Presidential candidates were urged to resist divisive religious rhetoric and respect religious freedom while on the campaign trail by a group of Christian leaders Tuesday.
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(Photo: AP Images / LM Otero)Republican presidential hopeful former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney watches Republican presidential hopeful former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee on the television on Michigan primary day in Southfield, Mich., Tuesday, Jan. 15, 2008.
More than two dozen Evangelical, mainline Protestant and Catholic leaders signed the statement titled, “Keeping Faith: Principles to Protect Religion on the Campaign Trail,” which affirmed three principles to protect religion during the presidential race.
The principles are: avoid using religious or doctrinal differences to marginalize or disparage each other; acknowledge that no single faith has an exclusive claim to moral values; and recognize that policy positions should reflect the best interests of all citizens regardless of religious belief.
“In this year’s presidential campaign, we are troubled to see candidates pressed to pronounce the nature of their religious beliefs,” wrote leaders in the statement, “asked if they believe every word of the Bible, forced to fend off warnings by a few religious authorities about reception of sacraments, compelled to confront derogatory and false allegations of radical Muslim childhood education, and faced with prejudicial analyses of their denominational doctrines.”
In the race so far, arguably the two candidates whose faith has been scrutinized the most are former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney, a Mormon, and former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, a former ordained Baptist preacher. The former has been criticized for not explaining his Mormon faith and the influence it will have on his presidency, while the latter has been criticized for talking too much about his faith.
On the Democratic side, religious talk has been unusually high with frontrunners citing Bible verses and Sen. Barack Obama even throwing a star-studded Gospel concert in South Carolina.
But with all the religious talk, there has also been judgment of candidates’ faith in both parties.
In response, the Christian leaders denounced “exclusionary religious rhetoric” by candidates as well as “constant scrutiny” of the contenders’ faiths for undermining religion’s role in public life.
Signers of the statement include Brian McLaren, author and founding pastor of Cedar Ridge Community Church; the Rev. Dr. Paul de Vries, president of New York Divinity School and board member of the National Association of Evangelicals; and Dr. Glen Stassen, Lewis B. Smedes Professor of Christian Ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary.
Religious voters will play a key factor in the South Carolina primary in both the Republican, Jan. 19, and the Democratic, Jan. 26, Parties.
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How was it silly? God regenerated the hearts of those pagans due to the living witness of Christ in His children. They did not pick and choose which laws to modify. The laws were modified when the empire came to Christ. The Christian witness in this nation is tainted by the same idol-worshipping (look at all our mega-wealthy Superstars!) materialistic covetous selfishness that stains the secular pagans. Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. Romans 2:1. Through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7:6 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:4. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the leaven of Herod. And remember that judgement begins in the house of God. We are not to judge those outside--how much less so considering the considerable sin in the church of our day.
NOTW-
Yes, you are correct that the law’s purpose is to tell us right from wrong and that we are not justified by the law. However, it doesn’t follow that there should be no law! God has told us how we ought to live (through his Law) and Christians should be concerned that our society has moral laws that are in accord with God’s ways. Your pagan Roman example is silly. Christianity changed many immoral aspects of the Roman law, such as getting rid of infanticide. Likewise today, Christians should be working to remove the unjust law of abortion from our land.
For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emporer. 1Peter 2:15-17. And remember--Peter wrote this while the brothers and sisters were being coated with tar, nailed to posts, and burned as streetlights. Law did not win the day; love for God and man did.
How about legislation against self-righteousness, or selfishness, or covetousness--from these spring all sins against both God and man. Has law condemning murder put an end to hate, or law against rape ended lust, or law against theft ended covetousness? Yes, we must love God in all areas of our lives, and that is in the living of that love and forgiveness (Jesus called it our fruit), not in legislating it. No one is justified by the law.
Didn't Paul say something about the law being for those who break the law? Didn't the first Christians live under the harsh rule of the pagan Roman empire, and, without trying to enforce legislation, win over their communities with joy, love, and selfless sacrificial giving? And what about our brothers and sisters doing the same in nations controlled by ruthless communist and muslim regimes? There may be moral or immoral legislation, but morality will not come by the law. Christ said it all begins with the attitude of the heart.
BobCu-
Saying that morality is not rocket science is just another assertion; it is not an argument for where morality comes from, what a moral life looks like, or why I should believe you. I take no comfort in learning that atheists get their morality from chimpanzees.
“Then why are many Christians so immoral?”
This is a fair question. I previously wrote that Christians ground morality in the immutable character of God. This is where the absolute standard of morality comes from. In practice, all people fall short of it, including Christians. If you want to see the ideal lived out, then look at Jesus. He was the only human who never sinned. The rest of us are a work in progress.
“I'm not accountable to your god fantasy. If you want to be a slave of your mythical god, that's fine with me, but please leave people who are not insane out of it.”
I think you have continually misunderstood what I’m claiming. I’m not saying Christians have figured all this out and now we’re forcing it on everyone else. I’m saying that God has revealed himself to humanity and has shown us how we should live. Therefore, when Christians proclaim this, it is not our own ideas. We are simply repeating what God has said. It should be viewed more as informing a terminally ill person that a cure has been discovered for their disease. If you were that sick person, would you accuse the messenger of forcing his cure on you?
