Some prominent evangelical leaders are criticizing the heads of the National Association of Evangelicals for signing a letter to Muslim leaders containing controversial language.
The critical leaders include Dr. Albert Mohler, Gary Bauer, and Dr. Patrick Sookhdeo who voiced opposition to the apology in the letter for the sins of Christians during the Crusades and for “excesses” of the global war on terror, without mentioning Muslim acts of violence.
Moreover, the leaders contend the letter compromises the importance of Jesus in Christianity in order to appease Muslims.
Mohler noted that the letter “sends the wrong signal” and contains basic theological problems especially in “marginalizing” Jesus Christ, according to Focus on the Family’s Citizenlink. He also rejected the apology for the Crusades.
“I just have to wonder how intellectually honest this is,” he said. “Are these people suggesting that they wish the military conflict with Islam had ended differently – that Islam had conquered Europe?” asked the president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
In November, over 100 theologians, ministry leaders and prominent pastors signed a response letter issued by the Yale Center for Faith and Culture. The Christian letter was a response to an unprecedented letter signed by 138 representative Muslim leaders that called for peace between Muslims and Christians.
Among the Christian response signers were NAE president the Rev. Leith Anderson and the NAE vice president the Rev. Richard Cizik.
When signing the letter, Anderson had qualified acknowledged in a public statement that there were parts of the letter that he did not support.
He also explained that it was “nearly impossible” for more than a hundred busy theologians and Christian leaders to “keep going back [and forth]” with the “addition and subtraction and rewriting of words and paragraphs.”
In the end, Anderson said, “Sometimes we all sign onto things that are not all that we would like them to be.”
According to Citizenlink, the name of the Muslim letter, “A Common Word between Us and You,” is from a verse in the Koran that condemns “people of the Scripture” (Christians) for polytheism (the belief in the trinity).
Campaign for Working Families, Gary Bauer, responded to the NAE leaders’ support by saying he has been lately concerned with the NAE’s recent involvement in social issues, such as global warming, and that the Muslim letter was another such cause for concern.
“Many of us have been concerned about the NAE getting into all sorts of areas where it has had no previous expertise,” Bauer said. “And now, I’m afraid, I see signs that they’re going down the same road that the National Council of Churches (NCC) is going.”
NCC has been criticized by many Christian conservatives for being too liberal and partnering with socially liberal organizations.
Meanwhile, Islam expert Dr. Patrick Sookhdeo, an Anglican priest and director of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity, called the letter a “betrayal” and a “sellout.”
Sookhdeo called for the Christian leaders to withdraw their names from the response, saying the admittance of guilt betrays the Christian faith and puts fellow Christians in the Muslim world in danger.
However, Anderson said other evangelical leaders more knowledgeable in Islam than him had encouraged him to sign the statement and said it would help Christians who live and minister in Muslim majority countries.
“In fact, some suggested that not signing could be damaging to these Christian brothers and sisters who live among Muslims,” the NAE president recalled.
“So, I agreed to add my name to the letter,” he said. Yet he admitted that, “There simply was not an easy way to process the complexities of this inter-faith communiqué on short notice.”
The NAE leader further noted in his explanation letter that he anticipated misunderstandings and criticisms about his support for the letter and ended by stating that he believes Jesus Christ is his savior and Lord. He also said he wanted Muslims to know about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
RSS
The doctrine of the Trinity is the conservative Christian belief inherited from Greek pagan religions that there is one God who has revealed Himself in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up their belief in god. These three persons are alleged to be of the same substance, equal in power and glory. This is the sacrilegious conservative Christian belief categorically opposed by Almighty The-God in the religion of Islam / Shalom.
The Old Testament clearly states that there is only one God.
Deuteronomy 6:4 states, "Hear Oh Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one".
Isaiah 44:6 states, "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me".
Clearly, these biblical verses reveal that there is only one God. Yet, zealots in Christianity have fabricated three separate persons in the New Testament who are allegedly called and share the attributes of The-God. They give the characteristics only God can have that are a shameful blasphemous belief.
'The concept of Trinity is not the teaching of Jesus Christ'. 'If the Trinity is not a Biblical teaching, how did it become a doctrine of Christendom'? Many think that it was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. That is not totally correct, however. The Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the Holy Spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead.
Why, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?
Are Christians to believe that centuries after Christ and after having inspired the writing of the Bible, God would back the formulation of a doctrine that was unknown to his servants for thousands of years, one that is an "inscrutable mystery" "beyond the grasp of human reason," one that admittedly had a pagan background and was "largely a matter of church politics"?
The testimony of history is clear: The Trinity teaching is a deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it.
pilgrim.1
I have not aasumed that Bible is wrong but factually some portions of bible with relation to basic faith have been adulterated with Greek Pagan mythology for which zelaots mainly converted Greeks in 65 A.D. have been responsible. Many parts of Bible which relates to Jesus Gospels are nice literature which would help you to behave humanly.
The doctrine of the Trinity is the conservative Christian belief inherited from Greek pagan religions that there is one God who has revealed Himself in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up their God. These three persons are alleged to be of the same substance, equal in power and glory. This is the sacrilegious conservative Christian belief categorically opposed by Almighty The-God in the religion of Islam / Shalom.
The Old Testament clearly states that there is only one God.
Deuteronomy 6:4 states, "Hear Oh Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one".
Isaiah 44:6 states, "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me".
Clearly, these biblical verses reveal that there is only one God. Yet, zealots in Christianity have fabricated three separate persons in the New Testament who are allegedly called god and give the characteristics only God can have that is a shameful blasphemous belief.
@khanson,
Your quote:
'Look at the Prophets and God's men before Jesus,
whom they worshipped. They all worshipped Almighty The-God'
What source or texts are you asking others to look at in order to see 'the Prophets' when you already have assumed that the Bible is based on 'human innovations'? I see a self-contradictory premise in your arguments in so many instances that I just had to make a few remarks.
Now, suppose indeed we all go to the Bible to look at the Prophets, how is it that the same Prophets made remakable statements that you cannot find anywhere in the theology of Islam? For example, the prophets knew God as 'FATHER', and let me cite just a few of them:
(a) Moses knew God as FATHER:
Deuteronomy 32:6
Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise?
is not he THY FATHER that hath bought thee?
hath He not made thee, and established thee?
(b) Isaiah knew God as FATHER:
Isaisah 63:16
Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us,
and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our FATHER,
our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
(c) Jeremiah knew God as FATHER:
Jeremiah 3:4
Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My FATHER,
thou art the guide of my youth?
Now, against all the argument of being a strict monotheist, have you considered the confessions in the worship of the Prophets whom you urged others to examine? They new Him as FATHER; and as a 'strict monotheist', do you know God in the same way that those Prophets knew Him? Do you confess Him as such, or you'd rather keep denying the same revelation of the Prophets whom you yourself asked others to look at?
With love in Jesus.
jesus4me
With all due respect to you as a human and respect to your personal belief, your beliefs are human innovations. I am as a strict monotheist do not contribute to your faith which stands on human dreams and assumptions. I do not blame you because you have been fed with this kind of knowledge since your childhood. This has become your passion.
My dear, you believe in the bible which is the writing of human inspirers, only a portion of it could be trusted to be correct. By saying so, I do not mean disrespect to anyone but respect to the truth that "The only deity worth worshipping is Almighty The-God".
Be a good Christian by accepting the fact that non of The-God's creation could ever become deity, only Almighty The-God is deity. The man-made deities would be destroyed by The-God because only Almighty The-God is eternal.
Look at the Prophets and God's men before Jesus, whom they worshipped. They all worshipped Almighty The-God. The Creator Lord never fakes His identity with human incarnation. Like Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses, Jesus was a humble servant of God. He was the unique Messenger prophet and I love him so for his teachings and example.
Khanson, you said:
"As far as Jesu being son of god - I refute it bluntly - the simple reason is that God is The-Creator Lord. He does not need to become human - He commands and it is done."
Khanson, when you deny Jesus Christ's Deity, you deny the Creator God. Read the Word of God for yourself.
And again, khanson, please don't get angry with the Truth of God's Word.
Hebrews 1 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Hebrews 1
God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?[c]
And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]
7 And of the angels He says:
“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”[f]
8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]
10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”[h]
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?[i]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Footnotes:
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits by Himself.
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits our.
Hebrews 1:5 Psalm 2:7
Hebrews 1:5 2 Samuel 7:14
Hebrews 1:6 Deuteronomy 32:43 (Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls); Psalm 97:7
Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
Hebrews 1:9 Psalm 45:6, 7
Hebrews 1:12 Psalm 102:25–27
Hebrews 1:13 Psalm 110:1
khanson, as you can see, the Promised Land Israel was promised to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; thru them, Israel, God's Promised Land was given to the Israelites (Jewish people). Thru Abraham's, Isaac, Jacob, and David's family line, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and Savior of the world was to be born, and it so happened just as God has promised. In the Book of the Prophet Isaiah, there is a Messianic Prophesy concerning Immanuel - (God with us) Which is a direct prophesy to Jesus Christ the Messiah. The Book Of Hebrews refers to Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to dwell with us. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. This is why, He (Jesus Christ is also referred to as the (Lamb of God, or the Lamb that was slain). God our Creator accepts no other standard except absolute perfection. Because the ONLY ABSOLUTELY PERFECT ONE is HE, HE sent HImself in the form of a Man (His Son, Jesus Christ) to dwell with us (Immanuel). You see, it was God's Plan ever since the beginning when sin entered the world thru Adam, in the Garden of Eden to reetore His relationship with His Creation-man (men and women alike). When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they realized they were naked, and hid from God. God, shed the first blood for remission of sins, and clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins to clothe their nakedness. You see, the first animal sacrifice was done in the Garden of Eden after the fall of man into depraved sinful behavior, and mankind has been born into sin ever since the beginning. In order for man to be righteous before God, God instituted a sacrificial system in the Jewish Law as a sign of what was to come - The Ultimate Sacrifice and Shedding of Blood for sins - The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ Messiah Immanuel (God with Us). And just like God promised, He delivered. No one killed Jesus Christ on the Cross. He gave Himself willingly. He knew it had to be done. Because God demands absolute perfection, There was no other Way, except for Jesus Christ to shed His Prescios Blood. The sins of the world were bore on Jesus Christ as He gave up His Life on the Cross, all the sin of man was imputed upon Him. He died, resurrected on the third day after conquering hell and death, and now sits at the Right Hand of the Father God.
Prophet
Jesus4me and I had a long conversation and I had no intention of hurting anyone's feeling or anyone converting from one religion to others. My intention with all you guys is to share with you the concept of God. Almighty The-God cannot be more than one - He is Just One God.
As far as Jesu being son of god - I refute it bluntly - the simple reason is that God is The-Creator Lord. He does not need to become human - He commands and it is done.
