The majority of Americans want a president who mirrors biblical ideals of leadership, revealed a new poll out Thursday.
About six in 10 Americans likely to vote say they would be more likely to vote for a presidential candidate who speaks publicly about following the example of admirable leaders from the Bible and who uses the Bible for guidance in both public and personal matters, found a nationwide Zogby Poll conducted for the American Bible Society.
According to the survey, more than three-quarters (78 percent) of respondents – 86 percent of women and 68 percent of men – view candidates citing Scripture when explaining political positions as positive.
Also, most Americans voters want a candidate who has a servant-leader attitude. Respondents are more likely to support a candidate who sees the office as a privilege to serve others, with a responsibility to God.
Out of the polled respondents aged 18-29, 84 percent said a candidate’s servant-leader attitude would impact their vote. Interestingly, only 62 percent of older respondents, 50-64 years old, said it would influence their decision.
In addition to Biblical leadership qualities, many likely voters are affected by the simple question of whether the candidate believes in God.
Nearly half of likely voters indicated that they would not vote for a presidential candidate who did not believe in God, while 20 percent said they would vote for such a candidate. Another 20 percent said this factor would not affect their vote
But by far, truthfulness and integrity – characteristics often emphasized in the Bible – topped the list of qualities respondents feel are most important in a leader.
The poll was conducted Jan. 25-27 on 1,008 adult respondents from throughout the United States. Nearly all respondents (95 percent) said they have some interaction with the Bible, ranging from well aware to exploring the contents of the Bible. Close to a quarter of participants said they were born-again Christians.
A Christian Web site, www.iVoteValues.org, affiliated with the Family Research Council and Focus on the Family, is helping Christians register to vote and with what to consider in choosing a candidate.
The Web site is offering a Voter Impact Toolkit that includes sermon helps, matching PowerPont presentation, Voter Resource Guide, voter registration forms, poster, and other resources to equip pastors and churches to vote their values. The pro-family Christian organizations behind the website encourage Christians to consider biblical values when voting, and pray for the election of godly leaders.
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cistonga,
There's no anger here. Just truth. You're gonna have to try a LOT harder than that to get a rise out of me. I know you were probably hoping. And I'm sorry if I came across that way. I truly am not angry. And it really does take a lot to get me angry. I've been on Christian Post for over a year, and have had more intense discussions than what you and I have had, and still have not come close to being mad.
prophet "I didn't say we agreed. Only your misled pride would say that."
you have anger issues, you should pray for yourself.
I didn't say we agreed. Only your misled pride would say that.
prophet: "OK"
OK back, we can agree...........
cistonga,
Ok.
prophet "A lame excuse"
thats exactly how I would put your posted opinions.
tgender: "agnosticism is also a faith step?
Ah, no. perhaps you dont know the meaning of agnosticism. it is not a faith as you suggest. i dont have faith in it. In a nut shell- it means I dont know and I accept life as it is on face value- it is what it is, period. Somesomes life is OK, other times not, but it is what it is! Philosophers and Theologians have been debating whether there is a god, the nature of god, the universe, etc, for centuries. They are no further in having answers now then they were 1000 years ago. In the mean time, science has taught us much about the nature of the universe. The bible and theologens have not.
"Sorry, but you do [worship science]. You think it’s the be-all, end-all—the fountainhead of all knowledge.."
get off the worship kick. I study science, My job is in science. I am interested in science, I do not worship science. I do not worship anything. Science is exciting and interesting, religion and the supernatural are very uninteresting to me. The only thing about religion that interests me is the politics of it. You obviously have no knowledge of science.
LOL.
"Cyclical". funny.
A lame excuse for "eternal".
"Science tells us that the universe is NOT eternal, so what conclusion would you draw?"
Its perhaps cyclical
citsonga-
“I am a scientist, I dont worship science”
Sorry, but you do. You think it’s the be-all, end-all—the fountainhead of all knowledge. Well, what makes you think that? Science can’t answer the big WHY questions of life.
“In all probability, when my heart stops beating, thats the end- No heaven, No hell, No problem.”
Quite a gamble you’re taking there, especially with God so clearly revealing himself.
“sorry to see you need an imaginary deity to get you thru life.”
I agree with you that following an imaginary deity certainly would be a tragic waste of time. You seem to think that all religious faith is a blind leap. That’s true for some, but not all. If the evidence is solid, then faith is warranted, in any arena of life, including belief about God. Do you realize that your atheism or agnosticism is also a faith step? And I would say that you certainly require more blind faith than a Christian.
citsonga-
"And how was God made? Wait, wait, I already know your answer, God always existed....LOL"
Not sure why you find this so funny. Logic tells us that SOMETHING must be eternal because it is nonsense for something to come from nothing. Science tells us that the universe is NOT eternal, so what conclusion would you draw?
tgender: "Go on worshiping your science god. I can tell you one thing for sure—it can’t save you and give meaning to your life. When you’re all alone in those quiet moments and you are in utter despair because of the meaninglessness and futility of your life, then know this: The God who spoke the world into existence and thereby created the scientific laws that you idolize so much will hear your cry if you come humbly before Him and repent.
i am a scientist, I dont worship science, I use the scientific method to study the world around me, thats how I make my living. I dont need the notion of a god to give my life meaning. I accept life for what it is, theres good and bad stuff in life, most of which i have no control over. There may very well be absolutely no meaning to life. I dont have a problem with that. As an agnostic, I say it is what it is, and try to get through life the best I can. Its really too bad so many religious folks waste so much time preoccupied with the hereafter- its probably a primitive instinct. I suppose its the fear of life ending at death that causes so many people to be religious. I dont really worry about that too much. In all probability, when my heart stops beating, thats the end- No heaven, No hell, No problem.