NOTW: From your comments I think you understand the importance the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment. I think a majority of Christians agree with you. Unfortunately a minority of Christians don't respect the Establishment Clause and they harm the reputation of all Christians
tgender, morality is not rocket science. You don't need a god to tell you what's right and wrong. Our closest living non-human relatives, the chimpanzees, are altruistic. They take care of each other. That's what morality is, helping other members of the same species. If the chimps can figure it out, then I bet even you can figure it out.
tgender: "For Christians, we ground morality in the immutable character of God. In other words, we know what's good from God's very nature and we know that evil is anything that departs from that."
Then why are many Christians so immoral? Why do they lie to their children about science? There can be no crime greater than lying to gullible children, but Christians do this everyday. Also, there's a large number of Christians who show their disrespect for non-Christians when they try to illegally force their religion into our government and our public schools.
tgender: "Furthermore, we are all ultimately accountable to God for our actions."
I'm not accountable to your god fantasy. If you want to be a slave of your mythical god, that's fine with me, but please leave people who are not insane out of it.
NOTW: “We cannot legislate morality.”
Many people are confused about legislation and morality. For example, slavery and abortion are both considered immoral. Slavery was abolished do to moral legislation. Murder is also considered immoral. The reason why abortion is second guessed in the courts is due to the issue as to whether or not a pre-born baby is a human being (a moral imposed as a result of evolutionary thought influencing the Justice Department). Legislation is the imposition of morals. So when secular humanists decry Christian morality, what they are really saying is that they want it their way. Unfortunately without God there is no standard for justice and morality.
I wrote this post before I read yours tg. Please allow me to echo your thoughts regarding the sheer absurdity of secular humanism.
NOTW-
You wrote "Churchianity needs to humble itself, and return to the Bible. Time to come out of all other arenas."
I agree Christians should be humble. I also agree that we need to read our Bibles for all they're worth. Where in your Bible does it say that "we need to come out of all other arenas"? This entire universe is God's and He hasn't abdicated one square inch of it. He has told us to love him with ALL our heart, soul, mind, and strength; not just in one or two small areas of our life.
NOTW-
You wrote "We cannot legislate morality." All laws legislate morality in some way or another. An obvious example is that we shouldn't murder. If we cannot legislate morality, then we need to remove this law. Same for rape, stealing, lying, etc. The question is not whether or not we can legislate morality, but which morality we will legislate.
BobCu-
You wrote "It's too bad an atheist has to explain morality to a Christian."
As an atheist, I think you have great difficulty in saying anything is moral or immoral because you can't ground it in anything that makes sense. If you say morality comes from individuals or cultures, then morality will always be changing and be different for different groups of people. If you say morality comes from some impersonal "fact" of the universe, then 1) we can't tell what it is and 2) nobody has any real duty to obey it.
For Christians, we ground morality in the immutable character of God. In other words, we know what's good from God's very nature and we know that evil is anything that departs from that. Furthermore, we are all ultimately accountable to God for our actions.
BobCu--
Thank you. I am a Christian. And I do agree--some who call themselves Christians do not seem to understand that we are to humbly serve God and man, not attempt to set up dominion for ourselves under the guise of doing so for Christ--who will handle that for Himself. Thank God I can worship openly and freely in this nation--and if I am mocked and hated, well He said I would be. Churchianity needs to humble itself, and return to the Bible. Time to come out of all other arenas. We cannot legislate morality.
Secular humanism is the religion du jour. Intolerant of any other views, its adherents arrogantly point their finger and cry out "Intolerance!"
seedplanter, I was talking about people who try to stick their religion into America's state and federal governments. It's immoral and the federal courts won't allow it because of the Establishment clause of the First Amendment. To help you understand why it's immoral, how would you like it if a Jewish president or a Muslim president tried to make America a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation? You probably wouldn't like that at all. Neither would I. Now you know what minority religions and the non-religious think about immoral Christians who try to force their religion into a government that belongs to everyone, not just Christians.
It's too bad an atheist has to explain morality to a Christian. Fortunately most Christians know it's in everyone's best interest, including Christians, to keep religions and governments completely separate. It's only a minority of Christians who are doing a good job of ruining the reputation of all Christians.
My sister-in-law, a Democrat, really hopes Huckabee wins the Republican primary. That's not a good sign.
BobCoup d'état: “…it would be immoral for any religion to impose its views on everyone else.”
That is interesting. I thought this is exactly why you are on ChristianPost, unless you have converted while you’ve been gone.
Atheists are always trying to smuggle morality in the backdoor.
BC: “Christians often claim they have a monopoly on moral values…”
Christianity is not a game of Monopoly, but we do recognize the foundation morals. Bob, you tend to make a lot of moral prescriptions for others, how can you assume that right if you do not have a moral authority to do so? Do you think that might is right? Do you have an ethical system of your own that you expect everyone else to yield to?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
You seem to have missed the point of my earlier post. The 'wall of separation between CHURCH and state' is a phrase which was written in a private letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist pastor, to assure him the government would not interfere with Christians' rights as American citizens. It was meant to protect churches from government control.
