California legislation that will ban grade school textbooks and teachers from including any instruction that "reflects or promotes bias against" homosexuality, transgenders, bisexuals or those with perceived gender issues will take effect next month and opponents are circulating referendum petitions to place the measure before voters.
SB-777 was introduced to the House on May 24 was signed into law by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on Oct. 14. The bill will affect textbooks and instructional materials for students in kindergarten and grades 1-12 and will change the typical concept of family, conservative groups argue.
“This reverse discrimination is an outright attack on the religious and moral beliefs of California citizens,” says Karen England, executive director of the pro-family group Capitol Resource Institute (CRI).
According to CRI’s new affiliated organization, Capitol Resource Family Impact (CRFI), the traditional family that only features a mom and dad would be “promoting a discriminatory bias” against homosexual couples under SB-777. It would promote “heterosexism” to only show male and female couples without equal time for homosexual, transsexual and transgender “families,” CRFI adds
The conservative group argues, however, that the bill may open up doors to “shocking” policies such as those that have already been implemented in Los Angeles Unified School District regarding transgender students. According to the school district's web site, if a male perceives himself as a female, he must be granted access to female locker rooms and restrooms. Furthermore, if the student wishes to keep his sexual status from his parents, the teachers and administration must refer to the masculine pronoun (him/he) when talking to the parents and use the feminine pronoun (she/her) at school.
“This shocking policy treats parents as the enemy of the transgender student,” CRFI states. “Teachers are expected to abet the student in keeping vital information from parents.”
With SB-777 slated to take affect in January 2008, opponents of the bill are circulating referendum petitions to be signed and requesting the participation of churches. The “Save Our Kids” campaign, which is a project of CRFI, is collecting roughly half a million valid signatures of voters to qualify the referendum for the ballot in June 2008.
RSS
Yes, marriage was designed for one man and one woman. Anything else, is outside of God's will.
i have difficulty finding unholiness of homosexuality.........lev being eliiminated because of being under a different covenant, and not all prohibitions of themselves were sins, and 1cor and 1tim were erroneously interpretated from"abusers of themselves with mankind to homosexuality, no one having a clear understanding of malakoi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malakoi and arsenokoital, and no one being able to show that romans 1 is not about sins in the commission of same sex acts and no one being able to explain how the words of romans 1 say homosexuality is a sin, and matt 19:11 addresses the word about a man being one flesh with a woman.
with this degree of uncertainy over scripture it allows for witness of the spirit as to whether it is of god or not.
homosexuals bond out mutual love, affection, devotion,and trust.... the same as heterosexuals, for a committed shared life together.
it is the highest form of sexual intimacy when it is an affirmation of a relationship of this spirit under the vows of marriage of couples who say christ is lord.
And I can't understand why you use scripture that condems sin, to justify your/their sin.
Because homosexuality is not holy. And I do love my neighbor as myself. I expect no more of my neighbors than I expect of myself.
do you not read one thru five.................................when (2) says" now we know that god's judgement is based on truth".......................................is your response that doesnt apply to me, i dont do the very same things.
i dont understand why you are using this scripture which condemns judgement, to justify your own.
james 2: 8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[a] you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[b] also said, "Do not murder."[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
again..................... you have not explained how the spirit of the ssence of homsexuality comes against loving your neighbor as yourself.
feet,
Exactly!
"8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism."
And then you repeat what I just posted.
So, those who practice sin (such as homosexuals) will recieve their reward.
you cannot read romans1 without including romans 2. they are so intimately linked that i question if the writer's intent was ever to have them seperated into 2 chapters.
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Romans 2
verses 12 and 13 are interesting..."12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified....)
And by your own words, cheating is ok.
by your own words , you show you cannot be led by spirit and at the same time be led bythe law.
Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
feet,
Then please read the scriptures under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. God's love isn't all "mushy mushy, you can do what you want and it's okay, my grace covers it all, you don't have to change". God is a just God. And God is holy. And marriage between a man and woman is holy. Anything outside of that is unholy.
what does that mean? i have already said.... that by faith, i believe the spirit of christ lives in me.
feet,
I've asked 3 times. Why do you refuse to answer my simple question?
feet -
I have explained it to you, a number of times, particularly on another post. The only thing we are trying to "convince" you of is the truth of the bible. As long as you believe that the bible can be fit into cultures' expanding views of what is acceptable or not then you will not believe in any absolute truth in God's Word.
The Spirit convicts of truth to those who belong to God, through Jesus Christ, and are seeking His will diligently. Any other "spirit" is your own willfullness yammering at you due to satan's lies blinding you.
If you are seeking the truth in God's Word, you will read His Word in context, not in pieces to justify what you want to see.
feet,
But you didn't answer my question. Are you a Christian?
my apologies my reediting could be better
no truth will be explained without the presence of the holy spirit. i never asked you to convince me. i merely asked you to explain your own.understanding................. which you have either refused or been unable.
isaiah 1: 17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed. [a]
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.
18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
CMG
no truth will be explained without the presence of the holy spirit. i never asked you to convince me. i merely asked you to explain your own.................. which you have either refused or been unable.
isaiah 1: 17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed. [a]
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.
18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
isaiah1:
This is a bad piece of law for many reasons. It would prohibit any mention of the evils of slavery (instruction which reflects adversely on the white race); war in the former Yugoslavia (instruction reflects adversely on Orthodox Christians, Muslims and/or Catholics) or any other blemish on the history of man.
If we can't discuss our mistakes we'd better get in line to repeat them.
to Feet:
"if it, to you this proves nothing .....................................then it proves nothing. if you want to believe that anything homosexual is evil for the sake of the law. then fine. that's what you believe. the point is, nothing in scripture says that. and when you are asked to explain how scripture does, you refuse to answer the quesrtions."
Have you actually read the bible or have you just skimmed it for what is relavant to your argument, how can you believe one part but not another. It makes no sense to me, either you take all of God's word or you take non of God's word. Cherry Picken isn't truthful either to yourself or to others.
feet has said -
[["scripture that affirms what society becomes able to embrace.
that's why society has always, and will always lead the church.
the nature and structure of the church is that is unable to be the tester. it doesnthave societies diverse levels. society......... the culture is the church ................. the church is the culture.
its interesting that scripture is written so nonspecifically. and it is done so because its purpose is to point to the spirit. and as i said before, the spirit can be expressed thru an infinte number of earthly forms"]]
Prophet, feet is not a Christian, he's a new ager. Now at least I understand all his esoteric allusions to scripture. We will never convince him of the truth of the Bible as God's Word, because he believes that our heightened awareness gives "new and improved meaning" to the word of God as we become more enlightened.
Feet, you always talk of Christ as if he was separate from God.
The Trinity is God Jesus and Spirit, Father,Son, Holy Spirit Jesus said if you see me you the Father. You must understand they are one. Anyone saying Jesus never said what God said is mistaken they are one.
feet,
But you didn't answer my question. Are you a Christian?
