The head of the World Council of Churches, the Rev. Dr. Samuel Kobia, has expressed his support for full communion among all denominations by the middle of the 21st century.
In a front page interview with the Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano published on Friday, Kenyan Methodist Kobia said that he expected the world’s Christian denominations to be united enough by that time to be able to join in Holy Communion together.
"My vision for the ecumenical movement is that by the mid-21st century we will have reached a level of unity such that Christians everywhere regardless of their confessional affiliations, can pray and worship together and feel welcome to share in the Lord's Table at every church," said Kobia.
His comments came ahead of a key meeting with Pope Benedict on Friday and an ecumenical prayer service in the afternoon to mark the end of the 100th annual Week of Prayer for Christian Unity.
At present, the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Churches do not permit members of other denominations to join in their celebrations of the Eucharist. Intercommunion would be a significant symbol of unity among Christians.
Kobia went on to express his belief that sharing communion was the foundation for reconciling divisions across the world.
He told the Vatican daily, "By this example, the church can help humanity to overcome all divisions and people of the world be able to live together in peace and harmony regardless of their backgrounds and identities."
Kobia, whose WCC brings together 347 churches, denominations and church fellowships, added that efforts among Christians to find unity had been crucial to building a peaceful Europe in the aftermath of two world wars.
"Ecumenical cooperation and the search for unity among the churches has definitely played a role in overcoming the heritage of two world wars and building peaceful relationships in Europe," Kobia said.
"Who would have thought at the beginning of the last century that only some decades later Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Reformed, Methodists, Baptists and churches of other traditions would be working together in the World Council of Churches?
"Surely, the Second Vatican Council was a watershed and opened the door to meaningful ecumenical co-operation between the Roman Catholic Church and many of the member churches of the WCC."
Catholics, however, are skeptical that shared communion will become a reality any time soon. Despite Kobia’s article hitting the Vatican broadsheet’s front page, the Pope made no reference to it in his address, saying simply that he hoped Christian unity “will be ever more fully realized in our time.”
RSS
Prophet,
This is a common pattern for taj; he does not really want to discuss the real issues, so, he goes about trying to cause disunity among us. This is something that I have noticed for some time; really unfortunate.
Online4Him,
He's just up to his old tricks...trying to cause division. Which is anti-scriptural.
Taj,
Though there may be disagreements from time to time; I am convinced that prophet, annieforjesus, and wilderness know Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. They have testified to the Lord's goodness here on the CP and have also defended the truths of God's word.
Taj,
Why do you keep bringing up people who convert to Catholicism? That does not prove anything; what about the former priests who left Catholicism for the true gospel of Christ?
Like Richard Bennet who was born into a Roman Catholic family, educated in Ireland and Rome, was a priest for 22yrs and gave it all up.
Like Silvester Ezhumala who was a priest for 15yrs and then left to preach the true gospel of Christ. He writes the forward to the book, Once a Catholic.
Like Bartholomew F. Brewer who was a priest in the Discalced Carmelite Order and left to preach the gospel of Christ. He wrote the book, Pilgrimage from Rome; nice guy, I had a phone conversation with him a few years back.
So, as you can see; there has been conversions from both sides. Truth can only be determined by the Scriptures.
TAJ,
Yeah, I'm sure that whether people agree with me or not will prove or disprove that you're spiteful. I'm trying to figure out your lack of logic.
Anniefourjesus,
It is true that there are people throughout Christendom who love and follow Christ regardless of their name tags. My concern is the neglecting of biblical truth; we are witnessing the emergence of a pluralistic gospel where love and unity is the central issue. What about “truth”? This article is talking about “full communion” between Protestants and Catholics; how can this be, when Protestants for example, believe in the inspiration of Scripture above tradition, believe in the priesthood of believers, believe in justification by faith – apart from works, believe in salvation by grace alone, believe that Christ is the only mediator between God and men (mankind), believe that the Holy Spirit is Christ’s true representative on earth, etc. This article also highlights the “Eucharist” which according to Catholics – the bread or host becomes Jesus Christ himself; the Mass becomes a reoccurring daily sacrifice that is contrary to scripture. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus was offered up “ONCE” for sins! I attended a wedding last Saturday night; the service was at a Catholic church and during the service the priest lifted up the host (wafer) and said, “This is Jesus”.
