The majority of Americans believe the Biblical story of Jesus Christ being born to the virgin Mary literally, according to a survey released Monday.
Three out of four adults (75 percent) said they believe in the gospel narrative of the birth of Jesus Christ, found a nationwide survey conducted by The Barna Group.
Out of the sixty population subgroups in the research, there was only one group where a majority of respondents did not take the virgin birth literally. The exception was atheists and agnostics – among whom only 15 percent said the event happened literally.
Surprisingly, a solid majority of self-described liberals on political and social issues (60 percent) believed in the biblical view of Christ’s birth.
The Christian polling organization surveyed over 1,000 adults on a half dozen biblical stories to find out if they view those stories to be factually accurate or to be narratives that were not factually accurate but rather meant to teach principles.
Most of the respondents indicated that they accepted five of the six stories – the virgin birth story being the most widely accepted.
The next most literally accepted story is the turning of water into wine. Seven out of ten adults (69 percent) believe Jesus literally turned water into wine at the wedding in Cana.
Yet there was a large discrepancy in subgroups, with born-again Christians most likely to accept the story (94 percent), compared to unchurched adults (42 percent). Protestants, African Americans, conservatives, and residents of the South were also more likely than their counterparts to embrace the story.
The story of Jesus feeding the crowd of 5,000 with five loaves of bread and two fishes, and then collecting 12 basket full of leftovers was accepted literally by 68 percent of respondents.
Meanwhile, a smaller but still majority of Americans believe in Noah’s flood (64 percent) and the story of the serpent tempting Eve to eat the forbidden fruit (56 percent).
More than four out of five born again adults embrace the story of Eve while less than half as many among the non-born again subgroups believe in it. Only eight percent of atheists and agnostics accepted the story.
Americans were least likely to accept literally the story of Samson’s strength being derived from his hair and Samson losing strength when Delilah cut his hair. Only half of the population (49 percent) accepted the story as completely accurate.
Born again Christians (72 percent) were the most enthusiastic in accepting the story at face value. Interestingly, females were more likely than males to accept this story as the truth.
In general, born-again Christians, Protestants, residents in the South, and those who describe themselves as politically conservative were more likely to accept the biblical stories in question as literally true.
"Americans are clearly knowledgeable about many of the key Old Testament stories, but they are also more comfortable accepting the stories drawn from the life of Jesus and the New Testament," concluded researcher and author George Barna, founder of The Barna Group.
"Many people seem to divide the Bible into two separate and unequal portions: the Old Testament, with what they perceive to be allegorical stories, and the New Testament, with what they believe to be factual history," he said.
The telephone survey was conducted by The Barna Group in December 2007 among a random sample of 1,005 adults, age 18 and older.
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"As an agnostic, when I hear people tell me god spoke to them.. I wonder, is god really speaking to them"
Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice, and a stranger they will not follow."
there are a lot of things I used to be, that you could blame on genes, that I am no longer, because of the power of Jesus.
oh yes...the ol' "gene for everything" excuse. I lean more towards the "God can change a person" argument. But, then again, you don't believe in God the way I do.
jester, believing in something is not just something that you decide to do or not. Some are predisposed to say believing in god, others are not. There is likely a genetic component to it. I believe its possible that there exist religiosity genes. I dont seem to havve them.
an agnostic is a failed athiest. (just kidding). An answer would do nothing for you since you blatantly do not believe in hearing from God, and you have no intention to start believiing.
75% ?,believing in the virgin birth is not the same as trusting in Christ's finished work for our salvation.I wish 75% of all Americans were Christians.
OK Jesters, you really didn't answer my questtion. I guess you really dont have an answer. When pat robertson comes up with some of his nutty stuff and says god talked to him, i figure its his imagination and/or should be on meds..
PS, agnostic does not mean atheist
No, Rube...its usually just gas. Like that voice that keeps telling you that God's not real.
As an agnostic, when I hear people tell me god spoke to them.. I wonder, is god really speaking to them or perhaps they need to be on meds. How would one know if god is talking to them or its simply a manifestation of ones imagination? I tend to suspect the latter.
For those who have come to know the Lord Jesus Christ – Greetings,
I have been reviewing the latest postings; it is evident that Citizen has refused the kind gestures, prayers, invitation to know and accept the evidence for the Christian faith. Let us continue to lift him up in prayer, -
For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion – Ecclesiastes 9:4. There is still hope for all the living.
At the same time; Jesus told us – “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you” - Matthew 7:6.
Let us not continue to give that which is holy to mockers and skeptics who seek not to know the truth in sincerity.
Citizen,
"I'm not obsessed with death as the end of life as you are. I accept that, and in fact it makes life all the sweeter for being so fleeting. This life is an incredible opportunity, and its such a waste if a person refusing to live to the fullest, making things better for everyone now and in the future, and enjoying love, friendship, and all the joys and sorrows that come with being human, and that's enough. "
I will agree with you on that part and I live my life to the fulliest with a wife I love, Friends I adore and a God I choose to serve.I don't find life a waste. I don't find one minute I'm here a terrible injustice. I don't dwell on death or hell because I am sure of my outcome. As Paul says:
"16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal."
"That only looks like nothing to you because you are greedy for more. It's like saying Arnold Schwarzenegger can't be considered strong because he isn't strong like superman. But Superman doesn't exist."
You terriblly misjudge me but that is OK. I forgive you. I really do I'm not greedy for more. Serving my God is not greed nor is it selfish. It is my choice. You think me foolish but that is ok also. I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power to salvation for everyone who believes. I will continue to pray for you Citizen. Good day.
"You had pre-knowledge that touching the stove was wrong, you did it anyway and suffered the consequences."