No one is saved unless believes and worhips One God without attaching any affiliations in His Oneness. I never thought that you or any Christian worships any other god because there is no other god except The-God of Adam. But majority of the people conceive not.
Jesus4me,
Continue to share the truth of God's Word my friend :)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek - Romans 1:16
the-khanson
That's very mature. LOL. I have read the conversation between you and jesus4me. I know for a fact that Jesus4me is saved, so I have to wonder what your last post is all about. Maybe it's some attempt to regain some of your pride and make yourself look good. J4M's post seemed to be based on the Word of God. Yours is just angry retaliation. Im sure that your last message to J4M will be ignored as being immature. I will continue to pray that you will be led into the Truth of who God is and what He is all about.
jesus4me,
Continue to walk in His truth. Place Him above all things, and continue to keep Him as Lord of your life. God bless you.
Jesus4me
Jesus4me, if you want to truly follow Almighty The-God, and be righteous in The-God's sight - God, the Creator of Heaven, Earth, and the Universe, then you need to come to Him by faith in His Oneness. You had mentioned that everyone has a choice. After the evidence and facts given to you not only by myself but by other brother and sisters in the Lord, you need to make a choice.
I as well as I am sure others are urging you in love to repent of your sins to The-God of Adam and Jesus, accept Jesus Christ as the Messenger Prophet of Almighty The-God, accept him (Jesus Christ) as a Way, the Truth and the Life, ask only Almighty The-God to forgive you of your sins, and follow His Almighty through His Almighty’s teachings in Torah, Gospel and The Last Testament Qur’an.
Worship THE-CREATOR not His creatures.
The Word of God, The Bible, declares in John 3:16-
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-17 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
khanson, if you want to trully follow God, and be righteous in God's sight - God, the Creator of Heaven, Earth, and the Universe, then you need to come to Him by faith in His One and Only Son Jesus Christ the Messiah Immanuel. You had mentioned that everyone has a choice. After the evidence and facts given to you not only by myself but by other brother and sisters in the Lord, you need to make a choice. Who will you serve this day? Is not the Biblical, historical, and archaelogical evidence enough proof for you to believe that Christ Jesus is the Son of God, the Promised Savior of the world, and the Only Way to God?
I as well as I am sure others on this board are urging you in love to repent of your sins, accept Jesus Christ as the Mediator between you and God our Creator, accept Him (Jesus Christ) as the Only Way, the Truth and the Life, ask Him to forgive you of your sins, and follow Him.
John 14:6 declares:
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Derowr
Messiah is Christ and Jesus is Christ if anyone believes to be true. Those who deny Jesus as Messiah would soon realise that they are in a fools' paradize. Almighty The-God would send down Jesus Christ once again to "liberate" Monotheists and free the land from the darkness of evil.
Jesus Christ would establish the religion of God: Monotheism and all false gods, bogus religions, polytheism and man made idols would perish and burn in Hellfire.
all systems of religious theo'ry'logy are Anti-Messiah.
yet there is hope!
for Miracles do happen!
hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving "a love of The Truth" for they will "see" "The Light" that is The Messiah.
peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this world and it's systems of religion, for "the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one"(1Jn5:19) indeed and Truth....... francisco
January 14th 2008 06:07 PM ET
Jesus4me
You are certainly a well convinced person on what you believe. You must critically analyse your beliefs and ask question whether your are correct. Take hours, days and weeks but be correct. Mind you, you cannot face Almighty The-God on the day of Judgement because you do not believe in Almighty The-God. You have given the rights of The-Creator Lord The-God to a human Messenger Prophet Jesus Christ (PBUH).
Almighty The-God never tolerates partners in His domain. Jesus Christ is just a human creation who has been elevated to The Messenger Prophet of The-God. So were Moses, Aaron, David, and Abraham (PBUT).
Think and question yourself: If Jesus was god then all the Prophets before him did not worship Jesus as god; certainly there efforts were a waste. Beware, all the Messenger Prophets worshipped ONE-GOD none worshipped Jesus as God.
Before you die, believe in One-God which Jesus Christ (PBUH) believed and so the other Prophets. After doing that if you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ in dealings with people there is hope that you may be redeemed by Almighty The-God.
By doing so – you would still be a Christian, a devout Christian.
Jan 14 - 2008
Jesus4me
It wasn't until about A.D. 65 that these stories and sayings (of the so called bible) began to be gathered and re-written down in books known as the Gospels, which make up about half of what Christians call the New Testament.
The most notable is the fact that Jesus Christ never wrote any portion of the New Testament but there is ample understanding that the original written New Testament existed in Hebrew/Aramaic which were lost during the Roman’s barbaric rule. Exact revelation of verses to Jesus Christ has been always believed to be in Hebrew/Aramaic but the existence of original New Testament in Greek is in itself is a sign that original revelations to Jesus Christ were lost just after his upliftment to heaven. Jesus Christ spoke Aramaic and Hebrew but not Greek.
Otherwise the following blasphamous verses would not be in the bible. I can provide many such biblical verses which are again the nobilty of pious human. If you defend bible then answer me from the following: -
33: And they made their father drink wine that night, and the firstborn went in and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34: And it came to pass on the morrow that the firstborn said unto the younger, "Behold, I lay yesternight with my father. Let us make him drink wine this night also, and go thou in and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father."
35: And they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36: Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father {21st Century King James Version Genesis 19:33 – 35}.
No wonder incestion among most westerners come from the inspiration of this erroneous so called biblical verse. Would you still call it the word of god? You should be purifying your holy book from unholy accusations and purifying yourselves in the court of Almighty The-God who is ONE and WHO is the Master of the Day of Judgement.
khanson, the Word of God, The Bible, declares in John 3:16-
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-17 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
khanson, if you want to trully follow God, and be righteous in God's sight - God, the Creator of Heaven, Earth, and the Universe, then you need to come to Him by faith in His One and Only Son Jesus Christ the Messiah Immanuel. You had mentioned that everyone has a choice. After the evidence and facts given to you not only by myself but by other brother and sisters in the Lord, you need to make a choice. Who will you serve this day? Is not the Biblical, historical, and archaelogical evidence enough proof for you to believe that Christ Jesus is the Son of God, the Promised Savior of the world, and the Only Way to God?
I as well as I am sure others on this board are urging you in love to repent of your sins, accept Jesus Christ as the Mediator between you and God our Creator, accept Him (Jesus Christ) as the Only Way, the Truth and the Life, ask Him to forgive you of your sins, and follow Him.
John 14:6 declares:
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
And again, khanson, please don't get angry with the Truth of God's Word.
Hebrews 1 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Hebrews 1
God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?[c]
And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]
7 And of the angels He says:
“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”[f]
8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]
10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”[h]
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?[i]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Footnotes:
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits by Himself.
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits our.
Hebrews 1:5 Psalm 2:7
Hebrews 1:5 2 Samuel 7:14
Hebrews 1:6 Deuteronomy 32:43 (Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls); Psalm 97:7
Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
Hebrews 1:9 Psalm 45:6, 7
Hebrews 1:12 Psalm 102:25–27
Hebrews 1:13 Psalm 110:1
khanson, please do not be angry, but accept the facts and the TRUTH:
Genesis 21:12
But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called.
Genesis 21:11-13 (in Context) Genesis 21 (Whole Chapter
Genesis 25:11
And it came to pass, after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac. And Isaac dwelt at Beer Lahai Roi.
Genesis 25:10-12 (in Context) Genesis 25 (Whole Chapter
Exodus 3:15
Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’
Exodus 3:14-16 (in Context) Exodus 3 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 3:16
Exodus 6:8
And I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as a heritage: I am the LORD.’”
Exodus 6:7-9 (in Context) Exodus 6 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 32:13
Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’”
Exodus 32:12-14 (in Context) Exodus 32 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 33:1
[ The Command to Leave Sinai ] Then the LORD said to Moses, “Depart and go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘To your descendants I will give it.’
Exodus 33:1-3 (in Context) Exodus 33 (Whole Chapter)
Leviticus 26:42
then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;I will remember the land.
Leviticus 26:41-43 (in Context) Leviticus 26 (Whole Chapter)
khanson, as you can see, the Promised Land Israel was promised to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; thru them, Israel, God's Promised Land was given to the Israelites (Jewish people). Thru Abraham's, Isaac, Jacob, and David's family line, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and Savior of the world was to be born, and it so happened just as God has promised. In the Book of the Prophet Isaiah, there is a Messianic Prophesy concerning Immanuel - (God with us) Which is a direct prophesy to Jesus Christ the Messiah. The Book Of Hebrews refers to Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to dwell with us. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. This is why, He (Jesus Christ is also referred to as the (Lamb of God, or the Lamb that was slain). God our Creator accepts no other standard except absolute perfection. Because the ONLY ABSOLUTELY PERFECT ONE is HE, HE sent HImself in the form of a Man (His Son, Jesus Christ) to dwell with us (Immanuel). You see, it was God's Plan ever since the beginning when sin entered the world thru Adam, in the Garden of Eden to reetore His relationship with His Creation-man (men and women alike). When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they realized they were naked, and hid from God. God, shed the first blood for remission of sins, and clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins to clothe their nakedness. You see, the first animal sacrifice was done in the Garden of Eden after the fall of man into depraved sinful behavior, and mankind has been born into sin ever since the beginning. In order for man to be righteous before God, God instituted a sacrificial system in the Jewish Law as a sign of what was to come - The Ultimate Sacrifice and Shedding of Blood for sins - The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ Messiah Immanuel (God with Us). And just like God promised, He delivered. No one killed Jesus Christ on the Cross. He gave Himself willingly. He knew it had to be done. Because God demands absolute perfection, There was no other Way, except for Jesus Christ to shed His Prescios Blood. The sins of the world were bore on Jesus Christ as He gave up His Life on the Cross, all the sin of man was imputed upon Him. He died, resurrected on the third day after conquering hell and death, and now sits at the Right Hand of the Father God.
Jan 14th - 2008
John 14-6
I never questioned any matter against Jesus Christ except your belief that he is son of God. For me as a Muslim, Jesus Christ is from Divine, he is born without father, he is The Unique Messenger Prophet of The-God, His teachings are Divine and He never died on cross but will return to this earth to take the leads of believers. Among those believers, Khanson would also be there if life span permits.
By reading The-Qur’an, you will not become Muslim. You would be blessed with the additional knowledge that will make you rich. The-Qur’an is for whole of mankind as well as jinnkind, I would give you a sample of The-Qur’an. This is the beauty of God which His Almighty describes in His Last Testament:
"GOD: there is no other god besides Him, the Living, the Eternal. Never a moment of unawareness or slumber overtakes Him. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. Who could intercede with Him, except in accordance with His will? He knows their past, and their future. No one attains any knowledge, except as He wills. His dominion encompasses the heavens and the earth, and ruling them never burdens Him. He is the Most High, the Great" {The Qur’an – Chapter: The Cow 02:255}.
