Correction appended
Change for a man wrestling with homosexual attractions is not only possible but the pursuit of change can also be a positive experience, a recent survey shows.
The survey by People Can Change, a non-profit and non-religious organization that offers training, healing and support for men with unwanted same-sex feelings, revealed that 9 out of 10 men who participated in a weekend program reported a decrease in distress, shame and self-condemnation. They also felt better about themselves.
People Can Change founder Rich Wyler calls it an "incredibly vital" finding, especially at a time when psychologists, gay rights groups and other critics of ex-gay programs contend that the process of change out of homosexual attractions is harmful.
The organization surveyed men from across the country who participated in a program called "Journey Into Manhood" – a 48-hour intensive personal-growth and self-discovery weekend for men serious about resolving unwanted homosexual feelings – between January 2002 and December 2006. They were surveyed mid-2007, which was anywhere between six months and six years after the men experienced the Journey.
Among the more than 200 individuals who responded to the survey, 79 percent reported a decrease in the frequency or intensity of same-sex feelings since the Journey Into Manhood weekend; 13 percent reported no change and that their same-sex feelings continue; and 6 percent said such attractions actually increased.
In terms of behavior, 73 percent reported a decrease in same-sex behaviors; 8 percent said such behaviors continue; and 5 percent reported an increase in same-sex behaviors.
Given that the program is a short weekend, it is not clear what exactly led some men to change their feelings and behaviors during the months or years after the Journey.
While 56 percent had experienced "significant" same-sex attraction at the time they took the Journey Into Manhood, the number dropped to 14 percent after the Journey.
Diminished same-sex attraction does not necessarily amount to increased heterosexual feelings, but Wyler says that's likely the case.
"What we find is that as homosexual attractions are resolved, very often heterosexual attractions emerge spontaneously," he told The Christian Post.
According to survey results, 58 percent reported an increase in heterosexual attractions and 50 percent said they experienced an increase in heterosexual behaviors (dating, intimacy, etc.) since the weekend program. Still, 28 percent reported neither an increase nor decrease in heterosexual attractions and 44 percent also reported no change in heterosexua behaviors.
Overall, 13 percent said they experienced enough change to now consider themselves straight and another 73 percent said they will continue to work on further change. Meanwhile, 12 percent said they have come to peace with their same-sex attractions and are not pursuing further change.
Change is possible, Wyler – who also came out of homosexual attractions – simply concluded.
Wyler says many opponents argue that because such programs haven't worked for them, they can't work for anyone else. At the same time, he also says it's faulty for people who have changed to say everyone else can change. Wyler's main goal is for people to overcome the distress of homosexuality and the behavior if that's what they want to do. Continue >>
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God will not change someone from being gay because he has no reason to. People are created black for a reason, people are created gay for a reason. How dare you try to twist the words of the Bible and pretend you know more than God? This article is baloney: If you surveyed me right after a brain washing weekend, I would say I felt better too. As time goes on, and the feelings of guilt grow stronger, and depression sets in because I am not changing to the way a bunch of Christians who refuse to study true scientific data say i should be, I might not feel so comfortable. My goodness people, look into the studies before you begin passing them around as fact!
why fix something that isnt broken?
Hi,
Nice article.
Sad to see that it is filled with someones numerology figures. Attempting to make "more than 200" look like an enormous participation of past patients, when it is itself an obvious small percentage of the original group(s).
The gist of the whole thing is that the only persons to really profit from it are the homosexuals who came to be more accepting of their own selves. Not the original intentions of the therapy.
The 13% who came to consider themselves straight are a real situation though. These are the main group who will degrade into damaged individuals. They are success to the therapy because they avoid homosexual contact, not because they enjoy heterosexual contact.
You see? They are the ones who are NOT well adjusted to their environment. They have hope that they will be heterosexual and accepted by their fellow Christians. Having been made to believe that Christ had no place for them before, if they do not succeed, who will accept them after? These are the poor souls who have become sheep without a Shepard.
Having been treated as if they are the least of God's children, if they do not succeed in becoming heterosexual, they have no place left to turn.
True hope can only come from Jesus. If one despairs and seeks help in the name of the Christ, Christ promises that He will send the Holy Ghost, the comforter, to these in need.