I(READ THE PREVIOUS MESSAGE FIRST)
T WENT FROM VIOLATING ONESELF THRU DEFILING RELATIONS WITH OTHERS TO PEOPLE HAVING A SAME SEX ORIENTATION AND ALL WHO PRACTICE ANAL SEX
how do the translators of the ninetenth century give themselves the license to make a traansposition to that specificity.
they gave themselves license because of the prohibition of lev. which was under another covenant( not all the prohibitions of lev were of themselves sins), romans 1 speaks of sins during the commission of same sex relations, there was no clear understanding of the greek words malakoi and arsenokoital, used by paul in the epistles.
the translation was done by a religious elite, influenced by the homophobia of the times, the stigma of same sex acts being illegal and culturally, homosexuality was being kept in the closet. because of these influences it went unchallenged and untested for 150 years.
it wasnt until the renaissance of human rights and individualism, and the sexual revolution of the 60's, the religious reformation of the 70's that brought the awareness of the spirit, indiviual bible study and understanding, and the acceptance of individual opinion of the 90's to reverse illegality, and for social acceptance allow for the transposition to be finally tested.
this testing is effecting a new meaning to the gospel. it brings a new awareness of paul's words of "no longer under the law" , our relationship under the old covenant. and reawakens our understanding of "being under grace" "being led by" and "serving of the spirit" our relationship in christ of the new covenant.
we were created thru the spirit of christ. this provides for what romans says. that we have the capacity to see god's goodness thru what was created. that is how humans progress in their understanding of what is of christ.
haas spoke out against paying money for penance. he was burned at the stake, one hundred years later luther spoke out about the same thing, and was declared a national hero.
it had taken one hundred years of verbal discussion and testing, ( a theocratical age), the creation of national boundaries, the diminished power of the pope, along with influence of the holy spirit. the scriptural words that had been there all along. but there essence had to be embraced into daily expression of living.( luther's gesture caused 120,000 anabaptists to rebel against all state authority.) luther's gesture was successful because it had been tested and was able to be received on many levels.
that has always been the way its been. humans dont take direct instruction from scripture. instead, its scripture that affirms what society becomes able to embrace.
that's why society has always, and will always lead the church.
the nature and structure of the church is that is unable to be the tester. it doesnthave societies diverse levels. society......... the culture is the church ................. the church is the culture.
its interesting that scripture is written so nonspecifically. and it is done so because its purpose is to point to the spirit. and as i said before, the spirit can be expressed thru an infinte number of earthly forms.
that's what is so flagrantly obvious about the translation of 1cor6:9.
in the 19th century.....it was translated (king james version) 9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, NOR ABUSERS OF THEMSELVES WITH MANKIND..............and retranslated to...................
the (new king james version)9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor HOMOSEXUALS,[a] nor SODOMITES,
(continued)
feet,
But you didn't answer my question. Are you a Christian?
that's the answer to anyone being of christ.
But you didn't answer my question. Are you a Christian?
That is a very good chapter. But the Spirit bears witness to me that homosexuality is not pleasing to God. But I see your point. You believe that homosexuals can walk in the Spirit, right?
romans 8:9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
feet,
Are you, or are you not a Christian?
feet
I have answered questions about scriptures that are the foundation of my belief.
iREEDIT
I see no sin, in fellowship, in prayer,and in scripture. ..................................ergo....... that is why i ask the questions, to make an attempt to see god in what you see. my position has been that i see god and christ in homosexuality in the same way that i see THEM in heterosexuality.
i see no sin, in fellowship, in prayer,and in scripture. ..................................ergo....... that is why i ask the questions, to make an attempt to see god in what you see. my position has been that i see god and christ in homosexuality in the same way that i see it in heterosexuality.
Feet you just can't understand why we need saving can you?
If you love them you will try to not let them succome to the flesh and the sinful world. Like Jesus said to the woman, You are forgiven. NOW GO AND SIN NO MORE. Jesus did not say, sin all you want now go and party. It is Gods will not their will that should be done.
1john3: 21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
feet, in answer to your question; I try to "cling" to Gods word as written in the Bible. What do you cling to?
When will you address scripture and questions?
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
if you want to cling to the understanding that it is a sin, that is your business.
my point is that in witnessing the lives of homosexuality there is no evidence to show that they given over to any other spirit in their lives any different from those who heterosexuals. that both bond in the same spirit. compared to each other both embrace the fruit of the spirit equally.
the point being that if they both live of the same spirit of their lives equally, how can the essence of one oreintation be less than another.
if it, to you this proves nothing .....................................then it proves nothing. if you want to believe that anything homosexual is evil for the sake of the law. then fine. that's what you believe. the point is, nothing in scripture says that. and when you are asked to explain how scripture does, you refuse to answer the quesrtions.
Feet,
You keep asking the same question,"what is the lie, what is the truth in Romans?"
Homosexuals who want to believe this sin, homosexual sex is not sin, and want to force others to believe the same, is the "lie". The "truth" is heterosexual relations when in the sanctity of marriage, is the "truth" that is what is exchanged for the "lie" statement that is Romans, is my understanding. God gave man seed to plant to create new life (and a place in woman to plant it). man+man=0 woman+woman=0 man+woman=3 in the image of the Trinity that is sacred!.
God gives us His laws and the free will to obey or disobey, and consequences if we disobey. It is not always easy for any of us we are all sinners but this particular sin (and abortion) are the only one to be forced by law on everyone. Why do homosexuals want to be so mean spirited?? They have always had the right to privacy why not use it, and have the experience private between themselves and God?
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Seems pretty clear...
This is mentioned many times in the Bible, in different ways and different books, which gives us clue, its important.
prophet
why are you unable to answer questions about scriptures that are the foundation of your belief? is it because you do not understand them? then how can yousay they are about homosexuality being a sin?
feet,
You, yourself, have not proven your point either. You have presented nothing that confirms that homosexuality is acceptable to God.
"For this cause will a man leave his mother and father and will cleave to his wife, and they shall be one."
Now, show me a scripture that supports homosexual unions.
"15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." 1st Peter 1:15-16
feet,
So you don't believe in changing? You don't believe that God asks us to live a life of holiness?
"1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Romans 12:1-2
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." Ephesians 1:3-4
"For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;" Titus 1:7-8
God's word says it's a sin, so it's a sin. Romans 1.
THAT'S WHAT IVE BEEN WANTING YOU TO EXPLAIN.(ROMANS1:24-27) WHAT LIE WAS EXCHANGED FOR WHAT TRUTH AND HOW WAS WHAT CREATED ENTITY THAT WAS WORSHIPPED AND SERVED SO THAT CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS WERE GIVEN OVER TO HOMOSEXUALITY.
HOMOSEXUALS AS WELL AS HETEROSEXUALS WERE CREATED THRU THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST AND GODS LAWS WERE WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS AND PUT IN BOTH THEIR MINDS. SO BOTH ARE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE GOD'S GOODNESS THRU WHAT WAS CREATED.
IF YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS CORRECT EVERY PRACTICING HOMOSEXUAL WOULD HAVE TO BE GIVEN OVER TO THE SPIRIT OF DECEIT, DENIAL, AND DELUSION FOR THEM TO LIVE A LIFE OF HOMOSEXUALITY. IS THAT YOUR WITNESS.
ROMANS 26-27 IS ABOUT INDIVIDUALS BEING GIVEN OVER TO SHAMEBASED LUST (DELUSION, DENIAL AND DECEIT). SHAME BASED LUST IS NOT ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS BUT RELATIONS. WHERE THERE IS SHAMEBASED LUST, THERE CAN BE NO RELATIONSHIPS BECAUSE IN THESE RELATIONS, THE FOCUS AND COMMITMENT IS ON SATIATING THE LUST, LUST ABOUT OBSESSION OF SEXUAL PLEASURE AND SEXUAL OBSESSION.
HOW DOES ROMANS 1: 24-27 SAY HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN?
You said "you will recognize them by their fruit...................fruit, being fruit of the spirit." And one of the fruits of the Spirit it self-control. To not be able to control their unnatural, unGodly desires is going against the Spirit. As much as you want, you can't explain sin away. As I've said before, it's not a judgemental thing. God is holy, and those who wish to stand in His presence must be holy. And God wants us to be with Him. So, it's nothing more than God saying "please don't do that, because I want to be with you." Does that sound harsh? Does that sound judgemental?
MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT WE CAN "DO" NOTHING TO MAKE OURSELVES HOLY. PAUL SAYS LIVE HOLY LIVES...............MEANING, MAKE CHOICES THAT FEED THE SPIRIT THAT LIVES IN US RATHER THAN THE SIN NATURE.
