In his New Year’s message to of the world’s 1.2 billion Catholics Tuesday, Pope Benedict XVI reaffirmed the family as one of the most important foundations for peace in the world.
The pope expressed his support for the family in a midmorning mass on Jan. 1, traditionally celebrated within the Catholic Church as World Day of Peace. He later appeared at his window to wave to thousands of believers in St. Peter’s Square.
"The family is the first and indispensable teacher of peace," Benedict told the crowds.
Although the pope stopped short of naming specific policies, he criticized political moves in a number of countries to undermine the traditional family.
Benedict said in his New Year prayer for peace that the family was an “irreplaceable” institution and that undermining the traditional family headed by a husband and wife would undermine peace.
“Whoever, even unknowingly, circumvents the institution of the family undermines peace in the entire community,” he said.
"Everything that serves to weaken the family based on the marriage of a man and a woman... constitutes an objective obstacle on the road to peace.”
Thousands turned out for a pro-family rally in largely Catholic Spain on Sunday, during which the pope defended the family in an address via videolink.
He said: "Founded in the indissoluble union between man and woman, it is the place in which human life is sheltered and protected from its beginning until its natural end.”
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truthandjustice1,
Despite his sentiments on Protestantism; his observations of church history does not support your claims. It is funny how you love to change the subject.
O4H, I love how you pick and choose things. Johann Joseph Ignaz von Dollinger hated protestantism. His works on The Reformation (3 vols. Regensburg, 1846-1848) and on Luther (1851, Eng, tr., 1853) is very severe on the Protestant leaders. it's laughable that you would mention a person who hated protestanism to justify your point. Yes, he was excommunicated at one point, but he still loved the Church. He REFUSED to join a movement wanting to form a schism, you protestants could learn a lot from him and I'm glad you brought him up.
Prophet,
Yes, however, I am discussing these same issues with someone else on th "Rome" in the Roman Catholic article.
Is he gone again?
Matthew 16 does not, in fact, even imply papal primacy.
The passage says absolutely nothing about successors to Peter, and the unanimous consent of the Fathers actually opposes the Roman Catholic interpretation of Mt 16. The Fathers generally interpret the ‘rock’ in Matthew 16 to be Christ or Peter’s confession of faith in Christ. Some of the Fathers do refer to Peter as the rock but only in the sense of that he is the first to confess Christ to be the Son of God and is therefore representative of the entire Church. The Church is therefore built, not on Peter (or subsequently on the bishops of Rome), but on his confession of faith in the person of Christ. His confession points to Christ. The Fathers of the early centuries are not supporters of the Roman Catholic interpretation of Mt. 16:18 as proposed by Vatican One. Interestingly, it is the Protestant and Eastern Orthodox interpretation which is endorsed by the Fathers of the early church. This is affirmed by Johann Joseph Ignaz von Dollinger, the most renowned Roman Catholic historian of the 19th century who taught Church history as a Roman Catholic for 47 years.
Von Dollinger states: ‘Of all the Fathers who interpret these passages in the Gospels (Matt 16:18, John 21:17), not a single one applies them to the Roman bishops as Peter’s successors. How many Fathers have busied themselves with these texts, yet not one of them whose commentaries we possess-Origen, Chrysostom, Hilary, Augustine, Cyril, Theodoret, and those whose interpretations are collected in catenas-has dropped the faintest hint that the primacy of Rome is the consequence of the commission and promise to Peter! Not one of them has explained the rock or foundation on which Christ would build His Church of the office given to Peter to be transmitted to his successors, but they understood by it either Christ Himself, or Peter’s confession of faith in Christ; often both together. Or else they thought Peter was the foundation equally with all the other Apostles, the twelve being together the foundation-stones of the Church (Revelation xxi. 14). The Fathers could the less recognize in the power of the keys, and the power of binding and loosing, any special prerogative or lordship of the Roman bishop, inasmuch as-what is obvious to anyone at first sight-they did not regard a power first given to Peter, and afterwards conferred in precisely the same words on all the Apostles, as anything peculiar to him, or hereditary in the line of Roman bishops, and they held the symbol of the keys as meaning just the same as the figurative expression of binding and loosing’ (The Pope and the Council (Boston: Roberts, 1869), p. 74).
thelordismylight,
Then what does YOUR Bible mean when it calls satan the god of this world?
thelordismylight,
Is it here in this article or the other article? Which point are you referring to? Just re-post here again.
OMG DUDE! In The 'Roman' in Roman Catholic I made bible references that challenged your faith altogether!
tliml,
Which one? The Muslim girl anology or something else?
Your first one: The faith will be COUNTED, but it does not say that it alone can get you into heaven. The same idea is repeated throught the others.
I am addressing them: Sure fine, k. My point is this: To be Christ like you have to be like Christ. All I am saying. Now PLEASE address mine, I have to leave soon.
Prophet,
How are you?
Hey, Online.
Prophet,
Hello.
tliml,
It is God's will that all be saved, that is why Jesus hasn't returned yet. He is waiting for the Gospel to be preached to ALL the world.
thelordismylight,
Then what does YOUR Bible mean when it calls satan the god of this world?
Thelordismylight,
You don’t “see” these passages; if you did you would understand what they mean. What are these verses saying? I will answer your Muslim girl analogy with a sound response after you comment on these passages :)
I'm almost sure that God would dump a lazy person that did not do anything to help anyone else before he would let a kind and good person go to hell even though they never sinned or did any wrong to anyone.
Yes, I see those passages. But... say you get into heaven and then there is this poor muslim girl that wasn't even EXPOSED to Christianity and couldn't have known... she is nice to everyone and kind and good, helps her neighbors, and tries to give the elderly a hand... She is going to hell? That is kind of hearltess...
thelordismylight,
Your constant unwillingness to accept or address these bible passages demonstrates that you reject God's word for your traditions.
Oh and I posted some interesting things on "Myths Exposed on Charismatic Christianity in America"
Online4Him-
Well, doesn't it make sense that to be Christ-like you have to be like Christ? Ya. Christ did works. So to be like Him you must do works...
tliml,
I thank God that Jesus and the disciples never said, "We figure" but always used a "thus saith the Lord" to demonstrate truth. To say, "none” (no scriptural passages) to support your assumption that Salvation is acquired by works, is extremely disappointing. Why not take God at his word instead of coming up with your own personal opinion which is subjective? Hmmmmm. . . Accept your opinion or take God at his word; I will choose the latter. What do these verses mean?
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16.
The Scriptures teach that salvation is a GIFT, we cannot earn a gift – Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8, 9. Again the Bible teaches that there is no merit to be earned or gained by our works. These two views are polar opposites.
Prophet-
Satan is only god of evil, what is good belongs to God.
Online4Him-
None, however we see that Christ did works. Christ helped people. We want to be christ-like. Since Christ found time to cure people and help them, we figure that we should as well... that is unless you think that Christ just sat around all day and said "Believe in Me" If he did, then you would be the most Christ-like people on Earth. But no. Sadly for you, Christ was NOT lazy, Christ DID help people, and Christ DID do works, so to be Christ-like WE must do works. Logical, no?
tliml,
When you get the chance; where are your passages that Salvation is acquired by works?