"When you’re all alone in those quiet moments and you are in utter despair because of the meaninglessness and futility of your life"
sorry to see you need an imaginary deity to get you thru life.
prophet: "What science doesn't tell you, is who made those laws of physics that our entire universe is held together by. The answer to that is God."
And how was God made? Wait, wait, I already know your answer, God always existed....LOL
This is surprising. I thought George Bush was the president that Christians wanted. He says that he follows Jesus and the bible in all his decisions, and he is supported by fundamentalists more than any other. Bush is everything that is described in the article above.
Don't all of you consider him the best president the US has ever had because of his biblical beliefs? Or is he not religious enough?
bob,
What science doesn't tell you, is who made those laws of physics that our entire universe is held together by. The answer to that is God.
Jesus said,"Suffer the little ones to come unto me for such is the Kingdom of Heaven" If anyone should cause one of these little ones of mine to SIN (abusing them) it would be better for them to put a millstone around their neck and drown themselves."
JESUS CHRIST is the best advocate anyone can have, especially children.
When a child is brought up learning that God is love and that God disciplines the ones He loves.
God is not abusive, HE disciplines and discipline tells me, I care about what you are doing, I do not want you to living a life that damages you in anyway.
I was created in His image, I am His child, and I could never have survived the things done to me, without the Lord being there. Just because God allows things, doesn't mean HE approves.
We need to be careful we do not condemn ourselves by what we approve!
One day the good LORD will split the eastern sky and then the WHOLE WORLD will not have any doubts!!! praise GOD!
bobx2x2-
"Actually scientists have figured out how planets form. It's a natural process."
Really? Wow! They've figured out how all those chemicals popped into existence out of nothing from natural processes? I didn't see that on the news.
"The God who spoke the world into existence"
Actually scientists have figured out how planets form. It's a natural process. Look it up if you're interested in reality.
First let me say: Teaching children the love of God and how to walk in His truth is not child abuse.
I grew up in very abusive foster homes and I know first hand what true abuse is! I went through mental, emotional, physical abuse, and spiritual!!
I never knew the love of God, I new abuse at the hands of foster parents, one claimed to be a "Christian" and one was not. A divided house to be sure!
What I have learned in my 51 years is that a relationship with God (Jesus Christ) is not a religion!!!!
Many claim to be "Christians" but God's Word states that our actions have to model our words.
Many will come in His name and say, "didn't we prophesy in Your Name; didn't we do many miracles, in Your Name, and He will say, apart from me, I never KNEW you!
It isn't enough to know about Him, demons and Satan know about Him,but they do not Worship Him or OBEY Him.
When we OBEY His commandments and walk in the LIGHT as HE is in the LIGHT then we know we have fellowship with HIM!
For those who do not accept of believe God's Word; that is your choice; and I will tell you, I did not always believe either.
I am HIS living witness that HE is alive and HE is REAL and HE is GLORIOUS!
I was in the gutters of this world; broken and dead; at the hands of PEOPLE, and the true miracle of all is that JESUS died for all of this world, even for those who will never accept what HE has done for them personally!
Praise and all glory to our great God, for HIS mercy endures forever.
HE taught me Himself about LOVE and unconditional love has no bounds. HE doesn't want children or anyone else FORCED to follow Him or love Him, it's why HE gave every human a choice! No other creature has this; only man made in HIS IMAGE; we are GOD BREATHED
and yet that very creation has turned it's back on their CREATOR!
Glory to God in the Highest!
God's blessings to you Prophet and all those who truly walk in obedience and trust with our Lord Jesus Christ! HE has lifted my life up from THE PIT OF HADES and HE is restoring my family, a family that was beyond fractured. HE IS a most loving Father!
The proof is in a CHANGED LIFE: and HE most certainly changed my life!!! Thankyou God!
bobx2x2-
Go on worshiping your science god. I can tell you one thing for sure—it can’t save you and give meaning to your life. When you’re all alone in those quiet moments and you are in utter despair because of the meaninglessness and futility of your life, then know this: The God who spoke the world into existence and thereby created the scientific laws that you idolize so much will hear your cry if you come humbly before Him and repent.
“The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” (Romans 1:18-23)
"I have concluded that the evidence for Christianity far outweighs that of any other religion."
Big deal. How about comparing Christianity to science. Scientific facts have real evidence. The Christians beliefs have only the fairy tales in the Bible and the wishful thinking of gullible people. Science makes the world a better place to live in, while Christianity does nothing but get in the way.
citsonga-
“Your genetic make-up has developed your brain in a manner allows you to have a faith that makes sense to you.”
Pardon me if I disagree, but this is not quite right. Your senses allow you to perceive the world around you and your mind allows you to analyze and understand those perceptions. You form beliefs based on what you think is true. You put your faith (active trust) in those things that you have sufficient confidence in based on evidence. Faith in God can be rational or irrational depending on what evidence you are relying on. I have concluded that the evidence for Christianity far outweighs that of any other religion.
