Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Opinion|Wed, Dec. 26 2007 11:16 AM EST

Nietzsche Would Laugh

By Chuck Colson|Christian Post Guest Columnist

One of the biggest obstacles facing what’s called the “New Atheism” is the issue of morality. Writers like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens have to convince people that morals and values are possible in a society that does not believe in God.

It’s important to understand what is not in doubt: whether an individual atheist or agnostic can be a “good” person. Of course they can, just as a professing Christian can do bad things.

The issue is whether the secular worldview can provide a basis for a good society. Can it motivate and inspire people to be virtuous and generous?

Not surprisingly, Richard Dawkins offers a “yes”—grounded in Darwinism. According to him, natural selection has produced a moral sense that is shared by all people. While our genes may be, in his words “selfish,” there are times when cooperation with others is the selfish gene’s best interest. Thus, according to him, natural selection has produced what we call altruism.

Except, of course, that it is not altruism at all: It is, at most, enlightened self-interest. It might explain why “survival of the fittest” is not an endless war of all against all, but it offers no reason as to why someone might give up their lives or even their lifestyle for the benefit of others, especially those whom they do not even know.

Darwinist accounts of human morality bear such little resemblance to the way real people live their lives that the late philosopher David Stove, an atheist himself, called them a “slander against human beings.”

Being unable to account for human altruism is not enough for Sam Harris, author of Letter to a Christian Nation. In a recent debate with Rick Warren, he complained about Christians “contaminating” their altruistic deeds in places like Africa with “religious ideas” like “the divinity of Jesus.” Instead of rejoicing at the alleviation of suffering, he frets over someone hearing the Gospel.

In response, Warren pointed out the inconvenient (for Harris, that is) truth: You won’t find many atheists feeding the hungry and ministering to the sick in places like Africa or Mother Teresa’s Calcutta. It is precisely because people believe in the divinity of Jesus that they are willing to give up their lives (sometimes literally) in service to those whom Jesus calls “His brothers.” And that’s why my colleagues and I spend our lives ministering in prisons.

In contrast, the record of avowedly atheistic regimes is, shall we say, less than inspiring. Atheist regimes like the Soviet Union, Red China, and Cambodia killed tens of millions of people in an effort to establish an atheistic alternative to the City of God. For men like Stalin and Mao, people were expendable precisely because they were not created in the image of a personal God. Instead, they were objects being manipulated by impersonal historical forces.

One atheist understood the moral consequences of his unbelief: That was Nietzsche, who argued that God is dead, but acknowledged that without God there could be no binding and objective moral order.

Of course, the “New Atheists” deny this. Instead, they unconvincingly argue that you can have the benefits of an altruistic, Christian-like morality without God.

Nietzsche would laugh—and wonder why they don’t make atheists like they used to.

This commentary first aired on October 9, 2007, and is part two in a five-part series.

_________________________________________________

From BreakPoint®, December 26, 2007, Copyright 2007, Prison Fellowship Ministries. Reprinted with the permission of Prison Fellowship Ministries. All rights reserved. May not be reproduced or distributed without the express written permission of Prison Fellowship Ministries. “BreakPoint®” and “Prison Fellowship Ministries®” are registered trademarks of Prison Fellowship

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  • Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Citizen, I didn't see where you answered this:

    "Mill was a utilitarian and thought that what brings the most amount of pleasure and least amount of pain to the most people is what's "right". How is that an objective moral standard and how do you determine such a thing? And Aristotle’s ‘golden mean’ is just an ancient form of situational ethics – no absolute or unchanging objectivity there either, plus who decides on what Aristotle deemed “moderate” in terms of morals?"

  • Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    converse, you do not understand the difference between the old covenant which was fulfilled in the life and death of Jesus Christ and the new covenant by which Christians live today. A study of the book of Hebrews may help you understand that.

  • Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Thanks for your reply Slacker. I don't say there are no moral absolutes etc..I only question as to why there must be? If there are no absolutes should society act as if there are therefore Or should people be trusted to behave in such a way that they don't generally harm each other?Of course there will always be those who behave in a contrary way (whether society has absolutes or not). It is not really matter of what I want (or you for that matter) concerning absolutes and society but that we reach a point that reflects reality. Regards Steve

  • Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To SteveH20...
    "Hello Slacker, why must there be absolute values to judge our acts by. It may (or maynot be desirable) but that does not mean there must be. As much as it may be disliked it may be that all things are relative, it may be that we have to work out for ourselves what actions harm us and our society with nobody to decide but ourselves. It is difficult but life is like that sometimes. "

    So you say that there are not absolutes and that everything is relative, what is good for me may not be good for you... Ok let me pose a hypothetically situation to you... What if I thought Murder was "right", I could kill anyone i wanted with no justification and because what is right for me would make it "OK". If we didn't have absolutes like a law against murder, we would have anarchy in society, everyone would be killing because it was "right" for them. That is why relativism cannot work in a society because we do have moral absolute laws in place to prevent "what is right for you and right for me". Moral Absolutes are necessary because it brings order and structure to chaos...

  • Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    converse02 – thanks again for your questions.

    << Excuse me, are you God?>>

    Not the last time I looked. I’m surprised you ask the question of mixing material types when I asked and answered the question already myself. There is a ‘spiritual’ principle behind the command just as there are spiritual principles behind nearly everything (if not all) of what God commands. The core teaching is to not mix the beliefs of Israel with the pagan nations around them in the way a person may mix two material types.

    << The Bible, source of your "absolute" morasl, clearly states in Lev 20:13 that gays are to killed, yet you disobey this law. >>

    Once again, you are confusing *punishment* with *morals* and the moral law of what is right/wrong. And I am not avoiding your OT darts that you’re throwing out – I pointed you to how the punishment was carried out by Christ when He confronted the exact same sin as described in the OT. Did Christ bless the adulterous woman’s sin in John 8? Not at all – the absolute moral law did not change – adultery is a sin; it will always be so in the eyes of God. But Christ forgave the sin and did not agree to her stoning. However, notice His parting words to her – “go and sin no more”. If adultery was not sin (if that moral law had changed…), then why would He say that? He said that because adultery was and still is disobedience against God’s absolute moral law.

    Do you see the difference?

  • Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    maranatha7593.
    Please explain to me how Jesus getting executed by Romans dying for our sins.
    Where do you get the notion that by getting executed on the cross, Jesus "became sin for us." Why was it necessarily for Jesus to die on a cross to do it? As an all powerful being, could he not just snap his fingers?

  • Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    schumacr
    You ask "Does God care about wool/polyester blends?" and conclude he doesn't. Excuse me, are you God? Anyone who can read can see God DOES care about wool/polyester blends, that's why he MADE A LAW about it in the Bible. If God didn't mean mixing material types, THEN WHY DOES HE SAY DON'T MIXED DIFFERENT MATERIAL TYPES?!?!?

    The Bible, source of your "absolute" morasl, clearly states in Lev 20:13 that gays are to killed, yet you disobey this law.

    Same with Deu 22:23-24, which you avoid. The situation here is specifically rape, not adultery. "Ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not."
    Do ou stone a quiet rape victims as your "Law giver" commanded? No.

    What happened? "Absolute" morals change?

  • Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Citizen, I have a horrible idea; it may be that some people have thoughts that are just as valid as philosphers of the past. It is very easy to turn dead philosphers writings into "holy scripture" themselves, almost as if "our" opinions are some how lesser than theirs.

  • Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Maranantha: If you have read Mill and Aristotle, then you know that both propose objective standards. That you find them hard to use does not make them less objective.

  • Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hello Slacker, why must there be absolute values to judge our acts by. It may (or maynot be desirable) but that does not mean there must be. As much as it may be disliked it may be that all things are relative, it may be that we have to work out for ourselves what actions harm us and our society with nobody to decide but ourselves. It is difficult but life is like that sometimes.

  • Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:51 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    converse02 – thanks for your question. I would respectfully point out that you’re confusing the *punishment* for a moral violation with whether or not that violation is immoral or not. In addition, I think you’re confusing “is” vs. “ought”. Finally, there’s the question of various Old Testament laws in general.

    Working backwards, you have to understand the ‘spirit’ behind various OT laws given by God to Israel. For example, God commanded Israel not to wear garments woven together by two different material types. Does God care about wool/polyester blends? Of course not. The spiritual principle behind the command was to not mix their true religion with the pagan religions around them. Homosexuality and marital faithfulness, likewise, have a spiritual implication (the unity/diversity of God and singular devotion to God alone). Finally, if you want to see how the One who wrote and gave these laws to Israel carried out their punishment, read Jesus’ handling of the adulterous woman in John 8.

    On the matter of punishment vs. immorality, again, homosexuality and adultery have always been and will always be immoral acts; they haven’t evolved to be considered OK in our day.

