 12 percent would not vote for a woman; and 12 percent would not vote for a Hispanic.
In addition, a Gallup poll earlier this year found 28 percent of Americans say they would not vote for someone who is on his third marriage, and 40 percent would not vote for someone who is 72 years of age.
Results from the latest survey are based on telephone interviews conducted Dec. 6-9, 2007, with 1,027 national adults, aged 18 and older.
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wow jester, now if that isn't narrow-minded ignorance I don't know what is!
But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
2nd Corinthians 11:12-15
"What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same" (D&C 1:38).
What did I expect? Something not quite so "fake". But then, I do expect too much.
What were you expecting to find? The gospel doesn't change from one scripture to another. It is the same to whomever the Lord reveals it.
Wow...i should read your scriptures. its amazing how the BOM takes actual scriptures from the Bible and uses them (for authenticity sake of course. how else are people gonna believe that God gave the BOM if you don't throw some truth in there) to propigate a lie.
"precept upon precept" Isaiah 28:13
"from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have" strikingly similar to Matthew 25:29 which says "For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away."
"For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have" (2 Nephi 28:30).
Good luck then.
be that as it may, I will still stick with the one and only true Word of God. We've got a Bible store just down the street filled with books that mention Jesus and even quote and use the Bible as a refrence, but it doesn't make them right or true. To look at whether their message is supported by the Bible is the true test (not just whether they threw "Jesus" and "God" in there from time to time or used a few scriptures....Purpose Driven Life is a good example of someone using the Word of God erroneously and promoting false doctrine)...that is where I compare ALL teachings. And the BOM, although it uses God and Jesus as their point of authenticity, doesn't make it true.
When people post a scripture, I always check the reference first before i read. If it's not from the Bible, I usually ignore it.
The Book of Mormon is the word of God, as is the Bible. It talks of Christ, preaches of Christ, teaches of Christ and His atonement. An name or title of Christ appears every 1.7 verses. It preaches repentance, and faith on our Lord and Savior. It is another testament of Jesus Christ. I will live by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God, not just the ones I pick and choose.
hesa, try to stick with the Word of God. Quoting the BOM is like quoting from The Lord of the Rings trilogy. Means absolutely nothing.
And I'd like to agree with you about salvation, but unfortunately it goes against the Word of God. which is what i live by.
Salvation cannot come until there is a judgment. The final judgment will not come until after the millenium. Christ will be that Final Judge (Rom. 14:10).
God does all those things for us because of His transcendent love for us. It is not something that we have "earned" because we think we've been saved. Christ healed many lepers, blind, etc., and not one of them had been "saved." He just did it for them. If we show even a seed of faith, then God is able to work miracles in our lives. That is not because we have been saved and exalted in His kingdom, but is a demonstration of God's love in our lives, and an evidence of our faith in Him. If it were possible to be saved in an instant, then what would the purpose be for this life? Why would people stick around? People would be killing themselves right and left once they had been saved just to get out of this fallen world. No, we must endure to the end. Receiving forgiveness of sin is a far cry from being saved in the kingdom of God. The steps are faith in Christ, repentence, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and receiving the gift of the holy ghost by the laying on of hands, after which we endure to the end following all of God's commandments.
"17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen" (2 Nephi 31:17-21).
So, salvation does not come until the end of days? And that all these things that God does for us (i.e delivering us from habits, freeing us from addictions, healing us, blessing us) is because of....?
being delivered, set free, healed and blessed does not bring salvation. Salvation brings those blessings. And if we are not saved until we have "endured" to the end, then something is wrong. And if we are not considered saved until we have accepted Jesus, been baptized, and filled with the Holy Spirit, then there is still something wrong. I have known people who were enslaved to drugs, porn, alcohol, etc, who were delivered as soon as they gave their heart to God. They hadn't been baptized in water or Spirit yet. Many of them had gone years after their salvation without receiving the Holy Spirit's baptism...and yet God used them and blessed them. How do you explain that? Apparently, God's view of being a child of His is different from yours.
A person gets saved only insomuch as they quit fornicating, quit lying, cheating, etc., AND have faith in Jesus Christ, are baptized by immersion for the remission of sins by one having the authority of God, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and endure to the end by daily repenting, following all the commandments of God, and feasting on the words of Christ which He has given through the scriptures and the living prophets and apostles.
That is how a person is saved.
So, if a person "gets saved" and does nothing, except quits fornicating, quits lying, cheating, etc etc...but doesn't actually "do and works"...is that person saved? Through his "salvation" he becomes a changed man....but he's not truly saved...
Salvation is simple and easy. God commands us to do certain things, and we obey. That's all there is to it. The commandments are not hard. His grace is sufficient for even the weakest of souls. And the best part is, we are not required to become perfect in this mortal life. We will have imperfections and we will fall short. All He requires is that we do our absolute best, repenting daily, and endure to the end.
I do agree that we do some things in the name of convenience, one of which is thinking that salvation comes by the profession of a few words of the tongue. That is a little too convenient. If it was that easy, we wouldn't have thousands of pages of scripture to lead us and guide us, and God wouldn't call prophets to reveal His will. God would just have said, "Just say you believe in me, and you'll be saved!" But He didn't just say that. He said, have faith in me, repent, and be baptized, and follow me. Do the things you have seen Christ do. Receive His image in your countenance. Obey His commandments. The Bible is replete with commandments, and specifically those that apply to us under the New Covenant.
God does give gifts, but He does not give them to whomever on whatever terms. He has very specific terms of the covenant which He makes with us; it is a two-way agreement. "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine..." (Matt. 7:6). The gift of eternal life is the greatest pearl of all.
what's pointless about just accepting Christ's sacrifice on the cross? if someone gives you a gift...say a new car...do you need to drive it to prove that its yours? Granted, it will be of little use to you if you dont, but it will still be yours. And just because someone says "you know, I've never seen you drive that car. I don't believe it's yours" doesn't mean it's not.
Those who have accepted Christ's gift of eternal life have been given a "car". Some will choose to take advantage of it and use it all the time for His purpose and glory. And they will find pleasure in using the "car". They will be blessed by using the "car" Some will use it occasionally. And some will let it set in their garage and just admire it. But they all have the car.
Why is it that mankind has to make things more complicated than they are? In our attempt to make our life more "easy" we actually complicate it. automated this and that...computers....etc etc...and when they go haywire, it make it even more complicated then if we never had them. Its funny..i was at a convenience store the other day. the power had gone down so their computer/register didn't work. that would have brought that whole store to a standstill. lost money...and it takes money and time to fix it...
But what was even funnier was the cashier had somehow got the cash drawer open and was trying to do transactions the old fashion way. she was so used to being automated she was having a very difficult time keeping track and adding and subtracting. She never had to do that before.
Why do we do things in the name of convenience, that only makes things more difficult?
Repent..yes. That is part of salvation. does it irk you to think that God could make salvation so simple and easy?
Christ's atonement is also a gift, but we must repent in order to make it efficacious in our lives.
No, what would be pointless is to say that anyone can be saved by saying a few words with their lips, and then do whatever they please during their lifetime (eat, drink, and be merry). That would make Christ's death and work pointless.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift (freely given without merit or work) of God is eternal life. To deny the salvation of the cross through faith, negates the work of the cross and Jesus' death is pointless.
Not everyone will be saved. That is a man made lie to appease the conscience.
The fallacy comes in thinking that by only speaking some words with our lips that we will be exalted in the highest kingdom of God. Such a belief is an evil and false sectarian doctrine of man, which is damning in its effects. It makes man believe that he must do near to nothing in order to receive God's greatest reward, which basically denies Christ and His atonement.
"They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof" (JS-H 1:19).
We believe that all people, except the sons of Perdition, will be saved in a kingdom of God. Thus, all will receive a measure of salvation. We believe that there are multiple mansions there (John 14:2), but only the most valiant and obedient will be exalted in the highest degree of glory and will receive the full potential of their existence. It is exaltation that we seek, not only salvation. There is a difference.
The LDS Church believes in salvation through faith and works, it requires BOTH as James describes so well. Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, but faith that provokes us to obedience. God requires us to obey His commandments. That is exactly how we have faith in Him. The commandments are not optional or beside the point. They are the point. They are pivotal to our progression in God's plan of salvation, as they have been since Adam.
Ok. so you believe that we are saved by grace through faith. We show (or prove) our salvation by our works. I agree 100%. But, just because someone doesn't "prove" their salvation, it doesn't mean theyre not saved. It just means their reward in heaven will not be as great.
But you've confused me a little. All the other LDS people who have come my way have pushed salvation through works. You're the first that's believed in salvation through faith, with works being the fruit of our salvation.
Yes, we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. And how do we display our faith, or belief, in God?
"3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 Jn. 2:3-4).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15).
No, justification and salvation are not the same. We are justified by obeying God's commandments, repenting of our sins, and thereby partaking of the atonement of Christ, by which we receive a remission of our sins and become "justified" before the Father. Thus we are justified by our faith in Christ (Rom. 5:1). Justification by the law of Moses was fulfilled and supplanted by the law of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which we must now obey. It is only then that we can be saved.
Many times when the apostles spoke of justification, it was in relationship to the law of Moses which was still a very current topic in those days. Thus, sometimes they say that we are not justified by the law or by works. They were referring to the law of Moses, not the law of the gospel. We do not believe in justification by the law of Moses, but justification by faith on the Son of God, Jesus Christ, which should provoke us to obey His commandments, laws, and ordinances.
hesadanza...
You believe that "justification" and "salvation" are the same?
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. - Mark 16:16
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. - Matt. 7:21
if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10
How are you saved if you have not participated in the ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ which He established for that very purpose?
So, since I am saved, and being led into all truth by His Spirit, and being used by Him, and blessed by Him, why in the world do I need to be LDS?
Yes. Every person who has ever been, has been a child of God.
but according to LDS, am I a child of God? Since I don't believe in Joseph Smith, and that I'm saved by grace and not of works?
Every child of God is worth a chance. God is no respecter of persons.
ouch summa! I almost took offense at that. but then I realize that your argument is just as lame as what you claim mine is. and then it's actually quite amusing. like listening to a four year old argue...you try to take them serious, but you can't help but laugh....
Hesadanza, I can't believe you converse with someone as immature and irrational as this jester guy, he is just throwing our accusations about your religion because he is either too uneducated or just too childish to post something original and imformative. His posts are laced with innacuracies and Im sure the guy reads just enough church material to just try to use it against you. He is not worth your time. Typical Anti-Mormon scum.
Isaiah 29
"13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
17 Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?
18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
22 Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine."
But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
2nd Corinthians 11_12-14
Yes, give me proof, proof, proof. What about faith, faith, faith? "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it..." (Matt. 12:39; Matt. 16:4) "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb. 11:1).
"They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof" (JS-H 1:19).
I could give you many Bible scriptures that testify of the prophet Joseph Smith, but you would still not believe. Unfortunately many have been so inculcated in the doctrines and inventions of men that they are blinded by the truth. They cannot see it for what it is, and must compare it to their false interpretations. However, the pure in heart shall see God. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27).
I know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's church on the earth today. The doctrines seem different or peculiar because it is the truth that has been lost for so long upon the earth that no one longer recognizes it. The doctrines of men have so saturated Christiandom that the LDS Church seems out of place. But the Lord's church has always been peculiar. Never has the truth been popular in the world. It has always been rejected, the prophets have been stoned, and the Saints have been killed. Christ Himself is the most sublime example of the truth being rejected, trampled upon, to the point where the people literally killed their God. If you are looking for a popular church, it most likely is not the true church of Jesus Christ.
Joseph Smith had the first vision in 1820, and God the Father and Jesus Christ literally appeared to the prophet as two glorious personages of flesh and bones, and they did in reality speak to him.
What I find amazing is that the Mormon believe that they will live forever physically on other planets. They will remain married, procreating......forever.....
In the past 4000 years or so, this world is becoming overcroweded. And that is even with a human life expectancy of under 100 years. How long would it take to overpopulate a planet with immortals?
It should take a while, though, actually figure it out. You see, the Bible says that after the resurrection people will no longer be given in marriage. Most of the Mormons I've talked to agree with that, saying that when you are married before you die, it transfers over to "the afterlife", you remain married....but you can't get married after you have been resurrected.
Only those married before will be married after.
So you have people who have been married before, and remain married after, procreating for eternity. But the problem is, that none of their children can procreate. The Mormons speak that after the resurrection you will have all your male and female body parts (for obvious reasons of procreating). And I assume that their children will to, but they will never be able to use them. Because they will not be able to get married, and sex outside of marriage is a sin. So what's the purpose of beiing "anatomically correct" if you can't "function"?
It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it.” Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886], 4: 259 - 260.
Sick.
But if we are married for time and for all eternity and it is sealed upon our heads by those who have the authority so to seal, and if we then keep our covenants and are faithful to the end, we shall come forth in the resurrection from the dead and receive the following promised blessings:
"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956], 2: 62.”
That goes against the first commandment " Thats the same attitude that got Satan kicked from heaven....
Of the four great standard works of the Church—the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price—I would particularly urge you to read again and again the Book of Mormon and ponder and apply its teachings. The Book of Mormon was referred to by the Prophet Joseph Smith as "the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man [and woman] would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 2nd ed. rev., 7 vols. [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1932-51], 4:461.)” Listen to a Prophet's Voice [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1990], pg 15.
Even more correct than the Bible....
JD 2:75-76; “The words contained in this Bible are merely a history of what is gone by; it was never given to guide the servant of God in the course he should pursue, any more than the words and commandments of God, given to a generation under one set of circumstances, would serve for another generation under another set of circumstances…The Bible is not a sufficient guide; it is only the history of the people who lived 1800 years ago. The history of our Church in this day, presents the scenes and transactions of this people—the revelations and words of God to them…”
Mormon 8:18; “For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity”.
D&C 130:22; “The Father has a body of flesh, and bones as tangible as man’s” Articles of Faith: “We believe in a God who is Himself progressive…whose perfection consists in eternal advancement…”
What? Even among the Mormon teachings (outside of the Bible) they can't get it right....
So the Bible says that withiin ONE DAY Adam and Eve would die...and one day is as a thousand years...so they died within a thousand years....so that means that in actuallity when the Bible says day...it means a thousand years...so Noah was in the ark for 40,000years, and Jesus was dead for 3000. Interestiing....
Flesh....and blood....cannot inherit the Kingdome of God...but bone can. (Because flesh cannot inherit the kingdom) So we will all be skeletons?
Malachi 3:6 says "For I am the LORD, I change not…” So if He was a man at one point, then He does change.
Mormonism is evil because it humanizes God, and deifies man. That's sick!
And one question I have...Milton Hunter said "if we accept the great law of eternal progression, we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today. Then how did He become glorified and exalted and attain His present status of Godhead?....God undoubtedly took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth and as He became acquainted with each new verity He righteously obeyed it." Where did these laws originate? Were they "just there"? That is inane. God created the laws of truth. He is truth. John 14:6 says " Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." So, now we understand the God is truth. And does not change, so He has always been truth.
John 14:16-17..."And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."
John 15:26, John 16:13,
Romans 1:25 says "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." The truth of God...so God did create truth.
I could go on, but we all see that Milton was incorrect.
Psalms 90:2 says "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." So we know that he is eternal. With no beginning and no end.
Psalms 103:17 and Psalms 106:48 confirm this.
Man, in the flesh, is finite. Man has a beginning and has an end.
Again, Adam was 930 years old when he died physically, which to God was within a day. So, yes, they died physically and spiritually the day they ate of the forbidden fruit. But Christ redeemed us from Adam's Fall, through His atonement we are redeemed spiritually, and through His resurrection we are redeemed physically. We are punished for our own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. But through Christ we can be forgiven of our own sins also.
God created man in the flesh, or how else are we here today? When do you think they became flesh?
Flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom, you are right. But flesh and bones can, Christ being the example (Luke 24:39).
"Your math is backwards. Christ was in the tomb for only a millisecond to God, as was Noah in the ark in God's time. The entire history of the earth will have only taken 7 days to God."
And Adams and Eve died within (God's) milleseconds after they ate the fruit. Because their spirits (who they are) died as soon as they ate the fruit.
God is a spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
Just because God is in the form of a man does not mean that He sins. Adam and Eve did not sin until they transgressed God's law. Christ was made flesh and He did not sin once in His life. Christ still has a body of flesh and bones, and He still has not sinned (Luke 24:39). So to equate flesh to sin is incorrect. God is perfect, and sinless.
