A prominent theologian expressed concerns this week about the recent Christian response to a historic Muslim letter in which signers appeared unclear about their Christian identity and different beliefs of God.
-
(Photo: Baptist Press / Rachel Lloyd)R. Albert Mohler Jr. gives the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary report Wednesday, June 13, 2007, to messengers at the SBC Annual Meeting in San Antonio.
The letter, titled “Loving God and Neighbor Together: A Christian Response to a Common Word Between Us and You,” failed to clearly define the Christian understanding of God as the trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, pointed out R. Albert Mohler, Jr., president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, on his national radio program Tuesday.
Mohler explained that Muslims also believe in Jesus but only as a prophet, not as the son of God. Therefore, Christians must distinguish what kind of God they believe in when responding to the Muslim letter, which emphasized love for a common God.
“We don’t believe that Jesus Christ is our hero. We don’t believe that Jesus Christ is merely our prophet. He is Prophet and Priest and King,” Mohler said, according to the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary’s Towers news service. “He is the incarnate Son of God. He is the second person of the Trinity. He is the Lord over all. Any minimization of that is a huge problem.”
The high-profile Southern Baptist theologian was responding to a full-page letter endorsed by nearly 300 Christian leaders that appeared in a December issue of The New York Times. The letter was drafted by scholars at Yale Divinity School’s Center for Faith and Culture in response to an October letter signed by 138 Muslim scholars, clerics, and leaders that encouraged Muslims and Christians to work more closely for world peace.
At the heart of the Muslim letter was the “common ground” that believers of both faiths share – love for God and love for neighbors.
Signers of the Christian letter included Rick Warren, founder and senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., and author of The Purpose Driven Life; Bill Hybels, founder and senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Ill.; Leith Anderson, president of the National Association of Evangelicals; and David Neff, editor-in-chief and vice-president of “Christianity Today” Media Group.
Mohler did not sign the letter.
The SBTS president was also disturbed by the Christians’ request for forgiveness of sins committed against Muslims, including the Crusades and excesses in the war on terror.
“I am sure that all kinds of sin went on with the Crusades on both sides,” he said. “But I am not going to apologize for the Crusades because I am very thankful that the Muslim effort to reach a conquest of Europe was unsuccessful.”
“Otherwise, we would be speaking Arabic on this program right now and we would be talking about the Muslim continent of Europe and potentially even of North America.”
The war on terror, he also noted, is the responsibility of the United States so he was “not sure” why Christians are apologizing for that as a sin against Muslims.
“I don’t think that is the right way to put it,” Mohler said. “I don’t think we associate the United States of America with the Christian church. For whom are we apologizing and for what are we apologizing?”
But others disagree with Mohler, including members of his own Southern Baptist denomination. Continue >>
RSS
For Christians, Muslims are funny people. They said Muhammad is their prophet and is a perfect human being. But why oh why does every Muslim after their prayer (salat) always plead to their God Allah to give Muhammad the high place in his grave, a position that was promised to Muhammad during his lifetime.
Please check out this verse from Sahih Bukhari, and I guarantee you the translation is perfect
Allahumma rabba hazihi ad-da'wah at-tammah wa as-salati al-qa;imah, ati Muhammadan al-wasilah wa al-fadhilah wab'athhu maqaman mahmudan allzi wa'adtah (Sahih Bukhari)
To Khanson and all the Muslim liar, you are the doubt casting serpent of Genesis 3: 4-5
Why would anybody want to convert to Islamism when Muhammad himself cannot get to this good position in his grave? Certainly very funny.
Muhammad himself is just another dead people and is going to answer to God about his actions
Galahad, and John 14-6: Continue teaching the Truth in love. Yeshua is Messiah!!!!!!! Maranatha!!!!!!!!!!!!!
john14-6
There are some good Christians who do not agree with you.
Galahad
None of the Arab and Islamic scholars claim that Jesus Christ was an Arab. Certainly he was born to a Jewish lady Maryam (Mary). Islam did not appear in the seventh century but it has been the religion of all the Prophets starting with that of Adam; the first man created by Almighty the-God. It is a fact of life and of history that Adam was a Muslim and he practiced Islam (Shalom/Peace) with Almighty The-God.
Who is that Moubarak who wants to change the history to suit his views. Could you give some references?
Islam does not say that Christian and Jews adulterated the-bible but The-Qur’an says they did. Well you can refute the charges but who could refute the charges made by The-God in His Last testament The-Qur’an. It means you cannot blatantly refuse it but see it yourself in 1000 versions of bible co-written at least forty different human authors.
Arab did not appear in the seventh century they were before the times of Abraham Certainly Ishmael Ben Abraham married in the Arab tribe of Mecca. Mind you Ishmael was also not an Arab but a descendent of Abraham. The first wife of Moses was Arab; this wife is the same lady when Moses received the first confirmation of his being Prophet in Tuwa Valley (Sinai).
John 14-6
Islam scholars say that the prophets of the Old Testament and Jesus Christ himself are Muslims and that they have taught Islam before Muhammad was born and they say too that Jesus Christ was Arab!
That is complete nonsense! Islam appears in seventh century after Jesus Christ! After and not before! There are 700 years between both! Jesus Christ was not An Arab Jew but a Jew period! Our Hebrew inheritance and our Christian inheritance are ours, they are not Arabs!.. Muhammad was born in 570 after Jesus Christ and died in 632 after Jesus Christ….Do you know that Moubarak has made efforts upon one verse of the Quran to prove that the Virgin Mary was not a Jew but Arab?!!! Do you know that Islam says that Adam and Eve are Muslims? How can it be? I knew that sometimes there existed retroactive laws I didn’t know that a religion could take another religion inheritance and desecrate it and say blatantly that it is theirs by their God’s Law… Islam says that Christians and Jews have adulterate the Bible but the Jews existed and lived in Israel since the beginning of times, and the Bible is that old too …and Arabs only appeared in History in the seventh century.
If you have ever read the book "1984” written by Orwell, you are familiar with the concept of the department of adulteration of the History...Read Bat Ye’or.
"There exists no evidence that the New Testament came from the purported original apostles or anyone else that had seen Jesus."
You have some reading to do, this statement shows a blatant lack of scholarship. Check out "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" or "The Case for Christ"
khanson, your information about the Bible is just wrong. You should look at what real scholars say and not militant atheists or Muslims say. The epistles were written no later than 60-70 AD, and the Gospels are nearly unanimously believed to have been written before the end of the end of the first century.
Anyways, if you challenge Jesus' own claim of divinity, then you have to explain why the Jews were so outraged by it, to the point of calling for His death?
As well, the Bible that we have is the most historically attested written work from all of antiquity. If you deny the truthfulness of the Bible, you might as well deny all of antiquity.
As well, Muhammad cannot just come along and say, "Oh the Christians corrupted the Bible" Because it only takes one more step for me to say, "Oh the Muslims corrupted the Quran".
And, the vast amount of evidence is against your position, the death and Resurrection are the best explanation for what happened. And you cannot just assume that Paul made up the Trinity, Paul was deeply involved with the other apostles such as Peter and John, and Paul would not have lasted long if he was spreading false rumors.
First of all Khanson, you need to explain why the early Christians worshipped Jesus, and why Jesus accepted their worship. If He was not God then He would have been the worst of all sinners for this, but we know this is not true. Also, if He wasn't put on trial and crucified for the raidical claim of being God, then why was he? Thirdly, what do you make of Jesus' statement when He says, "Before Abraham I AM" Jesus also never came out and said He was the Christ, rather He gave His followers enough information to infer it.
khanson--
You called me a liar, and said I was spreading "Christian lies" about Mohammed when I said he ordered assassinations and then reveled in the news of those assassinations. Then I posted to you the authoritative hadiths from your own traditions wherein Mohammed is shown to have ordered assassinations and then rejoiced in the results (I only posted two examples, there are many, many more). You never responded to this. Why?
Why do you ignore the truth and then go on to post long winded theological statements from the Koran? Please stop quoting all this Islamic mumbo-jumbo to me from the Koran. That is not an answer. Because I do not recognize the Koran as authoritative in or about anything. In my opinion, the Koran is a book of lies written by an evil man who may have been under the control of demons or the devil (I believe he was demon possessed, myself). I have given you plenty of arguments to prove this point.
Now, if you cannot have a rational discussion based on logic and reason, without constantly quoting the Koran, then there is nothing further to discuss. You are the only one here who thinks the Koran is of God. Yet I have presented you evidence from your own faith and traditions that Mohammed was not a righteous man, nor was he a prophet of God. He probably received the Koran from the devil or demonic powers (as I have already laid out in a prior post). No one who is a prophet of God orders "assassinations". God is not an assassin. Assassination is *murder* (and it is cowardly) - which is directly against the sixth commandment - you do believe in the Ten Commandments, don't you?. Your prophet could not be an assassin - order assassinations and *permit deceit to be involved* in the murder of another human being - and still be from God (since he never repented of any of this according to the hadiths). When David committed a murder, the prophet Nathan was sent to rebuke him and call him to repentance. (And God punished David severely for his actions.)
khanson, I urge you to consider what you believe and the religion you are following. Use your intellect and reason. No man like Mohammed, who did what Mohammed did, could be from God. You know this is true. I make this argument from your own religious sources. I speak the truth to you in love. Please consider what I am saying.
Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
According to holy scripture, the Holy Ghost (Spirit) is the Comforter. Notice that the Comforter comes in the name of JESUS, will teach all things, and will bring to remembrance what JESUS said.
Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Notice how the Comforter is to help one witness. Witness who and why? Jesus Christ, because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, the only begotten Son of God, who offers redemption for all.
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Khanson,
Firstly, Christians are strict monotheists, you show a lack of understanding of the concept of the Trinity if you deny this. Secondly we have many, many, learned theologians who reject the Quran and accept the Bible. You are talking about interpretations and you have to give a good reason why anyone should accept your interpretation over another.
Second, you are right that Jesus did talk about immediately sending the Comforter, and the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, as is evidenced from Pentecost. The context is clear, it is most certainly not Muhammad.
"Whosoever he may have been should have been kept as a role model for whole of humanity till the day of Judgement. "
Where did you get this from? The Bible doesn't say this anywhere and the idea of one who comforts does not connote that he should do anything other than aid. Your liberality with words is somewhat difficult to accept.
For that matter you last quote says quite well why Muhammad certainly cannot be the one, is Muhammad alive and with us today? I do not mean his teachings, I mean him. The verse did not say that his teachings would be with you forever, but that the comforter would be with you forever. This is definitely the Holy Spirit.
Islam
"religious system revealed by Muhammad," 1818, from Arabic, lit. "submission" (to the will of God), from root of aslama "he resigned, he surrendered, he submitted," causative conjunction of salima "he was safe," and related to salam "peace."
Muslim means one who surrenders.
Khanson, Islam literally means submission, at best it means peace after submission. But of course this is not real peace, it is only forced peace. I can be at peace with anyone who is completely submissive to me.
Chris333
You are the denier without knowledge: Islam means peace and you ask any Islamic scholar, you would be refuted. If you persist on denial, who could guide you: None.
Khanson, Islam means submission it does not mean peace... you do not seem to be learning this.
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Galahad
Truthfully Correct my dear brother in Abraham's faith. I as a monotheist have no quarrel with my Christian brehtheren when they bring and highlight truth from The-Bible. I am also gifting you the following verses from The-Bible and The-Qur'an which are unanimous.
Jesus Christ in Islam is a Messenger of God who had been sent to guide the Children of Israel with a new scripture, the Injeel (Gospel). Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim, as he preached for people to adopt the straight path in submission to God's will.
