Rick Warren: Mainline Church Problems Need Evangelical Solution

By Michelle A. Vu|Christian Post Reporter

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“God likes variety,” Warren said with a laugh.

Besides membership decline, many mainline churches also report decline in financial contribution.

Warren said his church does “zero” fundraising, but instead teaches biblical stewardship and generosity. Saddleback raised $7 million for Hurricane Katrina relief efforts and $1.6 million for the tsunami with one simple announcement made from the pulpit.

Personally, Warren and his wife Kay have led the church by example. The couple tithed the standard 10 percent during their first year of marriage, but raised it one percent each year thereafter - 12 percent during their second year or marriage, 13 percent in their third year of marriage, and so forth.

But after the success of Warren’s book The Purpose Driven Life, the couple practiced reverse tithing – giving 90 percent to God’s work and living on 10 percent.

The Purpose Driven Life is the best-selling hardback in U.S. history and one of the best sellers in the world.

Other points in Warren’s talk Sunday included his global P.E.A.C.E. Plan and his belief in the need for a second reformation - one where Christians change their behavior to reflect what they claim to believe in.

Next week, Warren will attend the National Prayer Breakfast and hold a small meeting with D.C.-area pastors.

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Joe12234 »

Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:55 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

The gospel has not changed. God has not changed. The church (and Christians) need to be obedient to Christ and proclaim the (entire) truth of the gospel message. (Mark 16:15-16)

God will grow His kingdom and we can be blessed to take our role in that by obeying Him.
Rich Buckley »

Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:19 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Getting on the "same team" as Rick beckons is problematic because we really do not share the same Christ. You seem to have yours and I seem to have mine. Your's scares me and mine seems to scare you.

Maybe there is a better way for us to try and be on the same team. What do you think?
dondent »

Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:22 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

I agree with Bill Wagner,candidate for SBC president 2008, that there are too much political reasoning involve . The International Mission Board has new direction and new strategy . It is no longer a missionary sending agency as it should be . It is a company . It used to be like a family when everyone related to each other as uncle and aunt . The mission family is a thing of the past . Now it is a company with big boss and small bosses. Pray that God will move the Southern Baptists to become a sending tools for the family of God .
Oglefam »

Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:07 pm Agree: 4 Disagree: 1

Brothers in Christ, take these words from 2 Thessalonians to heart…“not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter” and “Let no one deceive you by any means” because “the falling away comes first” in order that “the man of sin is revealed.” “Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?” And they are still true today.

“The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

This is why 1 John 2:27 states: “the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.”

Remember we have a teacher who teaches those who seek his will and way as their first love. Let those who are blind lead the blind and remember what our God has said: “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, says the LORD, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the LORD, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive.”

This is not to say we don’t “contend for the faith”, we must, but not to let those we contend with continue to consume our pearls. Jesus instructed his disciples thus: “If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.”
Topekan »

Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:37 am Agree: 4 Disagree: 1

Don't forget that Jesus, by his own attestation, did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Prophet »

Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:52 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

dum dum dum...Jeremiah was a prophet!
dum dum dum...Was a good friend of mine!
I couldn't understand a word he wrote,
But he laid it on the line....
Joy to the world...

LOL
alamola »

Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:35 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

...(imagine soft music playing along)...what the world needs now is love sweet love...it's the onlllyyy thinnnnnggg that there's just to litttttllleee of ..what the world needs now is love sweet love....EVERYBODY SING ALONG...what the world needs now.....
jesus4me »

Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:39 pm Agree: 9 Disagree: 2

Rick Warren, The Emergent Church, pretty much the whole democratic party including, but not limited to Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, Hillary, Barbara Boxer, and Bill Clinton, as well as those in the Republican Party with a liberal New-Age Agenda along with the Theosophical Society and the UN all need to be deported to the South Sandwich Islands or France.

1 Timothy 4:1
[ The Great Apostasy ] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1-3 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

2 Peter 2:1
[ Destructive Doctrines ] But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1-3 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter
Online4Him »

Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:15 pm Agree: 9 Disagree: 1

KoneWone2,

Listen now to Worldview Matters with Brannon Howse:

http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/radio-show-episode.php?EpisodeID=4328

This was an excellent discussion on Worldviews and it also gave additional insight to how liberals such as Rick Warren are ignoring the exclusivity of biblical Christianity for a pluralistic religion.

