Student Sues History Teacher Over Anti-Christian Comments

By Lawrence Jones|Christian Post Reporter

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Meanwhile, the school’s principal, Tom Ressler, described Corbett as a "solid" teacher, the local Times reported. Ressler noted that Corbett's class has a high pass rate.

Farnan, who took the class as a requirement for college admission, said that he will stay in school but stop attending Corbett’s class until the lawsuit is resolved.

“He's against Christianity and bashes it all the time. He's been indoctrinating us and not teaching the class; we don't need to be hearing his political views during school time when we should be learning,” the sophomore told the Times.

One parent, Lynley Rosa, said she pulled her son out of Corbett's class this year because of the teacher's anti-religious tone.

"The mockery of religion was a main focus in the classroom,” Rosa told the Orange County Register. “[I]t felt like he wasn't learning what he should be curriculum-wise, so I pulled him out.”

The complaint filed by the Farnan family is not the first lawsuit in which Corbett is listed as a defendant.

In 1993, Biology teacher John Peloza, who was challenging the school district’s mandate on evolutionary theory education, listed Corbett as one of the defendants with "class-based animus against practicing Christians" who used “harassment and intimidation” to force him into teaching evolution.

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Chris333 »

Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:42 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

I don't know what you mean by limited knowledge of Ethics? So far you have failed to bring any system that is objective without God. When you say ethics I think you are referring to the definition that is the study of morals. If that is the case then why did you say objective ethics? That is as impossible as saying I am an objective anthropologist. When I say ethics I mean the system by which we discern our morals, in either case without God there is no objectivity. What counter world would you bring that is better than this one? There are basically four options, one is a world where people are not given the choice between good and evil, they are just robots that always choose good, another is simply not creating this world (no people, no evil), a third would be a world where there was no distinguishing between good and evil, in other words the only choice you could make would always be good, and finally the world we live in now. As Zacharias points out well only our world is able to have love in it. And as I would add only our world is capable of having real choices, people can have a will. You brought love into this discussion, something which I have not mentioned up until now. My point was only that if we believe in objective morals then the only way they can be truly objective is if God exists. You mentioned you would be hard pressed to believe God cared about our well being (I was not ever arguing that He did, but since you decided to throw that in there...) what would you have God do, instantly kill anyone who did wrong? Or would you have one of the other possible worlds? This all goes without mentioning that if the Christian God is true, then He did do something about all the evil in this world, He gave us a way not only to overcome the evil around us, but also and very importantly a way to overcome the evil within us. I fail to see your point.
TokenSP »

Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:39 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

It would seem to me that you made these claims with a limited knowledge of the branch of ethical philosophy. Coming from this premise, I have to disagree with a lot of what you said. Whats more what you claim I again believe is absurd. If there is a God, I am going to be hard pressed to believe that he cares about our well being. If you disagree, you havent lived in our world yet. This does not come from a person whos suffered all his life and has had little love in his world. This comes from the standpoint of a realist, how can you look at this world and discern that a loving God created us this way? And if God instilled those morals into us dont you think we'd be a lot less violent as a whole? I have to agree with George Carlin's view on this whole thing that if God created this universe, he did a horrible job, and if there were any other decent universe's out there they would have given him the boot =P.
Chris333 »

Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:41 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Ethics is only the system from which we discern morals, if the moral law itself is not objective, then no system of ethics will be objective either. Just because a company decides on a specific "work ethic" doesn't make it objective, it is still completely subjective. The same goes for society, and so on. Pointing to ethics does not solve the problem, it only postpones it. We do not have to create some supreme being to make morals objective either (that would still be subjective by every definition of the word!) In other words, a believer in a created god is no closer to objective morals than the atheist is. In order for morals to be true, they must be based upon something or someone that transcends our existence. If we are a bunch of matter arranged in such a way that we are able to think and that is all, then there is no objective moral code, only a created one. Just like the created god(s), the morals we "create" are equally subjective and not real. What I mean by the next logical step is this, every human knows and feels a moral code in their hearts, it is undeniable. The only reason for this could be something beyond us. Atheism doesn't answer this, in fact if you subscribe to natural selection and atheistic evolution, then what is "right" for the species will often and blatantly go directly against what we know as good.
TokenSP »

Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:18 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

:P how is that logical? The next logical conclusion is to create a person who we deem to be the most moral being? Noo i dont believe so... Morals is a complicated question, what are objective morals? Or rather.. what are objective ethics? Well there is a whole branch of education on the subject, and we do call it ethics. If you want to know what atheists believe objective morals are, look into ethics. When people say things are unethical, or think of the ethical implications, this is what they refer to.. not moral implications or is this a moral experiment... is it an ethical experiment... bah just look into it :P.
Chris333 »

Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:29 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Token,

You do not mention what is the objective source? Cultures do not come up with the same morals, there are (or at least were I don't know if they exist still) societies that believed certain things that we consider horrible, i.e. lying, rape, murder as not immoral. And cultures everywhere disagree on many points. Moreover, if God is true then He is the Author of truth. God is not bound to the morals He creates, rather we think that these things are good because God has given us that inclination. We cannot envision a "good" god as going against "our" moral ideas because God has given us that desire. You aren't proving that morals are above God, rather you are showing just why God is so important to us as human beings. If atheism is true then the morals do not matter, they are not objective, they don't transcend God, they don't even transcend a tree or a rock, they don't exist, we create them (this is subjective at every level, not objective). Once again I applaud you for actually admitting the obvious, that morals are objective, but if you really think about it I believe you will find that the next logical step from that is that God exists. Many of the prominent atheists today are denying the objectivity of morals (as they have to), take Richard Dawkins for an example. Thanks for the conversation.
TokenSP »

Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:16 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

lol :) you guys amuse me. Well no im not saying that morals are relative to culture, im just saying that culture teaches us the same morals, where the culture learn these morals from though is ab objective source that transcends even God himself. I dont believe that what God commands is good, I believe that God commands it because it is good. If God had done everything exactly the opposite in the Bible, then by the logic that we must worship what God does, we'd have to worship everything he did the opposite way. We would be praising him for doing evil things. I say that Morals are not arbitrary to God, whats more I contend that the people who wrote the Bible wrote those morals because they knew they were good morals they saw the objective morals that transcends culture and everyone and thats why those morals are in the Bible. That is my arguement.
Ingoditrust »

Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:56 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Token, you forget that it was buttercream icing, I put forward that with buttercream icing you would have at least a 95% percent chance of taking it if you were unsure about your next meal. Ok this is getting boring now. Why in heck did I bring up the cake. I am hungry now :(
Chris333 »

Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:11 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Token,
What I am contending with is “why” we have the morals. You say that morals are objective, I agree and I am glad you feel that way, America and other advanced countries are beginning to hold a much larger perception that morals are relative (a terrible position), however as you pointed out, if God does not exist then we just get our morals from our parents and them theirs in this regression that I suppose atheism takes back to our primordial pool of “life-possible” gunk. If this is stated then morals are not objective, they are relative. What is true for one society may not be for another and so on. Why should we say causing human suffering is wrong? In the atheist argument the reason must be, because I wouldn’t want it to happen to me, or because it is bad for society (not always the case), but nonetheless saying that doesn’t make it objective, only subjective. Another point of clarification is that human laws are not objective, ever. For instance after World War II, the most popular excuse given by officers of the Nazi regime who killed so many people was that they were just following orders, to which a prosecutor replied “is there not a law above our own?” Nietzsche would reply “no”. I too have enjoyed our discussion, it has challenged me.
TokenSP »

Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:35 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I dont believe that Christians have less morals than anyone else... But yes in a sense I was just trying to say that people think Atheists are ammoral, but the irony is that you can find a larger ratio of Christians in prison... and im not talking about the population as in there are more christians so obviously there would be more christians in prison, im saying the ratios are different.. and =P that scenario doesnt compute with me about the cake because if I ever found myself in the vicinity of a cake the only reason id consider wanting some is if i was hungry, but I wouldnt take some without asking or paying first =P. If I was poor starving and the cake was there and I was uncertain when I'd get my next meal then id prob have a 90% chance of taking a piece of the cake :P.

Chris
What im contending here what im trying to argue here is that we all have the same morals. I am saying that morals is not something that is limited to the bible, but that can be found anywhere, and that those morals found anywhere are the same. It is a culture thing it is a peer thing... we learn it from our friends from our parents and our parents learn it from their parents and their friends and whats more we all learn it from laws human laws laws that are objective, they are objective. Sure you can find a few of them in the Bible, but I portend, and if you disagree with me just look up ethics for awhile just... explore that for a bit, that these ethical laws are ethical regardless of who says it. ahhh but anyways thanks for the discussion.
Chris333 »

Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:08 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

Hey TokenSP,

I am sorry that some Christians have judged you and others as not having morals, simply based upon what a person or group of people believes. That is as intellectually ridiculous as to say that Christians reject science. The point I wanted to make is that the Christian worldview does not permit a person to take advantage of another for personal benefit (or do any number of other wrongs), whereas the atheistic worldview does permit that, and the case can be argued (easily) that atheism can even support such behavior (Nietzsche as an example). Nonetheless you are right about Christianity not having a monopoly on morals, other faith systems have their own moral systems, some similar to Christianity. But as Ravi Zacharias puts well, “Jesus did not come to make bad people good, He came to make dead people live!” Morals are bound up in Jesus’ teachings, however they are not the foundation. (As many wrongly claim)

One last point about an earlier comment you made. You said that the Bible was just a good novel that was consistent and just later edited for the purpose of consistency. Here is the problem with your argument. If the Bible is perfect you say, “Aha, it must have been forged, because nothing of that scope could be otherwise.” But if there is some contradiction then you reply, “Aha, it must have been created because God would never have made a contradiction.” The argument is impossibly closed and self defeating.
Ingoditrust »

Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:25 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Oh and TokensP, I believe you forgot to take into account that it was BUTTERCREAM ICING!!! >:(
Ingoditrust »

Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:21 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I never implied that Christians are the only onees with morals and I have little respect for anyone who did. What you were obviously trying to say with your jail statistics (please do not denie it becase you know it is true) is that Christians are LESS moral than atheists and that Christians are more likely to commit crimes. In fact I do not think anyone was saying that Christians have better morals it is just that, in my eyes at least, it is alot easier to think for the future if you believe in an afterlife and a God. I find that it gives me hope. I am certain that is all Chris was saying. And if I am wrong, you can't blame me because, heck, nobody is gonna go back and read all those posts, I got halfway down the second page -_-.
Chris333 »

Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:15 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hey ifeelfine72,

I think you meant that the Bible and evolution are not mutually exclusive (I leave out words all the time though, I'm terrible with writing!). To that I agree, however the difference is that from a Christian perspective there is a cuase behind it and that is God, in the atheistic evolution, chance is the cause (an extremely poor chance some estimates put it at mathematically zero due to various tests, but a chance nonetheless) The natural outworking of that is that human beings are just a bunch of matter. In the Christian idea, regardless of the method, we are children of God, formed with great care. Regarding Nelson Glueck's statement, I chose it because he used the wonderful word categorical in defending his point, regardless of whether he is a biblical archeaologist or not, facts are facts, and we can debate him on that statement, sure, but he wouldn't say something like that without good reason to believe it. I appreciate your comment and for helping me to clarify these things.
TokenSP »

Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:18 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

My point in saying all that was the show that Christians are not some the only people in the world with morality... Morality can go to other people as well. If a cake was in the room all by itself, you wouldnt steal it because first off its wrong, but if you need to debate yourself about it then you just realize the consequence that if you steal it then you are stealing someones cake who took the time to make it either for their family themselves or to sell it for money with which they need to buy other things. Understand the consequences of your actoins and it shouldnt really be a hard choice... But if the thought even crosses your mind to steal it then I would imagine it wouldnt be hard to convince yourself to do it ~~. The first time i every got emotionally attached to this arguement was over the case of morality. Christians seriously thought we had no morals and that we were horrible people. That was the first time I took the debate personally and so that is why i reacted in the way I did, its a sore spot for me ^^;.
ifeelfine72 »

Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:32 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Chris333 - But you don't have to reject evolution to believe the Bible. The two are mutually exclusive of each other. Also, what would you expect Nelson Glueck to say? He isn't an archaeologist as much as a Biblical archaeologist. Do you expect a guy like that to say anything different? Its like asking someone from the Disco' 'tute if they believe in ID.
Chris333 »

Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:49 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 1

Archaeologist Nelson Glueck writes, "As a matter of fact, however, it may be clearly stated categorically that no archeological discovery has ever controverted a single biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible."
Chris333 »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:50 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Citizen,

I have visited skepticsannotatedbible in the past and I would not reccomend it as a site to find real contradictions in the Bible. Though some points are well made, the vast majority are laughable. Many of the supposed contradictions happen in the same book of the Bible or even in two verses right after the other. Even if the Bible was fully just a human work, no one would have made a simple error like that, if indeed it was an error. Other mistakes the cite makes are attributing something a person says or does to God (but no surprise there eh?), overinterpreting statements, and a very serious lack of scholarship in researching the actual meaning of words in the Bible. Nonetheless, some points they make are seemingly strong at first glance at face value. (There are bigger supposed contradictions they do point out that can be dealt with individually, but the vast majority of the "contradictions" they point out are down right silly even to suggest)

Regarding Finkelstein's book "The Bible Unearthed" I have not read it yet and I appreciate your telling me about it, I intend to read it. In the meantime I checked out some reviews of the book (some of which were quite long and I felt like they might have stated every major point in the book anyways) and I noticed some obvious errors that he makes. One is assuming that archaeology with a mind for discovering actual history, as opposed to biblically biased history, began in the 1960s or thereabouts. That is pathetic, archaelogists and historians have been bashing the Bible since well before the 20th century. In the late 1800s for instance nobody believed in the Hittite civilization and claimed the Bible made it up, unfortunately for critics everywhere the Biblical accounts were proven to be resoundingly true about the time and nature of the Hittite Kingdom, which went from the 17th to 12th century b.c. Which brings another point, Finkelstein claims the Bible was probably written in 700-600 b.c., now how could the "forgers" of the Bible know with such accuracy about a kingdom that was long forgotten 500 years or more ago? There are of course many other examples and you can find them very easily just by googling "Archaeology and the Bible" Or you might want to check out "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. This all goes without saying that if Finkelstein is willing to misrepresent modern history and claim that "true historical archaeology" began in the mid 20th Century (to support his own view), what is to stop him from doing the same with ancient history?
Ingoditrust »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:54 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Great way to put it Chris!
Chris333 »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:38 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 1

Hey TokenSP,

I respect your opinion and I am not saying that you do not have morals, or even that atheists do not have morals. However my point is that they are created. You say we as if all atheists should follow your idea about what morals are, on the contrary it isn't true. Suppose I took Neo-Darwinian evolution to be true, and I rejected God on the other hand. I could easily say, "We see that life in the world is based on survival of the fittest, and that weaker lifeforms are detrimental to the society on a whole" from that simple statement I could propose the obliteration of any "class" of human beings I deem lesser. Thus Hitler, thus Stalin, thus Nietzsche, all working under that mentality, that mentality is the logical outworking of an atheist idea. It would be the illogical outworking of Christianity. I am not saying that is right, I am saying that there is no good atheist argument against it. I do applaud you and thank you for having the moral conviction to take a stance that looks down on human suffering.

Regarding the statistics, I did not deny them, I said they do not represent an actual Christian perspective. If you rephrased the survey to how many actively live a Christian life and follow the Bible and Christ's example, your statistics would be different. However that doesn't mean every person who professes that actually does it anyways, all I can say is that the Christian worldview does not allow for those things to happen, atheism does.
Ingoditrust »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:35 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Oh yea and, Pastor Leo, Catholics do not pray to saints or Mary. We ask for their intercession, but praying to anyone but God is a heresy of the utmost.
Ingoditrust »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:21 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

I disagree TokensP. Say that you were dying for a piece of cake, and you happen to be in a room with a piece of cake, just the size you want, on a pedastel in the middle. It is a really good quality and with buttercream icing (NOBODY MAKES THAT ANYMORE!) You walk up to it. You pick it up. Now Imagine that you are completely alone in the room, what is there to stop you from taking the cake (which belongs to someone else) what if there were millions of people watching you and knowing that the cake was someone else's? You probably would not take it then. I believe you are a moral person who would not eat the cake anyway, but it does make a difference on your integrity if you know that there is a big man in da sky who can throw you into hell if you decide to eat the cake. That is the point I am trying to make. Please do not act like if you were about to do something bad that you would not do it because you would feel sorry for the person it affects, but the repercussions it may have do not act like this never applies to you. Pot? Kettle. Kettle? Pot And with your jail data... What is your point? More christians=more christians in jail, less atheists=less atheists in jail. Common sense. And I know what you are going to say:" Well it shows that Christians must be less moral." No it does not. This is what it shows: Yes, you are right, Christians are humans just like atheists. Yes, as humans Christians make mistakes. No, Christians cannot read minds and so we cannot know the intentions of those that join our churches. You have proved all of those things... So now what? Also I could make just as random an inference (less random than yours if you think about the times) that in fact judges go harder on christians due to hatred. 85% of judges are atheist and 75% of prisoners are Christianl. Not that outrageous, really. Here is also an interesting fact: 65% of American prisoners (not just Christian) were put in there by the ACLU which I have noticed tends to pick on tiny little fish instead of going for the big fish. They also tend to target religion. Sure they will defend a little public school girl when she wants to sing a song about god in her talent show, but they do that just so they can say they are not targetting religion. Next time you strum up statistics look for others.
TokenSP »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:54 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