Except if the parents are your god, after the child disobeys them and touches the stove, they don't kiss the wound, clean it and bandage it, they throw the child out of the house. jThat's not loving, that's totalitarian.
"For someone who thinks this is a myth, you spend a lot of time worrying about Hell."
You mean I spend a lot of time dumbfounded that anyone could think such a thing just, and that such a myth could the foundation of any kind of morality we'd want to encouragae.
"So in your world there is now moral basis for good and evil because there is no punishment or reward for either. Do what ever you want and God has to except it because he created us in the first place."
Yes, there is, because morality has no need of a dictator to impose it, and punishments and rewards come from our fellow human beings.
"So your argument is nothing but dust because all you have is your belief in your disbelief. Again, your world view offers no solution to any of the reasons of existence other than eat, breath die and hope you procreate before you do the last."
I'm not obsessed with death as the end of life as you are. I accept that, and in fact it makes life all the sweeter for being so fleeting. This life is an incredible opportunity, and its such a waste if a person refusing to live to the fullest, making things better for everyone now and in the future, and enjoying love, friendship, and all the joys and sorrows that come with being human, and that's enough. That only looks like nothing to you because you are greedy for more. It's like saying Arnold Schwarzenegger can't be considered strong because he isn't strong like superman. But Superman doesn't exist.
"Well, how unfortunate for you….he cares about you and he may not be sympathetic of you characterization of Him, but the blood of the Lamb will cleanse that and he will forgive you."
Mythical forgiveness for mythical wrongdoing as decided by a mythical being. What's important is what my friends and family think of me.
"No I cannot judge God because his ways and outcomes are perfect"
Then how did you judge those ways and outcomes perfect hmmmm?
Citizen: “Somehow, I really don't care about the wellbeing of such a tyrant. The god character in your myth is not sympathetic at all.”
Well, how unfortunate for you….he cares about you and he may not be sympathetic of you characterization of Him, but the blood of the Lamb will cleanse that and he will forgive you.
“The innocent sacrificed is the victim. That's right, that's what my arguments are based on (in addition to the logical incoherence and lack of evidence), and you can't handle them, because you are locked into claiming that your god is just, merciful, loving, while utterly failing to demonstrate any instances of those traits, at which point you all sometimes claim that humans can't judge god, which leaves the question of how you managed to judge him just, merciful, etc.”
Wow….took you awhile to come up with that one huh? This is not the forum to go over all the evidence out there, nor how your arguments are like some warped vendetta.
I will say that I handle just fine. The Lord is my strength. With that I handle your hate- seeped arguments great. No I cannot judge God because his ways and outcomes are perfect. I give him the traits of merciful, just, loving, ect, from his actions in the Bible and His actions in my own life.
Citizen: “No, I think the myth you believe features such a god, which is not a commentary on whether said entity exists. I've still waiting for anyone to even present a non-logically contradictory god and evidence to support that claim. Your myth talks of free will, but also has eternal torture for choosing not to. That's like claiming that a carjacking victim has free will whether to turn over the car when the 'jacker has a gun to her head.”
For someone who thinks this is a myth, you spend a lot of time worrying about Hell. I guess you live in a universe where nothing comes with a price. I can go through all the attributes of God and his perfection and re-explain to you all of those principles of why God loves us and why He despises sin, and why He wants to punish us for sin but because He loves us, He wanted us to be able to have retribution, but you’ve heard it all before and will come back with all the non-logical, contradictory, ad nauseam.
Citizen: “You claim your god made hell, and if you claim your god is also omniscient, then your god is the type that will devise eternal torment with full knowledge of the suffering engendered thereby. Then he decides that disobedience or lack of interest is sufficiently evil to continue to institute hell. Again, infinite punishment for finite crimes. Your god is a cruel dictator.”
Oh good Lord(shakes head and rolls eyes)….you spend all the time tearing at God and do your best to instill hate into him and then you call him unjust for placing people away from him who don’t believe in him or don’t want to be around him.(Which is what those people want in the first place) So in your world there is now moral basis for good and evil because there is no punishment or reward for either. Do what ever you want and God has to except it because he created us in the first place. You’re the old adage of “Everybody wants to go to Heaven.” But then again, it is a myth to you? You really don’t believe do you? So your argument is nothing but dust because all you have is your belief in your disbelief. Again, your world view offers no solution to any of the reasons of existence other than eat, breath die and hope you procreate before you do the last. These words in our argument are fleeting, just like your world view, but the prophet says: “As the grass withers and the flowers fade the word of God lives forever.” Sorry, I know that is bad news for you.
Citizen: “And if you don't know right from wrong, there is no way to make that choice. Is obeying god right or wrong? without the knowledge from the fruit...how were they supposed to know?”
This logic is so circular. If you were told as a child by your parents not to touch a hot eye on the stove because it was hot and you touched the stove and burned your fingers is it wrong? Yes, you touched the stove and disobeyed your parents. Is disobeying your parents wrong? Yes, because they set up the guidelines for you not to get hurt. You had pre-knowledge that touching the stove was wrong, you did it anyway and suffered the consequences.
Same thing with the Garden. God had one rule:
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Pretty clear to me….. You have a rule and a punishment for the rule.
Citizen: “Again, they didn't know whether it was good to listen or not. And whose fault was that?”
God created Adam and Eve. He is their Creator and Father. He had the rule and they disobeyed it……it is their fault.