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself – Hebrews 7:27.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all – Hebrews 10:10.
I am sure some Catholics also take issue with this possible “full communion”. I agree with what you and Prophet said about loving and helping one another; we should continue to do this without sacrificing the truths of Scripture. Doctrine is important and it should not be set aside in order to attain “full communion” - This has been my point all along.
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained – 1Timothy 4:6.
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee – 1Timothy 4:16.
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers – Titus 1:9.
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: - Titus 2:1.
I'm spiteful? ok, prophet let's prove it:
"We are to be in unity with our brothers and sisters, otherwise we will not be in unity with Christ. We are all part of the body of Christ, regardless of the name over the door of our church. Anyone who has recieved Christ as their savior, whether Methodist, Unitarian, Pentacost, Evangelical, Catholic, SDA, SBC, etc, is part of His body". That is what this article is about and you agree. Ok, let's see how many of the people who post after this statement agree. Ok anniefourjesus, online4him, wilderness, ....do you agree? Now let us wait and see.
annie,
You'll have to fogive truthandjustice. He's filled with anger and spite. And he's double-minded. He spent a considerable amount of time with me and some other people, nagging us to no end to tell him what denomination we were. And now he "doesn't want to know". He also got so upset with us for posting anti-Catholic messages, and now he wants us to. I don't get him, and I don't think I want to. I usually just let him rant and rage, and ignore him until he actually says or asks something mature.
We can only hope that those in the Catholic church can see through all that religious garbage and see the real truth of Jesus. Some actually do.
truthandjustice,
God couldn't care less about the history of your church, my church, or any other church out there. He just wants to know if you're teaching the truth. History and tradtions make Him sick. They put His children into bondage. They take us farther from Him, instead of closer. Traditions are a man-made creation, totally independent from God. The only "traditions" God asks us to observe is the sabbath, and communion. Anything outside of that is just heaping an unneccesary yoke upon us.
After attending our church for over 15 years I finally felt God telling me to become a member (long story). In our "new members" class they went over the history of our "Church". I dont care! It is interesting, yes. But it plays absolutely no part whatsoever in my salvation, or what God has for me to do. So get off the "blessed" history of the RCC. Who cares. And while you're busy with your head in the past, you'll miss what God is doing today.
anniefourjesus,
One more thing, please don't mention what church you belong to because it confuses a lot of us who have no clue what denomination you are referring to. There are over 30,000 different protestant denominations and it gets confusing trying to remember them all. Can we just please continue to discuss the merits or your problems with the Catholic Church?
Why did the President of the Evangelical Theological Society convert to Catholicism last year? in his own words: "Protestants simply do not have a good grounding in Christian history... I returned to the early Christian Fathers and found in them, very early on, [confirming] the real presence, infant baptism and apostolic succession, as well as other "Catholic" doctrines. But what was shocking to me is that one never finds in the fathers' claims that these doctrines are "unbiblical" or "apostate" or "not Christian," as one finds in contemporary anti-Catholic fundamentalist literature. So, at worst, I thought, the Catholic doctrines were considered legitimate options early on in church history by the men who were discipled by the apostles and/or the apostles' disciples. At best, the Catholic doctrines are part of the deposit of faith passed on to the successors of the apostles and preserved by the teaching authority of the Catholic Church.
At this point, I thought, if I reject the Catholic Church, there is good reason for one to believe I am rejecting the church that Christ himself established. That's not a risk I was willing to take.
After all, if I return to the church and participate in the sacraments, I lose nothing, since I would still be a follower of Jesus and believe everything that the catholic creeds teach, as I have always believed. But if the church is right about itself and the sacraments, I acquire graces I would have not otherwise received."