No, Satan is the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4). But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord (Josh. 24:15).
God's day = 1000 years of our time
Your math is backwards. Christ was in the tomb for only a millisecond to God, as was Noah in the ark in God's time. The entire history of the earth will have only taken 7 days to God.
So, since god created Adam and Eve in His image, then He can sin too. That's good to know. That must be true...afterall, he has a "son" named Satan.
And since god is flesh and a man and has male organs, then he must be able to procreate. So you're probbly going to tell me that he had sex with Mary.
And since he is a man, then he really can sin.
But my God is a Spirit. He is the one and only God. He has no beginning. He has no end. He had only one Son, Jesus Christ. He is not a man that He can sin. And flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. My God is not the God of a church, but He is the God of a people. He is the God of ANY who calls upon His name. He is not RCC, LDS,SBC, pentacost, methodist, presbetyrian, SDA, etc. He is the God of those who walk in His Spirit.
Now, I understand that the god you serve is different. He is flesh, mortal, corruptable, impotent, and worldly. That is your choice if you want to serve him. He is the god of this world.
"Any man that God reveals His will to the world through is a prophet."
There are many non-LDS prophets of God on this earth.
Show me the Biblical scriptures supporting your claim that the old Testament patriarchs were ordained as prophets with the laying on of hands. And if they were prophets, then why are they not refered to as prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc, etc.
Oh, and Noah was on the ark for 40,000 years! That is a looooooong time!
God calls His prophets by the laying on of hands by one who has authority to speak the will of God to people on earth. There is no contradiction there.
How do you know that Moses had no hands laid upon him? Or Joshua, David, Solomon? From latter-day revelation we know that Moses was ordained by the laying on of hands by his father-in-law, Jethro (D&C 84:6).
Yes, Jesus did call his disciples by the laying on of hands, for it specifically says that He ordained them (Mark 3:14; John 15:16). Ordination is not just a verbal calling. It always takes place by the laying on of hands (Num. 27:23; Deut. 34:9; Acts 13:3; 1 Tim. 4:14).
Adam and Eve sinned because they were given their free agency, the agency to choose for themselves to obey or disobey. God did not create them sinful. They chose to sin of their own free will.
Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God in these latter-days. God still calls prophets and apostles.
hesadanza...
Nice job of screwing with the scriptures. So Jesus was in the grave for three thousand years? Hey! There's another something to start a cult on. I better be careful though, some LDS "prophet" might actually believe that and have a new "revelation".
And, as i read in another article, you said that a prophet could only be one by the laying on of hands.....hmmmm...now your saying that whoever speaks the will of God is His prophet. Moses had no hands laid on him...neither did Joshua, David, Solomon, etc, etc....And when Jesus called his disciples, he didn't lay hands on them...he simple said "Go and become fishers of men".
And if Adams and Eve weren't created sinful, why did they sin? They were perfect and sinless. So they couldn't have sinned.
Again, the BOM is the word of Joe, not God. And he is a false prophet.
Interestingly, Adam and Eve did die the day they transgressed. To God, one day is one thousand years of our time (Abr. 3:4). So, yes, in the day (God's day) that Adam and Eve partook, they physically died. Adam was 930 years old when he died (Gen. 5:5). God was not lying. Adam and Eve became mortal the day they transgressed God's law. Before that day, they were immortal and eternal beings who walked in God's presence. So they died physically and spiritually when they fell. Hence the need for Christ's sacrifice AND resurrection, to overcome the spiritual and physical deaths, respectively.
Any man that God reveals His will to the world through is a prophet. So, yes, Moses, Joshua, and the rest of the authors of the Bible were prophets. Apostles are also called as prophets, seers, and revelators.
No, the apostles weren't LDS, because they didn't live in the latter days. But they were members of the church of Jesus Christ, which God has restored today.
I will refer to the Book of Mormon because it is God's word. I'm sorry if you will not accept it.
Again, God reveals His will to the world through His servants, the prophets.
Yes, I can say that "God said this and that" and "Joseph Smith said this and that", because Joseph Smith is a false prophet. So why would I compare him to God? That would slap God in the face!
The Pentatuach...Moses is commonly accredited as the author was not a prophet.
Joshua....Joshua, the author, was not a prophet
The author of 1st and 2nd Samuel, and 1st and 2nd Kings is unknown...
Both Chronicles and Ezra believed to be written by Ezra...not a prophet
The author of Esther is unknown...
The author of Job is unknown...
Psalms may have a number of different authors...most of which are not prophets
Proverbs, as well as Song of Solomon, written by Solomon was not a prophet.
Of course, all the prophetic books were written by prophets.
None of the Gospels were written by prophets...Luke was a gentile...and theologians say that his role, other than the Gospel, was that of a historian. That he was just a helper and to record what was going on.
The rest of the New Testament was written by apostles (which I understand the LDS always groups those two together, although prophets and apostles are two distinct callings.) John could be considered a prophet since he did write Revelation. Or it may be that God just chose him to reveal something to. There are no other records concerning any other prophetic duties that John accomplished, other than the book of Revelations.
So, to say that everything came through his prophets and apostles (apostle is a new testament term and has nothing to do with the Old Testament patriarchs) is wrong. God uses whom he will. But you are right, we would not have the New Testament if it weren't for His apostles.
And, as I recall...they weren't LDS.
I refer only to the Bible because that is the ony common ground between the LDS and Christians. Christians do not acknowlege the BOM so using it as a reference means nothing to us.
Therein lies the confusion. You are refering to the Westminster Confession of Faith....not the Nicene Decree. Please quote the correct document the first time.
And if God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die THE DAY they ate of the fruit....why didn't they? Because God knew who THEY were...which is spirit...and their spirit died. Hence, the need for Jesus' sacrifice.
Everything that we have from God has come through His prophets and apostles. So, no, you can't say "God said this and this," and "Joseph said this and this", for it is the same. God speaks through His prophets, or we would not have the Bible or Book of Mormon today.
God did not create Adam and Eve as spirits in the Garden of Eden. They were physical, or I'm not here today. Why do you say they were spirits?
The Nicene Creed was amended several times, including the Athanasian and Chalcedonian creeds. The latest amendment in the Westminster Confession of Faith in 1646 states, "There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, INVISIBLE, without body, parts, or passions." This is false doctrine. God can be seen, He has been seen, and He will be seen again when the Lord returns at His second coming.
hesadanza...
By the way...the Nicene DOES NOT state that God cannot be seen. I would appreciate it if you would actually knew what you were talking about.
But that is just the point of being able to see God. God is a spirit. If He is otherwise, show me in the Bible where it says so. And please don't use the scripture from Genesis about man being made in his image....we were created in His image...as a spirit.
So, what we have here is a stalemate. You can neither prove your stand nor disprove mine. And i cannot prove my view, nor disprove yours. So, neither of us can say that we are right, for there is equal evidence for both parties.
Now, you could say "Joseph Smith said this and this and this....." and I could retort "Well, God said this and this and this...." And God would supercede Joseph (if you truly are a follower of God and not of a man). But I'm sure you will see the foolishness of such a venture.
Job 19:26 - "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God"
Matt. 5:8 - "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."
2 Ne. 9:4 - "For I know that ye have searched much, many of you, to know of things to come; wherefore I know that ye know that our flesh must waste away and die; nevertheless, in our bodies we shall see God."
etc...
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."
"Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."
And whatever this Nicene creed line is....if its purely LDS, means nothing to me because it's false doctrine.
jester,
The Nicene creed states that God is unseeable. That is false doctrine.
Moses and Jacob both state in the Bible that they saw God face to face, and Moses specifically adds "as one speaketh to his friend." Sometimes they saw His face, and other times they did not. Those were prophets, who speak personally with God.
2nd Corinthians 5:16
"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. "
1st John 4:11-12
"Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."
I understand what you are saying about Moses seeing God "face to face" in Exodus 33:11, but then you read on further to verses 20-23 that say
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."
so something is amiss here.
And what is the garbage about not being able to see spirits. You can see spirits. They can manifest themselves visibly without any physical body. So, to say that you HAVE to be physical to be seen is incorrect. That's what God did on mount Sinai.
And where does it say that you have to speak to God "face to face". When did Elijah, or Elisha ever speak to God face to face? God, who is a spirit, spoke to their spirit (their true nature) to reveal His words to them. So, then, according to you, Elisha, Elijah, John the Baptist, and Jesus were not prophets. Only Joseph Smith, because he "spoke to God face to face".
A prophet speaks with God face to face. Those you mentioned deny He even has a face.
So is the gentlman I've seen post on here with the screen name "Prophet". I've read what he's written. He is a very wise and Godly man. And he speaks the word of God. I wouldn't doubt if jc4me and TheWatch were too. Even annieforjesus.
So is Hesmal.
Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and we have a living prophet and twelve apostles on the earth today.
Hold on then. Let me check my Bible.......
Wow! Yep, Joseph Smith is a false prohet.
Ummm.... no.
Who flagged Prophet? And why?
hesadanza...
His fruits are that He walks according to the Spirit and the scriptures. Love, wisdom, compassion, faith, and justice. Patience, meekness, kindness. His words come from God, they are confirmed by the Word of God (the Bible). And God uses him mightily.
But Joseph's fruit is deception, pride, arrogance, deceit. His words are contrary to the Word of God (the BIble) and he seeks to de-glorify God.
How do you know Hesmal is a true prophet? Where are his fruits?
Ok...then Hesmal was correct. Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
That's what Christ said, yes (Matt. 7:15-20).
So, you can tell whether he's a true prophet by his fruits?
Tell you what jester, why don't you give me the revelations so I can read them, tell me where Hesmal lives, and what he's done? Surely by his fruits we can tell if he is a true prophet.
Right...
hesadanza,
Thats because it is not an ancient book. It is being written as we speak under the guidance of the Holy Spirit by His prophet. It is His new revelation that must be brought about before His return.
jester,
I don't know what you're talking about because neither Hesmal nor Saltoric return anything whatsoever on Google.
I do know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet that was chosen by God to restore the Lord's church to the earth. He was a prophet just like Moses, Abraham, Enoch, Malachi, Jeremiah, or Isaiah were prophets.
Hesadanza,
We will have to continue our discussions later because I am disscussing a more important article here on the CP - "The Pope’s Anti-Political Politics" with truthandjustice1.
And by the way, hesadanza, why are you such a bigot when it comes to Christianity? Where's your tolerance?
hesadanza,
That scripture comes from the Book of Saltoric. Written by the prophet Hesmal. It's the continuation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed to Hesmal. That particular passage is refering to Joseph Smith and what God asked Hesmal to do.
Online4Him,
You don't have to accept the LDS teachings of a Mormon candidate. That is not what you are voting for. You can disagree with the religion. That's ok. But when you are prejudiced against a candidate politically because their faith is different than your own, that is bigotry.
Since when did the Smithsonian Institute never make a mistake? The Smithsonian is not a person. If the director of the Smithsonian Institute ran for president of the United States, I would NOT be intolerant towards him/her just because of the Institute's views of the Book of Mormon. That is irrelevant! I disagree with some of the assertions of the Smithsonian Institute, yes. Does that make the Institute a bad thing? No. Does that mean every person that is associated with it is evil? No. Does that mean I will never visit the Smithsonian and admire its collections? No!
What about the National Geographic Society? Do I disagree with some of their findings regarding the Book of Mormon? Yes. Would I be prejudiced against someone from the National Geographic Society running for governor of my state? No! Would I not subscribe to National Geographic magazine because of their findings on the Book of Mormon? No. Would I cancel my subscription to the National Geographic channel on my cable TV because of it? No! That is entirely beside the point.
We can agree to disagree, and still support good people with good values who do good things.
Hezdanza,
You speak of intolerance and bigotry simply because I will not accept the LDS's teachings or a Mormon candidate. I have repeatedly said that I do not agree with you position and obviously you do not agree with me. Now; you have stated that -
The Smithsonian Institute of Washington, D.C., USA, of the planet Earth, is wrong.
Now, should I consider you an bigot because you do not agree with or support this institution's position?
No. That is bigotry.
I don't agree with Jewish doctrine. Does that mean that I wouldn't vote for a Jew? No.
I don't agree with Islam doctrine. Does that mean that I wouldn't vote for a Muslim? No.
I don't agree with Catholic doctrine. Does that mean that I wouldn't vote for a Catholic? No.
I don't agree with the religious beliefs of many groups, but I do not discriminate against them when they run for political office. Many of these groups teach good things to their adherents, and they are upstanding members of society. They seek to do good, and follow the Constitution. If I voted against any one of them because their religion is different than mine, I would be a bigot.
You don't have to endorse or support another gospel than the one you believe in. That is not what you are voting for! You are NOT voting for a preacher or a religion! You are voting for a person. You are voting for a politician. And the Constitution clearly states that there will be no establishment of a specific religion. They will not, and can not, force a state-run religion upon you. It is not constitutional. It is the values that we stand for as a country and as a people that makes it possible to vote for people of all different denominations. Their denomination doesn't have to agree with mine for me to vote for them. That is irrelevant.
Hezdanza,
Sound biblical doctrine requires Christians to refute any other gospel other than one we have already received. Galatians 1:6-9. To say someone is a bigot because they will not endorse or support another gospel is absurd.
Bigotry: A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own. Intolerance toward those of different creeds or religious affiliations. Prejudice and/or discrimination against one or all members of a particular group based on negative perceptions of their beliefs and practices or on negative group stereotypes.
Hesadanza,
Bigotry, no; holding on to sound biblical doctrine, yes!
Chris333,
You ask some good questions. How can we tell if the Spirit is witnessing of the truth? Let me first say that there is much good that many religions of the world do. They help people have faith in God. They teach people to do good to all man, and to love their neighbor. They preach the basic tenets of Christ's gospel, and to believe in Him. There is some truth in every religion in the world. The Spirit will testify of the truth and good of every one of these religions. We believe that anything that is good comes from God, and there is much good that many religions of the world are involved in. The humanitarian efforts alone of many organizations are doing what Christ would do in helping their fellow man.
However, there is a difference between some truth, and all truth. All truth exists only in the one church that Christ established when He was on the earth in the flesh. He established one doctrine, one baptism, and one faith. He has promised us that if we ask Him, He will manifest the truth to us. He wants us to be members of His church, and to partake of the blessings He has prepared for those that follow Him.
"3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever" (Moroni 10:3-7).
I have followed this promise. I have read the Book of Mormon. Studied it carefully. And prayed many times to know if it was true, having faith in Christ, and real intent. And the Spirit has witnessed to me that it is true. And if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith must have been a prophet. And if Joseph Smith was a prophet, then the church which he restored today must be the true church of Jesus Christ on the earth.
Also, the links that I gave to the FairWIKI on the historical reliability of the Book of Mormon has many references at the bottom of the pages to non-Mormon scholars.
Prophet,
Yes, faith is evidence, you are right. But you can't have that evidence until you first have the faith.
God has a spirit, but that is not the end of his nature. Just as God is not only love, or only a devouring fire, as the scriptures tell us, but those are only certain qualities of Him. They are not His all-inclusive nature. The scripture you quote says, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." Does that mean that I must leave my physical body in order to worship Him "in spirit"? No, for we have spirits too. It is one aspect of our nature.
I testify that God is an exalted, glorified, perfected, and resurrected man. He has a physical body. He knows you, and He knows me. He is our Father. He loves us very much. We have been commanded to know Him, for that is the way to obtain eternal life. He is not an unseeable, unknowable, incomprehensible, force that fills all space. How could we "know" something as impersonal as that? The only things that we can truly "know" are those which are actual people that we can speak with.
jester,
Question. Where did you get that "scripture"?
Online4Him,
Again, we do not claim to be "historic" Christians. We don't believe post-New Testament Christian history. But we are Christians - we believe in Christ and His teachings. We return to the teachings that Christ Himself taught, and those that were believed and taught by the early Christians shortly after His crucifixion.
It doesn't matter to me which candidate you endorse. But if you don't endorse them soley because of their religion, then I don't see how you can not consider that bigotry.
Hezdanza,
I am going to have to ask you what you mean by the Holy Spirit testifies to the truth of the LDS church. There are many others who would claim that the Holy Spirit testifies to the truth of their organization, I have known Christians, unification members, Jehovah's witnesses and others who use the Holy Spirit to justify their faith. I do believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, however I also know that the Holy Spirit is not going to lead so many people in opposite and contradictory directions. So the simple fact of the matter is that many people are using the Holy Spirit for their own purposes, whether or not they sincerely believe in what they are doing. Do you really mean that the Holy Spirit is telling you this and if so how?