"You've been getting this wrong a long time too. He ddin't just sacrifice some innocent person....he sacrificed a part of Himself. You've heard the arguments before but your so smug and sure of how right you are that you have missed the point. It slipped you. It's Ok, the Bible tells us that it confounds the wise. Your arguments are either based on God is cruel or tyranical, or asking someone to step away from their faith to see it your way. I know you get a kick out of rattling the cage. That is why I'm still praying for you. "
Somehow, I really don't care about the wellbeing of such a tyrant. The god character in your myth is not sympathetic at all. The innocent sacrificed is the victim. That's right, that's what my arguments are based on (in addition to the logical incoherence and lack of evidence), and you can't handle them, because you are locked into claiming that your god is just, merciful, loving, while utterly failing to demonstrate any instances of those traits, at which point you all sometimes claim that humans can't judge god, which leaves the question of how you managed to judge him just, merciful, etc.
"God told them not to eat the fruit from that tree so the were equiped to make the choice because they knew it was against God's commandment to eat of the fruit, hence came the choice...."Do I eat it or not." "
And if you don't know right from wrong, there is no way to make that choice. Is obeying god right or wrong? without the knowledge from the fruit...how were they supposed to know?
"It's their fault for choosing to disobey. They had the essential knowledge...they were told to eat of any fruit but from the one tree. That is pretty clear."
Again, they didn't know whether it was good to listen or not. And whose fault was that?
"What does that actually mean. You think God bullied people into worshiping him? Then there is hope for you Citizen, because you are admitting there is a God."
No, I think the myth you believe features such a god, which is not a commentary on whether said entity exists. I've still waiting for anyone to even present a non-logically contradictory god and evidence to support that claim. Your myth talks of free will, but also has eternal torture for choosing not to. That's like claiming that a carjacking victim has free will whether to turn over the car when the 'jacker has a gun to her head.
"You been getting this mixed up for a loooong time Citizen; God didn't make Hell for you or anyone who doesn't believe in him. He made it for Satan and his angels. If you choose to avoid God and reject Him he grants that person's wish and puts them there. Exactly where they want to be, seperate from God. But you don't want to go to Hell, remember it wasn't designed for you, your a tresspasser there. Don't blame God, blame yourself. "
You claim your god made hell, and if you claim your god is also omniscient, then your god is the type that will devise eternal torment with full knowledge of the suffering engendered thereby. Then he decides that disobedience or lack of interest is sufficiently evil to continue to institute hell. Again, infinite punishment for finite crimes. Your god is a cruel dictator.
rubinlueski: Almighty God created man in His own image; God being love He created man to be the carrier of God's glory. God tested their FAITH and obedience to Him, and why should He not. He is Almighty God! He is the Potter and we are the clay and HE can shape and mold us anyway He likes. Man is so arrogant to think he had anything to do with anything. It is all God, and HE loves us and wants to share in a relationship with man, and man is just too big for that kind of thing! The LORD doesn't need me to defend Him, so I won't; but I will give my testimony of how HE restored my life after humans nearly destroyed it (including myself)!
I see people in my daily commute to work who are so angry, so tired, and so mean and nasty and I have with tears in my eyes asked God why HE loves us so much and that HE died for the likes of us, that is what is truly amazing to me. So, if you choose to ignore Him, dismiss Him, this is your choice, NOT HIS!!!!
Thank you Father God, for not leaving us to ourselves! Merry Christmas!!!
This is what I believe: God created Adam and Eve; HE blessed them abundantly, and had one thing HE told them not to partake of (apple, whatever doesnt matter) Satan enters the picture, he says to Eve, "did God really say," he persuades her (tempts her) now she has a choice to make, and she is seduced to sin against God and then she runs to Adam and tells him, (Adam had been created before Eve and some historians believe that Eve wasn't created for a time and so Adam knew God longer) and Adam willfully sinned against God when he took what Eve offered him and did partake of the fruit. What was done that day was willful disobedience.
When satan rebelled against The Most High God, he was thrown down on the earth, and when Adam sinned, sin entered into the mortal race, the flesh was corrupted and the spirit of man was dead. Remember, GOD breathed LIFE into the man (that was Holy Breath) and now it was corrupted. The wages of sin is death, and the only way to pay for that was the shedding of blood.
So, God being in the form of a man (Jesus) came and took the punishment that was meant for me. I was not innocent and neither is any other human being. God is The Creator in love we were created, man rebelled, not God. Then I have my own sin to add to that, and I confessed that Lord, I know I am a sinner, and I accept with gratitude what Jesus Christ did on the Cross for me. I want to have an eternal relationship with My GOD! HE loved me so much HE came and DIED FOR ME and the world. This is not something to take lightly Citizen!
You can continue in your hardness of heart, or you can pray a simple prayer, Lord, I don't understand all of this, and I have so much unbelief, but I want to believe, please help me to know that You are God and that You love me too! HE answered that prayer and I am so thankful!
Citizen, you could never persuade me to go back to a worthless life of humanism, it is meaningless! We were created to love God and to be loved by Him and one another! I will live in love with The GREAT ETERNAL GOD. HELL is eternal separation from GOD and thank you, LORD that I do not have to go that way!
I continue to pray for you Citizen and others who have hardened their hearts against the Lord God! Once I was blinded too, but I give HIM praise that HE opened my heart to see Him as HE truly is and taken me from the kingdom of darkness into The Kingdom of Light!
rubinlueski,
God wasn't putting guidelines in to test Adam and Eve. If you have a child in your house, do you place rules or guidelines in the house for that child to follow? Do you do it to protect the child or test the child?
rubin....
Ok.
Adam & Eve & the fruit, story sounds like pure fiction to me. Creator of the universe hasn't anything better to do then test a couple of life forms, on a little speck of a planet in the vast cosmos, for obedience? As an agnostic, fruit story is a bit hard for me to swallow.
Citizen
"jester: ok, assume they had free will. They still didn't know the difference between good and evil without eating the fruit. So how can you blame for making a choice they weren't equipped to make in the first place"
God told them not to eat the fruit from that tree so the were equiped to make the choice because they knew it was against God's commandment to eat of the fruit, hence came the choice...."Do I eat it or not."