Online4Him,
"We really should not be surprised when some turn from the gospel of Christ to other religions.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; - 2Timothy 4:3." I TOTALLY agree with you, I guess you noticed why the President of the Evangelical Theological Society converted to Catholicism last year - because Catholics can quote from the early Christian fathers ..whould I be impressed when wilderness quotes from somebody in 1888? As for AnniefourChrist (poor grammar aside) I haven't heard from you since you were stating how great Huckabee is/was are you still supporting him? the campaign needs money to pay for his staff, so hope you have been giving. Nice attempt to blame the Church because your dad didn't want to pick up a bible and read it. Has he ever heard of a place called a library? I'm guess the priests and nuns never told him about a library. The poor guy driving by libraries all of his life and thinking they were post offices.
Whoever calls upon the Name of the LORD, shall be saved!! The LORD doesn't leave anyone out, so why should we. Do you know for a fact Online for Him that God doesn't have some sheep in those pens?? I was a member of the Worldwide Church of God, Pasadena CA, when we were quite the legalistic church, there were many including myself who had come into a better understanding, but felt led by THE LORD not to move out; The LORD caused that whole church to be shaken and The power of The Holy Spirit changed hearts and minds!
I remember very well, the day the sermon was preached on being BORN AGAIN! That was historic for WCG and thank you Jesus for leading us out of the darkness we were in!
He will do that for those who truly SEEK HIM! no matter what denom they are in; because HE is not bound by those things. He is building HIS church, man is not doing a thing, we brought the sin; what man does that God won't do/can't do; is we REPENT of the evil we have done in HIS sight! HE brings the GRACE, it is all about JESUS, nothing about us!!!!! Hallelujah!!
HE REIGNS! And all God's children said, AMEN!
Prophet: My dad grew up Catholic and in the last 15 years he gave accepted Jesus as his Savior and we have great discussions about how he was raised; and we've heatedly discussed how Mary is not the mother of God! That she is not someone we should be praying to. She is human just as we are; yes she was a blessed chosen vessel, but so are all those the LORD has chosen to carry HIS Glory!
Jesus is LORD, there is no other Name under heaven or earth by which men must be saved.
For me these are the core beliefs: Jesus, born, crucified, dead, buried, resurrected, ascended into Heaven! I accept and believe what HE says! Do I fully understand the Word of God (The Bible) no, but The HolySpirit is my teacher and my comforter as The Lord promised to those who are born again!
My dad is always amazed when I read certain Scriptures to him; because he never really read the Bible as a child, he was told what it said by nuns and priets. Today, he doesn't fully understand the many denominations, and ffrankly neither do I.
The Body of Christ is those who are called out, set apart by GOD, who yield their life, recognizing they need a Savior, can not atone for my sin, but God has made a way and that way is Jesus Christ, alone!
The Bible is a collection of stories of God working in very human lives and the story of Salvation. What gets to me is that JESUS said what was important:
To love the LORD your GOD and your neighbor as yourself! If Jesus is abiding in me and I am in Him; HIS LOVE is shed abroad in my heart by The Holy Spirit (who I am sealed with as a guarantee until Christ returns) and God has prepared works for me to be involved with.
So, I should be about my Father's business, sharing my testimony and declaring the Word of the LORD, by my very life! I don't care where a person is sitting, God knows where each one of us is, and don't you think, HE knew all these denominations would exist and within those denominations, is the Body of Christ, well hidden and God will sort the tares from the wheat when HE returns! That is HIS business.
Prophet thank you, I did not know that Pope meant Father; I'm not a babe in Christ,but I am to many aspects of world religions.
I have always known that Roman Catholic faith is so works based and icon ladened and I'm not bowing down to any graven images.
God is Spirit and Truth and true worshippers, Worship HIM in Spirit and in Truth.
Unity is maturing in the faith of Jesus Christ! When we all reach that; when we lay aside mans doctrines and embrace the DOCTRINE OF LOVE: 1 Corinthians 13!!!
When we love out of a heart full of God's love; when we get God centered and not self-centered; then the Body of Christ allows the LORD to be LORD! The church is NOT THE LORD!
So many are caught up in non-essentials...let the love of Christ, reign in your hearts!
Prophet,
"We are to be in unity with our brothers and sisters, otherwise we will not be in unity with Christ. We are all part of the body of Christ, regardless of the name over the door of our church. Anyone who has received Christ as their savior, whether Methodist, Unitarian, Pentacost, Evangelical, Catholic, SDA, SBC, etc, is part of His body."