THAT WHICH MAKES US HOLY IS THE SPIRIT THAT LIVES IN US............CHRIST!
EPHESIANS 2:8- WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THRU FAITH, THIS IS NOT OF OURSELVES, IT IS A GIFT OF GOD, IT IS NOT BY WORKS(ANYTHING WE CAN CREDIT OURSELVES FOR), LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST.
HOMOSEXUALITY IS ABOUT BONDING OUT OF MUTUAL RESPECT, LOVE TRUST , AND DEVOTION FOR COMMITMENT.........HOW IS THIS NOT ABOUT SELFCONTROL? HETEROSEXUALS BOND OUT THE SAME SPIRIT, WHOM YOU CREDIT IN DOING SO, HAVE SELF CONTROL.
LUST OR LOVE..............AFFIRMATION OR SELF LOATHING....... WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH HOMOSEXUALITY OR HETEROSEXUALITY?
BOTH OF YOU KEEP MAKING ACCUSATIONS, BUT YOU ARE NOT EXPLAINING ANYTHING.
feet -
God's word says it's a sin, so it's a sin. Romans 1.
feet,
You said "you will recognize them by their fruit...................fruit, being fruit of the spirit." And one of the fruits of the Spirit it self-control. To not be able to control their unnatural, unGodly desires is going against the Spirit. As much as you want, you can't explain sin away. As I've said before, it's not a judgemental thing. God is holy, and those who wish to stand in His presence must be holy. And God wants us to be with Him. So, it's nothing more than God saying "please don't do that, because I want to be with you." Does that sound harsh? Does that sound judgemental?
i
about homosexuality being a sin. in the 2000 years of man's attempt to stand on the belief it is a sin, i have seen nothing accomplished, but bigotry, phobia, murder, incarceration,indifference to human suffering,and obsession with self righteousness.
you would think that given the good tree bearing good fruit parable, the fruit that has been harvested from this belief would be sufficient to indicate that it is a bad tree, and that it will never bear good fruit.
yet the rallying cry for those who are determined to continue to stand on this belief is.................. we just haven't administered the law correctly!
Regarding SB777~
Shall the throne of iniquity
which devises evil by law,
have fellowship with You? Psalm 94:20
romans 12:2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Feet, you took this scripture verse out of context, .
"yet when this understanding is tested(1thess 5:21 test everything, keep the good) it is not consistent with the teachings of romans and galatians, ephesians, and 1john",
it does not conflict with anything else. What is it you think that verse 21 is saying?
Below is not just 21 but 19,20,21, and 22, it gives you a more full meaning.
"19Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil."
Jude:17-19 But remember, dear friends, that the apostles of our Master, Jesus Christ, told us this would happen: "In the last days there will be people who don't take these things seriously anymore. They'll treat them like a joke, and make a religion of their own whims and lusts." These are the ones who split churches, thinking only of themselves. There's nothing to them, no sign of the Spirit!
many of you have translations that say very specifically the homosexuality is a sin, specifically 1cor6:9.
yet when this understanding is tested(1thess 5:21 test everything, keep the good) it is not consistent with the teachings of romans and galatians, ephesians, and 1john
to condemn relationships, relationships that have the love of god, relationships whose bonding spirit says that christ is lord, relationships by those who share your same inheritance, out of differences of gender and of ways of expressing sexual intimacy, comes against all the teachings about love and fellowship that christ calls us to in the new covenant that is of him.
god's word is:
you will recognize them by their fruit...................fruit, being fruit of the spirit.
in the new covenant of christ all things have been given to and put under christ...........what ever is done is now done thru christ.
the true worshippers will worship in spirit and truth....................truth of the spirit
we are now led and serve of the spirit..........................what ever is against christ ..........is against the spirit.
1john3: 21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
if anything that comes against the law, comes against the summation of the law, loving your neighbor as yourself.......................anything.failing that , of the love, that is god, is of god.
anything done without acknowledgement of the spirit, attempts to resurrect our relationship to the law under the old covenant, and ignores paul's romans' new covenat teaching of our spirit relationship with the indwelling christ and ijohn's teaching of the life we have to each other in christ.
kc
please explain what lie was exchanged for what truth and how was what entity of creation worshipped and served so that certain individuals were given over to homosexuality?
Dear feetxxxl, Romans 1:22-32,
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.
Seems pretty clear.....
Prophet -
I know, you are right of course. But it just continually amazes me that we so often go to God's word trying to justify what we want to do, instead of going to His word to find out what He would have us to do. What stubborn, rebellious children we are!
GMG.
Feets argument over that scripture is that it "doesn't say that marriage CANT be between two men, or two women". Basically, putting words into God's mouth, not realizing that since marriage is such a big issue to God, I'm sure that in His infinite wisdom would have mentioned that homosexual marriages/relationships were quite alright...if indeed they were. Which they are not.
They have been told. They just choose not to listen. But there are those who have listened and have had their lives changed forever.
feet - If you read Matt 19 from verse one, the subject was marriage & divorce. vs.4 "....Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." vs 7-9 talk about divorce, then vs.10 "His dicsiples said to Him, "If such is the case of the man with his wife referring to divorce), it is better not to marry. But He said to them "all cannot accept this daying, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs....."
The whole context of these verses is marriage, a man and woman becoming one flesh, in God's divine plan. Jesus is saying that the marriage covenant between man and woman is just that, a COVENANT, not to be broken except for adultry, and when the apostles said hey, this is too hard, why should we even marry then, and Jesus was saying that the marriage covenant was God's plan for the union, "two become one flesh", and unless there is a reason, physically or by choice, to remain celibate, then you marry.
Paul said in another passage, it is better to marry than to burn -- referring to the physical nature.
These passages speak of marriage, Jesus specifically said between man and woman. There is no way to misread this. If you really want to know what God has in mind feet, then you will read His word with your heart focused on His will. But if you want to twist His word, there is no one to stop you, it is your choice.
"Of course, that's nonsense. Being a certain way from birth doesn't mean it's right. If it doesn't line up with the Word of God (which homosexuality doesn't), then it is wrong. But what I see the problem with the "homosexual christian" is that they don't believe in a God who can change, heal, and deliver them. "
that is not true. they do believe in a healing christ. its just that they like you have receive no word that they should seek healing.
your concern is not thru the spirit of receiving the word , but its thru your belief system that compels you to put burdens on your brothers in christ, who share your same inheritance. why is it that in burdenig them you dont at least fellowship with them first.? wouldn't that be the responsible thing to do?
feet said..."instead christ was speaking to those whose nature from birth"
He gets a spiritual calling (which is what being a eunuch was) mixed up with physical nature. feet appears to be a carnally minded person, and the thngs of the Spirit are foreign to him. I was a prophet from my mother's womb. Was I born a prophet? Depends on how you look at it. God's plan was for me to be a prophet. But it was still a road I had to choose. And I did not realize my calling until the Spirit revealed it to me when I was mature, and it was confirmed through other prophets. Just as the eunuchs were/are.
And just because someone is a particular way from birth doesn't make it right. If that were so, then serial rapists and murderers, drug users, and alcoholics could use the same excuse. My wife was chronic depresive and suicidal from her mother's womb. She remembered being depressed her whole life. So that must mean that it's ok.
Of course, that's nonsense. Being a certain way from birth doesn't mean it's right. If it doesn't line up with the Word of God (which homosexuality doesn't), then it is wrong. But what I see the problem with the "homosexual christian" is that they don't believe in a God who can change, heal, and deliver them. They believe in a god (yes, un-capitalized since it's not the true God) that is impotent. So, since they have no hope for deliverence, they choose to alter their interpretation of the scripture to suit their situation.