Even though you are currently skeptical and religious faith makes no sense to you, I encourage you to seriously investigate the truth claims of Christianity. I think you will find them to be reliable and that faith in Christ is not only warranted and rational, but life changing because it gives you purpose, meaning, joy, peace, and hope.
citsonga-
Maybe these arguments have been used for centuries because they’re good arguments. I noticed that you did not address the argument. Why? If your view is true that naturalism is true, then you should be able to disprove the argument I provided. BTW, this particular argument is not really intended to say anything about the nature of the universe. It intends to explain how the universe came into being. That’s pretty important, right?
tgender: "Because of the magnitude and complexity of the universe, God must be very powerful and wise."
You mean because you know nothing about science, you think everything was magically created.
Slacker said to "He Who Thinks": "The evidence is there however you are just blinded by your own sin to see it clearly..."
What was his "sin"? Thinking? Is it a sin to think?
To He Who Thinks:
"in this day and age, if you can show me when, where, and how beyond a reasonable doubt, i'll vote republican the rest of my life. "
No you wouldn't because the evidence is there and you still don't believe. I hear the same basic argument in different forms, "show me the evidence that God exist and I will believe", The evidence is there however you are just blinded by your own sin to see it clearly...
To Ebc:
There may be an afterlife or there may not be, Citasong is atleast willing to admit he doesn't know, you on the other hand says that it is illogical and idotic to believe in one, atleast be willing to accept your own limitations instead of browbeating someone because they believe something you don't. I would recommend to you that you look in the mirror the next time you term any one of faith in a negative canotation such as "hate monger" or the like because by what you said, i only see you as the "hate monger"... I agree with chris333, I may not agree with citasong but atleast i do respect him for his comments....
Chris333: "Atheism however is always illogical, and always irrational, as it asserts a negative."
If somebody asserts there's no tooth fairy, is he being illogical and irrational?
tgender:
" don’t understand this at all. How can faith be inherited genetically?"
Your genetic make-up has developed your brain in a manner allows you to have a faith that makes sense to you. My brain does not allow for that. I am, by nature, a skeptic. i guess thats why i am a scientist, not a theologan. Religious faith makes no sense to me, and at my age, i see little chance of that happening . If it works for you, great. It doesn't work for me.
tgender:
"There is a mountain of evidence to consider, but I’ll start at the beginning. Here is my first argument:
1. Everything that begins to exist requires a cause.
2. The universe began to exist, which includes all matter, time, and energy.
3. Therefore, the universe had a cause which was immaterial and timeless.
4. This cause must be an eternal “First Cause” because an infinite regression of causes is impossible.
5. This Cause fits the traditional definition of God, so God exists.
6. Because of the magnitude and complexity of the universe, God must be very powerful and wise."
These are the same arguments made by theologans for centuries. They say nothing of the nature of the universe. Science is the key to discovering the nature of the universe, not theology and philosophy. Same "logic" was used to describe the earth as stationary and the center of the universe, I believe science has demonstrated that not to be the case.
nemjbs: "I am shocked to see the high number of born again Christians that support Obama"
perhaps you would prefer 4 more years of the war mongering bush so that he can turn the US war machine on yet another country. Is that what the good christians on these posts want?
I am shocked to see the high number of born again Christians that support Obama. Obama says he is a Christian and has attended Trinity United Church in Chicago for twenty years. Obama credits the senior minister Rev, Jeremiah Wright with leading him to Christ and says Rev. Wright is his spiritual advisor. The church has a magazine The Trumpet and last year it awarded The Rev. Jeremiah Wright Trumpeter Award to a man it said "truly epoiomized greatness." That man is Louis Farrakhan. Recently Obama has made many references to people in the Bible, but I have to wonder what is being preached at his church when his minister so greatly recognizes the Leader of the Nation of Islam. I have to look at what one does and not what one says. Twenty years of lfollowing someone in the pulpit mean more than a few candidate speeches. What do we really know about Obamas faith? I think we have to look to where he has spent the last twenty years. Check out the churcs website http://www.tucc.org/about.htm
I do not want my President seeking spiritual counsel from someone who thinks that Louis Farrakhan is a "truly great man."
He Who Thinks-
There is a mountain of evidence to consider, but I’ll start at the beginning. Here is my first argument:
1. Everything that begins to exist requires a cause.
2. The universe began to exist, which includes all matter, time, and energy.
3. Therefore, the universe had a cause which was immaterial and timeless.
4. This cause must be an eternal “First Cause” because an infinite regression of causes is impossible.
5. This Cause fits the traditional definition of God, so God exists.
6. Because of the magnitude and complexity of the universe, God must be very powerful and wise.
He Who Thinks-
“Just goes to show that, truly, religion has become too influential in our secular government and politics.”
You’re being naïve if you think atheism/secularism is not a “religion” because it is just as much a religion as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. There’s no such thing as neutrality regarding the kinds of questions that religion (or worldview) tries to answer. These questions include whether or not God exists, what kind of God exists, where/how did everything come from, what happens after we die, where do we get morality from, what is moral, how should we live, why is there evil and suffering, etc. Atheists have answers to each one of these questions and they very clearly affect their public policies and actions, just like it does Christians. All this talk about keeping morality and religion out of government is a smokescreen to avoid the real issue about what the right answers are to these questions.
