As the clock struck midnight marking the start of 2008, dozens of gay and lesbian couples stood outside the New Hampshire Statehouse to enter into civil unions.
Beginning this year, civil unions for same-sex couples are legally recognized in New Hampshire. The law was adopted and signed in May 2007.
"We've been together 20 years; we've been waiting for this moment for 20 years; finally the state will recognize us as we are," said Julie Bernier who was joined by partner Joan Andresen.
Organizers of the outdoor ceremony said they checked in 37 gay and lesbian couples for the 11 p.m. event on Monday.
Same-sex "marriage" advocates cheered while no protesters were seen at the Statehouse.
Michael Hein of The Christian Civic League of Maine was the lone opponent who drove 180 miles from Augusta, Maine, and passed out statements denouncing homosexuality. He also attended the event to "report to the people of Maine that this is going on next door," according to The Associated Press.
"Without our vigilance in Maine, (civil unions are) something that could occur as soon as next year," Hein said to AP.
Meanwhile, V. Gene Robinson, Episcopal bishop of New Hampshire, announced that he will marry his same-sex partner in June.
"I always wanted to be a June bride," Robinson recently told an audience at a Florida law school during a lecture series on Sex, Morality and Law.
Robinson caused uproar when he became the first openly gay bishop to be consecrated in 2003. Conservative Anglicans worldwide have denounced the consecration and called for repentance.
New Hampshire became the fourth state - following Vermont, Connecticut and New Jersey - in the nation to allow civil unions when Democratic Gov. John Lynch signed the bill into law last year. The civil unions law gives same-sex couples the same rights, responsibilities and obligations of marriage without calling the union a marriage.
Same-sex "marriage" supporters are expected to push for "full marriage equality - with the word marriage - soon," said state Rep. Jim Splaine, a sponsor of the civil unions bill.
Massachusetts is the only state that allows same-sex "marriage." New Hampshire estimates that as many as 3,500 to 4,000 civil unions will be performed this year.
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The Bible wasn't written by God nor was it written by Jesus. The bible was written by men. It has it's strengths and it's discrepancies. You should take in with a grain of salt. In addition, there are thousands of ways to interpret the bible.
1 Timothy 4:1
[ The Great Apostasy ] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1-3 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
2 Peter 2:1
[ Destructive Doctrines ] But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1-3 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 2:4
[ Doom of False Teachers ] For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
2 Peter 2:3-5 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 2:12
[ Depravity of False Teachers ] But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
2 Peter 2:11-13 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 2:18
[ Deceptions of False Teachers ] For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
2 Peter 2:17-19 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
" Our job as Christians is to show love the same way Christ did..... lovingly tell them they are in sin"
No it isn't. Christ said that our job is to love all our neighbors. He didn't say anything about judging them, condemning them, or 'lovingly' tell them that God hates them and will make them burn in hell. There is no lovingly way to hate a person, and when you fight basic rights to be free of discrimination in the workforce or living quarters, you are doing just that.
Or would you rather me go through the several hundred sins in the Bible and see which ones you violate, and then lovingly tell you how wrong you live your life? Oh, I don't think you would want to hear it. Neither do we.
Beloved, may I suggest that Maranatha7593 is correct. Part of the reason the homosexual community does not like Christianity is not just because God has deemed it an immoral act, homosexuals wrestle with this on a daily basis and don't need to be reminded. No, I believe that another part of the overall reason is that Christians can be more overwhelmed with "the law" more than "the love" as we have been so commanded. We have a tendency to shove Bible versus down the homosexual community's throat instead of opening our hearts and pouring God's love to these same. I myself am guilty of this.
Does this mean that I condone homosexuality? Of course not. The Word of God is quite clear on this. However, that sin, as with any sin, is between the sinner and God himself. What should I believe that my sin is less than theirs? Why should I believe that my rebellion in some areas is less worse than their rebellion in their areas?
Beloved, our jobs as Christians is not to judge, but to point the way. If we point the way using the law, we will have as much success as Lot did. If we point the way with love, we will have a far greater success rate. That is what people will respond to. That is what they are craving, this inner love that they think that only other people can fulfill, but will only be fulfilled by Jesus Himself.
What would get the better response, somebody who just slams the law down and says "obey or go to Hell"; or somebody who opens their hearts and serves them, as Jesus Himself came to serve us.