God loves them and wants to change them and recreate them. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." Are they really in Christ? Then why haven't the old things passed away?
By the way, when my wife came to know Christ as her Lord and Savior, she was delivered from her depression and suicide. Maybe that's the key. She made Him Saviour AND LORD of her life. Too many Christians just make Him the Saviour, but not the Lord of their life.
God made them male and female. Man’s helpmate was not made from the same direct substance as he was. That which was taken from man (woman) is the only one who can properly return to man and become one flesh with him (husband & wife). The wife assumes the role of protecting from within (rib), while the man protects from without.
Two males are contrary to becoming one flesh according to God’s plan. Neither one was taken from the other. Neither one has the true ability to function as a rib (spiritually speaking). Therefore, becoming the one flesh that God intended is impossible for two males. Such a relationship is earthly, sensual, and devilish.
11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
all scripture has more than one understanding. the differing understandings do not conflict with each other.
it is your choice, if you chose to cling to your single understanding.
according to the scripture, the word about female male bonding is only given to those who can accept it. the one who can accept he should accept it.
jesus says there are three people who it was not given
those whose nature from birth prevents them from bonding with the opposite sex.those effected by society in such away to prevent the same bonding, and those given an anointing to remain celebate. i repeat, yes the term eunuch was used, and yes males were either born were without testicles or were castrated for service. but christ was not just talking about the capacity to have sex he was also referring to the capacity to bond to be of one flesh.
the emphasis from the anti-gay has been intercourse, but scripture's emphasis has always been about more. its emphasis has been about bonding.......the essence of being one flesh. it involves so much more than just intercourse . instead sex is an expression of the devotion, respect, trust, attraction, and yes a sexual attraction ,a hormonal attraction but also an opposites of personality attraction......a life attraction, but also..a soul connection attraction so that even if sexual intercourse is gone(sexual intimacy being expressed so many other ways, than just thru intercourse), the essence of what sexual intimacy expresses still remains . the r the one flesh relationship.
castration did more than prevent intercourse it removed the hormonal connection, a behavioral connection.
when i sit in mcc church(100%) gay congregation and watch the pairing of couples during worship. i see an intimate connection, a life sharing connection, that has much more depth than just intercourse. the passion expressed in the intimacy of sexual intercourse is an expression of a life connection. when i fellowship with the men i experience nothing that says these men are capable of singular, let alone multiple ways to being attracted and connected to a woman. but the attraction that does exist, between themselves and their same sex pardners is real, life giving and is capable of the one flesh spirit nature called to by christ.
i see the same in the women
(continued)
why would christ say to one who has no physical way of making love and has no hormonal connection, "its not given for you to be one flesh to a woman." that would be like saying to a paralyzed man with no legs it is not given to you to be a runner. does the obvious need to be spoken? to what spiritual benefit?
instead christ was speaking to those whose nature from birth, even though they may have had the right physical equipment did not have the emotional, hormonal , psychological equipment to be given the word to be one flesh with a woman.
i have known heterosexual couples who have forgone intercourse because of a sexual disability of one pardner, but still stayed together. other hetercouples have refrained from sex simply out of agreement. the same is true about some homosexual couples.
things equal to the same thing are equal to each other.
if the one flesh spirit of bonding is the same for homosexuals as it is for heterosexuals, then in essence they are equal to each other.
jester - yeah, that's a possibility. Or anything that would interfere with testosterone production. Circulation problems could cause it, trauma during birth, things of that nature. There are some people that just have no drive in that area also, perhaps due to adrenal gland or other glandular problems.
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb:
So they were born with no testes?
feet - here is the dictionary definition of eunuch
1 : a castrated man placed in charge of a harem or employed as a chamberlain in a palace
2 : a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals
3 : one that lacks virility or power <political eunuchs>
Those who "choose" to be eunuchs do so for the sake of spending all their time and energies in furthering the Lord's work, so as not to be distracted. This is what Paul was referring to.
You said "because homosexual bonding and heteriosexual bonding are of the same spirit, mainly motivated out of mutual, respect, love, devotion,attraction,and trust, they are both of christ."
This is in direct contradiction of God's word. Again, you could use the same argument for fornication, etc. The Bible refers to relationships that are blessed of God as "woman and man". It doesn't include any other combination, no matter how much you twist passages.
You are using the same arguments over and over, just as you did on other posts. You are using the arguments of homosexuals who wish to find justification for their relationships. I will suggest to you once again that you go to joedallas.com, and get some information from a man that used these same arguments to justify his homosexual relationships, and finally started a true biblical search to find out God's true word on this subject, and is now an ex-homosexual and is being used of God in this ministry.
feet - you said
"however adultery and fornication are about lust and sexual obsession................... jesus's teaching about adultery.(matt5:28). adultery violates marital vows. fornication violates ones own body. the commitment is to sexual obsession, there is no relational committment, for the purpose of bonding"
Many people involved in adultry and fornication would argue that point, saying that they are in a committed relationship and then give you various reasons for their behavior. Most obvious one is the couple who is "going to get married", living together, "waiting for the right time", "just trying to see if we are compatible", etc. etc. And are you saying that all homosexual relationships are committed?
The excuses are just those - excuses. You can't pick and choose from the Bible. What God states is sin, is sin. You may not like it, but it's God's word just the same, and God doesn't change His mind.
chris
"Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way;
jesus is saying that you can be born of such a nature, that you are not given the word of a man leaving his parents and bonding with a woman. since he also brings up the issue of abstinence , then it leaves open a different bonding that is also of christ.
because homosexual bonding and heteriosexual bonding are of the same spirit, mainly motivated out of mutual, respect, love, devotion,attraction,and trust, they are both of christ.
GMG
however adultery and fornication are about lust and sexual obsession................... jesus's teaching about adultery.(matt5:28). adultery violates marital vows. fornication violates ones own body. the commitment is to sexual obsession, there is no relational committment, for the purpose of bonding.
feet,
You quoted Mattew 19:11. Why? It has nothing to do with homosexuality? Try another verse. God loves the sinner, but He doesn't love the sin, are you now admitting that homosexuality is in fact a sin? Because if it is then they need to repent of that. Please think about this, you are not helping them by accepting their behavior, as CMG pointed out below, accepting an adulterer's behavior is wrong.
feet -
you said "paul says that the summation of the law is loving your neighbor as yourself and that the fulfillment of the law is love."
Would you say that by this we should also condone adultry or fornication? What would be the difference?
What's not to understand? You use the "love your neighbor" commandment as a basis for homosexuality. If "love your neighbor" means homosexual love is okay, then why doesn't "love your neighbor" make adultry and fornication okay also?
cmg i dont understand the point you are making? scripture says it. romans 13
jesus4me
jesus dealt with that matt 19:11.
could you please annotate the section..... let's remember god loves the sinner..................... or are you offering an opinion?
feetxxxl,
I noticed you said Leviticus was written 300 years before Christ, and then made some reference to Romans that was completely distorting the purpose of Romans. The Old testament was at the very latest, by the most liberal of all scholars written 500 years before Christ. (This of course has been proven wrong, but the most liberal and atheist scholars still sometimes try to say it). Also, Christ said that there were two laws, one is loving God with all your heart, body and soul, and the other loving your neighbor as yourself. You cannot love God with all your heart, body and soul by doing something that is an abonimation to God, just like you cannot love your neighbor as yourself while burning his house down.
For that matter I do not think that loving your neighbor as yourself includes homosexual love. True love for others is found within God's will, not within one's own will. God clearly loves all people, but He does not accept or allow them to continue in their wrong ways if they choose to follow Him.
Also, trust me, they had words for homosexual 2000 years ago.
feet -
you said "paul says that the summation of the law is loving your neighbor as yourself and that the fulfillment of the law is love."