There is no separation of GOD and state anywhere, in any of our founding documents. Quite the contrary. Our founding fathers, even those who did not claim to be Christians, often acknowledged the Lord.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Even if there was no Establishment Clause, it would be immoral for any religion to impose its views on everyone else. Christians often claim they have a monopoly on moral values, but they don't sound too moral when they deny the existence of our wall of separation between church and state which exists because of the words "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" in the First Amendment.
The 14th Amendment has been used to make sure the individual states respect our wall of separation.
From wikipedia: "Prior to the enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution in 1868, the Supreme Court generally held that the substantive protections of the Bill of Rights did not apply to state governments. Subsequently, under the Incorporation doctrine the Bill of Rights have been broadly applied to limit state and local government as well."
maranatha7593, if you have any questions about the 1st and 14th Amendments please contact the Supreme Court because it's up to them, not you or me.
Sumo: “We need a stronger economy! Mitt is the one who can do it.”
Stay out of debt and your economy will be strong. It takes more than a president to help the economy. Mitt is extremely pro-homo rights. Freedom of speech is priceless. Mitt also wants to enforce national health care.
Mitt is a lib!
I like Mike!
miarvk, do you know of another presidential candidate besides Huckabee whom Bible-believing Christians can support in good conscience?
BobCu, the 'wall of separation between church and state' is a phrase which was written in a private letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist pastor, to assure him the government would not interfere with Christians' rights as American citizens. It was meant to ptrotect churches from government control.
There is no separation of God and state anywhere, in any of our founding documents. Quite the contrary.
"Hopefully God will place into office who America needs and not what we deserve, based on our growing lawlessness,moral and ethical decline."
Amen to this, Oglefam! I've been saying and praying this for the last four elections, at least. It seems that each one is even more crucial than the last, doesn't it?
With all due respect, though, I cannot support Romney, because of his poor record concerning moral issues. As near as I can tell, Huckabee is the only candidate who seems to have a strong Biblical stand on those issues.
I agree with you miarvk, but not fully. I think he is also smarter than that. Which is why when anyone asks him, he says that he appeals mostly to the middle income and small business owner. I also agree with Oglefam.
i like huck a lot but he is banking on the fact that because most americans believe in God they will vote for him
I agree with you on that oglefam:
We need a stronger economy! Mitt is the one who can do it.
http://www.evangelicalsformitt.com
Hopefully God will place into office who America needs and not what we deserve, based on our growing lawlessness,moral and ethical decline. I believe our economy is going to be the albatross of our next president. I like Huckabee for his beliefs, but I prefer Romney and will vote for him tomorrow in our primary as I believe he is best experienced to deal with the economy.
As for whether God is real or not? I believe and know he is, if I placed odds on it, 50/50. If he is not real I have lost nothing. If he is real then standing in front of him on the Day of Judgement with an "oops" look on my face would not be good.
http://atheistsareimaginary.blogspot.com
Huckabee Wins Nomination and Presidency!!!
http://evolutionfacts.townhall.com
tgender: "If God exists, He must be the greatest Being in existence."
Then why doesn't this thing show itself? What's it afraid of?
Comments like yours are the reason we have a wall of separation between church and state.
If you don't respect our wall, or if you deny the existence of our wall, it doesn't matter. If you want to live in this country you can't ignore Supreme Court decisions you don't like.
tgender: "There is a seriously deficient worldview that pervades our society today. This deficiency is marked by two false beliefs: 1) We cannot have objective knowledge of God and 2) There are areas of life—such as govt and science—where reference to and dependence on God should be prohibited. When we ultimately stand before our Creator, both of these false beliefs will be exposed as utterly foolish and judged as nothing less than treason against almighty God."
Good grief tgender. Treason against your fantasies? Treason against your invisible friend?
Thank goodness for our wall of separation.
There is a seriously deficient worldview that pervades our society today. This deficiency is marked by two false beliefs: 1) We cannot have objective knowledge of God and 2) There are areas of life—such as govt and science—where reference to and dependence on God should be prohibited. When we ultimately stand before our Creator, both of these false beliefs will be exposed as utterly foolish and judged as nothing less than treason against almighty God.
Most people act as if beliefs about God are mere personal opinions, like choosing a favorite movie. Personal opinions are subjective truths—they are true for the person holding them, but not necessarily true for others. Objective truths describe what is real about the world. Such truths are universal and exclusive, that is, they are true for all people at all times in all places and they necessarily exclude their opposites. We don’t invent objective truths. Instead, we look for them and we often find them even when they are hard to find. Objective truths are not subject to our opinions, desires, hopes, or feelings.
Whatever is true about God must be true in this objective sense. If God exists, He must be the greatest Being in existence. How can that not be true for all people? If God doesn’t exist, then there is some other explanation for origins, meaning, morality, evil, and suffering. How can that not be true for all people? The world around us is real and it has a specific nature independent of our thoughts or feelings. Our experience tells us it’s the same for everyone. Whoever created the world we experience must be just as real and particular as the world itself. Therefore, we can have objective knowledge of God and we should seek this knowledge like we would other objective truths—using reason, experience, and authority. We act as if people cannot be wrong in their beliefs about God. Not every religion is true and we should stop acting like it’s not dangerous for people to hold false beliefs about God. This is absurd and profoundly dangerous.