    This brings us to the last point – “is” vs. “ought”. What a society does and accepts does not make an act moral. Torturing babies will always be wrong in any culture for all time. Ditto rape and other acts. Culture does not control this principle and one only needs to remember that the Nazis tried this defense during the Nuremberg trials, where their whole defense was built around the argument that they were just following orders and the cultural laws of the land. Then came the famous statement by one of the judges: “But gentlemen, is there not a Law above our laws?”

    Thanks again for your question.

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I have a questions...

    If there are no Absolutes and Everything is relative, How do you define what Moral Law is??? If you have no absolutes how do you judge an Athiests Morals?

    You have to have some sort of Absolute to judge something against, you judge how a word is spelled thru the absolute of a dictionary. Only thru an Absolute God can you judge a persons morals.

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Whether people have commited bad acts in the name of God or no God does I believe not go to the heart of the issue on this subject. Whatever Stalin or Hitlers did etc..whether one was a Christian or not has no bearing on whether God exists or not, I can't help feel that the arguament from morality is very much like the ontological arguament, it has a lot of heat but casts very little light.

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    converse02, the moral law of God has not changed. The penalty for breaking it has. Jesus came for the express purpose of forgiving sin; He died on the cross and became sin for us that we might be heirs of eternal life and have abundant life here. He didn't come to condemn but to save. We are now living in a grace period whereby men can be saved from their sin. But that period will not last indefinitely. There is a day of judgment coming.

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    converse02, nothing you said disproved anything I had posted. Giving lipservice to God means nothing unless one's actions back it up; the Pharisees were clear evidence of that. I know exactly what the Crusades were, and I also know who instigated them. Atheistic leaders have killed people for no other reason than that they believed in God, and their belief was considered a threat to a communist government.

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    maranatha7593
    Hilter believed in God, in Jesus, and ruled over a Christianized Germany.
    "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter."
    -Hitler.
    Hitler was indeed, a Christian.

    The Crusades were a series of military conflicts of a religious character waged by much of Christian Europe during 1095–1291, most of which were sanctioned by the Pope in the name of the Catholic Church.

    Where have you heard of anyone killing someone and proclaiming they did it for "no God?" That defies common sense. There are many examples of ppl killing and shouting they did it for "God."

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Schumer
    You say moral don't evolve, but what about these bible (KJV) quotes:

    Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Deu 22:23-24 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not

    So, should we still be killing gays and stoning quiet rape victims?

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:11 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    Hitler was no Christian. He did not follow the Lord Jesus Christ in any way. Not only did he seek to exterminate Jews, but his Nazis also burned Bibles and persecuted Christians. I realize some people equate church membership with being a Christian, but Jesus never did.

    The Crusades were instigated by Moors/Muslims, not Christians. Many people do not realize that.

    There have indeed been atheistic leades who killed in the name of "no God", who persecuted, imprisoned, and even killed people for no other reason than that they would not recant their faith. This is still happening today, in countries around the world.

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    schumacr

    God the Almighty has made our nation.
    -Adolf Hitler, in a radio address, 30 Jan. 1945

    In is interesting you cite Hitler because he was a Roman Catholic, a Christian, not an atheist. Hitler Germany was largely a Christianized nation. The Vatican celebrated his birthday and Hitler was never excommunicated, unlike Galileo. Hitler did not personally kill 20 mil ppl. Many of his orders were carried out by Christians.
    And Mao was chinese. To suggest if he believed in the Stove God or Shang Ti and think that would have stopped the cultural revolution shows a gross misunderstanding history and culture.

    Again, common sense shows no one would kills for "no God," just like no one kills for no Santa or no Thor. Mao was an atheist, but he didn't kill for atheism. Likewise, Hitler was a Roman Catholic but he didn't kill for religion. Mao killed for communism and Hilter killed for fascism. However, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and the witch burning WERE done in the name God, and justified using specific quotes from the Bible.

    No one kills for "no" God is not refuted by history and is soundly supported by common sense. You assertion that you need God for morality is refuted by the existance many moral atheists. Even atheistic ideologies like Buddhism and Zen contain many moral agents. You don't need God to be good. Many laws of the United States contradict those of the Bible because they are deemed too immoral and old fashioned.

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:24 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Citizen - I have read Aristotle and Mill (not Rawls). I'm not sure where you're getting support for your position. For example, Mill was a utilitarian and thought that what brings the most amount of pleasure and least amount of pain to the most people is what's "right". How is that an objective moral standard and how do you determine such a thing? And Aristotle’s ‘golden mean’ is just an ancient form of situational ethics – no absolute or unchanging objectivity there either, plus who decides on what Aristotle deemed “moderate” in terms of morals?

