An openly lesbian minister's bid to join the clergy may be the first national test of a controversial policy adopted by the Presbyterian Church (USA).
After being denied ordination twice over the past couple of decades because of a ban on ordaining openly gay persons, Lisa Larges made some headway this past week when she gained support from a regional body of the PC(USA).
The San Francisco Presbytery voted Tuesday 167-151 to support Larges' application for ministry. The vote came after a long debate and despite warnings that the action violated the church's constitution and would be appealed.
According to its constitution, the PC(USA) requires "fidelity in marriage between a man and a woman" or "chastity in singleness" for its clergy.
But Larges' third bid comes after the Presbyterian national assembly adopted an "authoritative interpretation" of the ordination standard in 2006 – a decision that opponents say allows some leeway to churches for homosexual ordination.
Larges' latest attempt is thought to be the first test of the 2006 policy, said Jerry Van Marter, news director for the PC(USA).
"I'm in shock," Larges, 44, said of the support she's receiving, according to The Los Angeles Times. "I still feel stunned, honestly, and deeply grateful both to the folks who supported me and to the presbytery for stepping up."
Larges must pass an oral examination, known as the "trials of ordination," by the presbytery before she can be ordained. The test can come as early as April.
But many are hoping to halt the process.
The Rev. Mary Naegeli, who opposed the Larges' ordination on Tuesday, said they are taking "immediate steps" to stop the ordination process. "This really is the defining case for the Presbyterian church on this question."
Larges told the LA Times that she couldn't pursue ministry and stay in the closet after graduating from San Francisco Theological Seminary. She applied for candidacy in the Twin Cities presbytery but was turned down in 1992. She was again rejected for ordination in 2004 by the committee that oversaw candidates for ordination for the San Francisco Presbytery. But the committee let her continue as a candidate.
When the General Assembly approved the policy change in 2006, she decided to try for a third time.
In a "statement of departure," Larges has written that she cannot abide by the church's requirement that she be married to a man or be celibate in order to become a minister.
While Larges has been commended for her giftedness in the ministry and her dedication to her cause, many are opposed to her joining the clergy.
"Lisa has publicly and without ambiguity stated that she will not comply with a requirement for ordination," Naegeli said. "The problem is not the fact that she disagrees with a feature of the church constitution, but that she won't abide by it. And that's a very important distinction."
Also weighing in on the controversy, James D. Berkley, Director of Institute on Religion and Democracy's Presbyterian Action Committee, commented, "A requirement should be required. A standard ought to be standard across the denomination. San Francisco Presbytery has capitulated to the spirit of the age, ignoring the clear and consistent witness of the Bible, our Presbyterian creeds and constitution, and repeated, overwhelming decisions by the church here, abroad, and across the ages."
Following the 2006 General Assembly decision, several Presbyterian churches have taken steps to withdraw from the national church. The churches have opposed the liberal direction the denomination is going on homosexuality as well as other issues, including the singular lordship of Jesus Christ.
The gay ordination issue is expected to be taken up again at PC(USA)'s biennial General Assembly in June.
The PC(USA) is the largest Presbyterian denomination in the country with 2.3 million members.
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Yes, may Lisa be honest about who she is in light of the Word of God, and come to repentance. May she and others in the same bondage come to know new life in Christ.
"Look at all previous society's with "liberal" sexual values and how they were all conquered or destroyed or judged, or all of the above - excelent examples of this are Pompei, Greece, Roman Empire, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. They all had one thing in common - sexual promiscuity with everything and anything, anytime, and anyhow. When a culture is obsessed with sex, it becomes idolatry."
I have seen this woman Lisa Larges in interviews--and anyone who has also seen her would laugh their heads off at the idea that she is "obsessed with sex"! Wanting to be happy in life is not the same thing as a sexual obsession. I would rather she be honest about who she is than enter into a sham marriage or be celibate not by choice.
maranatha7593
Re: Generational curses are not from God. All are born in sin, but God offers forgiveness, healing, and deliverance.
Hopefully, one day they will experience the forgiveness, healing, and deliverance that only God can provide.
maranatha7593
Re: Generational curses are not from God. All are born in sin, but God offers forgiveness, healing, and deliverance.
Amen.
"Generational curse? If you believe that, then you are conceeding that we are indeed born gay."
Generational curses are not from God. All are born in sin, but God offers forgiveness, healing, and deliverance.
maranatha wrote:
"Unfortunately, this is happening in many denominations - Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, and probably more.
It is simply evidence of an apostate church which has abandoned the Word of God and has substituted its own thoughts for His.