Thanks for the link.
jesus4me »

Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:05 am Agree: 7 Disagree: 0

1 Timothy 4:1
[ The Great Apostasy ] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1-3 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

2 Peter 2:1
[ Destructive Doctrines ] But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1-3 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 2:4
[ Doom of False Teachers ] For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
2 Peter 2:3-5 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 2:12
[ Depravity of False Teachers ] But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
2 Peter 2:11-13 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 2:18
[ Deceptions of False Teachers ] For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
2 Peter 2:17-19 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
jmokkonen »

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:01 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Let's give Pastor Warren fair ground on tithing. How many of you can give 90%? I know I can't. Although criticized by some as being too doctrinally weak, A PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE fills a need and provides a bridge to faith for unbelievers. It helped me and my children. Paul spoke of the young believer needing milk...Well if APDL is not milk...at least it is baby formula. We've moved on to meatier stuff...Yes understanding the Bible takes work...but it is not hard. Let's acknowledge the truly Christian service that Pastor Warren has provided with APDL, and don't begrudge the bountiful fruit of thousands of readers who were turned to the Lord. As far as I can see, his financial wealth is blessing. We don't have to agree with everything any Pastor says or does...Remember not to judge…We all sin.
Prophet »

Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:37 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

suxam,
To play the "devil's advocate" (though I don't like that term). If giving in secret is encouraged, why did Jesus sit by the church treasury watching how much people put in? Yes, He is the Son of God, and probably had a right to know. But why did He divulge it to His disciples?
I'm not arguing your point, I'm merely wanting to know your opinion. I actually agree with you. My giving is between me, God, and my pastor (since I hold an office in our church). It is no one else's business.
suxam »

Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:11 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

It is great that Warren gives 90%. Of course, there is the tax free housing allowance; all expenses paid for just about everything; first class travel or private jet. And 10% times ten to twenty million not to mention the further protection of charitable giving should leave Warren with enough to get by. He may even forego social security checks. Last time I checked the Bible giving in secret was still encouraged.
Prophet »

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:30 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Jonathon wrote:
"You quote bible but you do not know what it means. You judge others but you yourself is worst of the sinners. Aren't you scared to judge others? I am. Especially, people that bare fruits, how do you feel alright to judge them and condemn them especially using bible? Bible that you do not understand."
And then wrote:
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing."

But, yet, I see no love in him. There is no love in his posts. Just pride, anger, judgement, and piousness.
So be it.
jesus4me »

Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:47 am Agree: 8 Disagree: 3

jonathan wrote:

"Jesus drank to traitor tax collector. You will hang him.
Jesus talked to woman 5 divorced with live-in boyfriend. You will hang her.
Jesus will cuss at fundamentalist (teachers of law and pharisees.) You love them.
Jesus said to be the peace maker. You love war. Kill the Muslims.
Jesus fed the hungry. You will make sure they don't get fed if they don't believe you.
Jesus was hang by the politicians(both roman and jewish). You use politics for such purpose."

Can you please tell me whewre in the Bible Jesus cussed at someone?

And please, when you reference Scripture, please tell the whole story. The woamn at the well that had been divorced 5 times, you will notice that Jesus loved her and did not condemn her, but notice the key phrase you left out in your conclusion of fundamentalism - you failed to say that Jesus said - "go and sin no more". Obviously Jesus knew there was a willful repentance in her heart to turn to Him as LORD and SAVIOR.

Furthermore, when Jesus told Peter: :"Get thee behind me Satan...." Do you think Jesus was "loving" in your interpretation of the word "love oozing out of people"???????

When Paul named Hymenaeous and Alexander as having fallen and leaving the straight and narrow, was not Paul being true to his calling in pointing out those that had followed error.

I am not Pharassaical by pointing people to the whole counsel of God. Am I being pHarissaical by stating that Jesus is the only way to God??????? Am I being Pharrasaical by quoting Scripture in CONTEXT by exhorting people to repent if they are in willful, deliberate living in sin and still claiming to be "alright" with God? Am I being a Pharisee because I desire to see the TRUTH of God's Whole Counsel being preached and taught in purity and truth from America's pulpits rather than having a "humanitarian form of evangelicalism" without preaching the truth of Jesus Christ being the only way to God????