Well, not "word for word", but you get the picture.
Now, I've been debating TLIML and TAJ for some time about the fact that satan is the god of this world. They believe that he's not. I've used the scripture from 2nd Corinthians 4:3-4 which says:
"3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
TLIML response is that our Bible has been translated and retranslated for the Protestant Bible, and that the scripture is incorrect.
So, I decided to consult the Catholic Holy BIble. Guess what? It says in 2nd Corinthians 4:3-4:
"3 And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost,
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them."
Wow! Word of word.
So all this ranting and raving that TLIML does about how the Catholic Bible is so much different from the Protestant (and there are many differences, I will admit) is blown out of proportion.
According to the Catholic Bible, satan is the god of this world.
And, I seriously doubt (literally) that TLIML reads the Bible, much less actually studies it. Otherwise, he would not have stuck his foot in his mouth.
And I have to go now. Please do not crucify me for it. Or maybe you believe more in "burning at the stake" for all you Jehovahs out there ;)
Is it really christ-like to not believe people when they say "I have to go"? I would believe you...
:( You just keep saying "Oh he is dodging" sometimes I have to sleep :)
Oh and I am going to say EXTRA Hail Mary's on the rosary, JUST for you, I know how much you LOVE them!
Prophet-
How are you in Christ when you INSIST that Satan rules this world as the god of it? Strange. I am still saying the rosary for you.
Maranatha-
lol, hearing doesn't necessarily mean the bible, and it doesn't say "The word of the scriptures is the only way to God" all you have given me is "Faith coming by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." Which does not at ALL answer what I asked :)
Jester and Online4Him-
My child cracked his head open. I am sorry that my personal life had to interfere with this argument. Forgive me for being SO rude! And you are perfectly correct to criticize me for leaving when I have to, I mean OF COURSE it is TOTALLY your business to correct me! Please remember that my life does not revolve around this forum or you, despite what you might think.
Online4Him, it is a recurring scenerio for several reasons. A: I have a life that demands my full attention, it seems that YOU can find time to be on this site about 9 hours a day or even more from what I have seen. B: I have a job, a good job that I like. C: I have kids. D: I have a bad connection. E: If a friend invites me to go bowling I sure as heck will, I am not going to say "Oh sorry buddy, I have to argue with some protestants" PLEASE do not think that my debating with you has presidence over my friends. It is quite foolish of you to say "He decides to leave without answering my questions" If I have to go I HAVE TO GO.
tliml: "Where in the bible does it say "The bible is the only way to faith"?
The Bible says, "Faith coming by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
Without the Bible, there is no faith. Period. His Word is the standard by which we measure all things.
Prophet,
Well, I have to get up early in the morning; so talk to you later and God bless :)
Prophet,
Yeah, it is disturbing; much prayer.
Yeah, I dont know what's up with that. It's rather disturbing.
Prophet,
Amen; I also spoke to him about the same topic and he twisted everything around. Bottom line; he does not accept scripture.
The other day I was trying to explain to him about the god of this world argument. He wouldn't listen. He just kept calling us satanist and such, and then ran out the door. Fortunately, there is no condemnation to them who are in Christ. His opinion of me means nothing. I seek only the approval of God. Which, thankfully, I have.
jester,
That is a good one; I asked him for scriptural proof for his assumption that Salvation is by works. He did not answer but asked me for scriptural proof regarding Salvation by faith; which I obliged, then poof he disappeared.
The Phantom Menace? Just kidding. I think he's just trying to aggrevate us to the point where we'll leave. There is no other reason behind his actions.
so i noticed. he throws his insults around, hiding from the questions and the disappears like a phantom...
Maybe that should be his screen name...phantom
Prophet & Jester,
It seems everytime we begin to discuss a topic with tliml, he decides to leave without answering any questions. This is becoming a reacurring scenario :(
Well, Jester. He keeps arguing that Protestants used the Bible to justify slavery, I thought maybe I would remind him of his beloved Catholic heritage. I'm waiting to see his reply. Probably something biting and rude.
hey online...
but, proph, i do like your approach!
Hey, Online! Another session of listening to tliml argue like a 5 year old. Maybe someday we can get a Catholic on here who is actually a Christian.
Jester,
Hello.
proph,
ouch! are you trying my style of warfare now? that's not you! lol
Hey Prophet :)
light,
Well, at least we didn't do the crusades...
Justify that.
thelordismylight,
Now where are your passages that Salvation is acquired by works?
Actually I have to go. Terribly sorry, bye.
While you good practitioners... er, I mean Protestants, think that over I will get something to drink.
tliml,
Listen to the following passages:
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16.
The Scriptures teach that salvation is a GIFT, we cannot earn a gift – Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8, 9. Again the Bible teaches that there is no merit to be earned or gained by our works. These two views are polar opposites.
I mean... slavery is in the bible... right? So you guys are totally down with it... right? Just adjust that minimum wage to $0.00 and you can start planting cotton again!
Online4Him-
What do you think about slavery? Just a little, right?
Where in the bible does it say "The bible is the only way to faith"?
thelordismylight,
Where is your biblical support that Salvation is acquired by works?
So, Prophet, I gather that you think slavery was justified, correct?
Online4Him,
How is one saved? "Through believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for us and that He was the Messiah" And? "Uhhhh, what do you mean?" Well, ya know, shouldn't you like... help people? "... uhhh we have potluck night at Protestant churches... and... and macarony... mmmmm cheese"
Oh sorry, I did not see you post that before, Online4Him.
I must have told you this MANY MANY TIMES!
EVERYONE LISTEN!!!!!! THIS IS THE LAST TIME I AM REPEATING MYSELF!!!
A PERSON IS SAVED THROUH BELIEF AND ACTS OF GOOD SERVICE AND GOOD COUNCIL WITH A LOVE FOR JESUS!! This is going to take a LONG time if you keep asking me the same things over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
Prophet-
Obviously we did not encourage slavery because a Catholic could be excommunicated for OWNING one. The bible itself did not encourage it, cotton planters who enjoyed twisting the bible did.
thelordismylight,
How is one saved?
Read it again, it is not as simple as that.
Ummm yea. He has to believe TOO, but one good deed with alot of love for Jesus is better than a million with no love for Jesus. It is also better than no good deed, as you believe you can still get into heaven
So, they used your Bible too to encourage slavery....unless, of course, you removed such offending scriptures from your Bible...
I mean... the KKK wasn't founded on CATHOLICISM was it? Methinks it is time to play the blame-game lol.
Oh, ok. One good deed. Well, then what's the argument? Everyone does a good deed from time to time. Even the heathens do. So, by default, simply following Romans 10:9-10 will get you to heaven, because at some point in your life you will do a good deed or two.
Nope, but Catholics were not allowed to be slave owners in all, but a very few parts of the states. Protestants encouraged it.
I mean one good deed with great love for Jesus can't sound as outrageous as none? This is what you believe, correct?
light,
And I'm sure the Catholic version of the Bible took out all references to slavery.
thelordismylight,
How is one saved?