Jan 14th - 2008
John 14-6
Archangel Gabriel came to Muhammad (SAW) and revealed the first verses of The-Qur’an. When Gabriel came to him (SAW) he was not aware of him being Gabriel. Gabriel introduced himself and said:
Read (Muhammad said I am unlettered). Gabriel said Read in the name of God (Alloh) the Beneficent and Merciful.
Almighty The-God gave empowerment to an unlettered person (Muhammad) to read and he read.
“Read in the name of the Lord who created you? Who created humans from the blood clot? Read in the name of beneficent (God) who teaches with Pen. He (The-God) teaches people which they do not know” {The – Qur’an}.
Can anyone unlettered could become the leader of 1.50 billion people today. This is the first miracle which should be sufficient for the knowledgeable to understand. Can anyone unlettered write a magnificent book of Qur’an?
If you were aware of the richness of knowledge in The-Qur’an that would have been a reason for you to live in this world.
khanson--
(continued)
Having delivered my arguments for the truth of the Bible, it's historicity, it's authority, it's accuracy, as proven by manuscript evidence, historical-contextual veracity, archaeological evidence, etc, I will tackle the supposed revelation of the Koran. Mohammed's supposed revelation came in a cave from the "angel Gabriel". Now I will ask you to address these arguments and points:
First, the only witness to this supposed incident was Mohammed himself. Not a great start. The only authority for the status of "prophet" for Mohammed comes from Mohammed simply saying he was a prophet. Um, I could do that too, anyone could, but it doesn't make us prophets. Mohammed offered no proof of his status as prophet through miracles or anything else. When rebuked and opposed, God did not intervene (as he did with Elijah and the priests of Baal or any other prophet, or Moses and the plagues, the Red Sea, etc) for Mohammed. Mohammed simply turned from the peaceful message he first preached (a sort of pseudo-Christian message) to a violent and vengeful message. He gathered enough people to support him through his promises of plunder, to launch an aggressive, violent campaign against those who rejected him. That doesn't prove anything except that human nature is consistent.
(to be continued)
khanson--
The question of Jesus divinity is closed, for true Christians. Jesus divinity - equality with God - his death on the cross and his resurrection from the dead are not open to negotiation. Any Muslim seeking to get Christians to deny Christ's divinity, to deny his death on the cross, to deny the empty tomb, or to deny his resurrection and appearance to his disciples, his fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah, and his atoning for human sin, is in a losing argument. These points are not open to negotiation to any true Christian of any denomination. This is the heart of orthodoxy in all Christian denominations.
(continued)
The important fact is this - not one area of the New Testament where there is some question of original wording affects any point of Christian doctrine, nor does it in any way change or affect anything Jesus said. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. Through the long ages of history, we have more copies of our scripture than any other ancient manuscripts in existence (and our copies are older and closer to the source than any other ancient historical documents - papyrus, codexes, etc - over works such as Homer's Ilyiad, Josephus, Plato, etc). Keep in mind, too, that the gospel message isn't a product of written documents. The apostles spread the gospel of Jesus Christ for decades before anyone wrote it down. It was spread by oral tradition, not by manuscripts (just like the Koran, in fact). The ultimate truth and authority is in the message, not a book.
For detailed arguments see "Misquoting Truth" by Timothy Paul Jones or "Fabricating Jesus" by the brilliant scholar Craig Evans, these contain more detailed discussions of the New Testament manuscripts, the reliability of their transmission, etc, written for lay people. Excellent books that provide scholarly evidence and arguments that I don't have time or space here to include.
Anyway, the reliability of the New Testament and its authority isn't a question for Christians as history, science back it up, and the Holy Spirit convicts Christians of its authority and truth. That truth is not lost simply through a translation. Muslims are being dishonest when they claim that Christians have 1000 versions of the Bible and therefore it can't be authoritative. Utter nonsense, but it probably sounds convincing to Muslim believers when it comes from some Imam's mouth.
Search on "verbal plenary inspiration" and on "New Testament autographs" on Google.
khanson--
You need to re-read what I posted about the Christian view of inspiration vs. Muslim's view of the Koran's supposed inspiration/revelation (I do not consider the Koran to be a divinely inspired or revealed book).
First, I'll answer your charges about the New Testament. Then I'll present my critique of the Koran.
As to the New Testament, as I said, Christians do not consider translation of the original Aramaic, Greek, etc, to negate the verbal plenary inspiration of the text. The Holy Spirit is capable of revealing the truth in any language. The fact that the underlying source text has been translated is not an issue whatsoever for Christians. Only the original source documents (called "autographs") are considered "inspired", not the copies. And all we have are the copies, since the source documents have long since turned to dust. Over the long period of history there were scribes who made minor errors here or there, or sometimes inserted something to provide clarification on something they thought was unclear (the Koran suffers similar problems or defects, but I'll save that for that discussion next). However, thanks to the work of the Holy Spirit, and the divine providence of God, we have been provided thousands of copies of the New Testament manuscripts that go back even to the second century in some cases. We also have copies from a geographically broad spectrum, too. Therefore, through the science of textual criticism, it is quite easy for scholars to know exactly what the original source documents said. There is a very small percentage (less than 4% is the figure, I think) of the text in which there is any question as to the original wording (and this is usually something insignificant, such as did the text say "they are" vs. "they did" or something along those lines).
(to be continued)
January 12 - 2008
Jesus4me
john14-6
Prophet
When I (Khanson) assert that Bible is no more pure word of Almighty The-God but purposely infringed by the enemies of God (Satan), I mean it with some genuine reasons not a mere accusation. One of the shocking text of bible accuse The-God's Prophet Lot of Incestion which you call the word of God. Refer it by yourself: -
33: And they made their father drink wine that night, and the firstborn went in and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34: And it came to pass on the morrow that the firstborn said unto the younger, "Behold, I lay yesternight with my father. Let us make him drink wine this night also, and go thou in and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father."
35: And they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36: Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father {21st Century King James Version Genesis 19:33 – 35}.
No wonder incestion among most westerners come from the inspiration of this erroneous so called biblical verse. Would you still call it the word of god? You should be purifying your holy book from unholy accusations and purifying yourselves in the court of Almighty The-God who is ONE and WHO is the Master of the Day of Judgement.
May Almighty The-God Guide You All (A'men).
January 12 – 2008
Jesus4me
If you keep aside your erroneous concept of Jesus being God or Jesus being son of God then we can concentrate on the teachings of Jesus. If you are a devout Christian you will find most of the teachings of Jesus in different versions of Bible (which are still intact) similar to what has been safeguarded in The-Qur’an.
Such commonalities of Jesus teachings are to be found and could be practiced without any problems.
The bottom of the truth remains that "The-God is one, He begets NOT, nor is He begotten and there can never be anyone like His Almighty The-God". We as Monotheistic believers in The-God would never agree to man made assertions. The concept of trinity in itself was introduced after the departure of Jesus Christ. Whatever writings and example you and your colleagues gave about the ID of Jesus are all manmade. The fact remains that Jesus Christ (PBUH) is still the Unique Messenger Prophet of God and he shall return to the earth as human and to die as human.
Mind you, God Never Dies.
If you still persist on man-made trials and errors then follow that concept with your version of Bible as per your will. Who knows, you can also come out with your own version.
At this point I could only say "Your religion is with you and my religion is with me". Let us not hate each other but let us tolerate each other and keep the door for the conveyance of guidance open through dialogue. Who knows you may become a great monotheist like Cat Stevens, Cassius Clay, Murad Hoffman and many others who reap the benefits of Almighty The-God’s love in this world and the world hereafter.
I have many evangelical friends with whom I share teachings of Jesus Christ which Almighty The-God taught in through The-Qur’an. We seek similarities and try to make the surrounding more peaceful and co-existive.
January 12 - 2008
John 14-6:
You commented to me with the following text:
"I don't know what you mean by "1000 versions" of the Bible. There is *one* version of the Bible. There are many *translations* - this is because the original languages such as Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew are spoken by very few people today or are nearly extinct languages. Therefore, yes, the Bible has been "translated" into many, many languages".
First of all, all the translations (if you say so) would differ from the original because the original Aramaic words would not necessarily have the same words in English or the other translated languages. The Bible was first translated in Greek which is not the language of Jesus Christ and from Greek it got translated in to Latin and from there English became the largest translated version. You can imagine, the translated would never be the original. There exist 1000 versions of Bible today and many are in the process of evolution.
Secondly, all the translated versions differ in their key assertions with varying places of diversity though serum of the text may look the same. An ordinary Christian would not find the difference but a religious Christian alarmed by the difference would look for the different versions and would be displeased to see the diversity in the text as I am now.
If you want to pinpoint the differences on each version of the bible, I can do it for you but this is not the forum where time, space and tolerance for the writings will be allowed. However, radically different versions are for your reference to grasp if you can. Few of the examples are: -
21st Century King James Version, American Standard Version, Amplified Bible, Contemporary English Version, Darby Translation, Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition, English Standard Version, Holman Christian Standard Bible, King James Version, New American Standard Bible, New Century Version, New International Reader's Version, New International Version, New International Version – UK, New King James Version, New Life Version, New Living Translation, The Message, Today's New International Version, Worldwide English (New Testament), Wycliffe New Testament, and Young's Literal Translation.
By the way, The-Qur’an has no different versions and it has one text that remains in Arabic original. However, for the greater understanding of the people, translations were permitted in different languages with a condition that original text shall stay side by side. Different translators could use different words for the same Arabic text and it could change the meaning. That would not be the justice for the Divine Book of The-God.
Whenever, a text from God is infringed with human hands and mind, it is no more a God’s word. That is where Christian zealots made human prophet as son of god, or god and all in one as trinity. The – God is absolute and no one can be like him from his creations.
khanson, the Word of God, The Bible, declares in John 3:16-
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-17 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
khanson, if you want to trully follow God, and be righteous in God's sight - God, the Creator of Heaven, Earth, and the Universe, then you need to come to Him by faith in His One and Only Son Jesus Christ the Messiah Immanuel. You had mentioned that everyone has a choice. After the evidence and facts given to you not only by myself but by other brother and sisters in the Lord, you need to make a choice. Who will you serve this day? Is not the Biblical, historical, and archaelogical evidence enough proof for you to believe that Christ Jesus is the Son of God, the Promised Savior of the world, and the Only Way to God?
I as well as I am sure others on this board are urging you in love to repent of your sins, accept Jesus Christ as the Mediator between you and God our Creator, accept Him (Jesus Christ) as the Only Way, the Truth and the Life, ask Him to forgive you of your sins, and follow Him.