No Jonathan, study your Bible from A-Z. You must have repentance and a willful turning to Christ, a sincere desire to rurn from your sin, and a belief in Him not just intellectually, but from the heart, a sincere desire to die to yourself daily, pick up your cross, and follow Christ in order to be saved. Paul did not live out the "cultural" Christianity we see in many church movements today, no, he lived it out and said he was not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
john14-6 »

Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:36 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

jonathan--

Faith requires repentance (sometimes daily repentance). You have not read your Bible very carefully. Jesus speaks of repentance often. So does Paul. So does James. Faith that does not result in repentance and good works is dead faith. It's mere intellectual assent. James says that even the demons believe in God. Real, true saving faith is a faith that produces good works from the heart, and repentance from the heart. It is not so much that repentance and good works are *required* for salvation, but that a saving faith is one that will produce good works and repentance. Hope that makes sense. And this is believed just as strongly in the protestant tradition (at least mainline Lutheran, etc) as it is in the Catholic tradition.

Hope that made sense to you.
Chris333 »

Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:28 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

Also don't worry about how you look, everyone on this post looks obsessed (even the atheists)
Chris333 »

Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:02 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 1

Jonathan, I too believe that salvation is by faith alone, I do not understand where you got that I didn't believe that? Because I mentioned how Jesus always told sinners to repent? Well then you have a problem with Jesus and not me. Anyways, I have not hated anyone, and I am not jealous of anyone persay. I am not sure what you are saying, it is almost impossible to tell anything, make some real statements.
KoneWone2 »

Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:07 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 3

Rick Warren goes to the National Cathedral and declares that "the future of the world is not secularism, it's religious pluralism." Warren is also calling for mainline churches and evangelicals to come back together. Can you say ecumenicalism or one-world religion?

http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/3005/Brannon_Howse

listen now to Worldview Matters with Brannon Howse:

http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/radio-show-episode.php?EpisodeID=4328

Be faithful in the way you handle God's Holy Word and check these out as well:

The Gospel According to Warren

http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/Articles/print_articles.asp?ID=112

Critique: The Evangelism Message of Rick Warren

http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.650

The Gospel: A Method or a Message?
How the Purpose Driven Life Obscures the Gospel

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue80.htm
jonathanjkim »

Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:02 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

I look obsessed. Sorry. God bless you all and give peace and comfort.
jonathanjkim »

Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:51 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Chris333: jesus4me=hate&jealousy. you are just ignorant. and I am not your friend. We are strangers I am sure. Your belief in Faith+Repentance=Salvation isn't my faith. My formula is Faith=Salvation. Repentance and good fruit is fruits of faith itself. I am sure you sin no more.

eahaddix:No! I did not waste my time. It never is wasting time when looking up bible for reference. I hope you get in frequent argument over biblical truth with critics. They point out stuff which makes you go back to bible for answer. It is a good exercise. Puts me straight with bible. When this country started people gathered around talking Theology and Politcs my History professor told me that is what made this country great.

Idolatry is a major sin in the Abrahamic religions regarding image. It is usually defined as worship of any cult image, idea, or object, as opposed to the worship of a God.(wiki)

Bible is hard to understand. Needs a lot of reference and explanations. Proper critic will be good too even though I am not getting much of that here.

(Matthew 24:10)At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Even false prophets will quote this. And say we must preach to the whole world and share our love and make sure they don't fall in hell. =D In order to identify those false teachers you have to see their wickedness(war, hatred, jealousy) and know their love went cold. If they still have love oozing out of them, he must be those few who stood firm to the end. What is Love? Learn from Jesus' example.
jonathanjkim »

Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:23 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 3

I am constantly studying solidifying my faith and correcting my mistakes.

Here is so far what I have learn from this forums. People here are "Radio Show Christians", not worth the title of Evangelical. Master of that universe is Dr. Dobson and his Family Research Council. I thought these were just old grandmas who I love. Gee, was i wrong. I giveup. Can't win an argument against Dr. Dobson. His middle name is Righteousness. I will vote Bush next time. I promise to watch Fox News the righteous news channel, too.