Islam rejects that Jesus was God or the son of God, stating that he was a human who, like other prophets, had been divinely chosen to spread The-God's message of "peace" which in Hebrew refers as "Shalom" and in Arabic refers as "Islam". The basic evidence of that assertion is from the bible which is in itself explanatory: -
"Peace (Islam) I leave with you; My peace (Islam) I give unto you, not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" [New Testament (21st Century King James Version) John - 14: 27].
When Jesus Christ (PBUH) left the world for heavens, he left Islam (peace) so that children of Israel could worship Almighty The-God. Later on 610 CE, Muhammad (PBUH) was honoured with same message of peace (Islam) which evident from the following verse of The-Qur’an: -
"Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed "Peace" (Islam) as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then The-God is Forgiver, Merciful" {The Qur’an – Surah Al Maa’idah (Chapter: The Table spread) 05: 03}.
Khanson
The laws that Moses has received from God are the ten Commandments. Here they are:
1st: I am the Lord your God; you shall not have false gods before Me.
2nd: You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3rd: Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
4th:Honor your father and your mother.
5th:You shall not kill.
6th;You shall not commit adultery.
7th;You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
9th; You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife.
10th: You shall not covet your neighbour’s goods.
And Jesus Christ added another one:” Thou shall love thy neighbour as thyself” Mathew 22;39 And what is to love for the Christians?
The apostle John explains it in his second epistle:”And this is love, that we walk after His commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it”.
So pay real attention: The 5th commandment says ;You shall not kill.
It says; You shall not kill. IT does not say; you shall not kill but…well, it’s ok to kill the Unbelievers, it’s ok to murder and to behead your enemies, it’s ok to murder those who offend you…and that proves beyond any doubt that our God is not Allah.
Galahad
You ought to read The-Qur'anic verses with contextuality. For every circumstance Muhammad (PBUH) faced, chapters and verses were revelaed for his and his companions guidance.
Imagine, when Muhammad was stoned by people of Taif, he prayed for them. When Meccans cut off his food supplies for a year, he survived with his companions on lowest ration possible. But and when his life was threatened with death, Almighty The-God would not have allowed him to die at that time. Then the permission was granted to fight against the enemy: -
"The permission is granted to you (Thou Muhammad) in order to fight against those who oppress you and Almighty The-God would grant you the victory" (The-Qur'an).
"At the same time, not a single Muslim is allowed to kill any non-combatant otherwise it will be like killing whole of humankind". This type verse is also available in The-Qur'an but sometimes so called Muslims transgress and they face the dire consequences accordingly.
maranatha7593
Because you have not intended to read The-Qur'an, and without reading it you have already rejected it. You did not seek truth from Lord The-God who gives the guidance. I am only capable of conveying the truth - your intentions would fulfil your desire. The question is whether your intention is to find the and whether you are in search of the truth.
How could you reject Book of The-God which is untouched by human interference. Do not ever be inspired by devil, devilish dreams and of devilish spirits. They can talk to you, interfere with your thinkings and overwhelm you to commit your internal desire - do not fall prey to devil.
If you love Jesus Christ, pray to Almighty The-God alone and seek The-God's guidance on the status of Jesus Christ in the court of God. I am certain that Almighty The-God would guide you if your intentions are to find truth but the truth.
khanson, the Spirit of God who lives in my spirit does not witness to me that The-Qur'an is the word of God.
Khanson
I want here to clarify some issues :
Point one: The verses I have quoted exist in the Qu’ran.
Point two: Those verses justify violence against the enemies of Islam whatever they are.
Point three: You will never find such indictments to violence, to murder and to behead your enemies in the New Testament said by Jesus Christ
Point four: On the contrary Jesus Christ told us to love our enemies and not to fight with violence “for all they that take the sword shall perish by the sword” ( Mathew 26;52)
Point five: Never has the New Testament justified the atomic bombs nor the war.
maranatha7593
The fact is in The-Qur'an - you will find the answers in this Last Testament of God.
khanson: "Since then, many people have seen dreams and claimed to be prophets. The devil is the intruder and professes anti-Christ elements to confuse the follower of a prophet."
Do you assume this does not apply to Mohammed?
khanson: "Unlike the Twelve Apostles, there is no indication that Paul ever met Jesus prior to the latter's so called crucifixion. According to Acts, his conversion took place as he was traveling the road to Damascus, and experienced a vision of the resurrected Jesus. Since then, many people have seen dreams and claimed to be prophets. The devil is the intruder and professes anti-Christ elements to confuse the follower of a prophet. St Paul who resisted Jesus Christ in his life time, all of sudden became the spoiler of Christianity by declaring Jesus as son of God and making Trinity as the basic concept of Christianity. No doubt, he is the founder of Christianity."
Except for the opening sentence and the general statements, "Since then, many people have seen dreams and claimed to be prophets. The devil is the intruder and professes anti-Christ elements to confuse the follower of a prophet", this is Scripturally inaccurate.
1) We don't know for sure that Paul ever personally met Jesus Christ while He was here on earth, so we can't say for certain that Paul 'resisted Him' then. We DO know that Paul was 'consenting to Stephen's death' when he was stoned for being a disciple of the Christ.
2) Paul was 'the spoiler of Christianity'? According to the NT, he carried the Gospel of Jesus Christ to more countries than any other apostle.
3) This statement: "declaring Jesus as son of God and making Trinity as the basic concept of Christianity" is also inaccurate IF you're inferring that no other apostle declared Jesus to be the Son of God or and that the triune nature was God was not shown in the Gospels. The other apostles did in fact show that Jesus was the Son of God, and the triune nature of God was shown clearly at Jesus' baptism. Also - throughout the Gospels, Jesus was constantly speaking of His Father, and in John, chapters 13-16, He gave extensive teaching on the ministry of the Holy Spirit to the apostles, as He knew He would soon be returning to the Father.
4) Paul was definitely NOT the 'founder of Christianity'. The early apostles who walked with Jesus established faith in Jesus as the Son of God wherever Jesus sent them. They and women who had also known Jesus proclaimed Him as the resurrected Son of God after the Resurrection. The resurrected Jesus walked and talked with His disciples for a number of days in His glorified body, and gave final instructions for the fledgling church to wait for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost - which they did. Paul did not participate in any of this, yet the church was flourishing by this time. He was in fact persecuting the early church when Jesus met him on his way to Damascus. We know that his purpose was to carry the Gospel to the Gentiles, and he did.
Chris333
I find you a willing person to talk. When a Muslim talks, he should talk about Islam what The-Qur'an says about it. For a Monotheist believer like me, The-Qur'an was never corrupted by human incursions but it purely stands as "The Wordings of God" conveyed to Muhammad through Archangel Gabriel. Almighty The-God promises that this book is protected against human and jinn corruptions until The Judgement Day.
Muhammad was never lettered but an honest and moral man amidst a corrupt society. Muhammad (PBUH) was born amidst a polytheistic (unbeliever) society. He was saddened and sick of the corrupt society around him. One night, while he was meditating in the Hira cave, the Angel Gabriel (PBUH) came to him. The Angel aroused him and his mighty voice reverberated in his ears. He was perplexed and did not know what to do. He was asked to read. He replied: "I cannot read". The Angel repeated three times asking Muhammad (PBUH) to read, but he replied the same answer. Finally the Angel asked and Muhammad (PBUH) read:
"Read in the name of your Lord, who created man from a clot. Read in the name of your God, the Most Bountiful, who taught by means of the pen, and taught man what he did not know" {The Qur'an – Surah Al Alaque (Chapter: The Clot) 96: 1-5}.
If you ask question starting from here, I would appreciate it.
"Certainly war on terror can be justified if and when it targets only terrorists not innocent Muslims. "
Agreed, Khanson.
Here are some things for you to think about, a name is just what you call someone. Suppose you and I are talking and you say, "George Washington was an admirable man" and I reply, "Yes, he sure was! I get inspiration every time I think of how he was the first african-zen buddhist to go into space! He was surely a great man!" You then say, "No, no, George Washington was the first president of the US, not what you say." But I reply, "It doesn't matter, his name was 'George Washington' and that means he is the same guy!"
Obviously this is illogical. Rethink your argument. Paul most likely did not know Christ personally, but he was accepted by all of the apostles who did, and he had some encounter with Christ. Luke approves of him, and Luke wrote one of the Gospels. Anyways, if you are going to claim that the NT was corrupted, then you have to provide an alternative that is "the right one" or closer to the right one. I have no problem with debating with Muslims, but they have some assumptions which make intelligent debate literally impossible.
Okay, Didymus, I accept your apology, even though you didn't just "make me feel" like you put words in my mouth, you did put words in my mouth. Secondly, yes if we are not honest with Muslims then we can have peace. If we allow them to mock Christ and threaten us with terrorism if we even utter the name of Muhammad in a wrong way, then we can have peace. But peace is not everything. Paul did talk to the Romans, and he did try to find common ground for dialogue, but he never gave one example where he reached out to somebody else, without mentioning the faith in Christ, in its true sense. There is nothing wrong about telling Muslims all the points we have in common, as long as you tell them what your faith really is, and not just generics. Besides that, lets just say we do only tell them what we agree on, as soon as we tell them the truth of Christ, they will say we lied, and they will go right back to not wanting peace with us. If they want to kill us for what we believe, then let them, but we are Christians, not politicians.
Also try thinking about what Christ said, that if any of us were embarrassed of Him, then He would be embarrassed of us. Omission is not justifiable. (Yes I realize we all make mistakes, we need to repent and follow the truth)
Galahad
You quote The-Qur'anic verses out of context. Those verses are against the enemies of Monotheism who staged a war against believers. No one kisses the attacking enemy.
What America did in Japan by droping atom bomb was not Christianity and in Vietnam, Korea are more examples. All such wars cannot be justified by Bible.
Certainly war on terror can be justified if and when it targets only terrorists not innocent Muslims.
Galahad
Alloh is an Arabic word which means The-God. No matter with what name you call your god, it shall be always Almighty The-God: The God of Adam.
Unfortunately, you guys invented the theory of god's incarnation. Christians have innovated Jesus Christ as incarnation of God while every hindu diety is innovated as incarnation of God. Hindu's dieties are Rama, Krishna, Shiva and Hanuman are all said to be the incarnation of God. Then Buddhist claim Buddha to be the incarnation of God.
You have a lot of competition in that field and every zealot of an innovated theory claims to be true. My only contention is why Almighty The-God should incarnate when He is The-Creator Lord of the universe. He commands and ther His command is fulfilled. He sends human Messengers like Noah, Abraham Moses and Jesus, why such innovations of incarnation.
Christians forget that God said: Thou shall not draw graven image of Lord The-God. I see in churches the graven image of Jesus who is erroneously considered god or son of god. There is no logic.
Forgive me if I hurt anyone's feeling, it is just an exchange of knowledge.
Unlike the Twelve Apostles, there is no indication that Paul ever met Jesus prior to the latter's so called crucifixion. According to Acts, his conversion took place as he was traveling the road to Damascus, and experienced a vision of the resurrected Jesus. Since then, many people have seen dreams and claimed to be prophets. The devil is the intruder and professes anti-Christ elements to confuse the follower of a prophet. St Paul who resisted Jesus Christ in his life time, all of sudden became the spoiler of Christianity by declaring Jesus as son of God and making Trinity as the basic concept of Christianity. No doubt, he is the founder of Christianity.
Paul asserted that he received the Gospel not from man, but by "the revelation of Jesus Christ". Fourteen epistles in the New Testament are traditionally attributed to Paul, though in some cases the authorship is disputed. They are believed to be the earliest-written books of the New Testament. Thus the books written by the human knowledge could not be certainly from God, as such, such writings cannot be understood as the word of God.
Paul's influence on Christian thinking arguably has been more significant than any other New Testament author. Paul was born in Tarsus, Cilicia in Asia Minor, or modern-day Turkey, under the name Saul, "an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin, circumcised on the eighth day".