John 14:6 declares:
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
khanson, as you can see, the Promised Land Israel was promised to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; thru them, Israel, God's Promised Land was given to the Israelites (Jewish people). Thru Abraham's, Isaac, Jacob, and David's family line, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and Savior of the world was to be born, and it so happened just as God has promised. In the Book of the Prophet Isaiah, there is a Messianic Prophesy concerning Immanuel - (God with us) Which is a direct prophesy to Jesus Christ the Messiah. The Book Of Hebrews refers to Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to dwell with us. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. This is why, He (Jesus Christ is also referred to as the (Lamb of God, or the Lamb that was slain). God our Creator accepts no other standard except absolute perfection. Because the ONLY ABSOLUTELY PERFECT ONE is HE, HE sent HImself in the form of a Man (His Son, Jesus Christ) to dwell with us (Immanuel). You see, it was God's Plan ever since the beginning when sin entered the world thru Adam, in the Garden of Eden to reetore His relationship with His Creation-man (men and women alike). When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they realized they were naked, and hid from God. God, shed the first blood for remission of sins, and clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins to clothe their nakedness. You see, the first animal sacrifice was done in the Garden of Eden after the fall of man into depraved sinful behavior, and mankind has been born into sin ever since the beginning. In order for man to be righteous before God, God instituted a sacrificial system in the Jewish Law as a sign of what was to come - The Ultimate Sacrifice and Shedding of Blood for sins - The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ Messiah Immanuel (God with Us). And just like God promised, He delivered. No one killed Jesus Christ on the Cross. He gave Himself willingly. He knew it had to be done. Because God demands absolute perfection, There was no other Way, except for Jesus Christ to shed His Prescios Blood. The sins of the world were bore on Jesus Christ as He gave up His Life on the Cross, all the sin of man was imputed upon Him. He died, resurrected on the third day after conquering hell and death, and now sits at the Right Hand of the Father God.
khanson, please do not be angry, but accept the facts and the TRUTH:
Genesis 21:12
But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called.
Genesis 21:11-13 (in Context) Genesis 21 (Whole Chapter
Genesis 25:11
And it came to pass, after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac. And Isaac dwelt at Beer Lahai Roi.
Genesis 25:10-12 (in Context) Genesis 25 (Whole Chapter
Exodus 3:15
Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’
Exodus 3:14-16 (in Context) Exodus 3 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 3:16
Exodus 6:8
And I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as a heritage: I am the LORD.’”
Exodus 6:7-9 (in Context) Exodus 6 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 32:13
Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’”
Exodus 32:12-14 (in Context) Exodus 32 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 33:1
[ The Command to Leave Sinai ] Then the LORD said to Moses, “Depart and go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘To your descendants I will give it.’
Exodus 33:1-3 (in Context) Exodus 33 (Whole Chapter)
Leviticus 26:42
then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;I will remember the land.
Leviticus 26:41-43 (in Context) Leviticus 26 (Whole Chapter)
khanson, do not be angry, but accept the TRUTH!
Isaiah 7:13-14 (New King James Version)
13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.[b]
Footnotes:
b.) Isaiah 7:14 Literally God-With-Us
The message of all the prophets and messengers has been "THERE IS NO DEITY BUT THE-GOD AND I AM THE MESSENGER OF GOD". Such a message started by Adam who told this to everyone of his children born to him and such was the message of Noah, Abraham, David, Moses, Jesus and of Muhammad (PBUT) where the coming of human messengers finalised.
Today there are seven billion humans stuck to their theory of religions but the truth is the one who worships ONE-GOD, the God of Adam. Other than The-God, other deities are human creations and The-Creator Lord The-God would not forgive such transgressors and idolators.
People shall worship The-Creator not his creatures - that makes genuine sense.
Well, every human got a choice, whatever choice one makes, faces the consequence in this world and on the Day of Judgement. May God Help Us All (A'men).
And again, khanson, please don't get angry with the Truth of God's Word.
Hebrews 1 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Hebrews 1
God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?[c]
And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]
7 And of the angels He says:
“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”[f]
8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]
10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”[h]
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?[i]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Footnotes:
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits by Himself.
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits our.
Hebrews 1:5 Psalm 2:7
Hebrews 1:5 2 Samuel 7:14
Hebrews 1:6 Deuteronomy 32:43 (Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls); Psalm 97:7
Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
Hebrews 1:9 Psalm 45:6, 7
Hebrews 1:12 Psalm 102:25–27
Hebrews 1:13 Psalm 110:1
I don't know where khanson get the idea that God is talking about mohamed or Ishmael. It is clear that He is speaking to the Levites about Jesus. Jesus held many titles, counsellor, prince of peace, etc. including the title of God.
Jesus is the one who God is referring to in Deuteronomy when he says, "I will put my words in his Mouth". And Jesus claims to be speaking exactly what God told him, over and over. Start with the Gospel of John:
John 8:13-30:
The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
21Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
22This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"
23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[a] you will indeed die in your sins."
25"Who are you?" they asked.
"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26"I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."
27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
khanson--
I did not mean to confuse you. The misunderstanding here is the very wide gulf between what I know and what you know. Let me see if I can explain this concisely. Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. The Messiah, who he would be, the signs of his birth, his kingdom, his teaching, his authority, his relationship with the Father, etc, are all spelled out in detailed prophecies in the Old Testament.
The Messiah was to be a prophet, priest and king. The Jews had had prophet-priests (Moses), prophet-kings (David), etc, but never a prophet, priest and king. This is what Moses meant in Deuteronomy when he said one "greater" than himself would come. This is the Messiah. The role of the Messiah is prophet, priest and king. The *identity* of the Messiah, who he would be, where he would come from, that was all up for grabs. The Jews knew he would be very different. He would be unlike any other man. They knew he would be born in Bethlehem. He would be a descendant of David. Etc, etc, etc. But they were confused by other prophecies. In Daniel the Messiah is shown to not just be man, but the Son of God. He is shown to not only be one who will be prophet, priest and king, but he will carry the authority, glory and sovereign power of God himself. Yet, ironically, Isaiah says the Messiah will actually come in the role of a suffering servant, who will save his people from their sins and, as Daniel says, usher in a kingdom that will never have an end.
No one understood how all these things could come together in one man, until Jesus appeared. It was he who fulfilled the prophecies, and it was in his life and death and resurrection that the first Christians understood this. Jesus himself explained it to his disciples after his resurrection. The disciples in turn explained it to others. Paul spread this truth to every synagogue he entered throughout the Mediterranean.
I implore you to read Isaiah 53, just for starters, as there is no more direct prophecy of Christ that you can find. I defy any reasonable person to deny that it is about Christ. It's so specific that some people tried to claim it was written by Christians after the fact until the Nag Hamadi library (might have been Dead Sea Scrolls actually) turned up a copy of Isaiah written something like 200 years before Christ. And there was Isaiah 53 exactly as we have it today. Oops.
khanson--
You sound really confused, here. Or at least whatever you've been told by your Imams, or what you've read, has given you strange information that is not based on facts or evidence, none whatsoever.
I don't know what you mean by "1000 versions" of the Bible. There is *one* version of the Bible. There are many *translations* - this is because the original languages such as Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew are spoken by very few people today or are nearly extinct languages. Therefore, yes, the Bible has been "translated" into many, many languages.
I think, perhaps, you are confused because you misunderstand the Christian concept of "inspiration" due to the fact that you think the Koran was dictated by God through Gabriel. Christians do not view inspiration in the same way. The men who wrote the New Testament were "inspired" by the Holy Spirit moving through them. This does not mean, nor has any orthodox Christian group ever believed, that this meant "divine dictation" - as if God were sitting at the persons side dictating word for word and they simply wrote it down. Or that God held their hand and moved the pen. No. This is not how Christians view inspiration. They were men "carried along by the Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit *used* their own minds, their own talents, their own vocabulary, their own memories, insights, etc, to enable them to create what God wanted to convey to human beings. This means that what these men wrote, conveys their own emotions, their own memories, their own insights, their own frailties, etc. 2 Peter 1:21: "men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." or 2 Timothy 3:16-17:
"16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Your concept of inspiration is fundamentally different than the Christian concept of inspiration. Therefore it doesn't bother a Christian at all if they are reading a "translation" of God's word. It is assumed, or presumed, that the Holy Spirit can convey the truth of the original scripture in any language. And you will not find any scholarly disagreement with that from any orthodox branch of Christianity.
(to be continued)
john14-6
Strange comments that prophecy was for the coming of Prophet Jesus. While with one statement you claim Jesus as son of God, oops the god himself and with the other statement (now) now you say that Jesus was the promised Prophet of Old Testament.
Jesus was not like Moses and with all accounts Muhammad is like Moses what Bible forecasts. When God said "A Prophet among their bretheren {that bretheren is the sixty first generation of Abraham through Ishmael that is Muhammad}. When God said "like Unto Thee" Muhammad fits all historical accounts to fit into the Moses not The-Jesus. When God Says "I will put my words in his Mouth" it meant the Prophet will speak only what God would convey to him.
God conveyed Muhammad "The Whole Qur'an". It does not contain any word from Muhammad and the miracle in Muhammad was that he was unlettered. By the Mercy of God, he could remember "The-Qur'an" and by that Mercy: Millions of Muslims remember The-Qur'an and no one could adulterate or interfere with.
If Bible is to be remembered today, one must muster 1000 versions though no one has come forward yet who could have mustered even one version of Bible. This is the sign that humans have infringed with Bible and changed it.
What I conceive now is we would continue the written debate but may not reach an end point unless you guys read certain books specificallywritten on the issue. Following is the reference you guys should read first then we can go further on the issue:
CHOICE - Islam and Christianity - Volume One By Ahmed Deedat
CHOICE - Islam and Christianity - Volume Two By Ahmed Deedat
khanson--
No Christian or anyone else besides Muslims agrees that Mohammed was the "last" prophet. In fact, Mohammed was no prophet at all. If you want to get into a detailed discussion about this, I'll be glad to have one. However, your constant claims that the Bible is in error, or how can we know what it says because of all the translations, are just ridiculous challenges. I could go on for page after page about the reliability of the gospels, the accuracy of the gospels, the quality of the manuscript evidence, the numbers of copies of the manuscripts, their quality, textual criticism, etc, etc, etc. But this seems a needless recitation at this point. Christians know the facts, even if Muslims refuse to look. Just because Imam's say "the Christians' Bible is full of errors" or "how can they know which translation" this or that, doesn't carry any more authority than if they tell you sky isn't blue, and you agree with them. It doesn't change the *fact* that the sky is quite objectively blue. Christians have history, archaelogy, and *facts* on their side for the authenticity and truthfulness of their scripture. Muslims don't, in fact, have any of these on their side for the Koran.
Jesus called himself the "Alpha and the Omega", the beginning and the end. He is the *last* prophet, in the sense of Jewish prophetic tradition. There are no prophets after Jesus, because he was the Messiah. Jesus authenticated his prophecy, his authority, and his claims with miracles. Mohammed did nothing of the kind. He was not a prophet except by his own declaration.