Treason is the offense of harming one’s sovereign or violating allegiance to him. If God is indeed sovereign, then every square inch of this universe is His. When, in our arrogance, we try to make rules about where and when God may intrude into our lives, we play the part of God and that is treason against Him. It violates allegiance to Him and belittles His glory. All reality is God’s reality—He created it, transcends it, sustains it, unifies it, and explains it. Excluding Him from any area of life is sheer folly, including science and govt.
I do not mean to say that non-Christians have no place in our society, nor a place in the debate of ideas. All people, irrespective of belief, should be treated with civility and respect. This is the essence of the traditional notion of tolerance. But I am saying that, if Christianity is true, then any view of life that leaves Christ out of the picture is fundamentally deficient and should be rejected.
tgender, "You have already stated your objections to Huckabee based on what he believes. I presume you will base your vote on that, won’t you?"
It's not so much his belief in God I have a problem with. It's more his obvious ignorance of scientific facts that most grammar school students understand. When a presidential candidate says "I don't know" when asked how old is the earth, I have to wonder if he knows anything at all. Also, when a president says he wants to change our constitution to stick his religious beliefs in there, and Huckabee actually said this recently when he was campaigning in Michigan, I have to wonder if he can be trusted to respect minority religions and the non-religious.
I suggested that people who choose a president based on their moral values, should not rule out people just because they are atheists. Atheists I have met are extremely moral. Also, when somebody is hired to be a president of a corporation, nobody cares what his religion is, and nobody cares if he is not religious at all. I don't see why a president of a secular government should be any different. I don't expect our president to preach about the Lord. I expect him to the do the job I hired him to do, and his job has absolutely nothing to do with his religion or lack of a religion.
I admire John F. Kennedy who kept his religion private. That's the way it should be.
As far as post biblical is concerned? Try postbilblical ecumenical councils including the first council of Nicea where we get the Trinity. All of that is just as "post biblical" as the Book of Mormon.
BobCu-
I’m having trouble understanding the following statements you made:
“There's at least 30 million atheists in America. Let's not leave them out of it. Voters should not rule out anyone who has the strongest values just because of what they believe or don't believe.”
How does professing one’s faith in God leave atheists out? That’s what they believe. Are you asking a President who believes in God to not depend on him because there are atheists in America? Everyone acts from their worldview. It is silly and impossible to ask otherwise.
And why shouldn’t voters rule candidates in or out based on what they believe or don’t believe? You have already stated your objections to Huckabee based on what he believes. I presume you will base your vote on that, won’t you?
hthalljr-
I am sorry to hear that you will not answer my questions. Contrary to your reply, I am sincere and am always willing to change my views if I am in error. I think it is dangerous to judge someone’s motives as one cannot really know another’s heart.
Perhaps these questions are “stock in trade” as you put it because these views actually were or currently are views of some Mormons. I took your advice and checked out www.lds.org. I found this quote: “both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers.” So it appears this is an answer to at least one of my questions.
You can find the quote at: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=4a10ef960417b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
A.S. Mathew you make good points, and you are right, Bob is a respectful blogger. Sometimes I ought to learn from you and him.
BobCu: I respect your opinion. As a human being of avearge size and intelligence, I do realize
my inabilities and I do depend upon the Creator's mercy every day. I believe in a living God like
the billions of people who are of different religious background. It takes faith to believe in
God, likewise it takes faith to believe that there is no God. Believers of God blindly tryst that everything came from God, but the atheists believe that everything from nothing. Your comment
pertaining to my blog was highly respectful and I do respect you likewise. I wish, everybody
could express their opinions with your attitude. Regards.
The "signers" of this plea for candidates not to discuss their faith are all of the more liberal left-wing thinking religious leaders. They obviously ignore the Scriptures which teach Christians to "be read always with a reason for the faith wthin you." These "men of the cloth" would rather see all religions molded into the "one world church" which Scripture demonstrate will happen in the end times just before the world is destroyed. They are those that Scrpture talks about when it describes "men will reap unto themselves men having itching ears" i.e. want only to hear what they want to hear and not the truth. I am sorry, but their views are from Satanic infuences.
The basis of true Christianity is the Holy Bible, it is the sole source of true and good Christian doctrine and supports my belief in Jesus Christ and in the redemption He offers me from the wrath (anger) of a great and loving GOD who sent His Holy Spirit to guide me and all true Christians into all TRUTH.
Studying the beliefs of Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness and Roman Catholics, beliefs found in their supporting books and extra biblical sources the Catholic Catechism, Pearl of Great Price, New World Testament.
I see very different doctrines to those taught by the Apostle Paul and for that matter Jesus. For this reason I do not believe that the above organisations are Christian and they are dishonest in claiming the name Christ for them selves, they are if anything Anti-Christ.