"Through our service to others, as Jesus served us, the called of them shall come forth and serve with us."
kc,
It's a conspiracy, man.
dongard, Where did you hear that???
saying that Christians have never harmed or jailed homosexuals is simply not true. Not only have christians in positions of authority persecuted homosexuals, but throughout the christian era uncountable numbers of christian leaders have called for the most severe tortures and deaths of people whose only crime was to engage in a sex act.
Most Christian leaders today do not demand extreme penalties, only because they know that most people would not support it. The desire to imprison gays just because they are gay still runs deep.
maranatha7593:
"Is it a loving thing to lie to them, to tell them that God approves of that form of immorality when God's Word is so clear that He doesn't? God tells us in His Word to speak the truth in love. If we do not speak the truth, we do not love."
Amen maranatha!!! I hate it when people say I hate homosexuals because I tell them that they are in sin. Our job as Christians is to show love the same way Christ did..... lovingly tell them they are in sin (using the law aka 10 commandments) and tell them to repent and trust in Jesus Christ.
God bless,
Anthony
www.bellybutton88.blogspot.com
iff: " Actually Jesus didn't condemn gay people at all. Only Paul in the NT and the Book of Leviticus in the OT say anything that could come close to being interpreted as having anything to say about gay people."
Jesus continually affirmed the Word of God, including the OT. He did not NEED to condemn homosexuality because He was always addressing Jews who already KNEW the moral law of God. He did not condemn incest, rape, and child molestation either - does that mean He "must have been in favor of" those forms of immorality as well? Of course not! Jesus expressly, specifically addressed God's original plan for man and woman in Matthew 19 and made it clear that plan has not changed.
Paul and the other NT letter writers were addressing GENTILE believers who did not have the foundation of God's moral law in their lives; therefore, they needed that instruction.
You accuse Christians of not "loving" homosexuals. Is it a loving thing to lie to them, to tell them that God approves of that form of immorality when God's Word is so clear that He doesn't? God tells us in His Word to speak the truth in love. If we do not speak the truth, we do not love.
"Homosexuals should be witnessed to lovingly and kindly with no compromise. Christians have never believed homosexuals should be stoned or harmed in anyway. Just witnessed to, but homosexuals are trying to make law that will force Christian to be silent or jailed for their faith. Taking away parent authority in schools forcing youngsters to embrace this sin."
Well said! You've addressed both sides of the coin here, and done it well. :-)
Quecat: "All of God's MORAL laws contained in the Mosaic covenant, by the way, are repeated in the New Testament. So it's not really all that difficult for us to determine what is moral law and still good for us today, versus what is civil or ceremonial law and therefore limited to Israel as a theocracy in Old Testament time. Of the Ten Commandments of the Mosaic Covenant, for example, all are moral laws, with the exception of one- keeping the Sabbath."
Well said! I really wish more people could grasp this truth.
iff wrote: "Maranatha - Not once have I ever seen you scold a "Christian" who says stuff like that though so in essence you are just as bad as them."
iff, I haven't *seen* anyone "say stuff like that".
Not only have you not corrected "Christians" who made statements not in agreement with God's Word, you yourself have contradicted the Word of God.
Regarding stoning sinners of any sort, you won’t find that in the New Testament. However you will find each sin unequivocally condemned as being a sin. God ultimately will judge these behaviors. It is only for we as Christians to warn our fellow man of the destructive path that he may be walking.
(sorry for the delay in part 2 of this post - I'm in Iowa and had to go caucus)
Go Huckabee! :)
(continued from earlier post)
All of God's MORAL laws contained in the Mosaic covenant, by the way, are repeated in the New Testament. So it's not really all that difficult for us to determine what is moral law and still good for us today, versus what is civil or ceremonial law and therefore limited to Israel as a theocracy in Old Testament time. Of the Ten Commandments of the Mosaic Covenant, for example, all are moral laws, with the exception of one- keeping the Sabbath. Thus all of the "Big Ten" (except the Sabbath) are found in the New Testament. They were not "thrown out" with the coming of Christ. (continued)
Quecat - It has been doing the same to me.
sorry for the delay in posting the remainder of my reply - the site continues to give me errors upon submission...
agentorange:
God says in His Word that He will bless a nation if it obeys His commandments and He will curse a nation if they don't. (Deu 28:1-14 for the blessings and Deu 28:15-68 for the curses)”
God has not changed (Heb13:8). What God calls sin and how He judges sin has not changed. His blessings for obedience has not changed nor has His curses for disobedience changed.