It is also the only unforgivable sin, to deny the Holy Ghost.
To deny the comforter. Many say this is to commit suicide. I say that it is as it is written, to deny anyone "hope".
The 13% success rate needs a prayer from everyone. Not that they live as I think they should, but to live as God tells them to live.
Hi,
I am new and a bit confused (my natural state of being :).
Is there some question of this article that it should not be posted or considered? This thing should have never happened and all should be warned of the possibilities, lest my child be so used by another person.
Thereby, it is part of my first post. Thank you.
By Dean Pritchard
A minister and former Christian college instructor has been found guilty of sexually assaulting a young man who sought counselling after he feared he was homosexual.
A jury returned with the guilty verdict early last night after only a few hours of deliberations.
Terrance Lewis, 60, will be sentenced at a later date.
Earlier in the day, defence lawyer Ron Simenik argued the victim knew full well the intimate sessions he shared with Lewis had nothing to do with “therapy.”
“They did it mutually by consent,” Simenik said. “We may not agree with it or understand it, but at the end of the day, that’s not the issue.”
Crown attorney Dale Schille said the evidence against Lewis was “overwhelming” and he never denied the allegations in a statement to police.
In earlier testimony, the alleged victim, now 29, told court he started meeting Lewis for counselling sessions in early 2000 after his parents caught him viewing gay pornography on the family computer.
Lewis — a family friend and minister — confided he had his own sexual identity issues and the two embarked on weekly counselling sessions designed to “assist me to be straight and to live a straight life,” the man said.
The man said Lewis started a program of “touch therapy,” which included the two kissing and fondling each other and engaging in sexual roleplaying.
“He said I was to tell no one about it because no one would understand,” the man testified.
During “touch therapy” sessions in Lewis’ car, Lewis asked him to masturbate, the man said. Lewis also admitted to fantasizing about him, the man said.
Simenik said yesterday the men didn’t become sexually intimate until a year after they started seeing each other.
“It started as a friendship, evolved, they became closer ... two consenting adults involved in mutual intimacy,” Simenik said.
I don't think it's possible to post it as a clickable website. I've seen countless people post sites on here, and they're all copy and paste.
I'll see if I can find time to check out that site. And I apologize for whoever flagged you.
Prophet, the article I was referencing is still below, but here it is at the bottom. I'm not saying all so-called reparative therapists' harm is this bad, but it's certainly worth a look-see. (Sorry I don't know how to post it as a click-able link, so copy it to your browser.)
http://www.winnipegsun.com/News/Winnipeg/2008/02/14/4847839.html
nowire
Please post again. Although I don't agree with you, I don't believe you should be flagged for something like that.
Flag if you feel you must, but all I did was post what the self-proclaimed Christian conversion therapist did to his "patient" and why he's going to jail, which is hardly a comparison to free speech in Sweden.
Well I'm glad the preacher's free speech was protected, no matter what he may have said about that biblical story. But I don't think the Christian "therapist" who performed sex acts on his 30-years-younger "client" will get off so easily!
NoWire, Thanks for the interesting article:
“A minister and former Christian college instructor has been found guilty of sexually assaulting a young man who sought counseling after he feared he was homosexual.”
The FBI actually paid a visit to a pastor in southern Illinois when he had been preaching on Sodom and Gomorrah. I don’t know of you heard about the pastor in Sweden (I believe it was) who had been arrested. I think he was exonerated later.
We need to pray that those people who are under the bondage and curse of homosexuality would realize that they can be free from it. That God is a God of change. He does change people. I'm seen it first hand, how God took someone with a serious chemical imbalance and fixed it. If He can do that, He can change a homosexuals life around.
And here's a related article which I swear I didn't even have to look for, it came up on my Yahoo home page (It's titled "Man found Guilty in gay therapy case." Copy and paste in your browser; and don't shoot the messenger!)
http://www.winnipegsun.com/News/Winnipeg/2008/02/14/4847839.html
Actually I heard Johns confession and his asking for and recieving forgiveness. And as far as I know he still is married with kids. Which is a testament to how God can change a person. But even if, even if John had fallen that still does not negate the fact that thousands have change from the gay lifestyle to what is normal man women relationships which is what God has created in all persons. from being a captive of sin to being set free by accepting this Savior in the person of Jesus Christ. Are you ready to start what is prehaps the most important,nay the most important journey one can make? Accepting Him as Lord.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure God forgave John P. (not for going into the bar, but for the hypocrisy). But did God John P. change? Nope.