A good novel regardless of its origin, is consistent to the end. As Citizen said himself you underestimate the power of editing but whats more, a novel if it is going to make any sense has to make sense. Plain and simple. They cant just say in a novel that there is a prophesy and then the prophesy doesnt come true, unless there is a lesson to be learned about false prophets. Good novels never have an event occur in a novel without some reasoning with out it contributing to another aspect of the novel. There are no random scenes in a good novel. So you say its remarkable that these writers could make such a story with such accuracy, I say it is simply a phenomenom of writing a novel. Writers do it today, writers have done it in the past, and I state again, I've read better novels.
TokenSP »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:51 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 2

There is no criteria to be an atheist, there are those who drop their religion because theyve truly thought about it and dont believe in God, and then there are those Christians who have suffered and claim if there is a God why does he allow suffering, and there are a multitude of people who dont believe in God for various reasons. If a person doesnt believe in God and doesnt expand upon his thoughts in the matter, and can easily switch back to religion, I contend that that man is not a real atheist who understands the various aspects of both sides and has come to the conclusion that it is better not to believe in God. But the definition of atheism does not extend that far, it simply states a man who denies the existence of God. So prisoners may just be Christians in name but they certainly believe in a God, and they are afraid of him, while an Atheist does not believe in a God, and they are not afraid of him. if you dont believe the statistics look it up.
TokenSP »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:48 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

Ok heres an example of what kind of morality we basically live off of... *Its raining and Joe forgot his umbrella, as hes walking to work he walks by a cafe and spots an umbrella next to where apparently a man was sitting, he takes the umbrella, and an old gentleman sitting near by who saw the whole ordeal tells Joe, how would you like it if someone did that to you?* Joe wouldnt like that. No one would like that. No one wants to be stuck out in the rain with out an umbrella. So if Joe truly considers the proposition, he would probably feel guilty and depending on his character, moral fiber be damned, he will put the umbrella back. OF COURSE THERE ARE EVIL PEOPLE OUT THERE! There are people who would steal who would rob who would kill simply because they can get away with it. I contend though that you could find a Christian man who would just as likely do this as an atheist man, and it has NOTHING to do with their moral fiber, but rather with who they are as individuals. The morality atheists fall back on are the same exact morals you fall back on except for anything having to deal with worshiping God. Think of the Golden Rule, and you'll get how everyone in America gets their morality from. That is part of our culture that rule, but whats more that rule transcends past our culture and extends to all cultures. Do you think the Bible was the first to come up with that rule? Far from it, you could find it in any philosophy or religion having almost anything to do with morality. That is our morality that we fall back on. We dont kill you because we wouldnt want to be killed but if you think a little bit further, it goes back to we dont kill you because we realize and understand it would cause you suffering.
Citizen »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:57 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

"Regarding the Bible, if any book on the face of the planet was inspired by God, then the Bible would be it. It was written over a period of 1500 years, by over 40 authors of every walk of life, contains 100s of prophecies (every single one coming true except the ones that refer to the future, i.e. the return of Christ) With such variety the over 60 books of the Bible are in incredible accord (nearly impossible to do with just two writers from a few generations apart.

First, you're wrong about the lack of contradictions, if you approach the bible honestly rather than with an eye towards pretending them away. Second, you underestimate the power of editing after the fact. Please go to www.skepticsannotatedbible.com for a full list of the contradictions.

"And to date there has not been a single archaelogical discovery to prove the Bible false, on the contrary as time goes on the Bible is reaffirmed by archaelogy again and again."

Who told you that, your pastor? Read "Unearthing the Bible" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman for the real picture of middle eastern archaeology regarding the bible.
Chris333 »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:52 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Regarding the Bible, if any book on the face of the planet was inspired by God, then the Bible would be it. It was written over a period of 1500 years, by over 40 authors of every walk of life, contains 100s of prophecies (every single one coming true except the ones that refer to the future, i.e. the return of Christ) With such variety the over 60 books of the Bible are in incredible accord (nearly impossible to do with just two writers from a few generations apart) And to date there has not been a single archaelogical discovery to prove the Bible false, on the contrary as time goes on the Bible is reaffirmed by archaelogy again and again. Not only that but the Bible and the person of Christ has affected the face of the planet more than all the emporerors and stories written combined, I am curious what "story" you read that was better? But I cannot prove the Bible is inspired by God any more than I can prove to Ahmadinejad that the Holocaust was real. I could give evidence for the holocaust all day long, and some people will still deny it because their hearts are closed to it and they desire their own truth. I can say this though, if a person is willing and they honestly reach out to God and desire to know Him and search for Him with sincerity, then if He is true (and I believe so) then based on His Word He will reveal Himself to that person, as is stated in the Bible. So while I cannot prove the Bible is the inspired word of God, I can make the case for it and show the evidence, and then let God work in that person.