We have Muslims here in South Africa claiming that they believe in Jesus, but this is not according to what the Bible teaches but the “Jesus” or Issa that the Koran records. Jesus taught that He is GOD, the Koran does not teach this, and neither do Mormonism or Jehovah ’s Witness, and the Catholics prefer to approach GOD through Mary, instead of obeying Christ’s instructions to approach GOD in His name Jesus.
Paul writes Timothy the following:
“If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,
useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.” (1 Timothy 6:3-5)
and again “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
hthalljr,
Your website test is basically worthless. Just try going to tolerance.org or whatever the site is and see how loving they are of everyone, except for anyone who says they are the only ones who are right (unless that website is tolerance.org which claims that only their extreme tolerant way is right). They will out-do your Mormon site 10 to 1, but it means absolutely nothing! Baptists understand the immense differences between how they interpret the Bible, and how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints interprets the Bible through the book of Mormon. What does the Mormon website say about Islam? Or about Hinduism? Does it accept them as sharing the truth also? If not then your case is over, and if it does, then you have more to worry about than an anti-mormon site on a Baptist page. You forget that in order to be for something you have to be against what is against it. Christ said you cannot serve two masters.
You are right though, what really separates us is interpretation. Just like interpretation separates the Unification Church, Jehovah's Witness, and Unitarian Church from the vast majority of Christians. You cannot all be right, only one of you claiming to have the new and iimproved absolutely correct way can be right, if any.
Summa,
Huckabee is not the only one using faith to get ahead in this race. Romney isn't excluded here. But let's be honest here, one's personal faith and perspective will have a great affect on how he or she will be president. So it is a pretty good idea to know at least where a person stands idealogically.
One reason Romney may not talk about his faith is becuase a lot of people are so ignorant and narrowminded that they would get anything positive out of it, the church is the one resoponsible for explaining doctrine, not Romney. The same applies to Huckabee, except he tries to use his religion to his advantage, smart politics, though a little dishonest.
Anthony Mendoza "amendoza" wrote on Wed Jan 16, 2008, at 7:05 pm:
>I was making a distinction between the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormonism. Also . . . was simply stating a fact although I admit it may have been a little too sarcastic and for that I apologize but do not take away the truth from that statement.
Apology accepted, and thank you.
As for the "truth" of your statement, I affirm that I DO worship the Jesus of the Bible, and I invite, again, both you and "tgender" to respond to my question about whether any of the passages I quoted from the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible in any way. In my humble opinion, these, and many others, strongly reinforce the Bible.
What really separates us are differences of interpretation. Latter-day Saints believe that the creeds of the 4th-century state church of Rome run counter to Bible teachings; you do not. The Book of Mormon settles all those disputes without countering the Bible in any way.
However, in the spirit of the article that started this thread, let us put aside our theological differences and work together for the values that we share.
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr'gmail'com
"tgender" wrote on Wed Jan 16, 2008 at 10:08 pm,
>You said in part of your response to my post: "Puzzled, he asked a Mormon friend what he actually believed, and he joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
>Well, I merely asked you some simple questions about what you actually believe, without one shred of commentary on my part, and you refused to answer them. Why?
Because you are not at all puzzled, and because you are not at all sincere. Your "questions," which are anti-Mormon stock in trade, are in themselves commentary, of the disingenuous "innocent" Huckabee sort. We've had enough Mormon-baiting in this campaign. The point of this article is to put an end to this kind of religious warfare in the political arena.
>You're not even following your own advice.
If you have sincere questions about Mormonism, peruse the official and unofficial Latter-day Saint sources that I gave you. But I will not rise to your bait.
"Please consider answering my questions. If Mormons do not believe these things, I sincerely would like to know."
If you are truly sincere, read the Book of Mormon. Then write to me with any questions you have from it, and I will gladly answer them to the best of my ability.
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr'gmail'com
tgender, I would like to talk to you about science, which is my favorite subject, but not here where it is off-topic. Please visit this Christian Post thread if you want:
Florida School Board Hears Final Evolution Arguments http://tinyurl.com/2uqgtc
A.S.Mathew: "Our President must must be a person of character and integrity, denominational attachments
are less prevalent in the whole equation. If the voters are insisting on having a President
from one particular denominational background, then we are blindly shifting from democracy to
a rule of theocracy. We must put a man having the strongest values and dependence in the
Almighty and who will seek God's face for divine guidence everyday to rule the most powerful country on earth."
A.S.Mathew, your comments are excellent but would have been even better if you left off this part: "and dependence in the Almighty and who will seek God's face for divine guidence everyday to rule the most powerful country on earth."
There's at least 30 million atheists in America. Let's not leave them out of it. Voters should not rule out anyone who has the strongest values just because of what they believe or don't believe.
This presidential campaign has focused much attention on Mormonism but no attention whatsoever to America’s most predominate worldview (functional religion); humanism. Humanism, be it secular or Marxist, has proven to be the most dangerous and deadly worldview (religion) the world, and this country, has ever experienced and the majority of the candidates (most if not all Democrats and some Republicans) are mainly humanist with their positions on progressive issues such as redefining marriage and increasing homosexual rights, increasing taxes, increasing socialist services and governments’ roles in our lives, bowing to globalist agendas such as ‘fixing’ global warming, violating the sanctity of life, abdicating our national sovereignty and abandoning God by ignoring His design for us, our families, the church and the state. I suggest the worldviews (religions) of Mormonism, Christianity and Humanism be fully involved in the campaign rhehtoric and news coverage. The Christian "leaders" referenced in the article are fools for thinking that the religion of the candidates is irrelevant to what that candidate will do when in office. The Total Truth Vs the world's lies are the real issue of this presidential contest.