Ummm yea. He has to believe TOO, but one good deed with alot of love for Jesus is better than a million with no love for Jesus. It is also better than no good deed, as you believe you can still get into heaven.
Oh, ok. So if someone does one good deed his whole life, but he really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really loves God, then he's saved?
Prophet-
Listen carefully. It is not measured in quantity, but in how much love of Jesus you put into it. God decides. K? When being good you compare yourself with Jesus, but you are not expected to be JUST like him, however that is who you are compared to. K?
light,
Why do you take what Jester said and turn it around? It doesn't change the truth he spoke. I've talked with you for some time now, and have rarely ever gotten a well thought out, Biblical answer from you. All you throw at me, Online4Him, and Jester is throwing our words back in our face (like that works) and insulting us.
Can you please just answer a question maturely? Why do you get so defensive and angry when we ask you questions? But I think the reason why, is because you want to annoy us into leaving. Which is not very Christian.
Prophet-
Listen carefully. It is not measured in quantity, but in how much love of Jesus you put into it. God decides. K? When being good you compare yourself with Jesus, but you are not expected to be JUST like him, however that is who you are compared to. K?
tliml,
There is no need to instigate anything; the truth of God's Word condemns all unbiblical teachings and practices :)
Hey: Does this li'l ditty sound familiar to you guys?
"Ooohhhh ooohhh we shall raiiiin the fires of Hell,
To rid our eeearth of this horrid spell.
Oooohhh ohhh ohhh ohh.
We have seen what the loord can dooo,
We shall purge the lands and make them new.
Oooohh ohhh ohh ohh
With the fiery cross in our hands,
We will wipe out evil across the laaands,
OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH
"Brothers! I have called upon you in this sacred ritual of purging to remind us of our culture and heritage. These people are invading our country and TAKING away OUR heritage! What about the darkies? Is THAT our heritage? (No It's not!) What about the tzitsies? [Is] That our heritage? (No It's not!) What about the papals? THAT our heritage? (No It's not!) So we shall lynch this demon and send him on his way to hell!" -John Waltz, KKK Grandmaster during the lynching of a Catholic. They justified it with the bible. You guys in the KKK? I you live way down south you might be.
light,
You didn't answer my questions?
But how good do you have to be? What's the cut off line? Or is it works? How much works? One good deed a year? a month? what's the quota and who sets it? when "being good" who are you comparing yurself with? God? then we're all going to hell. satan? then we're all going to heaven. what is good? people put different values on what is good and right. and most people in the world could justify their acceptance into heaven based on works and "being a good person".
If the KJ bible is so wonderful... how come it was used to justify slavery? :'(
lol... YOU... calling US pharisees... LOL. Your entire FAITH is FOUNDED on PROTESTING (a.k.a. whining, complaining, quibbling, and squirming) which is EXACTLY what the Pharisees did! LOL! omgosh I just thought of that... lol oh that is great... whew, I have to remember that whenever a protestant brings up "Oh you people are oppressin the progressin like the pharisees..."
Jester-
I enjoyed your apathetic speech. Is it really US that are the pharisees when you are the ones that are constantly accusing us of false doctrine. I mean when I look back to the first posts I can see very clearly that Online4Him instigated the entire thing by criticizing the pope and the church... ARE we the pharisees? Us? The ones who are DEFENDING our faith? From YOU? The ones criticizing it? And yes, we do acts because we love God, and through acts we SHOW our love for him.
Prophet-
God decides how much love you give him through your service. If you do it "Just to do it" then you get nothing. What you people do not get about service is that it is just any good act done with love for Christ. Big or small. I bet you do them every day. Ya know how you pick up someone's pencil for them? Service. Ya know how you walk a neighbor's dog? Service. Ya know how you help little girls to believe in Santa Claus and to have faith in goodness? Miracle on 34th Street.
tliml,
Welcome to the new covenant. feel free to exit the old testament anytime you feel like. you really don't have to stay in bondage anymore, you know?
Proph,
i've always wondered how the pharisees were when Jesus walked this earth. i see tliml and taj, and see exactly how they were. they heap bondage upon God's children to prove their superiority and piousness. they're full of pride for the works they do. so proud and arrongant. but God resists the proud. they are so busy trying to do works to get to heaven that they don't realize why they should be doing works to begin with. not to get to heaven, but because they love God and they love people (especially the lost). but i do not find that in tliml and taj conversation.
light,
You didn't answer my questions?
But how good do you have to be? What's the cut off line? Or is it works? How much works? One good deed a year? a month? what's the quota and who sets it? when "being good" who are you comparing yurself with? God? then we're all going to hell. satan? then we're all going to heaven. what is good? people put different values on what is good and right. and most people in the world could justify their acceptance into heaven based on works and "being a good person".
Prophet-
Obviously it is God who decides how much love you gave when you were living. Yes then, Hitler is definitely going to heaven then. MY GOSH! THIS is why there are so FEW OF YOU! People think "Hmm, doesn't it seem a bit too good to be true that I can sit on my butt my whole life and go to heaven... maybe this "helping people" idea has something there..." GOD FORBID WE ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE!!! You justify NOT helping people and "Oh I can be evil as long as I believe" with the BIBLE! What is the world coming to?! The Templars killed people in the name of God, I have heard you or maybe it was Online4Him say that what they did was wrong even though it was in the name of God, however what you are saying goes completely against that. What about sitting there and doing NOTHING in the name of God? You DO believe though, theoretically, that a man could believe in Jesus, his death for us, blah blah blah and then kill two-thousand people and still get to heaven? What if he killed you? Wouldn't you be a little bit upset if the man who killed you and thousands of others got into heaven?
And who's to say whether Hitler went to heaven or not? Only God. does believing in Jesus (as in believing that He existed) get you to heaven? no. but believing (as in believing that He is the only Son of God, and that He died for our sins and rose again, and accepting that truth) in Jesus will.
"If you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart a man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth the confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10
And hopefully, works will follow. But I thank God that I do works because I love God, not because I'm in bondage to the law and HAVE to do them. That is the difference between a carnal Christian and a spiritual Christian. Carnal Christians do things because they "have to". They're under bondage to the law. Spiritual Christians do things because they love God with all their heart, and want to be pleasing to Him.
Obligation=carnality. Love=spiritual.
Carnality=condemnation. Spiritual=freedom, grace, and mercy.
traditions=carnality. true worship=spirituality.
carnality=bondage. spirituality=deepr walk with, and understanding of, God.
And so, RCC thinks that by being good, you can go to heaven. But how good do you have to be? What's the cut off line? Or is it works? How much works? One good deed a year? a month? what's the quota and who sets it? when "being good" who are you comparing yurself with? God? then we're all going to hell. satan? then we're all going to heaven. what is good? people put different values on what is good and right. and most people in the world could justify their acceptance into heaven based on works and "being a good person".
but RCC can't answer that, because it is totally absurd.
LOL and to think that Martin Luther condemned paying to get into heaven and then he created a religion where you could do NOTHING and get into heaven! LOL!
