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Ministries|Mon, Jan. 21 2008 09:27 AM EST

Exclusivity of Christ Still Controversial Today

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

The exclusive claims of Christ are just as controversial today as they were 2,000 years ago, says one national youth leader.

Jesus as "the way and the truth and the life," or the only way to salvation, is hard to swallow in a postmodern culture where "more and more people seem to think that Jesus is one of many ways to God and that salvation is achieved through living a good life rather than received through faith alone in Christ alone," said Greg Stier, founder of Dare 2 Share Ministries, which has equipped millions of youths to share the Gospel.

It's a belief held by many Christians today who do not have a firm grasp of what they believe, many Christian leaders say. Most people view the Gospel as a message that proclaims "all roads lead to God as long as you're sincere," Stier noted in an e-mail interview with The Christian Post.

"Most of them know that Jesus died on the cross but also believe that God will accept you if you are sincere and seek to do good deeds," he said.

It's one of Stier's short list of reasons why the world isn't reached for Christ yet. He says the Gospel that is being preached tends to be anything but.

"The word Gospel means 'good news.' It's the good news that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone and not by good works," Stier stressed. "But many who preach the 'Gospel' today are adding all sorts of pre-conditions."

Some of those pre-conditions include keeping the law or some of the Ten Commandments, getting baptized, or some kind of "to do" list.

"Many seem hell bent on twisting the pathway to heaven to include some kind of turning, committing or you-fill-in-the-blank human effort," Stier noted.

The prominent youth speaker recently finished filming in Maui the second edition of a reality series called "GOSPEL Journey." It's a series that explores how relevant the Gospel still is today and if people are receptive to it and it further equips youths to answer questions posed by non-Christians they encounter.

Participants of the latest "GOSPEL Journey" included a Jew, Muslim, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, Buddhist and a girl who believed that God was a big black woman cooking cookies in the heavenly kitchen of unconditional love.

And to many of them, the exclusivity of salvation in Christ was unreasonable.

"The toughest off camera question asked to me was by Jonathan (our bodybuilding, modeling Jewish participant)," Stier said after filming the reality series. "It went something like, 'So Greg you mean to tell me that all six million Jews who died in the Holocaust woke up in the flames of hell because they rejected Jesus as their Messiah?'"

Ultimately, Stier hoped the Gospel message would be crystal clear to them by the end of the weeklong journey whether they accepted it or not.

"My hope is that they all understand that, accept it or reject it, Jesus claimed to be the exclusive way to God," he said.

Despite living in a culture that embraces tolerance, Stier calls Christians to keep the Gospel message crystal clear. Otherwise, lives will not be changed.

"Any gospel that puts the focus on what we must do rather than on what Christ has done has lost the offense of the cross and, therefore, is powerless to truly transform lives," he stressed. "If we really want to see the world reached with the Gospel then we must preach the real, unadulterated gospel."

Other reasons Stier listed for why the world is not yet reached for Christ include the church spending a disproportionate amount of money on buildings, staffing and internal programs; the church not focusing on reaching the most spiritually receptive demographics such as those under the age of 18 and the poor; and Christians not taking the responsibility to share the Gospel and leaving evangelism up to the pastor or to Billy Graham.

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  • Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Just a few questions for the evolutioners': Since the earth is so old; where did the instrument used for carbon dating come from? Next: from where did the sample come from that is used to calibrate this instrument? How was it determined that this sample was actually that old? Also, who is qualified to make adjustments to this instrument? If the answer to any of these questions is either: A) aliens or B) man, then I have to wonder if the man made instrument was made in the USA or China? Quality is of great concern here.

  • Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    See that I mean? (they did it again)

    To Slacker:

    The flagging is because BobCu is all torqued off about me and couple other folks flagging his abusive language, name-calling and intentionally offensive language on another topic. Now he's running around all of the pages deleting our comments wherever he finds them.
    Unfortunately, I don't see any way of reporting abuse of the system by a particular user, so alot of really good conversations are being destroyed because you can't see the question or response.
    He and his buddy Agent Orange were posting on the "Why Darwinism is So Dangerous" article and continued posting the same long list of pro-evolution off-site URL's over and over again. Pretty annoying stuff for those of us who were actually trying to have a conversation.
    Again, no way to report abusive users. :(

  • Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:15 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    1 Corinthians 1:18-25 (New King James Version)
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.