Dean77- Just because some one is a Creationist doesn't mean they have God's mind on all the issues. Romney was the best choice out of the remaining candidates but Christians were to prejudice and ignorant of the issues to vote for the best candidate.
Just goes to show that, truly, religion has become too influential in our secular government and politics. I despise any and all evangelical, pious cowards who hide behind God and pervert religion to further political agendas, and values voters are the worst lot because in this country where religious freedom is for ALL religion and creeds and a government that, under law of the First Amendment of the Constitution, are not allowed to endorse any one religion, no matter how heavenly Jesus Christ may be. Sorry to all the bible belt, but you've been breaking the law for too long and it's a shame the huckabee's and pat richardson's and ernest angley's haven't been arrested for misguiding true christians with their insane, somewhat hilarious practices. Huckabee straight up said "I want to put God in the Constitution." Well, I want to be a professional baseball player and win the world series every single year i play professionally, but it won't happen, just like a jesus freak like huckabee won't get elected. And shouldn't get elected. When has religion and politics ever mixed well? Does anyone recall the Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? The Holocaust? I know i'm missing other prime examples. And don't tell me God influenced the Civil Rights movement and inspired George Bush to be the President of the United States because that's just insane. The Civil Rights movement was inspired by people sick of oppression and injustice and figured hey, now's as good a time as any. And George Bush needs to find religion because after i heard him say on an interview a couple years ago that he felt God called him to the presidency, i wanted to jump through the television, slap him on the face, and say "that's ten hail mary's for lying to the American People, again!"
Tgender-
“Sure, there maybe an afterlife, then again there may not be one. I have no way of knowing.”
This is just plain wrong. If God exists and He is concerned with His creation, then it would be reasonable for us to think that He has revealed Himself to us. Indeed, we find this to be true for He has revealed Himself in creation, in His Word, and in His Son Jesus Christ. I’d be happy to share why I believe this to be so if you are interested."
in this day and age, if you can show me when, where, and how beyond a reasonable doubt, i'll vote republican the rest of my life.
Geez...where's Perot when you need him?
Just because some one is a Creationist doesn't mean they have God's mind on all the issues. Romney was the best choice out of the remaining candidates but Christians were to prejudice and ignorant of the issues to vote for the best candidate.
citsonga-
“You may be genetically predisposed to have a religious faith (I believe religious belief like patriotism may be related to genetics). I think I do not have those genes.”
I don’t understand this at all. How can faith be inherited genetically? Faith is placing personal trust in something. It’s a matter of what one believes (and why) and then acting on that belief. I would acknowledge that beliefs can be culturally based (although they can be wrong), but beliefs are not genetically based. No matter how one acquires beliefs, they can be abandoned if found to be wrong.
“Sure, there maybe an afterlife, then again there may not be one. I have no way of knowing.”
This is just plain wrong. If God exists and He is concerned with His creation, then it would be reasonable for us to think that He has revealed Himself to us. Indeed, we find this to be true for He has revealed Himself in creation, in His Word, and in His Son Jesus Christ. I’d be happy to share why I believe this to be so if you are interested.
One thing I do find quite funny ebc, you seem to be so obsessed with "disproving" (I use that word extremely liberally in this case) something which you believe does not even exist.
ebc, it has become amuzing to watch how many times and how many ways you can vary your self-defeating argument.
Agnosticism is not sucking up to Christians, it is a logical, and possibly rational belief system, depending on the information you have. Atheism however is always illogical, and always irrational, as it asserts a negative. Though I disagree with much of what citsonga says, I can at least respect his position.
citsonga: "Sure, there maybe an afterlife, then again there may not be one. I have no way of knowing (hence agnostic)."
This is called sucking up to Christians.
Do you seriously believe it's possible a soul flies up to heaven after a human ape drops dead? That's the most idiotic fairy tale ever invented, and it's totally nuts to say "there may be an afterlife".
cistonga,
I see you caught my little play on words. I did that tongue in cheek though. You said you'll worry about the afterlife when the time comes. But if the Word of God is true, then at that time it will be too late. Hence, my statement "you have more to lose than I do".
I would love to chat more with you, but there are some heave personal/spiritual situations I need to take care of. Hopefully, we can talk again soon.
Prophet: " I believe in Christianity, you believe in Antagonism"
Its not Antagonism, its Agnosticism, and its not a belief it is a philosophical view that the truth of certain claims, particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of God, gods, deities is unknown or, inherently unknowable.
You may be genetically predisposed to have a religious faith (I believe religious belief like patriotism may be related to genetics). I think I do not have those genes. I cannot relate to the notion of faith, its makes little sense to me. Sure, there maybe an afterlife, then again there may not be one. I have no way of knowing (hence agnostic). I only know what I can see in this world. I will worry about an afterlife if that time comes. The notion Christians have that one will go to hell if one doesn't "believe" seems to me, absurd.
citsonga,
And that goes back to my previous post. Therein lies the conundrum. I believe in Christianity, you believe in Antagonism, and one day we will discover who's right. And you have more to lose than I do.
But aside from that, my faith in God has been reinforced by the works and miracles that God has performed in my life, my family's life, and in many other Christian's lives. That is why I have faced the facts and found them in favor of God.
Prophet "I did grow up and face the facts. The facts pointed overwhelmingly in favor of God and His Holy Word."
I did grow up and face the facts. The facts pointed overwhelmingly in favor of Agnosticism.
