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Church|Wed, Jan. 30 2008 03:04 PM EST

12 Pittsburgh Clergy Disapprove Quitting Episcopal Church

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

A dozen rectors and priests in the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh went public this week with their disapproval of the diocesan bishop's effort to leave the national church.

In a letter mailed to the diocese's 66 churches on Tuesday, the 12 conservative clergy said they have "determined to remain within" The Episcopal Church rather than realign out of it, according to Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

Some of the clergy met Monday with Pittsburgh Bishop Robert Duncan, who is discontent with the national church's liberal direction on Scripture and homosexuality, to inform him they will be going public.

The announcement comes after the Pittsburgh diocese overwhelmingly voted last November to leave The Episcopal Church. A second and final vote of approval for secession is expected later this year at the annual Pittsburgh convention.

While the 12 clergy who signed the recent letter oppose the ordination of openly gay clergy and conducting same-sex blessings, much like Duncan and the majority of the diocese, and say they support the reformation of the Episcopal Church, they do not believe a split is necessary.

"The bishop has made a mistake," said Father Quinn, a priest in the diocese and one of the 12 signers, according to the local Gazette. "He seems to be going in a different direction than we are."

But Bishop Duncan believes the dissenting clergy will be terribly disappointed in their line of action, said Peter Frank, a spokesman for Duncan.

"The place that the majority of the diocese is at is a different place than these priests are ending up," Frank told The Christian Post. "That's difficult where most of the Diocese of Pittsburgh say 'let's get on with ministry and not continue what has been a 30-year losing struggle to reform The Episcopal Church from within.'"

The clergy's public statement this week about was not unexpected, said Frank. The 12 - out of 180 clergy in the diocese - were part of the minority who did not favor leaving The Episcopal Church during last November's vote. Discussion with the dissenting group began last summer and the diocese has been aware of their stance, according to Frank.

Why the group went public this week has not been specified.

Duncan remains a leading conservative in The Episcopal Church and is currently heading an alliance of biblically traditional dioceses and parishes called the Anglican Communion Network. He and several breakaway and conservative bishops have begun talks to create a separate Anglican body in North America.

After decades of struggle, Duncan has expressed little hope The Episcopal Church – the U.S. branch of Anglicanism – will get back in line with traditional Anglicanism and the Bible. The Episcopal Church heightened controversy when it consecrated openly gay bishop V. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire in 2003.

Earlier this month, senior bishops in The Episcopal Church certified Duncan as having "abandoned the Communion of this Church." Episcopal Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori warned Duncan he could be banned from his office unless he draws back from his current efforts.

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  • Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    john 14-6, I suggest as Jesus did that you judge not, lest ye be judged.

  • Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:00 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    St Johns--

    I'm quite content that I understand what Jesus meant just fine. I also am quite content in the knowledge that Jesus said to listen to his words, and I do. And I am quite content that Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ and he gave direct instruction as to who would and wouldn't inherit the kingdom of God.

    Now, lest you think I'm some knuckledragging, fire-breathing, red state, redneck (and I'm being facetious, because that is the image most "liberal" Christians have of anyone who truly adheres to what the Bible actually *says*) I'll tell you that I have no issue with any homosexual person who is repentant and genuinely seeks God's forgiveness and help in overcoming it. None at all. I wouldn't care if 3/4 of my church were made up of homosexuals, provided they were repentant, celibate, and weren't trying to twist and pervert God's word, or trying to get my church to accept and validate their behavior, institute same sex weddings, etc.

    For me, it truly is about the sin and not the sinner. I'm a horrible sinner. We all are. We're all wretched creatures. But God's word is the final word. And I hold to that no matter what, and I look to Jesus Christ. Jesus said there were those that made themselves "eunuchs", and Paul said that it was good and right that some remain celibate. Jesus forgives...but sometimes that's all liberal Christianity wants to talk about...forgiveness. Well, see, they always leave out that little "last bit" that Jesus always tacks on..."go and sin no more"..."repent". So, see, Jesus does forgive, but only those who repent and have a repentant heart. So perhaps homosexuals need to see that as the challenge of their walk with God, to remain celibate. My problem isn't with a homosexual who is repentant and struggling with their sin and seeking God's forgiveness. They are my brother and I would love them the same, and treat them the same, as any other Christian.