By the way if you are going to cite sources to prove the existence of the historical reliability of the book of mormon then you are going to have to have scholars outside of the mormon faith and its sponsoring.
hesadanza
You said "You always want evidence. You want proof. If I could hand you the golden plates today you would still not believe, because what the physical eyes see is not as ingrained upon the soul as a witness of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit, and the Spirit only, that testifies of truth." My faith is the evidence that I seek. That is what that scripture means. Faith (my faith...faith in Him) is the evidence of what cannot be seen. And it is a witness of the Holy Spirit that testifies of truth. And the truth it testifies to is "God is a spirit". He is omnipotent, omipresent, eternal, with no beginning and no end. That is the truth that the Holy Spirit bares witness to.
What methods should Christians use to persuade? Ridicule, acrimony? Criticism? Denunciation?
What then differentiates them from anyone else?
So, it is apparent by the scripture I just read, that Joseph Smith was a false prophet that God wanted removed. Knowing that, i really don't think Moronism has much credibility anymore.
Hesadanza,
I believe that most Americans know the difference between historic Christianity and a faith that has demonstrated itself to be aberrant at best. It is this very reason why most will not endorse a candidate like Mitt Romney.
Anyone can read the research that has been done in these areas and see that there is evidence to the contrary.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." -Hebrews 11:1
You always want evidence. You want proof. If I could hand you the golden plates today you would still not believe, because what the physical eyes see is not as ingrained upon the soul as a witness of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit, and the Spirit only, that testifies of truth.
We won't let others desecrate that which we own, which is sacred. That is why we don't allow people to go destroy the Hill Cumorah.
Nothing will prove the church's demise, because it is the Lord's work. It is His church. He runs it. He restored it. He is at the head.
Hesadanza,
Sorry, it is your Mormon sponsored web page that is wrong my friend. Why does not the LDS church do an extensive excavation of the hill Comorah or allow others to do it for them. They will not do this because such an excavation would prove their demise.
As it is written in Saltoric, Chapter one and starting in verse three:
"And the Word of the Lord came to Hesmal saying "Be wary of false prophets. For there is one among you who spreads lies and leads my people astray. The false prophet Joseph has corrupted my Word and devours my children like the ravenous lion feasts on the carcass of the deer. He is a wolf, sneaking through my sheep, seeking ones whom he may lead away. His words are full of guile and deceit. There is death in his words. For sake of my children, remove the prophet of Baal from the midst of my children. Speak truth to them that they may live. Spread salve upon their wounds for they are unto death, and pray that my mercy will find them." So the Prophet Hesmal sought out the false prophet all his days, but could not find him for all his cunning. And Hesmal was distraught, and hid himself in a cave. But the Lord found him and said "Why are you hiding? Did I not give you a decree. Why have you disobeyed me?"
And Hesmal replied, "I am nothing before you, my God. I have searched and searched, but have not found the prophet of Baal."
So God said "Then go to the children whom he has decieved and speak to them and pray for them that their eyes will be opened. That they may remove the curse that is upon them. That they may hear my voice once more." So Hesmal departed and did what God had commanded him.
Sorry, the Smithsonian Institute of Washington, D.C., USA, of the planet Earth, is wrong. As are the anti-Mormon sources where you got these from:
Silk - http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Plants#Silk
Horses -
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Animals#Horse
Steel -
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Metals#Steel
Iron -
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Metals#Iron
Coins -
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Coins
Donkey -
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Animals
Cow -
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Animals#Cow
Swine -
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Animals#Swine
Barley -
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Plants#Barley
Yes, EVIDENCE DOES EXIST FOR THE ABOVE MENTIONED ITEMS. Just read the links.
Hesadanza,
Your response does not solve the dilemma; the Mormon account of how Joseph Smith went about translating the Book of Mormon would seem to disallow any possibility of any errors or the need for changes. But still there were more than 3,913 changes between the original edition of the Book of Mormon published in 1830 and the ones printed and issued through the mid-1970s. The 1981 edition introduced between one and two hundred additional word changes.
Choosing only to rely upon Mormon recourses does not give you an accurate and sufficient overview of the issues. Surely, this is not how one goes about researching truth; one must be willing to examine all proposing arguments to determine who is telling the truth.
According to the Smithsonian Institute of Washington, D.C., USA, the following items (which, according to The Book of Mormon, existed in the Americas between 600 B.C. and 421 A.D.) have absolutely no evidence for existing in the America's during the time in question:
Silk—Alma 4:6, Nephi 13:7, Alma 1:29
Horses—Enos 1:21, Alma 18:9, 3 Nephi 3: 1, Nephi 18:25
Steel—Jarom 1:8, 2 Nephi 5:15,16, 1 Nephi 4:9, 16:18
Iron—2 Nephi 5:15, 20:34, Jarom 1:8, Mosiah 11:8
Coins—Alma 11:5-19
Donkeys—1 Nephi 18:25, Mosiah 5:14, 12:5
Cattle, Cow, and Oxen—Enos 1:21; 3 Nephi 3:22, 6: 1 Nephi 18:25
Pigs—3 Nephi 7:8
Grain and Wheat—Mosiah 9:9; Helaman 11:17
If The Book of Mormon is true, certainly some evidence for the items mentioned above should have been unearthed by modern-day archeologists. But where are the objects of steel, iron, and brass that are mentioned throughout The Book of Mormon? Has the Mormon Church uncovered even one coin as mentioned in the book of Alma? Mormon 6:9-15 states that many thousands of men fought a great battle armed with swords, bows, arrows and axes, but have archaeologists discovered any of these items dating back to that time period on this continent? According to Ether 15:2, two million Jaredite peoples (men, women and children) were killed in battle, yet there is not a trace of this battle anywhere. Ether 15:15 claims that men, women, and children armed with shields, breastplates, and head plates, fought a great battle with much loss of life -- yet not one article of battle has been found to date.
Why does the Smithsonian Institution, the world's largest museum complex and research organization not accept the Book of Mormon’s historical accounts?
Online4Him,
Thank you for sharing that statement from the "History of the Church" volume. The correctness of the translation that the voice mentioned obviously did not include grammatical errors. Joseph Smith himself made editorial changes to the text after the first publication. If he had thought that it was absolutely correct and perfect then he would not have touched the text. Joseph Smith clearly recognized that in some places the scribes had not written down Joseph's dictation perfectly, and therefore corrected them.
Steve Benson was an apostate. It is pretty clear that he would be bitter against the church (Alma 47:36). Why don't you ask an actual active faithful member about what they think of the Book of Mormon and the church?
Did you know that over the last few decades that the number of ancient cities that have been discovered in Meso-America has exponentially increased? There are many many more than they once thought. The culture, customs, literature, and society of the Book of Mormon fits well into what is being learned of Meso-American history. Again, this is shown in the new DVDs from FARMS. Your statement that "there is NO physical evidence whatsoever to support your claims" is ignorant of the latest scholarship and is false.
Metallurgy - http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Metals#Metallurgy
Horses -
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Animals#Horse
Elephants -
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Animals#Elephant
I have read what other, non-Mormon, scholars have researched and found that they are not correct. I have analyzed it, prayed about it, and the church is still true.
Hesadanza,
I disagree. Did you know that following the translation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith said: “We heard a voice from out of the bright light above us, saying, “These plates have been revealed by the power of God, and they have been translated by the power of God. The translation of them which you have seen is correct”?
However, the reality is that there have been over 4,000 changes made in the Book of Moron since its original publication in 1830. Even articles in your own “Ensign” magazine concede that these changes have been made. How do you reconcile these changes with the testimony that the heavenly messenger speaking to Joseph Smith said the original translation was done by the power of God and was “correct”?
How do you reconcile these many changes with the testimony that the translation process – utilizing a “seer stone” – involved “individual characters” and “specific words”?
These passages for example have been altered from their original 1830 version: - 1Nephi 11:21, 1Nephi 11:32, 1Nephi 13:40 and Mosiah 21:28. I will not post a complete parallel comparison in order to save time and space but the first three passages have replaced “the eternal Father” with the “eternal Son”. The last text replaces the original “King Benjamin” with “King Mosiah”.
Steve Benson, the grandson of the late Mormon Church president and prophet Ezra Taft Benson, wrote the following indictment in a newspaper article:
“Troubling to us was the pathological unwillingness of the Mormon Church to deal forthrightly with its doctrine and history. Our personal study revealed that church canon, history, and scripture had been surreptitiously altered, skewed, rewritten, contradicted, and deleted.” – The Arizona Republic, 22 May 1994, p. C1.
In reference to the archeological evidence or in this case the lack thereof; there are over 30 or so major cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon but there is NO physical evidence whatsoever to support your claims. Civilizations leave behind tombs, temples, houses, records, architecture, coins, floors, and traces of their ultimate destruction. These cities have yet to be discovered by anthologists; why?
Many of the South American art work posted in you literature do not have any connection to the Mayan, Aztec, nor any other Empire. Also, these empires did not yet have the technology of Metallurgy as the Book of Mormon claims. Neither did these empires have horses nor elephants as your book claims.
It appears that you do not have an open mind if you are unwilling to analyze your own faith by what others have researched.
Online4Him,
And most of the manuscript errors in the Book of Mormon are also grammatical in nature and have not changed the essence of the books, yet our critics just love to harp on those. What's the difference?
There are two parts to the DVDs that FARMS at BYU has produced. The first is called "Journey of Faith: From Jerusalem to the Promised Land" and the second is called "Journey of Faith: The New World". Both of these DVDs tell the very latest LDS scholarship on the Book of Mormon, and how it fits into ancient Meso-American time and space.
I don't think I'll order anti-Mormon DVDs or anti-Mormon books. I get enough of what they have to offer on their websites.
How many times has the Bible been transcribed or translated? Hundreds of times. How many times has the Book of Mormon been transcribed or translated? It's been transcribed only once and translated only once. Even then there are still errors. I can only imagine the errors that have been introduced into the Bible because of transcription and translation. That is why the Book of Mormon is "more" correct than the Bible. It has not passed through as many hands. But both are still the word of God.
Correction: . . . . . . The Smithsonian Institute and the National Geographic Society have no personal biases but have merely stated the facts. :)
Hesadanza,
You have obviously misunderstood my original posting regarding the “churches”; did I ever say anything about denominations? Did I ever say these “branches” were not of the same church? You have exerted all this time and space to disprove something I never said!
Those councils used the same criteria that I mentioned earlier; why did not these same councils include the following Gnostic books:
The Gospel of Thomas, the Secret Book of James, Gnostic: Basilides, Naassene Fragment, Gospel of Mary, Dialogue of the Savior, Gospel of the Savior, Marcion, Epiphanes, Ophite Diagrams, Ptolemy, Gospel of Truth, Excerpts of Theodotus, Heracleon, Acts of Peter, and Acts of Thomas?
These and other books were excluded because they did not meet the 3 criteria! In regard to the reliability of the Bible; there are literally thousands upon thousands of reliable manuscripts while the Book of Mormon has none.
Most of the manuscript variants (errors) are grammatical in nature and have not changed the essence of the books. When we assess these 150,000 variants, we discover that 99 percent hold virtually no significance whatsoever. Many of them simply involve a missing letter in a word; some involve reversing the order of two words (such as “Christ Jesus” instead of “Jesus Christ”); some involve the absence of one or more insignificant words. So, no doctrine of the Christian faith or any moral commandment is affected by them.
Is the three hour DVD produced by the LDS church? The Smithsonian Institute and the National Geographic Society and no personal biases but have merely stated the facts. If you have an open mind; order the “The Bible vs The Book of Mormon” DVD by www.lhvm.org. Or purchase the book entitled “Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Mormons” by Ron Rhodes. These resources are very insightful.
Finally, as I mentioned earlier; the Bible can be supported by the thousands of manuscripts, accurate historical events, archeological findings, church fathers who quoted it, and hundred s of prophecies which have come to pass; while other prophecies have yet to be fulfilled. Therefore it is the height of folly for Mormons to suggest the Book of Mormon is more reliable than the Bible.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." -Hebrews 11:1
Online4Him,
Like I have said before, you or I will never be able to prove the Bible or Book of Mormon to be true. They are to be accepted on faith. God requires faith in Him, not signs or evidence or proof. God will never provide conclusive proof of either book's history, because that is not the way He works.
I just watched about 3 hours of documentary from FARMS' DVDs called "Journey of Faith" (in two parts), that documents all of the archeological findings that contribute to the validity of the Book of Mormon account, including geography, history, customs, culture, writings, artifacts, etc. They do not prove it to be true, but they go a long way in providing logic and reason behind the historical account of the Book of Mormon. But, of course, our critics will completely ignore it.
And don't think to use Dr. Nibley's as evidence that the Book of Mormon is false. Hugh Nibley has done more to show that it is a true, historical, ancient, Hebrew, linguistic, ritually correct book of scripture than any other scholar. Notice his remark, "All that we have to go on to date..." There has been much that LDS scholars have found since Nibley wrote "Since Cumorah" in the 60s.
Online4Him,
No, the "churches" collectively were the SAME church, not different denominations. They were different branches of the same church, they believed the same doctrine, read the same scriptures, taught the same salvation, and administrated the same ordinances of the gospel. They were not different churches.
No, if certain writings were excluded, that was the choice of the councils that made those decisions. Certainly if the apostles wrote about the gospel, their writings are just as important as those we have today. Yet they are missing.
We believe that the Bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. But we do not believe it is complete or inerrant. Neither do we believe the Book of Mormon is complete or inerrant. But we don't throw the baby out with the bath water and say that it is worthless to study the word of God because of the errors. It is STILL the word of God. Man has made the errors, not God.
Continued:
Where is the archeological evidence to validate the claims of the Book of Mormon?
Despite expeditions financed by the Mormon Church, archaeologists have concluded the Book of Mormon is not historical but a work of fiction. Listen to what others have said about the Book of Mormon and the lack of archeological evidence:
The Smithsonian Institute in a letter to the Mormon Church states, "The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian Archaeologists see no connection between the archaeology of the New World and the subject matter of the Book."
The National Geographic Society writes, "With regard to the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon, neither representatives of the National Geographic Society nor archaeologists connected with any other institution of equal prestige have ever used the Book of Mormon in locating historic ruins in Middle America or elsewhere."
Even Mormon archaeologists admit there is no conclusive evidence. Dr. Hugh Nibley, a Mormon apologist, states in his book Since Cumorah that no real archaeological proof for the Nephite civilization exists. He writes regarding the Nephites, "All that we have to go on to date is a written history . . . there is nothing whatever that an anthropologist or archaeologist as such can say about the Book of Mormon."
Dee Green, professor of anthropology at Weber State University and a respected Mormon scholar states, "The first myth we must eliminate is that Book of Mormon archaeology exists . . . no Book of Mormon location is known with reference to modern topography. Biblical archaeology can be studied because we do know where Jerusalem and Jericho were and are, but we do not know where Zarahemla and Bountiful (nor any other location for that matter) were or are. It would seem that a concentration on geography should be the first order of business, but . . . years of such an approach has left us empty-handed."
I could quote more but you get the picture.
Hesandanza,
If you review your history book you’ll find that the “Churches” collectively represented the “one church” and were widespread throughout the known regions of the Middle East, Europe, Asia Minor, etc.
The bottom line is this: The Old and New Testament maintain harmony with each other. The Bible has proven to be doctrinally sound, historically accurate, and archeological evidence continues to prove its reliability.
This cannot be said of the Book of Mormon and everyone knows it.
In regard to the Old Testament and other books which were not included: I will say that God has given us sufficient knowledge of himself and his will in the Bible. If certain writings were excluded, God himself thought they were not necessary to include. For we read the following –
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost – 1Peter 1:20, 21.
It is God himself that has given us his word and preserved it. I find it ironic that you say that there are so many errors in the Bible but your television commercials and missionaries continue to offer a free KJV to everyone who calls. ?????????????? Why offer a book which has so many errors? Could this be a subtle way of reeling people in without alarming them with your aberrant teachings?
Online4Him - there is just a few problems with your theory of canonical acceptance.
Christ established one church, not many churches. "Upon this rock I will build my church," not "my churches."
The entire Old Testament was written by prophets that lived long before Christ did.
How could they tell which scriptures were orthodox and "conformed to the core beliefs of scripture", if those scriptures had not been compiled yet?