I love the fact the protties think that just by saying "I DO believe in God, I DO believe in God" like the little children in Peter Pan when they are trying to believe in fairies, they will be saved. The little children died a horrible, painful death... Ok well maybe not, but just SAYING you believe doesn't mean anything. I bet God will let in a good, kind muslim who did not KNOW BETTER to believe, than a Christian who believed and then sat on his butt his entire life, only getting up to be mean and unkind to people. Of course, you Jester, apparantly think that this good muslim who couldn't have known better to believe will go to hell where this horrible, awful Christian will go to heaven. Just sad.
Jester, you said "being good doesnt get you to heaven." and that "there is only one way to heaven, believing in Christ" well then I guess you will see Hitler in heaven because he believed in Christ.
Calling it a night; will talk to ya all later, Lord willing :)
jester,
God answers prayers :)
correction: we must pray for them :)
me too
jester,
Amen, I have been and will continue to pray for them :)
yes,
"Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 18:18-19
jester,
This is true; we pray for them :)
yeah i know. but it will take a work of the Holy Spirit to do so.
jester,
It can happen :)
amen.
jester,
I pray that they spend some time in private bible study and allow it to speak to thier hearts.
if they're anything like they are on here, i wonder about his relationship with God.
jester,
I know; actually igit changed his user name and has become tliml. Some of his comments are interesting.
jester,
No, it was on the other article that you were just on; I think it was about the vatican and muslims meeting.
here on this post?
that seems to be their mo. taj, tliml,and igit. when it gets deep and hot, then they run. but what worries me is the comments that tliml has been making...
Jester,
Yeah, I was talking to taj but then he left?????
i think he's jumping around, trying to avoid the Bible....because from what he's been saying, Jesus isn't the way to heaven....
thelordismylight,
Welcome back; I thought you had to leave?
being good doesnt get you to heaven. there's only one way to heaven....through the Lord Jesus Christ...not mohammed.
but apparently, from what you've said, you have trashed the work of the Cross.
Jester-
I believe that if you live your life in a good way, living God's words and acting good, like the muslims try to do, then there is a place in heaven for you. You accused the pope of excluding other religions when he said "Our way is the True Faith" and yet here you are, condemning all muslims to Hell. I was under the impression that it was Christ's right to judge. I know that the Muslims believe that God has power over the devil...
Jester,
Wow; I will have to ask him how he thinks that happens.
i just saw tliml on "Vatican Announces 'Historic' Catholic-Muslim Meeting for Spring" claiming that Muslims may be going to heaven. thats scary.
jester,
That sounds good; I will have to check it out.
i just visited that new article "Myths Exposed on Charismatic Christianity in America". Wow! it said " And nearly one-quarter of all charismatics in the U.S. (22 percent) are Catholics." I hope tliml, taj, and igit don't read that.
but im sure they'll end up over there soon enough.
jester,
Praise God! My thoughts are the same; man, it is good to fellowship with like minded believers.
jester,
We all have got a long way to go, but with His strength and guidance, we'll make it to the end.
Do not feel like the lone ranger; we are all in the same boat but praise God that HE is the one behind the helm.
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: - Philippians 1:6
and i dont care what church name hangs above the door of your churches. you are my brothers. and i appreciate you.
thank you both for your encouragement. it really does means a lot. i've got a long way to go, but with His strength and guidance, I'll make it.
to the end.
Jester,
Hey, that is awesome. Praise God; it is the Lord himself that transforms man from the inside out.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezekiel 36:26,27.
Amen, Jester! "Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind". What you start putting into your mind is what will begin to transpire. If you put Bible study and a strong prayer life into your mind, you will see even more transformations happen. You keep going!
hey guys. i've been praying and studying. God did a transformation in my life, now I am trying not to fall back into that pit. just like you told me, Proph. the battle is not to cease from sinning. that is a battle we cannot win. our battle is to draw closer to God, and as we draw closer to his glory, sin cannot abide and will be stripped away.
Jester,
It is good to hear from you.
Hey Jester! It's good to see you! What's been goin on?
Jester,
Yes HE is :)
God is so good, online. he is so awesome!
jester,
Well said!
Praise to Jesus, the only true way to salvation. Praise to God, the only one whom I call father. Praise to Jesus, the only one who hears my prayers and answers them. Praise to Jesus, the only one who intercedes for me. Praise the Word, which is true and eternal. Thank you, Holy Spirit, for leading me into all truths. Thank you, Lord, for keeping me from the snares of traditions of man. For you have made me free from the bondage of that law. I am free in your Spirit. I am no longer bound to man-made religion. I am bound by love to my eternal heavenly Father.
thelordismylight,
All of these here are CONTRARY to scripture:
593-Purgatory, 754-Temporal Power, 847-Decretals of Isidore (a forgery), 858-Donation of Constantine (another forgery), 1075-Greatest mass divorce in history forced upon clergy by Gregory VII, 1100-Money for Masses, 1184-Inquisition, 1190-Sale of Indulgences, 1215-Transubstantiation, 1226-Adoration of Host, 1303-Papal Bull Unam Sanctam, 1415-Cup denied to laymen by the Council of Constance, 1545-Council of Trent-Rome turns finally from authority of God’s Word to authority of tradition. Tradition made equal in authority to Bible. Justification by faith condemned, 1600-The invention of Scapulars, 1854-Immaculate Conception, 1864-Seperation of Church and State Condemned, 1870-Papal Infallibility, 1908-Papal decree invalidating mixed marriages not performed by a Roman priest, 1950-Assumption of Mary.
thelordismylight,
Why can't you tell me what that passage means? It is obvious that you do not accept scripture; I gave you biblical passages regarding the fallacy of the Immaculate Conception and you do not accept them.
All the points you have brought up about that are not CONTRARY, rather they are something that the bible does not clearly come out and say. We inferred immaculate conception because Jesus had no blemish so Mary must have been pure. You have not brought up any case in which the Pope DIRECTLY went against something that was IN the scripture.
thelordismylight,
If the pope speaks contrary to scripture; it is not the Holy Spirit that speaks through him.
Yes, long live the Holy Spirit, who speaks through the Pope!
thelordismylight,
Yes, long live the vicar of Christ - the "HOLY SPIRIT"!
Long live The Vicar of Christ!
Que Viva!
I have no doubt what Pope Benedict XVI said when he reaffirmed the family as one of the most important foundations for peace in the world. Those who call themselves wise and practice homosexuality and extra marital sex must be ashamed. That cetainly destroys family. Long live Pope Benedict XVI.
Hullo? Anyone?
Well, I am calling it a night; talk to you all later :)
Truthandjustice1,
firefox - what's that?
wilderness, do you think you are like him?
truthandjustice1,
Amen; you said it, we have to stay close to him. Much prayer!
The site keeps opening firefox
wilderness,
Amen; I think that will be such a surreal moment!!!!!!!
yes, that is why we have to keep close to God. We will eventually go home, please God
truthandjustice1,
Man; was that some heavy stuff or what?
wilderness, do you think you are like him?