"Anyone who has received Christ as their savior,"
This is the acid test, is it not? My point is Christians should not set aside biblical truth for the sake of unity. This article in essence is speaking about uniting biblical Christianity with groups such as Catholicism; you and I both know that Rome does not preach the true gospel of Christ. It is a system based upon works and has set itself up in the place of Christ. You also mentioned the Unitarians; Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion that encompasses many faith traditions. Unitarian Universalists include people who identify as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, and others. This type of universalism is sweeping the land today and this is why the biblical gospel is being diluted and redefined.
I never said that we as Christians should not unite in areas where we can be of assistance to one another or that we should neglect one another because we have a different name tag above our doors. I have been in a bible study group for the past several months where brothers there are representing different denominations. It is a blessing to all in attendance.
"Anyone who has received Christ as their savior,"
Which Christ are we talking about; is it the Christ of Scripture or someone entirely different?
Amen, annie!
But don't you know who the Pope is? He is God's right hand man! He's one rung short of deity! He's infallible, utterly perfect, in his interpretation of the scriptures! I say that tongue-in-cheek though.
But many Catholics do regard him above God, because they take what he says as truth, without studying the true Word of God to make sure it's scriptural. He's the leader of the biggest religious movement in the world. And many Catholics believe that might makes right. If it's so big, it must be right! The bigger the religion, the more right it must be. That's human philosophy. Worthless, corrupt, errant, and self-centered. And the word "Pope" means "father". And the Word of God says to call no one Father, but our Father in heaven.
I will say, though, that there are many truly saved, born again Christians in the Catholic faith. And why they remain there, I do not know. But I don't judge them. After all, why has God told me to remain in my church organization when He knows that there are so many things wrong with it? I don't know. But I do know that God is moving in our church. And He will move in many other churches. God looks beyond the titles and denominations. He looks at the heart. That is all He cares about.
I would like to know who is the Pope or any other man to not take communion with another Christian, how is this Christ like?
Jesus body was broken and poured out for the WORLD! John 3:16. If anyone calls upon the Name of the LORD, he shall be saved! When I examine myself, I see that I need JESUS CHRIST and after I pray, I take communion! I do not see in my Bible where God tells me to reject any one because that person might go to another church!
GOD did not set up denominations, this is division, HE told us Satan, come to seek, kill and destroy, Satan is the divider, not Jesus Christ!
Jesus is the LORD, Redeemer and it is to HIM I worship and praise, anyone reading this list, if you don't know Jesus Christ, my prayer is that you will and please do not look at what some "christians" say is gospel. Please read the Bible for yourself and ask The Holy Spirit to help you understand it; He will! REad the Book of John! Great place to start for new believers!
JESUS CHRIST is available to all people! Not all will receive Him, sadly enough. Jesus said, we would all be (body of CHrist) UNITED under Christ, not under the POPE, where is that in Scripture??
God has not mother, Jesus had a mother, the God.Man....but God is not a created being, HE is the CREATOR!!! He alone is GOD!
All glory to God!
Online4Him,
I must disagree with you on that point. We are to be in unity with our brothers and sisters, otherwise we will not be in unity with Christ. We are all part of the body of Christ, regardless of the name over the door of our church. Anyone who has recieved Christ as their savior, whether Methodist, Unitarian, Pentacost, Evangelical, Catholic, SDA, SBC, etc, is part of His body. And if you are not in unity with any part of the Body, you are not in unity with Him. I don't believe we have to agree in everything, but we need to accept each other. Whether you believe in baptism by immersion, or by sprinkling, will not change whether your name is in the Lamb's Book of Life. Whether you believe in Baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence, or not, will not change your salvation.
I just came from a meeting with the judiciary/probationary people. Churches from all over our city were invited to this meeting, but only a handful showed up (thats sad). They wanted to discuss with the faith-based groups about dealing with people on probation. They wanted our help in re-acclimating them back into society, with our role being one of building relationships with these individuals, encouraging them, giving them hope and a sense of purpose. We had people from many different denominations there. We were in unity. We didn't argue semantics and doctrine. We were working together to help people in dire need. No one compormised their doctrine or beliefs.