    Christ the Power and Wisdom of God

    18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:


    “ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
    And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”[a]

    20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[b] foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

    Footnotes:

    1 Corinthians 1:19 Isaiah 29:14
    1 Corinthians 1:23 NU-Text reads Gentiles.

  • Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:02 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I agree with DavidJ on the one matter. Educate yourself before you make false claims. We *do* understand science and are *not* 'flat-earthers' or anything like that. People should stop equating a belief in a young earth with being anti-science or ignorant or stupid. It's the same science old-earthers use, the evidence is just interpreted differently and the conclusions are different. I assure that many Christians, no matter whether they believe in a young earth or old, are extremely intelligent and well educated, and completely embrace science. But that does not mean that we can't have faith, and that supernatural things can't be real at the same time.

  • Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Whats with the flagging all over the place,

  • NOTW »
    Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:01 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes..." "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them...but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools...therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts...God gave them up to dishonorable passions...God gave them up to a debased mind...because they exchanged the truth for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen." Romans 1

  • NOTW »
    Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "We (evolutionists) have been telling our students for years not to accept any statement on its face value but to examine the evidence, and, therefore, it is rather a shock to discover that we have failed to follow our own sound advice." John T, Bonner "We Paleontologists have said that the history of life supports (the story of gradual adaptive change), all the while really knowing that it does not." Miles Eldredge, pro-evolution "...the philosophy of evolution is based upon assumptions that cannot be scientifically verified...whatever evidence can be assembled for evolution is both limited and circumstantial in nature." G.A. Kerkut, pro-evolution "It is, in fact, a common fantasy, promulgated mostly by the scientific profession itself, that in the search for objective truth, data dictate conclusions." "Data are just as often molded to fit preferred conclusions." Roger Lewin, pro-evolutionist "We do not see things the way they are; we see them the way we are." David Pilbeam, pro-evolution "The more one studies paleontology, the more certain one becomes that evolution is based on faith alone." T.L. Moor, pro-evolution

  • NOTW »
    Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:39 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation which is unthinkable." Arthur Keith "The incessant repetition of this unproved claim glossing lightly over the difficulties, and the assumption of an arrogant attitude toward those who are not easily swayed by fashions of science, are considered to afford scientific proof of the doctrine." Richard Goldschmidt, geneticist."Why not consider the possibility that life is what it so evidently seems to be, the product of creative intelligence? Science would not come to an end, because the task would remain of deciphering the languages in which genetic information is communicated, and in general finding out how the whole system works. What scientists would lose is not an inspiring research program, but the illusion of total mastery of nature. They would have to face the possibility that beyond the natural world there is a further reality which transcends science."

  • 3rd »
    Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    POST 2 of attempt to answer:
    The New Testament teaches us that the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ, came to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) precisely at the time preceding the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. “But when Messiah arrived as a High Priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more complete Tabernacle, not made with hands, that is, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered into the Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been made common, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Messiah, Who through the eternal Spirit, offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the Living God?” (Hebrews 9:11-14).
    The New Testament teaches that all of us, Jews and gentiles, have “missed the mark.” (Romans 3:23) All of us are under the consequences of sin, and “the wages of sin is death.” (Romans 6:23) We are all in need of salvation from our sin; we are all in need of a Savior. The New Testament teaches that Jesus the Messiah is “the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father”, but through Him. (John 14:6) And most importantly, “there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which it is necessary for us to be saved." (Acts 4:12).
    For the Jews, Jesus the Messiah has come as High Priest, and through His once-for-all sacrifice for sin offers complete atonement to all people. For there is “no distinction” between Jew and gentile. (Romans 10:12) Yes, the Jews are God’s chosen people, and through them come the Jewish Messiah to bless all the nations of the earth. And it is only through Jesus that Jews can find God’s complete atonement and forgiveness.

    Lastly, I do admit, BobCu, that I do know and understand where you are coming from and have read your replies carefully. You see, I was similar to yourself...in fact, I could see my old self in your replies. Blessing to you, BobCu...I do hope that you'll find the answers you are looking for...please don't stop asking...