Prophet: Look what Almighty The-God said in Bible:
"And as for Ish'-ma-el, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation {Old Testament - Genesis: 18: 20}.
The children of Abraham through Ishmael are great nation of Arabs. But you are distracting your consciousness and deny what Bible said about the first born son of Messenger Prophet Abraham. Do not behave like the one who is filled with hatred against Ishmael. Ishmael was the son of Abraham and a prophet like Isaac and we do not differentiate among them.
Because The Last Messenger Prophet Muhammad is the sixty first child of Abraham through Ishmael, you guys discriminate against him. Well, Muhammad is The Last Messenger Prophet of God and The-Qur'an is the last Testament of God. Even you would continue to deny the truth, but the true stands tall till we meet on the day of Judgement. Almighty The-God would decide the truth on that day and the denyers would only lick their wounds to hellfire for their deniance.
Jester--Aren't you confusing intolerance with a claim on truth? Jesus claimed to know God in a way that no one else did/does. From that claim, he claimed that only his offer of grace with repentance and commitment in trust was sufficient to bring one into relationship with God. How is a claim of that kind intolerant?
Continued to khanson:
Colossians 1:15 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Please note: This Scripture is referring to Jesus Christ our Messiah.
John 1:1-5 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
John 1
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.
Footnotes:
John 1:5 Or overcome
Please note again, this Scripture is also referring to Jesus Christ THE Messiah as well.
And again, khanson, please don't get angry with the Truth of God's Word.
Hebrews 1 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Hebrews 1
God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?[c]
And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]
7 And of the angels He says:
“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”[f]
8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]
10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”[h]
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?[i]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Footnotes:
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits by Himself.
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits our.
Hebrews 1:5 Psalm 2:7
Hebrews 1:5 2 Samuel 7:14
Hebrews 1:6 Deuteronomy 32:43 (Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls); Psalm 97:7
Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
Hebrews 1:9 Psalm 45:6, 7
Hebrews 1:12 Psalm 102:25–27
Hebrews 1:13 Psalm 110:1
John 14:9 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
khnason, you please don't get angry, but you please face the truth. This is what Jesus Christ the Messiah says:
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
khanson--
I'm quite aware of the truth about Jesus. He is the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah. He is the Christ, the Anointed One. He is God's beloved Son. He is the second person of the Trinity. He is the Word made flesh who dwelt among us. He is the firstborn of all creation. He is the very image of God. He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is the one who will come again to judge the living and the dead. He is the one who conquered death and gives me new life through faith in him.
Oh, I understand who Jesus is, quite well, thank you very much. I urge you to find out who Jesus is, too - for his is "the only name by which men can be saved." Get to know Jesus.
Proph,
you said "Otherwise, He would have said "I am one of the ways, one of the truths, and one of those who represent life. No one come to the Father, but by me....and a few other people..."
hahaha...very well put. Jesus was the epitome of intolerance. but he was also the example of how to be intolerant in love. you can do that, you know...
khanson--
The quote from Deuteronomy in the Bible is a prophecy about the Jewish Messiah. This prophet was Jesus (the Messiah being prophet, priest and king). It's silly to claim that this was said about Mohammed. Mohammed was a descendant of Ishmael and Ishmael was not the one who was given God's covenant, but Issac was. The New Testament also makes reference to this prophecy in Deuteronomy in regards to Jesus. However, this is what the Bible says about Ishmael, and it seems this applies as a perfect prophecy in regards to what the Muslim religion has done in setting its adherents against everyone else:
Genesis 11-12:
11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:
"You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael, [a]
for the LORD has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward [b] all his brothers."
Ishmael's descendants are adherents of Islam and it certainly has shown them to live in hostility to all their brothers ("infidels", who Muslims regard as less than human). I'll address your statements about the Koran and the New Testament in a separate post.
Christians believe Jesus to be the promised Son of God through the hundreds of prophecies of the old testament that He alone fulfilled. Jews and Muslims believe Him to be a mere prophet. And so, there is the schism that separates, and always will separate, the Christians, Jews, and Muslims. That will not be overcome without the compromise of one belief or another, or all beliefs. I do see that happening as the one world religion is birthed, and a watered down, compromised, false religion is created. Jesus taught us tolerance in the aspect that we should love one another, even those who do not agree with us. But He did not teach compromise. Otherwise, He would have said "I am one of the ways, one of the truths, and one of those who represent life. No one come to the Father, but by me....and a few other people..."
Sarah was upset over Ishmael and Hagar and wanted them removed. But Abraham didn't want to. God told Abraham (Genesis 21) "Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or becasue of your bndwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice, or in Isaac your seed whall be called. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed."
Yes, God blessed Hagar, but not with the promise that her son's seed would bring forth the Messiah. He just made the Ishmaelites a great nation. That's as far as the Ishmaelites involvement in this story goes.
khanson,
Try not to take scripture out of context.
In Deuteronomy 18, God is speaking to the Levites. In verse 15 He says "The Lord your God will rais up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethern (Levite brothers)...."
So, it has nothing to do with Ishmaelites. Ishmael was the slave born son of Abraham, and was cast aside. Isaac was the son of promise that God fulfilled his prophecy through. If I am not mistaken, the Muslim faith can be traced back to Ishmael, which, as I said earlier, was not the promised son of Abraham. He was a cast off. He was Abraham's attempt to fulfill God's promise to him. And all he did was cause problems, until Abraham sent him and his mother away.
john14-6
Do not be upset and angry but face the truth. On the Day of Judgment, Almighty The-God would converse with Messenger Prophet Jesus about present day evangelical claims about him. The-God already warned the people by giving this forecast in The-Qur'an: -
GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?' ". He (Jesus) will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your (Lord's) thoughts. You know all the secrets. "I (as Jesus) told them only what You commanded me to say that: `You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my life on earth, You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things."If You punish them, they are Your constituents. If You forgive them, You are the Almighty, Most Wise." {The Qur'an - The Table Spread 05: 116 - 118}.
Still if you do not realize the truth about Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) then no one can help you except and If Almighty The-God guides you. My job was to convey the truth - so did I (A'men).
john14-6
Please do not get hurt if I speak the truth right from The-Bible. Take in to reference the following verse about The Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him). God said to Moses (PBUH):-
"I will raise them (Children of Abraham) a Prophet from among their brethren (Ishmalites) like unto thee (O Moses), and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him {Deuteronomy 18: 18}.
"And The-Book (Qur'an) is delivered to him that is not learned (Muhammad was unlettered). Saying Read this, I pray thee: and He saith, I am not learned {Isaiah 29: 12}.
"Read, (O MUhammad) in the name of your Lord, who created. He created man from an embryo. Read, and your Lord, Most Exalted. Teaches by means of the pen. He teaches man what he never knew. Indeed, the human transgresses {The Qur'an - Sura - 96 The Embryo (Al-`Alaq)}.
Indeed human transgresses, my plea is that you do not trangress, do not be upset, find the truth from the non-interfered text of Bible and read The-Qur'an to be truly guided.
John14-6:Thanks for the correction! That is certainly the case in his latter ministry and in the resurrection.
theotek--
I think maybe you misunderstood my main point. I wasn't suggesting (or I did a poor job of stating it) that Jesus didn't give people the option of choosing him or not. What I meant (and again, maybe it wasn't clear or I did a poor job of stating it) was that according to the New Testament, what Jesus claims about himself, doesn't leave the option for anyone to think that *Jesus* thought he was just a prophet. Jesus didn't claim to be just a prophet. Therefore anyone can believe whatever they want about him - and it's up to them to come to him and place their faith in him as Lord and Savoir, or not - but Jesus himself makes it pretty clear he equates himself with God, and thinks he is God (the Messiah). That's what I was trying to say.
John 14-6 -- No, Jesus did give people options. He forced no one to accept his words, claims, teaching, or deeds. He allowed his detractors to crucify him. He offered justification for his words and claims with actions that backed them up. He offered further justification in the resurrection. It is important that we remember that salvation and gospel are "offered," not forced upon others. The approach of dialog between Christians and Muslims is in the spirit of Jesus' manner of addressing people in his own day. Dialog can build relationship and initiate discussion. This is the way Jesus himself interacted.
Jesus didn't give anyone the option of considering him a prophet. He never claimed to be a prophet, or *just* a prophet, and no one ever claimed this for him afterwards except his enemies. Jesus claims to the be the Son of Man. This is a reference to the Messiah in Daniel 7:13-14:
Daniel 13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
The Son of Man is here shown to be equal to God, he was given all *glory*, *authoriy*, and *sovereign power* - these are the *honors* of God himself. It says the Son of Man is *worshipped* by "all peoples, nations and men of every language". Worship is reserved for the Lord God alone. Yet the Father is granting this authority and honor to the Son. This is proof not just for the divinity of the Messiah, and his equality with God, but the concept of the Trinity, too.
The very fact that God became flesh, in the incarnation of Jesus, is neither blasphemous nor inconceivable (unless you're a Muslim, I suppose). God became one of us, to live like us, to take on the burden we couldn't carry - to live the sinless life we couldn't - and therefore become the perfect atoning sacrifice to free us from our sin. All of this is spelled out in the prophecies of the Old Testament, start with Isaiah 53. The Messiah is the suffering servant, who would free his people from their transgression.
The Christian and Jewish God is *not* the same as "Allah", in my view. They share no common attributes except the fact that Mohammed claimed they were the same. That's not proof, however, and it's also where any similarities end. YHWH, the LORD, the Almighty God, I AM THAT I AM, is a god of love, compassion, justice and mercy. He demonstrated his love was so great, that he came to live as one of us, lead a perfect and sinless existence among us, show us the "kingdom", and die a horrible death as an atoning sacrifice to save us all. This is the supreme act of compassion and love. Sorry, but "Allah" is nothing like YHWH, and in my view they are not the same God. I don't mean to offend or insult you, simply to present an argument for the truth of Christianity and why I find Islam false. (Only one faith's message can be true, not both, since their messages contradict one another).
khanson--
I'm very sorry you can't see past your own religious biases. I gave you plenty of Biblical references and my exegesis isn't faulty - my exegesis comes from reading the words plainly that are right there on the page. My exegesis also is in line with all of the best scholarly exegesis out there. Even so called agnostic or liberal theologians and scholars rarely argue against the fact that Jesus thought he was God (even if they refuse to believe he was God as Christians believe). All Christians are doing is taking Jesus at his word. But few scholars disagree that at least the text itself expressly says and indirectly implies numerous and repeated times, that Jesus believed he was God.
A very good book, "Putting Jesus in His Place", proposes the "H.A.N.D.S." acronym for proving the divinity of Jesus in the New Testament and it's quite a good way to demonstrate it. Jesus has the:
Honors of God. (e.g. He receives worship from his disciples and accepts it, etc)
Attributes of God.