Would you say that by this we should also condone adultry or fornication? What would be the difference?
feetxxxx wrote:
"i apologize for my ignorance. i studied 18 translations of 1cor6 . 8 made unqualified referral to homosexuality in general, 1 refferred to homosexuqality with qualifications, three referred to sodomities, 4 referred to sins commited in same sex relations, and only three made no reference to homosexuality......"
Feet, did you ever look into the greek, the latin vulgate, and hebrew, or did you just go to like Message Remix, amplified message paraphrase, etc? Please elaborate, because the Bible goes thru great lengths starting in the Old Testament to show God created woman for man and for sexual union to be shared between one man and one woman in holy matrimony. God condems any sexual unions outside of His preordained boundaries for the act. This includes homosexuality, pornograhy, bisexuality, fornication, adultery, bestiality, pedophilia, incest, etc.
Let's remember that God loves the sinner, but He hates the sin. None of those sins is unforgivable, but people eed to make a choice to die to themselves when they decide to follow Christ. One can't openly be living in any sexual sin and claim to be born again without remorse and repentance. If one is born again and falls into any sexual sin, then there needs to be true repentance. Without repentance and a sincere desire for the Lord of Lords to change our desires, our hearts, our wills, and our minds to His heart, His Will, and His desires, then one would have to question if someone trully is saved, or just living in flat open rebellion against the One who bore their sins on the Cross. See, for someone to profess to be living in open homosexuality and to claim to be born again, while not choosing to repent is an oxymoron. The Holy Spirit within one who used to be a practicing homosexual and is now trully born again will convict them of their sin and they will turn their back on that lifestyle. This will mean that that person will have to refuse to go to places they used to go, and stop hanging out with those who would continue to endorse this sinful lifestyle so they won't be enticed or tempted to fall back into the sin again, etc. It's all part of the healing process. The same goes for men who are addicted to pornography. They need to repent as well, because eventually that sin will lead them to commit even graver sins of lust, etc. Jesus Christ is faithful and just to forgive us our sins if we confess them to Him. He is faithful and He won't stop working in our lives, but we need to be willing to allow Him to do that, and sometimes, that means a radical change; almost like radical cancer surgery. If you don't remove the tumor, it will eventually take you out. This is what sin does in our lives. See the point Feet?
feet uses God's grace as an excuse to sin. He figures God will look away while we continue in our sin.
Romans 6:14-18: "
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
And???
a number of these topics have already been discussed, look at previous comments.
To feetxxxl: When we walk in the Light (and Jesus is that Light) we are not going to be walking after the flesh, the HOLY SPIRIT puts to death in us the desires and passions of the flesh. Christ is living in believers, as is the Holy Spirit, so we are NOT going to be seeking to satisfy ourselves! That is what sexual immorality is all about - seeking to gratify the desires and passions of the flesh!!!! The flesh is corrupted, "outwardly we are decaying as inwardly we are growing, maturing up into Christ. This flesh is going to be destroyed, we're going to have new Eternal Spirit bodies.
We are not to be seeking earthly temporal pleasures or treasures. We deny ourselves, take up our crosses and follow Jesus!
I'm not going to argue Scripture with you as we have a difference of what God is saying. God in no way excuses Sin, Jesus died for that!
The Holy Spirit is our Comforter, our Teacher, HE leads us into all truth, and it is by HIS power that we can even walk in this world! The same power that resurrected Jesus from the dead is within every believer, many do NOT even know The Holy Spirit is God, and is a Person and lives to intercede for us! We are the children of GOD, unless you walk with satan and then you are of your father the devil.
There are only two kinds of people. the children of God and the children of satan, that is God's Word. Many do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, it's not enough to know about Him, even the demons know about Him, but they do not worship Him.
This is my last blog on this subject as HIS Word speaks for itself and just becareful that you don't condemn yourself by what you approve (also scripture) In Jesus Name, Amen
annie four jesus
the only way that you condemn homosexuality is thru the law, not thru your understanding of its essence. and the only way you are able to condemn it thru the law is to tranpose an 19th century word into a 2000 year old text.
that gives the appearance of being very homophobic, robotic, and devoid of any love.
annieforjesus
paul says that the summation of the law is loving your neighbor as yourself and that the fulfillment of the law is love.
what is the spirit of the essence of homosexuality that it would come against loving ones neighbor as themselves? how does it come against the love of christ?
in other what is going on in homosexuals, what is of their spirit that would come against the spirit of christ.
can you answer that question without quoting the law, which paul say we are also no longer under.
paul says that things of the sin nature are obvious, you dont need the law to determine what is against the spirit, again it is obvious.
even though lev was written 300 years before christ , according to romans 1, man was without excuse to sin, because god showed his goodness and what was of his goodness thru what he created. to have to use the law to say what is against christ comes against the writings of romans and galatians.
the law came to show us what sin was, we are not under law, we are under grace, but that GRACE does not come cheaply, and we can not do whatever we please under His grace. The Law showed me until the day of Christ, what sin was, I didn't know what covet was until the law said, "thou shalt not covet" and GOD is HOLY and HIS Word is HOLY, Holy is Sacred.
Sin is evil and God cannot look upon sin, hence HE turned away when the sin of the whole world was put on Christ on the Cross, but each person has to repent of their own sin, and come to Christ. We were once slaves to sin, we were under the law, but now I am a Slave to righteousness to Christ, because He paid for my life with HIS own blood, HIS love keeps me and if I should fall, I can confess my sin and HE forgives me, but I am not going to be actively living in sin. The Holy Spirit's job is to convict the world of sin, and that includes me, and each time I do sin now, I get a real zinger from The Holy Spirit and I confess immediately, whereas in the past I would not have cared. Thank you Jesus for changing my life!
I Corinthians 5:11
Now, what I meant was that you should not associate with people who call themselves brothers or sisters in the Christian faith but live in sexual sin, are greedy, worship false gods, use abusive language, get drunk, or are dishonest. Don't eat with such people.
This is God's Word, not mine, and we ought to obey GOD rather than man! God tells us the Kingdom of God is not about FLESH AND BLOOD!!
LOOK to the SPIRIT and LIVE! The flesh kills! Put to death by The HOLY SPIRIT the deeds of the FLESH!!!! The WORD of GOD is not corrupt, the flesh is!
GOD IS HOLY, He's not going to be in an unholy temple (which are bodys when we walk with the LORD, HE resides there, and it is HOLY!!!!) People are worshipping a false god in those other churches! God is calling HIS children to discipline and correction. We are not even to eat with such people, what do you think of that brethren? This is God's Word not mine!
God's Word is not palatable to many people, because HE requires OBEDIENCE! We live in the End Times, mankind have become scoffers, and lovers of themselves, the love of most waxes cold, all prophetic!! Come LORD JESUS come! For Your Glory LORD! JESUS died for these sins, why would you want to stay in what HE died for? In the new heavens and new earth all these things shall pass away, praise GOD!
7953
is your understanding of the term "holy word" interchangeable with your understanding of the word "law" if not how are they differen?
To feetxxxl: First let me say this, I am not inhumane to sinners, as I am a sinner saved by grace. However, God spells it out quite plainly in HIS Word, that homosexuality is a sin, just like adultery and fornication is sin and so is drunkeness. We are not to rely on our FEELINGS OR DESIRES! Those are flesh, we are to walk after THE SPIRIT, our bodies are corrupted from the fall, it is what is inside that is our essence, our soul.
This world is a world of SIN and Christ died to take us out of this world, and once we receive Christ, we are to go and sin no more!!! We cannot actively sin and say we walk with CHRIST!