If the prophets and apostles thought that particular scriptures were important enough to include citations and mentions of them in their own gospels and writings, why weren't they included in the canon of the Bible?
And many of the writings of Christ's apostles and their associates themselves are missing. Aren't they important?
Some examples:
Josh. 10:13 - book of Jasher missing (2 Sma. 1:18)
1 Kgs. 11:41 - book of acts of Solomon missing.
1 Chr. 29:29 - book of Samuel the seer missing.
2 Chr. 9:29 - book of Nathan the prophet missing.
2 Chr. 12:15 - book of Shemaiah the prophet missing.
2 Chr. 13:22 - story of the prophet Iddo missing.
2 Chr. 20:34 - book of Jehu missing.
2 Chr. 33:19 - sayings of the seers missing.
Matt 2:23 - we don't have the scripture that prophesies that "he shall be called a Nazarene"
1 Cor. 5:9 - This epistle is missing.
Eph. 3:3 - these writings are missing
Col. 4:16 - Epistle missing.
Jude 1:3 - this writing is missing.
Jude 1:14 - Enoch's writing is missing.
Hesadanza,
The Book of Mormon does not qualify when we apply these 3 criteria to it.
Hesadanza,
There were 3 basic criteria for accepting books to be a part of the New Testament cannon:
First, they had to be written by an apostle or an associate of an apostle before 100AD or before the 2nd century.
Second, they had to be accepted by all the churches – it had to be universal.
Third, they had to be orthodox; that is, they had to conform to the core beliefs of scripture.
For example, the Apocrypha books were not universally accepted due to the lack of apostolic authorship and lack of uniform teachings with the rest of scripture.
True, Hendanza,
God is still telling me stuff that needs to be written. Like Joseph Smith was actually a false prophet. And that I need to write another addendum to the Bible stating the truth about him.
The prophets of the Bible quote scriptures that are not found anywhere in the Bible today. Christ Himself quoted scripture that is not in the Bible as we have it today. Indeed, the early Christians had many more books that they considered holy and which they read from, which were centuries later thrown out from the canon. How do you reconcile that? How can you say that the Bible is finished, complete, sealed when there was and is obviously more holy writ?
Hesadanza,
In all honestly; this is why most Christians do not accept Mormonism and its aberrant teachings. To also say that the Bible does not contain all of God's word is simply a fabrication.
Yes, it does tell me something. It tells me that the Bible does not have all of God's word, that God has spoken again today, that the heavens are not shut, and that we now have more details about God's plan of salvation.
Hesadanza,
Check out this article; it really demonstrates that Jesus alone can only hold this office (Melchizedek).
http://www.xenos.org/essays/melchi.htm
Hesadanza,
I also disagree with your take on these passages; to simply say that -
The Bible does not say that Peter, James, John, or anyone else specifically held the Melchizedek priesthood and that these details have either been left out by the authors, or were removed by subsequent scribes or translators. ????????????
This should tell you something!
This only strengthens my point; the priesthood after the order of Melchizedek belongs to Jesus alone.
"He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."(Heb. 7:25)
Your claims are merely assumptions that cannot be supported by Scripture.
And since we know that Christ held the Melchizedek priesthood, it is only reasonable to believe that when He ordained His apostles, it was to the same authority. Because there is no other authority.
I disagree. We believe Hebrews 5 is talking about the ordination of men to the same priesthood that Christ was ordained to, which is the Melchizedek order. They must be called of God, as was Aaron.
The Bible does not say that Peter, James, John, or anyone else specifically held the Melchizedek priesthood, but they were ordained to authority and power within Christ's church which is quite clear. Obviously this authority and power had a name, but we are not told what it is. These are details have either been left out by the authors, or were removed by subsequent scribes or translators.
We are told, however, that an angelic messenger from God delivered these details to Joseph Smith, that they did have the Melchizedek priesthood:
"The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized" (JS-H 1:72).
We are also told the line of priesthood authority of many other ancient prophets from latter-day revelation, from Adam on down (D&C 107:39-52; D&C 84:6-18).
Hesadanza,
These verses are merely demonstrating that Jesus Christ assumed the role of high priest as compared to the old priesthood's qualifications.
He begins by mentioning first, the chief QUALIFICATION for being such an high priest: "For every high priest taken from among men."
Secondly we see the DESCRIPTION of his office: "he is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: "
Thirdly is his personal SUITEDNESS for the office: "Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity."
Fourthly is the sum of the chief DUTY of his office: "And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins."
Fifthly, is the NATURE of his office: "And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron."
The Bible tells us to come to Jesus who is our only high priest -
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need – Hebrews 4:14.
Where does the New Testament say that Peter, James, and John held the Melchizedek priesthood?
Where does the Bible say that any of the disciples or apostles ever held the Melchizedek priesthood?
Where does the Bible say that anyone but Melchizedek and Jesus ever held the Melchizedek priesthood?
If Jesus alone is our high priest, then why does Hebrews 5:1-4 tell us how men become high priests? Even Christ did not become a high priest by himself, but was called by Him who said, "Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee" (Heb. 5:5-6).
And why have temples in heaven if none are needed on earth? Do not the earthly temples point the way to the heavenly ones?
Hezadanza,
You clearly do not have a grip on these passages that you are posting my friend; these passages are referring to the end time and not to any Mormon priestly system. John is describing the Lord in his glory and those who he has delivered from “great tribulation” Revelation 7:13-16. – See also -
(Revelation 20:4) - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
In Malachi; this passage is referring to the coming of the “Messiah” – Jesus Christ to his people Israel.
Mal 3:1 -
Behold, I will send my messenger - מלאכי Malachi, the very name of the prophet. But this speaks of John the Baptist. I, the Messiah, the Seed of God, mentioned above, will send my messenger, John the Baptist.
He shall prepare the way - Be as a pioneer before me; a corrector of civil abuses, and a preacher of righteousness.
And the Lord, whom ye seek - The Messiah, whom ye expect, from the account given by the prophet Daniel, in his seventy weeks, Dan_9:24.
Shall suddenly come to his temple - Shall soon be presented before the Lord in his temple; cleanse it from its defilement, and fill it with his teaching and his glory.
The Messenger of the covenant - He that comes to fulfill the great design, in reference to the covenant made with Abram that in his seed all the families of the earth should be blessed. See the parallel texts in the margin, and the notes on them.
Finally, you continue to confuse the priestly ministry of Jesus Christ himself with some aberrant view of an earthly priesthood. Jesus Christ alone is our High Priest (Hebrews 4:14) and the temple in Revelation 7:15 is in heaven not earth.
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; - Hebrews 9:11.
And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: - Revelation 15:5.
How do we receive the priesthood?
"And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron" (Hebrews 5:4).
And how was Aaron called of God?
God spoke to Moses and called Aaron to serve (Exodus 28:1).
Moses then washed Aaron, clothed him in holy garments, anointed him, and sanctified him so that he could minister in the priest's office (Exodus 40:13). This almost certainly involved the laying on of hands by Moses onto Aaron (Gen. 48:14,17; Num. 27:18,23; Deut. 34:9; 2 Tim. 1:6; Heb. 6:2).
"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease" (Matt. 10:1).
"And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits" (Mark 6:7).
"Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick" (Luke 9:1-2).
If you read these scriptures closely you will find that Christ called his apostles and GAVE them power to do works for and in behalf of Christ, including healing and other miracles. It is not something that you get just by believing.
hesadanza, you said:
"When Christ was on the earth he ordained apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and gave them His power to do such things as cast out unclean spirits, heal sickness, baptize, and administer His church. '
No, he ordained ALL believers to cast ou unclean spirits,heal sickness, and baptize. Mark 16:17-18 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
Prophets, pastors, apostles, teachers, and evangelists are called to equip the saints (believers) for the work of the ministry. yes, they do those things (heal, miracles), but their main purpose is to train other believers to do that.
Mormons aren't that bad. If we elected Andrew Jackson, we can elect him
I'm sorry hesadanza.
I've lost all respect for a man who spits on the cross and makes it's purpose useless. The LDS, as well as the RCC, have placed themselves above God, and in doing so will bring His judgment. Those are two cults I would not want to be a part of when Jesus comes back.
By the way..."Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" I Corinthians 3:16.
And don't forget Revelation 21:22-23 "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."
Online4Him,
You err, not knowing the scriptures. Clearly there is prophesy of future temples in the Bible. "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them" (Rev. 7:15). Malachi prophesies that in the last days that the Lord shall suddenly come to his temple, which He has done (Mal. 3:1). Whenever God has wanted to make covenants with His people He has commanded them to build temples. That is how it has been since Adam.
What do you mean that Jesus did not "re-establish a high priesthood patterned after the old levitical system"? Hebrews tells us that Christ Himself was a priest after the order of Melchizedek, and that those that are called as high priests are called after the same order, as was Aaron (Heb. 5:1-4).
The prophets, apostles, and all those who hold the priesthood give priesthood blessings, by the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood, anointing with consecrated oil, and have healed many (Mark 6:13; James 5:14). I too have participated in giving such blessings to the sick and afflicted, by the authority of the restored priesthood, and they have been healed. These blessings occur by the thousands every day by members across the world who hold the priesthood. We do not display these healings for all the world to see, for they are sacred and holy experiences that are reserved for the faithful to participate (Matt. 6:6).
correction: . . . . . . . and heal all the sick. :)
Hesadanza,
The temple that you site with biblical passeges has been destroyed and there is no Biblical mandate to rebuild another. Jesus did not re-establish a high preisthood patterned after the old levitical system. Where in the New Testament can we read of such a mandate? The record is silent; and if you claim to have a living prophet who has the power to do such things as cast out unclean spirits and heal sickness. . . . . . . Why doesn't he start traveling the nation and healing all the sick?
Online4Him,
I have read Hebrews, many times, and it clearly states that Jesus Christ is a High Priest after the Melchizedek order (Heb. 5:6, 10; see also Ps. 110:4). Incidentally, this is the same priesthood order that has been restored and with which He has ordained His chosen servants to administer His church today, and, yes, they have given their lives to Jesus, and are His royal priesthood. They have been taken from among men and are ordained to the priesthood for this purpose, and are called of God, as was Aaron (Heb. 5:1-4).
When Christ was on the earth he ordained apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and gave them His power to do such things as cast out unclean spirits, heal sickness, baptize, and administer His church (Matt. 10:1; Mark 6:7; Luke 9:1; 3 Ne. 11:22; 3 Ne. 18:37). The "power" He gave them is the authority of His priesthood. That is the authority to do the work of the Lord in His behalf. The Lord is not physically on the earth today; He is in heaven. He has commisioned others to help fulfill His work. Even when He was here in the flesh, He still ordained others, and sent them out to proclaim His gospel and to baptize in His name. Why did the Lord go through the hassle of calling and ordaining Paul, for example (Acts 9:15)?
Christ did not reject the temple and its ordinances. Quite the contrary. He taught at the temple daily (Luke 19:47). He referred to it as His "Father's house" (John 2:16). The early Christians could be found "continually at the temple" (Luke 24:52-53). They assembled there "daily" (Acts 2:46, 5:42). The apostles prayed there (Acts 3:1, 11-26; 5:12). The Apostle Paul saw a vision of Christ while praying in the temple, indicating that the temple was a house of revelation for the Christians (Acts 22:17-18). An angel even commanded the leaders to go and teach the gospel in the temple complex (Acts 5:19-21, 25). No, temple worship did not end with Christ. Animal sacrifice ended with the ultimate sacrifice of Christ, the one to whom the animal sacrifices were in similitude. Christ instituted in its place a symbolic sacrifice of oneself. Those that followed Christ were to sacrifice their time, talents, and everything they had to the Lord their God, to preach to one and all to believe in Christ, and be baptized in His name (Acts 2:38).
Hesadanza,
It would be good for you to read the book of Hebrews; it continually states that "Christ alone" is our High Priest! There is no earthly priesthood other than those who have given their lives to Jesus (Royal Priesthood). Don't you remember that the veil of the temple (Jewish Temple) ripped from top to bottom, bringing the sacrificial system to an end? We already have a great High Priest who has passed into the heavens to minister in our behalf!
Here's a good post:
http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2007/12/how-can-anyone-be-so-stupid.html
"For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39).
Purell,
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, though it is not official doctrine.
Yes, if husband & wife are faithful.
Because God seals eternally.
Yes, Jesus has followed in the footsteps of His Father, and will inherit a kingdom.
Your reasoning breaks down when you said that Christ is now "spiritually procreating over his kingdom". I have never heard that ever taught in the LDS Church. He is not spiritually procreating. He may at some future point, but we do NOT teach that He is "spiritually procreating over his kingdom" now. He is concerned with our salvation and exaltation at this point, and that is His primary concern right now.
Yes, the doctrine of eternal progression necessitates progression, which is not a distortion of Biblical truth, friend.
Prophet,
Salvation does come through a church, that is the sole purpose that Christ established His church when he was here in the flesh, with an organization, with priesthood authority, with ordinances, and with His direction and leadership. There would have been no need to do all of that if the only thing that was needed for salvation was faith on Jesus Christ.
God has given His priesthood authority to His one church, and none other. God is not the author of confusion, which is certainly the case between the doctrines of the various churches. If God had given His priesthood authority to all the various churches, how would any one know which church was teaching the correct doctrine? They wouldn't. There are not multiple truths. There is one truth.
"The main trait that separates the exalted from the non-exalted is the ability to have sex and procreate in heaven. It is to remain married and procreate after the resurrection. It is to create universes in which your children will live. It is to be a God. For a Goddess, it means she will spend all eternity pregnant and bearing children. For some women, this sounds like a great and glorious blessing and they get so happy they break down in tears when they think about it. My wife is like that. They love babies. They love being pregnant." - John Walsh, LDS Philosophy List (1 Jan 2005)
SummaTheologica, before you subscribe to the rantings of so-called Bible critics, it would do you good to know that most of them have no interest in even attempting to understand the text. I've read the list before, yours was actually shorter than most. I can answer at least half of the ones you listed without even doing any research.
For example, how did Judas die? The two separate accounts that appear to contradict can be synchronized without twisting any of the meaning or context. The fact that they are not exactly the same reveals that they are indeed separate eye witness accounts and without prior consultation.
Online4Him, you impressed me with your quick follow up regarding Ezekiel’s prophecy.
Has not Mr. Snow said...As man is...god once was...as god is...man shall become...hmm? Did Jesus achieve exaltation? Isn't that the goal of many in church of LDS? Do you not believe that Jesus was married to at least one wife? Is not the family and the temple marriage eternal? And for what reason? Forgive my illogical conclusion that Jesus too would follow in the footsteps of Elohim and progress as he has, to inherit a kingdom unto himself like his Father and Elohim's father before him. Where does my reasoning break down. Does not the doctrine of eternal progression necessitate a...um...progression? A distortion of Biblical Truth indeed, that needs no aid from me, friend.
hesadanza..
I still get a kick out of you using the phrase "True Church" in reference to the LDS. As we learned that salvation doesn't come through a church or works, but only through Jesus Christ. To claim otherwise negates His death on the cross. I have met many prophets and apostles, all of which were not affiliated with the LDS. So we know that God uses His servants, regardless what name hangs over their church door. As long as they're willing and obedient.
And so are the effects and corruption resulting from the Great Apostasy. Thanks for pointing out the differences with the restored gospel, purell.
Let me just make a few things clear.
Jesus Christ, the Son, is not "spiritually procreating over his kingdom." I'm not sure where you got that.
Those that have had the chance to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ in this mortal life will NOT have the opportunity to accept it and the accompanying blessings in the next, even if they have their vicarious ordinances performed for them. They WILL perish. God will not give second chances!
Eternal life is not a "pick from 3", as you say. Elder McConkie wrote, "As used in the scriptures, eternal life is the name given to the kind of life that our Eternal Father lives." That kind of life is only available to those that receive exaltation in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. Those that enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms will NOT live an "eternal" life because it will NOT be the kind of life that our Eternal Father lives. They will be single, solitary, angels in heaven.
Unfortunately, you still distort our teachings.
I testify to you that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ's true church restored today. It is lead by Him. He has called prophets and apostles today to whom He gives revelation to guide His saints. And He is doing a marvelous work and a wonder in preparation for His second coming.
Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, and you will come to know some day that Christ has restored His church to the earth, and that you were kicking against the pricks. The Jews at the time of Christ called Him a liar, deceiver, adulterer, heretic, etc., and it still continues today.