I did grow up and face the facts. The facts pointed overwhelmingly in favor of God and His Holy Word.
As I said, children watch what their parents do. They also listen to the way they talk. And when they see and hear their parents talk and act a certain way, they pick up on it, and it becomes their character. A 3 year old can no more understand the ways of God than the ways of politics. But by being raised over time in that environment, their conscience and character is molded into the image of their parents. Now, as with Christian children, they day will come when they will be old enough to decide on their own, by what was taught and shown, and by what other outside influences (friends, other non-Christian family, social networks, etc), what it is they believe. I have known numerous kids who grew up in Christian homes, that are, as adults, non-Christians. So much for your "brainwashing" theory. And that doesn't take into account the number of people who grew up only hearing the word "God" as a cuss word, much less even stepped foot inside a church, who are now Christians. Trash haulers, truck drivers, teachers, sports figures, scientists, doctors, etc...people from all walks of life who have chosen God. And many of them grew up in non-Christian homes. Again, so much for your "brainwashing" theory.
"And you die without God. What have you lost? Everything. Eternity."
That kind of breathtaking stupidity might work on a small child, but you got to be crazy if you think an adult could believe your disgusting threats. There no magic man living in the clouds. For goodness sake grow up and face facts.
I said earlier that if Christians waited for their children to grow up before brainwashing them with Christian insanity, they would never believe it. Only gullible children, willing to believe any nonsense if it comes from their parents, could believe the idiocy of the Resurrection and the other repulsive Christian myths. It's disgusting immoral child abuse.
"Republicans train up republicans. Democrats train up democrats."
That's baloney and you know it. Parents don't push their politics on 3 year olds, but Christians push their Jesus on 2 year olds. It's child abuse, it's immoral, and it's disgusting.
ebcdic,
Everyone "brainwashes" their kids to grow up believing the way they do. Republicans train up republicans. Democrats train up democrats. Drug users train up drug users. Alcoholics train up alcoholics. Athiests train up athiests.
You see, "brainwashing" is more than just telling your child how to believe. It's showing them how to believe. Living the life. And though a chronic drug user will continually try to dissuade their children from taking part in that type of lifestyle, their children listen to the bigger voice, which is the actions of their parents. Children will always do as their parents do, not what they say. So, by merely having children you are brainwashing them. You say that "brainwashing" my children to believe in God is wrong. I say that "brainwashing" your children to not believe in God is wrong. Therein lies the conundrum. One of us is right, and one is wrong...and one day we BOTH will know.
But that old saying still rings true.
ILet's say that you are right, and there is no God. I have spent my life loving people, treating them with respect, trying to make this world a better place, served my community and fellow man, gave to the needy, etc. And I die...and that's it. Tell me what I have lost? Not a thing.
Now let's say that I'm right. That God is real, and the Bible is true. And there is a heaven and a hell. And you have not accepted that fact. And you die without God. What have you lost? Everything. Eternity.
But, I know that this falls on deaf ears. I've learned to accept it. I would rather live for something greater than myself. And, that, I do.
agentorange,
I would love to quibble with you about stuff you do not understand, nor ever will, in order to stroke your ever growing ego. But I will say this...there is a difference between ceasing from sin, and ceasing from practicing sin. Study it out.
Christians know if they let their children grow up to old enough to think for themselves before teaching them about the insanity of Christianity, their sons and daughters will never believe it. That's why the brainwashing begins before they learn how to walk. This is nothing less than child abuse, and nothing could be more immoral.
"But many who were taught about Jesus grow up to realize that He's real."
It depends on the intensity of their brainwashing and it depends on their intelligence. If the brainwashing is too intense, even the most intelligent child may not recover from the constant lying.
”What you have, is what most non-Christians have. That is a view that all Christians are to be perfect and sinless.”
Not to sound too rude Prophet, but that is exactly what most Christians do. They talk a big game, but many of them in fact don’t even attempt to follow the scriptures at all. These and others (like Ted Haggard for instance) are the same folk that swear up and down that all non-Christians are vile and corrupted and yet their track record is just as bad if not worse. And for them to somehow claim they are saved simply b/c they believe in ‘X’ god is beyond horrid logic. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
“And one thing I've learned too, is this: "A "bad" Christian is not a true Christian." Whether you think it's a cop out or not, does not change the truth.”
Total cop out. Earlier you stated the following:
“What you have, is what most non-Christians have. That is a view that all Christians are to be perfect and sinless”
Prophet, the reason why this perception exists that Christians are to be ‘Polly perfect’ and that they can’t do wrong is b/c they continually profess this higher sense of morality. But when they are caught with their hands in the cookie jar many Christians (like you) either do 1) say they’re only human and we all sin and make mistakes, or rationalize it in an attempt to justify it. If it’s something generally more horrid 2) they decry that this person just can’t be a real Christian.
You implied that all Christians can’t be perfect or ‘sin’less, but just above you right it off by decrying that ‘bad’ Christians aren’t true Christians either. So which is it? Are bad Christians still Christian, or do all Christians engage in sin as you stated earlier and are they ALL therefore still Christian?
Where is the defining line where a former Christian is no longer a Christian in your view? The catholic clergy has a good way of defining it and it’s called excommunication, and non of the Nazi’s (even Hitler) were ever excommunicated for their horrid acts.