  • 3rd »
    Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    BobCu, This main question is a great question by the way and I have to say these posts are good posts and one can a learn a lot by reading these comments.
    POST 1 of attempt to answer (there's a lot you probably know and have heard already but I included to be complete):
    The last Book of the Torah teaches that the Jews are God’s chosen people. (Deuteronomy 7:6-8).
    Jews were “chosen for special service and worship, and to enjoy special privileges and benefits, civil and religious; though they were not chosen to special grace…or eternal glory.” The Jews were chosen to be a blessing to all the nations of the earth (Genesis 12). The Jews were chosen to be a light to the gentiles. So then, are all Jews “saved” just because they are Jews?
    According to many modern rabbinical scholars the Christian concept of salvation from sin has no equal in Judaism. Judaism does not believe that man, by his nature, is evil or sinful and therefore has no need to be “saved” from an eternal damnation. In fact, most Jews today do not believe in a place of eternal punishment or a literal hell. The Hebrew root word for “sin” is chayt, which literally means to “miss the mark.” It is a term commonly used in archery, of one who “misses the mark” of the bulls eye. When a Jew misses the mark, and occasionally falls into the sin of failing to fulfill the laws of God, the belief is that one can obtain forgiveness through prayer, repentance and doing good deeds.
    The Book of Leviticus (17:11), the third Book of the Torah, clearly gives the prescription for forgiveness. “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.” The Temple sacrifice was always the centerpiece for Jewish atonement. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), the Levitical High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies in the Temple and sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the Mercy Seat. Through this yearly act, atonement was made for the sins of all Israel, but the Holy Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, and for almost 2000 years Jews have been without a Temple, a sacrifice, and a means of atonement.
    (to be continued in POST 2)

  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:29 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    John 14:6

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    If Jesus is rejected as the Only Savior of The World then that person is choosing their final destination. Hell was created for Satan and his demons; but a person can choose to go their by not believing God.
    Man has rejected and rebelled against God; look at the condition of our world, we are living in the days of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah and you think a Holy God should continue to let this go on! I say come to Jesus and repent and be saved!
    The wages of sin is still death. The CROSS is offensive and man thinks he can save himself, but we have not even come close to ever saving ourselves!

    God is saying still: "choose life or choose death"

  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:24 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "Evolutionists are using forensic science, which is not true science." said the anti-science flat-earther who doesn't know what he's talking about. Educate yourself, then get back to me. Thanks.

  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Bob, one of my scientific and spiritual mentors is Dr. Kurt Wise, who studied under Dr. Stephen J. Gould at Harvard. You can stick your head in the sand and believe that Christians do not understand science, but your comments prove that you do not. Evolutionists are using forensic science, which is not true science. They piece together various pieces of data and try to make a picture that seems reasonable. Unfortunately, the picture they make adheres more closely to their materialistic worldview than it does the truth. They have not and cannot duplicate evolution in a controlled setting and submit the findings to peers, which is true science. If anything, materialistic scientists should be called creationists because they're creating myths out of thin air. Ad hoc arguments do not become you.

    I made no false claims about science. If you aren't familiar with controlled environments, peer reviews, and double-blind studies, try reading a book about science. Again, ad hoc argument.

    FYI, your last statement is absolutely unbelievable. "That's a good reason to conclude there is not any non-material world. The non-material world you believe in is just a man-made fantasy."

    So, using my analogy, if I don't have a thermometer to measure the temperature, there isn't any? You've just shown that you have no desire to hold a rational discussion. You are not addressing my points, just throwing out blanket ad hoc statements. Speaking of addressing points...I noticed you never answered my question: What makes you think you were ever a Christian in the first place?

  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    Quecat: "If their findings do not line up with their expectations or uphold their current opinions, the data is tossed out as anomalous."

    Really? Let's have some examples.

    maranatha7593, brainwash your children with any religious nonsense you want. Just keep your fantasies out of our science classes. In return we won't think in your church.

  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:36 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    BobCu: "Both the Christian and the Muslims, and also some religious Jews, have the same problem. They know nothing about science, but they try to influence science education anyway."

    There are Bible-believing Christians who are not ignorant of science at all, but have PhD's in various scientific fields. To attempt to demean their intelligence in such a condescending way shows a complete lack of objectivity.

    Do you really think that posting anti-Christian comments here will discourage Christians from believing in the Lord, from trusting Him, from continuing to follow Him? Do you really think that your contemptuous statements will discourage us from teaching our children to believe in the Creator of true science? If that is your objective, it won't work. Greater is He who is in us than he who is in the world.

  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:37 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    POST 1 CONCLUSION
    Nobody here answered the question "So Greg you mean to tell me that all six million Jews who died in the Holocaust woke up in the flames of hell because they rejected Jesus as their Messiah?"
    I will answer this question. Those who cried out to Yeshua were saved, those who did not are in eternal torment.

    “There's more than 4 billion non-Christians alive today who think Jesus was full of you know what, and every single one of them, according to Jesus, is going to hell, no matter how good their lives were, all because they were brainwashed to believe in the wrong god. They never had a chance, and they all face eternal torture, according to Jesus.”