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha because of their wickedness. He also overthrew or destroyed all the other nations in the OT because of their wickedness but not in the same way.
Every nation since the time of Christ God has brought to nought. Two things they had in common: sin was rampant and they adopted homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle.
God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance. God will give any nation time to repent from their wickedness before He brings His judgment on them.
God destroyed the old world with a flood because of the wickedness of man. He will destroy this present world with fire because the nations of this world have refused and will refuse to repent (2 Peter 3:7).
agentorange:
What should we do to homosexuals today?
As a society: We should allow homosexuals to live their life. They have a right to education, housing, work, medical care, and etc..
We should deny them the right to marriage, civil unions, and tax breaks. They should be denied the right to foster children or adopt them. Ttheir demands to indoctrinate school children to their aberrant lifestyles should be denied.
agentorange:
What should we do to homosexuals today?
As a Christian: We should love them as defined in 1 Cor 13:4-7 (be kind, patient, forgiving, not arrogant or boastful, not easily provoked to anger, drunkenness, etc). We should tell them that God says homosexuality is a sin as well as adultery, lying, stealing, murder, and etc. . We should tell them of God's love by sharing the gospel with them. We should pray that they hear the gospel and receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. We should pray that God will set them free from sin and heal their wouned spirit. We should call them to repentance and godly living.
agentorange:
You said:
“Have you forgotten what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah?’
To me this is mystical, symbolic fantasy with the likes of Posiden controlling the oceans and Zeus controling the heavens/clouds. And only those that think that ‘the fall’, ‘no-way flood’, Jonah in the whale, 2 million Jews leaving Egypt and countless others biblical events as REAL events consider the destruction or fear supposed wrath of some being which we can’t even falsify."
Biblical Archaeologist, Ron Wyatt (now deceased) has found the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrha, Noah's Ark, the Red Sea Crossing where Moses and the approxiamately 2 million Israelites went across, and Mt Sinai. You can read about how he found each and what he found on his website. Here is the link: www.wyattmuseum.com
agentorange;
"kc95819, Would you please take a crack at it and explain how we should deal with gays then? Star and others haven't bothered to reply, could you please?"
I haven't answered because I had other things to today. When I am finished with supper I will respond.
iff72, thank you for your kind words below. I know not everyone here agrees with my point of view, but I hope that I at least express something that they can consider and think about. All of the commenters here, including the ones I disagree with, give me lots to think about, and I'm grateful for that.
kc98. . . . said:
"Homosexuals should be witnessed to lovingly and kindly with no compromise."
With the "love" shown to gay people on this site no wonder most of them want nothing to do with the Christian community.
kc95819 - Thanks for sticking up for maranatha but what I was referring to was his / her silence when people say things like gay people should be stoned, etc. Maranatha's silence is essentially agreement since he / she has so much to say on the topic otherwise.
AgentOrange - Actually Jesus didn't condemn gay people at all. Only Paul in the NT and the Book of Leviticus in the OT say anything that could come close to being interpreted as having anything to say about gay people.
agentorange asked,
"Do we stone them to death as the OT law commands or not? Yes, or no. "
you gave
LEVITICUS 20:13 - ASV: (American Standard Version, 1901 and KJV: (King James Version):
You want a yes or no answer to stoning- those do not mention stoning so I don't know where you come up with the question. No, stoning is an ancient law devised by men its of the fleshly world. When death is mentioned in this manner it may be referring to spiritual death and the ever after, not heaven, but the abyss, death or earthly death from STD"s or probably both. That is why we want to save the lost with witnessing to them the good news, the gospel, the light, asking for Jesus to be Lord of your life and repentance of sin gives ever lasting life. Living in denial of your sin, not believing its a sin does not make your sin not sin, and spiritual death will happen.
Homosexuals should be witnessed to lovingly and kindly with no compromise. Christians have never believed homosexuals should be stoned or harmed in anyway. Just witnessed to, but homosexuals are trying to make law that will force Christian to be silent or jailed for their faith. Taking away parent authority in schools forcing youngsters to embrace this sin.