THAT is the unity that God expects of us.
to online4Him,
Thanks for your questions and comments.
I do have a couple of people I work with that say they are Christian and attend mainline churches, but regard Jesus solely as a great teacher, but not God and certainly not Savior.
I know that some churches do not allow those who don't agree with their theology of eucharist to participate in eucharist in their body. Those others may not want to participate though... This certainly seems to be at the heart of the full communion talks.
Jesus Christ alone is the only one we need to be united to -
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: - Colossians 2:10.
Oh, blessed is he who clings with love and confidence to those two anchors of salvation, Jesus and Mary! He certainly will not be lost. (The Glories of Mary - Translated From the Italian of St. Alphonsus Liguori - New Revised Edition - 1888)
Dear readers, Mary is not a co-anchor of our salvation. Let no man embrace such communion. Our salvation is through Jesus Christ alone:
Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
We really should not be surprised when some turn from the gospel of Christ to other religions.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; - 2Timothy 4:3.
Wilderness,
I could discuss Catholicism with you all day because at the end of the day we are discussing my faith. I personally could care less nor would want to discuss whatever denomination you belong to. Perhaps, somebody like just like the former President of the Evangelical Theological Society might stumble on this site and do their own historical research.
Rodriguez, of the Society of Jesus, was once standing before an image of Mary; and there burning with love for the most holy Virgin, broke forth into these words: "My most amiable mother, I know that thou lovest me, but thou dost not love me so much as I love thee." Then Mary, as if wounded in her love, spoke to him from that image and said: "What dost thou say what dost thou say, oh Alphonso? Oh, how much greater is the love I bear thee than the love thou bearest me! Know that the distance from heaven to earth is not so great as from my love to thine." (The Glories of Mary - Translated From the Italian of St. Alphonsus Liguori - New Revised Edition - 1888)
Dear reader, Rodriquez was deceived into a false communion. The Word of God speaks, let us take heed, and let our communion with God be pure.
Ex 20:3-5 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
I say on the mercy of Mary: for St. Bernard says, we may praise her humility, and marvel at her virginity; but being poor sinners, we are more pleased and attracted by hearing of her mercy; for to this we more affectionately cling, this we more often remember and invoke.* (The Glories of Mary - Translated From the Italian of St. Alphonsus Liguori - New Revised Edition - 1888)
Unfortunately, Bernard was enticed into a false communion. A poor sinner can find no mercy in Mary, and such should never be led into being attracted to such a false hope. The mercy that we all need comes from God alone.
“Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:16)
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” (Titus 3:5-7).
“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)” (Eph 2:4, 5)
“Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.” (Jude 1:21)
Gregory of Nazianz
"If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead" (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).
I could go on and on and on, but then you might be asking yourself...so you have quotes from the bible about the incredible importance of Mary and supported by the early Christian Fathers, but we have the protestant reformation and the bible only mentality....what would you choose?? I commend the President of the Evangelical Theological Society for having theological honesty. It should serve as a warning to other evangelicals not to read history before the protestant reformation because you might not like what you discover
Epiphanius of Salamis
"Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).
Ambrose of Milan
"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?" (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).
As for Mary, since denying that Mary is God's mother implies doubt about Jesus' divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God. The Hail Mary in Catholicism is taken Directly from the bible. But why did the President of the Evangelical Theological Society convert to Catholicism last year? oh yeah, history of the early Christian Fathers as well as the bible (which the protestants thank goodness didn't have a part in putting together or even being around until over 1000 years later). What did the early Christian Fathers say?
Gregory the Wonderworker (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).
"It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, 'Hail, full of grace!'".
Cyril of Jerusalem
"The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person's faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God's presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That's something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us
Asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ's mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ's unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ's role as mediator.