Ingrid Schlueter-Crosstalk Radio Show Host. profile:unknown
Ken Ham-Answers with Ken Ham Radio Show Host. profile:BS, Queensland IT.DoE-UoQ. young earth creationist(earth 6000year old)
Michael Reagan-The Michael Reagan Talk Show Host, Republican Party strategist. Reagan's adopted son. div71,rem75 UAriz(drop out)
Dr.Bob Cornuke-x-cop, costa mesa, ca MA,PhD Louisiana Baptist U. (unaccredited, considered meaningless(wiki))Biblical archaeologist
David Barton-BA, oral roberts U. doctor from Pensacola Christian coll(Pensacola [Christian College] ... has shown no interest in outside approval of any kind. Nor does it advertise its unaccredited status.[wiki]) Republican vice chair of texas
Dr. David Limbaugh-UofMissouri, law. Liberal bashing author(?)Brother of Rush Limbaugh.

I knew Rush Limbaugh was involved somewhere with all these radio.. hehe..

I hear these people put up people's name and address on the web so their extremist friends will call and scare 7 year old girl. http://sliceolaodicea.com/?p=61

Why can't their leaders be from traditional biblical training. Even Dr. Dobson is a pediatrician from USC. Go Trojan!

Rick Warren, BA, Cal Baptist, Riverside. MDiv. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, DMin. Fuller Theological Seminary.
KoneWone2 »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:06 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

Rick Warren at National Cathedral: Mainline and Evangelical Churches Should Reconcile

http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/3001/Ingrid_Schlueter

I for one do not trust Rick Warren and his Purpose Driven© agenda and never have. Study your Bibles yourselves for your very life.
Chris333 »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:59 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

Jonathan, absolutely noone said that Jesus was not "evangelical" in the sense I described, or in any sense. I said that protestant churches are not always. Please do not put words in my mouth. I attend an evangelical church and no one speaks in tongues or prophesies, very few do that except some pentecostal and fringe groups. Anyways, evangelical does not mean speaking in tongues or prophecying, let alone putting it above love in anyway.

Now you have a misunderstanding of love. Love is warning someone about upcoming danger in the most effective way possible. Certainly you would not say that Jesus was hateful because of what He said to the pharisees? The pharisees had a faulty idea of reality and the kingdom of God, yet we also see that Jesus was "intolerant" of their view and words. I do not mean He went and killed them, rather He never succumbed to it. To use my early example, there is a difference between loving a homosexual in a Christian way, and loving them in a blindly accepting secular way. You need to understand the difference.

Finally, how dare you accuse me of hating and being jealous! You accuse me of judging others and being hateful (I do not see why in any way) and then you assume something about me and wrongly (I should hope) judge me and put words in my mouth I never said. Perhaps you are the one who needs some humility my friend.
jonathanjkim »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:12 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Kenny5682,jesus4me,Chris333:

I just read the sad news. Poor Haitians resort to eating dirt link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080130/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/haiti_eating_dirt

Let's feed them. Please.

Haiti is Roman Catholic 80%, Protestant 16%, none 1%, other 3%. It's not a Muslim nation and looks like a bona fide Christian nation with 96% Christian.
jonathanjkim »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:46 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

2nd Cor 6:14- Read http://www.crivoice.org/yoked.html

You quote bible but you do not know what it means. You judge others but you yourself is worst of the sinners. Aren't you scared to judge others? I am. Especially, people that bare fruits, how do you feel alright to judge them and condemn them especially using bible? Bible that you do not understand.

Read this if you want glorious example of fine missionary work
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,932419,00.html I hope you don't think you folks invented evangelism. Jesus taught us that 2000 years ago.

Paul's message, just like that of Jesus sums up to these (1 Corinthians 13)

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

Isn't modern evangelical fundamentalists too preoccupied with tongue and prophecy?

You have no love, just filled with hatred and jealousness. Get some love. It starts by giving. Give some. I promise you will feel the heart of Jesus touching you.