Names of God (e.g., repeatedly is identified as "I AM", Son of Man, Son of God, LORD, etc.)
Deeds of God (e.g., his miracles over disease, demonic spirits, nature, and over death itself.)
Seat of God (he repeatedly is said to share the throne, or seat of God, receiving all glory and authority, as the Son, as testified by the Old Testament prophecies of Daniel, etc).
You need to read the Bible and actually see what it says - study the Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah, from Genesis, to the Psalms, to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Daniel (not to mention the minor prophets - Hosea, Micah, Zechariah, etc) all speak about the Messiah and his attributes. One need only study these briefly to see their fulfillment in Jesus Christ, to understand that Jesus is not just a prophet but the incarnation of God in flesh. And it is not blasphemy to suggest God came to earth in human form, but I'll save that for another post.
What happened to RBB’s posts? His was the only interesting conversation in this joint and now they’re all gone.
John 14:9 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 1:1-5 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
John 1
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.
Footnotes:
John 1:5 Or overcome
Hebrews 1 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Hebrews 1
God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?[c]
And again:
“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]
7 And of the angels He says:
“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”[f]
8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]
10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”[h]
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?[i]
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Footnotes:
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits by Himself.
Hebrews 1:3 NU-Text omits our.
Hebrews 1:5 Psalm 2:7
Hebrews 1:5 2 Samuel 7:14
Hebrews 1:6 Deuteronomy 32:43 (Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls); Psalm 97:7
Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
Hebrews 1:9 Psalm 45:6, 7
Hebrews 1:12 Psalm 102:25–27
Hebrews 1:13 Psalm 110:1
Colossians 1:15 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
This is referring to Jesus Christ our Messiah.
It is good to see some attempt being made at dialogue. We will go much further with dialogue than we will ever get with argumentation. Perhaps Mohler and company cannot accept the truth that atrocities (Crusades) occurred in the name of Christianity, but it is high time someone made some kind of recognition to that fact. We like to paint the Muslim world with a broad brush as extreme and violent, yet Christian history can be painted with the very same brush (Remember Hitler that had the sanction of the church in Germany). Neither is an appropriate characterization of either religion, nor God's highest will as understood in either religious tradition.
khanson--You make essentially the same argument against Jesus' divinity as the Jews of Jesus' own day. One point you might consider, however, is that by "son of God," the Biblical text means that Jesus is God (appeared in flesh, but God in character/identity). This is not the same as a second personality, but a second representation of the same one. Iconography and traditional popular Christianity has not always been clear on that, but the idea of trinity is not three gods. It is rather three aspects or faces of the one same God. That is why we refer in Latin the three Persona (masks used by one actor to represent different faces or characters).
Khanson,
You asked, “Muslims believe in Ten Commandmends - could you bring Jews, Christians and Muslims together on those commandmends.”
Well,… no. For one thing, most Christians don’t know the Ten Commandments, and second, no one (Jew, Christian, or Muslim) is following them much anyway, so there won’t be much togetherness based the Ten Commandments. But if anyone wants to try… hey, I’ll take Tim Horton's French Vanilla Cap any day.
RBB,
You have already deemed me a heretic in previous posts, so you need not assume I am a Christian.
Since “Allah” and “God” are titles, not personal names (kind of like “President” is a title, where “George W. Bush” is a name), your question can be reworded either as – “Do you think that “God” (in Arabic) and “God” (in English) are the same?”, or it could be, “Do you think that the God of Islam and God of Christianity are the same?” The first one I’d answer, yes. The second one I’d answer, no. But I have to wonder why you could not figure these answers out from my post, since both answers were implied in that post. The answer to your other question, “Do you think that Jesus is the only way to come to God and be saved, and that He is God?” is also implied in that post, so I won’t bother answering it. I’m sorry my use of “Insha'Allah” confused you, but then it wasn’t meant for you either.
And I think I’ll leave the reading of Hagee’s books to you. He may have a few good things to say, but I can’t in good conscience support the bombing of Iran, and the initiation of an apocalyptic war against Islam, that stuff is just not Christian.
John 1:1-3 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
So?
Read verses 14 and 15:
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."
So, the Word was God, and the Word became flesh (Jesus Christ)......so Jesus is God, and the Son of God.
Oglefam,
If you don't believe in the deity of Christ, than please refrain from using His Word (the Holy BIble). Otherwise, I will use it to prove that Jesus is God.
Coming together on the 10 commandments, nice. but who here can keep them? and once we break even one of them we are condemned. so who is going to save us from this condemnation? only jesus christ. now the muslims along with the jews believe that by doing good works we can somehow undo the bad. which doesnt make sense. on what basis does allah forgive? by good works. how many good works does one have to do before they undo the bad they have done? herein lies the difference between the God of the bible and the God of islam.
the God of the bible seeing that we cannot save ourselves pities us and pays our penalty by coming in the flesh and paying the penalty of our sins so that Gods wrath is satisfied leaving us with the free gift of Gods pardon in Christ which is received by faith alone.
The God of islam however forgives, but based on what i know, if the good is more than the bad deeds you are 'forgiven'. but is there any justice in this? God who is supposed to be just and holy looking the other way just because we have repented! justice has nothing to do with mercy. so who pays the penalty? without the Christ, the lamb of God who taketh the sin of the world, each and every individual has to pay the penalty for their own sins.
so there lies a huge difference between what we mean by God. the God of the bible and the God of islam arent the same.
if Christ is a messenger/prophet then shouldnt you accept everything he said? but then u claim that the scriptures were distorted. this is laughable. if you did some research you will find that this isnt true. the manuscripts were preserved without many changes. do the research if you want and be prepared to find out that you are wrong.
'A normal human like you cannot make the difference what is correct and what is human addition.' - going by this how can you say that the koran is reliable? and if this is the case you should never even quote the bible because you dont know which is which.
Jesus Christ is God. He came to earth as God in the flesh (God incarnate; all God, and all man), was tempted, but yet was found sinless; was crucified; shed His Blood for the atoning of the World's sins, and was resurrected from the dead on the third day. Jesus Christ, is the One and Only Son of God; God has made it clear that He (Jesus Christ/Messiah) is the one and only way to heaven. He is God, part of the Triune Godhead Father/Son, and Holy Spirit, and to call Him anything less is blasphemy. God provided One way to Him. Jesus Christ is THE Only Way.
Only God can profess what Jesus Christ said, He is not just another "prophet", or "messenger"; He is God:
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Matthew 7:13
[ The Narrow Way ] “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Matthew 7:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 7:14
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 13:24
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:23-25 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
didymus
Muslims believe in Ten Commandmends - could you bring Jews, Christians and Muslims together on those commandmends. It will be a good idea by serving Tim Horton's French Vanilla to everone who attends.
Oglefam
I confess that Jesus Christ is the unique Messenger Prophet of Almighty The-God and I believe in his teachings mentioned in the divine text of Bible and The-Qur'an. But I am not contributing a single atom to say that he is god or son of god - for me that is blasphemy against The-God who created us all.
For the sake of argument, if a son was needed then Adam would have deserved more to be his son because he ws the first creation and already in heaven. God never begets nor is he begotten and Bible says "There is no one like Him".
RBB
Almighty The-God exists whether one likes it or rejects it. The-God in Arabic is Alloh/Allah which is only single and it has no plural. Hebrew is very close to Arabic and Alloh in Hebrew is Elohim while in Amrams it is Yahweh. No matter who worships God, it is the same God of Adam. But very same God is characterised by its attributes like Sustainer, Creator, Forgiver and Redeemer etc., which may have corresponding translations in Arabic, Hebrew and Amram.
But the difference appears when people make and draw graven images of God. The Biblical command that "though shall not draw graven image of God" has been neglected by majority of Christian evangelicals and they have drawn the image of God into a humanistic picture. This is certainly against Bible. If you call that image God and worship - that is not correct, but it is your choice, and consequence is yours.
john14-6
Your exegesis from the mentioned biblical verses are the result of your zealosity. The-God is omnipotent and Super. He does not need to come down in human shape and live like human i.e. eat, deficate and suffer etc. The-God's criteria is to order and it shall be. You have degraded God into human being and you have transgressed in claiming Jesus as God. No wonder, it is the result of 1000 different versions of bible coerced by the zealots and the original was lost. I do recognize Bible as the-book of God but human interferences have adultrated it. A normal human like you cannot make the difference what is correct and what is human addition.
In recognizing Almighty The-God as single supreme authority and considering Jesus as Messenger Prophet of Almighty The-God, you will be a genuine Christian and assuredly face the day of judgement truthfully and humbly. Otherwise, I am afraid for you. I would pray for your guidance, may God help you as per your intention. Your intention should be truth - nothing but the divine truth.
RBB,
You asked about Hagee’s newest book, I haven’t read it. Most of my opinion about him comes from YouTube clips and CUFI related articles. What I’ve seen and heard is kind of scary. What makes you want to read his book?
Insha'Allah basically means: God willing, if it is God’s will, or something along those lines. I looked it up and wiki has some interesting notes on it. (Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insha'Allah ) It has an Islamic context (which I knew already), and wiki mentions:
“Usage of Insha'Allah derives from Islamic scripture, Surat Al Kahf (18):24 : "And never say of anything, 'I shall do such and such thing tomorrow. Except (with the saying): 'If Allah wills!' And remember your lord when you forget..."
But I’ve seen Christians use it as well in a similar context (think of James 4:13-15)
(Continued)
Another in John 14:8: Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"
Clear as a bell. Jesus is claiming to be God. Anyone who has seen Jesus, has seen God. I don't know how it could get any clearer, actually. Jesus never claimed to be a "prophet" and no one received him or understood him that way. He claimed to be the Messiah, the Anointed One before the throne of Ancient of Days, the Son of Man (Daniel 7:13-14), he attributed the name of God (I AM) to himself repeatedly - this is spelled out clearly and repeatedly in John's gospel (John 8:58, John 10:30, John 14:8-9). He told the High Priest he was God and would be his judge on the Day of the Lord (Mark 14:61-62). I could go on and on, and cite many other examples both direct and implied in the gospels, but I'm out of space here. And this leaves out the entire rest of the New Testament (the letters of Paul, the letters of John, the letters of Peter, the letter to the Hebrews which clearly spells it out in detail, etc.) I encourage you to actually read the New Testament, and to read the prophecies of the Messiah. There is no one who can read Isaiah 53 and honestly attribute it to anyone other than Jesus. There are hundreds of Old Testament prophecies pointing to the Messiah, and the Messiah is clearly an equal with God. He is the "Son" and all power and authority of the Father are vested in him. Read the Bible.
khanson--
Jesus most definitely considered himself "God". Jesus says, in John 8:58:
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!".