Why did the President of the Evangelical Theological Society convert to Catholicism last year? in his own words: "Protestants simply do not have a good grounding in Christian history... I returned to the early Christian Fathers and found in them, very early on, [confirming] the real presence, infant baptism and apostolic succession, as well as other "Catholic" doctrines. But what was shocking to me is that one never finds in the fathers' claims that these doctrines are "unbiblical" or "apostate" or "not Christian," as one finds in contemporary anti-Catholic fundamentalist literature. So, at worst, I thought, the Catholic doctrines were considered legitimate options early on in church history by the men who were discipled by the apostles and/or the apostles' disciples. At best, the Catholic doctrines are part of the deposit of faith passed on to the successors of the apostles and preserved by the teaching authority of the Catholic Church.
At this point, I thought, if I reject the Catholic Church, there is good reason for one to believe I am rejecting the church that Christ himself established. That's not a risk I was willing to take.
After all, if I return to the church and participate in the sacraments, I lose nothing, since I would still be a follower of Jesus and believe everything that the catholic creeds teach, as I have always believed. But if the church is right about itself and the sacraments, I acquire graces I would have not otherwise received."
MarProv356,
"A lot of Christians don't agree on the basics about Jesus, whether He is a good teacher, God, Savior, prophet..."
The scriptures cleary teach that he is all of the above; I have not persoanlly heard "a Christian" question the divinity of Christ - that would be disturbing. Most Christians believe that the Bible was given by divine inspiration - "God breathed."
"is eucharist actually the body & blood or commemoration of Jesus' sacrifice are the things that aren't easily glossed over when approaching the topic of unity/communion. They are almost the unsaid things in Christian ecumenism."
As far as the Lord's Supper; I believe it is the latter of the two. You are right when you say that these issues are being "glossed" over. We should not set aside biblical truth for the sake of unity.
Thank you for replying.
To answer Online4Him:
A lot of Christians don't agree on the basics about Jesus, whether He is a good teacher, God, Savior, prophet... I have seen this disagreement on foundational issues create a lot of disagreement, but also a lot of room for talking. Foundational issues like is Jesus man and God, is the Bible written by man or inspired by God, is eucharist actually the body & blood or commemoration of Jesus' sacrifice are the things that aren't easily glossed over when approaching the topic of unity/communion. They are almost the unsaid things in Christian ecumenism.
“Let us pray to Mary Most Holy that she obtain for the Church the same passion for the kingdom of God that animated the mission of Jesus Christ: passion for God, for his lordship of life and of love; passion for man, encountered in truth to give him the most precious treasure; the love of God, his Creator and Father.” (Benedict XVI - Vatican City, Jan. 27, 2008 - Zenit.org)
Unfortunately, Benedict exhorted the masses to pray “to” Mary. In response, I exhort all to flee such poisonous communion. The blessed Mary of the bible would be horrified at such advice. Let us hear the word of the Lord today:
Ps 69:13 But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O LORD, in an acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in the truth of thy salvation.
Mt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father…
1Jn 2:1 …we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
MarProv356,
"When all who call themselves Christians can agree on the basics of who Jesus even IS,"
"Unless the foundations are unified,. . ."
Can you elaborate on these statments?
When all who call themselves Christians can agree on the basics of who Jesus even IS, then maybe true unity communion can exist. All do not agree on even what eucharist communion means. Unless the foundations are unified, we parse words and concepts.... and probably break God's heart...
I personally feel that a lot of evangelicals are uneasy with this new prosperity gospel as indicated by comments left on other comment boards. I was as surprised as anybody last year when the President of the Evangelical Theological Society converted to Catholicism.
Yes, BUT I think the Pope at the moment is really interested in only looking for communion with the Orthodox churches. I think the 30,000+ protestant churches is an impossibility because they are all over the place theologically and this prosperity gospel that is getting a hold in a lot of protestant churches is something Catholics are uncomfortable about. Yes, Warren, Osteen, etc. are correct that their numbers are increasing but it's a direction I'd hope the Catholic Church wouldn't look at.
http://www.austindiocese.org/newsletter_article_view.php?id=1135
truthandjustice1,
That video was interesting; why would the pope allow prayers to be made by various religious leaders who do not claim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to be offered up? Time will tell which direction this will go; the feeling is mutual when it comes to full communion with Rome. I can see a united front against social ills such as poverty, aids, human rights, etc; however, I do not believe there can be full communion theologically without some compromise. Compromise has already begun by some Protestants in my opinion; but we both have discussed these things at length, so, time will tell.