Allah is not the God of Christians . Think a little about it……Jesus Christ said: “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:44) but The Qu’ran said:” When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and when you have laid them law, bind your captives firmly” Qu’ran 47; 4 and there is more!... In Qu’ran 2:191 it is said: “ and slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter” and also: “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know” Qu´ran 8:60…How can this God Allah be the same as our Lord Jesus Christ? Never and never!...no way! Jesus said to love our enemies and to pray for them not to agree with them and not to apologise for being a Christian… Read the Qu’ran and compare with the Gospels…and stop apologising and be proud of your Christianity.
theotrek, when the entirety of the Bible is taken in context, it is very easy to see that the Christians' God is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit - as clearly shown throughout scripture.
Again:
But the bottom line is, Muslims do not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. They believe He was simply a prophet who preceded Mohammed, whom they believe to be the 'greatest' prophet.
There is an obelisk which stands in front of the main Muslim mosque in Mecca on which these words are inscribed:
"There is one God, and he has no son."
I have no problem with peace talks as long as Christians are not expected to compromise the essential truths of the Christian faith. In truth, it would seem that Muslims themselves should have initiated a peace movment years (decades) ago, if they were not in agreement with the PLO's, Al Queda's, and other terrorists' activities.
khanson...Not only died God(JESUS) die, but He rose one the third day to sit on His throne in Heaven. He glorified Himself and fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament. This proves that Jesus was God just as Isaiah 43:11 says - I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour. There are many verses that prove that Jesus is God. If you want I can elaborate more. Lord bless you.
Maranatha--
The doctrine of the Trinity was elaborated over centuries in the early church councils. Sure, it has some Biblical backing, but the Bible does not lay out the specifics. Is it three Gods? Is God one? How is Jesus God? Does Jesus proceed from Father or Spirit? Did Jesus originate in the incarnation? How are the Spirit and Son distinguished/intertwined? These issues were not yet in discussion in the first century. They were argued and discussed much later, when there was time for those kinds of discussions.
[Note that John speaks of the Word as the actor in creation, while Genesis speaks of the Spirit/Breath of God. Those are intertwined concepts in Greek and Hebrew, as they both proceed from the mouth. Paul mentions Christ indwelling the believer and in other places the Spirit. The Bible is not quite as specific s we would like.]
khanson--
While I understand Jesus as God, he is completely God in terms of character, not in terms of dimension. In geometric terms, it would be like a line intersected by a plane. The line of space time intersecting with the plane of God's presence. The line cannot "comprehend" (encapsulate) all that is God, yet God is present at that point of intersection.
Physically, Jesus dies, yet God still lives. While God is on the cross incarnate as Jesus, God is also beyond the limits of a physical body. That is what we refer to as the mystery on the incarnation. It is not three gods. It is God becoming visible and participating in human life, even while transcending the physical universe.
jlcboi23
didymus
If your god died then you never had GOD. Imagine if god dies then who runs this universe - the whole system of this universe will collapse. Whether one believes whatever form of human made god, gods and goddesses there is and there shall be always ONE-GOD. Almighty The-God has following charactersitics: -
"The-GOD: there is no other god besides Him, the Living, the Eternal. Never a moment of unawareness or slumber overtakes Him. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. Who could intercede with Him, except in accordance with His will? He knows their past, and their future. No one attains any knowledge, except as He wills. His dominion encompasses the heavens and the earth, and ruling them never burdens Him. He is the Most High, the Great" {The Qur’an – Surah Al Baqarah (Chapter: The Heifer) 02: 255}.
I agree with you didymus, Jesus(the ONE TRUE GOD) dies for us. Without having His blood on our life then we are still in our sins. He died to redeem us from them so that we could be with Him(Jesus-God.) There is no other salvation other than this.
khanson,
You said, “God Never Dies.”
Well, I’m happy to say that my God did.
theotrek, the scripture passage in John which details Jesus' baptism does not just give 'rudimentary details' - it is a clear picture of the three-in-one nature of God. Genesis 1 also shows this picture.
But the bottom line is, Muslims do not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. They believe He was simply a prophet who preceded Mohammed, whom they believe to be the 'greatest' prophet.
There is an obelisk which stands in front of the main Muslim mosque in Mecca - these words are inscribed on it:
"There is one God, and he has no son."
I have no problem with peace talks as long as Christians are not expected to compromise the essential truths of the Christian faith. In truth, it would seem that Muslims themselves should have initiated a peace movment years (decades) ago, if they were not in agreement with the PLO's, Al Queda's, and other terrorists' activities.
maranatha7593--Doctrine of the trinity does not speak of a three-fold "nature" of God. Rather, it is a three-fold "appreciation" of God. It speaks to God's indivisibility in nature, yet our recognizing God in different "persona" (masks). In one sense, yes, that is very different from Islam. On the other hand, the uniqueness of God (indivisibility, oneness) is in accord with Islam. Muslims generally react to a popular Christian conception more in keeping with a Tri-theity, rather than trinity. The Bible's emphasis is always on God's union, even when it shows us God in various portraits.
Yes, you can see the rudimentary basis for Trinity is the passage you mentioned. The other passages are additions to the original Greek texts of the NT (the ones the Jehovah's Witnesses leave out). I do not claim that Trinity is alien to the Bible, just that it was not elaborated by the first century writers.
theotrek - we do know that Muslims outright reject Jesus' claim to be the Son of God, God in the flesh who came to dwell among us (John 1). When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, we see the threefold nature of God: The Son being baptized, the Holy Spirit descending upon Him in the form of a dove, and the Father speaking out of Heaven.
That is completely different from Allah, is not what Muslims believe about their god.
Billy Baker...to comment on your comment about Jesus being on the right hand of God. The right hand means to be in power. God was Jesus in the flesh whom He gave all His power. The bible also says that he emptied Himself which means that He was flesh just as we are.
theotrek,
You mention, "Unfortunately, we are much closer to Cain's "Am I my brother's keeper," than accepting Jesus' answer to "Who is my neighbor?"
It's sad to hear, but it is so very true.
"Inasmuch as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all" definitely does not mean that we must convert people to Christ before we can have dialog. Unfortunately, we are much closer to Cain's "Am I my brother's keeper," than accepting Jesus' answer to "Who is my neighbor?" No Jew would have accepted a Samaritan on equal religious footing, anymore than Mohler is accepting Muslims for conversation about peace.
Chris333,
I apologize if I made you feel like I was putting words in your mouth, I didn’t mean to do that. What I’m trying to get at is this: Those 138 Muslim clerics aren’t interested in the gospel of Christ, they don’t want to convert to Christianity. Their goal in trying to open a dialogue with the Christian community is not to try to become Christians, but rather to find some kind of common ground in order to create a more peaceful coexistence between our two communities.
You said, “Muslims are not going to find God from us telling them there is nothing wrong with what they believe.” That’s true (and ultimately I think that would mean that if they don’t repent, and believe the good news of Christ, they will go to hell). BUT, is this all we can bring to the discussion table? If they are not interested in the gospel (and they’re not) can’t we still talk with one another to try to resolve things peacefully between us?
It is this that I would contend that the 300 Christian leaders in the article mentioned above are trying to do. They’re just trying to take the 138 Muslim clerics on their word, and find ways to live in peace (Romans 12:18). They are not “downplaying or even just omitting the Gospel”.
Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Every human born in this world inherits a right to choose his / her destiny. Not everyone makes a righteous choice but a right of choice is available to all. In order to make a righteous choice, one must consider life in this world and the life hereafter in to account. The choice shall be to revere unto ONE who creates, never dies and lives in eternity that is Almighty The-God.
When a baby is born and until the age of puberty that baby becoming person does not intellectually decide what would be his / her religious destination. It is not necessary that the childhood religious education would solely affect one’s future decision but it does leave an impact which influences the final conviction and pronouncement. Every human when uses the knowledge for conviction; it must be based on sound reasoning. The knowledge which defies failures is correct knowledge to follow.
When I was born, I was not conscious enough to make a choice between theism and atheism. Later, when I reached to puberty, I made a choice to become a Muslim meaning worshipping one God (Alloh) and following the path of Muhammad (SAW) The Last Messenger Prophet of The-God (Alloh). Though during my childhood I followed what my parents followed, later I started following what I was guided by my Lord The-God to be correct.
For a human who is not born in a Muslim family that choice would mean a perquisite to learn about Islam. The choice of Islam and to become Muslim can be comprehensive if one learns it comparatively and intellectually.
Billy Baker--I believe that what jlcboi23 is getting at is the fact that the Bible does not clearly delineate God as Father, Spirit, and Son in quite the same way that popular Christianity does. It rather places much more stress on the unity of God than in distinctions among the "persons" of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is post-biblical in its formulation. It is not directly taught in the Bible. Rather, it is a doctrine that attempts to explain the Biblical language regarding God in terms of Father, Son, and Spirit. If you want to get more technical, God is also mother hen, king, lover, etc. Trinity addresses the three greatest "pictures" of God in the Bible and deals with how they are inter-related. The language of the three "Persons" of God refers to the Latin, "persona", referring to the mask used by one actor to represent a character in a play. (One actor, multiple characters/presentations).
Chris333- "Muslims are not going to find God from us telling them there is nothing wrong with what they believe." And what others of us are saying is that you don't have to attack people to share God's love. It is only afterward the effective sharing of God's love that the rest of the gospel will be heard. When Paul was imprisoned in Philippi, when did he ever confront the jailer with all of his sin and wrong beliefs? He didn't. He just declared his confidence and peace in Christ, going out of his way to protect the jailer's life.
didymus, you should stop putting words into my text. I never said to tell Muslims that they were going to "fry in hell". I said we need to show them our love. Do you have a problem with that? Or do you have a problem with the necessary exclusivity of the Truth? Or perhaps you think it is good to just tell people that God loves them and accepts them no matter what they do, believe, or say?
Are you are assuming we use some deceptive technique of tricking Muslims into thinking we are not trying to tell them of the Truth of Christ, and then once they have gotten our trust we pull out our real intentions? This is intellectual and spiritual cowardice. Yes we must be tactful in what we say, and how we relate with, not onlly Muslims, but all people, but a Christian should never comprise the truth for friendship. I believe Muslims, and all people, would appreciate honesty over a fake smile.
jlcboi23: I believe in GOD the Father......
Q. 10. What are the personal properties of the three persons in the Godhead?
A. It is proper to the Father to beget the Son,[36] and to the Son to be begotten of the Father,[37] and to the Holy Ghost to proceed from the Father and the Son from all eternity.[38]
[36] Hebrews 1:5-6, 8. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.... But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[37] John 1:14, 18. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.... No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[38] John 15:26. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. Galatians 4:6. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
jlcboi23: Farther argument taken from the Westminster Larger Catechism
Q. 8. Are there more Gods than one?
A. There is but one only, the living and true God.[34]
[34] Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6. As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.... But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Jeremiah 10:10. But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Q. 9. How many persons are there in the Godhead?
A. There be three persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one true, eternal God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory; although distinguished by their personal properties.[35]
[35] 1 John 5:7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Matthew 3:16-17. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 28:19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 2 Corinthians 13:14. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. John 10:30. I and my Father are one.
jlcboi23: I enjoyed reading this, however I do not agree with you, and put it to you
But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!" Acts 7:55-56
Perhaps Stephen was a little confused, or Trinitarians have changed the scripture to support their argument.
Chris333,
Is it truly the only way we can talk to Muslims is to basically tell them, “Here’s the gospel, now accept it and convert, or fire in hell.” What if they don’t want to convert? Do we continue talking with them to try and make a more peaceful world, or do we just tell them, “fry in hell.”