God bless you and hope I can call you a bro some day.
Kenny5682 »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:51 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

All this arguing is absolutely senseless, and is the result of many not willing to pick up their Bibles and conform their way of thinking to God's. It is wrong for Christians to team up with the unsaved for the common good because the Bible says it is. (2nd Cor 6:14) There we go, argument settled. The Bible says to watch for false prophets. They will be in sheeps clothing, so they will seem like nice people. People who no longer accept the truth, but are more interested in their own lusts will heap to themselves teachers like this.. so they will have large followings. Ring a bell? Reg flag anyone? By golly, that sounds just like Rick Warren!
Chris333 »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:30 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Jonathan,

Yes Jesus ate and drank with tax collectors and sinners, but He did not accept their views, and He did not even tolerate them, if the sinners wanted to become His followers. You need to understand this. Jesus didn't say, "Come you sinners as you are, just believe and you will go to heaven" Rather He said, "Repent and sin no more" Would you call me an intolerant bigot if I were speaking with a homosexual and that person asked me if it was ok if they remained in a state of homosexuality when they become Christian, and I replied that it was not ok?

Not all Protestants were evangelical, and they certainly all are not now. The word evangelical does literally pertain to the spreading of the Gospel, but when you say evangelical relating to the "evangelical church" it has obtained a new meaning which I think is mostly captured in this definition:

"belonging to or designating the Christian churches that emphasize the teachings and authority of the Scriptures, esp. of the New Testament, in opposition to the institutional authority of the church itself, and that stress as paramount the tenet that salvation is achieved by personal conversion to faith in the atonement of Christ. "

Evangelicals primarily hold that the Bible is literally true, completely trustworthy, an actual physical resurrection, and salvation by faith in Christ alone and also a desire to spread the Good News. (Many protestants either did not always believe these things, apply them, or many that did now do not)
jonathanjkim »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:47 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

jesus4me: You like Matthew and that is funny because I love Matthew, it's my favorite book. It has detailed account of Jesus and I hope to learn from his lessons and examples so I love Matthew.

But how can you be so opposite.

Jesus drank to traitor tax collector. You will hang him.
Jesus talked to woman 5 divorced with live-in boyfriend. You will hang her.
Jesus will cuss at fundamentalist (teachers of law and pharisees.) You love them.
Jesus said to be the peace maker. You love war. Kill the Muslims.
Jesus fed the hungry. You will make sure they don't get fed if they don't believe you.
Jesus was hang by the politicians(both roman and jewish). You use politics for such purpose.

Read Matthew more. I hope you find true Christ and his heart in there and be more like him. I truly wish that nothing more or less. Instead of judging others based on your standards. (Matthew 7:1) Help others regardless of their association. You gotta keep them alive first before we preach the gospel. They are God's creatures just like me. I just got lucky. We did not earn it. I hope you were lucky too. I don't know. I don't smell Jesus off you, just Pharisee.
jonathanjkim »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:27 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

We need to clearly understand labels. Before we use it. Definition is different for many groups.

1. Evangelical - by definition, all protestants are evangelical. It was mainline church that spread the good news throughout the world. Its a mistake to claim the word "evangelical"exclusive to modern culturally contemporary church.

2. Fundamentalism - What makes someone fundamentalist is lack of tolerance for any other religion and thoughts. I did not say acceptance, just tolerance of their existence. Still proud to be a fundamentalist? In Jesus time, they would be the teachers of law and pharisees. Jesus cussed at them. Is opposite of fundamentalist a liberal, no. Jesus wasn't liberal. I think he was convervative in his approach but with conpassion. Is that conservatism same as republican? Hell no. Conservative in faith has no link to politics.
jesus4me »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:01 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

citizen wrote:

"You see, Rick Warren's Purpose Driven P.E.A.C.E Plan is nothing more than an ecumenical drive to work alongside other religions in an effort to help people, when Christ has said we are to be set apart from the world, and we are to be salt and light."

Working with people you disagree with in an attempt to help people? Getting beyond narrow dogma to do good? OH NOES! The FIEND! "

Citizen, laugh all you want; mock all you want - this is what the Bible says.