LDS theology collapses on itself from every angle of logic--theogically, historically, geographically, socially, and pragmatically. They do in fact believe that "For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosever believe in Him sahll not persish but have eternal life". Unfortunately, they have redifined every major tenet in that statement.
God- A created man who was Exalted, yet continuing to eternally progress like the "gods" before him.
World- not the the ex-nihilo creation
Only Begotten- A created spirit child, first fleshly son to an immortal father and mortal woman
Son- A spirit man- accepting his mission to save earth- gaining exaltation- now eternally progressing and spiritually pro-creating over his kingdom where he postitionally shares the title of "god", but is logically behind father God in the eternal progressive curve.
Believes- Being justified by obeying the commands of God as outlined by LDS in order to be worthy to respond/recieve salvation
Perish- You always have a chance if someone is willing to be baptized in your name after you are dead (how does that fit will living obedient lives worth to recieve...hmm...)
Eternal Life- Pick from 3. There are three kingdoms-celestial, terrestrial, and telestial. They range from a New heaven/earth to Eternal progression where you too can be god.
Wrong God. Wrong Jesus. Wrong Faith. Wrong Plan of Salvation. Wrong Period. Mormonism is a mega-distortion of every major theological precept handed to us by God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Like all deceptive lies, it collapse on itself with each succeeding liar proclaiming to have more revelatory light. It's "authoratative" writings crumble every time a new prophet opens their mouth in hopes to revise the Joseph Smith they have become ashamed of.
With respect to Hesadanza. Get out this apostasy while God has granted you a sharp mind and breath in your lungs. Pray and seek the True and Living God again for authentic burning in your bosom and let Jesus Christ alone be sufficient for your salvation. Peace to you, friend.
ipobitsy,
What is truth?
Reading the comments..... hmmm. How do we show Christ's love? Love one another....Prefer others before yourself..... I wonder how it looks to people...how they see Jesus in our actions when we are so judgemental, partial and all the things Christ specifically asked us not to do...then we do that...and show partiality, and predjudice, hatred, say mean things...and wonder why people don't trust christians? Can we please, please, please....think about how this affects our christian witness? You just might see him in Heaven one day.... God will make the decision. But if this person will vote and behave in moral way and support values we desperately need... then why not listen at least. Everyone must make their own decisions. I really think there have been mean-spirited attacks on christians by christians. I really don't think Jesus would be like that. I'm sure he loves him. And...its not our job to malign other people of faith even if you don't agree. Let's look for the good in people....for a change? Please.
Be careful little children in what you hear, and what you let into your spirit!
To Hesadanza: We are saved by grace alone! It is the gift of God, not by works lest any man should boast. We cannot in our own flesh obey God; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Jesus Christ came down here John 3:16, tells us why. No man can keep ALL of the law, if you break one, you break them all, we can never on our own stand justified before God!
It is the reason that Jesus came and died, paid a penalty that I could never pay. Everything is about Jesus Christ, not about me. I cannot save myself, and I could never do enough works to stand justified before a Holy God!
This is works based faith; salvation is found in no other way than Jesus Christ, I can do nothing to save myself. My part is believing in the One that God the Father sent, Jesus Christ, and believing that what Jesus accomplished on The Cross is enough!
I'm blessed that God took me from a works-based, legalistic religion, and took me into The Kingdom of God and showed me that I have VICTORY in Jesus Christ, now, I am seated with The Lord even in Heaven now.
I'm not there physically, but when Christ died on the cross, I was with Him, HE covered me, when He died, I died with Him, and when HE arose, I arose with Him! Praise GOD! I am dead to this world, but alive in CHRIST!
Nothing but the blood of Jesus Christ could atone for the sin of mankind! God loves us so much, HE didn't want to spend eternity without His children. There is One Body, One Faith, One Lord, and it is not denominational, it is the true followers of Jesus Christ, they don't follow any man, nor any "church" they follow the LORD, led by The Holy Spirit, who is even now being poured out on all flesh in these End Times!
For those who have ears to hear The Spirit, hear The Word of the LORD! "Prepare ye the way of the LORD! The KING is coming, be sober, be alert, it isn't enough to know about Jesus, you must be serving Him! Matthew 25, "whatever you have done to the least" these are critical days, and The Holy Spirit is being poured out on all flesh without measure!!!! See The Glory of The LORD fill the land! Pray for all leaders and those in positions of authority, they hold those positions by God's grace and design! Look to JESUS, keep your eyes on Him, not on any flesh!
In Jesus Name, Amen!
hesadanza,
Thank you. I'm glad you agree then that no particular denomination or church is the only true way to salvation. People from all denominations make up the true Body of Christ.
As I said before, most Christians get saved and then that's it. They do nothing else. They are saved and going to heaven, but they will have no reward other than that. There are Christians, like my wife and I, who get saved and have the passion for acts of service and evangelism. We are not sitters. We are not hearers only. We are doers. We believe that we confess our faith in the Lord Jesus through our actions. And we do these things, not because the are "required" (that is bondage). We do these things because we love our God, our brothers and sister in the Lord, and we love the lost. It's about love. If you do works without love, it is vain obligation.
Galatians 5:1-6: "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."
Paul is talking about being under bondage to law. In verse 4 it say " You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ;" You told me that justification means salvation. If that is the case, then salvation through the law (works) will alienate you from Him. And verse 6 sums it up "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is FAITH EXPRESSING ITSELF THROUGH LOVE."
Prophet,
You will be there, if you do what God has asked.
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/12/12/whaddya-mean-mormons-are-not-christians-shedding-light-on-a-hot-topic/
Slacker,
I agree with the majority of what you posted earlier, except for your statement - ". . . . . . our denominations or our translation of the bible"?
No one here has been questioning the love of God or his atoning sacrifice but this question has to be asked, "Is everyone teaching that Christ ALONE is the way to salvation?" In other words; how does one receive this salvation? Is it by what we do or is it a gift from God to be received by faith?
I like this quote from R.C. Sproul -
"No Christian can avoid theology. Every Christian has a theology. The issue, then, is not, do we want to have a theology? That's a given. The real issue is; do we have a sound theology? Do we embrace true or false doctrine?"
hesadanza....I hope you wont be too terribly upset when I'm up in heaven with you.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Prophet,
The problem is that we understand the word "justification" and "justified" differently. We believe that you must be justified before the Father in order to receive salvation and exaltation. The only way to be justified is to obey God's commandments.
Eph. 2:8-9 says that we are saved through faith. What is faith? It is a belief in God that is so strong that we will do what He asks us to do. True faith provokes us to obey. We will obey His commandments.
The only yoke the LDS Church puts on people is that which God has defined specifically for our salvation and exaltation. We don't have free rein to do what we please in this life.
Christ established His church when He was here in the flesh, and we must belong to it to receive the blessings of salvation and exaltation. Christ didn't establish thousands of different churches with different doctrines, different practices, different baptisms, different offices, different organizations, and different modes of salvation. He established one, and one only with His true gospel.
James 2:24 says "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." There is a difference between salvation and justification. And James chapter two isn't talking about salvation, it's talking about faith and works...not salvation and works. It's sad that you take a scripture completely out of context and create a cult around it.
Ephesians 2:8,9 says blatantly " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
LDS puts an unneccesary yoke upon people.
And yes, I am saved and going to heaven. My works are the effect of my salvation, not the cause of it. You are putting the cart before the horse. Just like the pharisees...trying to make something difficult out of something so simple.
And there is one BODY. And it doesn't carry a denominational name. It will be people from every denomination...all who have recieved the gift of salvation.
I agree slacker, you are right on.
Here is a good article, although I still don't believe that Huckabee is ignorant about Mormonism:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/14/us/politics/14mormon.html?_r=1&ref=politics&oref=slogin
Prophet,
Thank you for finally explaining your understanding of salvation. I have a better understanding of what you believe now.
No, according to the commandments that God has given, you are not saved, according to your definition. You have not done what God has required.
This basically comes down to the fact that you believe that we are saved by grace alone. Whereas we believe that we are saved by grace, after we do all we can to obey the commandments of God, which we believe is self-evident from the scriptures (James 2:24).
We believe that salvation is not so cut and dry as you understand it. Everyone who has lived on this earth, except the sons of perdition, will be saved in a kingdom of God because of the grace and resurrection of Christ. There are three kingdoms there - celestial, terrestrial, and telestial (1 Cor. 15:40-41; John 14:2). All three members of the Godhead have communion with those in the celestial, Christ and the Holy Ghost with those in the terrestrial, and the Holy Ghost only in the telestial. But in order to be with all three of the Godhead, you must obtain the highest degree of glory, the celestial, which is called exaltation. This requires obedience to all the laws and ordinances which God has instituted from the foundation of this earth for that purpose, including those restored to His temple today (D&C 76:50-70; D&C 131:1-4).
Any one who doesn't claim that there is one true church denies the very organization that Christ Himself established when He was here in the flesh for the salvation and exaltation of those that believe in Him (1 Cor. 12:28; Luke 11:49; Eph. 2:20; Eph. 4:11; Matt. 16:18).
Wow this is awesome, 7 pages of comments that has nothing to do with the article at hand, well i have to say, it isn't about you, it isn't about me, our denominations or our translation of the bible, IT is about Jesus. So simple yet we forget about this one simple fact, that Jesus died on the cross for us, because he loved us so much he died for us, all of us, not just mormons or christians or muslims but for all of us. God sent his only begotton son to die on the cross for all of us. Can you imagine what that must of taken to say "Son i want you to become flesh and blood and go and die for the people of the earth" Amazing, he did that for Us, we don't deserve it, definitely not, we are all sinners and fall WAY short of the glory of God, but he did it anyway, Why because he loves us. Absolutely Amazing....
And, as I also said, I didn't need the LDS to become saved, nor do I need the LDS to become more Christ-like. I don't need the LDS, RCC, AOG, Baptist, Presbetyrian,etc, etc. I just need Jesus. So, any one denominations claim to be the "True Church" is slapping God in the face and placing them above Him.
hesadanza...
I did answer your question. Am I the only one between us brave enough to answer questions. All you did was try to take me further from MY question to you, in hopes you could distract me enough that I would forget.
As I said, I am saved, going to heaven, spending eternity with God (which includes all three expressions of Him, since you cannot separate the three), and while i'm here..alive....on earth....i follow His commandments, and strive to attain to the image of Christ. But I will stop there and ask that you read my post on December 13 at 1:24 pm again. I don't like repeating myself to people who refuse to pay attention.
And please don't go off on a tangent again. Salvation is simple. Don't be the stereotypical religious person and make it more difficult than it is.
Chapter 1: Nebuchadnezzar's Wars
Rise of Nebuchadnezzar
The Egyptian Holocaust
In 564 B.C. a foreign army invaded Egypt, laying waste the country. Tens of thousands died. Thousands more, primarily the skilled and educated elite, priests and artisans alike, were taken captive and deported. A minority escaped into the surrounding desert, among them the ruling pharaoh. Only a small remnant survived.
The physical structures of the country were also decimated. Temples and tombs were destroyed and looted. Cities were burned. From Migdol in the eastern Delta to Syene near Elephantine south of Thebes, 500 miles upriver on the Nile, the country was ravaged.
It was, quite literally, a holocaust.
Twenty years passed as the land languished, raped of its treasure by garrisons left behind by the foreigners. No pharaoh ruled to restore order. Another twenty years saw limited rebuilding and the gradual renewal of religious and political life. Temples were repaired. Training began for a new generation of priests and artisans.
The few traumatized survivors of the exile, now old, had only a vague recollection of the days when the priests were taken away and the population vanished. They told tales about the nšn, “the devastation”.
The name of the invader, familiar to even the most casual student of ancient history, was Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, at the time the dominant power in the ancient Near East.
Only one problem surfaces in connection with this unprecedented act of genocide and material destruction. With few exceptions, historians categorically deny it ever happened. [1]
Read Ezekiel 29:14 – “And I will bring again the captivity of Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros, into the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base kingdom”.
This verse indicates that the nation of Egypt would not be totally destroyed; so the forty years represent - The ideal forty years’ wilderness state of social and political degradation, rather than a literal non-passing of man or beast for that term, is mainly intended (so Eze_4:6; Isa_19:2, Isa_19:11).
SummaTheologica,
How are you doing tonight? Instead of shooting off a host of questions, let us start off answering one allegation at a time. How does that sound? This chapter of Ezekiel is easily understood when you read it in its context and supported by actual historical accounts. First, take a closer look at this verse in light of the historical and prophetic picture:
Eze 29:10 -
from the tower of Syene — Grotius translates, “from Migdol (a fortress near Pelusium on the north of Suez) to Syene (in the farthest south)”; that is, from one end of Egypt to the other. So “from Migdol to Syene,” Eze_30:6, Margin. However, English Version rightly refers Syene to Seveneh, that is, Sebennytus, in the eastern delta of the Nile, the capital of the Lower Egyptian kings. The Sebennyte Pharaohs, with the help of the Canaanites, who, as shepherds or merchants, ranged the desert of Suez, extended their borders beyond the narrow province east of the delta, to which they had been confined by the Pharaohs of Upper Egypt. The defeated party, in derision, named the Sebennyte or Lower Egyptians foreigners and shepherd-kings (a shepherd being an abomination in Egypt, Gen_46:34). They were really a native dynasty. Thus, in English Version, “Ethiopia” in the extreme south is rightly contrasted with Sebennytus or Syene in the north.
Eze 29:11 -
forty years — answering to the forty years in which the Israelites, their former bondsmen, wandered in “the wilderness” (compare Note, see on Eze_29:5). Jerome remarks the number forty is one often connected with affliction and judgment. The rains of the flood in forty days brought destruction on the world. Moses, Elias, and the Savior fasted forty days. The interval between Egypt’s overthrow by Nebuchadnezzar and the deliverance by Cyrus, was about forty years. The ideal forty years’ wilderness state of social and political degradation, rather than a literal non-passing of man or beast for that term, is mainly intended (so Eze_4:6; Isa_19:2, Isa_19:11).
Next; here is the beginning of an in depth look at this historical time period. We cannot post the entire book here but the web link is - www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/NebuchadnezzarChapter1.htm - 317k -.
Prophet - I never agreed that you are saved. I asked you to clarify what you consider to be "salvation." Will you do that? Do you know what salvation means? Give me a description. What is it? What will you do if you're are saved? In whose company will you be if you're saved? Describe it.
I do know this. No one will enter the kingdom of God without obeying the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. God has established the His gospel ordinances for the purpose of saving and exalting His people.
The post below is for Prophet and Hesadanza
Propet and he thinks you are wrong and he is right... This really didn't get you guys anywhere now did it? God loves us too much to say we are going to hell because of the church we went to.
hesadanza,
So, now that we agree that I'm saved...and I am such without the LDS, your claim of the LDS being the true church is wrong.
Some Bible prophecies that failed:
Ezekiel incorrectly predicts Babylon would conquer Eygypt
Ezekiel incorrectly predicts the destruction of Tyre (Tyrus) by Nebuchadrezzar
Micah incorrectly predicts the destruction of Jerusalem
Jeremiah Predicts the wrong number of years for exile
Ezekiel predicted Babylon would conquer Egypt and was wrong.
Ezekiel predicted that Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon will conquer Egypt utterly destroying it, slaying and scattering it's people, and that it will stay unihabited for 40 years.
In 568 Nebuchadrezzar tried to conquer Egypt and Egypt survived with no apparent damage.
(Ezek 29:10-12, 30:10-11). Etc.....
Some Bible Contradictions:
How did Judas die?
Was Jesus in paradise the same day he died on the cross?
What happened during Paul's Damascus road conversion?
According to the Bible is a person saved by faith or grace?
How many sons did Abraham have?
When did the Transfiguration occur?
what color was Jesus' Robe?
Did Jesus carry his own cross?
How many animals did Jesus ride on when entering Jerusalem?
When did the fig tree wither?
what time of day was Jesus crucified?
How many stalls of horses did King Solomon have?
How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
Was vegitation created before or after man?
Were animals created before or after man?
How long after the ressurection did Jesus ascend to heaven?
According to the Bible, has any man seen God?
Who were the twelve disciples?
Which Jesus birth story is correct?
Which genealogy story is correct? Author of Luke's or Genesis?
How old was Abram when he left Haran?
According to the Bible, does God change his mind?
If God is unchanging then what of the law of Moses?
What was the count of David's Census?