These Muslims making this overture to the Christian community aren’t interested in converting to Christianity, and they know we aren’t interested in converting to Islam. So does that mean we can’t talk with one another to resolve things peacefully between us?
A.S. Mathew, I agree, we do need to show others the Gospel of Christ in love. The problem is when people want to show people love while downplaying or even just omitting the Gospel of Christ. I think that is what this article is about. Muslims are not going to find God from us telling them there is nothing wrong with what they believe.
A.S.Mathew--Kudos for sharing the love of Christ is a way that spell love!
As to theologians, while I would not count Mohler as a good example, there is value in theology and theologizing. He just seems to have a political beef and bias to say what will gain him a hearing and importance within the new SBC fundamentalist regime. I don't agree that theology is causing problems. Rather, bad theology (fundamentalist mindset) is spreading ill will and being a barrier to the gospel. It is amazing how many people want to hit others over the head with their theology as though that will help them understand the love of God for all.
How to reach a Muslim with the love of Christ? Simply open a dialouge and present the gospel
of Christ. While I walked throug the local mall, I met two foreigners working in the mall. I started talking with them, both of them are Muslims, one from Iran and the other from Egypt. Every time
when I meet them, they want to hear more about Jesus Christ, and slowly I presented to them
about the unique personality of Christ.
When some ultra-radial-fundamental Christians show an attitude of super holiness and a
dislike for the believers of other religions, I simply ask the question; how to reach them for
Christ? The answer is not abstract. Until we interact with the sinners and non-Chrstians
in the highways and any other place, they will never come to know Jesus Christ. Don't
expect them to visit our Churches or call toll free numbers after watching the Christian
T.V. programs because very rarely it will happen. Indeed, great theoligians do less soul winning but talk more elaborately in theology, and too much theology is causing great
indigestion in the evangelization process, because their speciality is theology but not soul winning.
john14-6,
And just when I was going to share with you the best Christian response to Islam I’ve found… you leave. Man… what’s up with that?
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/2008/01/best-christian-response-ive-found-to.html
Well, at least others will be able to enjoy reading the testament of Christian de Chergé.
Jesus Christ = The Hope of Glory
Allah = no hope at all
I am a follower of Jesus Christ and I have many brethren who have been Muslims and have found the joy of a life with Jesus Christ, and the one thing I hear from them is that; they have never known such love or joy or peace as they have in having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
One does not have a personal relationship with Allah.
In Jesus Christ, we have eternal life, but with Allah, no one is every really sure what their future is. Jesus Christ loves the whole world, John 3:16; and I don't think it's wrong for us to reach out in love as Jesus did and talk with our muslim neighbors.
Who was Jesus talking with when HE walked this earth, HE wasn't suppose to talk with Samaritans and yet He did, He was not to hang out with the unclean and yet HE did and HE even touched them.
The church needs to let The HOLY SPIRIT lead, after all the Lord told us to wait upon the Holy Spirit and HE will lead us into all truth.
The Lord God tells us "as much as it depends on you, be at peace with all men; but especially those of the household of God." I see so many "christians" attack others and believers too, how does this honor the Lord God?
Every day we have the opportunity to let JESUS shine out of us; after all it is HIS church; not ours and if we're only Christians within the walls of our own local church, how is that part of the great commission?
We are to be Jesus Christ to the world, that includes our Muslim neighbors!
46. If God and the Holy Ghost are two separate persons, which was the Father of Christ? Matthew 1:20 says that the Holy Ghost was the Father, while Romans 15:6, II Corinthians 11:31, and Ephesians 1:3 say that God was the Father. There is no contradiction when we realize that God the Father and the Holy Ghost are one and the same Spirit. Matthew 10:20; Ephesians 4:4; I Corinthians 3:16.
47. When Paul asked the Lord who He was, what was the answer? "I am Jesus." Acts 9:5.
48. When Stephen was dying, did he call God Jesus? Yes. Acts 7:59.
49. Did Thomas ever call Jesus God? Yes. John 20:28.
50. How could Jesus be the Savior, when God the Father said in Isaiah 43:11, "Beside me there is no Savior?" Because "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." II Corinthians 5:19.
51. Does the Bible say that Jesus was God with us? Yes. Matthew 1:23.
52. Did Jesus ever say, "I and my Father are one?" Yes. John 10:30.
53. Can it be proved scripturally that Jesus and the Father are one in the same sense that husband and wife are one? No. The Godhead was never compared to the relationship of a husband and wife. Jesus identified Himself with the Father in a way that husband and wife cannot be identified with each other. John 14:9-11.
54. Does the Bible say that there is only one wise God? Yes. Jude 25.
55. Does the Bible call the Holy Ghost a second or third person in the Godhead? No. The Holy Ghost is the one Spirit of God, the one God Himself at work in our lives. John 4:24; I Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; 12:13.
56. Can Trinitarians show that three divine persons were present when Jesus was baptized by John? Absolutely not. The one, omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person was present--Jesus Christ the Lord.
57. Then what were the other two of whom Trinitarians speak? One was a voice from heaven; the other was the Spirit of God in the form of a dove. Matthew 3:16-17.
58. What did the voice say at Jesus' baptism? "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mark 1:11. As the Son of God, Jesus was the one God incarnate.
59. Does the Bible say that God shed His blood and that God laid down His life for us? Yes. Acts 20:28; I John 3:16. God was able to do this because He had taken upon Himself a human body.
60. The Bible says that God is coming back with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5) and also that Jesus is coming back with all his saints (I Thessalonians 3:13). Are two coming back? No. Only one is coming back--our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13.
31. Does the Bible say that Christ is the Lord? Yes. Luke 2:11.
32. Does the Bible say that the Lord is God? Yes. I kings 18:39; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 2:39; Revelation 19:1.
33. How could the church belong to Jesus (Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God (I Corinthians 10:32)? Because Jesus is God in the flesh.
34. Will God give His glory to another? No. Isaiah 42:8.
35. Was there a God formed before Jehovah, or will there be one formed after? No. Isaiah 43:10.
36. What is one thing that God does not know? Another God. Isaiah 44:8.
37. What is one thing that God Cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2.
38. How many Gods should we know? Only one. Hosea 13:4.
39. How many names has the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9.
40. Is it good to think upon the name of the Lord? Yes. Malachi 3:16.
41. Does the Bible say that God alone treads upon the waves of the sea? Yes. Job 9:8
42. Why, then, was Jesus able to walk upon the Sea of Galilee (Matthew 14:25)? Because He is God the Creator. Colossians 1:16.
43. Is God the only one who can forgive sin? Yes. Isiah 43:25; Mark 2:7.
44. Why, then, could Jesus forgive sin in Mark 2:5-11? Because He is God the Savior.
45. Is Jesus the true God? Yes. I John 5:20.
16. When God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26), was He speaking to another person in the Godhead? No. Isaiah 44:24; Malachi 2:10.
17. How many of God's qualities were in Christ? All. Colossians 2:9.
18. How may we see the God who sent Jesus into the world? By seeing Jesus. John 12:44-45; 14:9.
19. Does the Bible say that Jesus is the Almighty? Yes. Revelation 1:8
20. Whom do some designate as the first person in the trinity? God the Father.
21. Whom do some designate as the last person in the trinity? The Holy Ghost. But Jesus said that He was the first and last. Revelation 1:17-18
22. How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelation 4:2.
23. If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that He was the first and the last? Because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament incarnate.
24. Did Jesus tell Satan that God alone should be worshipped? Yes. Matthew 4:10
25. Does the devil believe in more than one God? No. James 2:19.
26. Does the Bible say that God, who is the Word, was made flesh? Yes John 1:1, 14.
27. For what purpose was God manifested in the flesh? To save sinners. Hebrews 2:9, 14.
28. Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh? Yes. I Timothy 3:16.
29. Could Jesus have been on earth and in heaven at the same time? Yes. John 3:13.
30. Does the Bible say that there is but one Lord? Yes. Isaiah 45:18; Ephesians 4:5.
I wanted to comment on the "trinity."
1. Is the word trinity in the Bible? No.
2. Does the Bible say that there are three persons in the Godhead? No.
3. Does the Bible speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Yes.
4. Do these titles as used in Matthew 28:19 mean that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead? No, they refer to three offices, roles, or relationship to humanity.
5. Does the Bible use the word three in reference to God? Only one verse in the entire Bible does so-I John 5:7. It speaks of the Father, the Word (instead of Son), and the Holy Ghost, and it concludes by saying, "These three are one."
6. Does the Bible use the word one in reference to God? Yes, many times. For example, see Zechariah 14:9; Malachi 2:10; Matthew 23:9; Mark 12:29, 32; John 8:41; 10:30; Romans 3:30; I Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; I Timothy 2:5; James 2:19.
7. Can the mystery of the Godhead be understood? Yes. Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16.
8. Has the Christian only one Heavenly Father? Yes. Matthew 23:9.
9. Then why did Jesus say to Philip, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9)? Because Jesus is the express image of God's person. Hebrews 1:3. The Greek word for personin this verse literally means "substance."
10. Does the Bible say that there are two persons in the Godhead? No.
11. Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person? Yes, in Jesus Christ. II Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:19; 2:9; Hebrews 1:3.
12. Is the mystery of the Deity hidden from some people? Yes. Luke 10:21-22.
13. Who is the Father? The Father is the one God, particularly as revealed in parental relationship to humanity. Deuteronomy 32:6; Malachi 2:10.
14. Where was God the Father while Jesus was on earth? The Father was in Christ. John 14:10; II Corinthians 5:19. He was also in heaven, for God is omnipresent.
15. Did the prophet Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father? Yes. Isaiah 9:6; 63:16.
john14-6,
Yes, they are extreme Islamophobes. They paint with a very broad brush an irrational fear for all Muslims, and they actively promote a negative, and often violent, reaction to this fear that they create.
john14-6,
Mark Harding, the author of the article you quote, is an extreme Islamophobe. He isn’t a Muslim, and he doesn’t understand Islam. Yet he apparently believes he is a better interpreter of the Koran than they are, forces his words into their mouths, and then demands that we all have an irrational fear of Islam. Basically, he is telling you what extreme Islamophobes truly think about Muslims.
In other words, Mark Harding is a fruitcake.
Why you want to quote fruitcakes as your authorities I don’t know.
John 14-6, to clarify, that was disagreement on self-defense. I do also believe that John's words in Revelation are true, in that it is through faithful witness even to the point of death that we gain the victory that Christ won through death. (www.theotrek.org/resources/th/2007_Eschatology.pdf)
thelordismylight--You can fight a war on terror, but you can't win one. Terror is a concept, not a viable target. Works about as well as the "war on drugs" has gone.
Billy--Sure, you can find a verse to proof-text violence. Read a little further on in the story, however, when Jesus turns and tells Peter to put the sword away. Peter thought he should use it, but Jesus effectively tells him he misunderstood. The martyrs did not seek martyrdom, specifically, but Paul did place himself in danger he knew he would face in Jerusalem. He went, knowing he would be imprisoned. The martyrs also did not protect themselves other than by fleeing.
John 14-6 I disagree.
thelordismylight,
You said, “Stop acting like your religion hasn't had a bloody past. I realize that ours has, now it is time for you to realize it.”
I’m not sure what you’re getting at since I see the Crusades as a part of my Christianities history, and I know full well the dark history of Protestantism.
john14-6,
It wasn’t Pope Clement, it was Pope Urban II who called the crusaders. And I know why the Byzantine Emperor called for aid, but I also know why Pope Urban II sent them, and why they went, and it wasn’t defensive.
You said, “I will defend the Crusades as both just and righteous in their intent and in their outcome.”
Fine. But I think you’re wrong to do so. I think you are upholding an atrocity as something good, which puts a black stain on Christianity.
As for your comment on the phrase “War on Terror”, lets not play word games, we all know what it means (from 9/11, thru Afghanistan, to Iraq), George W. Bush has made sure of that.