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:28 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    citizen, what is the basis of an atheist's morality? What standard is used? And would that be the same for every atheist?

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    maranantha7593: If the self-proclaimed "god's people" went around lying about or willfully ignorant of the basis of your morality because you don't buy into their superstitious fantasies, you'd be annoyed too.

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Objective moral standards do not require absolutes or gods to exist. Read Aristotle, Mill, and Rawls for examples.

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:20 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "The point of the article is that the atheist has no basis for determining good from evil"

    This is true. The atheist has no objective standard by which to compare/contrast good and evil.

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    The thing about the "new atheism" is that this new brand of atheists seems to be so angry at God and His people, rather than simply unbelieving in God's existence.

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:12 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    Wiggy – What tells us not to kill everyone that gets in our way and also tells us to help each other is our conscience. We all have it, but not everyone listens to it. It is what God put here to keep the world from spinning totally out of control. Survival of the fittest would have us killing anything that wasn’t perfect.

    Another thing, please point me to verse in the Bible that says we should kill people that work on Sunday. You must have a different version. I assume that you are talking about people that work on the Sabbath, with by the way is NOT Sunday, and it was a law for a specific people (the Israelites) not the Christians. People who don’t know the Bible should not try to talk about it, it only shows ignorance. There is a New Covenant that has nothing to do with the Old Covenant.

    converse02 – I would ask you to point me to the part of the Constitution that mentions “separation of church and state”. In case you don’t know, it’s not there. I assume that you are referring to the first amendment that states, and I QUOTE, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…” I don’t know why all of you have such a hard time reading and understanding that, Congress shall make no law…. What does that have to do with a Christian organization trying to assist in the rehabilitation of criminals? The government sure isn’t managing to do anything.

    Read the Preamble to the Bill of Rights sometime. It was written “in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers..” and that is speaking of the government’s power. It was based on the Virginia Bill of Rights in their State Constitution. Go read sec. 16 of it. As a matter of fact, go read the state constitutions of all the founding states of the union sometime and see if none of them believed in God. We had statesmen back then writing this and God help us, now we have lawyers trying to interpret it!

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:27 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the responses below. It’s clear that most don’t see the point Colson was making. You have intellectually honest atheists like Dawkins and William Provine who have written “there is no good or evil” (Dawkins) and there are “no immutable moral laws” (Provine). Why do they write such things? If there’s such a thing as evil, you assume there’s such a thing as good. If you assume there’s such a thing as good, you assume there’s such a thing as a moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil. If you assume there’s such a thing as a moral law, you must posit a moral law giver, and moreover an absolute moral law giver because if there are no absolutes then you can make no lasting determination. But that’s whom the atheist is trying to disprove and not prove. In other words, atheists can call nothing wrong in the absolute sense.

    To converse02: Yes, I see your point. The last thing we want are folks in prison following Christ and His example of goodness and charity. That would be *awful* for our country. Further, you missed Colson’s point and the question being posed: it is not “Must we believe in God in order to live moral lives?”, but “Do objective moral values exist without God?” As I’ve shown above, they do not. Claiming morals are cultural is silly: in some cultures they help their neighbors and in others they eat them – which do you prefer?

    Further your claim of “No one kills for ‘no’ God.” is soundly refuted by history. When you kill God, someone will have to take his place, and that entity is man. But if man is the measure, which man is it going to be? Darwin saw this when he wrote, “Looking at the world at no distant date, what an endless number of lower races will have been eliminated by the higher civilized races throughout the world.” This is what Nietzsche understood and why he predicted the 20th century would be the bloodiest in history. As R. J. Rummel has chronicled in his book “Death by Government”, Nietzsche was right – look at the deaths carried out by evolutionary-driven, atheistic governments:

    • Joseph Stalin 42,672,000
    • Mao Zedong 37,828,000
    • Adolf Hitler 20,946,000
    • Chiang Kai-shek 10,214,000
    • Vladimir Lenin 4,017,000
    • Hideki Tojo 3,990,000
    • Pol Pot 2,397,000

    To Wiggy: morals don’t evolve; absolute morals have always been there. Racism has always been wrong, but it took people like Wilberforce and Lincoln (both committed Christians BTW…) to enlighten people to the truth that was there. You can never call a line crooked unless you know what an absolute and unchanging straight line looks like. Without God, you have no such standard; you have both feet firmly planted in mid air.