DO YOU BELIEVE CHRISTIANS SHOULD BE JAILED FOR READING THEIR BIBLES OR WITNESSING OR BELIEVING HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG? YES OR NO?
Leviticus contains laws which were given to distinguish the practices of God's people Israel from the pagan practices of the surrounding nations. As Christians we don't believe we have to keep these laws, because they were part of the Mosaic Covenant.
This was a limited covenant, made by God with the Jewish people before the coming of Christ. In fact, the term "old testament" means "old covenant," and refers to the "old" Mosaic Covenant which ended with Christ. The Mosaic Covenant was limited to Old Testament times because it was conditional on Israel's obedience. This covenant was set aside when God formed the New Covenant, based on the death of Jesus Christ.
Because the regulations of Leviticus were part of the Mosaic Covenant, they are not binding for the Christian today. On the other hand, the verse which immediately precedes Leviticus 19:19 contains the moral law to "love your neighbor as yourself," and it is just as binding today as when it was given in the Mosaic Covenant! In other words, as Christians living in the 20th century, we should definitely feel guilty if we snub or wrong our neighbors, but we don't have to feel guilty if we wear a tee shirt made of cotton/polyester blend! Does this mean that we can pick and choose which biblical laws we want to obey and forget about the rest? No, of course not! Leviticus 19:18 is a moral law and God has never done away with, or changed any of His moral standards and principles that are contained in the Mosaic Covenant. God's moral standards never change! It was the civil and ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Covenant that ended with Christ. In order to obey God's command to "rightly divide the Word of truth" we must always distinguish between God's moral laws based on eternal principles and the civil and ceremonial laws associated with conditional covenants. This is all part of properly comprehending the biblical covenants. (continued)
"agentorange,
Would you please give me the OT scripture where this is?"
kc95819, Why oh why must I know the bible better than those that claim to adhere to its very laws?
LEVITICUS 20:13 - ASV: (American Standard Version, 1901) "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
KJV: (King James Version): "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."
and don't give me any sort of its mis translated nonsense, jesus condems gays nearly as much but i don't recall if he called for their death or to persicute and punish them.
The same great 'stonning to death' penalty is called for many things in OT laws. like for kids that defy their parents, a rapist, wizards, witches, unbelivers, people who work on the sabbath, adulterers, and so on.... it's horrid how barbaric the very texts are the precede the bible and naturally churchs don't bother to cover such things in classes.
many passges in the OT regarding penalties and justice make it quite clear to 'put the sword to them' or 'let their blood be upon' them type of rhetoric.
Now that you know what it says and the laws regarding it, do you stone them to death like all the rest it calls for, or not? and please elaborate on why, b/c i find those that love to qoute from the OT regarding gods wrath and such (Maranatha this means you) that when it comes time to define the punishments that coincide with the very same chapters from the OT they usually don't bother to reply.
agentorange,
Would you please give me the OT scripture where this is?
"Do we stone them to death as the OT law commands or not? Yes, or no. "
kc95819,
Would you please take a crack at it and explain how we should deal with gays then? Star and others haven't bothered to reply, could you please?
Do we stone them to death as the OT law commands or not? Yes, or no.
agentorange, OT- NT it is addressed in both. Why not read and reread study with many translations you will get the picture.
ifeelfine72 said,
"Maranatha - Not once have I ever seen you scold a "Christian" who says stuff like that though so in essence you are just as bad as them. "
WHAT does that have to do with anything? I am sure it is some kind of PC jargin. Are you trying to say two wrongs make a right or you can say anything you want as long as you follow it up with Christian bashing? Like race baiting Christian baiting is ugly.
star2-
“They are forcing their aberrant behavior on everyone”
Star2, this is why I asked maranatha7593, how she would prefer we should deal with such things. According to the OT laws, gays are to be STONED TO DEATH. So Star2, since marantha7593 didn’t bother to reply would you please. I noticed that you later attribute your reasoning against gays based on the OT, so I would like to hear your response on what punishment you think they should receive by society and us. Thanks
“Sanctioning homosexuality by lawmakers and the increasing numbers who practice it will only bring the wrath of God on our nation”
How so? How does what 2 people that engage in their own private matters affect you, your family or the nation at large, even indirectly? It’s not like they are going If ‘queer eye for the straight guy’ is on, change the channel.