BobCu said "Since nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution, it's fair to say any biologist who denies the science of evolution is incompetent."
This is called begging the question, which means you are assuming to be true what you are arguing for. In fact, you haven't made any argument at all, just simple assertions and wild claims. Tell me how it all got started. How did life arise from non-life from purely natural and random processes?
hthalljr-
You said in part of your response to my post: "Puzzled, he asked a Mormon friend what he actually believed, and he joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
Well, I merely asked you some simple questions about what you actually believe, without one shred of commentary on my part, and you refused to answer them. Why? You're not even following your own advice.
Please consider answering my questions. If Mormons do not believe these things, I sincerely would like to know.
So...how we have "Mainline(?)" Protestant and Catholic denominations urging the Candidates to shut up about their faith and stop asking questions about others? So, who gave Brian Mclaren and Glen Stassen the authority to speak for the Church. I certainly don't recognize them as such, and as far as I can see, they are more liberal than anything else. It really doesn't matter what these "leaders" say. The candidates should be able to say anything they want about whatever they believe in. Questions need to be asked of Obama's Black separatist church and Romney's Mormon cultism, and Huckabee's mission of taking the country for Christ, and Ron Paul's truly conservative and religious faith. These things matter, and if there needs to be TRUTH with questions, let it fly. Let's not let McLaren and his cronies define the campaign for us!!!
REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!!!
"tgender," on Wed Jan 16, 2008, at 6:48 pm, asked whether or not I believed a shop-worn and long-refuted list of what anti-Mormons say Mormons believe. I choose not favor to favor this straw man with an incendiary response. The sincere seeker can find out for himself what Latter-day Saints believe at lds.org and mormon.org. For unofficial responses from individual Latter-day Saints to stuff like this list, try FairLDS.org, Farms.BYU.edu, and http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/index.html.
However, I do have three simple questions for "tgender," with no intent to entrap or embarrass:
1. Did you find anything false, offensive, or contrary to Biblical teachings in the excerpts from the Book of Mormon which I quoted?
2. Have you read the Book of Mormon?
3. If not, will you read the Book of Mormon?
I would be glad to correspond with any reader, in private, as you delve into this marvelous testament of Jesus Christ. Its purpose has been clearly stated on its title page since 1830, "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL God, manifesting himself unto all nations."
As for the present topic of "Divisive Religious Talk," I invite readers to an experiment: A Tale of Two Web Sites.
1. Try a search for [mormon] at the official web site of the Southern Baptist Convention, sbc.net. The first hit speaks worlds about the “brotherly love” that the the SBC has for Mormons: “The TRUTH about MORMONISM (What you have NOT been told.)” (SHOUTING in the original).
2. Now try a search at lds.org for [baptist]. Oops! Just dozens of references to John the Baptist. Now try [”southern baptist”]. Ah! The first hit, “When thou art converted,” tells the story of an LDS convert who wrote of his childhood, “One privilege I was allowed was to attend a local Baptist church where I gained an independence of thought and action.” Oh-oh! Harsh anti-Baptist rhetoric!
He goes on to tell how while in the military during the Vietnam War he attended a Southern Baptist convention in Japan. “The seminar’s purpose was to discuss the anti-Christ ideologies. The first religion they attacked was not communism or some other godless ideology, but Mormonism.”
Puzzled, he asked a Mormon friend what he actually believed, and he joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But remember, dear reader: thirteen million Mormons don’t really know what they believe -- better ask truth squad at the SBC -- or perhaps an expert on Mormonism like "tgender."
You will not find any anti-Baptist polemic on any official Latter-day Saint web site. How I wish the Southern Baptist Convention would return the favor!
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr'gmail'com
Our President must must be a person of character and integrity, denominational attachments
are less prevalent in the whole equation. If the voters are insisting on having a President
from one particular denominational background, then we are blindly shifting from democracy to
a rule of theocracy. We must put a man having the strongest values and dependence in the
Almighty and who will seek God's face for divine guidence everyday to rule the most powerful country on earth. Most of the politicians play religion and spirituality until they get elected, later
on they act different, that is the sad part of politics and politicians.
tgender: "And the Establishment clause of the First Amendment was NOT written to keep religion out of government, but to keep government out of religion.
If you read the First Amendment you will notice it works both ways, government out of religion and religion out of government. If you don't like that, contact the Supreme Court. It's up to them, not me.
tgender: "Please check out http://www.dissentfromdarwin.com/. It lists more than 700 scientists who doubt Evolution. It is hardly the established fact that you think it is. It has LOTS of problems"
700? Wow! Did you know there's hundreds of thousands of scientists? Did you know out of those 700 scientists, virtually none of them are biologists, and some of them are not even scientists. They are engineers or medical doctors, not real scientists, and certainly not biologists. The small handful of biologists on that list have contributing nothing important to biology in their entire careers. Since nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution, it's fair to say any biologist who denies the science of evolution is incompetent.