By the way, facts are facts, you can call a man a liar but it is another thing to prove him a liar.
Chris333 »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:31 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

TokenSP,

Your argument is not addressing a single point I presented. It does sound good though, on some points. First of all, I said a Christian who did have a sincere belief in the Bible and in God. I mentioned nothing of being afraid of punishment, though I am not denying it as an aspect of life either. Everyone fears some authority. Rather a Christian who truly believes in God will want to do what is right (according to the example of Christ and guidelines in the Bible) because it is right. Nonetheless, even if it was just about fear and regardless of your statistics, which I believe are inaccurate but I will get to that in a moment, the fact remains, people will probably trust Christians or people of faith more because they have a definite set of values to fall back on, that doesn't mean they are right at all, that is besides the point and I wasn't arguing that. At the same time atheists do not have an overarching set of values to fall back on. Atheists are not bound by any moral code other than the one they create by themselves in their own opinions. You say something is wrong because it causes suffering, if I were an atheist and I said, "I know people are all just a bunch of matter put together over time and chance, and I feel my needs are more important than other peoples feelings" you would say I am horrible, but you could never tell me in any objective sense that I am wrong. I am just curious, what would you say to Nietzsche, would you tell him that he can't assert his will to power because it will hurt others? He was a staunch atheist. However if God does exist and He did create us with individual value and integrity, and He does have a purpose for each of our lives, then it is on an objective level wrong to hurt others for the sake of hurting them.

This is not a matter of maturity as you seem to believe, it is a matter of humility. Are we willing to submit our wills to God and do what is right by God's eyes, or would we rather create our own rules and be the masters of our own lives. You don't call a child who disobeys his parents mature.

To address the statistics you provided (not that they have anything to do with my argument, I just feel that they are used wrongly) 75% may claim to be Christian affiliated, however I would be willing to bet that a great many cannot even tell you the names of the four gospels, let alone what is in them, and especially not the epistles. Statistics like the ones you point out prove nothing; there is a difference in being a cultural Christian and an active one.

There is a difference between saying I have a bad argument, and really engaging in the issues. By the way, how do you view history? It cannot be tested multiple times or experimented with in any way. Science only explains a small fraction of the human life. Also, your last statement that you see reality for what it is, is an extremely bold claim for any person to make, I am not sure that you meant that.
TokenSP »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:09 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

You make all the bold claims you wish until you are blue in the face, but I see reality for what it is. You may rationalize all you want, and find all the experts you want who will gladly lie to the world to protect the Gospels, but in the end it wont change what the Gospels truly are, fictional stories written by men to explain the unknown. Well fooey you can keep your Bible, I've heard better stories.
TokenSP »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:05 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

Pastor, I dont believe in science because it merely goes under the category of science, that is absurd. I believe it because it is based on a set of rules and logic that can be proven through experiments and etc etc. I believe 2+2 will always = 4 because that is somethin that is evidentiary and provable time and time again. I believe in Chemistry because it is based on the rules of mathematics and observation of chemicals that can be tested in the labratory over and over again to get the same results anywhere in the world. I believe in biology because I have faith that if I dissect an animal I will find a heart liver lungs and all the other torrent of things that prove biology. Science is science because it is based on a system of logic that will work whether you believe it or not. Simply because you chose to deny gravity does not mean that you will fall into the sky one day. The same thing can be said for evolution, as proven by micro evolution and a torrent of other evidentiary circumstances. I dont have faith in the Bible because it was written by men. You claim it was through the inspiration of God? Prove it to me. Prove to me God inspired these men to write the Bible. Prove to me that the gospels were not written by many different men and that in the end the victors wrote the history books. Everyone claims its the end of the world rather its teh end of your world. Traditions are being tossed out and people who dont know any other way to live life are crying in despair. The people who change with the times survive. Have you ever read Gone with the wind? That is what I am reminded of in speaking of this. There are those who will tote the weary load, and there are those who dont know how to be anything other than what they've always been.
TokenSP »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:56 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 1

Annie, ok a relationship. In any case, I can still understand your view point no matter how much you claim to the contrary. I have developed the ability to walk in other peoples shoes and I can understand perfectly well that you need God in your life. I think anyone who manages to convince you to be an atheist has done nothing good, but rather has ruined a persons life. I dont think you could ever drop your belief of God and be happy as well. That is why I am not going to argue with you.
TokenSP »

Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:54 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

Chris, that is a very bad arguement. Which man is more mature, the man who takes responsibility for his actions admits he is wrong and feels the guilt of his actions knowing that he has only himself to blame and himself to live with, or the man who is merely worried about punishment and seeking reward? Where is the maturity in not being able to understand that things are wrong because they are wrong and not because theres a punishment behind it? To put some statistics by you, 75% of the American population is Christian, 75% of the prison population is Christian. 10% of the american population is atheist, and 2% of the prison population is atheist. The ratios are completely different, and people can claim things such as prison conversions on death row and such, but then they werent atheists to begin with. Whats more, morality transcends the scope of God. What God commands is not good because God commands it, rather it God commands it because it is good. If you disagree then you would have to admit that if God ordered you to murder your son you would be completely morally right to do so because you are obeying the will of God, while any atheist can tell you that killing is wrong period. Why? Because it causes suffering. Being mature and understanding the consequences of your actions is when you truly have morals and are responsible for your actions. Rethink your arguement it is completely and utterly unfounded.
Pastor Leo »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:56 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 2

These forums are wonderful. Even people like TheTrueBZ can make up anything he wants and be heard. What a refreshing voice in the middle of all of everyone else's misinformation. I am so blessed by his wealth of knowledge and maturity. WOW, so impressive!