"They didn't know which option was good and which was evil. Whose fault is that? The one you think created them without that essential knowledge in the first place. Your god. "
It's their fault for choosing to disobey. They had the essential knowledge...they were told to eat of any fruit but from the one tree. That is pretty clear.
"and yeah, you believe we have free will to love. The same free will a carjacking victim has."
What does that actually mean. You think God bullied people into worshiping him? Then there is hope for you Citizen, because you are admitting there is a God.
"Because you always forget the coercive, abusive, evil threats of eternal torture for crimes which are by definition finite."
You been getting this mixed up for a loooong time Citizen; God didn't make Hell for you or anyone who doesn't believe in him. He made it for Satan and his angels. If you choose to avoid God and reject Him he grants that person's wish and puts them there. Exactly where they want to be, seperate from God. But you don't want to go to Hell, remember it wasn't designed for you, your a tresspasser there. Don't blame God, blame yourself.
"Therefore, the deal your god offers is prima facie unjust, like a judge who punishes a jaywalker with the death penalty unless some innocent person sacrifices themself. That's not justice, that's corruption and tyranny."
You've been getting this wrong a long time too. He ddin't just sacrifice some innocent person....he sacrificed a part of Himself. You've heard the arguments before but your so smug and sure of how right you are that you have missed the point. It slipped you. It's Ok, the Bible tells us that it confounds the wise. Your arguments are either based on God is cruel or tyranical, or asking someone to step away from their faith to see it your way. I know you get a kick out of rattling the cage. That is why I'm still praying for you.
As an agnostic, I have oftened wondered how the free will thing would work in heaven? Is the free will removed. I know plenty of folks who claim to be "born again", "saved" whatever you want to call it, dont get along well with their fellow human beings. I cant imagine spending anymore time with them then I have to. Would they be transformed in heaven? would their original character be altered? If a person is unpleasent on earth, why would that person be any better behaved in heaven? One thing I do know for sure, being "saved" does not necessarily make you a better person from the standpoint of how one treats their fellow human being, or other living creatures for that matter. I know atheists that treat people and other animals better than some "saved" folks I know.
cont'd: and yeah, you believe we have free will to love. The same free will a carjacking victim has. Because you always forget the coercive, abusive, evil threats of eternal torture for crimes which are by definition finite. Therefore, the deal your god offers is prima facie unjust, like a judge who punishes a jaywalker with the death penalty unless some innocent person sacrifices themself. That's not justice, that's corruption and tyranny.
jester: ok, assume they had free will. They still didn't know the difference between good and evil without eating the fruit. So how can you blame for making a choice they weren't equipped to make in the first place? They didn't know which option was good and which was evil. Whose fault is that? The one you think created them without that essential knowledge in the first place. Your god. All this, you believe, because of a design flaw. Intelligent design my eye!
Adam and Eve were given a free will to choose. And because of their relationship with God, I'm sure that there was enough trust built in there. And sin did exist before that, because the Bible said that Satan himself sinned and was thrown from heaven. Because of their actions, sin was brought into this world.
As I said, God created man with free will. To choose evil or good. Why did He do that? Because His ultimate goal is to have a relationship with us. And He could have made us all robots with no free will or ability to choose, but is that love? No. He gave us free will so that we could choose to love Him. Would you want someone to love you because they had no other choice, like a robot who is programed to do it? No. Love that is given from the will of the person giving it is real love. Just as Jesus willingly, of His own free will, came down to this earth and gave Himself on the cross. Because He loved us. He did it because he wanted to.
God is Holy and those who want to stand in His presence must be too. The only way to do that is through accepting Jesus' sacrifice, because on our own we can never reach to His holiness. It's not about being good enough to be God's child, it's about being God's child so that He can make us that good.
Someday God will come and throw satan, his angels, and sin into the bottomless pit. And anyone holding onto that sin will go with it. That is their choice, not His.
anniefourjesus: then let me also issue a clarification: one guy and one girl ate an apple. that's what you believe makes him and every descendent worthy of hell. Moreover, they were totally blameless, as without having eaten of the knowledge of good and evil, how could they know what he was doing was wrong? How would they know that listening to god was right? They wouldn't know any of those things. You can't expect someone like that to behave themselves. Yet your god didn't care about them at all, it was all about eternal punishment. And then much, much later, your god is like "your crime against me can only be forgiven if an innocent person dies." That's like a threat a movie villain would make.
Annie, you didn't choose to eat that apple. You didn't even choose to be born. Your parents chose for you to be born. They are your creator. Under your story, noone is responsible for this mess you think has been created but your god alone.
This is a god worth trusting? A god who, in your words, would have thrown into hell if someone else hadn't given their life up. That's not someone who loves you, thats a monster and an abuser.
Citizen, I don't debate anyone at anytime, God's Word is clear to me and I'm sorry if it's not clear to others. God has not called me to debate His Word, but to obey His Word. One comment I can make here to clarify something, JESUS gave His life, no man took His life from Him.
Man sinned against His Creator (God is not a man, HE is Spirit) and God is Sovereign. Man decided he would be god in his own life and rebelled against God, the One who created Him. "The wages of sin is death" Jesus paid a debt that I could never pay. I have come to recognize my own sinful nature, I thank Jesus for paying with His own blood, a penalty meant for me, by my own choices. Choose life or choose death.
God set up this world and HE is the author of life. Citizen, I am not going to debate something that I believe with my whole heart. Do I fully understand everything no, but I trust God and I take what HE says on faith. I live by faith in Jesus Christ. I know that in His perfect timing, my God shall make all things clear. There is so much more that I understand today than I did yesterday. I understand that God loves me, that He restored my heart, mind, soul and spirit, I understand if I hide sin in my heart that will separate me from Him, even my prayers.