    This statement by you is accurate to a point, change “brainwashed to believe in the wrong god” to "Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand." Taken from Luke 8:9 & 10. God does as HE wills, not as man expects him to will.

  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:36 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    POST 1
    BobCu
    “why should a person say he has "beliefs" when he's really just accepting proven scientific facts.”
    BELIEF: Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something
    ACCEPTANCE: the mental attitude that something is believable and should be accepted as true
    FACTS: --something that actually exists; reality; truth
    --something known to exist or to have happened
    --something said to be true or supposed to have happened
    Bob, whether you ever accept Yeshua and his teachings has no consequence to me, only to you. The Word states that: Matthew 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” If there is a section of this world that has not had a witness (to see, hear, or know by personal presence and perception) of Yeshua I am not aware of it, although it is possible. By the definitions above whether you agree or not, you do believe in something. You may reject the word belief, but without belief in something you can have no acceptance. You accept your employer will pay you each week. If that employer tells you he will give you a pay increase you believe him. If you play golf and your buddy says he will meet you at the country club at 4 in the afternoon, you believe him. Belief and acceptance of words, reality or eternity are individual options afforded us by our maker. If my beliefs and acceptance in God, Jesus and his Word are in the wrong place then I will submit to you the life I live is without chaos due to the rest I receive from knowing I don’t need or have to figure out how the world works. I do strive to keep focused on the day presented me and let tomorrow remain in His hands. With what I am stating here I do not have any intentions or hope to change your mind, that is not my place. The Word teaches and instructs me to follow Yeshua. In choosing to walk this path I learn to be a better: man, husband, dad, citizen, neighbor, steward…you get the picture. The major plus? IF God and his Word are a lie, I am a better human. The fact that I believe and accept their truth adds to that, hope in promised eternal life with the one who redeemed me from certain death.

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    davidj, scientists know new animals developed from other animals, or what creationists call macro-evolution, because massive DNA evidence proves it. The same method used for paternity testing in humans is used to determine evolutionary relationships. If you don't understand this, it doesn't matter. Scientists ignore the anti-science creationists because the creationists don't know what they're talking about.

    If you don't understand evolution, and I can tell from your comments you know nothing about it, I suggest you educate yourself about biology. That's what I have been doing and will continue to do for the rest of my life. If you don't want to do the hard work of learning how the world works, please don't complain to me about evolution. I have no time for the willfully ignorant.

    What's interesting to me, and your comments are a good example, is the same people who blindly trust the Bible, also make false claims about science, and often try to harm science education. Both the Christian and the Muslims, and also some religious Jews, have the same problem. They know nothing about science, but they try to influence science education anyway. It's like somebody who can't add two numbers together claiming they are qualified to decide what is taught in an algebra class.

    You said "You cannot use that which is designed to reveal facts of the material world to reveal anything about the non-material world."

    That's a good reason to conclude there is not any non-material world. The non-material world you believe in is just a man-made fantasy.

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:08 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "People should question everything and trust nobody. That's how science works. Whenever a scientific discovery is made, other scientists immediately try to disprove it, and they don't give up trying to disprove it until it's obviously a fact. Only then, after numerous tests, and when many scientists get the same results again and again, is an idea accepted as fact. Even then, if new evidence becomes available that disproves an accepted fact, that fact is immediately thrown out. That's called progress. That's how science works and that's how religion should work."

    Then why do so many scientists believe in macro-evolution, which has yet to replicated in a controlled environment and be subjected to any peer-reviewed, double-blind studies?

    "Nobody should trust any book or any person. Especially anything as improbable as a supernatural event should never be trusted unless the evidence for it is overwhelming and powerful."

    Can I rightly assume that the "evidence" to which you refer must stand up to scientific investigation, which by definition disregards the supernatural? That's like saying it isn't cold out today, because my yardstick doesn't show that it's cold. You cannot use that which is designed to reveal facts of the material world to reveal anything about the non-material world.

    The non-material can only be revealed using non-material resources. That's why the Holy Spirit confirms with my spirit that God is real. So Bob, what makes you think you were ever a Christian? I'm also curious why you insist upon using science as the tool by which everything is shown to exist or not exist when science cannot reveal so much of what we know to be true such as love, hope, morality, values, etc.?

    " Wishing it was true does not make it true." (See comment regarding scientists and evolution.)

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:56 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Quecat and maranatha7593,

    I'm not here because I'm a "genuine seeker" whatever that is. Like I said before, my atheism grows stronger every year, and every time I see a Bible quote I thank goodness I could never take that strange book seriously.