Yep and that's the greatness of this God. that we can do some bone head stuff, make mistakes, even sin and he still forgives us, Still loves us, still encourages us to repent and recieve forgiveness. That appears to be foriegn to you nowire but it is what we who call Jesus Lord know. Are you ready sir to turn from your life of sin and pride and seek this God who will forgive you also just like he did for John P, myself, Prophet and million of others, or do just want to wallow in your own mire till the end. Your choice. Jesus is knocking at your door, I'd let Him in if I were you.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Did someone say Exodus International? The same organization whose poster child John Paulk was photographed leaving a gay bar after flirting with a friend of the shutterbug? Yep, the very same.
Tom,
Amen. We need to pray that those people who are under the bondage and curse of homosexuality would realize that they can be free from it. That God is a God of change. He does change people. I'm seen it first hand, how God took someone with a serious chemical imbalance and fixed it. If He can do that, He can change a homosexuals life around.
to everyone go to the exodus international and love won out web sites and see the testimonies of those who hae left the homosexaul lifestyle. Study after study are showing that you can change. The Bible says that God will change you if you are willing to accept His Son Jesus as Lord and Savior. With God all things are possible.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
To everyone: Go on YouTube, type in the keyword "ex-gay" and see videos from all the people "not harmed" by conversion therapy!!
Well, I've got a Valentine's date with my wife. I will catch you on the flip flop.
And I suppose you say it's over, because you have no real argument for those types of relationships that I presented. You want gays to have rights, but no one else.
Who are you to judge what 'marriage" or "love" is? If a man wants to marry his pet, you have no right to place your narrow minded views and opinions on him. You are no better than I.
And you haven't said anything about incestuous relationships.
2 consenting adults differ significantly from an animal and his owner.....Prophet, this argument is really over. Here's the bottom line:
My belief system is malleable based on existing and new evidence. Yours is strictly rooted in your Christian ideology. That won't change. I'm thankful I live in a secular self-correcting democracy where scientific fact is valued but annoyed that the pace of progress is slower because of less intelligent, uncultured, fable-believing Creationists who hold us at ransom with their voting power. Eventually, your beliefs will be replaced by those of the new "more liberal" Christian generation who will reinretrept "Scripture" in a convenient way that can be harmonized with new scientific evidence. This has happened throughout history and there's no reason it will stop. So, go ahead and stage your protests at gay pride parades. Fight your local school board to remove evolution from the curriculum. And use your vote to stymie scientific progress in Congress. You're a thorn in the side of us secularists, but you will go away eventually.
I take it that sddane has no problem with people involved in incestuous and beastial relationships. And as a message to all the homosexual and their advocates, I hope you have no problems with them as well. And I hope that in your "tolerant" nature that you exhude, that you would be more than willing to support them in their attempts to gain the same rights that you desparately seek.
Shequon,
Yet.
So you admit we don't know EXACTLY what is meant by every single passage for the bible, or why it was written the way it was back then. That is what we have been trying to say all along!!
sddane,
What IS your view on incestuous and beastial relationships?
By the way, sddane,
I hope you don't have any qualms about incestuous relationships. Or beastial relationships.
Que,
Amen! That's probably why I've never given it much thought. God has more important things to reveal to me. Like how to attain unto the likeness of His Son, Jesus. How to walk holy. How to offer up my life a sacrifice, and deny the lusts of my flesh. Things that matter in eternity.
And I like your comment "Although, I suspect I really will have more important things on my mind. :) "
hahaha...That, I am sure of.
There are those who demand that "one must believe in 6-literal day creationism to truly believe in Christ. "
Man cannot demand anything of me. God demands my utmost faith and trust in His Only Son. This is all that I am commanded. All other details are as the Spirit leads. I have no opinion on the 6-day creation. It is as it says it is. I don't question, nor feel the need to. It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter if it's 6 24 hour days
It doesn't matter if it's 6 "God" days - whatever that may be
It doesn't matter if it's 6 10,000 year long "days"
It doesn't matter.