No, you can wage war on terrorism. That is what we are doing. That is why we haven't been jumping down the militant leader of pakistan's throat when he took away their freedom of trial (I think it is Pakistan, having a blank here.) Cuz he is our ally against terrorism.
didymus-
Very nice. Was Elizabeth's Inquisition just? The KKK? What about burning churches and rioting against Catholics? Your religion was responsible for all of these things. Protestants even used the bible to support slavery. We are not the only ones guilty of being unjust, my friend. Stop acting like your religion hasn't had a bloody past. I realize that ours has, now it is time for you to realize it.
john14-6,
But Jesus didn’t sanction an offensive war, and both the Crusades and this so-called “war on Terror” are offensive wars. (BTW, both fail Augustine’s theories on what would constitute a “just war”.)
Billy Baker,
You mentioned, “Muslims are not prepared to accept peaceful co existance with Christians, the Koran does not allow it, and it is an unfaithful Muslim who says otherwise”
Here’s the thing, don’t interpret the Koran for them. It’s not your scripture. Don’t put your words into their mouths.
Now for a controversial New Testament verse check it out in your own Bible if you dare at
Luke 22:36. Please note that I do not hate Muslim people, I do hate hypocritical Christians, I realize that hate is a strong word, but I might draw your attention to Psalm 5:5 in this regard.
Other than hypocritical Christians I love all of the people GOD has put in this world, and I am motivated by my love for them to warn them about hell and that the only way for them to escape hell is trust in Jesus.
That controversial scripture is:
"Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." Luke 22:36
Jesus encouraged His disciples to get swords, now dishonest super spiritual "Christians" will call this sword the Bible no friends the word sword is a real sword. Check verse 38 of Luke 22 Note that Jesus does not rebuke the person with two swords.
My purpose in life other than glorifying GOD and enjoying Him forever is to make disciples of the nations, and to preach Christ.
However if any person criminal or otherwise (terrorists Muslim or Irish Catholics) threaten my life or that of a innocent stranger I am duty bound by a loving GOD to defend my life and others as necessary.
Should I go to a Muslim country to preach the gospel, I will not take a sword with me, I would be prepared to turn the other cheek and give my life for Christ if He calls me to do so.
Muslims are not prepared to accept peaceful co existance with Christians, the Koran does not allow it, and it is an unfaithful Muslim who says otherwise, keep in mind that deception is a form of JIHAD or holy war, I wonder about the true intention of those Muslim scholars who sent the letter seeking peace, they have got all "stupid" Christians confused. Remember the lessons of history how supposed Christian Germany talked peace while preparing for war taking over Poland and Austria while America and Britain believed the rhetorical peace.
Love Muslims but do not trust them, preach Christ to them, they will go to hell unless we do.
.
My point was not that we become recluses, but we are instructed to not be "friends" with the world. The life we live in front of the world should reflect Yeshua and have his impact on them through us. We are to share Yeshuas' message with them. What the scripture was telling us was to not allow the ways of the world to mix in with who we are thereby bringing idols so to speak into our midst. As did Israel many times when God would instruct them to not adopt the idol worship of either their captors or those they conqured. We are to not allow any of the worldly influences become part of who we are, hence, do not be friends with the world.
TUPRBABE & john14-6,
1. When a handful of moderate Muslims come along and ask for a dialogue, so we can try to work towards peace in our communities, what do we tell them? Do we tell them, “You don’t exist, you’re really just fanatics wanting to kill us!”, or do we tell them, “We will only talk to you if you convert! Accept Jesus now! Or go to Hell!”, or do we just tell them, “Stop killing people, or I’ll kill you!”
What are you implying that we should do? Should we hate them back because they hate us? Just because a few Muslims hate us, because were Christians, how does that change our Christian response to them? There were a lot of Romans in the Roman Empire who liked BBQing Christians, who liked nailing us to wood, who liked using us as cat food, but that didn’t change the Christians response of love for their enemies. So… what are you implying, per your comments, that we should do?
2. We need to stop putting Islam into a tight interpretive box that doesn’t actually exist. Think of how many different types of Christians there are; Orthodox, Catholic, Mainline Protestant, like the Anglicans, and their sub-sub-group the Episcopalians, Lutherans, Calvinists, and other various Reformed Theology types, Baptists (and all their minions), the Restoration Movement folks, like the churches of Christ, Christian churches, and we can’t forget the Fundamentalists, and wacko-cultists. They don’t all believe exactly the same thing; they don’t all interpret the Bible the same way. The same dynamic is going on in Islam; there are Sunni, there are Shi’a, and there are various types of Sufi’s in both, etc. They don’t all believe exactly the same thing; they don’t all interpret the Koran the same way. It simply doesn’t reflect reality to put Muslims into a kind of literal interpretation straightjacket.
"But I am not going to apologize for the Crusades because I am very thankful that the Muslim effort to reach a conquest of Europe was unsuccessful."
Would that happen today? oh the good old days when there was a recognized leader of the Christian world who was able to protect all Christians in Europe.
Some things about to come out, about the Koran, that are not going to make Muslims very happy. It's about time scholars began to speak out about the origins of the Koran:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JA15Ak03.html
thelordismylight--I have been similarly treated by folks claiming to be Christians. I found in that experience more confirmation of just what Jesus meant and to what depth his words were to be taken. Paul calls it a privilege to suffer and invites believers to join him. Polycarp and other early church leaders understood that Jesus actually lived what he said. They understood they were to do the same. Paul and Silas sang hymns in prison and brought the jailer to Christ after protecting his life when they had been treated unjustly and illegally beaten. Do you truly follow Jesus, or is faith only to be accepted in comfort?
Good idea, theotrek. Go sacrifice yourself to them. Let them burn you. Whenever I see a Jehovah's Witness I will think of you.
TUPRBABE--Quoting lines from the Koran that deal in violence in order to discredit the religion wholesale is like quoting from the Bible "bash their babies heads on rocks" to discredit Judaism and Christianity. Remember David Koresh called himself a Christian. Hitler did as well. I don't view either as representative examples. Painting Islam with a broad brush because of minority radical groups or selected phrases is disingenuous at best. It does serve to rouse suspicion, insecurity, and foment support for war. That is about all it is good for.
thelordismylight--How did Jesus respond to innocent people suffering? He did not start a war. He told Peter to put down his sword. He chose to die. He placed his life on the line on behalf of others. He did not resort to force or violence, even though it was well within his power. He also did not do nothing.
Violence breeds more violence, even when it is wielded "for all the right reasons." America is too conditioned to the use of force in settling disputes. Someone commented the US has been in some war or other every twenty years. This is not Jesus' way. Force does not bring peace. It brings anger, grief, and unrest.
Theotrek-
I realize what didymus was trying to say. Even though war is wrong, it is also wrong to accuse one person of being bloody when you have just as if not even more of a bloody past. War for just the heck of it was not sanctioned. However, would Jesus want us to sit and do nothing while innocents suffered? Not the Jesus I know.
January 14 - 2008
Ref: jonathanjkim Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:30 am
Christians and Jews living in Muslim nations never had any problem and countries like Iraq and Syria maintained a good balance of coexistence. But the invasion of Iraq by USA chnaged the plight of Iraqi Christians. No matter what anyone says about Saddam Hussein, he preserved Christianity in Iraq like he preserved his own rule. Michelle Aflaque and Tariq Aziz were the best examples of Iraqi Christians who left a significant mark in Christian existence of Iraq.
The invasion by so called Crusaders from America not only allowed the killing of Muslims in Iraq but Christians were also targetted by anti-American forces. Now Americans lick their fingers for their mistakes. Mind you out of 100 Iraqis killed everyday in Iraq, 99.80% were Muslims.
January 14 - 2008
John 14 - 6, inadvance 41, and TUPRBABE.
" GOD: there is no god except He; the Living, the Eternal. He (The-God) sent down to you this scripture (The_Qur'an), truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He (The-God) sent down the Torah and the Gospel. Before that, to guide the people, and He sent down the statute book. Those who disbelieve in GOD's revelations incur severe retribution. GOD is Almighty, Avenger. Nothing is hidden from GOD, on earth, or in the heaven {The Qur'an - Surah Ale Imran (Chapter: the Amramites) 03: 01 - 05}.
January 14 - 2008 08:11 PM ET
TUPRBABE
You must be a nice human but your comments are horrendous and absolute lies about Muslims and the religion of Almighty The-God Islam/Shalom/Monotheism.
Oglefam--James 4 is about not allowing the world to change our discipleship commitment to Christ. How are we to be salt and light if we become recluses? Jesus talked of not removing us from the world, but being agents of change within it.
I won't deny that materialism is just as much in direct opposition to Christianity and Jesus as Islam is. However, I don't consider materialism a direct creation of the devil, per-se, but of man's fallen nature and man's selfish desires (our ability to covet has no limits, it seems).
the opposite of christian is whatever keeps you from acting like Jesus, I say materialism beats islam hands-down.
"The crowd is untruth" Soren Kierkegaard.
No other person speaks for me. Those that sign their names to represent christianity lack humility. Just DO. Truth is what actually happens, not what you say you believe will happen or what you would like to have happen. Make shalom not big fat waves of hot air.
Just shut up and do something. Signing your name or creepin out because someone else did isn't doing something. Help dig a well, bring a homeless person into your home, give some money to micro-finance. Stop worrying about all the so-called leaders. Let some fat head worry about theology. The Kingdom of God is in the heart, not the mind or the building or the "10 million copies sold". Leaders are those that sit and mourn and weep over broken shalom and leaders are also those that will live lives of sacrifice so others can be lifted just an inch out of suffering. YOU BE THE LEADER AND LET CHRIST SPEAK THROUGH YOU.
Wow, up for 5 minutes and already a downward thumb. Guess people just can't take the truth.
If you'd like verification of everything I just wrote (and not be a "shameful fool," as in Proverbs 18:13), please visit some of the following websites:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/
(New article today about the new Muslim "Jesus" movie - the one in which Allah saves him before he's crucified, assumes him to paradise, and puts Judas on the cross instead.)
http://www.joels-trumpet.com/
Also take a look at Joel Rosenberg's book, "Will Islam Be Our Future?" for more info linking the Imam al-Mahdi and Issa to the Antichrist and False Prophet. Link here:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/index.htm
Finally, somebody gets it! There is no "common word between us and them." The Quran says that followers of Allah are to love death more than life, to corner Jews and Christians if they see them in the street, to extort them under Jizyah, to subdue them, and to ask Allah for guidance (read: how should I kill them) if they refuse to become dhimmitized (second-class citizens with little, if any, rights).
While Jews and Christians are called "people of the Book" in the Quran and Muslims are told to "respect" them (in other words, not to respect their beliefs, but rather to offer them Islam peaceably at first instead of by force), later on they are referred to as "apes" (Jews) and "pigs" (Christians).
There is also the idea of Taqqiyah, which says that in a time of war (which we are in right now), it is perfectly acceptable for Muslims to LIE about what they believe. The Quran is a peaceful, enlightening book of love? Big lie there.
Even their so-called messiah, the "Imam al-Mahdi", is demonic. When comparing the hadiths describing him to those in the Biblie regarding the Antichrist, the similarities are shockingly similar. Muslims even tell Christians that the Mahdi is in the Bible - the rider on the White Horse. And their version of Jesus - "Issa" - is quite similar to the False Prophet.
Point blank, Islam is a satanically inspired religion of death and hate, whose sole purpose is to destroy the Jews and Christians.
"THE-GOD: there is no other god besides Him, the Living, the Eternal. Never a moment of unawareness or slumber overtakes Him. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. Who could intercede with Him, except in accordance with His will? He knows their past, and their future. No one attains any knowledge, except as He wills. His dominion encompasses the heavens and the earth, and ruling them never burdens Him. He is the Most High, the Great" {The Qur’an – Chapter: The Cow - 02:255}.