    I'm not here to get "kicks out of defaming Christians and their beliefs".

    I'm interested in Christianity because I used to be a Christian, and because I live in a country that has more than 200 million Christians in it. I notice many of those Christians are trying to influence what is taught in public school science classes, even though they are not scientists. I also notice they make false claims about science to their children, and to me that's making our country worse, not better.

    It's very difficult for me to understand why people would accept one book of countless strange stories as a bunch of proven facts when the book was written by ancient people who couldn't possibly have the scientific knowledge we have today. It's an interesting challenge to me to explain common sense to people who I don't think have too much common sense.

    The topic of this thread is especially interesting to me. The concept of hell is obviously a man-made invention. Heaven is obviously nothing more than wishful thinking. Yet millions believe this stuff anyway, despite the complete lack of evidence for it. Since I'm on their list of more than 4 billion people they think God is going to torture, I am of course interested in this. How can any person think a god who they call a loving god could do this? It just defies all common sense that a person who lives a good life would be tortured only because he had the ability to think for himself instead of blindly believing everything in an ancient book.

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    BobCu, I realize that's your opinion, and I hope you realize it is just opinion. You seem to be stating that as fact.

    For a numbef of years now, God's Word has resonated in my spirit. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would indwell the hearts of His people and would be our teacher, the One who would lead us into all truth and wisdom, and that is what I've experienced in my life. When I am in the presence of another Christian who is also indwelt by the Holy Spirit, I can sense that bond, that rapport. I'm not asking or expecting you to believe this and/or agree, I'm just stating my experience to you - and not only mine, but that of many, many other people.

    Note, I haven't condemned you or anyone else to Hell. For one thing, you are still living and breathing; there is still time for you to choose Heaven. For another thing, I leave all judgment to God. He and He alone is the Righteous Judge.

    With all due respect, I don't quite understand what you get out of coming to a Christian website where you know you will read articles and comments which are abhorrent to you. I'm not suggesting that you not do it; I just don't comprehend what you get out of it.

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    novel: "A fictional prose narrative of considerable length, typically having a plot that is unfolded by the actions, speech, and thoughts of the characters."

    Do the people who quote from the Bible as if they were talking about proven facts ever consider the possibility they are quoting from a novel? A book of made up stories. Fiction.

    Many novels have facts in them, but they are still mostly a made up story.

    The Koran is also a novel, a book that has facts in it but it's mostly fiction.

    Why should anyone, who wasn't born into a country that has mostly Christians, believe the Bible is any more reliable than the Koran?

    Like any novel, the Bible was written to sound true. It was rewritten and translated countless times over several centuries to make it sound more true, but it's still filled with errors. It conflicts with itself countless times. Perhaps these errors can be explained, but why shouldn't anyone not think it's mostly fiction? The idea the Bible is the word of God could never be proven, and I can't imagine anything more improbable. The Master of trillions and trillions of stars helping some human apes write a book? Come on, be serious people. You are not the big deal you think you are. Some god is not going to be writing a book just for you. The idea a book on this insignificant planet was inspired by God is obviously just wishful thinking.

    People should question everything and trust nobody. That's how science works. Whenever a scientific discovery is made, other scientists immediately try to disprove it, and they don't give up trying to disprove it until it's obviously a fact. Only then, after numerous tests, and when many scientists get the same results again and again, is an idea accepted as fact. Even then, if new evidence becomes available that disproves an accepted fact, that fact is immediately thrown out. That's called progress. That's how science works and that's how religion should work. Nobody should trust any book or any person. Especially anything as improbable as a supernatural event should never be trusted unless the evidence for it is overwhelming and powerful. Wishing it was true does not make it true.

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:21 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    (continued)
    Christ was sent to atone for sin, to live the perfect life no human being could live. He was the Messiah, the Anointed One, the Son of Man (Daniel 7:13-14), and his death was substitution for us and atonement for our transgressions as said by the prophecy of Isaiah 53:5

    "But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
    the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.

    6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to his own way;
    and the LORD has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all. "

    No one is made worthy of salvation in God's sight simply because of great suffering here on earth whether it be the horrors of a Nazi death camp or the slow, wasting away in a hospital from some terrible disease. Our suffering does not somehow wipe out the stain of sin, only Christ (by God's grace, through faith in Christ) can wipe the sin from us. That is a very, very offensive concept to "the World" - and it always has been. It's been what has separated Christians from "the World" from the very beginning - the exclusivity of Christ. Paul said the message of the cross was foolishness to those who are perishing, and that the cross was an offense. It has always been offensive to the World, it confounds the wisdom of the wise. Here are Jesus words, from the Gospel of John, and this is something Christians believe and have held from the beginning:

    John 14: 6 "Jesus said to him, "I am(A) the way, and(B) the truth, and(C) the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

    You may not understand it, you may not believe it, but Christians believe it and I've explained it as best I can in my own, poor, humble, way. I hope I made it clear.