“Have you forgotten what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah?’
To me this is mystical, symbolic fantasy with the likes of Posiden controlling the oceans and Zeus controling the heavens/clouds. And only those that think that ‘the fall’, ‘no-way flood’, Jonah in the whale, 2 million Jews leaving Egypt and countless others biblical events as REAL events consider the destruction or fear supposed wrath of some being which we can’t even falsify.
Have you forgotten the incest that followed the destruction of Sodom between Lot and his very own daughters?
Have you forgotten the sojourners in Gehena that when asked to ‘know him’ the husband handed over his wife to be raped and ravaged by men and then the following morning proceeded by dicing her body into 12 pieces and spreading her throughout Israel?
“God says in His Word that He will bless a nation if it obeys His commandments and He will curse a nation if they don't. (Deu 28:1-14 for the blessings and Deu 28:15-68 for the curses)”
Well, why the heck are so many countries and nations that don’t follow Christ even around then? Why are Japan, Taiwan, China, Singapore, South Korea, and so on as successful as they are then? Why are many European countries that have growing atheistic and Muslim populations still successful at all? Shouldn’t your god be smiting them left and right?
Feet,
You keep asking the same question,"what is the lie, what is the truth in Romans?"
Homosexuals who want to believe this sin, homosexual sex is not sin, and want to force others to believe the same, is the "lie". The "truth" is heterosexual relations when in the sanctity of marriage, is the "truth" that is what is exchanged for the "lie" statement that is Romans, is my understanding. God gave man seed to plant to create new life (and a place in woman to plant it). man+man=0 woman+woman=0 man+woman=3 in the image of the Trinity that is sacred!.
God gives us His laws and the free will to obey or disobey, and consequences if we disobey. It is not always easy for any of us we are all sinners but this particular sin (and abortion) are the only one to be forced by law on everyone. Why do homosexuals want to be so mean spirited?? They have always had the right to privacy why not use it, and have the experience private between themselves and God?
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Seems pretty clear...
This is mentioned many times in the Bible, in different ways and different books, which gives us clue, its important.
Maranatha - Not once have I ever seen you scold a "Christian" who says stuff like that though so in essence you are just as bad as them.
Here is what SportinLife said:
"And I'll say my piece again: Some of you WANT God to punish gay and lesbian people. You insist on it. And you will be bitter and disappointed and angry if he chooses instead to show mercy.
That attitude doesn't come from Jesus, and it doesn't come from the bible. You need to ask yourselves where it comes from, understand it, and fight it. It is poisoning you, and it is threatening to poison American christianity. "
You really get to the heart of the matter. I wish I was as eloquent as you - you've said basically what I've been wanting to say but couldn't put into words!
Sin is sin. There is no sugar coating it.
"... the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other...And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men ..."
These things are defined by the bible as sin. God says he hates sin.
It doesn't matter how many false teachers that you may gather to yourself to tickle your itching ears and tell you what you WANT to hear. It doesn't matter if a so-called christian fellowship calls itself "open and affirming" - false doctrine is false doctrine and leads only to one destination.
It doesn't matter that you think to yourself "my god is a god of love and he wouldn't comdemn me for following my heart". Jer 17:9 says "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Truth is not relative, it is absolute. God's word is truth.
I am not here to tell you that "I say you are sinful" - I am here to tell you that God's word says that what you are doing is sinful. Unrepented sin leads to destruction.
Same goes for the liar, the thieves, the murderers, the adulterers, the drunkards, the covetous.
Gal 5:21 "...they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. "
SportinLife,
You are driving the whole "punish" deal into the ground, it is quite clear that marantha does not want ANYONE to be punished, so the best thing for you to do is just let it be. From the Christian perspective, anyone who follows Christ will not want gay/lesbian/and all other sinners to be "condemned" however we do want them to have true lives and relationships with God, and to repent of their sins. When Christians pray they do not say, "Dear Father please wipe out the gays and lesbians", real Christians say, "Dear Father please forgive the sinners and show them Your mercy, open their eyes and their minds and change their hearts" That is it, maybe some so-called Christians do as you say, but that is not what Christ did.