“Jesus said that we are to be friends of the entire world, regardless of their response.” If this is the case then are we to ignore James 4:4?
Billy--The crusades were political opportunism abusing religion as a means for wielding power over others. They were blatantly against the teachings of Jesus. He refused to get sucked into politics. He refused to use force to bring about God's reign. Genesis 6 declares that violence was the sin that caused God such great grief in the time of Noah. Jesus talked about spreading God's reign through acts of love, reconciliation, and forgiveness. "Live by the sword, die by the sword" sound familiar?
Jesus said that we are to be friends of the entire world, regardless of their response. Isn't that He meant by love your enemies, turn the other cheek, and forgive 70 times 7? It is only through love, care, and friendship that we can open conversation and thus share the reality of faith in Christ. Shutting people out does not advance the cause of Christ. It only advances the cause of one's political progress and kingdom-building.
Even here in South Africa we know that the crusades were nesessary. The Koran says that muslims can not be friends to Jews and Christians, what can be clearer than that, the only time a Muslim (A true muslim) can be your friend is if that person is liberal in his belief like so many Christians (Rick Warren, Bill Hybels and co)
There is only one GOD and He is revealed in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I for one am impressed with Ps Mohler.
It mortifies me whenever I hear someone saying that we are helping Iraqis. Our churches and its pastors must be teaching that we are doing good in Iraq. Remove dictator and free Iraqis.
3% of Iraqis were Christians, Assyrians and Chaldeans, before the war. They had been practicing Christianism there since the biblical time. Half of them left after the war and remaining half in under threat of death.
If I turn a secular nation which tolerated Christianism to a radical fundamental Muslim nation, am I not Anti-Christ? At least, it would be anti-Jesus wouldn't it? We should not judge a person, but fruit that bears tells tales.
Muslims has lived and tolerated Christians for centuries. It is a very recent event where such evil fundamentalism spread in all Arab nations and created anti-Christian, anti-American movement. We have to focus our target at that. There are definitely violent arms of Muslim terrorist that we have to deal with. But most of Muslims are not that. Jesus would have asked what can I do for you instead of spraying M16 on their family, even if it is done accidentally.
Mohler says that the US government and the church are separate entities and the latter should not be apologizing for the former. I made the same comment in a previous submission and somehow got flagged. I think the CP needs some kind of editor to take this flagging business in hand.
Another point. According the the CP, Eden says, "The best way to clarify the confusion is through close conversation." Communication that either blurs or fails to clarifies Christianity's basic tenets and standpoints ADDS to the confusion and is therefore worse than no communication at all.
Concerned Christians in America should be sending letters to the signatories asking, "Who appointed you to speak in our name?" For that matter, so should the US government!
I’ve reposted the pertinent parts of my conversation on my blog (for fun), just in case the censor comes back.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/2008/01/crusades-religious-right-propaganda-and.html
:^)
to the one who flags other people's opinion:
remember, what you sow is what you reap
If there are any self appointed censors here, please speak up and let us know why you think we should be silenced. I’d appreciate it. Thank you.
didymus:: "Well, I get back on and noticed that several of my posts have been flagged. I guess what I have to say is unacceptable for some folks here".
I'm having some of that too. Some censorship going on here.. Some people can't handle the truth nor opposing view points.
thelordismylight:: "would you want someone just to sit there and watch as you got the royal tar beaten out of you? I certainly wouldn't. Go get shot in the leg by a corrupt police officer, or go get blown up in the street in Iraq, or go drink from a well and risk getting killed by poison, then talk about turning the other cheek."
well, bush really took care of those problems....LOL
Interviews and polls taken of the way Iraqi's felt about their country before and after the invasion seem to indicate that the average Iraqi felt more secure and better off economically than today. The Iraqi people did not ask to be "liberated" by the US. There is in fact a tremendous level of resentment by most Iraqi's towards the US because of the invasion which they did not want or ask for. The average person in Iraq, and indeed the average citizen of the Middle East , understand why the US attempts to impose its will in the ME. Its simple, its mainly about OIL.
<REPOSTING>
Galahad,
The idea that the Crusades were wars of “self-defense” is laughable, and that we should not be ashamed of them is weird, but to say we should be proud of them is just plane sick.
Your “facts and dates” paint a picture that is mostly propaganda. It ignores the motivations for the wars, and their offensive nature; it ignores the often positive conditions that Christians enjoyed under the Muslim rule before the Crusades (think of John of Damascus, a Doctor of the Church, where he lived, and even was able to write what he did, and the Christians actually living in the Holy Land didn’t support the First Crusade when it came); it ignores the fractured condition of the Muslims at the time, since they were fighting amongst themselves, (that was the real innovation of Saladin, to unify the Muslims, which he was only able to do because of the First Crusade’s successful campaign); it ignores the counter productive nature of the Crusades altogether. The Fourth crusade that you mention was sent “again because Jerusalem was occupied by Muslims”, never got to Jerusalem. They sacked the city of Constantinople, and destroyed the Byzantines instead. It was just Catholic Christians killing Orthodox Christians in 1204, probably the lowest point in all of Christian history.
You ignore the fact that the First Crusade was the only successful crusade of the bunch, all those that followed ended in defeat for the “Christian” armies, and only succeeded in solidifying Muslim hatred for Christians.
Let’s see… I still have a couple of the last ones saved where I composed them. I’ll just repost them and see if they stay this time.
<REPOSTING>
john14-6,
Justifying a crusader war/mass murder, responding to evil with evil, is not standing up in opposition to world – it is being the world.
Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” But your comment turns that on its head and basically said, ‘resist the evil person… let him know who is boss.’
When Jesus said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you”, personally, I think he meant it, and that he would include Muslims. Another thing I think you should notice, Jesus didn’t use an M-16 on the demon possessed, he didn’t drop a 500lbs bomb on the moneychangers, because that wouldn’t be standing up to the powers of darkness, it would be becoming the powers of darkness.
Honestly, if you where really radical for Jesus, when the enemies of God came for you… you would die for them, and not try to justify war against them.
Think for moment… imagine if the Muslim armies had taken all of Europe, and forced us all to learn Arabic. The Catholic Church would of never have become what it did become, it never would have become politically powerful, fat and rich. There never would have been a Reformation, there would have been no need. The church, persecuted, but responding with kindness; hated, but responding with a radical love for their neighbor. Hmm… They probably would have converted the Muslims a long time ago to Christianity, just as they did the pagans of the Roman Empire.
Well, I get back on and noticed that several of my posts have been flagged. I guess what I have to say is unacceptable for some folks here.
Jesus did say turn the other cheek... but he also said treat your neighbor the way you would want yourself treated... Iraq is our neighbor... would you want someone just to sit there and watch as you got the royal tar beaten out of you? I certainly wouldn't. Go get shot in the leg by a corrupt police officer, or go get blown up in the street in Iraq, or go drink from a well and risk getting killed by poison, then talk about turning the other cheek. Do you have the right to turn someone ELSE'S cheek? Suffer as they suffer and THEN make the decision.
citsonga--I couldn't agree more. I find it interesting that Genesis 6 defines the sin which most troubled God was violence. It should be obvious, but we are too socially conditioned to think supporting war is the only patriotic and Christian thing to do, much to God's grief.
yes theotrek I get your point, thank you. I was just stating that there are some folks that claim to be Christian, yet seem hypocritical to me on issues such as war and capital punishment.
citsonga-- Please don't confuse faith and God with those who would utilize religion to control others. Jesus did not use that kind of control or sponsor war and violence. While atheists and agnostics may be against war, you will also find that there are several "historic peace churches" that have also stood firmly against war (i.e. Quaker, Mennonite). Hitler got a degree of church backing, but that was after forcing out those with a conscience to put others into place who would go along with his whims. The crusades were Christian in so much as various princes claimed Christianity and abused it for their own political ambitions. Marx was not quite right in saying that religion is the opiate of the masses. What he should have said was that religion is often abused to control the masses by those who would used religious structures for personal gain.
Well these posts are very revealing, religious wars are stiil a part of the ignorant masses. Not much different than during the Middle Ages in many respects. Cristians killing Muslims, Mulsims killing Christians, each side claiming to know the "universal truths". Silly and rediculous stuff.
Another reason to be a agnostic or atheist.
Interesting thing about many religious folks on the boards here- Advocated invading countries (Vietnam, Iraq, Iran to name a few) with the killing of millions, support capital punishment. My agnostic and atheistic friends oppose these things...just an observation. They are more "thou shalt not kill" than the religious folks that claim to live by this.
thelordismylight::
"I have a respect for someone that has a FIRM belief. Not someone that is "Well maybe...""
FIRM belief, hmmm, interesting. Before Copernicus and Galileo, there was a FIRM belief that the earth was the center of the universe- all the planets and the sun revolved around a stationary earth. Most people today dont hold that FIRM belief, perhaps you do.
Your FIRM belief would seem to imply that you are not going to change your view, no matter what the evidence might be. Similar to the dogma of the Catholic church at the time of the aforementioned scientists I suppose.
As an agnostic, I do not know whether a creator exist. Its possible a creator exists, its possible a creator does not exist. Lets assume for the sake of argument that a creator exists, I certainly would have no idea on the nature of the creator as many on these posts seem to think they do, its laughable My interests are in science to understand the nature of the universe- quantum physics and relativity. In the last 100 years, science has taught us much about the nature of the universe. Religion has taught us nothing about that. In fact the conversations on these boards about the god and the universe are pretty much the same as they were 100 years ago and 1000 years ago...probably will be the same 100 years from now. In the mean time , science moves ahead to understand the structure of the universe and its origins. Perhaps a creator is part of that, time might tell.
Galahad ,
The idea that the Crusades were wars of “self-defense” is laughable, and that we should not be ashamed of them is weird, but to say we should be proud of them is just plane sick.
Your “facts and dates” paint a picture that is mostly propaganda. It ignores the motivations for the wars, and their offensive nature; it ignores the often positive conditions that Christians enjoyed under the Muslim rule before the Crusades (think of John of Damascus, a Doctor of the Church, where he lived, and even was able to write what he did, and the Christians actually living in the Holy Land didn’t support the First Crusade when it came); it ignores the fractured condition of the Muslims at the time, since they were fighting amongst themselves, (that was the real innovation of Saladin, to unify the Muslims, which he was only able to do because of the First Crusade’s successful campaign); it ignores the counter productive nature of the Crusades altogether. The Fourth crusade that you mention was sent “again because Jerusalem was occupied by Muslims”, never got to Jerusalem. They sacked the city of Constantinople, and destroyed the Byzantines instead. It was just Catholic Christians killing Orthodox Christians in 1204, probably the lowest point in all of Christian history.
You ignore the fact that the First Crusade was the only successful crusade of the bunch, all those that followed ended in defeat for the “Christian” armies, and only succeeded in solidifying Muslim hatred for Christians.
I think we should support Dr Albert Mohler. He is not against contact with Muslim people. We should indeed meet and talk. Many Muslims are indeed peace loving, even though they embrace a faith founded on violence. God the Holy Spirit is active in Muslim hearts, nurturing the seeds of the gospel of love and righteousness that we sow. We should pray that He (the Holy Spirit) may lead to salvation many Muslim people through our endeavours. BUT we should never change the gospel, and never ever meet them as non-Christians. May God give help us to speak the truth in love! (Ephesians 4:15)
thelordismylight -
No actually the Bible tells me that. That's the book that God gave so that we would know about Him. I highly recommend reading it. Be prepared thought, you will find that what your church is doing and teaching, and what's in Gods Word, look very different.