Online4Him:
The day will come when we will drink the fruit of the vine with our Lord in heaven. What a day that will be.
yes, it was excellent
truthandjustice1,
Welcome back; did you ever get a chance to see that video clip?
You remind me of him
wilderness,
Well said. Praise God! :)
Online4Him:
Yes. ONCE. Praise the Lord.
Remembrance is an operation of the mind which is involved in recalling a thing or fact.
wilderness,
you like Samuel F. B. Morse?
wilderness,
I agree; to have a repetitive daily sacrifice ignores the fact that Jesus died only ONCE for our sins.
Remembrance would be a spiritual act, would you agree?
wilderness,
It is; Jesus said, "Do this in Remembrance of me", the mass is not the actual flesh and blood of Jesus.
Don't you think that eating the flesh and drinking the blood of someone is mostly found in pagan practices?
wilderness,
Well said.
wilderness,
Amen, when the scriptures are taken in their context, we see that 1) the Lord does not allow us to eat blood. 2) their view contradicts the rest of the New Testament regarding how many times Jesus gave his life for our sins - ONLY ONCE.
Notice how if the blood of the sin offering was used to reconcile, they were not allowed to eat the sin offering? They could only eat the sin offering if the blood was not used to reconcile.
I also shared these passages which clearly say that we do not need a repetitive bloodless daily sacrifice:
For in that he died, he died unto sin ONCE: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God - Romans 6:10.
For Christ also hath ONCE suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: - 1Peter 3:18.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE for all - Hebrews 10:10.
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission - Hebrews 9:22.
Lev 6:30 And no sin offering, whereof any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of the congregation to reconcile withal in the holy place, shall be eaten: it shall be burnt in the fire.
Lev 10:17 Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD? Lev 10:18 Behold, the blood of it was not brought in within the holy place: ye should indeed have eaten it in the holy place, as I commanded.
wilderness,
No, but that should have been included; I did share 1Corinthians 11:24, 25 where Jesus says, do this in remembrance of me.
When you were talking about drinking the blood of Christ, was this scripture brought up?
Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Mt 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
wilderness,
Yes, it is really two books in one; but it is very good.
No. Is it good also?
wilderness,
What about the book, "Christ & Anti-christ" by Rev. Samuel J. Cassels?
wilderness,
That sounds good; I have not read that one.
I even came across a free book: "Popish literary blunders exposed." I haven't read it yet.
correction:
"blood"
That was it, thanks; it seems that they claim that the bread actually has the wine or blodd in it as well; interesting.
http://www.dailycatholic.org/history/16ecume2.htm
Scroll to session 13. I believe this is what you were talking about concering the cup and laity earlier.
Oh, ok. That is a great read :)
I have it up in text format right now.
Chech out this site: http://www.historicist.com/
That book that I asked you about is by H. Grattan Guinness
You can't beat that; free :)
Lol, it has been raining all day here.
Have you come across the book, "Romanism and the Reformation"?
wilderness,
Yes, I have it :)
How is the weather there?
Looks good; everything free :)
Cool, I am looking at it right now :)
No, are they good?
I am doing well.
wilderness,
Hello.
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
thelordismylight,
Ok, see ya later :)
thelordismylight,
Jesus did not give a mystical body as your church teaches but said:
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 1Corinthians 11:24, 25.
And I have to go as well. Bye. Seriously have to go.
-Jesus is not dying when he gives us his body and blood. Was he dying when he gave it to the apostles?
-Same answer.
-Same answer.
truthandjustice1,
Before ya go; did you check out that video clip?
thelordismylight,
By your response: lol
Does this mean you do not know what these verses mean?
Sorry in context the LITERAL interpretation makes more sense. My computer is acting funky on this site...have to check it out...bye.
truthandjustice1,
Read my last post; what do these verses mean?
lol
thelordismylight,
What do these verse mean? We do not need a repetitive bloodless daily sacrifice:
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God - Romans 6:10.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: - 1Peter 3:18.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all - Hebrews 10:10.
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission - Hebrews 9:22.
Keep reading...
But he knew some did not believe. (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) "After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him" (John 6:66).
taj,
When you read this passage in its CONTEXT this what Jesus said:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life - John 6: 63.
Your veiw contradicts the rest of scripture.
Your view contradicts Jesus himself. Jesus was being LITERAL!
thelordismylight,
Read my last post please; your veiw contradicts the rest of the New Testament.
Once again you REFUSE to accept what Jesus stated literally:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him"
Ugh. Online4Him-
Jesus' words trump everything. Sheesh.
truthandjustice1,
I have read what Jesus said about it; When we take your view of this passage, it actually contradicts the rest of scripture. When you take the CONTEXT of this passage with the rest of scripture; there are not contradictions.
Though this one verse does appear to teach transubstantiation, if you read the entire passage in context, the meaning becomes clear. Right before making that statement, Jesus said:
"... For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." John 6:33-35
This teaching is consistent with the rest of Scripture. Eternal life comes through believing in Jesus Christ, not eating His body. The Lord goes on to further clarify:
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life..." John 6:40
Again, Jesus points out that eternal life comes through believing in Him. When the Lord's disciples murmured at His words, Jesus explained:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63
Jesus was talking spiritually, not physically. He was explaining that spiritually, all life comes through faith in Him, not eating His body.
Nowhere else in the Bible does God endorse transubstantiation. In fact, God forbids the practice:
"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." Genesis 9:4
"... No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood." Leviticus
Why don't you read what JESUS stated about it!
thelordismylight,
I will accept that as an honest mistake :)
This is the only record we have of any of Christ's followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons. If it had all been a misunderstanding, if they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn't he call them back and straighten things out? Both the Jews, who were suspicious of him, and his disciples, who had accepted everything up to this point, would have remained with him had he said he was speaking only symbolically.
But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have "to eat my flesh and drink my blood." John 6 was an extended promise of what would be instituted at the Last Supper—and it was a promise that could not be more explicit. Thus, the importance of the Eucharist for a Catholic.
Taj,
Why does your church perform repetitive bloodless sacrifices when the New Testament says that JESUS died ONCE for our sins?
In John 6:60 we read: "Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, 'This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?'" These were his disciples, people used to his remarkable ways. He warned them not to think carnally, but spiritually: "It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" (John 6:63; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12–14).
But he knew some did not believe. (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) "After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him" (John 6:66).
Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct "misunderstandings," for there were none. Our Lord's listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically. If they had, if they mistook what he said, why no correction?
On other occasions when there was confusion, Christ explained just what he meant (cf. Matt. 16:5–12). Here, where any misunderstanding would be fatal, there was no effort by Jesus to correct. Instead, he repeated himself for greater emphasis.