Note Jesus says, "I am". He doesn't say, "I was", past tense, he says, "I AM", the name God gave to Moses from the burning bush when he asked God his name. In Greek, "ego emei", the same in the Greek translation of the Jewish Old Testament, the Septuagint for the name of God in Exodus. Jesus is claiming to be God, using the name of God. The fact that this meaning is understood is proven in the following verse where the Jews try to stone him. He is claiming to be God.
Again, Jesus claims divinity in his trial before the Sanhedrin - Mark 14: 61
But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[f] the Son of the Blessed One?"
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
It doesn't get any clearer. The High Priest asks Jesus if he is the Son of God. Again, "ego emei", I AM. The Son of Man reference is to Daniel 7:13-14. Jesus is claiming to be the Son of Man - the Anointed One - the Messiah - in Daniel's prophetic vision. Jesus is telling Caiaphas that not only is he the Messiah, but he will be his judge on the Day of the Lord, that's the "coming on the clouds of heaven" reference. The fact that Caiaphas tears his robes apart shows he understands this, and this is why Jesus is condemned.
The conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4:25-26:
25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
And here in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
It doesn't get any clearer than this, that Jesus is claiming to be God - equal to God.
khanson--dude or dudette, which ever the case.
Yeshua said in Matthew 10:32-34 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven."
didymus-- not at all. There are some questioning issues I have concerning Mr. Hagee, especially in his last book. I don't expect through mere words to change the mind or belief of anyone. I believe scripture to be true and I trust the Holy Spirit to teach me its truths according to 1 John 2:27. I also am not so hard headed as to not understand that God does and will use others on my lifes path to teach me his truth. All the teachings of man are to be tested through scripture. Those found to be good and true, kept: those found to not be good or false, discarded. Do I have a dislike for Muslims or any others of non-Christian belief? Certainly not. Is it my job to convert them? Certainly not. My command is to live my life seeking to be holy, without sin, able to teach, and righteous as is he who gives me life each day, God. I slip many times as Yeshua knew I would, but he grants me mercy and grace upon my repentance. The purpose? Eternity with him and living in such a way that there is a clear difference to those who cross my path who may be persuaded.
Oglefam,
Are you a John Hagee fan? A supporter of CUFI?
khanson,
Concerning your point with Matthew 27:46 (and that chapter 27, not 28, of Matthew), this issue got worked out way back in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century with the Trinity, the Arian controversy, and the Nicene Creed. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Insha'Allah.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
RBB,
You asked, “Would you care to list some examples of moderate Muslim leaders going public, and condemning any of the things I've listed, or others. … Also if you have any moderate Muslim websites you'd like to suggest that contradict what's written on the sites I've listed please post links for them.”
Sure. I’d recommend the site of those 138 Muslim leaders to whom the evangelicals responded to, mentioned in the article above. http://www.acommonword.com/
Also, there is my local Muslim community. Here is their online newsletter thingy: http://www.muslim-forum.org/ (hmm… from one of the articles it looks like many of them are Ron Paul supporters, another article… they don’t like Romney). I met the Imam, Farid Farooqi, of Utah’s largest mosque earlier last year at a talk he gave on Islam, and plan one of these Fridays to visit the mosque. Interesting guy, he handled himself pretty well and tried his best when an extreme left feminist audience member denounced him for being … well… way too conservative for her.
I recommend you do something similar – look up your local Muslim community and go visit, talk with the Imam, have a conversation, go out for coffee, make a new friend (but don’t denounce them for being conservative).
You can also check out Islamica Magazine and their links at http://www.islamicamagazine.com/
Also, thinking about it, I’ll recommend a movie… Paradise Now, Directed by Hany Abu-Assad. A wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Now It’s a film to think about, and try to understand.
I wonder about those who call Messenger Prophet Jesus Christ as God. Let us see what Gospel of Mathew 28:46 Says:
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, la-ma sa-bach-tha-ni? that is to say, My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?" {King James Bible - Mthew 28: 46}.
Is this not a clear indication that Jesus Christ was human created in the womb of Mother Mary and declared as Messenger Prophet of God to guide the children of Israel only. That is what and where The-Qur'an supports the Bible.
didymus, by the way, I did read both letters.
What I see here is the hand of God at work possibly beginning the close of this chapter of man’s existence. This cooperation between Muslims and Christians can only bring a false peace, maybe that which scripture speaks of in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 “For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.” This false peace could be a step in forming a world religion. If this religious effort captures the attention of world governments and appears to be working, I would bet the farm that there will be a leader some where who embraces this concept in order to formulate the same type of cooperation and coexistence in order to form a peaceful world government.
Could the woman who sits on the many waters in Rev. 17 represent a world religion deceiving millions upon millions who seek “common ground”? I don’t know I am no theologian. I don’t find this cooperation “evil” as didymus puts it, but I do find it interesting and worthy of discerning believers attention relating to Gods’ possible will for current histories conclusion. As for embracing this “common word” to bring peace or the hope of peace to the world, Yeshua said in Matthew 10:32-34 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.” This is the sword of truth not violence before someone accuses me of advocating Christian violence. Also, this “common word” is of man’s wisdom which as stated in 1 Corinthians 3:19 & 20 is: “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; and again, “The LORD knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” Couple this with 1 John 2:15-17: “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.” This “common word” and its response, to me, are men seeking peace to unify the world through this religious effort. Peace will not happen until Yeshua returns.
I believe this effort is, intentionally or not, meant by our adversary to further weaken Christianity by compromising our beliefs. How? By mans acknowledgement that Muslims and Christians believe in love and devotion to one God. What about Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness, Catholics, Jews, Hindu’s…where does it stop? Or does it continue until we are all one religion and belief? If this starts in our generation what will be the affect on future generations? I stand by my words in the earlier post. God will have no compromise.
RBB,
I just skimmed those sites a bit, talk about an education in propaganda, they are listening only to Muslim extremists and are basically calling all moderate Muslims “extremists”. We keep clamoring for moderate Muslims to speak up, but as soon as they do we say they don’t exist, that they are really all “extremists”, then we show what the extremists are saying and declare that universally all Muslims believe the extremism, and we continue clamoring for moderates to speak up (despite the fact that they just did).
Better to get an education on Islam from more neutral sources or even Islamic websites, not propaganda sites. Better yet, how about visiting a mosque and actually talking to the local imam to learn about Islam, you can even invite him to church afterwards if you like, they won’t do a jihad on you… at least not in the mosque. :^)
jesus4me,
You’re back! Long time no hear from. I thought you’d been raptured.
So, what’s your point with quoting John 14:6?
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Judaism, Christianity and Muslims share many common creeds, which all three trace back from Abraham (PBUH). The unity and integrity of Almighty "The-God" and forbiddance of graven images of Almighty "The-God" and worship of any other God than the Almighty "The-God", is forbidden in The Ten Commandments. Muslims respect and value Ten Commandments that are still intact in the Biblical text, though the Government in the United States forbids its public display.
Most western countries that advocate anti religion sentiments, which is a sad move for all of us, unfortunately we have been compelled to share this forbiddance. The combined efforts of Jews, Christians and Muslims in the western world with their commonalities in the religion of submission (Islam/Shalom) can contribute to the eradication of many evils, which are degrading the western communities. The matter of enhanced family life, sanctity of marriage, forbiddance of Usury, forbiddance of adultery, evils of alcoholism, drug addiction and sexual abuses are the few but main evils where our divine values are shared on equal terms which should be jointly imparted among our populations for the Mercy of Almighty "The-God" and avoidance of afflictions.
We should all ponder about our own creation, our own Creator Almighty Alloh (Ilohi/ Elohim), our own Messengers right from Adam and then see where we made mistakes and where lies the opportunity to resurrect and revert to righteousness. Without going in to the finer points of our beliefs, if we accept the Oneness of Almighty "The-God" and the common teachings of even present day Torah and Gospel, The Last Testament Qur’an provides a binding factor between Jews, Christians and Muslims atleast for the peace and tranquility among the children of Abraham.
As brothers and as children of Abraham, let us learn wisdom from Solomon (PBUH), let us not allow Yousuf (Joseph) among us to suffer, let us learn patience from Job (PBUH), let us learn lessons from the trials and knowledge of Moses (PBUH), let us not persecute Jesus for his message of Monotheism (PBUH) and finally atleast listen to the comprehensive code of life which Muhammad (SAW) cherished from his Creator Almighty Alloh ("The-God").
Let us find the cure of our diseases which trifurcate us from each and the other, let us find an answer in Abraham, Jesus, Moses and Muhammad (SAW) who worshipped One Almighty God.
I (Khanson) am confident that none will be hurt by this exercise but all would gain in terms of reduced pain, reduced afflictions, reduced killing, greater cooperation, greater understanding and greater unity among the children of Abraham.
There is always a hope in discussion, understanding, tolerance and respect for each other.
Judaism does believe in the Trinity. You'll find the reference to the plural God-Head found throughout the Old Testament.
The issue is whether a Jew accepts the Saviour that was already crucified, or if the Jew believes their Saviour has not yet come.
Musilims do not even accept the idea of a Messiah as Saviour. The Supreme Almighty God is not in need of a mediator. The Muslims do not recognize the plural God-Head nor the Son of God as Saviour. Very clear difference.
Okay, Oglefam, since you are accusing these evangelical leaders of compromising the Word, would you mind showing us where it is that they are compromising. Just cut and paste the evil portions here and tell us why. Thank you.
A copy of the “compromisers” document in question can be found right here: http://www.acommonword.com/lib/downloads/fullpageadbold18.pdf
God will have no compromise. Read what he allowed to his chosen each and every time they adopted the idol worship of their neighbors, conquered or captors. Jesus said in Matthew 15 that it is that which comes out of a man which defiles him and instructed his disciples to leave them alone. Blind are truely leading the blind in some evengelical circles and certainly in Muslim circles. Leave them alone, it is as God would have it. Some will say, "that is cold and all should have opportunity to accept Christ." Only those called by the Holy Spirit will be those who accept. All throughout the Old Testament God used godless people to carry out his will, he is doing so now.
It is important to remember that the Quran states Christians should rely on their word (Bible) as it confirms the message of Mohammad. Since a comparison reveals patent contradictions of the Biblical record in the Quran then it is critical to make those clear and highlight any misinformation in any Muslim attempt at dialogue. The fact that this may offend Muslims as it implies Allah is mistaken in his assertions is simply a clash of claimed truths.
The Muslim document is (perhaps unsurprisingly) a Muslim biased document that reflects Muslim belief and undermines the centrality of Jesus’ own claims about himself.
We simply agree to disagree but Christians should continue challenge the claims of Allah /Mohammad. For example pointing out basic errors such as the extraordinary mistake about the makeup of the trinity in the Quran, and the problem of revelation in the Quran regarding the satanic verses, that undermines the claim that the Quran is sourced from the Yahweh of the Bible.