You seem very concerned with how people sleep at night, that's really very nice.
theotrek--or anyone interested in this issue. I recommend reading "Unveiling Islam." It's written by two former Muslim brothers who are now Christian brothers. It'll show you eye-opening differences and history between the two faiths. And, yes, Muslims initiated all battles because it's a large part of their Koranic directive.
My sincere congratulations to Reverend Mohler! My sincere congratulations for what he said and for not signing the letter and for not apologise for the Crusades.
Our God is not Allah, our God reveals Himself through the Trinity and the incarnation of Jesus Christ and we must feel proud to be Christians and when speaking or writing with Muslims or other Religion we must speak and write as Christians. We don’t have to be ashamed of the Crusades; The Crusades were self defense wars. Here are some facts and dates: Cyprus was the first Christian land to be invaded by Muslim Arab warriors in 649. In 653 they invade the island of Rhodes. In 668 they invade Sicily. In 668 and 717 they attacked Constantinople (the city of Constantine, the first Christian King, today Istambul) but didn’t conquered it. In 711 they invade Spain. In 718-732 they continuously attacked the Languedoc (south of France). In 732 they were stopped at Tours by Charles Martel. In 898-973 they attacked Saint Tropez and the south coast of France, murdering and looting. In the mid 1300s they invade Greece. In 1389 Turks Muslims submit and invade the Serbians, the Wallachians, the Bosnians and the Albanians after the battle of Kosovo. In 1009 the Calif al-Hakin bi-AMIR Allah ordered the Church of Holy Sepulchre destroyed to the ground. It was only in 1027/8 that was authorized by the Muslims its rebuilding. The first Crusade appeared only in 1095 after the Bysantin Emperor called for help against the Turks Muslims.The second crusade took place in 1147-1149 because Muslims invade and conquered the Christian town of Edessa. The third crusade took place in 1187 because Saladin did recapture Jerusalem. The fourth crusade was in 1202-1204 again because Jerusalem was occupied by Muslims. The fifth crusade was in 1217-1221 to recover the Holy land. The sixth crusade was in 1228-1229 to deliver Jerusalem, Nazareth and Bethlehem. Seventh crusade happened also because of Jerusalem in 1248-1254. Eigth Crusade in 1270, happened to help the Christian states of Syria against Turk Muslims.The last Crusade, the ninth, took place in 1271-1272 to help the Christians in Syria against the attacks of Turks Muslims. So we have nothing to be ashamed and we have nothing to apologise and we must feel proud to be Christians and proud of our Civilisation.
I am a little fuzzy on my history. I remembered that the Crusades began with "Christian" political leaders rallying armies to "Reclaim the Holy Land from the Infidels." I don't recall that the Muslim armies were attempting to take over Europe, at least not until after we had begun the war... ?
Mohler's position seems to be: We should not apologize, because that would indicate a position of weakness, never allowing us to prove our superiority. He seems to forget the Biblical response of allowing ourselves to be weak, thereby showing our dependence on God's strength. I don't have to come to an issue with an attitude of superiority. I just need to come in love, faith, and humility.
thelordismylight-- I am afraid you did not grasp what didymus was saying. He recognized the bloody past of Christianity, but not as being sanctioned by Christ Jesus. Jesus did not preach war, inquisition, torture, and using the sword to spread the gospel. The institutional church, on the other hand, has done so. Had the church actually followed Jesus' teaching, we would not have had such a bloody history, and the outcomes of sharing the gospel would have been closer to Jesus' own aims.
To all those who profess themselves to be Christians and are arguing, i would advise you to go back and read the comments you have made and see if Christ is being glorified by these comments or if any thing good is coming from them. afterwards go back to the scriptures and see what God has to say.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
tliml, you have not shown respect for Protestants who have a firm belief. Unfortunately, that's just plain fact. If you respond to this with further insults, you will only have proven my point.
I am glad Mohler has taken this stand, has pointed out essential truths we should not ignore. YES, we should love Muslims - we are to love everyone. At the same time, we cannot pretend to worship the same God they worship, for that would not be honest. They are fully aware they do not worship the Lord Jesus Christ. These statements are Biblically honest:
“My concern is that when Christians enter the conversation with Muslims we must enter the conversation as Christians,” he said. “I think when you address a letter to Muslims and refer to God in their terminology then there is a big problem…when Christians enter a conversation, we have to show up as Christians.”
Christians believe in the God who reveals Himself through the Trinity and the incarnation of Jesus Christ, the theologian said.
“This is the God who very clearly identifies Himself and says, 'I am this and I am not anything else.' If you disagree about the identity of Jesus Christ, then you disagree about the identity of God," he added.
Oh not to mention the other countless deaths that pro-choice Protestant churches have caused by not taking a stand. For shame.
didymus-
You are overlooking YOUR religion's bloody past. The Elizabethan Inquisition killed more Catholics and Jews than all of the Catholic Inquisitions combined. The KKK lynched over 20,000 Catholics. Put all of this together and it equals the casualty amount of the first three crusades (Not just the muslim casualties) St. Augustine's Church in Philadelphia was burned by anti-catholic (protestant) rioters and due to anti-catholic feelings, the fire company did not try to put it out. A priest and eight nuns died. St. Blazius parish was burned in the same night by the same mob, there was a mass and 67 people died. They also burned an Irish Catholic school several days later with the children inside, luckily most of them escaped. Some didn't. Did you know that Benjamin Franklin, brilliant as he was, was an extremely close-minded man? He considered all Catholics traitors and participated in the tarring and feathering of nine. Many Catholics were tarred and feathered. This would usually result in alot of infections because when you pull the tar off the skin comes off with it.
Citsnoga-
I have a respect for someone that has a FIRM belief. Not someone that is "Well maybe..."
john14-6,
Justifying a crusader war/mass murder, responding to evil with evil, is not standing up in opposition to world – it is being the world.
Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” But your comment turns that on its head and basically said, ‘resist the evil person… let him know who is boss.’
When Jesus said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you”, personally, I think he meant it, and that he would include Muslims. Another thing I think you should notice, Jesus didn’t use an M-16 on the demon possessed, he didn’t drop a 500lbs bomb on the moneychangers, because that wouldn’t be standing up to the powers of darkness, it would be becoming the powers of darkness.
Honestly, if you where really radical for Jesus, when the enemies of God came for you… you would die for them, and not try to justify war against them.
Think for moment… imagine if the Muslim armies had taken all of Europe, and forced us all to learn Arabic. The Catholic Church would of never have become what it did become, it never would have become politically powerful, fat, and rich. There never would have been a Reformation, there would have been no need. The church, persecuted, but responding with kindness; hated, but responding with a radical love for their neighbor. Hmm… They probably would have converted the Muslims a long time ago to Christianity, just as they did the pagans of the Roman Empire.
thelordismylight "Pah agnostics are only agnostic and not atheist because they are afraid to be. They think "Well, just in case, maybe I shouldn't be a flat-out atheist..." I actually respect atheists a whole lot more than agnostics. Agnostics are atheists that are afraid to be atheists."
your post really indicates your ignorance. Thelordisntshowingyoumuchlight. May I suggest you go and do some research on what an agnostic is. You have not a clue pal.
your post "I actually respect atheists a whole lot more than agnostics"
I seriously doubt you have respect for anyone that doesn't share your point of view.
Pah agnostics are only agnostic and not atheist because they are afraid to be. They think "Well, just in case, maybe I shouldn't be a flat-out atheist..." I actually respect atheists a whole lot more than agnostics. Agnostics are atheists that are afraid to be atheists.
Bertha-
Oh my gosh, they are still telling that to help themselves sleep at night TODAY TOO!
john14-6,
You mentioned, “… so I doubt our theology or doctrine differs much”
No, trust me, we differ a whole lot.
Wow, as an agnostic, its interesting reading the protestant vs catholic fight on the posts here. I'm reminded of the christian religious wars of Europe during the 1600's - The Thirty Years' War, resulting in the deaths of thousands and the destruction of towns and villages.
Another good reason to be an agnostic.
No Protestants broke away because the Catholic church had completely left the original Christian faith.
Let's see, you guys broke off for tons of reasons. Wealth was just a cover-up so you could say you were doing it for good reasons. You just HATED the fact that Jesus loved us enough to give us the Eucharist. You despised the infallible interpreter and you were afraid of purgatory. Tons of reasons. You just used indulgences to help you sleep at night.
You Protestants wanna play the blame game? We have more ammunition. KKK. Queen Elizabeth. Church burnings. Witch burnings. Jehovah's Witnesses :P. Unitarians. Seventh Day Adventists. Close-mindedness about allowing immigrants to come to the U.S. Majority Pro-choice. Majority pro birth control. The Free Mason's 100 year plan to wipe out Catholicism. I could SO go on.
LOL not true. Martin Luther said "The pope knows nothing about anything" If it weren't for your KKK's we would have more Catholics.
thelordismylight,
Well, if it weren’t for your Indulgences there wouldn’t be any of us Protestants. :^)
Not to mention that during the muslim conquest of Spain they were attempting to find and destroy the body of St. James the Greater. No monument for the critic. No wonder there aren't many monuments for PROTESTANTS! :P Seriously, all they ever do is criticize!
I admire the faith people have to be agnostic or athiest....although you can't be a athiest as you'd have to KNOW there was nothing else after life here on earth and you can't answer that till after tou die. We all need faith to beleieve in what we believe. Its just some people place it in the wrong things. But, the people who write they are athiests here this week, may in 2 weeks, 5 years or 20 years be giving the gospel. I was lost until 6 years ago, spent many years critising and insulting those whose beliefs were different from my own, be littling them. Faith comes from hearing the truth.The Word of God, so....all agnostics, athiests, muslims, mormons, hindu's etc can simply read the Bible, many muslims continue to come to Christ as they are exposed to the Truth. Why do you think the Christianity is banned in some arabic countries? because a Bible is mightier than a sword and its the truth that will set us all all free. Truth by being exposed to it and following its insructions, not mans. Its hard for anyone to read through the New Testement with a praying Christian by their side and a questioning open heart without their questions being answered. After all, Its supernatural. Our God (creator God, Father of Jesus Christ) is a God of miracles. So, i'll be continuing to pray for muslims and reach out to them as I do others who are lost in a man made cults, such as mormons, hindu's, bhudists....all eqqually lost and placing their faith in ways that are hopeless, unloving and crippling to humanity.
Most Muslims do not believe in the "trinity," but we need to understand WHAT they mean.
1. The Koran does not actually use the word trinity (in arabic, it is "three," but the English translation wrongly has "trinity" [there is a long story to that]). In passages that say, "they are not three" actually are probably referring to the H.S., Mary and Jesus.
So...most Christians would with them on that point.
2. I personally know people, who have shared this (and Jesus being God's Son) with Muslim leaders (in fact with many of those who signed the "A Common Word" statement) and had them say that it is a viable interpretation within Islamic scholarship (what I've said above). While they have not changed all of their views, they have realized that these Christians aren't really as wacko as they have been thought to believe.
3. Certainly, there are apologies that are needed on both sides, BOTH historically and currently. Those are issues that WILL come up in any meetings of the two side. Persecution of Christians, treatment of churches, etc.
4. BUT, let's not say that we can't take the first step to reach out and begin a discussion just because we can't start by agreeing on everything doctrinally (what would be discussed then?).
5. Lastly, the Center for the Study of Global Christianity has just released an article stating that 86% of the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist of the world do not personally know a Christian.(Evangelical Mission Quarterly, Oct. 2007, Johnson and Tieszen) That is really said. How will we ever share Christ with them if we don't even know then.
SeekingHim - The timeline was in reference to those who said that the Crusades had nothing to do with the attempted conquest of Europe by Muslims.