I read it and you thought, like the Jews, that he was speaking metaphorically but he WASN'T. The Jews also wanted to see if it was metaphorically and he corrected them and explained he was being literal. It is at this point that a lot of his followers and supporters left him...JESUS wasn't speaking metaphorically
Online4Him-
Sorry, flagged the wrong one. I saw my mistake and accidentally flagged YOURS, sorry.
truthandjustice1,
Welcome; go back and read my posts; I do not think you want me to re-post everything again.
hmmm...should I choose your verses or what Jesus literally said?? tough choice lol
thelordismylight,
Yeah, I am not questioning your motives but the bible clearly says that Christ died ONCE for our sins and without the shedding of blood; there is not forgivness. So, we do not need a repetitive bloodless sacrifice:
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God - Romans 6:10.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: - 1Peter 3:18.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all - Hebrews 10:10.
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission - Hebrews 9:22.
Yay, reinforcements lol.
Is that too literal for you???
Jesus first repeated what he said, then summarized: "'I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.' The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, 'How can this man give us his flesh to eat?'" (John 6:51–52).
His listeners were stupefied because now they understood Jesus literally—and correctly. He again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53–56).
John 6:30 begins a colloquy that took place in the synagogue at Capernaum. The Jews asked Jesus what sign he could perform so that they might believe in him. As a challenge, they noted that "our ancestors ate manna in the desert." Could Jesus top that? He told them the real bread from heaven comes from the Father. "Give us this bread always," they said. Jesus replied, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst." At this point the Jews understood him to be speaking metaphorically, but we know he wasn't :)
No, we do that not so we are saved again, we do it to strengthen our relationship with Jesus.
correction:
it says over and over again "THAT" Jesus died ONCE for our sins. We do not need a repetitive bloodless, DAILY sacrifice.
thelordismylight,
It is true that we take a literal approach to the bible; however, the key to reading anything is: CONTEXT. My last posting explained the EAT my body and DRINK my blood. Plus when you take a look at the entire book of Hebrews; it says over and over again the Jesus died ONCE for our sins. We do not need a repetitive bloodless, DAILY sacrifice.
thelordismylight,
Hmmmmm. . . . . . did you just reply without reading my post? That response was kinda quick there pal. . . . .lol
Online4Him-
LOL, you still cannot deny that JESUS SAID THAT IT WAS HIS BODY AND BLOOD, you people take EVERYTHING literally EXCEPT for that part, how ironic.
thelordismylight,
Lol - that was a good one; I really don't know :) - lol
continued:
God would never command His children to do something He had already forbidden. He also states, “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission” – Hebrews 9:22. The Mass is a repetitive bloodless sacrifice that is not supported by scripture and again, Christ died ONCE for the sins of the world.
The Biblical purpose
Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 11 shed even more light on this matter:
"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:23-24
When Jesus said, "Take, eat: this is my body," He was not suggesting that they reach out and begin eating His literal body. To even suggest such is ridiculous. He was speaking spiritually about what He was about to accomplish on the cross.
Notice how that verse ends: "...this do in remembrance of me." Observing the Lord's Supper is a remembrance of Christ's work at Calvary, not a reenactment. The same is true of Christ's blood:
"After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:25
Jesus Himself taught the same lesson to his disciples at the Last Supper:
"And he (Jesus) took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me." Luke 22:19
Ummm even before either of the Vaticans I know people could recieve, I mean I could always drink it. Maybe it was just your parish. Or maybe they just didn't think you could handle the communion wine :) lol
Though this one verse does appear to teach transubstantiation, if you read the entire passage in context, the meaning becomes clear. Right before making that statement, Jesus said:
"... For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." John 6:33-35
This teaching is consistent with the rest of Scripture. Eternal life comes through believing in Jesus Christ, not eating His body. The Lord goes on to further clarify:
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life..." John 6:40
Again, Jesus points out that eternal life comes through believing in Him. When the Lord's disciples murmured at His words, Jesus explained:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63
Jesus was talking spiritually, not physically. He was explaining that spiritually, all life comes through faith in Him, not eating His body.
Nowhere else in the Bible does God endorse transubstantiation. In fact, God forbids the practice:
"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." Genesis 9:4
"... No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood." Leviticus 17:12
thelordismylight,
Oh, this must be something new because all the years that I was a catholic; I never witnessed or experienced this.
Ummmm huh? I drink out of the cup and I am lay... you are mistaken...
thelordismylight,
This is not a trick question; I am just curious as to why the church does not give the cup to the laymen.
thelordismylight,
Before we begin this discussion on the Lord's Supper; why does your church refuse to give the cup to the laymen (rest of the church)?
It is strange that you ask us why we draw conclusions from things that are in the bible, when you completely DENY what Jesus SAID.
And yet YOU people deny that... why?
The bible DOES say: Jesus said "This IS my body, eat it..." and "This IS my blood, drink it..."
thelordismylight,
"But that is our evidence from the bible." Well, with all due respect, the bible does not say anything about it.
It says Jesus was without blemish. So we believe that Mary must have been pure. If you do not believe it then fine. But that is our evidence from the bible. When I said "normal woman" I meant that she was not worried about the biblical and political correctness of what she said.
correction:
Where does it say "that" she was born without sin?
thelordismylight,
This is my point; Mary was a "normal woman." She needed a savior like the rest of us. Where does it say the she was conceived without sin?
thelordismylight,
lol - don't beat yourself up; I am sure it was an oversight or a brain freeze. I mean that in a kind way. Yeah, but why does Mary say in Luke 1:47, that she rejoiced in God her saviour? If she was without sin; she would not have made this statement. Anyway, the bible says the Jesus alone was without sin -
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin -Hebrews 4:15.
I know, I went back, could you please repaste them? As for her saying "My savior" the baby was HERS and he was the SAVIOUR, Mary was a normal woman, she wasn't going to worry whether or not she said "my saviour" or "the world's saviour" Don't hold her every word against her.
OMG how could I get that wrong omg omg omg, yes, it is how MARY WAS CONCIEVED WITH NO SIN! Oh I am ashamed. Oh my gosh. Well, we know that Jesus was born with no impurity or blemish so we believed that Mary also had to be without blemish, no original sin, no "impurities"
thelordismylight,
Click, the View all button and go back and see the list. I could repaste it here again, if you want.
thelordismylight,
Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with Mary being a virgin when she conceived, carried, and delivered Jesus. This doctrine teaches that Mary was born without sin; this is contrary to what scripture says:
Read these passages - “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” – Romans 3:23.
Mary herself says in Luke 1:47 – “And my spirit hat rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR”. Mary needed a savior just like the rest of mankind.
I do not see any listed...
Incorrect. In the bible when the Angel was speaking unto Joseph, Joseph was unaware of Mary's pregnancy which means that it could not have been him that impregnated her, also when Mary became pregnant she was only engaged, not married, and at that period if a husband thought that his wife had been unfaithful then he could have her stoned. So we assume that Mary concieved through immaculate means. Have any proof in the bible that goes against what I have said?
thelordismylight,
I have already listed catholic dogmas that are not found in scripture; you can take a look at them on the 2nd page of this very article.
thelordismylight,
Like the Immaculate Conception of Mary.
Like what?
thelordismylight,
I think not; current catholic dogma cannot even be found in Scripture my friend.
Well I guess we win on both sides of the court then.
thelordismylight,
Again, you have missed the context of our conversation. Why bring up the Protestant Reformation and then decide not to talk about it. We can go all day talking about demographics; but that will never prove which faith is right. To do that you must compare which faith represents the truth contained in the Scriptures.