God says 6 days. I'll wait til I get to heaven and ask Him EXACTLY what He meant by that, then.
Although, I suspect I really will have more important things on my mind. :)
By the way, sddane,
I hope you don't have any qualms about incestuous relationships. Or beastial relationships.
Well, as I said earlier. I am not going to go over God's view on marraige and sex, because you are carnal and cannot comprehend the things of the Spirit. Nor will I try to help/make you understand. But this I will say: There is more to sex than a physical action.
To be honest, I am still undecided about the age of the earth. I have heard numerous opinions concerning that.
Some say that creation was a literal 6 day process, which would make the world 4000-5000 years old
Some say that the Bible speaks of "A day to the Lord is like a thousand years" which leads them to believe the earth is closer to 10,000 years old.
Some say that the word "day" in Genesis is suppose to be translated "eon" which could make the world eons old (which I'm not sure if I'm inclined to believe since Genesis says that the morning and night made the first day, second day, etc)
And some say that between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 is a gap of time. That there had been a previous earth before this one, and God reformed it like a potter does with clay. And that fossils and suck are left over from the previous earth.
Unfortunately, I don't know everything about the Bible, or what God truly meant in Genesis one. But I do know He's real. And I keep searching the scriptures and His Spirit for the truth iof all things. I may never know the truth behind creation until I die and get to see Him face to face.
This is just unbelievable.
And the only way a heterosexual would get AIDS in a marriage is if
A: He/she contacted it through a blood transfusion, or
B: He/she is not entirely monogamous as he/she says...which goes back to "responsible sex".
Responsible sex: A man having sex only with his life-long wife, and no one else.
So 2 men who engage in responsible sex will get AIDS?
Is your assessment of human sex really that simplistic? Prophet, you can get a PhD in human sexualty from Harvard. There are thousands of books on the subject. Do you admit knowing more than leading experts?
So is the point of coupling (marriage), only to have children?
That is my point. Man cannot procreate alone (or with each other). Women cannot procreate alone (or with each other). Conventional wisdom (with is lacking in this day and age) would say that men need women, and vice-versa to procreate. Anything outside that is abnormal.
Do you believe in a 6,000 year old Earth?
I was just wondering if men, as a whole, had the "hardware" necessary to get pregnant and carry a child to term.
God didn't create anything. We evolved. We have over 13 useless body parts that increasingly disappear over time such as wisdom teeth, an appendix, a tailbone, extra musculature underneath the armpits, etc.
Anyway, what is your point? That men can't procreate alone? Is that your wisdom of the day?
Did God createwomen in general(or did women evolve, as you would put it) with the ability to get impregnated and carry a baby to term, and give birth to such?
Did God create men in general(or did men evolve, as you would put it) with the ability to get impregnated and carry a baby to term, and give birth to such?
Either have infertile couples or the elderly....what's your point?
So, no gay men have ever procreated with each other?
And the only way a heterosexual would get AIDS in a marriage is if
A: He/she contacted it through a blood transfusion, or
B: He/she is not entirely monogamous as he/she says...which goes back to "responsible sex".
Responsible sex: A man having sex only with his life-long wife, and no one else.
sddane,
What's the statistics of gay men who have gotten pregnant?
None. What's your point? Their sperm works and given modern technology, they can have children if they want.
Well, I have to go. More pressing issues, such as my time with God. I will leave you with this one thing.
Carnal man will never understand the things of the Spirit. They will always be foolishness to him. And things of the flesh are foolishness to him who walks in the spirit. God is a spirit, and where He is, is where I want to be. God wants to have a relationship with you. But He is holy and sinless. And the deeper you want your relationship to be with Him, the more holy and sinless you will need to be.
That's what the Bible (especially the NT) is about. How to have a relationship with God.
I don't want a relationship with an invisible man, .thank you. My time is better spent working, not praying. So please keep your invisible man to yourself. This is a secular country, built upon secular values, not Christian. Let's keep it that way.
sddane,
What's the statistics of gay men who have gotten pregnant?