There is one thing though, sometimes difficulty in life will change a person for the better, we do not pray, "Dear Father please make everyone's life as pleasant as possible, even if they end up going to hell", rather we are truly concerned for the wellbeing of all people, even our enemies. That is it, Christians do not hate, we don't call on God to wipe out people, that is the whole story. But I am sure your response is going to be, "But don't you want God to punish gay and lesbian people?" or, "but some Christians do say that!" No to the first and the second has been dealt with in this comment.
If it were not for God's mercy, we could not see our need for Him, our need to be forgiven, our need to be cleansed of sin. If it were not for His mercy, we would not be able to experience His love, His forgiveness, His grace, His truth, His wisdom, His peace. If it were not for His mercy, we would all stumble through life in spiritual darkness.
Note: There is no evidence that anyone has prayed for God's judgment to fall on anyone.
I pray for God's mercy, period.
Do you pray to God and ask him to show mercy to gay and lesbian people, maranatha? Even to unrepentant ones? Or do you pray and tell him that He'd better wipe them all out, or else He "would owe an apology to Sodom and Gomorrah"?
That's your opinion, SportinLife. It's important to realize that the person who said that was not attempting to usurp God's place at all but was simply commenting on the consistency of His character. I believe I've already said I pray for God's mercy on our land. He says that if we humble ourselves, pray, seek His face, and turn from our wicked ways, He will hear from Heaven, will forgive our sin, and will heal our land. I am convinced it is His faithful remnant who are the reason we haven't already seen His judgment in greater measure than what's already occurred.
"...if God did not punish America, He would owe Sodom and Gomorrah an apology."
That is the quote I'm referring to. Whoever said this, and whoever believes it, does not worship God, but rather usurps His place.
The basis of our country: http://dutyisours.com/founding.htm
SportinLife, it doesn't matter how often you say it, It's simply not true. I have no desire to see God punish anyone. He says in His Word that He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. I am in 100% agreement with that.
separation, I've never claimed to be a god; I know full well I'm not God, that I was created by Him. His Word is true and will endure forever, even when this world is but a memory.
And I'll say my piece again: Some of you WANT God to punish gay and lesbian people. You insist on it. And you will be bitter and disappointed and angry if he chooses instead to show mercy.
That attitude doesn't come from Jesus, and it doesn't come from the bible. You need to ask yourselves where it comes from, understand it, and fight it. It is poisoning you, and it is threatening to poison American christianity.
separation, if you knew my friends who were homosexuals for years, were delivered from it, and have been happily married for about 20 years, parents for about 15 years, you would know it is indeed possible for people to change. That's what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about: people being delivered from sin and living a whole new life of love, peace, and joy. You might be interested in this:
http://www.venusmagazine.org/index.html
Just 'cause you quote the black book does not make you a God. Not in anyone's eyes. I hate to say that when you die you're simply dead. Nothing more. Spirituality is about what you do in life. Not what you plan on receiving after death.
separation, you have made a number of judgments. There are those of us who remember how abortion was marketed in such a way as to gloss over the true nature of it, who remember only too well how a cowardly church sat silently by while it became the law of the land. That death toll now stands at almost 50 MILLION souls, which is a staggering number.
A true Christian cannot deny the Word of God, that His Word is above all other. What He says is truth, regardless of what anyone else says. We cannot deny what He has said about immorality in any form. Jesus told us to "occupy until He returns"; part of that means speaking out FOR what is right and AGAINST what is wrong. To LOVE God is to HATE sin - not people, but sin. (Proverbs 8) God bless you, and Happy New Year!
You all sound like Larry Craig who IS a closet homosexual.
Perhaps people would prefer to speak for themselves, maranatha.
In any case, it doesn't matter who originally said it, or what they were referring to. It's an outrageous and presumptuous idea that ANYONE would put themselves in place of God and second guess his mercy.
Whoever told you that laws are based on "Christian" principles wasn't a political science major. Oh, I almost forgot, the concept of ex-gays is a myth. A real gay person is really gay. So called ex-gays are really just desperate perverts who want you to accept them so they can have sex with you.