How old was Jehoiachin when he started to reign?
How many people did Jashobeam kill?
Who incited king David to take a census?
Who killed Goliath?
How many cheif officers did solomon put in charge of building his temple?
How many pomegranates for slomon's temple?
How many robbers taunted Jesus on the cross?
Was John the Baptist Elijah according to the New Testament?
I have the scriptures to go along with this but not enough space, if you know the Bible well... This shouldn't be very hard to find.
Mormons continue to say that our Bible contains errors and that they are not reliable. Where is the evidence?
Prophet,
Yes, I know what salvation is. But I wanted to know what your definition of it was, because even that varies among churches.
So you say that being saved is "merely being saved from eternal separation from God." Does that mean that if you are saved you are in the presence of God for eternity? Does that include the presence of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? Please clarify. I need to understand what you understand as salvation before I can give you a good answer.
REPLY TO :chk555Furthermore; I would be very disappointed and hurt if I found out that any of my Christian brothers or sisters did the same, it would put a huge strain on our fellowship.
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glad to know that, and by the way did not an angel visit the Virgin Mary? And you are the kind of people that my father died in a war so you could think like that. I am sorry Dad.
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For me to vote for a candidate who was a Mormon would be the height of treason to my Savior, The Lord Jesus Christ. I would never do it, even if it meant a non-Christian atheist becoming president.
Furthermore; I would be very disappointed and hurt if I found out that any of my Christian brothers or sisters did the same, it would put a huge strain on our fellowship.
The Jesus of the Mormon Church is NOT the Lord Jesus of the New Testament. Beware of prophets who say they get their revelations from angels. Here that Mr. Smith and Mohammad?
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed
You know I think if I wanted to buy a Chevy I would go to the Ford dealership to find out information..... That is pretty much what people are telling Hesadanza..There is no way you can use what some ex elder whatever said to be the absolute truth to disproving Mormonism and to say that Mormonism was "Disproved" is not only ludicrous but totally uneducated.... Think a little more before you write on this topic some of these posts are almost laughable on both sides of this argument.
Anyway... I do find the term "Homosexual Marriage" to be contradictory. I have nothing against Gays but I don't honestly believe that Marriage is intersex but rather one man and one woman.
hesadanza,
Do you not know what saved is? Saved is merely being saved from eternal separation from God. As I said, salvation is a matter of faith, not works. But works should be a "by-product", or evidence, of salvation...though in most Christians it is not. Many people get "saved" and never do anything. They are going to heaven, but what will their reward be? Salvation is free. But we will be rewarded according to what we've done here on earth. Many people will be "barely saved"
I Corinthians 3:12-15 says "...If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."
But I choose not to be a "pew sitter". I strive daily to attain to the image of Jesus Christ. To walk in the fruits of His Spirit. To continue the spreading of His loving mercy to those who do not believe.
So again, i ask you, do you believe that I am saved? From the information I just gave, it should be extremely simple to answer.
Yes, the best way to learn about another faith is to ask one who has been excommunicated from it, and is now an apostate. They will give you the clear-cut truthful answers.
Actually, that would be tantamount to asking the critics and enemies of the Church, which Krister Stendahl has noted is as good as "bearing false witness."
James R Spencer is an ex-elder of Mormonism, I encourage all readers to check out his site, Beyond Mormonism. I read the book myself and it talks of his journey into Mormonism and then right up to his being ex-communicated, as he describes in his own words, how Mormonism is a CULT! His biography is very informative of Mormon practices and beliefs.
I had no knowledge on Mormonism but a for a few things. I prayed and asked the Lord to guide me to good information, and HE led me to this book and there are others. How interesting it is that many Scholars are showing the lies of Mormonism, but people hold fast to lies, as I did when I came out of the worldwide church of god (armstrong) and we were teaching that we were "the true church, and we had the "plain truth" and we were clearly teaching ERRORS as is Mormonism.
Of course before the Lord brought me to a clear understanding of His Word, I defended my old church and its' beliefs, one reason was because I just couldn't believe that I could be possible living a lie and that is I believe a big reason that many would cling to their mormon beliefs, as they would have to confess that they've been living a big lie.
I'm not here attacking any person, but I surely will speak out on the lie of Mormonism. Jesus is LORD and Jesus is not a brother to Satan! Man is NOT progressing to be god and I am so thankful that I am not. God is in charge and HE is in control, not man. For that I am truly thankful.
The Lord God is coming soon, and we shall all see Him as HE is and there will be a great wailing as many will know the lies they've been following. They have exchanged the truth for a lie, and worship the created instead of The Creator! Hear The Word of The LORD!
Be still and know that HE is GOD! Look to Jesus Christ and not to any man or self proclaimed church. Followers of Jesus Christ are not citizens of this world, we are citizens of Heaven and such as we are not to be involved in the affairs of this world. We render to Caesar what is his and to God what is God's (and it all belongs to God). We are in this world, but we are not of this world. Our allegience is to Jesus Christ, not to any man, not to any church. The church is the body of CHRIST, HE is the HEAD and we are the body, the body does NOT tell the Head it does not need Him. Much error is being preached and taught these days, by demons and many are being led astray. WAKE UP Followers of Jesus Christ and do NOT be yoked again by slavery of any kinds. GOOD WORKS do NOT save us, it is by GRACE, lest any man should boast, boast in THE CROSS of CHRIST! What can wash away your sin, NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS! He is looking for true worshippers, those who worship HIM In Spirit and in TRUTH! Worship the LORD in all you do and say, that HE is Glorified! Praise to The King of kings, and Lord of lords!!!!
danieljacob76 - again I disagree. Mormons DO know what Mormonism teaches. There is no difference there than saying that we know our beliefs and doctrines.
What we can all agree on is the simple statement that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior of all, that He made Himself a sacrifice for our sin. If you want to then delve into the deeper significance of those statements, then EVERY church is going to have their own views.
Mormons no more have a corner on truth than evangelicals, states where the evangelicals are the majority, have the highest teen pregancy rates, lowest education graduation rates and highest divorce rates. The Mormons as a group have the high amount of education, higher paying jobs and smallest divorce. Truth be told the evangelicals [of which I am one] are holding back the country,
Hesadanza,
You say:
"Do you mean to suggest that members of the LDS Church do not know their own doctrine? This is almost laughable. Scott Gordon said it well, "It amazes me that some anti-Mormons claim that Mormons don't know their own beliefs and only anti-Mormons know what Mormons 'really' believe. How can we believe something if we don't even know what it is? ... It can't be a belief of the Mormons if the Mormons don't believe it."
I see that maybe I should have said it differently. Of course I don't think that Mormons don't know what they believe - though I do think self-deception is possible (case in point: millions of professing Atheists - though the Scripture in Romans 1 says that the fact of God's existence is manifest and is truly known by all.) In any case, what I should have said is that many LDS do not know what MORMONISM (as a system of doctine) teaches. I wouldn't use all caps normally, but I can't do italics on this! I say this in the same sense that I say that there is a general ignorance among Christians in regard to what CHRISTIANITY (as a system of doctrine) historically teaches. If a professing Protestant or Catholic Christian and a professing LDS person think that Mitt Romney's statement that Jesus Christ is the savior of mankind and the Son of God means that we all share the same belief about Jesus then clearly someone (or all) do not know their doctrine and the content of that confession historically. LDS doctrine teaches that "God" (Elohim) was a man from another planet that became a god - of this universe - and that Jesus was physically begotten via the Father and Mary's union. Christian doctrine teaches that there is ONE God of ALL creation who exists eternally in three persons: Father, Son, Holy Ghost. The nature of the atonement is also different between the systems, as is the nature of Jesus. Again, it is ignorance of MormonISM and ChristianITY as systems - and not the general mass of people not knowing what they personally believe.
I took me a while, but I finally understand why evangelicals [of which I am one ] are afraid of the LDS church, for starters the LDS church have the lowest divorce rates, highest education graduation rates, some of the highest income earners just to memtion a few.
But he main thing is power, evangelicals no more have a corner on the truth than do mormons, that is the fact that evangelicals have ruled the roost, and they think they have a divine rite to do so, if you look at states that are majority evangelical like my state of Oklahoma, but across the entire south midwest and Vegas, evangelicals which is represented by the Good Ol Southern Baptist church, they have the highest divorce rates, lowest education rates, highest teen pregnancy, but BY GOLLY THEY ARE EVANGELICALS, and the truth be told they are also holding back this country.
Prophet - so what is "saved" to you? Is it entering heaven? Is it living with Jesus? It is reaching your full potential as a son of God? How do you define it?
Hesadanza & Summa Theologica,
I will read your responding comments later this afternoon. . . . . . have a good one.
Hesadanza,
The scriputres (the Bible) sufficiently give us enough knowledge to know what salvation consist of; so, a person can read the entire New Testament and come away with an understanding of the gospel (good news). So, no one needs to read the Book of Mormon to gain additonal knowledge concerning salvation; it has already been given to us. Remember what Jesus says in John 16:13 -
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he seak: and he will shew you things to come.
Prophet - what is your definition of saved? I want to make sure I give a good answer.
hesadanza,
You haven't answered my question. I have accepted Jesus into my life, made Him Lord over my life, confessed Him as Lord, I follow His commandments. Am I saved? Just to let you know this is not an essay question. It requires just one word to answer....yes...or no
By the way, we are not saved by works. We are saved by faith.
summatheoligica,
you said "That would be a tough one to answer. I would say God could do all of those things for you in some way shape or form. He loves all of us." No, God does not use unbelievers in the ministry. He doesn't do all those things to people that don't believe. Yes, sometimes He does move in an unbelievers life, but not in the extent that He has in mine. He doesn't carry on a deep fellowship with unbelievers. Yes, He loves us all.
truthandjustice1 -
And it scares me that it doesn't make sense to you.
The only thing that Jesus told those in the Old World about the New is that he had "other sheep" which were not of this fold (not of the Old World), and that He must also gather them in. Those in the Old World did not know about those people in the New. They would have been very confused if Christ had quoted from the prophets in the New World, because they did not know they existed.
Christ Himself explained this to the people in the New World: (3 Nephi 15:13-24)
"13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.
14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.
15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.
16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:
17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.
19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.
20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.
21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.
23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me."
danieljacob76 -
Yes, and 13 million people haven't been persuaded because the attacks of the critics are false. They are not true. And they have not proved Mormonism is false, although they certainly try. Our LDS scholars have addressed their attacks many many times, and have found that the critics arguments have very little to stand on. Indeed, many of the attacks are just plain deceptive, distorted, and lies.
I love this, you say "there is a general ignorance of today's LDS in regards to the history and doctrines of the church they profess to be a part of." Do you mean to suggest that members of the LDS Church do not know their own doctrine? This is almost laughable. Scott Gordon said it well, "It amazes me that some anti-Mormons claim that Mormons don't know their own beliefs and only anti-Mormons know what Mormons 'really' believe. How can we believe something if we don't even know what it is? ... It can't be a belief of the Mormons if the Mormons don't believe it."
"Jesus didn't quote from the Book of Mormon in the Old World because they wouldn't have known where He was quoting from. When He visited the people in the Americas after His resurrection, He did quote from the scriptures of the prophets from the New World"....it scares me that this makes sense to you, but then again I'm not a mormon.
Hezadanza, there is a difference between proof and persuasion that needs to be recognized. Something can be logically disproved, but still people are not persuaded. This is because we tend to cling tenaciously to our beliefs. This holds true for orthodox Christianity as well as the Mormonism. The fact that 13 million LDS have not been persuaded to think otherwise simply means they have not been persuaded. There are millions more Muslims than there are Mormons. Truth is not something determined simply by majority opinion.
Concerning the attacks of critics, check out http://www.aomin.org/
Dr. White has interacted with Mormon apologists and scholars perhaps more than anyone else. More importantly though, he frequently goes back to LDS primary source documents and interacts with them. Just as in orthodox Christianity today, there is a general ignorance of today's LDS in regards to the history and doctrines of the church they profess to be a part of.
As for looking to the heart to determine truth, refer to Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 13:13, andProverbs 14:12.
Look also at 1 Thes. 5:21 and Acts 17:11.
FT - if the LDS religion has been disproved, then why are there 13 million members still? Don't you think they would join up with other groups? Do you think we're all ignorant of the so-called exposes on Mormonism?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3803/is_199810/ai_n8808757
LDS scholars have time after time after time rebutted, successfully, the attacks of our critics. Of course the critics have nothing to say back, since they refuse to read our scholarship, and thus they think they have defeated us. Interestingly, if the critics think they have defeated us, then why do they continue to attack? Hmmmmm...
www.fairlds.org
The Book of Mormon is true. Joseph Smith was a prophet, and the Book of Abraham is true too. There is plenty of evidence for the truth of the LDS Church if one studies it out in their mind and in their heart. Only the pure in heart shall see God.
Online4Him - which is why it is even more incredible that if Christ has given us more of His word, more of His scripture, that you will reject it.
Jesus didn't quote from the Book of Mormon in the Old World because they wouldn't have known where He was quoting from. When He visited the people in the Americas after His resurrection, He did quote from the scriptures of the prophets from the New World.
Alma 32:21 - "And now as I said concerning faith - faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true" (see also Heb. 11:1, Ether 12:6).
The LDS religion cannot be "proved." No religion can be "proved." Religion requires faith.
The LDS religion, however, is one of the few that can be literally DISPROVED. It has been disproved.
Faith goes beyond reason, but it need not be against reason. For the LDS, faith is against reason. The Book of Mormon narrative has been factually disproved. Joseph Smith has been proven as a con man, an adulterer and a child seducer such that today he would be in jail or free only as a registered sex offender. The Book of Abraham has been proven to be a complete fabrication.
There are valid judgment concerns about one who allows himself to believe in Mormonism.
I responded Online4Him.
An interview with current church prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, published in the San Francisco Chronicle on April 13, 1997. When asked: "[D]on't Mormons believe that God was once a man?" Hinckley demurred. "I wouldn't say that. There's a little couplet coined, 'As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.' Now, that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about" (3/Z1).
oops. . . . .reliability. Typing to fast, lol
Hesadanza,
I agree that God has sent his witnesses already; they are the Old and New Testaments. Isaiah 8:20 says, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." The principal here is that we need to compare every article of faith by the Scriptures themselves.
The very Scriptures that you claim are in error are the same texts that Jesus quoted. He constantly quoted the Old Testament thereby giving additional support for their relyability. Jesus also stated over and over again the following: "How readest thou?, It is written, and Have ye not read". He never quotes from the alledged books from the book of Mormon.
Because God has never provided that faith be proven. That is why it is called "faith" (as in a belief in something not seen, not as in a specific church). If I could prove to you that the LDS is the true church, you would have no reason to have faith in it anymore, for you would know with surety. No. God requires faith. That is the first principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ. But after we have faith, then God sends witnesses, blessings, signs, evidence, miracles, which all help to confirm our faith is true. But we must have faith first. God will not send the confirming witnesses first. Signs follow them that believe.
Hesadanza,
If you cannot prove your "faith" as you say; how can the LDS claim to be the true church?
SummaTheologica,
I'm calling BS on your BS to me. The Vatican carries on "ecumenical" efforts with various Christian bodies, and it carries on "interfaith" conversations with various non-Christian religions. According to the Vatican's Internet site, there is no ecumenical dialogue (Christian) with the Mormons. And I can find no evidence of an active, high-profile, high-level interfaith dialogue between Catholics and Mormons. However, I could be wrong so please let me know. Thanks
ST,
Though the manuscripts do contain errors; they do not alter any theological doctirnes to my knowledge. Homosexual Marriage is an oxymoron don't you think?
Online4Him,
You cannot "prove" religious faith. We can show substantiation, evidence, support, etc, but we can't prove it. I could show you hundreds, nay thousands, of scriptures that back up Mormon theology, but you still probably wouldn't believe it because they aren't "proof". Indeed, the missionaries probably have showed you scripture upon scripture upon scripture, and you still won't believe. "Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe" (John 4:48).
The only way to know the truth is by the Holy Spirit. That is how you can prove it, to yourself.
goodnight gents... God Bless all.... I mean it.
I just know it was up for vote two summers ago and people like Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney were for it.
Online:
That is a very good post, I do think if that is the case then you would find it hard to commit to any religion because there is no such thing in my opinion as scriptural proof. Beings the bible was put together 200 years after the death of the apostles I find it hard to even hold to the Bible as absolute and inerrant. Though I do find it as the authoritative word of God even in it's errors, I leave for the possibility that man made error.