John 14:6 NKJ

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Matthew 7:13
[ The Narrow Way ] “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Matthew 7:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 7:14
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 13:24
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:23-25 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
ArchAngel Michael »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:36 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

God bless you. I am not surprised that Christianity is striving to find the perfect strategy to get people into church or into Christian social service programs and also to combine all Christian faiths together. It sounds pretty good but, I am also reminded of the verses in the bible that mention the latter day apostasy. Such an important topic for the church today but it's not even spoken of, because it will make people question a lot of the things going on today in many churches. It's bound to happen and will happen through churches who know the Truth or have known the truth but due personal or circumstantial reasons choose to go in the opposite direction of the Truth. I am seeing a lot of brainwashing techniques and hearing plenty of subtle strategic remarks, manipulation of information and emotions, to convince the church of this unity between religions, of false revivals, and to shift the church into a new paradigm of total loyalty to leaders and their church. I advice that we keep our eyes open and not go with the flow so easily. We forget that judgement will begin with the church, everyone is accountable for wise and foolish decisions and the intetions of their hearts (Proverbs 12:14). I found and awesome site providing tons of good info on how some (as in plenty of) churches are using Brainwashing strategies to run their churches. It is sad but it is true. I guess money has blinded many. The site is www.intotruth.org. I liked the Apostasy section of this and also the Transforming church studies. Very interesting stuff. I warn you, if you left your common sense outside of the church you became a Christian, than you will have a hard time measuring your leaders, your church, and yourself to the biblical standards mentioned in many of these studies. GBU!
JHS »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:34 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 3

Frankly, alot of the Southern Baptist do not like Warren, which is enough reason for me to like him all the more, I think if he pulled his church out of the Southern Baptist convention, the total I.Q of the convention would drop by 20%, most people even at his church do not know the church is southern baptist, he does not promote the SBconvention at all on his website, and frankly I do not blame him.
Topekan »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:00 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

What are the fundamentals of Christianity? Perhaps it's Christ, and Him crucified. Based on that I am willing to call myself a fundamentalist. What is the meaning of "Evangelical"? It means, essentially, "based on the Good News". What is the good news? We are separated from God by Sin. God became man and died to pay the price for our sin, thus bridging the gap between perfect God and sinful man. Therefore I am happy to be called "Evangelica". The only standard by which we as Christians can judge rightly is the Word of God. It is not a stretch to make the argument that the ECUSA operaties outside the clear requirements of scripture by having women in the pulpit, women bishops and homosexuals in the pulpit and serving as bishops.

"My conscience is captive to the Word of God. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me."
--Martin Luther
Chris333 »

Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:46 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

I. As Christians we should not mix something which is holy with that which is not holy. Nobody is calling to force others beliefs jonathan, but as Christians we must distinguish. This is what Christ did, this is what Christians must do. If you are a Christian then you follow the truth of God and you do not "unite" with secularists messages.

II. I am not sure what you were saying on this point, but we should clarify a bit. If you love someone then you tell them the truth in the best way you can. If your friend is going to drive off a cliff and doesn't believe it, you don't tell them it is best to go another way, and then if they disagree just say, "Oh well as long as you drive somewhere it will be ok!" As Christians we give the best argument we can to those willing to listen, and if they accept it, then it is by the grace of God, and if they reject then we do not have to force them. But we never compromise our message.

III. Yes we live in a fallen world, and yes we have to go out into the mess, but that does not mean that we have to be a mess ourselves. Christians do not compromise the message, and that is what the inclusive emergent so-called "church" is doing.
jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:13 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

jesus4me: Thanks for detailed-ness even though I was hoping for point to point accusation. You're blaming the world on Rick Warren as if he is mastermind to corrupt the world. hehe.. funny. Long babble is okay but point to point accusation is much easier to communicate and argue over, took me too long to figure out what you are saying.

You are accusing Rick Warren for below. You have three phase of saying stuff. Long Babble, Psychotic scream, and labeling. I don't know what those illerevant quotes from bible were. Which narrow gate did you took?

I- 1. being Pseudo Social Gospel 2. trying to unite Muslims and Christians 3. Promoting free sex all over the world. 4. promote abortions in the world 5. joining secular politicians 6. working with UN the socialist organization while feeding on Capitalism. 7. not helping Israel against Muslims. 8. Not hating Muslims when they are bombing innocent people around the world. 9. trying to unite with Universalist and New Agers.

II- You said if you love someone you make sure they believe Jesus, whatever it takes. If one believe anything other than Jesus your love will prevent that from happening even if it kills him.

III- But your true problem with Mr. Warren is 1. Inclusive Gospel 2. Emerging Church.