Man seems to think he can do whatever he wants even when GOD has laid things down so clearly. THe LORD has forgiven me of so much sin, so I do not judge anyone, but I do look at the fruit of their life, and practicing any sin and teaching others to do the same, which is what homosexual churches do, is a greater sin.
DEMONS are teaching destructive heresies and many even within the true church are falling away from the Body of CHrist, to their own destruction.
HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD: 1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Be careful that you don't condemn yourself by what you approve! In Jesus Name, AMEN!
Our GOD IS HOLY! and HE is calling us to holiness!
feet, the scripture you quoted is an excellent one: "1john1 "if we walk in the light as he is in the light, WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER, and the blood of christ purifies us from all sin."
You overlooked the condition here. The fellowship you mentioned is predicated upon the IF of WALKING IN THE LIGHT -- that means the light of God's Holy Word, the light of His Holy Spirit who never argues against His Word, the light of His Truth which is expressed in His Word.
The fellowship of God and His people is not at all sexual in nature; it is SPIRITUAL in nature. It is not about bodies; it's about people's spirits bonding together BECAUSE the Spirit of God is in them, witnessing to each other the truth and love of God.
feet, that's not the Holy Spirit of God who is praising God for abomination. That's an evil spirit masquerading as the Holy Spirit. The Bible says the devil himself can appear as an angel of light to those whose hearts are darkened by sin.
By the way, unless you really hear the Holy Spirit saying that, please do not use the Holy Spirit for your purposes. There are many people that would say, "I hear the Holy Spirit condemning gays" Now here is a problem, either they are wrong about the Holy Spirit, you are wrong about the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Spirit is lying to us (it could also be that both are wrong, and we know that the Holy Spirit cannot lie) If you are not sure about it, then don't use the Holy Spirit to justify your claims or refute others.
By the way, I do not deny fellowship because a person did something wrong but because they continuously do something wrong and do not even have the desire to repent. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 5:11 "But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral... With such a man do not even eat." Paul repeatedly includes homosexual behavior with other sexually immoral behavior. Note that Paul says this only about people who engage in sexually immoral behavior and at the same time call themselves a brother. The person needs to repent, by the way you are acting towards them they will not see the need for repentance.
feetxxxl,
To assume that people cannot bond without sexuality is gravely mistaken. A father doesn't have to have sex with his son and daughter in order to have a real relationship with them. Or a Husband does not have to have sex with his female or male friend in order to have a real relationship with them. What you are positing is directly against God and the revelation of scriptures. Paul repeatedly lists homosexuality, laying with another of your gender the same way as you do the opposite, as a sexual sin. To assume that the kiss of fellowship is sexual in nature is disgusting and twisted. I suppose the next thing you will say is that Jesus and Judas were both gay lovers? It is extremely unwise to put a modern (or more probably postmodern) distorted interpretation into the Bible.
Further more, to show love and good will to homosexuals and a genuine concern for them, we need to treat them like real human beings and reach out to them. This does not imply accepting their behavior. If we truly care about them we will show them God's love and desire for their lives.
because when i pray i hear the holy spirit praising god for homosexuals. i originally came to the place, where i wanted to worship in an environment where orientation was a non -issue., and now it has become difficult to worship anywhere else.
how can we sever sexual intimacy from human bonding, is that your understanding, you that are married, that you could bond with your wife with or without sex. that one flesh is a spiritual union that has no bearing on physical intimacy. is it not the natural inclination for humans, to bond thru sexual intimacy when attraction is coupled with respect, devotion,love, and trust. is not that the highest expression of sexual intimacy when it is an expression of love, devotion. trust, and respect coupled with attraction.
even john in 1john1 noted the importance of physical intimacy in fellowship.............................."that we have looked at and our hands have touched."
jesus mentioned fellowship extended thru a kiss.
feet -
We've been through this 1John1 before, and you didn't want to really discuss it, just assert it should have the meaning you want to apply to it. Remaining in active sin, AS THE BIBLE DESCRIBES SIN, is not fellowship with Christ.
Answer me this -- why would a heterosexual choose to attend a homosexual church for months?
have been going to 100% gay church these last months(mcc). the spirit of worship is devout. being the only heterosexual among 100's of homosexuals is decidedly different than being among heterosexuals. but after having interacted and felowshipped with them i can think of nothing more inhumane and more humanly destructive than to chastise these brothers in christ for their heart felt desire to bond with those of the same sex.
if those who think otherwise had an once of fellowship in themselves and concern for those who have suffered so much, merely to have the freedom to live their lives free from condemnation, their concern would have driven them to see for themselves the spirit of how they conduct their lives and worship christ.
i do not understand your fear that keeps you from making your 1john1 witness, if for no other reason, than for the love of a brother who shares the same inheritance.
remeber 1john1 "if we walk in the light as he is in the light, WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER, and the blood of christ purifies us from all sin.
you are sadly mistaken if you think you can deny fellowship, and still walk in the light, and believe your judgement in doing so has any resemblance to the love of christ.
"Temptation is no sin, giving in is. Protestants (like Jester) do not quite get this from what I have seen."
You dont pay much attention to anythng I say, do you. Temptations is not a sin. Jesus was tempted, so if temptation was a sin, then Jesus is not perfect.
And you bring up homosexuality...why? Could it be because the topic of this article is homosexuality? It the article was about lying, I would be discussing lying. Will homosexuality separate you from God? Yes. Will murder? Yes. Will lying? Yes. Will stealing? Yes. Will cheating on an exam? Yes. They are all sins. And they all separate us from God. Can homosexuality keep us out of heaven? I don't know. Will lying? I don't know. But I'm not going to be the guinea pig to find out. I choose not to involve myself in those things because they are sin. Do i still lie? Yes. But do I practice lying? No. There is a difference between practicing sin and just sinning. We cannot cease from sinning. But we can cease from practicing sin.
"Then they call the Catholic church stiff and immovable even though it leaves room for homosexuality and even to a point defends that homosexuality itself is no sin."
I never called the Catholic church stiff and immovabl. I said their misled. And they mislead others. Case in point: homosexuality.
Whatever the Pope says...goes. Even to the point of claiming that the Catholic church is the only true way to salvation.
ingoditrust - you said "But two men can love each other and do something pure and good with their love, and not give in to temptation. Temptation is no sin, giving in is."
Give me an example of how this might be.
Temptation is no sin, giving in is. Protestants (like Jester) do not quite get this from what I have seen. They maintain that homosexuality (even though the homosexuals cannot help it) is a mortal sin and whoever is homosexual is going to go hell, too late for them, hell hell hell. Then they call the Catholic church stiff and immovable even though it leaves room for homosexuality and even to a point defends that homosexuality itself is no sin. Pot? Kettle. Kettle? Pot
Jester-
Did you just say "I am a little ten-year old protestant heathan, I need my mommy, I cannot express my oppinion without putting words in people's mouth, and I hate gays?"
Feet-
You are correct. Homosexuality itself is no sin. But ACTING under it IS. I believe: "Impure and un-natural sexual action" covers homosexual fornication. But two men can love each other and do something pure and good with their love, and not give in to temptation. Temptation is no sin, giving in is.
feet.
Did you just say "blah blah blah blah blah distortion blah blah blah 2000 years blah blah blah blah blah conspiracy blah blah blah blah scandal blah blah blah blah anti-gay setiments blah blah blah blah we can do whatever we want without fear of judgement blah blah blah blah i dont want to change me so lets change the Bible blah blah blah blah blah blah my god is impotent and worthless blah blah blah"?
walking in circles????????? im just discovering why its taken so long for the church to realize that scripture never said homosexuality was a sin. the only way the distortion was maintained by transposing an 18th century word into a 2000 year old text.
any reasonable testing of the translation reveals that it comes against the gospel, and that homosexuality does not come against" loving your neighber as yourself" the summation of the law.
i didnt realize how replete the anti homosexual attitude was , that existed throughout christendom, and how deeply its infused in our christian culture.
testing is a new concept in regards to the interpretation of scripture .................. even after 2000 years, and a majority of believers are still living out their faith as if they were still "under the law". so its no wonder the "bible says" approach to the issue of homosexuality.