God help Bible-believing Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, and all the rest to stand strong in His Word and not be deluded by deceiving spirits."
maranatha, i could not agree with you more. This is a definite sign of the end times, and the "post modern" Emergent Church and the Ecumenical Movement are only adding fuel to the fire. Some on this post who still think God is OK with homosexuality, or forication, or adultery, or living in any kind of blatant sexual sin outside of the clear context of sexual union set forth in Scripture which is for one man and one woman joined in holy matrimony for life, are being deceived by lying doctrines of demons. If they consider themselves to be born again, ten they better take the Bible seriously, and not try to water it down like many are doing so they can justify their lifestyle choices ad tink God is ok with them. They should read the latter Epistles ad the Book of Jude for an eye opening experience and hopefully one that opens their eyes to the Truth of Christ.
Look at all previous society's with "liberal" sexual values and how they were all conquered or destroyed or judged, or all of the above - excelent examples of this are Pompei, Greece, Roman Empire, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. They all had one thing in common - sexual promiscuity with everything and anything, anytime, and anyhow. When a culture is obsessed with sex, it becomes idolatry.
I must say again the Bible is the absolute truth of God. If everything else in this confused and twisted world doesn't make sense, then that is why we have the Bible. The Bible teaches us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Therefore, the fornicator, the adulterer, the thief, the pedophile, the pornographer, the bisexual, transsexual, homosexual, liar, etc all have sinned. We all need a Savior, and it doesn't matter the sin, all it takes is one sin to be separated from God. This is why we must all come to repentance; whatever the vice is. We all suffer from one common thing, and that is a fallen sinful nature. I have never said that homosexuality is the unforgivable sin; however, I have always said that just like the adulterer, the homosexual needs to acknowledge that his/her desires are contrary to the natural uses God made us humans to be, and come to grips with his/her fleshly desire that is contrary to God, and repent if he/she wants to be born again. You cannot be born again and be openly practicing the homosexual lifestyle, because it would contradict the new life that we have in Christ. Please don't misinterpret me, this is not to mean that a person who has come out of that lifestyle who just gave their life to Christ will not struggle with this sin, but if they are born again, they will willfully acknowledge their temptations, their weaknesses, and their struggles, and go back to God with them, confess them to Him, and ask Him to grant more Grace for them to turn their backs on the sin, and to pick up their crosses daily and follow Christ.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
continued:
1 Kings 14:24
24 There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.
Leviticus 18:22
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
The leviticus passage really leaves no room for interpretation does it?
continued:
A proverbial term of reproach applied to those who practiced sodomy (ritual homosexuality) (Deuteronomy 23:17; 1 Kings 14:24;15:12;22:46; 2 Kings 23:7; Job)
And is applied to males (Deuteronomy 23:17)
Destroyed by fire as a judgement (Genesis 19:24,25)
Wickedness of (Genesis 19:4-14)
The word "harlot" ("shrine prostitute" (N. I. V.)) appears in (Genesis 38:21,22)
And is the translation of a Hebrew feminine form of the word translated elsewhere "sodomite" (Hosea 4:14)
To be judged according to opportunity (Matthew 11:24; Luke 10:12)
See SODOMY"
The Bible nowhere exhorts us to be complacent in our Christianity; nor does it exhort us to accept Christ in a prayer one day, and then just live to please the flesh, and then rationalize like the gnostics did in the first century church - "after all, there is the love and grace of God; He understands, I can sin today, and just ask for foirgiveness tomorrow." This is illogical, and contrary to the Word of God. Some on this site, because of whatever reason have chosen to be more flax on homosexuality, and have gone as far as to say they are not sure it is a sin. Well, biblically speaking it is a sin, and if God says it's sin, who am I to say otherwise? My problem with some on this site is that they try to rationalize (water down) sin, or they misinterpret the Bible to adapt to a personal sin, or someone they love who is dealing with something that is a sin, so what do they do? rather than admitting that the sin is sin, and just confessing it to God as sin, and asking God to remove the "fleshly lust" or watever other sin from their lives, they refuse to acknowledge it as sin, and further, will mock, or antagonize those of us who rather follow the whole counsel of God.
We are commanded to love (NOT TOLERATE) homosexuals, as well as adulterers, fornicators, liars, etc; we are called to love all our enemies, but we are called to hate sin. Therefore, let the truth be told in love, but nevertheless, the truth must be proclaimed- we love the sinner, but cannot condone the sin. we cannot and should not as born again believers water down sin. This is the problem with the modern day church - they water down Scripture to suit the itching ears of those who are listening rather than just teach the Word of God and let the Holy Spirit convict their hearts unto repentance and following Christ out of a pure heart.