My Response.
I- These statements can only come from mentally unstable. Not worth my time.
II- Obiously, you believe in Theocracy. Go to Iraq you will do well building a theocratic nation. God gave us the choice. You want to take it away. Some will go to hell, you can't prevent it. You don't have to spray M16 on him. That's God's job. Let Mr. Warren feed the hungry as much as he can. He won't ask you to contribute, I'm sure.
III- I disagree with you on this about Saddleback but I do agree there is problem like this in modern church. Is Gray Black? You can sit pretty in white but when you work, you get some dirt. I don't think such strong labeling is justified at all.

Based on my reading, I categorize you as ultra-conservative evangelical fundamentalist republican. You have supported Bush and all his righteous acts and think sleeping with Huckabee will make U.S. righteous Baptist nation. But Mr. Warren is Baptist, so you must be extreme right wing of SBC that is upset at Warren for not joining you. It's a completely stupid guess but I get some right sometimes. Vote for Jesus 2008? Jesus is republican? I hear Jesus coming!!
jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:01 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

jesus4me: So what church do you go to? What denomination? Most of people like you never say what you believe and what you do about your belief. Tell me. I may learn.
Citizen »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:46 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

"You see, Rick Warren's Purpose Driven P.E.A.C.E Plan is nothing more than an ecumenical drive to work alongside other religions in an effort to help people, when Christ has said we are to be set apart from the world, and we are to be salt and light."

Working with people you disagree with in an attempt to help people? Getting beyond narrow dogma to do good? OH NOES! The FIEND!
jesus4me »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

The aberrhent doctrine I am referring to is the Emergent Church and the world wide ecumenicalism of all faiths joining together.
jesus4me »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:17 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

For more info on this abherrant doctrine - look on www.understandthetimes.org, and www.apprising.org.

1 Corinthians 1:18-25 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

Christ the Power and Wisdom of God

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”[a]

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[b] foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Footnotes:

1 Corinthians 1:19 Isaiah 29:14
1 Corinthians 1:23 NU-Text reads Gentiles.
jesus4me »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:16 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

John 14:6 NKJ

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Matthew 7:13
[ The Narrow Way ] “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Matthew 7:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 7:14
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 13:24
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:23-25 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
jesus4me »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:13 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

Continued to Jonathanjkim:

True love will not let people stay in sin. This is the problem with the social gospel. It addresses the outward appearance rathert than working hand in hand with the Biblical Gospel of Christ. When one preaches the truth of Christ, people will either accept or reject it. You first address peoples need for a Savior; then you back that up with the physical caring. It doesn't do Rick Warren any good to send millions in food and clothing for the poor, if that isn't being backed up by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You see, Rick Warren's Purpose Driven P.E.A.C.E Plan is nothing more than an ecumenical drive to work alongside other religions in an effort to help people, when Christ has said we are to be set apart from the world, and we are to be salt and light. We are in the world, but not of the world. If you as well as any born again believer believes Christ in John 14:6 as being the Way, the Truth and The Life, then no other "way" is acceptable to God. Christ is the only way. When "christian" organizations unite with the "United Nations", COEXIST Movement, Bono, Oprah, and others while claiming to be "loving" and accepting of New Age, contemplative prayer, and other mystical practices, the danger for "one world" Universalism and fake peace is all too apparent. The Scriptures encourage us to love one another, but am I really loving you if I let you follow Jesus, and new age mysticism, or believe that Jesus was just a good prophet, but not God in the flesh??????? Think about that for a while and mull on it. You wanted facts, for our criticisms of Mr. Warren, here are some facts:

1) The Inclusive Gospel : http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c66.shtml

2) The Emerging Church: Revival or Return to Darkness : http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c29.shtml

3) Rick Warren Recommends Contemplative/Emerging Conference:
http://lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=470&more=1&c=1
jesus4me »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:12 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 1

jonathanjkim wrote:

".....He is going Left? What is Left? Giving a damn about AIDS is left? Giving a damn about brothers in Rwanda bad? I call those in Rwanda brothers, learn about them. They are truly amazing brethren. I bet Rick is not only helping those but learning from them as well."

Sounds to me like you've been around some "Emergent Churches" as well with that kind of language.