RBB,
You asked, “How can Christians cooperate with voices and actions that do not exist?”
I’ve met quite a few moderate Muslim voices, which makes me wonder… are you listening. Also, considering this article, it sounds like there are quite a few moderate voices out there. Several of their leaders signed a call for dialogue to which several evangelical leaders (mentioned in the above article) and others have responded.
The Christian Evangelical leaders should change their hostile attitude against Muslims and must seek to respect Islam on the basis of its stand on Monotheistic God, and its recognition of all biblical prophets as prophets of Islam.
Not all Evangelical leaders are anti-Islamists but those who keep silence when Muslims are attacked, they too bear certain responsibilities. Evangelical Christians must cooperate with Muslims to eradicate terrorism which is still in budding stage among the radical Muslims.
A sympathetical and helpful cooperation with moderate Muslims would help bring unrgently needed peace in hot spots of the world and it would safeguard the interest of both communities all over the world.
Would anyone be so kind as to quote where exactly these evangelical leaders are being heretical, where they are compromising the Word.
Here again is the link to the offending document: http://www.acommonword.com/lib/downloads/fullpageadbold18.pdf
Please, if you would just copy and paste the evil portions here in the comments so I can see better what it is you guys find so offensive and compromising about this document, and let me know why.
ameer_r2,
It is true, Judaism and Islam don’t believe in the trinity or do not recognize a need for a savior; however, taking such a position does not prove them to be right. I agree that all people of faith should never use violence to solve their disagreements, but should seek to live in peace with one another despite their theological differences. History demonstrates that both Christianity and Islam have both committed inhumane acts upon its neighbors. To murder in the name of God is a concept that violates the express will and character of God himself. Today, many western nations do allow freedom of religion for its citizens but this cannot be said in predominately Muslim nations. How can dialogue and expression of speech be heard in these countries?
From a Christian’s perspective, we cannot compromise what we believe to be true and I am sure you feel the same way about your faith. It is possible to live in peace with one’s neighbor; many communities around the globe do live in relative peace. Difficulties arise when religious fanatics or political elites desire to gain ultimate control over their fellow man and begin implementing plans to make it a reality. We all need to learn how to love those whom we disagree with, period.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; - Matthew 5:44
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men –Romans 12:18
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: - Hebrews 12:14.
Part 2
Judaism and Islam both reject the concept of a Trinity or the need for a savior from original sin. Does this mean that they are not believers in the same deity even though they may differ regarding how they perceive the nature of the Creator?
Roman Catholicism tended to promote the idea that the Jews killed Christ and this produced a virulent and violent anti-Semitism that also continued in Protestantism with Luther.
Islam rejected Jesus as the son of God and the third person of the trinity but reveres him as a prophet and accepts the virgin birth but denies the crucifixion.
Christiandom made a jihad against Muslimdom and promoted the idea that killing the “infidel” was an obligation free of any sin and this included Jews as well. Islam, its Prophet and its holy scripture were maligned and insulted and rejected as false and the work of the devil. Today, Pat Robertson, Franklin Graham and their associates are of this class and preach their message outside of Muslim lands using this venom..
Chrisitian missionaries try a softer sell even though they may have similar beliefs but feel a positive approach about the value of the Christian message rather than attacking is abetter way to gain converts. Some monks in Algeria and elsewhere only serve the community without even talking about theolgical matters unless asked.
Despite the fact that Muslims feel that the oneness of God has been compromised by making Jesus the son of God and part of a trinity, we can respect the devotion of sincere Chrisitians but reject those who wish to use any and all methods to destroy Islam as a danger to mankind.
We are told to argue with the People of the Book in the best way.
Our common enemy is a militant atheism and narrow secularism that considers God a delusion and even in the political area it is not uncommon to join with a lesser enemy to fight a greater one and after its defeat then we can deal with each other as during and after WW II/
To use expressions like the “Axis of Evil” may express out beliefs but prevent any further communication except as enemies committed to the total surrender or dectruction of those who we have condemned as heretics. It allows the other to paint us as evil as well, without any hope of redemption.
Ignorance and stereotyping exists both among Christians and Muslims and what is needed at the minimum is common courtesy and mutual tolerance. This does not mean that we cannot clearly express our beliefs and disbeliefs but with the desire to arrive at some modus vivendi so that peace and harmony can thrive without having to resort to provocative words, acts and violence to spread our creed of love.and peace. Both Christians and Muslims have used nd misused their worldly power to support stated religious goals but if we wish to avoid a “War of Civliztions” that is not in the interest of mankind we have to find ways of mutual understanding rather than mutual condemnation.
To establish diplomatic relations one has to be able to use diplomatic language as long as there is a committment to have peaceful relations.
If one side only wishes to demonize the other and not enter into a productive dialogue on common problems or attempt to solve misunderstandings then there is a risk that there may be an escalation leading to violence. We have carried out relations with countries that our diametrically opposed to our ideology and have competed or debated with them in the political, economic, social, religious and philosphical arenas. There have been propaganda campaigns using the media and where possible in open debate to try to convince the other about the truth of our position. Sometimes some countries use censorship or exclusion to try to keep information from their citizens.
In the case of religious ideology, we cannot expect the other to accept our point of view but we would at least like to be given a fair hearing. The agree to disagree principle should allow this. Preachers in trying to win points may make accusations or comments that surround the truth they believe in, in a manner that incites,insults,demeans and produces hatred that prevents a proper evaluation of the core message. This obviously is unproductive in trying to produce some understanding of the position of the other.
MuslimAmerican residing in Turkey
Yes...the majority of those "evanjellycals" sold out and have minimized not only Jesus Christ, but the Cross of Christ!!! FOR SHAME!!! They do not speak for the majority of people of faith in this country!!!
REPENT, FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!!!
Being an ex military person the only way to the two wars you speck of is take up arms and fill everything in front of you with a gun, when they are all dead they you have won , until that happens you are either wasting lead or you don’t know how to fight a war. Rock and Roll
Rather than perpetuate the finger-pointing and unGodly behavior, how about a contest?
Let's see who can OUTLOVE each more, Christians or Muslims? Who more accurately brings the presence of an all-knowing, all-merciful, all-forgiving, all-loving Almighty being into the world?
Perhaps we can start with some apologies by the modern-day Crusaders: suicide bombers.
It's hard to comment without actually seeing the letter, but if they NAE are apologizing over the actual war on terror (as distinct from simply approving of it), are they not being a bit over-indulgent?
No.1, what happened to the separation of church and state? Is this not reinforcing the Islamic misperception that Western governments are Christian in the same way that theirs are Islamic?
No.2, is such an apology not a bit of an insult to the evangelicals who were against much of what happened in the first place, adding insult to their injury?
Well it appears certain conservative Christians are unwilling to set aside killing Muslims, in the name of Jesus, for the sake of biblical truth. They just want to keep that vicious circle of violence going.
As someone working in the Muslim world I can only regret to see the blindness and even ignorance of leaders like Mohler, Bauer, and specially Sookhdeo who has experience working with muslims.
Christians commited many sins during the Crusades. Period. Do we have to play the game saying that we will accept our sins if the other does the same? Is that a Christian way of dealing with sin?
Anyone working with Muslims knows that confrontation is not the way to testify.
Many of the signatures in the letters are people that belong to organizations working in the Muslim world, not talking from offices, people representing thousand of workers that deal everyday with muslims. Many of them risking their lives, and some people talk about "compromise".
That kind of thinking this "critics" is exactly what gives radical islam an excuse to talk about Christian boasting about its superiority. See Jesus in his trial in front of the Romans. Few words. In the Cross, asking for the Father to forgive others, not fighting for his rights. That's the way, love, humility. Not saying that I will recognice my sins if you recognice yours. You do what you have to do...leave God the rest.
People of faith are seeking a way to end their conflicts and achieve lasting peace. This admirable quest for peace by these religious leaders appears to be the reason for such a compromising letter. How can one genuinely achieve peace by conceding their fundamental beliefs? It has been troubling to see some Evangelicals give chase to other religious bodies that do not accept the biblical gospel. In March of 1994 the ECT (Evangelicals & Catholics Together) Accord, spearheaded by Evangelical, Chuck Colson, and Roman Catholic, Richard John Neuhaus, was released to the public. And in November 1997, this ECT document was reformulated and released under the title, The Gift of Salvation, now popularly known as ECT 2. In this document both communions use similar terminology and yet both parties realize that they have different definitions for these terms.
Now we see the same thing taking place here with the signing of the “Loving God and Neighbor Together: A Christian Response to A Common Word Between Us and You” letter. In this letter; we have Christian signatories say, “Before we "shake your hand" in responding to your letter, we ask forgiveness of the All-Merciful One . . . .” Further down it says, “we must engage in interfaith dialogue as those who seek each other's good, for the one God unceasingly seeks our good. Indeed, together with you we believe that we need to move beyond "a polite ecumenical dialogue between selected religious leaders" and work diligently together to reshape relations between our communities and our nations so that they genuinely reflect our common love for God and for one another.
Which “one God” are they referring to? Is it the God of the Bible or the god of Islam? There is a vast difference between the two; just like there is a vast difference between Jesus and Muhammad, and the Bible and the Koran. Are we so anxious to set aside biblical truth for the sake of unity, apparently, so?
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness – 2Thessalonians 2:11, 12.
Mohler, Bauer and Sookhdeo are right on target with their criticism. The letter only makes sense if Jesus is still in the grave and not Lord of all. Anderson's comments smack of pandering and academic laziness.
Ok, when are we as "Christians" going to wake up and be saved, fully? I believe that Christians-whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant-that really believe in Jesus will not only obey Him, but won't COMPROMISE Him. This ecumenical nonsense has been around for too long and it's time for us to go back to BIBLICAL/HISTORICAL/REAL Christianity!
If your NOT liberally minded, aren't you tired of your own fellow "Christians" selling you out to the world; being politically "correct": bowing the knee to Ba'al?! I am Greek-American, and I am Greek Orthodox. This is THE FIRST, TRUE AND TRUALLY HISTORCAL Church. Not to say that other churches are not sound in faith, and not to say that the Orthodox have been perfect either in everything; but many Christians from the 3 main sects (above), all over the world, are now in agreement that we need to be ONE Church again, like we were in the beging, because not only are under a liberal theological attach from "false bretheren," as St. Paul puts it, but yes, we are STILL in a religious war with Muslims.
The question is how do we fight these wars; because in case you don't know or are not willing to recognize, WE ARE AT A 2 FRONT WAR with liberal Christins and with Muslims. How do we fight? you say. Well, how did they do it from the begining? How did the Greeks in the Byzantine Empire fight this age-long 2 front war?
Well if I've got your interest now, please see THE REST OF THE STORY at my blog:
300Sploggers.com
The letter is available here: http://www.acommonword.com/lib/downloads/fullpageadbold18.pdf