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:20 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Here's the simplest way I can explain this entire situation from my Christian perspective:

    Many are also forgetting what the Prophet Joel said,

    Joel 2:32 "And everyone who calls
    on the name of the LORD will be saved".

    We cannot know the fate of anyone who was in the Holocaust as to their eternal salvation. I believe the Roman Catholic Church allows for the fact that in His mercy God can save anyone he desires if he should so choose (I think they at least allow for the possibility, or something if I remember what I've heard about their Catechism correctly).

    However, Christians can only go on what they've been told by their scriptures, which we take as the words of Christ as delivered to his apostles. That is, that he is the only way to the Father and that without him, no one comes to the Father or receives eternal salvation.

    The hardest thing for any non-Christian to get their head around is that *God's idea* of "good" or "worthy" or "justice" or "evil" is not *our idea* of those same things. God is a holy and good being. He is not just a God of love and compassion he is also a God of *justice*. People often leave that aside, or conveniently try to forget it because it makes them uncomfortable. But God's justice is not human justice.

    Psalm 14:3 (also quoted by Paul in Romans 3:12):
    "All have turned aside,
    they have together become corrupt;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one."

    God does not see anyone as "good" because all have sinned. Because of our sin, none of us are worthy of salvation, no matter *what* we have been through on earth, good, bad, horrific, or otherwise. Were there righteous Jews who had kept the Law in those camps? Maybe. I don't know. But according to God's Law, anyone who has sinned is not worthy to come into his holy presence, is unclean (without some atonement, the Jews used to sacrifice in their Temple for the forgiveness of sin until Christ came along - then the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.) - and all of our good works amount to nothing in his sight as far as justification:

    Isaiah 64:6 "All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
    we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

    (continued in next post)

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:26 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    BobCu – What maranatha7593 has been trying to say is that it all comes down to the person of Christ. Either He was God and therefore spoke the truth about matters of Heaven, Hell, and eternity, or He was not and therefore His is just another opinion in the world of competing truth claims, which may be right or not, but we can’t know for certain. However, the last time I looked, Jesus is the only one to go into the grave, come back out, and stay that way, so if I’m going to choose one voice to listen to over all the others, I’ll pick His. If anyone can point me to His grave and body, I’ll change my stance.

    On the matter of the Holocaust – how do you know that many in the camps didn’t cry out to God before they were murdered? As C. S. Lewis said, God shouts to us in our pain to get our attention.

    Next, God doesn’t torture or send anyone to Hell. The door of Hell is locked from the inside with the residents having chosen their separation from God, which He sadly grants.

    In addition, you may not think it’s right, but it’s kind of like saying “I refuse to believe that anyone who knowingly or unknowingly steps off a roof will fall to their death.” or “I reject the concept that people who put guns to their heads and pull the trigger will die.” The fact is there are consequences for bad choices made in this life and natural laws that govern outcomes, so why reason the same doesn’t apply in the next life and with spiritual laws? Eternity is a long time to be wrong, BobCu, especially when you have been given the truth but choose to disregard it. Don’t misunderstand me – this is no veiled threat, just reality.

    Finally, of course there are competing truth claims out there. Read through the Koran and you’ll see Mohammad’s progression from calling Christians friends to calling for their death when his message was rejected by them and the culture at that time. No great mystery there.

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:56 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

    maranatha7593. OK. Thanks. The holocaust Jews went to hell and I'm going to hell according to Jesus. The good news is hell is full of scientists, and also all my friends are going there.

    I was just thinking about those millions of Jews who were murdered because they weren't Christians. Then they go to hell because they're not Christians. Doesn't seem fair, does it?

    My favorite Christian joke: "You must accept God or else God will torture you in hell for eternity. God loves you!"

    There's more than 4 billion non-Christians alive today who think Jesus was full of you know what, and every single one of them, according to Jesus, is going to hell, no matter how good their lives were, all because they were brainwashed to believe in the wrong god. They never had a chance, and they all face eternal torture, according to Jesus.

    Isn't it interesting that the Muslims think all Christians are going to hell. It's no wonder there have been religious wars going on for centuries.

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:25 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    BobCu, it's not what I think or you think or anyone else thinks that matters on this issue. We do not determine anyone's eternal destiny.