No one is disputing the helping of those with AIDS. What people are disputing is Rick Warrens Pseudo Social Gospel that puts more emphasis on the "humanitarian" rather than the Gospel of Christ which saves mens souls; as well as his clear motive to unite muslims and Christians by his signing of a controversial letter. What Gospel is being preached with pumping trillions of dollars into North America, Rwanda, South America, or anywhere else to inform people on the dangers of "unprotected sex", provide them wih condoms, promote abortions in the national level as well as the international community, and promoting “safer sex practices” together with an allegiance of secular politicians, the UN which is a Socialist Organization that looks upon the malignancies of Capitalism while feeding on it, and turns it’s cheek to Israel when Muslim extremist are bombing innocent people there and around the world, Bono who is a Universalist, The COEXIST Movement, The rest of the emergent church, and Oprah Winfrey who is a self-proclaimed New Ager?????????? Those groups care nothing for the Gospel of Christ, and yet Rick Warren and other’s want to unite wit them??????
jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:44 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 2

BTW, I do disagree with Rick Warren on his comments. Declining enrollment in mainline church is not a "PROBLEM". Problem I see is 1. Evangelical movement becoming fundamentalists. And is judging others by their own standards and ready and willing to subjugate whoever is not on par with their value. It only makes Religion a tool to subjugate population under "someone's" standard. And they willingly become the dogs of the politic. 2. Focus of evangelism is not the soul but the membership enrollment. All can go to hell but the ones you are evangelizing should be saved that is the whole point of evangelism. But we are not spreading good news, we are merely selling membership to a country club which do comes with hefty price tag to its members. The price tag does not equate to rewards in heaven as they preach in their pulpit. BS. That price tag is only paying for your country club luxury. What if the church has 40 members if 90% of them go to heaven. What if the church has 20,000 members if 90% of them go to hell. Which church was more successful? Big one they say. So you be the judge. I am not suggesting that I am just making quality over quantity argument. Which is better for you?
jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:32 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

I must say. I am not a member of Saddleback Church unfortunately. I live a little too far.
jonathanjkim »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:30 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 3

Bashing require content. I know this comment section isn't big enough but do what u can to bring up content. Why? Why? not just bashing. So I can make use of your insight to enrich my judgement. I have been to Saddleback and I do not like Mega Churches but I love Saddleback. Who says Rick teaches Purpose Driven Life instead of Bible? Ridiculous. His sermons regularly is longer than 40 minutes. I have heard enough to say he speaks from bible with authority and with heart of Jesus. If you say otherwise, put up content. He is going Left? What is Left? Giving a damn about AIDS is left? Giving a damn about brothers in Rwanda bad? I call those in Rwanda brothers, learn about them. They are truly amazing brethren. I bet Rick is not only helping those but learning from them as well.
Online4Him »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:48 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 2

Let's see; The Purpose Driven Life or the Bible? Hmmmm. . . I'll stick with the Bible! The mainline churches need to get back to preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. . . . . the apostle Paul would suggest the following. . . .

And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 20:20,21
dgnymn »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:39 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 2

It doesn't matter "One Whit" what Rick Warren says, because he's lost much credibility, at least in this neck of the woods. He ought to get off his PEACE bandwagon and focus on the Gospel of Jesus Christ - Go and Make Disciples of all Nations, Jesus said, NOT set up the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.

Rick Warren...you need to get a MAJOR clue!!! Not many really care what you say!!! Just because all the clones of Saddleback get together doesn't make them better, and you're dreaming if you think the "mainline" and evangelical churches are going to hold hands together. The mainline churches, much like Saddleback is becoming, gave up the Gospel of Jesus Christ years ago.

REPENT, Rick Warren, FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!!!
onlyfoundation »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:31 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 2

Warren is drifting more and more to the left these days. As for the mainline churches, they need to get back to their roots and start preaching the Gospel again if they want to see their membership resurge.
john14-6 »

Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:05 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

Numbers have nothing to do with it. Preach the gospel of Christ crucified for the atonement of sin. Stick to the theology of the cross. Everything else will shake out if you do this. If you lose members over the "offense" of the gospel, so be it. When churches are more concerned about being left wing political machines working for "social justice" they end up twisting the gospel so badly it's usually left unrecognizable from their pulpits. (Though the same can be said for the other extreme).

There are mainline denominations like the PCA and LCMS and WELS and Southern Baptists where the gospel message is clear. Then there are denominations like the Episcopalians (American) where they are ordaining bishops who are in openly homosexual relationships. They are apostate. The United Methodists and the ELCA are well on their way to apostasy too.

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