    But you don't come into my church, or any church, living in an openly homosexual relationship, or worse, in a family situation involving children where the parents are in a same sex relationship, tell me I'm wrong, tell the church its wrong, and demand we acknowledge and accommodate you. That you don't do. That's in violation of God's word. In that case, I would speak the truth to them in love, but it would be the truth. Homosexuality, unconfessed and unrepented of, is a grave sin and has no place in God's church.

  • Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    john 14-6, and thus might Jesus not say to you as far as homosexuality is concerned that (in your own words) you are "worried too much about external appearances and adherence to a set of rules and not keeping the law in their hearts"?

  • Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You are supporting homosexuality by default. You are condemning me for speaking out against homosexuality. If you don't support it, then why are you defending it? God, Jesus and Paul give us the duty to speak out against evil and against those doctrines which lead people astray. This is not Pharisaical, it is, in fact, our Christian duty. Jesus condemnation of the Pharisees wasn't for their self-righteousness, it was because the Pharisees worried too much about external appearances and adherence to a set of rules and not keeping the law in their hearts. Speaking out against unrighteousness is not "un-Biblical" or against what Jesus taught, on the contrary we have a duty to speak the truth.

  • Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:19 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    john14-6, you are deceiving yourself if you think support for slavery depended upon a couple of verses from Paul or that groups 'twisted' Scriptures to support slavery anymore than groups might be said to be twisting Scriptures to oppose homosexuality. Slavery is mentioned in every book of the Bible, with never a word of condemnation, but with numerous verses providing regulations for the establishment of slavery. Scripture allows one to beat one's slave to death provided they survive a day or two (Ex. 21.21) and Jesus tells a Parable where slaves are beaten by their master without a word (Lk. 12.47). So I quote you your owns words "Don't tell me I'm self-righteous or misinterpreting or twisting anything. The scripture is there, and it is plain in its understanding - there is nothing about it that requires any deep exegesis to understand it - only common sense and an ability to reason." So it is clear that you are inconsistently picking and choosing Scriptures to suit your current political or moral concern like the Pharisees, that's all I am saying. I haven't said a word in support of homosexuality.

  • Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    St Johns--

    I am also reminded of these verses, which you also should take to heart:

    1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons"

    2 Timothy 4:3
    "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers"

    You are not enduring sound doctrine, you have itching ears, and you are falling under the sway of deceiving doctrine. In concern for you, I ask you to consider the scriptures and stop calling good evil and evil good.

  • Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    St Johns--

    You are wrong. Groups *twisted* scripture to find support for those things where there wasn't any. The scripture for slavery, etc, was merely Paul saying to obey the laws of society as they stood then - and it was a *secular* issue in regards to society and the state. Homosexuality is a specific act listed by Paul in a detailed iteration of deep and grave *sins* (this is of God, not the state or interactions with secular society) that he *specifically states* are sins of which the perpetrator *will not inherit the kingdom of God*. Don't tell me I'm self-righteous or misinterpreting or twisting anything. The scripture is there, and it is plain in its understanding - there is nothing about it that requires any deep exegesis to understand it - only common sense and an ability to reason.

    I would simply tell you this: if you support homosexuality, and if you believe the church should support homosexual clergy, clergy in openly homosexual relationships, or homosexual marriage, then you are lost unless you repent. There's nothing self-righteous about that statement, either. And there is nothing Pharisaical about it either: 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness".
    You are falling into this trap:

    Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good
    and good evil,
    who put darkness for light
    and light for darkness,
    who put bitter for sweet
    and sweet for bitter."

    I hope you turn from your support of something so gravely evil as homosexuality. Calling homosexuality "good" when God calls it "abomination" is putting you in a bad, bad position with God.

  • Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:46 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    john14-6, the Scriptural support for the practice of slavery, racism and oppose usury are far, far stronger than the few verses against homosexuality, and those before you made the same kind of arguments that you are making, and the same kind of self-righteous judgment and condemnation, though I know few Christians today who would support those stances today, though we retain the same Bible.

  • Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    St Johns--

    If you think homosexuality is on par or equal to slavery, racism or usury, then you are a lot farther gone than you realize. Consider what you're saying.

  • Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:32 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    John14-6, we all dance around the Scriptures and interpret them differently, picking and choosing which verses we consider important and ignoring others. This has all been argued before with the ordination of women, interracial marriage, the abolition of slavery (where Scriptural support is the strongest), with the adoption of usury, with opposition to the American Revolution against the Biblical Divine Right of Kings, with the admission of Gentiles into the Church, with Jesus overstepping the Law. Only your self-righteous prevents you from gaining the perspective of history here, and turning you into a modern day Pharisee.

  • Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I am holding on to the Levitical law about homosexuality because Paul reiterates it strongly in Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians in the New Testament. Paul clearly states that no homosexual (engaged in homosexual conduct) will inherit the kingdom of God. It doesn't get any clearer than that. Leviticus calls it an abomination and Paul lists homosexuality among things like murder, theft, etc, as a grave sin. Do I believe homosexuals can't be Christians? No, not if they repent and abstain from homosexual behavior and activity - if they remain celibate. But any homosexual who demands that the church of God accept his/her lifestyle, and not only accept it but validate it and declare it right and good, is committing a grave sin and any church that accepts such relationships or behavior and acknowledges them, is an apostate church.

    You can dance around the scriptures and try and twist it any way you like (the devil always tries to twist scripture - he was the first to say, "Did God really say...?") but the fact remains that homosexuality is abomination and has no place in any Christian church. The Episcopalian Church in America *ordained* an *openly homosexual* Bishop who is living in a sinful, homosexual relationship with another man. Their head, a woman Bishop (also against Biblical teaching - 1 Timothy and elsewhere), has defended this and upholds and supports this Bishop. I have no problem saying that, according to scripture, they are an apostate church by any measure.

  • Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    john 14-6, tell me why you insist on keeping this one levitical law of the 613 laws of the Old Testament (perhaps you keep the 10 commandments too), but that leaves 602 laws ignored, and the supposed distinction between moral and ritual laws is artificial and false, and has never been acknowledged by the Jews, for whom ALL the laws are moral, including the one that homosexuals should be stoned, do you accept that one? and so should children who are disrepectful to their parents, do you keep that one two? I haven't seen many stonings lately, suggesting you all are just picking and choosing which Scriptures you want to keep!

  • Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:28 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    feetxxl--

    The truth that was exchanged for a lie was exchanging natural relations with women for unnatural relations with men. Men and women gave up the natural order of creation for the abomination of homosexuality. So it says God "gave them up" to a reprobate mind. They received their destruction for their acts by God giving them over to their own depravity.

    Homosexuality is a violation of God's natural order. It is depraved and it is an abomination. The Bible makes this abundantly clear in numerous passages. The Episcopal Church in America has put their own law above God's law, they have exchanged God's truth for a lie (they condone and defend homosexuality, including ordaining a homosexual Bishop).

    They are apostate. Every Christian that remains in communion with that church has placed their immortal soul in peril. Every orthodox Christian should flee that denomination.

  • Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:20 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    in regards to romans 1:24 what lie was exchanged for what truth, and how was what entity of creation worshipped and served, so that certain individuals were given over to homosexuality?

  • Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:22 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "12 Pittsburgh Clergy Disapprove Quitting Episcopal Church"

    The “12 Pittsburgh Clergy” should disapprove of the unbiblical practices in the Episcopal Church before seeking reconciliation with those who left.

  • Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:11 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 3

    john14-6 said:
    Gentlemen, you had best think long and hard about your decision to remain in communion with a church that is in open and outright apostasy. They have ordained an openly homosexual Bishop, which is an extremely grave sin, and rather than repent of it, they celebrate and defend it. I don't know which Bible you're reading, but you'd best go re-read it. Start with Romans 1. The Bishop is right to seek to separate from an apostate church.
    AMEN!!

  • Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    what i find interesting is, that in the midst of the church (universal)determining what of this issue is of god, we hear nothing from the theologians. those people who have dedicated their lives to studying scripture. and theologians of differing understandings dont speak to each other. and even if they do speak they are unaccessible for any kind of questioning and dialogue

    the gospel gives a less than positive picture of the theologians of that time.

  • Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:51 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 0

    Gentlemen, you had best think long and hard about your decision to remain in communion with a church that is in open and outright apostasy. They have ordained an openly homosexual Bishop, which is an extremely grave sin, and rather than repent of it, they celebrate and defend it. I don't know which Bible you're reading, but you'd best go re-read it. Start with Romans 1. The Bishop is right to seek to separate from an apostate church.

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