Gonna need more info on "Kragie" got nothing of interest on Google. Sure your spelling's right?
john14-6,
Wow! Feel free to denounce me as a heretic, because I don’t want my Christianity to have anything to do with your Christianity.
http://didymuspov.blogspot.com/
Baptists talking about Catholics. Go figure.
follower of isa,
when Christ asked us to 'follow Him', it wasnt just a command to imitate Him, which btw we cant (if u want to try keep the 10 commandments fully), but it was rather a command to repent of your sins and believe in Him as Lord and Savior.
Mohler is absolutely right!
Muslims deny that Christ is the Son. (1 John - they are "antichrist" by John's definition). The Koran and Hadiths repeatedly deny the divinity of Christ, deny Christ was crucified, died and was resurrected, deny the Trinity and say all manner of insulting, abusive, horrendous things about Christians, Jews and "pagans".
How dare these evangelical "leaders" send that letter to the 138 Muslim Imams and leaders. They are like so many other Christians who confuse "meek" with "weak". How far will we go to appease Muslims? Will we deny the Trinity, deny the Son, deny Christ as Lord and Savior all in some nebulous vague effort to make Muslims feel better or "like us"? It isn't going to happen. The only thing that will make them feel better, or like us, is to have all Christians convert to Islam.
Ask what Muslims have ever done to apologize for conquering Christian lands? Most of the Middle East - Turkey, Syria, Lebannon, Egypt, Iraq, Palestine, etc, were *Christian* lands before they were violently conquered by the Muslims. Is there going to be an apology forthcoming for that? We allow mosques to be built all over Europe and America but never confront Islam and Muslims about the denial of basic human rights for those of minority religions in majority Muslim nations.
Christians are not allowed to repair their churches, they must accept "dhimmitude" - second class status - they have it made known to them that they are "inferior". They cannot ring church bells, they cannot celebrate in public, etc, etc, etc. The Saudis will not let any Christian churches to be built in their nation. They will snatch away crosses or confiscate Bibles from anyone entering their country. Imagine the hue and cry if the reverse were done to Muslims when they visited a Western nation! In fact, any "infidel" who enters Mecca is subject to be put to death.
Muslims have much to apologize for, and to account for. It is a faith in open hostility towards all other faiths. Christians should pray for Muslims, but we should not bow to them, or bow the knee to Baal - "Allah".
citsonga,
i am also an agnostic. the only difference is i define agnostic differently. i believe that an agnostic is one who believes in a monotheistic God. but this isnt what u understand by agnostic. so when i say we are both agnostics lets get along together, we arent approaching the issue honestly. the question isnt about 'monotheism'. the question is about what we mean by 'God'. i can concoct a monotheistic religion where my God is the almighty dollar. So does that mean my God is the same as Islam. no.
the christians and muslims both believe they are right. no one is going to compromise for the other. but we should atleast approach every conservation with honesty. both of us sincerely believe the other is wrong and no amount of conversation is going to change that because our fundamental conceptions of God are different. but that doesnt mean we shouldnt live in peace.
well akonda, as an agnostic, i'm not going to get into the silliness of discussing the nature of god except to repeat what I stated earlier, both are monotheistic and as such would be the same God. It would appear that you suffer from the same problem that many religious folks suffer from- you believe your point is the correct one and others are terribly wrong. A very good reason to be an agnostic I think, I recognized that I dont know. Many religious folks (christians, muslims and jews) I have known can be best described as delusional as they are convinced their view is the correct one, the others are wrong.
oops, forgot to mention that the quote below is from Gresham Machens - Christianity and liberalism.
But unfortunately language is valuable only as the expression of thought. The English word "God" has no particular virtue in itself; it is not more beautiful than other words. Its importance depends altogether upon the meaning which is attached to it. When, therefore, the liberal preacher says that "Jesus is God," the significance of the utterance depends altogether upon what is meant by "God."...It may well be doubted, however, whether the assertion, "I believe that Jesus is God," or the like, on the lips of liberal preachers, is strictly truthful. The liberal preacher attaches indeed a real meaning to the words, and that meaning is very dear to his heart. He really does believe that "Jesus is God." But the trouble is that he attaches to the words a different meaning from that which is attached to them by the simple-minded person to whom he is speaking. He offends, therefore, against the fundamental principle of truthfulness in language. According to that fundamental principle, language is truthful, not when the meaning attached to the words by the speaker, but when the meaning intended to be produced in the mind of the particular person addressed, is in accordance with the facts. Thus the truthfulness of the assertion, "I believe that Jesus is God," depends upon the audience that is addressed. If the audience is composed of theologically trained persons, who will attach the same meaning to the word "God" as that which the speaker attaches to it, then the language is truthful. But if the audience is composed of old-fashioned Christians, who have never attached anything but the old meaning to the word "God" (the meaning which appears in the first verse of Genesis), then the language is untruthful. And in the latter case, not al] the pious motives in the world will make the utterance right. Christian ethics do not abrogate common honesty; no possible desire of edifying the Church and of avoiding offense can excuse a lie.
http://www.biblebelievers.com/machen/machen_ch4.html
citsonga,
unfortunately there is a slight problem with ur logic. the God of Islam is not a triune being like the God of the Christians. of course we can always hide behind ambiguous terminology to promote peace but it isnt honest.
Simple Logic.
Muslims worship their god as Allah.
Christians call their god God.
Both are Abraham monotheistic religions.
THEREFORE
Both religions worship the SAME entity.
jenna in the UK:
Be sure when you read the Koran that you remember that the "people of the book" are Christians and Jews. There are many favorable comments about/to those groups.
Also, I know many who have found friendship with a Muslim to greatly help in their own understanding and perspective towards Muslims. If you or others in your church (I assume you go??) don't already, why not befriend a muslim woman (I assume Jenna is a female). As you share your faith (assuming you are a Believer in Christ) focus on Jesus, NOT on Christianity.
When I said "Jesus did tell people to follow a religion" I meant to say "Jesus did not tell people to follow a religion".
kpercy07: the idea that "Allah" does not equal "God" doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying the word "Allah" doesn't mean God? It seems to me that some people who believe in Allah believe in the same God that Christians believe in. I'm not saying everyone who worships Allah believes in the same God as the Christians, but I am saying that some do.
I can't help but think that Mohler is forcing his own American Christianity onto others. Jesus did tell people to follow a religion. He said "Follow me."
There have been centuries of animosity and violence between Christians and Muslims. I believe reaching out and advocating peace is a step in the right direction.
Help me "Bertha" to know WHY a timeline answers the question as to how Crusades were a good idea for Christianity and why it make them "right" the eyes of anyone? Would it prove to Muslims that we were RIGHT in those actions and motives? (I've found that trying to prove your side or point rarely gets anywhere with people.)
Doesn't being a Christian have something to do with love, grace, truth, etc.
(To try and avoid posts about war in the O.T., most conservative scholars would view the war of the O.T. to be a holy war to establish God's people, but NOT as an on-going strategy. See Kragie's book on holy war in the O.T.)
Here is a timeline of the Crusades. It outlines what was attacked and when. It looks like Pastor Mohler is right.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/crusades_timeline.htm
There are so many things to say, that the comment about "angels (not angles) on the head of a pin" almost applies. BUT only if you have your head in the sand. This discussion impacts, directly or indirectly, relationships between more than 2 billion people!
Here are a few points:
1. What we CALL God does not define Him (as if he can be defines by limited humans). There are many things that Muslims and Bible believers (including OT observant Jews) agree on. It should be noted that there are millions of Christians who speak Arabic and use the word Allah for what we call God (in Christianity). By the way, the word "god" has a more pagan background that Allah. I use it (God) because it has been redefined by Biblical history and subsequent Christian history. I would probably use Yayweh if people knew what I was talking about.
2. Christians used the word Allah for God BEFORE Mohammed was born.
3. My concern for Mohler is not how off he may be about the crusades (I think he might have a bit to learn there, even though he reads a book a day or so), but that he just unnecessarily offended millions of CHRISTIAN brothers and sisters in Christ (not to mention Muslims) by suggesting that it would be BAD if we all spoke Arabic. I realize that he is using typical Southern Baptist rhetoric (which Church people like to hear). He is, of course, implying that without the VERY miss guided efforts of the "soldiers for Christ" that Western Civilization as we know it would not be. (As a side point, what does that say of God's sovereignty, which Mohler is very high on?)
I say "unnecessarily offended" because it should be the gospel that offends, or the cross of Christ, NOT Western Civilization or our perspectives on history.
4. Have any of the "nay-sayers" here actually READ the "Christian Response to 'A Common Word Between You and Us.'" Unfortunately, Michael Vu didn't put the link: http://www.yale.edu/faith/abou-commonword.htm
5. You can also read the original A Common Word Between You and Us statement at:
http://www.acommonword.com/
Enough for now.
Here in good old England UK, we are tolerance personified. The muslims say they want to work with us, but steadily they are taking over. Now, they want to make a call to prayer three times a day from the mosque in Oxford!!! Most muslims have no interest in knowing our God, or our Jesus as God, they just want to blend in and then once there are enough of them - MPs in parliment - important people on the ground - theywill change our laws and our way of life. I am not saying that muslims are all bad and wicked - just that their aim is to CHANGE the society that so lovingly accepts and tolerates them. We in this country are no allowed to discuss our religion too much with muslims in case we cause offence. It's all about political correctness. If you don't believe me, come to Birmingham or Leicester - come and see the mosques the muslims have built and how they are fully allowed to make the call out from the mosque to prayer. If anyone complains, they rise up and say - it's no different than having church bells ringing. We have to defend our society, defend our Christian faith. I read the Koran recently, the muslims have no such tolerance for us Christians or Jews.
Didymus: If the basis of this document was coming together as human beings in the interest of peace, that's one thing. The implication, however, that we can "love God together" assumes we have the same God, and we do not. You are a thinker, frustrated by our notorious Christian parochialism towards an inherently good idea. But this initiative was poorly couched. You may rail as you wish, but Allah *does not* equal God.
1. Since Mohler is an educated man, and even a surface review of the Crusades will reveal that they had nothing at all to do with a Muslim conquest of Europe, his comments concerning the Crusades can only be described as either willful ignorance or deception.
2. Mohler’s comments concerning the war on terror ignores the overwhelming support American Christians gave to the war (and unfortunately still give to the war, displaying a full blown lack of repentance) making the war in Iraq practically a modern day Christian Crusade.
3. Mohler’s comments display a total lack of understanding of why 300 other Christian theologians would sign the document. (As SeekingHim highlights below.) Trying to find avenues for peace is more than just shoving our doctrine down their throats and demanding they accept our point of view or else.
Why doesn’t Mohler just say that he thinks Christians need to enter this conversation as conservative Republican warmongers as well as being Christians? I find Mohler’s Orwellian remarks (war is peace, ignorance is strength) repugnant. He should be ignored.
How about we debate how many angles can dance on the head of a pin too. Absolutely silly stuff here.
What Warren et. al (and me) were thinking was that signing this statement was NOT signing a doctrinal statement. It was NOT listing all the thing that we believe or that are true (which are sometimes different). It WAS starting a discussion. There are MANY issues that MUST be brought up in any kind of discussion. The Muslims do NOT want a dialog with typical "liberals" that don't believe anything but peace. They WANT to engage with those who, like them, hold to solid truth.
Although it is hard to tell because of the comments at the end of the CP post above, I think Mohler may not realize that these efforts are not intended to "give up" any doctrine noted above. They are intended to enable us to get past the influence of the extreme factions in both of our religious traditions.
“This is the God who very clearly identifies Himself and says, 'I am this and I am not anything else.' If you disagree about the identity of Jesus Christ, then you disagree about the identity of God," he added.
Well said Mohler! It is sad to see these men compromise biblical truth for the sake of unity.
amazing. When will people wake up? I wonder what Warren, et.al were thinking?