Citizen, I'm to give the reason for the hope that I have, and Jesus Christ is the reason for the hope and the joy that I now have in my life today! It was discovering that God loved me that freed me from a past of horrific proportions. You have no idea what the LORD God has freed me from. I give Him all the glory and praise for taking this thrown away child and redeeming me from the pit of hell! Citizen, I continue to pray the Lord will make Himself real to you! So, no debating God's Word but I wish you well Citizen.
It's true, anniefourjesus won't debate me ever since I asked her whether or not it was just for a god to kill an innocent (as christians claim jesus was) for the supposed crimes of others, which are based on blood guilt (which is what the doctrine of original sin actually is), and whether or not it was righteous to be happy about that. It's like a murderer being happy that someone else was convicted of their crime. We'd call that murderer unjust, but most christians seem to think its a moral thing for them to do.
"Correction" I hated this world and God, but my heart was full of pain and blindness to the truth of God and His ways. I am thankful for the many brothers and sisters who help me on my journey to wholeness and to the Lord for His love and patience as He leads me into a fuller and much more rewarding relationship with Him. religion is cold, but a personal relationship with Jesus is the best!
To The Watch: I pray for Citizen but I no longer choose to get into debates with him. He has chosen to not believe God and I am respecting that. I have given my personal testimony of what the dear Lord Jesus has done in my life. I was a battered, and abandoned child and I hate this world and God too. I was the most miserable of persons, until God Himself after much persuing of me, got my attention and showed me that I had a distorted view of Him because of the abuse and suffering in my life.
He (not any human being) lifted this child up of the gutters and cleansed me and bound up my wounds and HE (Psalm 23) restored my soul; and HE (Psalm 27) when my father and my mother rejected me, HE received me! He showed me that I was HIS precious daughter, a princess of The King and not some bit of trash as people often treated me.
It was the Lord Jesus, who led me into a personal relationship with Him and taught me the futility of "religion" He hates "organized religion too!"
Life without Jesus Christ is meaningless and I know that first hand; my life is so incredible now with the Lord God. He blessed me in ways and the best is HIS love, forgiveness and a peace that I cannot describe.
Let me tell you one more bit of news, HE is redeeming my family (there were 5 children in foster care, 45 years ago) and Praise The LORD HE is restoring what the enemy stole (Joel 2:25) from our lives.
Nothing can ever separate me from the love of God and I am personally so thankful that my JESUS is not dependent on my feelings or emotions (or any other persons either). It is a simple fact that God so loved the world that HE gave HIS One and Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in HIM shall not perish but have everlasting life!
Now that is Good News!! It grieves the Lord's heart when men reject Him and His love, but people have a choice and they will either live by it or die by their own choice.
The Second Advent is upon us, The King is coming (I pray you have accepted Him into your heart today) By His Grace, Annie MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
citizen; There is not even one ounce of prejudice in my veins. Mate is used in response to the animal kingdom (as in Darwinism) as well as in referance to a partner of the same sex but, why would you refer to you spouse, girlfriend, boyfriend, helpmate, husband, wife, etc.. as a mate? Do you think this is trying to be politicaly correct? Also, what kind of church whould you go to with the contempt, hatered, annamosity, etc... that you display toward churchs?
roger: "mate" is a nice, gender neutral term, so it works for guys and gals. You can't assume these days, theotrek could be a girl or a guy, straight or gay. You are really reaching when you start accusing me of being gay, as if that were a bad thing *rolls his eyes* As it happens, my girlfriend and I are about to celebrate our two year anniversary. Perhaps we will go to church together...where we met in the first place. She's the daughter of the choir director. Sorry, Roger, your lame prejudice is filled with epic fail.
i see now why Citizen refuses to open his mind, heart, views, etc... It's very simple, it will interfere with his and his mates (is not what they call a partner of the same sex?) lifestyle. All who believe this way have the opions as Citizen. Lets all keep praying for deliverance.
The Lord sticks closer than a brother; He never leaves us or forsakes us. Religion/church/outward form do not satisfy the soul. Only the Lord can do that.
theotrek: the loneliest time in my life happened when I still believed in god. Beliefs are no substitute and no comfort whatsoever compared to growing and living together with close friends. That is where help comes from. Trust the strength of the friends you love, and your mate if you have one, and the family that nurtured you. That strength is far more real than any supernatural idea.
This is very refreshing to me. It's wonderful to know that our increasingly humanist society hasn't been successful in drumming our basic Biblical beliefs out of our hearts, despite all efforts to the contrary. The Lord is good! :-)
Citizen--It gets pretty lonely if I am the one in control of my life and no help greater than my own strength. The world is vastly more complicated than my limitations of understanding can grasp. If I need renewal, it is because I recognize that I have not lived in a way that is truly fulfilling. Seems awfully reckless to believe that I have to create my own renewal with no help from a greater outside source than my own failed attempts at living.
"For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,knowing that Crist has been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him" Romans 6: 5-9
The Psalmist says "We are but one step away from death."
How is that a hit to my credibility? Because I won't forsake my beliefs? You twist the words around to say I don't believe in renewal. If I lose my wallet and have someone to help me find it and we find it together, I must then reloose it to find it on my own to prove the validity of me finding my wallet. This is your kind of reasoning. Mine is I lose my wallet, someone helps me find it and I'm happy I got my wallet. Citizen, I know you enjoy these little debates and it makes you feel very good intellectually but I'm not leaping in a vacuum with who I am. I reject your world view. It doesn't, didn't and never will work for me. Jesus does and always will. I bid you good evening and Merry Christmas.
that should be "a short prelude to eternity in heaven or hell"
The Watch: What, are you afraid your views will change if you go back to skepticism when your life position is much improved? Come on, if faith is really that good, you ought to have no problem goiing back to it after being a skeptic who isn't in dire straits. What if you find out that it was, in fact, all you all along, would that really be so bad? Yes, life is fleeting, but all the more valuable for it. Life would be worthless if it was just a short prelude, relatively speaking, to eternity. Life's short time makes it all the sweeter.