And one thing I've learned too, is this: "A "bad" Christian is not a true Christian." Whether you think it's a cop out or not, does not change the truth. If I ran out onto the football field with the NY Giants and started throwing the ball to all their recievers, does that make me a quarterback? No. They didn't draft me. They don't want me. Even better yet, lets say that a football team drafts a Heisman Trophy winning quarterback. Top notch. He goes around bragging that he's the quarterback for such and such a team. But, yet, he rarely shows up for practice....maybe once or twice. And during the games, he just slacks off, doesn't even try, talks smack to his coach and teammates, screws around. But yet, he still brags about being the quarterback. Is he truly a quarterback? He may be one in name, but not in action.
That's the same way Christians are. There are many who brag about being a Christian, but they slack off, screw around, gossip, talk trash about God and other Christians without cause, and yet still claim to be a Christian.
So, yes, not eveyone who claims to be a Christian, really are. They are false Christians. They are religious.
ebcdic,
What you have, is what most non-Christians have. That is a view that all Christians are to be perfect and sinless. But since you know nothing about Christianity nor the scriptures, I will let you continue in your misguided fantasy.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "Christians are constantly lying to their own children about science and about Jesus." All I know is that I teach what the Bible says. And since the Bible speaks the truth about Jesus, I know that I am teaching the truth. But it's funny that you talk about teaching the truth. Do you have children? Do you encourage, and even promote the idea of Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny to your young children? Then you are no better.
Yeah, I know...I know...they'll grow out of that phase as they get older. But, then again, that's what separates Christianity and Santa. People/kids gorw up to realize that Santa is fake. But many who were taught about Jesus grow up to realize that He's real. They understand the difference between fable and truth.
I am a third generation Christian. I am not a Christian because my father, and grandfather were. They merely taught me what they believed. When I became old enought to intellectually discern the course of my life, I took time to evaluate my beliefs. I looked at the pros and cons. Weighed the arguments for both sides. I even lived a "non-Christian" lifestyle for a time. I finally came to the conclusion, on my own, that God and His Word were real.
Prophet: "a true Christian (Abe Lincoln)"
Abe Lincoln was a true Christian? That's wishful thinking. Unlike the thousands of slave owners who lived back then, Lincoln had a very low opinion of Christianity.
Nelson: Same Opinion as Ingersoll
"In religion, Mr. Lincoln was about of the same opinion as Bob Ingersoll, and there is no account of his ever having changed. He went to church a few times with his family while he was President, but so far as I have been able to find out, he remained an unbeliever. Mr. Lincoln in his younger days wrote a book, in which he endeavored to prove the fallacy of the plan of salvation and the divinity of Christ."
-- Judge James M Nelson, who had an intimate acquaintance with Lincoln in Washington, in the Louisville Times, in 1887, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beleifs of Our Presidents, p. 137
For more information about Lincoln and what he thought about Christianity, see this website:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/lincoln.htm
Prophet: "There is a difference between calling yourself a christian (such as slave owners) and being a Christian."
I hear this a lot. "Bad Christians are not really true Christians." Well there sure must not be very many true Christians because just about every Christian I have ever met couldn't be more immoral. The immorality I'm talking about isn't just about slavery or pogroms or yelling at science teachers or not respecting the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Christians are constantly lying to their own children about science and about Jesus. Perhaps they don't realize how dishonest they are, but there can be no excuse for lying to children, and nothing could be more immoral.
True, slavery was encouraged by "christians", but it took a true Christian (Abe Lincoln) to bring forth the truth and set the wheels in motion to bring freedom. There is a difference between calling yourself a christian (such as slave owners) and being a Christian. There's a man in Africa who is kidnapping children, brainwashing them, teaching them how to use weapons, and making them kill their own parents....all in the name of God. If you seriously believe that he is a man of God, you've got a few screws loose. I could go out and kill a bunch of people in the name of my friend Jeff, but it doesn't mean that Jeff is a bad person, nor everyone that hangs around him. There are factions of loonies in just about every religion. And people spend more time pointing out the misled christians, then the myriads of others who are true, God-fearing, people-loving Christians.
If you want to know the truth, there are probably just as many people who have died due to political reasons as religious. All the wars of the 20th century were political. They had nothing to do with religion. The civil war, the revolutionary war, the Gulf war, Iraq, etc, etc,....all political. So, I think we should get rid of politics, just as you want to get rid of those darned religious nuts.
This ABC news article is very on-topic. I also recommend the reader's comments.
Putting Candidates' Religion to the Test
http://tinyurl.com/2zzv8u
holito8 "Christian haven't been doing a thing to keep the nation together. I know lets be like Russia....oops. Russia couldn't stay together as one nation without God."
It interesting that you suggest that Russia (I believe you meant the USSR) couldn't stay together without God. Prior to the Russian Revolution , the Russia Empire had a state religion- that of Russian Orthodox Christianity. Its head being the Czar. The Russian people were by and large very devout Christians as were members of the Royal family. Your post suggests that a devout Christian country would be held together. Yet Czarist Russia, a so-called Christian nation of God, was overthrown by the Bolsheviks. This seems antithetical to your argument.
slacker "it was the Secular American government that allowed Slavery to persist"
Actually Christians used quotations from the Bible to help justify the enslavement of Africans. The vast majority of slave owners in America considered themselves God fearing Christians.