Pastor Leo Bogee
Chris333 »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:31 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

Hey TheTrueBZ,

Christianity may be the majority in America but it is also by far the most attacked worldview in America and throughout the world. Watch Family Guy and see what worldview is attacked the most. I do not know how many times I have seen them bash Jesus or Christianity maybe every other episode or more, but how many times have you seen them attack Muhammad or Islam? Never, not once. Also look at University campuses, ask around the teachers and just tell them you are a firm Christian who believes fully in the Bible, you will be berated with funny looks and criticisms by both professors and students alike. Now go and say you are a Muslim who believes fully in the Quran, they will smile at you and say oh now that is interesting. How many times have you heard a professor make fun of Muhammad in the media? Not just Islam though, look at all the other world views combined and see which one is attacked the most, all the rest or Christianity (especially evangelical Christianity).

I think if there was a most distrusted group today in the minds of most Americans it would be Islam (which is not a good thing, nobody should be distrusted simply by what they believe) But perhaps the reason why atheists were the most distrusted (or perhaps still are) is because there is no overarching set of morals for them, they create their own morals, or at least try to. Take this example: A real Christian (who believes in the Bible and lives his life by it the best he can) will never go on a shooting rampage and kill a bunch of atheists. If they did then it would be completely against what they believe in and I could not say they truly believed in it. An atheist however could very well stay true to his beliefs and do that to a group of Christians. I am not saying they would or that all atheists are bad, nor am I saying Christians are good, I am saying that the atheist world view allows for that to happen, and the Christian one does not. This principle can be taken down to the smallest thing. (I want to reiterate that I am not saying all or even any atheists are like this, what I am saying is that the atheist world view allows for it, whereas the Christian one does not).
TheTrueBZ »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:12 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

Also a note on an earlier comment. Carbon dating isn't what scientists use to establish the age of the Earth. They use other radiometric dating techniques to establish the age of the Earth at a few billion years(not millions). Get your facts straight, please.

Oh, and annieforjesus, have you actually read Harry Potter?
GabrielF »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:09 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

As a teacher I have to say that here we have a clear abuse of a position. Obviously this teacher did not present a case objectively. No wonder, atheist and secularist uselly show the same, or more intolerant behavior they so strong condem in religious people.
He may be a good teacher "technically", but ethically he is abusing his class.
Good for the young guy, he is showing something that will help him in his life.
Let's see what the court will say.
TheTrueBZ »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:59 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

"Just think of it, all because a young man with Faith in his beliefs decided to challenge the establishment. Leaving society alone or ignoring their blatant attempts to destroy or remove everything and anything Christian will only embolden them."

"The world blames either Christians or Jews for everything that is wrong on the planet."

That is why he thinks you have a persecution complex. If you live in a hardcore fundamental Islamic country, then you have a right to say these things. If you live in America where Christians are easily the majority and atheists are by far the most distrusted group, where God is in our motto, our pledge, and on our money, then you need to get some perspective and stop whining.
Pastor Leo »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:32 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

Ifeelfine72,

Are you feeling ok?

The Flat Earth Society is a 16th Century organization. The belief that the earth was flat did not originate with this Society. The Chinese believe the earth was flat 500 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. The Europeans were not the first seafaring nations. They actually were hundreds of years behind other societies.

If you go beyond wikipedia’s information you just might discover that there are other sources with accurate information.

I appreciate correction when it is accurate, but what is with this martyrdom, self-pity nonsense?

Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )
ifeelfine72 »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:40 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

Pastor Leo - I am a Christian. And stop martyring yourself - it doesn't look good. Christians look foolish when they start with the self pity and the persecution complex. It is a historical fact (look it up on wikipaedia or wherever) that early Christians stated the earth was flat.
Pastor Leo »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:26 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 1

This is really getting interesting.

Just think of it, all because a young man with Faith in his beliefs decided to challenge the establishment. Leaving society alone or ignoring their blatant attempts to destroy or remove everything and anything Christian will only embolden them.

I did not say that Atheists believe in science 100%, I said I would find it HARD to believe it. If you have faith in science as your source for truth you will always be deceived. Science is not exact, admittedly, but far too many people think it is absolute. On the other hand, Christianity as your source for faith in humanity is always correct. What the Bible says about humanity is correct – “all mankind is sinful” - so if I know that up front, then I am not going to spend my life blaming people for being who they are. I must forgive them because none of us are perfect. I will therefore, put my trust in God and not in man. That is what Christianity is about in the working sense.

I do have a question, where did “ifeelfine72” get that Christianity is the source of the flat earth theory. The belief that the earth was flat was a belief long before there was Christianity. I guess it does not matter. The world blames either Christians or Jews for everything that is wrong on the planet. I guess they have to since evil will never call itself evil.

It's true! Many people hate Christians and Jews even though neither have ever done anything to them personally. You know, kind of like the racist organizations of the world. If you are insecure as a person or race, you just have to blame someone else for your insecurity. Maybe that is why great Biblical leaders such as Joshua and Gideon, who were both BLACK JEWISH MEN, were not acknowledged for being so.

Jesus said that they will hate you as they have hated Me. Can you believe it, He was right? Does it make you wonder if Jesus was right about anything else, scientifically speaking, probably not?

This is the End Times. Evil is called good and good is called evil. Everything is right on schedule with the Lord. Hang on to your beliefs and they will take you directly to the reward that you deserve. "Whoever rewards evil for good, evil will not depart from his house" Proverbs 17:13. Of course this scripture is not scientifically proven, so it must not be true, just ignore it.

Are you Ready? Are you Sure? I pray that you are.