Honesty: Sorry, but I'm not deeply wounded in my soul from anything in my past. I was indeed born gay, as I only recall same sex attractions at any age. Generational curse? If you believe that, then you are conceeding that we are indeed born gay.
John, that verse is not dealing with social problems, it doesn't say that God will punish the societies that are not charitable, it says that those (individuals) would be. You need to think about what a social problem is. Jesus did not come to lead a political movement, He came to save individuals and change them. We do not see Jesus ever speak out against Roman government, does this mean Christ approved of them? Certainly not. Try another example or else give up this argument (I suggest the latter, you have already defected from the main argument which is about homosexuality, and are not getting very far in debating about slavery either).
Chris333, all social problems are personal problems and have moral issues at stake, Matthew 25.31-46
"no" below should be "know", sorry
John, "And you want to label that a 'social ill' and not immoral, but allow the poetic verses that God love us all and there is no blemish too great and nothing we do can separate us from the love of God as applying to wicked slave owners but not to homosexuals? "
What is this? I didn't say slavery itself was not immoral, I wanted to say it was a social problem not an individual one. Christ did not address social problems, He addressed personal ones. You took the quote of Christ completely out of context (just like the pharisees) He was talking about our relationship with God and to others, not about slavery, it has nothing to do with slavery, it certainly does not endorse "beating slaves".
Also, what venom is being spewed? Paul spoke about a clearly immoral member of the Church in his day, and said that the other Christians should not associate with him. But you are probably smarter than Paul and no more about the Christian faith, because postmodernism has re-interpreted the Bible and the Gospel, all without the help of God. Also, you ought to be careful of false gospels, which I think you may have bought into. You can't just say, "I believe in Jesus, love and peace" and then expect the Christian community to agree (or at least God for that matter) Jesus Himself said that some would call Him Lord, but He would not recognize them.
I have debated on other threads that God is against slavery and the case can be easily made (especially when you look at the Bible from a NT perspective, which is what a Christian does) On the other hand, unless you rewrite the Bible, then homosexuality is a sin.
Unfortunately, this is happening in many denominations - Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, and probably more.
It is simply evidence of an apostate church which has abandoned the Word of God and has substituted its own thoughts for His.
God help Bible-believing Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, and all the rest to stand strong in His Word and not be deluded by deceiving spirits.
oh, no..
not the Presbyterians... these things only happen to Methodists... We are doomed...
St. J, Our righteousness comes through the grace of God as we have experienced the righteousness of Jesus imputed on our behalf upon our acceptance of Him as Savior and Lord. As Christians we must read God's word and allow it to formulate our understanding and shape our understanding of the world. We must not come to God's word with a preconceived belief or idea and attempt to have it conform to us.
IIf the Bible cannot be trusted as God's word in its entireity then it should not be trusted at all. True Believers accept the Bible in its entirety and attempt to let the Holy Spirit reveal God's truths to us. We then let God's word penetrate our understanding and formulate a worldview that is consistant with God's. We cannot and must not attempt to call "good" that which God has called sin.
I am praying for you my brother
xizwyck, the subject is the interpretation of Scripture, not homosexuality, and you are the one side-stepping the question in regards to consistency and slavery.
The self-righteousness and venom spewed here about other Christians who differ in their understanding of the faith and Scriptures doesn't sound much like Jesus to me
Also, homosexuals are deeply wounded in their souls from things in their past. Some feel they were born gay but it is probably a generational curse and they don't know why they have it. So if we condemn them we harm them more, which is not what Jesus taught.
bigtex,
Well said!
bigtex,
Sometimes it's hard for Christians to keep a right spirit and an upward attitude about this particular subject, however, I believe you've done it. God Bless you for your obvious committment to God's Word and your wonderful Christian spirit.
xizwyck, I see a pattern being developed in this discussion and the discussion on Mike Huckabee's comments about gay marriage. The homosexual community has logged into this Christian website and is attempting help us poor Christians understand that their lifestyle must be accepted. They formulate poorly contrived compairsons to attempt to support their view that homosexuality is normative behavior. They attempt to interpret the word of God so as to make it fit their agenda of convincing dumb Christians to see their point of view. They show themselves to Biblical illiterates and void of the Spirit of God. Let's all remember God's word,"The natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit of God neither can he know them because he is spiritually discerned" 1 Cor.
Let's all remember to pray that Satan's power of blinding these people will be lifted and the God's Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of God's love. Let's remember that those involved in the homosexual lifestyle are suffering from the effects of a rebellious spirit toward God and that they need to experience the forgivness of Jesus Christ.