The Watch: I see, so really, you don't believe in renewal, you're just saying anything you think will convince me, whether you believe it or not. That's a real hit to your credibility and your integrity, friend.
Citizen,
It is written, "You shall not tempt the Lord your God."
I know it feels good when you believe you make a Christian feel silly for having their faith. Do understand, I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. You can ridicule me, laugh at me, call me names for my beliefs, and in your best Darth Vader imimitation, ask me to step away from my faith, but friend, I won't compromise. Neither should any other Christian. We've already seen what the world has to offer and realize it is fleeting. Muggeridge said: "The trouble with kingdoms of heaven on earth is they are liable to come to pass, and then the fraudulent is apparent for all to see. We need a kingdom of heaven in Heaven...if only because it can't be realized."
canesfan: you are dressing up in supernatural mumbo-jumbo what I am saying plainly: people who have a vested interest in christianity being true will interpret their lives and events as confirmation of that belief, what you call "lifting the veil." That doesn't make christianity true, that makes christians unreliable and biased.
The Watch: You say renewal is possible, but do you really believe that? I'm not sure you do. Why don't you test it out yourself. Try dropping the supernatural, drop Christianity, and find meaning and purpose within yourself, and with your loved ones. If renewal really is possible, you have nothing to fear, you can go back any time. Test and see if what I am saying is true, because it is very easy to go on saying I'm wrong, without having the courage to try and see for yourself. Go back to being the skeptic you once were for, let us say, a month. Remember, if it doesn't work, you can renew.
Citizen, you talking about my "mystical pleading" or God's? If me, I didn't mean it to be "pleading", I was just laying out the program for you and explaining why people don't accept the gospel. And since this thread is about the virgin birth why people don't believe in the miracles of Jesus.
"I understand. Your situation sounds like it was objectively more desperate than mine, but I, too, once converted to Christianity out of pain and anguish. And I've come to realize that that is the only time skeptics like us are vulnerable to baseless beliefs, its out of desperation and hope. And Christianity and other religions prey on that. Doesn't make them true. It just makes us desperate and needy. Now that, I presume, your situation is better, you could continue to have a better life without christianity. Because all that stuff you did to get yourself out trouble, that was you all along. It just shows what a person can do when they have hope, and that doesn't need to come from gods or saviors. It's just human."
You might think that to be the answer and I know it isn't. Where you see humanity as a hope, I know it was Divine. God opened many doors for me that was once close and it was not my doing. Paul said in our weakiest, his strength is made perfect. I believe that. I lived that. I at one time took alot of pride in what I could accomplish, but now, it isn't what I can accomplish that is important. I have lived my life like this for some time now and I am completely convinced of why I am now. If you slice us down to our bare essence to the very core of our physical being, you will understand at some point that there is a God and there is a direction and purpose for what he does. I understand and you have said before that you converted to christianity out of pain and anguish, but I am afraid that you did not experience God's presence or resisted it, maybe not even understood it. It happens but it can be renewed. I'm still praying for you my friend. I mean that.
canesfan: that's pretty much what I said, without all the mystical special pleading.
Citizen, take a gander at that verse, and there are others like it, they say it is impossible to understand or make sense of things like the virgin birth. You do become "invested" in it because you accept by faith what Jesus did for you and God regenerates you. Only then does God begin to lift the veil from your eyes that has blinded you to who He is. God bless.
canesfan: so in other words, christianity is ridiculous unless you are invested in it being true, at which point, confirmation bias kicks in, and you'll interpret everything that happens to make it true, and ignore anything you can't fit into your preconceived notions.
The Watch: I understand. Your situation sounds like it was objectively more desperate than mine, but I, too, once converted to Christianity out of pain and anguish. And I've come to realize that that is the only time skeptics like us are vulnerable to baseless beliefs, its out of desperation and hope. And Christianity and other religions prey on that. Doesn't make them true. It just makes us desperate and needy. Now that, I presume, your situation is better, you could continue to have a better life without christianity. Because all that stuff you did to get yourself out trouble, that was you all along. It just shows what a person can do when they have hope, and that doesn't need to come from gods or saviors. It's just human.
Greetings Citizen, been reading your posts and you are exactly where I was many years ago. Our college baseball team played a Christian college team and between games we interacted and I was the instigator of the abuse we offered in response to their sharing the gospel. Why does anyone reject or be obstinate when the gospel is shared with them? The answer is 1 Corinthians 2:14. The things of God are foolishness to those that don't believe. It is impossible to understand the truths of the bible, who Christ is, His miracles, virgin birth, etc. because they must be spiritually discerned. The only way they can be spiritually discerned is through the Holy Spirit, and one must be regenerated and born again in order to have the Holy Spirit.
Citizen,
"you, unlike every other believer in every other myth, REALLY DO BELIEVE."