Hillbilly... you are confused?
hillbilly...
I can't stop laughing! Youre too much! I have no idea what yoiu said, but it sounded good! You keep on using those size 15 feet to take you down the path of holiness. God won't lead you astray.
boy howdie bigfoot it sho mus be confuzin studin 18 different translations huh but i still dont see ur point did u say it does refer to homosexuality im mean what are you talking about u said it does say it says it then u say you dont understand it im confused or you are one so you said it talks about it in all these translations then u say u dont understand why its wrong those big feet are walking in circles . by the way i wear a 15 its so hard to find shoes
i apologize for my ignorance. i studied 18 translations of 1cor6 . 8 made unqualified referral to homosexuality in general, 1 refferred to homosexuqality with qualifications, three referred to sodomities, 4 referred to sins commited in same sex relations, and only three made no reference to homosexuality.
i had no idea how anti homosexual our theogical community was. no wonder the leglization of homosexuality was not from the appeals of the church, but from the public at large who thru relationshps of friendship,of family, of being neighbors, or at the work place, that embraced homosexuals with fe;lowship honoring each others life experiences, carrying one anothers burdens, coming to know each other, not thru out ward appearances but inner soul connections.
i dont understqnd. we all agree that healthy sexuality is when sexual intimacy is an expression of the respect, devotion, attraction. trust, love between individuals in the relationship, and with believers, the expression includes the inclusion of the spirit christ under vows of marriage. yet when homosexuals have the same relationship and express the same intimacy,included with same devotion to christ, according to the translation of 1cor6, it is so grievous a sin as to threaten salvation.
yet there is no evidence compared to heterosexuality that homosexuality is anything less, but instead equal in spirit. which could not be said of those given over to the sin nature in gal 5 compared to those who were not.
Lambda Legal - Legal Help for LGBT People
Colage, For People with LGBT Parents
International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission
Servicemembers Legal Defense Network
Lambda Legal
National Gay & Lesbian Task Force (NGLTF)
Gay & Lesbians Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD)
Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN)
National Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA)
Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG)
Egale Canada
American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)
Stonewall Democrats
Log Cabin Republicans
Wow! So that's a lot of "no agendas" and " no homosexual movements".
1 Kings 14:24
24 There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
A proverbial term of reproach applied to those who practiced sodomy (ritual homosexuality) (Deuteronomy 23:17; 1 Kings 14:24;15:12;22:46; 2 Kings 23:7; Job)
And is applied to males (Deuteronomy 23:17)
Destroyed by fire as a judgement (Genesis 19:24,25)
Wickedness of (Genesis 19:4-14)
The word "harlot" ("shrine prostitute" (N. I. V.)) appears in (Genesis 38:21,22)
And is the translation of a Hebrew feminine form of the word translated elsewhere "sodomite" (Hosea 4:14)
To be judged according to opportunity (Matthew 11:24; Luke 10:12)
See SODOMY"
Leviticus 18:22
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
The leviticus passage really leaves no room for interpretation does it?
my understanding is that christ said you will recognize them by their fruit.........................fruit being fruit of the spirit......................and that bad tree cannot produce good fruit and good tree cannot produce bad fruit.
matt7:16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
homosexuals ahve not been found lacking in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals.
are you aware of a dferent test given by christ? again please annotate.
it is merelysaying that there are those, who bexcause of the nature they are born with, are not given the word of a man woman bonding. put your own understanding on it, but please annotate.
are you crediting yourself with knowing the mind of god......see isaiah 55.
given i ask plese explain how the words of scripture say that homosexuality is against christ.
1cor139For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Homosexuality is against God's plan for man and woman. It is symptomatic of an anti-Christ spirit.
Eunuchs were not homosexuals.
im just asking you to explain how the words in the verses of scripture say that homosexuality is against christ, whom god has put everything under.
homosexuality, the human bonding of two of the same gender out mutual love, devotion,
attraction,respect,trust , the same as with heterosexuals, for a shared committed life together.
are you familiar with matthew 19: 11, jesus's followup comment after he said a man will leave his mother and father and become one flesh........................
Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
are homosexuals found lacking in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. are they less a brother, father, counselor, manager, pastor, soldier, doctor, friend, neighbor etc.
Jesus the Christ made it ultra-clear what God's plan was for man and woman in Matthew 19. He always verified the moral law of God which had been so from the beginning. If children are taught that homosexuality is normal and acceptable, they will then not understand the truth of God's plan.
if the under the new covenant there is only one standard....love. how does creating a level playing field for children dealing with different levels of understanding their orientation come against this.
i know my expereience in secondary and elementary school was that daily there were asperions made against those perceived to appear different particularly in regards to sexual orientation. and no one came to their rescue...............not a student, teacher, or administrator.
are the ones who are concerned, the ones that are recalling that time in their lives as a child they were equally attracted to both boys and girls had to make a very difficult decision.........a decison once made was then irrevoccalable.
its not uncommon for decisions made in the name of fear to bear no resemblance to rational thinking.
just as there has been no one able to explain how the words in the verses of scripture say that homosexuality comes against christ, no one has been able to explain how the changes pending in the schools will do anything other than making children repectful of an dividual's understanding of his own orientation or the different processes that others go thru to eventually determine it.
how does that come against the standard of love?
yes maranatha: amen!!!!! Thank God there are alternatives to public schools, and hopefully those who hail the oh so hypocritical "freedom of choice" on the left would at some point vote for people to have a "choice" with school vouchers subsidized by the tax that we as honorable law abiding citizens pay, so we can have the "choice" to send our kids to private schools, charter schools, or be able to purchase homeschool Beka Book material for those of us who feel it best to homeschool our children. So much for freedom of choice so liberally heralded as the champion for the left. They use it only when it suits their liberal/social progressive/secular humanist agenda they have on their minds. They use it to endorse their macabre ways of indoctrinating children into believing homosexuality, transexualism, and other "isms" not notable to mention are ok, and subsequently do so with your family's and my family's tax payer dollars, so why should I send my kid to public school, or even be required to pay taxes on the schools that will endorse these teachings that clearly wll just sink society more into depravity, if they are trying to take away the last moral fiber left in this once great society called the USA?
I say no, and I will not support any such actions by the homosexual mafia, NAMBLA, GLSTEN, and other's pushing their explicit videos, and classes on our children with our tax payer dollars.
This so called liberal, anti moral, anti family Senate Bill 777 (SB-777) should be renamed SB-666, because it is clearly Anti-Christian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank God there are alternatives to public school!
recently discoveries have suggested that the male y chromosome is prone to replicative failure and that in 125,000 years or so human males will cease to exist. then either the human species becomes extinct or as in other species the females adapt to give female to female birth.
mammal biology is infinitely adaptive which is why mammals have thrived since the collapse of the dinosaurs. sexuality is not a fixed black and white line, but a range of reproduction strategies that have evolved to maximize fitness. in this cycle all types of sexuality including homosexuality serves a function. to suggest that any single strategy is the only correct course is to totally misunderstand how life creates and sustains itself.
This is so stupid that i cant even find words to say. WHAT ARE WE BECOMING IN THIS COUNTRY. This is so annoying,i wish these people would leave our children out of their agenda. I KNOW FOR A FACT MY CHILDREN WILL KNOW THAT THIS IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE LIFESTYLE because they will be homeschooled like me and my wife were and no one can tell me what to teach them. PEOPLE STAND UP FOR YOUR KIDS BEFORE THESE PERVERTS GET TO THEM......... WAKE UP AMERICA..........
s_vawter..