    Folks, no offense, but please wake up. Hosea was right when he said, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” (Hosea 4:6).

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:08 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    The point of the article is that the atheist has no basis for determining good from evil, it is a point of view. And when someone acts in a manner such as Stalin, Mao, or the Colombine killers they are being consistent with their beliefs, that is survival of the fittest. It is said that Trotsky found Darwins theory "intoxicating". Presumably this gave scientific vigor to murder.

  • Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:50 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    "God is Dead" ~ Nietzsche (1873)
    "Nietzsche is Dead" ~ God (1900)

  • Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    johnmorrison9
    In case you don't know, this is America, not Jesusland.
    You can't go around stealing public funds to promote your brand of Christianity.
    Please move if you don't like the idea of separation of state and church.
    They are plenty of nations in the world with God in their constitution, the US isn't one of them.

  • Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    One of the biggest obstacles facing what’s called the “New Atheism” is the issue of morality.

    It's not an obstacle for us at all. It's just one of the many false arguments that the Christianists (how do you like that word :) throw at us to defend their beliefs. We don't get our morality from evolution just as Christianists don't get their morality from the bible. Our genes would tell us not to help strangers, but we do anyway. The bible says to kill people who work on Sunday but that bad verse and many others like it are ignored by Christianists. How do they know which bible verses to ignore? From a moral sense that comes not from the bible but from within them.

    Morality comes from living in a society, not from a book or from scientific understanding. And it's evolving! A hundred years ago a moral person could have also been a racist, sexist child beater but not anymore. Our morality has evolved to the point that now we are even questioning the morality of things like eating meat.

  • Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    People like this only dmg our reputation. We spend so many hours telling you guys how we are good people who do have 'morals' and that your beliefs that we dont are false, and then someone like him comes along and tries to throw in examples of russia china and etc expecting that to represent the atheistic population... this world sickens me.

  • Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:24 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Thank you Chuck and all those who help those in prison.
    May God Bless you all, and forget the secularist, they would harvest the
    prisoner organs, like in China!

  • Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:20 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    converse 02
    I am sure you are a secularist, and that is o.k.
    But allow helping the felons and should not be blocked by some
    law, and by the way it was the laws that landed them in jail, not Jesus,
    because you are a doubter that fears something you don't believe in do not consider yourself so righteous as to hurt those in need because you are secularist.
    those that refuse to believe or

  • Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:13 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 3

    This article is simply refuted by the fact there ARE moral atheists and non-Christian theists in the world. To claim the secular worldview is “Darwinism” is sheer ignorance. You are also spreading misinformed about Dawkins, who has stated he is a “passionate ANTI-Darwinian” when it comes to politics and social conduct, often using contraception as an example. Please do your research.

    They are many secular charities in the world, such as Oxfam and UNICEF. You don’t need God to give. Bill Gates is not particularly religious, yet he has given more than any Christian in history. They are many non-Christians who are scientists, doctors, and yes, even volunteers in Africa and Calcutta.

    The Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia did not kill for atheism. No one kills for “no” God. It’s as absurd as someone killing for “no” Zeus, Thor, or Santa. Stalin and Mao killed for other doctrines. Atheism is simply lack of belief in a deity.

    Lastly, Prison Fellowship Ministry, in Iowa, was ruled to have violated the Constitution’s separation of church and state by pushing Christianity onto vulnerable prisoners and favoring Christian inmates. This ruling was upheld by the US Appeals Court, a rules supported not only by atheists, but non-Christian religious leaders. But the ministry did not have to reimburse the $1.5 million they scammed from taxpayers. Prison Fellowship Ministry, if you want to talk morals, please stop breaking the law and return the money that belongs to the people.

  • Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:23 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    Mr. Colson

    "The issue is whether the secular worldview can provide a basis for a good society." Which is it?

    1. Morals have to come from a real god? If so, only followers of the real God can be moral and you are calling the majority of the earth's population immoral. No longer can you categorize it as believer vs. non-believer. Now it becomes Christian vs. non-Christian.

    2. Is it enough to believe that moral rules come from and are enforced by god when they are really man made? Do you believe Hindus can be moral by following the man made rules attributed to their false gods? If that is the case then the morals are man made and god is simply the motivation for adhering.

    If Nietzsche did not believe in god, then which of the above options do you really think he meant? Nietzsche would laugh - but at how you twist his logic.

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