Praise God you got something right, my friend. I do believe and instead of your persistance of accusation, why not understand why I do believe? Of course by misconception you have that figured out. Let me explain once again. I know you do not believe I was once very much like you. Non believing, skeptical of people who do believe. My life was headed toward miserable failure, lost in vices, neglecting myself and my family. God put a friend in my life who is one of my dearest and most beloved friends. God, through him started to chip away at me. I started looking, researching, grasping what I was being told. It took time. Through my friends effort and God working on my heart, soul and intellect, I found myself turning my life to him. It all makes clear sense to me. It has been a not so easy deal, mind you. Very emotional and I don't understand some of the workings in my life but I trust him. He changed me. He is still changing me and as much as you think I am crazy, the more sane I feel. The more you think I am bound by a myth, the more I am freed by a Loving Savior.. You can have your stories and ideas. I choose Jesus. I will defend my choice and I will die with my choice, which is fine because it puts me with my God.
roger: that would be because they are the common ideals that allow human beings to live in society together. Suppose there was a religion that told everyone who believed in it to be celibate and never tell anyone about it. That religion would die out after a single generation. Now a religion that told people to be good to each other would live, because the society where it flourished would survive. What matters are the ideals themselves, not the supernatural legends behind them, because of course those are different, different gods, and so on. They need no myths to be good ideas. Bottom line, morality is the rules that allow human beings to live together, and human needs are what determine them, not supernatural deities giving orders.
Fortunatly, this so-called myth is not just 2000 years old. Why do you think there are so many beliefs out there that have the somewhat same beliefs, ideals, etc.. is that it all comes from ONE Origin.
roger: don't you see, there is nothing special about the baseless claims of christianity that entitles them to your belief over all the other equally baseless claims out there? Why not believe in unicorns that grant you wishes? why not worship bigfoot or space aliens? Don't you see that you've completely abdicated all sense of reason or judgment, because a book and other people told you too, or because it feels good? How will you ever know the truth for yourself, when you accept blindly what other people claim is the truth because it feels good, or because you are superstitious?
The Watch: What's hilarious about your comparison is that your cross is precisely as special as those windmills, but, like Don Quixote, you've continually convince yourself that your myths REALLY ARE TRUE, because you, unlike every other believer in every other myth, REALLY DO BELIEVE. I look at your myths, I look at the myths of every other religion, and I look at modern myths that everyone can agree are myths, and I see no difference. If, in two thousand years, people believed that Star Trek was true, would that make it true? Muslims have been talking about Muhammed and Allah for almost as long, does that make Islam true? Paganism is older than both, are Zeus and Apollo real? The epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest known human legend , does its survival for much longer than Christianity make it true?
The bottom line is that your weird fetish for the two thousand year survival of Christianity is not evidence that its true, because it if were, you'd have to accept all those other myths as true as well, and you don't.
i believe you have a peice of paper but , unless your name is JESUS CHRIST with HIS seal i dought you have a peice that would convince me to give you my money. Although, if he had spoken to me to do so (as some friend had done to me giving me $1000 without knowing that i was in a bad situation did) i would do so. If you have a relationship with HIM you can in fact HEAR HIS voice, OH i guess you will now tell me i am nuts hereing voices ugh:)
Citizen,
You remind me of a modern Don Quixote de la Mancha; jousting at giants, but the giants are not windmills in your story; it is the cross. What you do not realize or care to admit is that every joust, your lance is smashed upon the face of the cross. The cross is unmovable. Many like yourself have tried, with the same results. The Romans tried to kill the cross, but the embers of that empire have long cooled and mixed into the soil, where as the cross still stands. Time and time again, Jesus, the most beloved name by some and the most feared by others has stood against persecution. Attack after attack, it remains exactly as it should....pure and unsullied. A beacon of hope and a testiment of God's forever love. His Son, the Living Savior. I wonder if your story will end as Don quixote?
roger: I have a piece of paper that says it was authored by god through me, and it says that you have to give me all your money. You do believe me, don't you? The paper clearly says it was authored by god.
thats the funny thing about fiction, it in (most) all cases is the figment of one persons imagination but, it is a fact that several different holy men of GOD over a period of 3600 years wrote the bible but it has only ONE AUTHOUR the LORD and GOD JESUS CHRIST.
The Watch: Furthermore, how do you know Picard is fiction? It hasn't even happened yet! You have no evidence to disprove it!
Face it, every apologetic dodge you have for jesus can be equally applied to Captain Picard, Superman, Doctor Who, Gandalf, and every other fictional character. So either claim that all of those person exist, and make yourself look silly, or admit that its likely that jesus as god and savior is a fictional character too.
The Watch: I'd call saving the world from The Borg a pretty big change. I'd call facing down the all -powerful Q continuum to end the destruction of the universe a pretty big change. You clearly need to watch more Star Trek: The Next Generation.
Citizen,
Unfortunately, Picard hasn't nor will he change the world. He won't give hope. He won't stand the test and hold water for 2000 years. Pichard is fiction and cannot stand up to the awsome reality of Jesus Christ.
roger: There is just little or no difference between the bible and works of fantasy and science fiction.
Citizen, i was wrong, i think there is the other catagory of those that are educated beyond their own comprehension. It seems that the only reality for you is fictional or you could deliver something other than fiction.
roger: You should read Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove. It too, lines up with history. It's got Robert E. Lee, Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg, all the historical names and places...except that its a story about how time traveling gun runners give the south AK-47s and the south wins the civil war. Moral of the story: just because a book has a few names and places right doesn't mean the rest of it is right.
The Watch: yeah, I seriously considered it. My conclusion was that it has the same objective truth as a claim that in a few centuries Captain Picard and the Enterprise will risk their lives repeatedly to save the universe from The Borg.
"You have to open your mind, abandon your faith-induced preconceptions, and honestly look for evidence. You have to accept the possibility that you might be wrong."
Who says I haven't honestly looked for answers? I am where I am based on the path I took, just as you are where you are. We both have arrived at different points in our journey and with that I beg a question of you: Have you seriously considered there is a God who loves and there is a redeemer who gave His life for you because he loves you? Loves you so much that even through all the denial he stands there still waiting on you and the reason He is standing there is because after He died, He rose again from the dead. A living God.