You said: “The Pope has historically honored various faith leaders and beliefs, but he WILL NOT enter into communion with them.”
John Paul ll did continue the hope of a full communion within the Christian community when he issued “Ut Unum Sint” (“That They May Be One”) where he appealed to the Christian community to continue toward full Christian unity. He also praised the progress toward Christian unity achieved in the three decades since the Second Vatican Council set ecumenism as a goal of the Roman Catholic Church. My point is; they have and continue to seek full communion – New York Times News Service – May, 31, 1995.
Online4Him,
Interesting clip, however let's remember that the Pope has been a continual thorn in the side of the new world order. Just read Ron Paul's take on it and he isn't even Catholic:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul244.html
As for taking other beliefs and turning them into Christian Catholic beliefs honoring our Lord and Savior that is something that Popes and Catholics have historically done. As we both know Christmas was a pagan holiday. It was in the winter months, the tree, etc. but Catholics converted the pagans by turning the holiday into a Christian holiday by having it as the time that we honor the birth of our Lord and Savior. The timing of holidays etc. have long been about turning non believers to Christ. However, it is entering into full communion that the Catholic Church has ALWAYS stopped short. Even the Pope this year reiterated that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. In other words he DOESN'T want to enter into full communion with other groups. He DOESN'T want to dilute the message of Christ as proclaimed by the Catholic Church - I don't care if it is the World Churches, Billy Graham, Dobson, etc. who have visited the Vatican and wanted communion he will not give it. The Pope has historically honored various faith leaders and beliefs, but he WILL NOT enter into communion with them.
John 17:21 says, “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
However, what is ignored by the ecumenists is the prerequisite that alone will provide unity.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth – John 17:17.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrigtheousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
I think a great starting point is that we're at least talking about it, considering how it would happen. Jesus can bring it about. We're brothers and sisters in Christ with the same Father, the same Savior brother. Lord, give us the vision to see the gifts in other parts of the body of Christ and the power to be realized when John 17:21 returns again. In Jesus' name, Amen.
Taj,
Yeah, it is unfortunate that "all" churches are moving this direction. It is imperative that we focus on being a “Christian” rather holding on to a “name tag” - Protestant or Catholic. It is high time we start taking a look at what Jesus said concerning the last days; there is so much deception sweeping the world.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him – Revelation 12:9.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SARhUECBqLI
Online4Him,
You can see it in their evangelical leaders look at Joel Osteen:
WALLACE: And what about Mitt Romney? And I've got to ask you the question, because it is a question whether it should be or not in this campaign, is a Mormon a true Christian?
OSTEEN: Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his savior, and that's what I believe, so, you know, I'm not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are.
And so, you know, Mitt Romney seems like a man of character and integrity to me, and I don't think he would — anything would stop me from voting for him if that's what I felt like.
WALLACE: So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues?
OSTEEN: I probably don't get hung up in them because I haven't really studied them or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don't know.
I certainly can't say that I agree with everything that I've heard about it, but from what I've heard from Mitt, when he says that Christ is his savior, to me that's a common bond.
- Source: FOX News Sunday With Chris Wallace, Dec. 23, 2007
Wow Online4Him, you are partially right this time and that is why I think the Catholic Church has to discern what they have in common with the 30,000+ different protestant denominations. I mean we have now witnessed some of them condone homosexuality, abortion,... I think they might join each other and the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox might merge....WHAT AN INCREDIBLE DIFFERENCE IF THAT OCCURS!! Praise God
In case you all have not read; this planet will unite under one banner but it will also be in opposition to God himself - Revelation 13:1-18.
Excellent Article! "Catholics, however, are skeptical that shared communion will become a reality any time soon". I realize, as this article points out, that many protestant denominations want the Catholic Church to have a shared communion, but the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholics are different. I really don't know how they are going to find commonalities with the 1000s of protestant denominations, especially around something as vitally important as Holy Communion.