Interesting fact: there are more than 700 scientists whose first name is Steve who completely accept evolution.
tgender, nice talking to you and I hope we can continue this conversation in the future. I suggest it would be in the best interest of the reputation of Christianity if Christians respected minority religions by keeping their religion out of our government. It would also help the reputation of Christians if they were pro-science instead of anti-science.
BobCu-
Please check out http://www.dissentfromdarwin.com/. It lists more than 700 scientists who doubt Evolution. It is hardly the established fact that you think it is. It has LOTS of problems.
And the Establishment clause of the First Amendment was NOT written to keep religion out of government, but to keep government out of religion. Read Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Church. They feared that a central government would intrude on their freedom to express their religion and Jefferson was writing to allay their fears.
cwyan: "Huckabee should be tared and feathered for not believing in evolution. All he has to do is look around at all the evidence that supports the 'Theory' of evolution and.... Wait a minute there is no concrete evidence. Even with all the advances in science and technology the 'only' way anyone can see evolution is through animation created with a computer based on someone's idea. Evolutionists believe in evolution the same way we believe in the Bible, with Faith."
cwyan, please stop by this Christian Post thread and watch the videos I recommended.
Florida School Board Hears Final Evolution Arguments http://tinyurl.com/2uqgtc
cwyan: "Huckabee should be tared and feathered for not believing in evolution."
That won't be necessary, but I hope you don't mind if I laugh at him. You can be sure if he is elected president, the rest of the world will be laughing at our entire country.
OK, tgender. Thanks for the correction, but Huckabee saying he doesn't know the age of the earth or universe still shows he has less knowledge of science than most children. He most definitely denies the science of evolution, which is a scientific fact accepted by virtually every biologist in the world. It's obvious Huckabee thinks he knows more about biology than any biologist.
The establishment clause of the First Amendment was written to keep religion out of our governments, and everyone calls it our wall of separation between church and state, including Jefferson and Madison and the Supreme Court. If you want to deny the existence of this wall, and if you have no respect for minority religions, and if you deny scientific facts because they conflict with your religious beliefs, then you should vote for Huckabee.
If somebody wants to be president of a country that has a secular government, and the population of that country represents every religion in the world, and also about 30 million atheists, then he should not be telling everyone who does not share his religious beliefs that they are wrong and only his beliefs are correct. A USA president represents his entire country, not just the majority religion, so he should keep his beliefs private like Kennedy did.
What atheist politicians? In America? Only one congressman in the entire history of our country has ever said he was an atheist. (He did say he believed in a supreme being, his wife). There is so much bigotry against atheists in America it will be centuries before we have an atheist president.
The business of government is not religion and that's why I agree with the topic of this thread "Candidates Asked to Reject Divisive Religious Talk".
Amen tgender!
hthalljr,
I was making a distinction between the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormonism. Also, I am not running for president and was simply stating a fact although I admit it may have been a little to sarcastic and for that I appologize but do not take away the truth from that satement.
God bless,
Anthony
www.anthonymendoza.org
hthalljr-
Do you believe that there is only one and will ever be only one God?
Do you believe that Jesus is eternally God?
Do you believe that Jesus was conceived supernaturally within virgin Mary’s womb and was not procreated through physical intercourse between God the Father and Mary?
Do you believe that he is not Lucifer's brother?
Do you believe that Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection completely atones for all of man’s sins with no works required?
"amendoza" wrote, on Wed Jan 16, 2008, at 10:46 am:
"What the 'Christian' leaders forgot it the fact that Jesus Christ (of the Bible, not the pseudo-Jesus of Mormonism) said he is the way, the truth, and the life.
Whereby amendoza slings his own scoop of anti-Mormon mud!
As a matter of fact, Latter-day Saints fully accept John 14:6. You see, we happen to believe in the Bible. Mitt Romney has already promised, should he be elected, to take his oath of office upon the Bible.
I suspect from the comment about "pseudo Jesus" that amendoza has never read the Book of Mormon. Accordingly, I offer the following brief excerpts, typical of so many therein:
"And now, my son, I have told you this that ye may learn wisdom, that ye may learn of me that there is no other way or means whereby man can be saved, only in and through Christ. Behold, he is the life and the light of the world. Behold, he is the word of truth and righteousness." (Alma 38:9) http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/38/9#9
"And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."
(2 Nephi 31:21) http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/31/21#21
"And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent." (Mosiah 3:17) http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/3/17#17
"And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives." (Mosiah 5:8) http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/5/8#8
"I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell." (2 Nephi 33:6) http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/33/6#6
You see, the Book of Mormon fully agrees with the Bible. It truly is Another Testament of Jesus Christ, and studying it will bring any sincere seeker closer to the living Christ -- the Christ of the Bible AND of the Book of Mormon.
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr'gmail'com
>Huckabee said specifically that he did not know how old the universe was.