    Jesus said, to Jews, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, but by me."

    Now - I didn't say that, I'm reporting that to you. I know you've already rejected it, but since you've asked for a clear answer, I must give you the only authoritative answer for a Christian (and the multitude of Messianic Jews as well).

  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    maranatha7593, When I said "Not that I care what your answer is" I meant I'm not going to worry about my Jewish friends going to hell because you think they're going there. Of course I'm convinced hell is a myth. But I am very interested in your answer, and other people's answer to this question. This is an extremely interesting subject. I share a nation with millions of Christians. Of course I want to understand my fellow citizens and what they believe. The question is very interesting and I would never have thought of asking it but I saw the question in the above article.

    Here's the question again and perhaps you or somebody else could answer it. Say all you want about it, but I would appreciate a yes or no answer. Do they go to hell or not?

    "So Greg you mean to tell me that all six million Jews who died in the Holocaust woke up in the flames of hell because they rejected Jesus as their Messiah?"

    This is by far the most interesting question I have ever seen. I wish I could ask every Christian in America this question. I wish I could get at least one answer. So far nobody has said yes or no. I will wait patiently. Thanks very much.

    I also have one more question. I threw Christianity and God in the garbage 42 years ago. My atheism has grown stronger every year and there is zero chance I will change my mind about it. Will I, according to your beliefs, go to hell? Yes or no? Thanks. I'm not worried about hell because I could never believe in anything that crazy and disgusting. I am a bit worried about the mental health of people who think I'm going there.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    maranatha7593, I'm very interested in this subject. I think some Christians believe Jews, who were murdered in the Holocaust and who didn't accept Jesus, went to hell. I think millions of Christians believe this. I'm trying to find out if I'm right. I may never find out, because I don't think anyone wants to admit it. I noticed nobody has denied it. Perhaps Christians are ashamed of this belief. I don't know. That's what I'm trying to find out. I'm here to learn.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    BobCu, since you've already said you don't care what my answer is, and you don't believe in Heaven or Hell anyway, why on earth are you posting any comments at all?

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:03 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    BobCu: "So Greg you mean to tell me that all six million Jews who died in the Holocaust woke up in the flames of hell because they rejected Jesus as their Messiah?"

    Actually, we know that there were Jews, both before and in the concentration camps, who heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and believed on Him as their Messiah. Corrie Ten Boom and her family were not the only Christians who took them in and helped them, and who paid the ultimate price for that by being sent to concentration camps themselves. Only the Lord Himself knows how many of those Jews turned to Him during that time of such extremity. And the Holocaust itself is no reason to reject Jesus as Christ. We know that Hitler and his minions were not motivated by anything which was of God, and that they persecuted Christians, confiscated and burned Bibles as well. Any Christian pastor who stood up to the Nazis paid a dear price.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I feel very lucky to be a Christian. (John 3:17) Bible said I was condemned. Not that Jesus condemned me but we were already condemned. Jesus came to bring us into the light. We were already in the dark.

    So I am lucky to find the light purely by the grace of God. Do I have answer for holocaust? No. I am not that smart. I read bible and it tells me I am saved by the pure grace of God, not by my doing. So I feel very lucky. Gospel is to let you know, I got lucky and I hope you get lucky, too. Don't make me answer the holocaust issue. I don't have a clue but bible said I need to share my good news. So here. I got lucky and accepted Jesus as my Lord and personal savior and I hope you do, too. All other answers to life, you can find out from the bible because I really don't know either. But I really hope you don't get answers from other teachers or anyone from on this board. Jesus is my only teacher and he is in the bible.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    BobCu: Everyone quotes Jesus and claims to be a Christian. I know you read Bible. That's good.

    My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

    -Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mikeymike: there is no artist but the laws of the universe. There is no "spirit" that will leave the body, because everything we are is a property of the physical body. When it does, we die, and our atoms return to the universe they came from, the universe they've been a part of since the very beginning of time.

    Chris333: You seriously have no idea what you are talking about, if that's what you think panthism is.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    FullGospel,

    "It's the good news that salvation is by faith alone..." (see James 2:24 for a different view on that)

    Care to elaborate?

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "gave his life for yours"

    Is there any nonsense you don't believe?

    I'm still waiting for somebody to answer this question:

    "So Greg you mean to tell me that all six million Jews who died in the Holocaust woke up in the flames of hell because they rejected Jesus as their Messiah?"

    I can't imagine anything more disgusting. Anyone believe this?