Here are some of the Biblical quotations used to justify slavery,
From Exodus 20:2–17 where Ten Commandments are found:
But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.
You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
Looks like its OK to own slaves. just dont covet your neighbor's- get your own I suppose. AND its OK to own slaves, but let them rest on the seventh day.
I will now paraphrase part of your post:
"have you ever researched the history of the Bible or do you like to make this stuff up as you go along"
Slacker: "it was the Secular American government that allowed Slavery to persist"
It was Christian slave owners who used the Bible to justify their barbarity.
Hahahaha. You are so funny. Hahahaha!!!!
After reading through the postings on this topic, it is obvious that no single candidate, and perhaps no two candidates would begin to satisfy all of the 34,000 sects and denominations of Christianity. You know what? The Christian right-wing is going to be shut out of this election, and it's about time!
Shutting God out of an election. Hahahahaha!!! Don't quit your day job.
See dark ages, see inquisition, see Salem witch trials, see fear, see ignorance. The only thing I'm "terrified" of is Christian intolerance and bigotry. If you would like to live under a theocracy, move your butt to Iran, they would love to show you how tolerant a religious society can be.
Excellent. The state of America is fine presently. Christian haven't been doing a thing to keep the nation together. I know lets be like Russia....oops. Russia couldn't stay together as one nation without God.
to citasong and hampstead pete,
"Yeah, its really too bad America cant go back to the good ole "moral" days when mass extermination of the American Indian was being carried out by white christian's, africans were enslaved and woman could not vote. Yeah americans were really moral back then.....LOL"
to comment on this quote, have you people ever researched the history of the US or do you like to make this stuff up as you go along... I mean really it is bad enough our education system promotes underage sexual encounters, but i would expect them to educate people now adays... First off, it was the Secular american government that allowed the "extermination" as you put it of the american indian, it was the Secular American government that allowed Slavery to persist, it was the SECULAR american government that refused women the right to vote. Do not blame christians for this, it really shows what kind of person you are when you use mass STEREOTYPING to back up your argument and then have the audacity to call us bigoted and intolerant... There is a difference between intolerance and acceptance, look it up in the dictionary.
Just what I would have expected. No intelligent response, so we get whatever nonsense comes to mind. I will pray for you to see the truth someday. God Bless.
John5796 "Exactly what is needed in this toilet bowl society we have created. Of course the ones who would lose their "right" to live like immoral pigs are terrified at the thought of it. Some of you posters here ought to look in the mirror and see what exactly what your standing up for. What is happening in this society now as opposed to 100 years ago? The 'list' would be an awful reminder of what a lack of God and morality does to a nation. "
Yeah, its really too bad America cant go back to the good ole "moral" days when mass extermination of the American Indian was being carried out by white christian's, africans were enslaved and woman could not vote. Yeah americans were really moral back then.....LOL
May I suggest you move to the autocratic-theocracy of Saudi Arabia. They have religion-morality police that go around keeping everyone in line. You would really like this- Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world where it is illegal for a female to drive a car. If a person does something "immoral" they get locked up or stoned to death. Sounds like a great place for you.
"Someone below commented: "Huckabee would bring America closer to a theocracy"
Exactly what is needed in this toilet bowl society we have created. Of course the ones who would lose their "right" to live like immoral pigs are terrified at the thought of it."
See dark ages, see inquisition, see Salem witch trials, see fear, see ignorance. The only thing I'm "terrified" of is Christian intolerance and bigotry. If you would like to live under a theocracy, move your butt to Iran, they would love to show you how tolerant a religious society can be.
Don't ever forget that the biggest single group who supported church-state separation in the first amendment were evangelical Christians. Why? They were terrified that one of the larger theological bodies would be declared a "state religion."
Face it, you could never get two Christians to agree on what form a theocracy should take, or who you should hate first.
Someone below commented: "Huckabee would bring America closer to a theocracy"
Exactly what is needed in this toilet bowl society we have created. Of course the ones who would lose their "right" to live like immoral pigs are terrified at the thought of it. Some of you posters here ought to look in the mirror and see what exactly what your standing up for. What is happening in this society now as opposed to 100 years ago? The 'list' would be an awful reminder of what a lack of God and morality does to a nation.
Alrighty then, its superbowl Sunday! It is also your chance to have a HUCKABOWL party with your friends and family. A great way to help support Huckabee. To learn more check out
http://huckabowl.com/
After reading through the postings on this topic, it is obvious that no single candidate, and perhaps no two candidates would begin to satisfy all of the 34,000 sects and denominations of Christianity. You know what? The Christian right-wing is going to be shut out of this election, and it's about time!
Since there will not be a nominee that all of you can agree on, I STRONGLY suggest you draft some jerk (perhaps Huck), to run as a third-party. Don't you think that's a great idea? If not, why don't you all move to South Carolina and declare it Jesusland. Isn't there a bunch of you that already wants to do that anyway?
BoldEvangelical
"Bush because he is an unashamed Christian."
Invasion, destruction and death of Iraq.. Is that what a christian does. Thats what bush has achieved. I find it interesting that the christains I know all advocated the invasion of Iraq. The atheist and agnostics I know were all opposed- on moral grounds. Hmmm, I find that interesting.