Online4Him-
Wikipedia-
Roman Catholic 31.4%, Evangelical Church in Germany 30.8%, Nonreligious 29.6%, Muslim 4%, Orthodox 2%[1] Roman Catholic is mainly in the South East (Southern Bavaria) and the Very West (Rheinland & Cologne). Strongholds of Protestants are in all Northern States. Muslim, Orthodox and Jewish minority communities are mainly in the big cities.
And what are you talking about the Eastern block? If the entire Eastern block was Orthodox Christian then how come there are only 200 milllion of you? 57 million of which are in the U.S.? I named many major countries and disproved one of your countries. As for the others I will look into them soon.
Thelordismylight,
First, you failed to realize the context of our conversation; it was the Reformation. You first brought up the issue of the Protestant Reformation and I commented on the same issue. I was referring to Europe, right after the Reformation, but since you brought up current demographics; England, Iceland, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, half of Germany all are Protestants nations and the entire eastern block of Europe is Orthodox Christianity.
My point is; this would not have happened if the RCC remained pure and true. So, you really need to understand what caused this Reformation and why so many nations at the time withdrew their allegiance from Rome.
Online4Him-
Not true. Indulgences were incorrect, but can you argue that tithing is any better? Reformation is ONE thing, completely changing the entire church is quite another. Luther was going against the pope, calling him "a complete fool who knows nothing about anything" and he also was opposed to the fact that Eucharist was actually Jesus, which is what our faith is CENTERED around. He was not excommunicated for trying to "reform," reform would have been eliminating indulgences and making the Church more charitable. What HE did was go against the things that the Church revolved upon, like the Pope and the Eucharist. THAT is why he was excommunicated. And what nations are you talking about? Besides England? Let's see... Italy, Germany, France, Spain, and Portugal are still considered extremely Catholic nations. Poland also has a majority of Catholicism and Judaism is close behind it. The largest religion in America IS Catholicism. In Africa Catholicism is practically the ONLY religion. Phillipines. American Samoa. Cuba. Mexico. Latin America. Canada, although there are quite a few of your lot in there, but when you are in Quebec, there is a Catholic church on every street. I have been there. (in case maranatha misinterprets it, it was an exaggeration, don't beat me up) We also have Puerto Rico and Ukraine... that is about it... what countries are Protestant again?
thelordismylight,
The Protestant Reformation would never have happened if th RCC had remained pure and true. It was not a few individuals that recognized this; entire nations in Europe decided to separate themselves from this apostate system.
Maranatha-
Correct, rebellion is not encouraged. Thus the Protestant "Reformation" is exactly that, a rebellion. Most mainstream protestant churches view abortion as perfectly fine. I believe this would qualify as sin AND immorality. You say compromise is condemned and yet you condemn the church for NOT compromising. I have thought about it, and I agree with the pope now, no other religion has the means of salvation. There is black, there is white, there is no gray, no COMPROMISE, no "gray area". Either it is right or it is WRONG.
Lol, you three, Prophet, Online4Him, and maranatha... you all prove my point. I see you three at EVERY article that has ANYTHING to do with the pope, constantly slandering the church. LOL, you three cannot be trusted, if you want to debate something about the RCC feel free to duke it out with taj or myself, but hiding in here and just having a total, all-out "dis-fest"? ... lol. Especially you, Prophet. You seem to think, just as the Protestants view on the murder of BABIES, that if it cannot defend itself you automatically win. Do you protties even know what HAPPENS to a baby once it is aborted? DO YOU? It lies out there for the next 2-3 hours asphyxiating due to its under-developed lungs. It dies a horrible, terrifying, half-formed death. Not to mention it can mentally wreck the poor girl that got the abortion. You open your legs, you get what you get. Harsh, but true.
Prophet-
Far behind? LOL, ya, umm I think we have you beat by a couple thousand years.
True. Then who cares if the Pope said it.
The Pope is just reiterating what it has always taught. The family is under attack all over the world. God bless him for speaking the truth.
The Protestants are all preaching against sin. That doesn't mean they just "discovered" that sin is evil.
"Pope Says Family Key to Peace"
Now there's something new. It's not like I've been hearing Protestant preachers saying the same thing for years. Why is the RCC that far behind?
The Bible says that there shall be one flock and one shepherd. Paul says that it is wrong that some say "I belong to Apollos", or "I belong to Paul", or "I belong to Cephas". So when people started to follow Luther (Lutherans) and Calvin (Calvinists), that was very unbiblical.
Marantha, though I agree that other sins are discussed more often, the Bible is quite clear that there is to be unity within the Church. I do not believe that this is the Catholic church, more it is the connection of all believers through the Truth of Christ. However I am completely against the many denominations we have. There is only one Truth, we should all be striving with every part of ourselves, to conform to the Bible and create one Church. The only thing that separates the many denominations is evil reasons. Therefore I will not call myself as a Luthern or a Calvinist or a Baptist or even a Catholic for that matter, I am a Christian.
Hi, Online4Him! Glad to see you here, too. Thanks for the kinds words. It sure would be nice if I could get a response from the RC's, but I'm not holding my breath. :-(
Maranatha7593,
Hello and well said :)
taj wrote: "Virtually nothing is more strongly and repeatedly condemned in the Bible than divisions, sectarianism, and denominationalism. The Bible teaches that there is one Church only, with one truth and one unified apostolic tradition."
Where do you get this, taj? Sin, rebellion, immorality, and compromise are condemned at least as often as disunity, if not more. For example, read 2 Corinthians 6 for a strong warning by the apostle Paul to "come out from among them [referring to disobedient, rebellious "Christians" in name only] and be ye separate". There IS a true unity among believers, which can only be effected by the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
"He said: "Founded in the indissoluble union between man and woman, it is the place in which human life is sheltered and protected from its beginning until its natural end.”
Well, I definitely agree with this. I am glad he is standing for the Biblical definition of marriage. Now, if he'll just take a Biblical stand on everything else. :-)
BTW, I had mentioned at the other page that I had read a quote by him in our newspaper a day or so ago (I'm sure it was also from his New Year address) where he deplored the way youth have "trivialized" sex. ITA with him on that as well, but I realize that adults have done that as well. It's only in returning to God's Word that we can see what is right and what is wrong.
oops: sorry for the double clip :)
Taj,
Let’s let allow the scriptures to define true unity. . . . . John 17:21 says, “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
However what is ignored by the ecumenists are the prerequisites that alone will provide unity.
Sanctify them through thy truth: they word is truth – John 17:17.
There are but two prerequisites to the uniting of the flock of Jesus: the first is TRUTH, and the second is SANCTIFICATION. It is plain from the words of Jesus that there is no sanctification aside from truth. With so much pluralism and eclecticism being promoted in the ecumenical movement there is not a sliver of hope that this movement can lead to TRUE unity.