You asked "Are there really any texts in public school saying "gays are evil?"
By simply saying that heterosexualism is the only acceptable orientation is, in itself, calling gays evil....according to gays. You don't need to tell the other crowd that they are wrong...you just need to tell them that you are right. That's enough to hurt their fragile ego enough for them to whine about it.
Wow, here's something for the transgendered person and her responders- if one says this is how they were born, as a result of the orignial sin and it's corruptive influenece on man, then how would you respond? Or, cnversely, that it is indeed a choice, and a sin, but all have sinned? In all the Bible, only Jesus identifies a sin that is unforgivable, and it is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. If memory serves, the New Testament states "if you've broken even the lleast of the Law, you've broken the whole law," so would this not mean lying and homosexuality are sins, and would this also suggest that sin is sin, as there are no levels of severity for man to determine? Basically, while one may find another's deeds or appearance to be distasteful, or requirement as Christians is to "Hate the sin, love the sinner." Love thy neighbor stops there, and has no qualifying statement as to which ones we are to love, and which we are not.
Umm, why is this law neccessary? Are there really any texts in public school saying "gays are evil?"Aren't the laws ensuring equal opportunity sufficient enough? This reeks of agenda, one which Christians should be wary of. Further, if I were Californian, I'd be offended that my legislators are wasting their time doubling up social protection laws and not actually doing anything they're paid to do. History shall reflect this time in humanity to be among the most ridiculous, rivling Caligiula for it's sheer nonsensical indulgence.
A homosexuals defense is they were born that way.
Lets take a moment and think about the born a homosexual, the act not the person for God loves the person. Lets not use the Bible here for a second.
If the person is born a homosexual, then what we are witnessing is the extinction of man. If it took millions of years for man to evolve, then whose to say that it couldn’t take years for his extinction?
Lets put three groups of people on three separate islands by themselves. The one group, heterosexuals, the other group homosexuals (same sex) and the third bisexuals. At the time these three groups where left on their separate island, the youngest was, lets say…fifteen and the oldest thirty. Now leave them there for one hundred years and then return to get them. What would you find?
Lets go the heterosexuals island first. You will find life. You will find that the numbers, population, has increased. You might find buildings, boats, children running around. You might find that over the period of years these have found their way off the island and returned over and over again.
Lets go to the homosexuals island, what would you find? Death. There is no one to replace the ones that died off. At one point the last ones to die might be to tired and old to bury the bodies, so you might find decaying bodies. Two homosexuals can not reproduce.
Lets go to the bisexuals island. You will find life. However, bisexuals go either way, either heterosexual or homosexual, so if they want this life, then they must go heterosexual. By doing this, they are elevating the heterosexual above the homosexual. They are saying we are bisexual, but, if we want to sustain life, then we must perform an heterosexual act.
We as man should be more interested in stopping our extinction, if they were born that way.
asushunamir- i dont know how to say this with in a peaceful way or full of grace, but i too will try. you are not a girl, you are a boy, God made you a boy, you made yourself appear to be a girl, but in God's eyes you are a boy. i pray that parents of children who think they want to live life as another sex will help their children get proper help and counsel from men and women of integrity and morality to guide them to the truth that living as something other than God created you to be is called sin. God loves you as you are, not as you have had doctors re make you into, He wants you to be a MAN of integrity and uprightness, not a man of immorality and sin, HE wants all of us to repent and come to Him and let Him work in us for us to be what He intended us to be. Dont get me wrong, we are all sinners that need God's grace, but once He has showered us with His grace, He expects us to rely on Him for the guidance by His Holy Spirit to lead us and direct us down the straight paths, not obscure ones. I pray that even as you read this response that the Holy Spirit will move upon you and open your heart and mind and take the scales from your eyes to see His truth and love and grace made available for you by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. as for my brothers and sisters IN Christ Jesus we need to continue to pray unceasingly for our society, it continues to spiral downward, pray especially for our young people, as Satan tries to decieve them and corrupt them so early. God help us to let our voices be heard
Asushunamir
There is no such thing as transgendered, transsexual or whatever word you try to attach to your perceived "condition". The condition is one of sin. Once you dedicate your life to Jesus, all your sins are taken away. Yes, it is quite possible for children to commit sexual sins as young as pre-teen these days. The doctor whom you allowed to do this to you should be ashamed and ask forgiveness for helping you, in effect, switch over to a gay lifestyle. You were not born the way you were and this is a fact whether you choose to accept it or not. Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand! And when you stand in front of Him, saying you were "born" this way will not be an excuse.
Quote: "The bill will affect textbooks and instructional materials for students in kindergarten and grades 1-12 and will change the typical concept of family, conservative groups argue."
The concept has already changed! Back in my day, marriages between people of different faiths were frowned upon. We had to learn that just because a family was different from ours didn't mean they were less of a family. This is just a new twist on the same issue.
I don't agree with every faith, teaching, or practice of every family in my community, but I treat them all the same and would not shield my kids from them or their lives. To me that is what true Christianity is all about. If such a law would help kids not make fun of other kids for any reason, I'm for it.
"I can only plead with parents of trans children to listen to their children, instead of trying to force us to be something we are not - it will only cause damage, and pain in the future."
Morals and ethics SHOULD be about the alleviation of human suffering, not based upon arbitrary interpretations of bronze-age religious texts. As long as some believe that sexual orientation in any form is a choice and moral issue, millions will continue to suffer needlessly.
I don't really know how to say this in a way that is peaceful and of grace, but I will try. Transsexuals are, in general, the women (or men) we claim to be. I am sick and tired of seeing the broken lives, and agony of my people (trans), from us simply not being allowed to be who we are. Early intervention transition (ie. allowing people to become themselves when they are YOUNG), allows people to assimilate into their proper gender fairly easily and smoothly, without a lot of the hormonal, societal, and medical mess caused by delaying until later. I myself had the benefit of a transsexual doctor putting me on hormones at age 20 - and with a lot of work, I got the physical effects cleaned up of a puberty gone wrong. I now pass perfectly as a woman, and am living a generally completely normal life. I know this is hard to understand, but in general, these people using these laws are not 'boys', they're girls who just need to be themselves, before puberty makes things A LOT WORSE for them. Hormonal intervention can allow them to live normal lives, and grow up as the women they are, rather than the 'men' they are not. Our society venerates young genegirls - but I will always side with the young transgirl who just needs to be herself and who can be INCREDIBLY beautiful with early intervention, completely throwing aside the 'ugly trans' stereotype that gets attached to us all the time. Now that I'm through this mess, I'm probably just going to settle down in a fairly normal relationship with a man, and not really tell anyone in society. People just don't understand us, and detest us because of our chromosomes. I find I'm drifting towards the 'traditional female' role now that this mess is mostly behind me, but it's not a matter of doctrine, it's a matter of natural inclination.
I can only plead with parents of trans children to listen to their children, instead of trying to force us to be something we are not - it will only cause damage, and pain in the future.
The referendum being sought will NOT solve the problems that SB777 will cause. This is only a stop-gap measure that buys only about 6 months of moratorium. After that, with no other viable alternatives in the wing, the law can be virtually copied, given a new number and that too will pass and be signed by El Governator.
What is needed is a constitutional amendment, nothing less.
this is one example of why we need God's word so desperately. we simply can't distinguish between truth and error,right and wrong. we as a people are so clouded by sin that apart from God's revelation in his Holy Word and his Holy Spirit we simply can't see clearly. our world is in a state of confusion and discord and man, when he finally humbles himself will see that he simply can't make it right. salvation is in Christ alone.
The world is upside down. This is nuts! This is one reason why my kids are home-schooled.