MERRY CHRISTMAS to you all,

Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )
anniefourjesus »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:59 pm Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

To TokenSP: "I understand exactly what religion means to you guys and how it all fits together for you guys" First let me explain, I do not have a religion, I have a personal relationship with Almighty God and you cannot understand how I feel about this. You could never change my mind, because my heart is involved. No human being can fully understand the human mind, as GOD designed the human mind. No man can know the mind of God except The Spirit of God. As a Child of God, having been redeemed, because the Lord lives in me and The HolySpirit lives within me, I can discern Holy Truth, and The Bible is Holy Truth and without The Holy Spirit one cannot discern Spiritual Truth. So the Bible is foolishness to those who are perishing but it is the power of God for us who believe.
I did not always believe God's Word, as I grew up in foster homes, and abused by humans. I know fully in my mind today that I knew all along GOD was real, and even when I didn't fully grasp many things in life, one thing I did know, God was real. My concept of Him was wrong, it was based on human attributes which HE does not possess as HE is Spirit!

Human reasoning can always find a way to dismiss God, I know I did. It doesn't make the TRUTH of GOD any less true. Today, I walk with The Almighty and I am thankful for His love, grace and forgiveness in my life. I love that I have a peace that even in the middle of some real crisis, I have this inner peace that I have never known, no human gave me this, not ever!

So, again it comes down to belief, we either believe God or we don't. I am here to testify that God is real and HE is so good and so kind to all that He has made, even when we reject Him.

I look around this world today and I am so thankful that HE showed me HE is real and HE has a plan to save us from ourselves or as we can see, man could literally wipe all life from the planet. And if you think for one minute that isn't real, then you really have a reality problem.

So on that note, I pray that you will see that in man there is no good thing, man is wicked and evil to the bone and without the blood of Jesus to cover our sin, there is no salvation for mankind. Thank you Father God for the blessing of Your Son and I pray many will decide to give their lives to You today in Jesus Name, Amen
TokenSP »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:36 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 3

It is a bold statement to claim one believes in science 100% lol... I dont believe everything I hear otherwise I would be a Christian because I was told this before I learned anything about science :P and I became atheist before I knew about science. I have a fascination with psychology, and I do actually understand alot about the human mind... I've always been intuitive about it and Im intuitive about it now... I understand exactly what religion means to you guys and how it all fits together for you guys... which is why I dont really want to take it away from you guys if i had the power to do so, but I want people to stop defending illogical beliefs... and to get a more responsible frame of morality. When you are worried about punishment or reward from a God or something thats not being mature and taking responsibility for your actions... anyways I dont believe 100% in science, I just think if the Bible and Science explain how something works im going to have to say that science will have used more evidence to prove their conclusion.

annie!
We get it! You love God. You are quite a tad bit too enthusiastic about it... Its a bit overwhelming... ^^ just a suggestion... bring it down a bit...
maranatha7593 »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:11 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 1

The Bible describes the "circle of the earth". No problem there.
maranatha7593 »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:11 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

It's about time that someone draws attention to this issue, which I know for a fact has been going on for decades. Our public schools are supposed to be neutral, but of course they are not, and this makes that perfectly clear.
ifeelfine72 »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:56 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

PastorLeo - Just when I was onboard with you, you lost me. Science didn't say the world was flat - early Christianity did. And that was proven false by science not Christianity. Evolution is a theory like gravity is a theory. Science doesn't disprove God anymore than the converse it true.
anniefourjesus »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:12 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

Thank you Pastor Leo! We are not called to prove that God is real. However, God does say that we are His witnesses that He is real and that He is God and there is no other! I gladly give testimony to what HE has done in my life. We are to give the reason for the hope that we have, but we are to do this in a respectful and loving way!
Thank you Pastor Leo for your testimony! I love the Word of God, do I understand all of it (no, I don't) but that doesn't stop me from reading it, under the guiding hand of The Holy Spirit.
We have entered the End Times, where scoffers abound, demons are teaching destructive heresies and many are falling away from the body of Christ, all prophesy for our times.

The more I see these events unfold the closer I draw to my Lord, Jesus Christ. Narnia is an allegory based on The Truth, and Harry Potter is strictly fiction and steeped in witchcraft which is an abmonination to God as all sin is. We do not get to pick the parts of the Bible that we will obey, The Bible is God breathed, God's plan of salvation for man.
Man can either accept God's Word or he rejects it, either way we make our own choice and we have to live or die with that choice.
Until the Day of Christ, my work is to spread the Gospel and if necessary use words!!!
For all the unbelievers, (and those who approach God on their own terms) God isn't looking for those who keep religion, HE is looking for those who want a relationship with Him!

Man likes to think he can come to God anyway he wants, or to outright reject Him. Well there are consequences to all choices and God is Holy and Sovereign and it is an insult to our Creator to think such things! God bless this young man for standing up for what he believes! Christians are going to be based, persecuted, etc for their faith, it's part of the calling!
Pastor Leo »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:11 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 1

I find it hard to believe that even an Atheist would believe in “science” 100%. If it cannot be proven by “science” then it is not true? Now, that is absurd. Science has been wrong on millions of issues. Science isn’t reality – it is theory.

At one time the entire world believed that the earth was flat because the scientist of the day said so. Theory is unknown and unproven issues. How many times has science declared that they have found the answer to, you name it, and then realized that they didn’t? Basing your belief system on science guarantees that you will never know the truth about anything. Creation is so dynamic that science has to make up theories to disprove it, like the “Neanderthal Man Theory LIE.” Don’t teach my children about evolution, unless you say it is a THEORY.

I am not saying that science is not important to the development of humanity, but let’s keeps it in its proper perspective. Human beings decide on truth by the scientific tests that they MAKE UP. If the earth is millions of years old because of carbon dating, then who decided that carbon dating is real? It is not a real, but a theory.