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "only the consequences there of"

    Is that a threat?

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "there is evidence"

    Let's see it. I need a photograph.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Jesus still loves you"

    No, Jesus is dead.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Citizen, pantheism is just like religious pluralism, which is just like moral relativitity, it just isn't logical. But it does make you feel good.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Bob, you must define immoral, you cannot just call someone immoral because you don't like them, or you think they are silly. You need a real definition and a reason for that definition. If you use subjective reasoning, then you are a relativist, and if you are a relativist, then I will only answer, "I feel differently" and your point will be devastated (but I think you are smarter than to admit relativism).

    Also, there is evidence, you refuse to believe it because of your circular reasoning. (The evidence for God cannot be real, because God isn't real).

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    bobcu and citizen- even though you reject him, Jesus still loves you and gave his life for yours, and this beautiful created order of our universe is for our enjoyment, and the artist behind this created order gave you the power of reason and the free choice of belief or unbelief, but when the day comes that your spirit leaves your body, there are no choices left to make, only the consequences there of. i pray that you sincerely seek the truth with your hearts not your finite minds.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Bobcu: I like it because its the largest term, if you get what I mean. Atheist says what I don't believe, Humanist includes metaphysics and ethics, but only pantheist properly captures the reverence and awe I believe is due to the natural universe. The whole belief/accept thing, I can see being very important to you, but for myself, it seems like a minor point of semantics. I don't have a problem with you insisting on the point, but for me, not so much.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:04 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what was "threatening, abusive, spam, offensive, illegal, racist, defamatory, obscene, vulgar, pornographic, profane, indecent, or libelous" about my post at Jan 21, 2008 12:12 p.m. (The list includes every offense I could find on the Christian Post web site).

    My post supported the Biblical, Christian doctrine that Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby man may be saved, and it offered a marvelous solution to the difficult question posed by the Jewish participant: that some Christian religions teach that the Jewish victims of the Holocaust will go to hell.

    I respectfully invite the person who flagged my post, as well as the editors who enforced the flag, to clarify my "offense."

    Assuming that this response survives flagging, I also invite the reader to look for the offense himself in my comments, which I have posted to my own web site at http://hthalljr.googlepages.com/flagged.html.

    Tracy Hall Jr
    hthalljr'gmail'com

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    "Jesus calls us to repentance for forgiveness of sins, for salvation."

    What sins? Most people live a good life and are just trying to survive. It's a myth that everyone has sins.

    Also, the word "sin", which means "Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God", is a worthless word because there's no evidence for any god.

    This salvation business is nonsense. Salvation means being saved from something. The Christians believe they are being saved from hell because they believe in jesus. The problem is hell is a myth, and jesus is a myth. If there was a person named jesus, he's dead now and he can't possibly do anyone any good.

    Nobody here answered the question "So Greg you mean to tell me that all six million Jews who died in the Holocaust woke up in the flames of hell because they rejected Jesus as their Messiah?"

    The people who believe jews and muslims and atheists go to hell, just because they don't believe the jesus myth, are the most disgusting and the most evil people in the world. Christians think they have a monopoly on moral values, but it's obvious they have no moral values at all.

    Reality is a wonderful thing, but Christians are terrified of reality. They are too cowardly to accept the fact they are nothing after they die.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "It's the good news that salvation is by faith alone..." (see James 2:24 for a different view on that) "But many who preach the 'Gospel' today are adding all sorts of pre-conditions: getting baptized..."

    I guess the many would be Jesus and St. Paul, who said that God wanted us to be baptized (John 3:5; He saved us by the bath of rebirth (Titus 3:5); baptism now saves you (1 Peter 3:21)

    Not trying to start a flame war here, just saying that Bible I read disagrees with someone who remains my brother in Christ, even if we don't agree 100%.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:13 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    "Exclusivity of Christ Still Controversial Today"

    Though the exclusivity of Christ as the only way to salvation is controversial; it is also the TRUTH!

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me – John 14:6.

    For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ – 1Corinthians 3:11.

    Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved – Acts 4:12.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hello Citizen. I'm an atheist and I suppose a pantheist is an atheist, but why invent new words like pantheism? Also, why should a person say he has "beliefs" when he's really just accepting proven scientific facts?

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl,
    Off hand, Romans 6:15-18 describes becoming a "slave to righteousness" - that requires repentance. But the final authority rests on Christ himself... read the gospels... Jesus calls us to repentance for forgiveness of sins, for salvation.

  • Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Bobcu: That's cool, but does that mean you aren't an atheist, since it has the word 'theist' in it?;-)

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