The church has survived for some 2,000 years and the word of God has stood when all other philosophies and false religions have long singe disappeared.
It never ceases to amaze me that people who do not believe the Bible or the teachings of Jesus should even want to take a leadership role in the Church, Presbyterian or otherwise. Why not start your own church called The First Church of Lesbian and Gays...
"St"Johns:
First of all... the subject is on homosexuality... not slavery.
Second, where in Scripture does it state that the institution of slavery was ever designed by God? - Good luck because you won't find it (including Jesus' lips).
Third, eating a ham and cheese sandwich is NOT an abomination and everything else you listed. Read Acts 10:9-15
Assuming that you are an intelligent person, I have to wonder why you would side-step the discussion, take Scripture out-of-context, and inconsistently interpret Scripture (confusing the Mosaic law with the New Covenant), unless your intent is to deceive others?
“Lesbian Moves Forward in Ordination Amid Debate”
This “moving forward” is not led by the Holy Spirit. Sadly, Lisa Larges (and supporters) have rejected Psalms 119:105: Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Chris, you are absolutely right. Slavery is nothing like homosexuality in the Bible. Homosexuality is mentioned in a couple of debatable passages from Paul and in the Book of Leviticus, slavery is mentioned in every book of the Bible, never with a word spoken against it as an institution or against its abuses. Exodus 21:21 allows you to beat your slave to death with a rod provided he survives a day or two first, and Jesus tells the Parable of the Watchful Slave who beats his fellow slaves and then in turn is beaten by the Master when he comes home (Lk. 12.47). And you want to label that a 'social ill' and not immoral, but allow the poetic verses that God love us all and there is no blemish too great and nothing we do can separate us from the love of God as applying to wicked slave owners but not to homosexuals?
John, please, you have to be joking. Where did Jesus support slavery? Slavery is nothing like homosexuality in the Bible. Homosexuality is a personal problem that separates us from God, slavery is a societal "ill". Besides that, there are many verses that speak about how in God's eyes there is no slave or master, that all are equal. But you never see the Bible say that in God's eyes there are no homosexuals or heterosexuals. Rather it says homosexuality is an abomination. Also the Bible is quite clear for Christians, that eating certain foods is no longer required. You need to read a Bible and see what it actually says. There is absolutely no case for homosexuals that involves an honest interpretation of the Bible.
The spirit of Lisa Larges will be on that Church for she is its authority. Her congregation will become as ungodly as she is, self-serving, and in rebellion against God. They will be as much of a child of the devil as she is.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminates, nor abuser of themselves with mankind, Nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor 6:9-10)
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God." (Heb 12:14)
"And being made perfect, he (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Heb 5:9)
Lisa Larges is living ungodly and refuses to obey what God has written in His Holy Scriptures. If she doesn't repent, she will perish.
How can she tell someone how to have eternal life when her own in on the verge of eternal damnation if she doesn't repent?
Pastors are to be an example to their flock in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, and in purity. (1 Tim 4:12)
How can Lisa Larges fulfil the command of 1 Tim 4:12 when she is living ungodly and in rebellion against God?
How can she tell someone how to have eternal life when her own in on the verge of eternal damnation if she doesn't repent?
xizwyck, nothing is more blatantly supported in the Scriptures than the institution of slavery, even on Jesus' lips, so are those of us who oppose slavery 'blatantly disregarding Scripture'? Many of those who supported slavery thought the abolitionists were. Meanwhile, note that eating a ham and cheese sandwich is also an abomination or wearing a cotton/polyester blend shirt or eating shrimp or a woman cutting her hair!
I just can't understand how people can blatantly disregard Scripture or interpret to fit their own means... homosexuality is nowhere approved in the Bible... in fact, it is condemned as an abomination.
I have been in ministry for 20 years. I have been under the impression that ministerial servanthood, in fact Biblical servanthood, meant putting others needs and desires above one's self. It means putting the needs of the congregation above what I want. If this is the case, Lisa Larges has failed miserably. The church is not about her and her sexuality and she should not do anything as a minister of the church to bring division. Jesus spoke against division ("a house divided cannot stand").
The Bible is clear that the pastor or minister is to shephard the flock not scatter it. The early church was "of one heart and one mind." If as a minister our actions cause a disturbance and division within the flock because of our personal agenda or activities, we need to ask ourselves, "is this of God?"
I don't believe for a moment God would call anyone into the church to cause trouble and division so it must be of Satan. Those inside the church leadership need to answer to the authority of Scripture. They need to consider what is best for the church. They need to stop pandering to the agenda driven, selfish, attitude of Lisa Larges and do what is good by the Lord Jesus and His bride, the church.