BoldEvangelical
"Mike Huckabee! Southern Baptist minister. Believes in Biblical creation, fears God more than the GOP, defends sanctity of life, defends marriage. A Christian brother we can support who will lead America back to righteousness. "
Huckabee would bring America closer to a theocracy. Very fortunately, he has no chance of becoming president. The Honorable Senator Obama is who we need to unite the USA and keep it a country for all the people-religious, agnostics, atheist, gays, whites, blacks, yellows and browns.
KEEP RELIGION OUT OF SCHOOL, GOVERNMENT, COURTS. Thats how we avoid civil war and anarchy.
Remember, Satan believes in God... He doesn't worship him, however. Saying you believe in God does not make you a Christian. You have to accept Christ as your Savior and then you will be able to claim to be a Christian. When you are a Christian, your personal life will show it and you will be unafraid to say and do what is right. Ron Paul seems to be the only candidate who is not afraid to say what he believes in. The others speak the words they think the voters want to hear...not what they personally believe to be right. God help this country before it is completely lost to corrupt and lying leaders. Our families are being ripped apart by "it takes a village" and our children are being removed WITHOUT PROOF of abuse or neglect. Being poor is not a crime but social workers use "It is in the child's best interest to be adopted by a young, WEALTHY family." God gave us our children but the government steals them. There is too much corruption in our government and if that doesn't change, America will be lost and destroyed from within.
"McCain and Romney have both called each other a 'liberal'," said RoeGone.org spokesperson Sharon Blakeney. "The truth of the matter is that they're both right and these ads prove it."
"McCain not only favors funding medical experiments on human embryos that destroy their lives, he was one of only seven Republicans to vote against the Marriage Protection Amendment," added Blakeney.
"He then sued Wisconsin Right to Life because they had the audacity to suggest that their members contact their Congressional Representatives during the McCain-Feingold 'no free speech zone' prior to an election."
Here is the transcript of the new television ad on Senator McCain:
Three critical issues: Protecting life. Protecting Free Speech. Protecting marriage.
Senator John McCain favors forcing taxpayers to fund embryonic stem cell research, which the National Right to Life Committee says: "requires killing human embryos."
McCain violated our Free Speech rights with the notorious McCain-Feingold Act, and personally sued Wisconsin Right to Life for communicating with their members prior to an election.
John McCain is one of only seven Republican senators who voted against the Marriage Protection Amendment supported by President Bush.
The homosexual Log Cabin Republicans call him a "Republican hero" for gays and lesbians.
And no wonder…
Chris Matthews asked: "Should gay marriage be allowed?"
McCain: "I think that gay marriage should be allowed if there's a ceremony kind of thing if you want to call it that."
George Stephanopolous asked: "Are you against civil unions for gay couples?"
McCain: "No, I am not."
John McCain: Against protecting life. Against protecting free speech. Against protecting marriage.
kaishin
i could not have said it any better. a supposed believer who for seven years allowed his adminisration to be directed by a man who used very low life means availble to consolidate power. then there.s jimmy carter, definitely a believer, but you would never have known it by the paranoia that controlled his administration.
i am appalled by the ignorance that is not only supported but encouraged by the christian culture in this country. a culture that presumes they are of christ but in their theocratic and political leanings, they are anything but. when will they realize that it is thru the spirit we serve of and are led by and not thru those cultural beliefs.
What Church is Mr. Hucksterbee a pastor of? why did he make the the Judicial Watch top 10 most Corrupt politicians list for 2007 http://judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-announces-list-washington-s-ten-most-wanted-corrupt-politicians-2007 , did he really only spend 2 days in the seminary he said, he graduated from?? How much money did he allocate to planned parenthood for abortions when hw was Govenor of Arkansas??? You need to know the Answers , You need to seek the Truth; Wake up , WWW.SAVEAMERICANOW.COM & WWW.PRAYFORPAUL.COM & WWW.RONPAUL2008.COM God Bless You all ! In the name of Yeshua, Christ our Lord !
Sure any candidate will tell you they are "Christian", but ask if they believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, 100% accurate, and applicable to modern life, and you are liable to get a much different answer, or better yet a rhetorical dodge that doesnt answer.
What puzzles me is that the REAL issues facing American Christians are nowhere to be found. What about our civil liberties and freedoms? What about the wholesale exportation of our jobs? Socialized medicine is a horrendous threat to our freedom, and buys into the philosophy that the government can solve all of our problems. Goodbye privacy, hello big brother government. Christian parents: beware of Hillary! "It takes a village" and "there is no such thing as other people's kids"... i.e. your kids aren't yours they are the state's, and you have no right to teach them or raise them how you see fit.
kaishinden79, you are young and believe far too much put out by the mainstream media. The liberal press and network news talking heads, including CNN, are a bunch of secular humanist liberal God haters who bash Bush because he is an unashamed Christian. You should get your facts straight before casting stones at your brother in Christ.
Mike Huckabee! Southern Baptist minister. Believes in Biblical creation, fears God more than the GOP, defends sanctity of life, defends marriage. A Christian brother we can support who will lead America back to righteousness. www.mikehuckabee.com
Look at where it got this country when 60% of american thought that this president is guided by the bible. is this president practicing what the bible talk about responsiblity, accountability, humility, wisdom. hmm...from 2000 - 2008, love of money was used to guide this president instead of love of god; arrogance instead of humility, false witness against thy neighbor instead of wisdom; & labelling those who are against his policies. and finally, professing to be a christian in order to get the votes of those who blindly followed him.