How do you think a Homosexual Ammendment should be disclosed?
Hesadanza,
When missionaries come to my door and claim that they alone possess the "truth"; then they should be able to prove their claims from Scripture. Anyone can make a claim. I need Scriptural proof to adhere to any doctrine or movement.
So I take it you are not for the constitutional amendment on Homesexual Marriage?
It does not matter to me which religion the presidential candidates adhere to; my real concern is that the Constitution is not tampered with. I believe in seperation of church and state.
Anyway.....
Would you all really not vote for a great Presidential candidate just becuase of his relgion?
Online4Him,
God's grace saves us, yes, but only if we do what He asks of us. We can't go around doing whatever we please. God has commanded us to do things, and it is our duty to do them, or God's grace will not be efficacious in our behalf. He will not save everyone that says, "Lord, Lord" but those that actually DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21). The "doing" is required to enter the kingdom of God.
Online4Him - why do you keep saying that this "burden of proof" lies with us. There's no way to prove to you the truth. That is a knowledge that is obtained only by a witness of the Holy Spirit. We couldn't prove to you that the LDS Church is true any more than we could prove to you that God exists. It is a matter of faith. And signs follow them that believe, not the other way around.
By the way, the Book of Mormon was translated in about 65 days, not three years. How did he do it? The only viable solution thus far is that it is what he said it was - a translated record. He could not have produced a book such as the Book of Mormon by himself, that quickly, and with that complexity, all from his own head.
Hesadanza,
You have misunderstood the relationship between Grace and Obedience. We are saved by God's grace alone; there is nothing that we can contribute to our salvation. Any obedience that comes forth should be done with gratitude for what "Christ has done for us already".
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure - Philippians 2:13.
It is the Holy Spirit that moves us to obey; since it is "GOD" who works in and through us - How can we claim any credit? It is a gift of God! Romans 6:23.
though I do disagree.
Fair enough online, point well made.
ST,
Do not misunderstand me; I have never said that someone who belongs to the LDS Church will be lost or that they can not have a relationship with Jesus Christ. What I am saying is this: I do not believe that the LDS Church is the "restored church" or that the book of Mormon is inspired by God.
I believe there is overwhelming evidence to prove this by merely comparing the manuscripts (Bible) which have demonstrated themselves to be Theologically, Archeologically, & Historically accurate. The Book of Mormon cannot claim the same reliability.
Truthandjustice1,
I answered your question.
Im calling BS on you truthandjustice.... The LDS church has an open and very good relationship with the Vatican, I know I have seen the pictures of Gordon B Hinckley having meetings with John Paul II and Benidict as well. There is a strong and continuing relationship there.
I have never heard of the 24,000 reliable manuscipts and I study this stuff in a theological seminary. All I have heard of recently is the Nag Hammadi and the Dead Sea scrolls. I have also learned that there is little to no biblical proof in regards to manuscipts etc... I may be wrong. Besides how could one say I believe in the Bible or God because of the facts or evidence? I don't believe that is God's plan. We are to have faith according to the fruits of the spirit (Gal 5:22-end), and judge according to their fruits Matt 7...
P.S.
Who said I was Mormon?
Online4Him,
I'll answer your statement about faith alone, but then I'm going back to the place where I answered your question. Remember the parable about the rich young man? How he came to Jesus and wanted to follow him because he believed he was the savior and stated that he had obeyed all the commandments. Do you remember what Jesus did? he told him to go away and give away all his riches to the poor and then come and follow him...the rich man went away sad. Thus, it reveals something so plainly obvious: God asked him to perform a work - to go and give away his riches...ok, now I'll go back to where we are discussing something. I really don't want to get into a mormon debate...the Vatican has open dialogue with the evangelicals, and all other protestant groups but the other groups - scientology, mormons, ...they don't even want to dialogue with them and I don't either.
ST,
Actually, you did not comment on this passages’ interpretation. What do you think it means? The plagues are still yet future if you would read this book and the entire Bible in its context. The burden of proof regarding the “True Church” lies with your claim that “Mormonism” is the restored church.
The book of Mormon history lacks any manuscript evidence whatsoever, whereas the Bible is supported by virtually thousands upon thousands of reliable manuscripts. There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and available for inspection NOW.
There are numerous ways to show the unreliability of Joseph Smith’s “Inspired Version” of the Bible. To begin with, it is a real stretch to argue that while it took a large group of the world’s greatest Bible scholars years to finish their work on the King James Version, it took Joseph Smith a mere three years to complete his work, despite the fact he had virtually no knowledge of biblical languages. Further, the fact that Smith added a passage in Genesis 50 that predicted his own coming is preposterous.
Online4Him,
I answered your question.
I apologize for sounding so negative guys... or arrogant.
Prophet:
That would be a tough one to answer. I would say God could do all of those things for you in some way shape or form. He loves all of us..
You cannot be saved by grace alone. You must obey the commandments of God.
John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 2:3-5
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
hesadanza,
so I am not saved? i am not going to heaven? God is not using me? God is not blessing me? God has not performed miracle after miracle in my life?
I understand Josh, and I will respect that.
JoshGilman - it's called "laying a snare" (Isa. 29:21). You asked me your original question in order to deliberately lay a snare since you knew I couldn't answer it directly. We don't know those details, and you knew it. That is why it was deliberately rhetorical.
Hesadanza,
If you go back and actually read James chapter 2 in its context; you would realize that James is speaking of someone who SAYS they have faith without deomonstrating it. This is a presumpous faith and therefore no faith at all. This passage says nothing about salvation by works.
One more thing, 1-3 John were written after Revelations.... So I guess we better not use those books either.... Deut 4:2 says the same thing so we better not use Joshua-Revelations either....
SummaTheologica,
I will not label which I think is more accurate as to not offend anyone nor be rude.
If you want my honest personal opinion than email me at joshuagilman at gmail dot com.
Where are the plauges? Last time I check the LDS church was the fastest growing church in the United States and the second fastest in the world? Oh, and I did comment on Gal 1:6-9, its you that has mistaken.
Summa Theologica,
Looks like you have decided to dismiss our conversation concerning the GOSPEL and the CHURCH for a discussion on gods??????????? Hmmmmmm, apparently, you did not want to comment on Galatians chapter 1:6-9, why?
Then what about Deuteronomy 4:2 – “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”
How about Revelation 22:18, 19 – “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
Do you really expect us to accept a book (the book of Mormon) that has had over 4,000 changes introduced into it since its initial publication?
Josh:
Better,
I agree with you to a certain extent, but where the heck did you get the goddess thing? That is a little extreme and no it isnt taught in the church though I don't dispute that someone could have said that somewhere in speculation. But don't you think the "LDS Jesus" sounds more accurate? For your sake I would talk to those guys in white shirts, ties and nametags that say "Elder."
SummaTheologica,
I am aware of the differences between the Jesus taught by LDS and the Jesus described in the Bible.
Here's a list:
LDS Jesus:
1. The literal son of god and his goddess wife begotten in the pre-existence.
2. The brother of all spirits born in heaven in the premortal existence.
3. One of 3 gods in the godhead.
4. The Trinity is three separate gods.
5. First one to receive a spirit body.
6. Atoned for sin on the cross and in the garden of Gethsemane.
Jesus described in the Bible:
1. Not the literal son of god and his goddess wife.
2. Not the brother of all spirits born in heaven in a premortal existence.
3. Not one of 3 gods in the godhead.
4. The Trinity is 3 persons in one God.
5. Was always spirit from eternity.
6. Atoned for sin on the cross alone.
there is a great book out there called " A different Jesus?" Its by Robert L. Millet read it if you want to know the difference between Non-Nicaean Christians such as the LDS and Trinitarian Chirstians such as yourself. Besides if you hold that you think the First Nicean council holds the authority to define Christ then you obviously belive in Post-Biblical and Extra-Biblical teachings (Sound Familiar i.e. BofM argument)? So I guess Trinitarian Chirstians believe in a post-biblical Jesus.
SummaTheologica,
This debate isn't about how dumb you think a question is. Maybe you should try contributing something useful like disproving my point and proving that we talk about the exact same Jesus instead of making rude comments on everything I and Online say.
Josh Gilman:
That might be the dumbest question I have ever heard? A different Jesus? Wow..... That is such a copout phrase I hear all the time. Use something new, like something you thought of.
Hesadanza,
I never claimed to know as much as you. Stop making things up please, it's starting to get annoying.
Hesadanza,
If that were true why do we teach about different Jesus Christs'?
Online4Him - you know as well as I do that Galations 1:6-9 refers to gospels which are not the gospel of Jesus Christ. The LDS Church teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ, so it is not another gospel.
Wow I could use Galatians 1:6-9 to say the same thing about you Online. You obviously hold claims to the 7 Ecumenical Councils which were promolgated by pagan converts.....
JoshGilman,
My recommendation is to not ask extremely fringe questions, especially one that is worded like that, since not even the best of Mormon scholars knows the details of that kind of doctrine. Those kinds of questions are usually rhetorical, which are used to prove an anti-Mormon point. And the way you phrased it was certainly offensive; it was to me.
Many times when anti's ask questions they are completely rhetorical, yes. Just because it has a question mark means nothing.
If you claim to know as much as I do about Mormon theology, then why did you ask a question that you knew I did not know all the details about? That is how it was arrogant on your part. You knew I could not give a straight answer, because we don't have a straight answer.
Here's a few scriptures about gods:
prov 82:6
1john 3:1-3
Romans 8:16-17
1Cor 8:5-6
John 10:34-38
Gen 3:22
Duet 9:10
John 17:3
John 14:28
Joshua 22:22
Psalms 136:2
Exodus 7:1
If you all are going to go with the "I get all my information from the Bible and I can use it against you" Card then it goes both ways.
SummaTheologica,
1. Looks like you need to attend logic 101. Making such a statement requires that you know all things, in which I'm sure you don't, therefor logically speaking that statement cannot be true.
2. Refer to #1. I can vouch and say that I have had considerable changes in my beliefs. For instance I use to totally reject Evolution. Over the past year that stance has changed dramatically due to research and debates.
3. Sorry, but if I remember correctly in a debate you presented evidence that went against the person you were debating.
4. I attend a church called Calvary Chapel Solano in Fairfield, California, USA. You can see our church at http://www.calvarysolano.org/. Need I say more?
5. It appears I'm behind the lingo. Care to explain?
6. Sorry, but I went to the point where I even attend Mormon services (with my friend) just to learn what they taught. What does it matter where the evidence comes from anyways? If I pulled the theory of evolution off some "garbage science site" does it therefor make it untrue?
7. There's actually only 3-4 major versions, and when debating most people tend to use the original greek (like me) for the sake of argument.
8. Wow. (Sorry I couldn't think of anything else to say)
Summa Theologica,
Actually, all I need is one passage of Scripture to support my position. What do you think of this verse? Please enlighten us Summa Theologica.
I MARVEL THAT YE ARE SO SOON REMOVED FROM HIM THAT CALLED YOU INTO THE GRACE OF CHRIST UNTO ANOTHER GOSPEL: WHICH IS NOT ANOTHER; BUT THERE BE SOME THAT TROUBLE YOU, AND WOULD PERVERT THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST.
BUT THOUGH WE, OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL UNTO YOU THAN THAT WHICH WE HAVE PREACHED UNTO YOU, LET HIM BE ACCURSED. AS WE SAID BEFORE, SO SAY I NOW AGAIN, IF ANY MAN PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL UNTO YOU THAN THAT YE HAVE RECEIVED, LET HIM BE ACCURSED.
GALATIANS 1:6-9
NEED WE HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING MORE?
Ok one more thing
If we are born into original sin then what happens to all of those little babies that die? I guess they are going to hell? I can't believe you just quoted Psalms as a point of doctrine anyway, poor choice. What do we know about Psalms anyway (I know this from my education at a Christian University) you can't take every word literally. Stop thinking the Bible is inerrant and get out of your box. Man wrote the Bible, there is errors in it, but God probably let the mistakes happen to let us figure it out for ourselves.
I beg to differ:
Both the Bible and Book of Mormon talk about salvation by grace and works. Read James.
The Bible and the Book of Mormon both talk about the Fall of man as a transgression of God's command.
The Book of Mormon says that Jesus was born in Jerusalem, but little do many recognize that Bethlehem was in the region that was considered part of Jerusalem.
The Bible and the Book of Mormon make it perfectly clear that the gospel of God has been upon the earth since Adam. What was the Old Testament for? It was God's dealings with men on earth prior to Christ, and Jehovah was Christ as a pre-mortal spirit.
The Bible and the Book of Mormon teach that children are innocent (Mark 10:14; Luke 18:16).
The Bible and Book of Mormon both teach that the priesthood has been on the earth since Adam. By what authority did Adam offer sacrifice to God?
The Bible and Book of Mormon both have taught that the righteous followers of God have built temples unto Him since Adam. What do you think Moses' tabernacle was?
The Bible and Book of Mormon accounts talk about different time periods of darkness. Could it be that they were on opposite sides of the earth? Could it be that volcano eruptions blocked out the sun for a longer time period in the Americas? Or could it be that God made it so for His own purposes?
The writer of the Genesis account quite possible was not aware of Jared and his brother (2 people), and even if he was, how would he know if their language was confounded or not if the writer's language was confounded so as to not understand them?
Devil, the
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)
God
God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (D&C 130:22).
God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3.)
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345
God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105.)
God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, pages 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428.)
God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115.) - This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it.
"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
Hesadanza,
I did not claim to know more when I asked that question. For your information I ask that to almost every Mormon I come across for one main purpose: To distinguish how much they truly know about Mormonism. You'd be suprised at how many Mormons answer no to that question. See that wasn't so bad was it? Here you are going crazy because I was simply testing your knowledge. That statement was in no way offensive, you simply made it offensive by responding eratically to it.
Here's what you basically just said: Hesadanza, what if I am right? What if you really don't become gods and you are defaming God himself by claiming that you can reach his status? You clearly don't respect God by making such horrible claims. You see the point? Making emotional statements like that will get you no where.
Indeed I did want an answer, it was a question wasn't it? Usually when a statement is followed by a question mark it's implied as a question. There was nothing rhetorical about it. Whether I said it in a rude or appropriate fashion is completely subjective. I simply asked a question, whether you choose to simply answer it, or respond with an emotional breakdown is not my choice.
Do I claim to know all about it? I know as much as you do. That you believe one day you will reach the status of God and have your own planet to govern. That's about as much as I know. And yes I know it's on the extreme side, does that make me arrogant for bringing it up? Of course not, I was simply testing your knowledge, and you sir seem to be quite educated, in which I have taken into mind.
And thank you for answering my questions.
SummaTheologica,
How about these?
Following are the teachings of its officials throughout the years. Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-Mormon writers.
Finally, many Mormons respond that most of the the citations below are not from official Mormon writings, as if that disproves the doctrines they teach. If they are not official, fine. But, if not, then why have the Mormon apostles and high officials taught them, written them, and why are their books sold in Mormon bookstores? The truth is, the following is what Mormons are taught.
Atonement
"Jesus paid for all our sins when He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane," (Laurel Rohlfing, “Sharing Time: The Atonement,” Friend, Mar. 1989, 39.)
"We accept Christ's atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all of the commandments," (Gospel Principles, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1979, pg. 68.)
Baptism
Baptism for the dead, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p. 141.) This is a practice of baptizing each other in place of non-Mormons who are now dead. Their belief is that in the afterlife, the "newly baptized" person will be able to enter into a higher level of Mormon heaven.
Bible
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. . ." 8th Article of Faith of the Mormon Church.
"Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God." (1 Nephi 13:28).
Book of Mormon
The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, 4:461.)
JoshGilman,
I agree.
Check out this website: www.lhvm.org
online4him:
You obviously no little about the Book of Mormon, don't comment anymore and stop getting your information from some anti-Mormon website. You are doing yourself a diservice. If you want to know anything about the LDS, here are some websites (and you will find them very helpful):
Fairlds.org
LDS.org
Josephsmith.net
Mormon.org
Hesadanza,
You wont win an argument with people like this because:
1. They aren't going to change the way they think.
2. When you argue with someone, it only reafirms their own opinions.
3. They will always label and claim anit-Mormon arguments because they are narrow minded.
4. They probably attend a non-denominational church or are to scared to state their denomination because that makes it easier for them to use your religion against you.