Shakespeare said it, "doth protest too much". So what are you afraid of? A Haggardly existence? I love my girlfriend as much as you love your wife/husband. You preach hate, I live love. Christians are hypocrites and are self-proclaimed. A true Christian lives through his/her acts. You all just talk a bunch of garbage that is really your hatred of anything different from you.
iseekthetruth2, there have been cultures where murder was not only not considered to be wrong, it was considered a badge of honor to kill one's enemy - even worse, cannibalism. So many countries' laws have been affected positively by Christian faith, we don't realize what it has been like in countries that didn't.
Correction: The Bible also says that people who participate in any such sin CAN be forgiven and delivered if they repent. That is God's will.
SportinLife, at the time that quote was spoken: ""...if God does not punish America, He will owe Sodom and Gomorrah an apology", the issue was not homosexuality. That was spoken 'way back in the '60s. The issue at that time was brazen fornication and adultery, with no sense of shame. It was just addressing the normalization and acceptance of immorality in general here in America. Homosexuality was not an issue back then.
What you perceive as "obsessional attention to other people's sins" is instead a deep concern on the part of many people that our nation not incur God's wrath and judgment by calling evil good and good evil. (Isaiah 5:20) We realize that it's not only homosexuality but every form of immorality which is part of the problem. Also, I didn't see where Shanghaied "condemned gay and lesbian people". S/he simply quoted the words referenced earlier. But I should point out that God's Word does indeed call same-sex sexual relationships sin, and not only sin, but by the even stronger word of "abomination". The Bible also says that people who participate in any such sin can't be forgiven and delivered if they repent. That is God's will.
"...if God did not punish America, He would owe Sodom and Gomorrah an apology."
What are we coming to when there are "christians" so blinded by their obsessional attention to other people's sins that they openly and brazenly boast of having better moral judgment that God Himself?
One thing I'll say for you Shanghaied, at least you are honest. You are willing to say forthrightly that you condemn gay and lesbian people regardless of whether or not God does. And that you couldn't care less what God's judgment on such people really is.
I really hope that christians of good will--regardless of their views on homosexuality--will consider whether the level of attention given to this issue by some of our leaders is or is not serving to further the spiritual growth of the flock. It appears to me to be breeding a very unfortunate, and very unchristian, sense of self-satisfaction and self-righteousness in some portion of our community.
iseekthetruth2, I just realized something else. I guess the assumption is that without Christianity, we would be killing everyone in sight. If people are born into societies without Christianity, do they randomly kill their neighbors? It appears to me that Christian laws might not actually be Christian inspired rather, they just make good sense and are practical. Socities can't develop or be nutured if everyone was killing everyone else. There was a time in human history that Christianity did not exist in its current form, yet humanity still moved forward without obliterating itself.
Hi maranatha7593,
I haven't heard of Michael Glatze, but for me I don't have any desire to change the way I am. Outside of the most obvious difference between gay and straight relationships, I would like other people to describe how my gay relationship is evil or sinful: we pay bills, empty the dishwasher, plan vacations, get in arguments over where we will spend the holidays, get annoyed by each other's driving and the list goes on. Despite the one thing that everyone focuses on, our relationship doesn't look any different. If I describe my relationship to anyone and didn't tell them my partner was a man, they would assume I was straight. In this way, to me, I feel there's nothing wrong. It's this issue that has really lead me to believe that God does not exist. I just can't and won't believe that an all-powerful, all-knowing God created people and then decided on a strict code of behavior and allowing for NO exceptions or difference. Regarding the Christian laws comment, I'm not historian, but my guess is "do not kill your fellow man" was a way of living long before Christianity. Furthermore, our laws are not all Christian inspired: traffic laws, income taxes, car tabs; not everything is inspired by God.
iseekthetruth2, I should add, I have good friends (man and woman) who were both homosexual at one time, both of them in same-sex relationships for years. They were set free by the power of God about 20 years ago, have been married for about 15 years, have two beautiful children, and spend a lot of time ministering to people who are in bondage to homosexuality. Do you know who Michael Glatze is?
iseekthetruth2, the laws of this nation are based on Christian principles. A serial killer may not like our laws against murder, but nevertheless, s/he must abide by them. I'm not comparing you to a serial killer, I'm just saying that this is the bottom line.
Shanghaied, I think maybe he heard that from Ruth Graham, for she used to say that 'way back in the '60s. And how much things have changed since then!
I am not sure if it was original, but I heard John MacArthur say in a lesson that if God did not punish America, He would owe Sodom and Gomorrah an apology. Amen to that.