I have a respect for science. I spent 10 years in pharmacy and studied science for years, but at no time did I look to science for answers for human behavior. EVERYTHING that the Bible says about humanity is true. Humanity is sinful, not basically good, as science would have you believe. Humanity seeks after self-gratification because that is how humanity was created. Humanity has FREE WILL, therefore the ability to choose between good and evil. (Of course you can deny that there is evil or a devil and just go on believing that humanity is good and ignore the devastation that humans do to other humans.) Free will demands that there be choices directly opposite of each other. Humanity will always choose evil unless there is some power greater to direct them away from evil.

The Bible, the Word of God, Jesus the Christ is the power that directs humanity away from evil on to love. Because humanity is not perfect, and it never will be, no one will live right all the time. It is the pursuit of love, loving, and turning away from evil that separates humanity from its sinful nature. Biblical Christianity (because the playing field is filled with numerous non-Biblical players) COMMANDS humans to love one another and to love their neighbor as they love themselves. The hard part is the loving ourselves command. It is a life’s work and pursuit, discovering how to love ourselves so that we can truly love someone else. However it is a life so much better with love than without it.
I better add, that love is NOT a feeling or an emotion and it is certainly not some sexual act, it is 1 Corinthians 13:4-8.

I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF! Christianity is worth defending.

Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )
TokenSP »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:29 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 3

What I meant by absurd was that a person cant not believe in the Bible and not grasp it. Whats there to grasp, its pretty straight foward. But on further note, when I said I cant fathom why a person would believe in the Bible 100%, there are scientific claims in the Bible that have been disproven by science itself. Let the Bible explain why, and leave the how to science. This has little to do with all the other flaws I've seen in the Bible.

Fine, its perfectly alright to claim that you can only believe in the Bible 100% or not at all. I lose nothing from this, I already know where I stand. If you believe in the Bible 100% though dont try to teach my children creationism as opposed to evolution, and I would ask that you stop preaching to him BUT that would be asking a tad much.

And youre right you dont need to prove to anyone what God has done for you. Personally, if God does exist hes done little productive things for me. For the most part anything Im proud of I've accomplished on my own. The only things in my life that were of the depressing variety were done out of my control, and presumably could be attributed to God.

Bleh its a touch subject religion... I really am beginning to hate the debates. We may claim what we want but in the end we still remain on opposing sides, a tragedy i admit. Id like nothing better than for man to live in harmony with eachother, to be peaceful civil and contribute to prosperity when ever possible. I quite simply do not believe past generations are going to ever drop their faith. Its been instilled in them, it is a characteristic of them, it is what defines them at this point. We will just have to wait and see what our next generations are going to bring, and the next and the next. I have faith that it should be quite interesting.

One final note to Chris... atheism is not based on faith nor is atheism a belief system. Atheism is a lack of belief in Gods. That is the only similarity shared by atheists. I do not share the same beliefs as a lot of Atheists, we are all as different as you and I. The only unifying theme we have is that we ardently do not believe in God and we reject him as that he is invisible and unable to be proven. Personally I like to take the path of the agnostic, but Ive realized long ago that agnosticism is trying to take the middle ground, in a debate that doesnt allow for the middle ground anymore. Anyways we are well within reality, I dont understand how you think otherwise.
ifeelfine72 »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:02 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Pastor Leo - I have disagreed with you in the past about things but your most current post here makes a lot of sense.
WiccanTexan »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:44 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

"Sheesh, I went to a Catholic school (In the 1960's mind you) and even then if a nun made a joke about old christianity in Europe she would not be punished."

Catholic school is privately run. It would be OK for her to say something in class. However, this lawsuit concerns a public, tax-paid school where it is NOT OK. Big difference.
Pastor Leo »

Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:40 am Agree: 5 Disagree: 0

I believe that everyone, including Christians, have problems believing EVERYTHING that the Bible says. However, the things that I don’t understand (quite a substantial amount of the Bible) I don’t declare not to be true. God’s commands do not say do only what you understand or agree with. It is by my obedience that I do what the Bible says when FAITH is required. Faith has NOTHING whatsoever to do with reason. If I can reason it, then I don’t need faith to believe it or to obey it.

I was raised Catholic. I attended Catholic school for 12 years in the 50-60’s (I was born in 1947). I did not think that I was a Christian, but a Catholic. I never read the Bible; I prayed to all of the “saints” and Mary; I went to church once or twice a year in my adult life for over 20 years, and my life was a disaster and death was calling for me. I did not know about the promises in the Bible or that they mattered.

I don’t have to prove to anyone that Jesus is my Lord and Savior or that He is the only way for salvation and eternal life. How can I ever prove the truth of this to anyone? By faith, I believe it and only by another person’s faith will they believe it. “…God has dealt to each one a measure of faith” Romans 12:3 (this measure of faith is to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior). We all have it, but it is completely up to each person to use it or ignore it.

I served on active duty for 25 years. I served in Vietnam; went through 2 divorces; have hurt and have been hurt by too many people to count; I have seen hundreds of dead, wounded, sick, and hopeless people, but I never knew that there were answers that made sense of all of this chaos on the earth. At 41 years young, I found out about the Bible and the rest, as they say, is history.

I know what I have lived through and no one can tell me that Jesus is not real in my life. I have been too close to death and destruction, far too many times not to recognize that I have found the Truth and more importantly, the source of the Truth for my life. Others may not have to read the Old Testament over a dozen times or the New Testament over 50 times in order to believe it, but I did and continue to do it.

Christians have a right to stand up for the Bible and the right to stop blatant attacks against what we believe. Bullies, like this teacher, use fear to shove their beliefs down others throat. Chad did the right thing to fight back. I hope he doesn’t let anyone tell him to back off. His parents should be proud of him.

If it is absurd to believe that the Bible is the written word of God, then so be it. Death is certain and so is eternal life after death. No one will be left out! What truth do you know to stand on?

Are you ready? Are you sure?

Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )

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