>Belief in creationism does not necessarily mean you believe in a young universe.
tgender, all the reason more not to trust Huckabee's social gospel fake Christianity.
Brian Mclaren is so moderate he couldn't divide a deck of cards.
BobCu-
I would respectfully point out that you have several of your facts wrong.
1. Huckabee said specifically that he did not know how old the universe was. Belief in creationism does not necessarily mean you believe in a young universe. Huckabee also never said that “he knows more about science than the entire scientific community.”
2. Where in the Constitution does it say that we must have a separation of church and state? Don’t bother looking because it’s not there. This whole concept has been a distortion of a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote.
3. When you say “the superiority of a religion”, you imply that there is no objective truth about God. Is that what you really believe? So, if God exists, then he actually is different for different people? That’s not true of you and it’s not true of God. The only logical conclusion is that only one or none of the world’s religions are true; certainly not all of them can be true.
4. When a Christian says what they believe is true about God, they are not acting as if there are no non-Christians in America. They are simply claiming an objective truth—like gravity exists. If you disagree what they say about God, then argue the issue; but don’t misunderstand the claim.
5. Saying that we are voting for a president of a secular government implies that there is no room for faith in one’s public life. This is impossible. Everyone lives out their faith, whether that faith is explicit or implicit. Atheistic politicians reveal their faith all the time in the policies that they support and the ones that they oppose. So do Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.
"Since these people are candidates to be president of a secular government, there is no reason for them to talk about religion at all"
Maybe that is why this country's morals are the lowest they have ever been. You don't believe me just turn on the TV and look at all the garbage they are producing.
"There is one thing about Huckabee's beliefs that should be talked about, and that's his belief that he thinks he knows more about science than the entire scientific community. I'm talking about his denial of evolution and his idea the entire universe is 6,000 years old instead of about 14,000,000,000 years old"
Huckabee should be tared and feathered for not believing in evolution. All he has to do is look around at all the evidence that supports the "Theory" of evolution and.... Wait a minute there is no concrete evidence. Even with all the advances in science and technology the "only" way anyone can see evolution is through animation created with a computer based on someone's idea. Evolutionists believe in evolution the same way we believe in the Bible, with Faith.
"I don't expect a president to be a science expert, but the problem for Huckabee is most children know more about science than he does."
Why, because they believe (through faith) what they are taught even though evolution can not be scientifically proven?
Ethan Cole writes, "[Gov. Romney] has been criticized for not explaining his Mormon faith and the influence it will have on his presidency," but Cole does not comment on whether or not the charge is true.
The charge that Romney has not explained his religion is true. Wisely, he refers such questions to leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Such information is available at lds.org and mormon.org.
However, Gov. Romney has made absolutely clear, in his speech "Faith in America," that his church will not dictate to him as president.
http://www.mittromney.com/News/Speeches/Faith_In_America
"Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin.
"As Governor, I tried to do the right as best I knew it, serving the law and answering to the Constitution. I did not confuse the particular teachings of my church with the obligations of the office and of the Constitution – and of course, I would not do so as President. I will put no doctrine of any church above the plain duties of the office and the sovereign authority of the law."
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has itself a strict policy of political neutrality:
http://www.newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/public-issues/political-neutrality
Every candidate should adopt a position like Romney, and very church should adopt a position like that of his church.
Tracy Hall Jr
hthalljr'gmail'com
Since these people are candidates to be president of a secular government, there is no reason for them to talk about religion at all, but Huckabee talks about the superiority of his Christian religion constantly as if there were not any non-Christians in America. I don't think Huckabee could be trusted to respect our wall of separation between church and state, and I recently heard he wants our Constitution changed to accommodate his religious beliefs.
There is one thing about Huckabee's beliefs that should be talked about, and that's his belief that he thinks he knows more about science than the entire scientific community. I'm talking about his denial of evolution and his idea the entire universe is 6,000 years old instead of about 14,000,000,000 years old. I don't expect a president to be a science expert, but the problem for Huckabee is most children know more about science than he does.
Postmodernism is a concept and a movement which seeks to undermine the true gospel of Jesus Christ. It is a deception that teaches there is no absolute truth and that truth is determined by whatever a particular culture deems it to be. In short, it is cultural relativism; no Christian should consider themselves as a postmodernist.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ – Colossians 2:8.
Is it all surprising that the postmodernists are at the forefront of this letter? Are they pushing for some absolute here? Interesting how things can be right or wrong when it matters to them.
I agree with you amendoza. This is just another attempt to relativize truth about God. The truth about God--whatever it is--is true for everbody, not just one's particular community of faith. We need more discussion about what's really true about God in our society, not less.
"acknowledge that no single faith has an exclusive claim to moral values". What the "Christian" leaders forgot it the fact that Jesus Christ (of the Bible, not the psudo-Jesus of Mormonism) said he is the way, the truth, and the life. If we were just another faith that was just one of many true religions, what is the point of the church? are we just another social organization for people with nothing better to do?
I do however, agree that the amount of mud slinging concerning faith is a little much. If we are going to talk about a candidates faith, how bout we ask our questions respectivly.
God bless,
Anthony
www.anthonymendoza.org