Yet truth alone is not sufficient to bring unity. We may have an intellectual knowledge and acceptance of the truth, but unless in the power of the indwelling Jesus Christ we allow the truth to permeate every neuron of our mind and sinew of our body, we will not be agents of unity. Many see unity as a goal, an objective, or an aim, but that thought cannot be sustained. UNITY IS A RESULT. It is a natural consequence that binds together those who have been sanctified by the TRUTH.
All men and women on the planet, who permit the Holy Spirit to bring them to truth, and permit Christ to sanctify their hearts and lives without manipulation, will be united one with another. Unity brooks no consensus and no compromise. The very suggestion that powerful truths such as - salvation by faith alone, salvation through God’s grace alone, salvation in Christ alone, and the truth that is revealed in God’s word alone be put aside in quest for unity will be repugnant to all faithful Christians. Such a movement degrades Christianity into a pagan faith hostile to the true gospel.
You said:
“Doctrinal contradiction of any sort is absolutely at odds with biblical teaching,” and “St. Peter warned about "false teachers" among Christians, who would "secretly bring in destructive heresies," which go against "the way of truth"
I am glad that you are highlighting “BIBLICAL TEACHING” and “DESTRUCTIVE HERESIES”; doctrines such as these is what Peter was talking about –
593-Purgatory, 754-Temporal Power, 847-Decretals of Isidore (a forgery), 858-Donation of Constantine (another forgery), 1075-Greatest mass divorce in history forced upon clergy by Gregory VII, 1100-Money for Masses, 1184-Inquisition, 1190-Sale of Indulgences, 1215-Transubstantiation, 1226-Adoration of Host, 1303-Papal Bull Unam Sanctam, 1415-Cup denied to laymen by the Council of Constance, 1545-Council of Trent-Rome turns finally from authority of God’s Word to authority of tradition. Tradition made equal in authority to Bible. Justification by faith condemned, 1600-The invention of Scapulars, 1854-Immaculate Conception, 1864-Seperation of Church and State Condemned, 1870-Papal Infallibility, 1908-Papal decree invalidating mixed marriages not performed by a Roman priest, 1950-Assumption of Mary.
Taj,
Why don’t you allow the entire text to speak for itself: Romans 16:17 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye
have learned; and avoid them.
I think you left out “contrary to doctrine”; this is a perquisite for unity. 1Corinthians 1; when taken in its context speaks about believers claiming their allegiance to certain leaders; here Paul rebukes them and then proceeds to focus on the preaching the “gospel” of Christ. This same scenario is mentioned in 1Corinthians 3; Paul then reminds the Corinthians that the foundation of the church is Jesus Christ (1Cor. 3:11) - For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
In 1Corinthians 11:18-19, Paul is rebuking the inappropriate behavior during the gather together for the Lord’s Supper. 1Cor. 12 is discussing spiritual gifts and how those gifts unite the body, however, look at verse 28; - And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Oh, There is no mention here of a “universal head – pope”.
Galatians chapter 5 is making a distinction between walking in the Spirit and walking in the flesh; verse 20 speaks of heresies – you know UNBIBLICAL dogmas. Again, in 1Corinthians 1 Paul says the focus in not on the various leaders, but on the “gospel of Jesus Christ.” Jesus said: Sanctify them through thy TRUTH: THY WORD IS TRUTH – John 17:17
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; - Ephesians 4:14.
Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? – Colossians 2:22.
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained – 1Timothy 4:6.But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: - Titus 2:1
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God – Matthew 4:4.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: - 2John 1:10.
According to the Dictionary of Christianity in America [Protestant] (Downers Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1990): "As of 1980 David B. Barrett identified 20,800 Christian denominations worldwide . . ."
("Denominationalism," p. 351). I have this book, so I have seen this with my own eyes. Barrett "classified them into seven major blocs and 156 ecclesiastical traditions." This is from Oxford World Christian Encyclopedia, 1982, of which he is the editor.
Also, according to United Nations there were over 23,000 competing and often contradictory denominations world-wide (World Census of Religious Activities [U.N. Information Center, NY, 1989]). This was cited in Frank Schaeffer's book Dancing Alone (Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Press, 1994), p. 4. Schaeffer is Orthodox.
The 1999 Encyclopedia of Christianity has this to say: "In 1985 David Barrett could count 22,150 distinct denominations worldwide." {edited by E. Fahlbusch, et al., Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1999, vol. 1, p. 800, s.v. "Denomination." David B. Barrett is the statistical editor}
Citing the Oxford World Christian Encyclopedia, 1982: ". . . a projected 22,190 by 1985 . . . The present net increase is 270 denominations each year (five new ones a week)." {pp. 15-18}
Denominationalism thus represents the moral failure of Christianity. And unless the ethics of brotherhood can gain the victory over this divisiveness within the body of Christ it is useless to expect it to be victorious in the world. But before the church can hope to overcome its fatal division it must learn to recognize and to acknowledge the secular character of its denominationalism.
Virtually nothing is more strongly and repeatedly condemned in the Bible than divisions, sectarianism, and denominationalism. The Bible teaches that there is one Church only, with one truth and one unified apostolic tradition.
Doctrinal contradiction of any sort is absolutely at odds with biblical teaching, which repeatedly urges unity and forbids divisions of any kind among Christians. Our Lord Jesus prayed at the Last Supper for Christians to be "one even as we [the Father and the son] are one" and "perfectly one" (Jn. 17:22-23) and viewed the Church as being "one flock" with "one shepherd" (Jn. 10:16). St. Luke described the earliest Christians as being "of one heart and soul" (Acts 4:32). St. Peter warned about "false teachers" among Christians, who would "secretly bring in destructive heresies," which go against "the way of truth" (2 Pet. 2:1-2).
St. Paul, above all, repeatedly condemns "dissensions" and "difficulties" (Rom. 16:17), "quarreling" (1 Cor. 1:11), "jealousy and strife" (1 Cor. 3:3), "divisions" and "factions" (1 Cor. 11:18-19), "discord" (1 Cor. 12:25), "enmity" and "party spirit" (Gal. 5:20), and calls for Christians to be "united in the same mind and the same judgment" (1 Cor. 1:10; cf. Phil. 2:2). He expressly condemns party affiliations associated with persons (1 Cor. 1:12-13: "Is Christ divided?"; cf. 3:4-7).
Jeremiah 9:24
24 but let him who boasts boast about this:
that he understands and knows me,
that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness,
justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight,"
declares the LORD.
Thanks for the articles about the Pope's comments. Stalin once asked, sarcastically, 'how many divisions has the Pope?' The answer came three decades later in the form of Pope John Paul II. This Polish warrior pope helped raise the storm winds that finally blew down the evil edifice of communism and freed the long- suffering peoples of Eastern Europe who had been condemned by Roosevelt and Churchill at Yalta to Soviet totalitarian rule. Great warrior, great humanist, he renewed the vigor and teachings of the Catholic Church, and expelled the marxist priests who had infested it. If there ever was a true saint, it is John Paul II. The greatest pope since the Renaissance.
Now can Pope Benedict lead the 1.2 billion Catholics to overcome the secular humanists the way Pope John Paul II led them to overcome communism?