5. They will use a "strawman" on you.
6. They will make claims they gleaned from some anti-Mormon garbage website becuase they really know nothing about Mormonism or it's offical doctrines nor do they care to know.
7. Arguing with they Bible gets you no where because everyone interprets it differently and reads a different version.
8. They will always bring up some stupid argument like: "Brigham Young said this...", or " What planet are your going to create," or " what about Polygamy," or "Mormons have secret blood rites performed in the temple." You will never win. No one wins in arguments!!!!
Ok, the real reason I wanted to post is in reference to the Mitt Romney article:
All the article is saying is that 1 out of 6 Americans are Bigots and the 20-21% of people polled are also bigots. My guess would be that some of these people hate Jews and African-Americans or any other minority that is not their same Religion or ethnicity. Wow has our society learned anything since Martin Luther King Jr.? It seems we will still discriminate over something like Religion. We have laws that we vote in favor of Hate crimes such as Religious discrimination, but yet it is ok to talk about a Presidential candidate's religion and scrutinize him over doctrines and practices that are personal. Why don't we get on Huckabee or Hillary for their religions or lack there of? Why don't we use these hateful Baptist groups that protest fallen soldier's funerals agains Huckabee? Huckabee is a Baptist minister No, there is a double standard no one even thinks twice to reference Huckabee with those hatefull people. But if those people were Mormon we wouldn't ever hear the end of it.
Grow Up America!! Wake Up America!! Stand Up and Be the so called Christians you are!!
JoshGilman - you thought you knew more than Mormons when you flippantly asked "Will you one day own your own planet and create spirit babies to fill your own Earth?" What kind of ludicrous rhetorical question is that? You didn't want an answer. You wanted to prove a point.
You think I know how I'm going to be judged? I don't know how I'm going to be judged. That is for God to decide. You also take extremely lightly the sacred things of God. Think for a moment, What if I am right? What if we can become like God, and have the sacred opportunity to procreate after we have left this world, then you have just defamed His name and His gospel by asking such a frivolous, insipid, and rude question (actually it was more of a statement). I don't like when people do that to Him.
You could have asked the question in a much more dignified and respectful manner like, "Do you believe that someday you might be able to become like God, take part in His creations, and continue to procreate?" That would have been much kinder, and sincere. But then again, I don't think you wanted a answer.
We don't know if we will have our own planets. We don't know how the process of procreation among celestial beings happens. We don't know the specifics of exaltation. These things are on the extreme fringes of Mormon theology, and even we do not claim to know all about them. So why do you? That is why it was arrogant.
I like to chew on www.fairlds.org
Online4Him,
There's in fact been a lot of changes in the Book of Mormon:
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm
http://www.carm.org/lds/bom_changes.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon#Editions
Hesadanza,
Why didn't you answer my questions?
Here's some more:
Isaiah 43:10 - ""You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me."
Isaiah: 44:6 - "This is what the LORD says—
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God."
Am I going to fast?
The Bible says – Children are born with original sin. Psalm 51:5
The Book of Mormon says – Children are born without any sin. Moroni 8:8
The Bible says – The priesthood could only be through the lineage of Aaron, a Levite. Numbers 3:9-10
The Book of Mormon says – The priesthood did not need to be Levical. 2Nephi 5:26 (Lehi was of the tribe of Joseph).
The Bible says – Jerusalem was explicitly chosen by God as the one place for the temple. 1Kings 8:44-48
The Book of Mormon says – It was commanded to build temples in the Americas. Alma 16:13
The Bible says – At Christ’s crucifixion, there were three hours of darkness. Luke 23:44
The Book of Mormon says – At Christ’s crucifixion, there was three days of darkness. Helaman 14:27
The Bible says – At the tower of Babel there was one language, which was then confused by God. Genesis 11:1
The Book of Mormon says – At the tower of Babel the Jeredites had a separate language which was spared the confusion of languages. Ether 1:34-35
There are a number of contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Some of them are substantial doctrines that define key doctrines; other are factual contradictions that may or may not have much in the way of doctrinal consequences , but beg the question: Is the Book of Mormon really the “most correct of any book on earth?
The Bible says – Salvation is by grace alone. Ephesians 2:8, 9.
The Book of Mormon says – Salvation is by grace and works. 2Nephi 25:23.
The Bible says – The Fall of man was a violation of God’s command. Romans 5:12-14.
The Book of Mormon says – The Fall of man was a necessary part of God’s plan. 2Nephi 2:23-25.
The Bible says – Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Matthew 2:1.
The Book of Mormon says – Jesus was born at Jerusalem. Alma 7:10.
The Bible says – The Gospel, Church, and Christianity began following the time of Christ. Matthew 16:18.
The Book of Mormon says – The Gospel, Church, and Christianity exited prior to the time of Christ (in the Americans) 2Nephi 26:12.
Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
That means that there is one true church, not thousands. There is one true baptism, not thousands of forms. This is because there is one Lord, and He would not have this kind of confusion in His kingdom.
I know that the LDS Church is true, which is not boastful, prideful, incorrect or unscriptural. I would be lying if I said it isn't the true church. It is the witness I have received of the Spirit of God. Jesus Christ established His church when He was here in the flesh for a purpose, and that purpose was to help His people reach salvation and exaltation. If we are not in His church, then we cannot take part in the things that Christ instituted for our salvation.
Hesadanza,
I don't think I have seen such a paranoid Mormon. Not only did you make up that I'm arrogant (This is the first thing I have said in this discussion, how can you judge so quick?), but you said that I claimed to know more than you, when in all that I said I never once discussed my knowledge of Mormon doctrine. How do you know I don't know more? For your information I am an apologetic in training and have done numerous research into Mormon theology. Furthermore, I'm merely 16 years old.
You need to calm down. Let me start with this, just to warm things up some:
1. How am I arrogant?
2. When did I claim that I knew anything about Mormon doctrine prior to this post?
3. How did I defame the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
Matthew 5:48 - Jesus commands us to be perfect like God in Heaven is perfect. He is not saying that we will attain the same status as God.
Romans 8:17 - Paul talks about suffering for being identified with Jesus. Not sure what your reference meant.
Psalm 83:6 - The psalm refers to the people of Israel as gods because they represented God in executed judgment. Jesus refers to this passage in John 10:34-36.
2 Peter 1:4 - Peter talks about our divine nature when we goto Heaven. We will be perfect, never be hungry, cannot feel pain, all of these divine attributes is what he is referring to.
Here's a few more things for you to chew on:
http://www.carm.org/lds/infinity.htm
http://www.carm.org/lds/fatherseen.htm
http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_jesus.htm
hesdanza...
you said " I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's church on the earth today. It has been restored. Christ is at the head. There are living prophets and apostles who receive revelation from Christ. The authority of the priesthood has been restored."
You and truthandjustice should sit down and debate who is the "true Church". He thinks the Catholic church is the only true church. And while you two are doing that, i'll be secure in the knowledge that it's not a "church organization" (such as the RCC or the LDS) that makes up the body of Christs...its' Christians that do it. I am neither RCC or LDS, and yet God uses me and speaks to me. Our church has prophets as well whom God speaks to and through. God is working in signs and wonders among us as well. So, your statement (as well as truthandjustice) that you're "church" is the only true church is:
A. Boastful
B. Prideful (redundant, yes I know)
C. Incorrect.
D. Unscriptural
I do not boast in anything but Jesus. I don't boast in our affiliation, nor our particular congregation. A "church" is not the way to heaven. If you claim so, then you place yourself, and your church, above God.
Online4Him - they do not contradict one another. They testify of one another, and of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why do you think they contradict?
JoshGilman - I don't think I've seen more arrogance than people who claim to know more about Mormons than Mormons themselves. The way you flippantly defame the gospel of Jesus Christ is pretty incredible, especially on a Christian website. I don't know what will happen to me personally after this life, that is for God to judge. If I am faithful, then I hopefully will someday be like Him (Matt. 5:48; Rom. 8:17; Ps. 82:6; 2 Pet. 1:4).
Hesadanza,
Will you one day own your own planet and create spirit babies to fill your own Earth? If not, then you don't follow the Mormon doctrine correctly.
Hesadanza,
You still cannot reconcile the Bible with the Book of Mormon because they contradict one another. This is why the rest of Christendom accepts only the Bible. However, I do agree with your comment that you gave to truthandjustice1.
Except the original had an apostasy, which was foretold (2 Thes. 2:3).
One side says reformed the other side says restored....I'll just stay with the original.
Online4Him - I don't know how many times I need to say it. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's church on the earth today. It has been restored. Christ is at the head. There are living prophets and apostles who receive revelation from Christ. The authority of the priesthood has been restored. Angels are visiting the earth to restore their keys. Christ is preparing the saints for His second coming. The earth is being flooded with the good news of the gospel once again. Temples are dotting the earth. Christ has come to His temple, just as was prophesied. God speaks once more. Families are being sealed in eternal ties by the power of Christ's gospel and priesthood. God is working the salvation of the dead. It is a marvelous work and a wonder. Nothing could open my eyes further than the glorious light and knowledge that the restoration of the gospel has brought to this earth. No man could have conceived of this. It is far too great. Only God could be doing this work. Everything fits together perfectly, and it has brought tears to my eyes to witness it happen. I have seen far too many miracles, and have had the spirit witness to me far too many times to ever deny God. It is true!
summathetes,
Well said!!!!
Hesadanza,
In all humility and sincerity; you really need to spend some time reading your bible (kjv) for a month or so, without all the other irrelevant material. If you did this; the Holy Spirit will definitely illuminate your path as to which gospel is the true gospel.
Servent - anyone who believes that Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world is a Christian. It is that plain and simple. We don't create laundry lists of requirements for someone to call themself a Christian. If they believe in Christ and His saving power, then they are a fellow Christian. Every Christian denomination has a different set of beliefs of how one goes about actually "making it to heaven." Some believe in grace alone, some believe in grace and works, some just works, some believe all they have to do is claim Christ is their Savior and they are saved, and some believe in the divinity of the Virgin Mary. There is quite a range among the various Christian churches. But we all have one thing in common. Christ is our Savior and Lord.
I could quote a scriptures that clearly show the distinct separateness of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, but you wouldn't care to see them.
hesadanze,
it's funny you say you focus on what mormons and Christians have in common to strengthen the Christian community, however you say that if you are not mormon you don't make to Heaven. How then can you call us Christians?
again the Trinity is in the Holy Sciptures
1 Tim 3:16
16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
John 1:1; John 1:10; John 1:14
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 12:44-45
44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
John 14:7; John 14:9-11
7<b>If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.</b>
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? <b>he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? </b>
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Matthew 3:16
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
summathetes - I am a Mormon. And Jesus Christ is our Lord and God. He is the Savior and Redeemer. He atoned for our sins. He is the Word that was made flesh. Yes, we believe that!
Do you really think you know Mormon theology better than Mormons?
Of course we are different than Orthodox Christianity. We don't try to hide that. We are restored Christianity. But we also don't like to focus on our differences. It is in our similarities that we have strength as a community of Christians. We all believe in Christ and His teachings, and try to abide by them.
I think you are confused at what the Mormon was saying. At the baptism of Jesus, the three members of the Godhead were present. Christ was in the water, the voice of God the Father was heard from heaven, and the Holy Ghost descended in the form of a dove. Each one of those three are a God together, as as one they are the Godhead. Thus, God the Father is God, Jesus Christ is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. They are one Godhead together, albeit three distinct and separate individuals, as is self-evident from that event in scripture, as well as many others.
Jesus Christ is NOT God the Father! He can speak for the Father, look like the Father, and act in the Father's name, for the Father has given that to Him, but He is NOT the Father. That is what the Mormon you spoke with meant. Jesus was not "throwing" His voice into the heavens as He was baptized. That was God the Father speaking from the sky, while Jesus Christ was in the water below. And each time Jesus Christ prayed to His Father, He was not speaking to Himself. How ludicrous. There was another individual He was speaking to, and it was God the Father with whom he pleaded.
Hesadanza,
I would encourage you to really study what you do not know. I don't whether you are Mormon, but if you were, you would emphatically deny that Jesus was God in the flesh. I have invited Mormons into my home and talked with them for hours, and without question, they believe that Jesus was a "created being".
You need to listen to Mormons very carefully. They "sound" like they are Christians because most people don't ask the right questions when trying to understand their religion and they will not be forthcoming in sharing their differences of belief in comparison with Orthodox Christianity.
Let me quote a Mormon regarding the baptisn of Christ when the sky parted and a voice from heaven said "This is My Son in whom I AM well pleased." I contended that Jesus was God in the flesh, the Mormon went to Jesus' baptism and said, "So if Jesus is God, then who said that? Is He (Jesus) like a ventriliquist or something?"
Jesus is Lord? Not to Mormons who refer to Him as a ventriliquist and deny the Holy Trinity.
I don't care who you vote for. You have your agency. Just don't be a bigot.
Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior and the Redeemer of mankind, our Lord and God. If you deny us that, then you are not Christian yourself.
Everyone get ready for Hillary!
AMEN summathetes!!!!
food for thoght: why are we called biggots when we say somthing against Mormons but Christianity can be bashed on a hourly basis on tv and its just the norm.
also, I find it interesting that its not ok for people to bring up polygamy because its no longer recognized and is 110 years old but it is perfectly ok for people to bring up the crusades wich occured 912 years ago.
Just some food for thought
God bless,
Anthony
www.bellybutton88.blogspot.com
I don't care what religion you are, if you claim that:
Satan is the brother of Jesus.
God physically had sex with Mary
Only your religion can attain entrance into the highest heaven
The Bible is not sufficient apart from your own religious leaders publication
Faith through grace is not enough to receive salvation, but various works are required as well
I'm not voting for you!!!
Mitt Romney has a lot of ignorant folks duped by his last speech of Nastionalistic fervor. I especially thought he was deceiving when he referred to the founding fathers at the First Continental Congress and how they were in favor of all people of piety (as to insinuate they would approve of a Mormon leader). Mormonism wasn't even founded at that time! Matter of fact, every faith that was represented at that meeting had at least one undeniable bond. They all believed that Jesus was God in the flesh!!! Mormonism undeniably refuses to accept that truth.
To vote for Romney because he has the best chance to win is a sign of compromising one's own integrity. Like Romney who strives to isolate his faith from his identity. He's compromising his own faith.
Let us not forget the words of Charles Spurgeon, "Character is always lost when a high ideal is sacrificed on the altar of conformity and popularity."
If you choose Huckabee, the Republican party will lose the presidential nomination:
"While presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee is surging in new polls of GOP candidates, a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll released Tuesday shows he would lose to all three leading Democratic candidates by double digits in hypothetical contests."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/10/poll.head.to.head/index.html
One of the most respected conservative publications in the nation, the National Review, endorses Mitt Romney.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YmMxYTUyYzA1YTk2YzE5NGVmNjc0OGFjYWJmNzMzNjI=&p=1
Yes, it is unfortunate that when they think of Mormons they think of polygamy. The LDS Church stopped the practice of polygamy 110 years ago, and any member found practicing it is immediately excommunicated.
I think that many Americans, when they think of the Mormon church, think of Warren Jeffs. Now, don't bite my head off. I know that Jeffs is part of a sect that broke off from mainstream Mormons. But do most Americans know the difference? Perhaps not. When they think of Mormons, they think of polygamy.
I personally haven't made up my mind concerning the Republican candidates. I'm still shopping around.
It's a shame that people are willing to hand it over to someone who is completely faithless (like Hillary)....the only faith that woman has is in the Clinton name.
By the way, Huckabee's campaign has joined the fray of bigoted smearing Americans out to crush the LDS Church. How noble is that?
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gmsEReXFe-Cyo095NpBCTPFTwJCwD8TFL9B81
Oh, the prejudice and bigotry this country has become accustomed to. A candidate might be perfectly qualified for a position to serve the country, and yet just because he is Mormon the people utterly reject him. "Religious tolerance would be a shallow principle indeed if it were reserved only for faiths with which we agree."
Looks like the Republican party wants to just hand over the victory to the Hillary without a fight.
O beautiful, for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America! God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood, from sea to shining sea.
O beautiful, for pilgrim feet
Whose stern, impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America! God mend thine ev'ry flaw;
Confirm thy soul in self control, thy liberty in law!
O beautiful, for heroes proved
In liberating strife,
Who more than self their country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America! May God thy gold refine,
'Til all success be nobleness, and ev'ry gain divine!
O beautiful, for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years,
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America! God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood, from sea to shining sea!