Hello all and Happy New Year.
I'm new to the forum and thought I would comment on the article. As a confirmed catholic and one who did a lot of personal exploration and now does not believe in God, I offer a different perspective. I believe in a country where people should have the right to decide what is best for them. Since I'm not Christian should I be governed by Christian laws? This is the beauty and "secret" of America; it's diversity and diverse opinons. I have been in a gay relationship with my partner for 4 years. Actually, the way we communicate and interact revivals and surpasses most of my straight friends' relationships. We contribute to society in so many meaningful and "normal" ways: contributing to charties, volunteering within our community, shovel the sidewalks (althought I hate this one). It's okay if other people believe that we are living in sin; what matters is that we disagree. Again, living in this great country we are allowed to disagree and choose a different path. To me, when we start dictating exactly what other people's actions should be, we will be heading down a path of oppression based on one groups ideals. Lastly, if you don't know someone that is gay, reach out to the community and get to know them. Attempt to understand the "people" behind the "homosexual" label. You can still decide that you don't agree with them, but at least we aren't all lumped together in one group. I have several very devote religious friends who I admire greatly and disagree often. Thanks for listening to my thoughts.
Hi, jhumfle, and Happy New Year! :-)
The verse you quoted is so very important in this day and age as we see the tragic truth of it unfolding every day in our culture. Thank you for reminding us of that truth.
jhumfle,
Welcome and well said :)
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
I don't understand why men love darkness rather than light. Why do the unseemly and unnatural.
"There is pleasure in sin for a season (Heb 11:25). Their happiness right now will one day change."
star2, I saw a secular article recently which reported that studies show that most 'gay' relationships only last an average of 6 months.
Hi, star2. Good to see you again. Happy New Year! (and to everyone else, too)
Hi, agentorange. I don't think I've "met" you before. Happy New Year! :-)
If you read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, you'll see that God promised Abraham He would spare those cities if he (Abraham) could find just 10 righteous people in them. Unfortunately, there weren't even that many, so the cities were destroyed. Even then, God spared Lot's family for Abraham's sake.
I believe this is the only reason America is still free today and/or hasn't been wiped off the map. Of whom much is given, much is required, and we've been blessed more than any other nation on the face of the earth. I believe it is only because of a faithful remnant that we've not seen utter destruction. We HAVE experienced warnings. I can only pray for God's mercy to continue.
agentorange:
Homosexuality is growing in ever increasing numbers. They are forcing their aberrant behavior on everyone. Many of the Local, State, and Federal lawmakers are refusing to stand up to them and say "NO!" to their demands, because they want their votes at the ballot box.
Sanctioning homosexuality by lawmakers and the increasing numbers who practice it will only bring the wrath of God on our nation. Have you forgotten what God did to Sodom and Gomorrha? If you think that God won't destroy this nation because of homosexuality, abortion, and the like, think twice. The Lord Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Heb 13:8)
God will bring down any nation or person who thumbs their nose in the moral face of God.
God says in His Word that He will bless a nation if it obeys His commandments and He will curse a nation if they don't. (Deu 28:1-14 for the blessings and Deu 28:15-68 for the curses)
maranatha7593,
so you think god will smite us all then for some particular individuals actions? why not just smite those that actively disobey said commandments instead of the lot of us?
If we are to assume god would smite us for this sort of behavior, why don't we follow the many other numerous commandments equally accordingly?
according to OT gays should be put to death, and not by waiting for gods wrath, but instead by our very hands. is this what you would find as resolute justice for an act that is a victimless crime?
Shall the throne of iniquity
which devises evil by law,
have fellowship with You? Psalm 94:20
Amen maranatha7593
I pray God will have mercy on our nation, that we do not get what we deserve.
Blessed is that nation whose God is the Lord.
SportinLife:
No, I would not gloat and feel righteous, nor will I feel satisfaction if their relationship ends in unhappiness.
All I am saying is that the Word of God says that the pleasure that they have in sin will one day end because their pleasure will only last for a season. God's Word never fails.
Will you feel satisfaction if some of their relationships do end in unhappiness, star2? Will you gloat and feel righteous?
There is pleasure in sin for a season (Heb 11:25). Their happiness right now will one day change.
Congratulations to the happy couples!