You heard all this before Citizen. It hasn't changed.
Ya know citizen, its funny that the dead sea scrolls line up perfectlly with the king james and it even futher amazes me at how much of history confirms what the bible says. Also, the vatician has numerous historical proof. I will be joining the watch to pray for your soul. As the rich man asked father Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his finger in water to cool his tounge for he was in torment (Luke 16:19-31). I wil be praying you dont fall into that catagory in verse 31"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
that should be "it wouldn't make me any less full of it."
So what if I had said it lovely, so what if I had offered eternal life and salvation from my arbitrary rules, it would make me any less full of it. The point here, The Watch and fieldmouse, is just because it says it in a book, and other people tell you its true, that doesn't make it true. You have to open your mind, abandon your faith-induced preconceptions, and honestly look for evidence. You have to accept the possibility that you might be wrong.
The Watch: I told you what would happen if you questioned or disbelieved my god status. Why didn't you believe me?:-)
Ahhh Citizen,
I have not seen you in awhile. I see you are in rare holiday spirit today. Making all those wicked claims of being God and worshiping you....then telling poor fieldmouse their consciousness ends with death. You haven't made it on the nice list at all, but you did point out one good thing in all this..and that is the trouble with you claiming to be a god. You see, all though you offer up a miracle or two, and then punishment if your tested or rejected, you missed the important point which sticks out like a patch of white on a sea of red. You didn't offer salvation because your incapable. You see fieldmouse, Citizen can't offer salvation because there was no sacrifice; no redemption, just empty talk, void of love; thats why you were made a dead promise of losing your conciousness....The things that were not promised, could not have been delivered by Citizen anyway, because they were already done for us a little over 2000 years ago. We celibrate that saviors' birth in a few days and with that I wish you a Merry Christmas Citizen. I'm still praying for you and remember...as always God loves you far more than you hate him.
It always amazes me on how the athiesists always flock to this site, to prove to us that God is just a figment of our imagination and doesn't exist. They like to tell us that there were ancient religions that bore the same resemblence to Jesus' birth, death and resurrection. (Glycon, Osiris, Pythagoras, and the list is endless).
What the athiesists fail to realize is, however, that Christians are not stupid. They think we follow Jesus because the Bible tells us to. They think that we follow Jesus because we're afraid of the afterlife experience, and need comfort. They think we follow Jesus because we get warm fuzzys in church. This list is also endless.
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We follow Jesus because we know Him, we know His love. His sheep hear His voice, and He hears ours. There is two-way communication going on.
Many a Christian can tell you story after story of how they have interacted with Jesus. But, just as the rich man didn't believe, so the athiesists don't either.
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Incidentally HampsteadPete, the Bible speaks of these pagan religions as well. You will find them in Acts 17. But it also says "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."
fieldmouse: I hope you make peace with death as the final end of your consciousness.
you too must be restless deep in your heart. i hope you make peace with God.
fieldmouse: I claim to be the creator. There, now Jesus isn't the only one. Also, I've done many miracles, in places, times, and ways conveniently difficult to verify. Oh, by the way, if you question me in any way, or try to test me, or don't believe my claims, you will burn forever in eternal torture after you die. Now bow down and worship me. (/snark)
HampsteadPete,
"It was while I was in the Holy Land for the purpose of making three B.B.C. television programmes on the New Testament that a curious, almost magical, certainty seized me about Jesus' birth, ministry and Crucifixion . . . I became aware that there really had been a man, Jesus, who was also God - I was conscious of his presence. He really had spoken those sublime words - I heard them. He really had died on a cross and risen from the dead. Otherwise, how was it possible for me to meet him, as I did? . . . The words Jesus spoke are living words, as relevant today as when they were first spoken; the light he shone continues to shine as brightly as ever. Thus he is alive, as for instance Socrates - who also chose to lay down his life for truth's sake - isn't . . . The Cross is where history and life, legend and reality, time and eternity, intersect. There, Jesus is nailed for ever to show us how God could become a man and a man become God.......Malcolm Muggeridge
{Jesus Rediscovered, Bungay, Suffolk, UK: Fontana Books, 1969, 8 [Foreword] }"
Merry Christmas
glad you are here Pete,but i am not sure where all the glaring contradictions are? NO OTHER HAS CLAMIED TO BE CREATOR,that is where Jesus Christ is totally in contrast to all other "gods". he alone is the creator. i can't see why you would want to be even commenting on Christian post (i do not mind at all) but it does seem rather peculiar you picking this site unless of course somewhere deep in your heart you have been not at peace living with your unbelief.
What does the article mean when it says, "Jesus Christ being born to the virgin Mary literally" or the "virgin birth literally"? What does literally mean?
good,i am glad to hear people are not easily deceived. is it really far fetched when you think of it? God made the world and everything in it,why would a virgin birth be hard for him? stop and look at the majesty of nature,the beauty of creation and see that the Lord can do exceedingly above anything we could ask or even imagine and wuite frankly i praise God he did!
Just goes to show, if you repeat something long enough, no matter how ridiculous, after a while most people will accept it without thinking. Take this myth, for instance, based upon a mistranslation of Hebrew texts translated into Greek, and borrowed from already existing savior-gods, the virgin birth has been largely accepted for most of the last 2,000 years. Accepted in spite of the glaring contridictions between the various accounts.
Happy solstice!
The BIBLE does say that "in the end times knowledge of the world will increase but, knowledge of the word will decrease". Secondly, either ALL the BIBLE is true or none of it according to II Peter 1:20-21. II Tim. 2:15-17 when we have done this, then lets see what there is to say.