Nowire,
"Responsible sex" education is just as bad, if not worse. Both are dependant upon the "free will" (or willingness) to adhere. Teenagers are just as likely to choose not to abstain, as they are likely to choose not to use responsiblity in sex. And I haven't even touched on the emotional and psychological impact of sex outside of marriage. But I won't go there, because carnal people would not understand, nor acknowledge it.
Human wisdom: "It's okay for men to have sex with men"
Result: AIDS, lower life expectancy, more prone to colon cancer, inability to procreate, etc, etc.
UNBELIEVABLE. Lesbians don't get AIDS. Heterosexuals get AIDS, even in marriage. Inability to procreate? I think their sperm works. This says it all really about your mindset.
I think I've heard enough. Humanism bad. God good. I have yet to see anything good come from religion (its contributions to progress? any?) while human curiousity and its resultant fruits improves our lives daily and will continue to do so if you religionists weren't so obssessed with death and hell.
You have to ask yourself some fairly obvious questions. Why are the least religious countries also the wealthiest, healthiest, happiest, and best educated? Do Swedes need God to treat each other with civility and respect? Are France and Norway's high birth rates, pro-family legislation, and extensive maternity leave irreconcilable with their corresponding pro-gay family policies? Why is crime and divorce statiscially lower in more liberal and progressive Blue State America than in the pious South? Does Tokyo need Jesus to post some of the lowest crime rates in the urban world? Why is there no Harvard in Kansas or Alabama? Conversely, the hyper-religious Muslim world suffers from the worst rates of violence, poverty, intolerance, and technological backwardness. Is this a coincidence? Is it not possible that their hostile treatment of women, coupled with a rigid belief system which suggest that all life-related questions are answerable in the Koran and an obsession with the after-life, prevent their societies from harnessing their creative abilities and talent?
And by the way, are scientists lying? Do they have an agenda? If so, what would that be? Are they biased or subscribe to a particular ideology? As far as I'm concerned, scientists are simply curious about the nature of the world, make observations, formulate hypotheses, and test their veracity. They could care less what religion claims. They are in the pursuit of truth, not defending fairytales like Creationism, Noah's Ark, or the Tower of Babel. Those same scientists which cure diseases, alleviate famines, and make daily discoveries certainly do not fit the profile of immoral heathens who are out to "get religion." Can you imagine what our world would look like today without that human curiousity which so many Bible-believing Christians call Satanic temptation? And plus, if science had conversely proven anything in the Bible, you can bet that Christians would be applauding the scientific community and embracing their conculsions with almost hysterical enthusiasm.
Why can't you Christians focus on alleviating suffering and increasing happiness rather than obsessing about sex and death and punishment?
Well, I have to go. More pressing issues, such as my time with God. I will leave you with this one thing.
Carnal man will never understand the things of the Spirit. They will always be foolishness to him. And things of the flesh are foolishness to him who walks in the spirit. God is a spirit, and where He is, is where I want to be. God wants to have a relationship with you. But He is holy and sinless. And the deeper you want your relationship to be with Him, the more holy and sinless you will need to be.
That's what the Bible (especially the NT) is about. How to have a relationship with God.
Correction: SHE can vote. Be terrified if you like. (The hyperbole tossed around in here is without equal!)
Isa 26:3 Thou (LORD)will keep [him] in perfect peace, [whose] mind [is] stayed [on thee]: because he trusteth in thee. Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH [is] everlasting strength.
Perfect peace - now THAT's no hyperbole!
Abstinence only education does not work. The failure right of kids who've intended to be abstinant is atrocious.
Human wisdom: "It's okay to have sex with as many people as you want"
Result: STD's, teenage pregnancies(many girls drop out of school, resulting in more welfare cases), abortions, etc.
Human wisdom: "It's okay for men to have sex with men"
Result: AIDS, lower life expectancy, more prone to colon cancer, inability to procreate, etc, etc.
4:Yes, we are most decidedly concerned about sex issues. Yes, I have seen the mountains of evidence about promoting responsible sex. Teenage pregnancies, abortions, STD's, AIDS, etc. And yet, I haven't heard one person who's gotten pregnant by practicing abstinence. Hmmm...interesting. No one who has been practicing abstinence has needed to have an abortion (outside of rape). No one practicing abstinence has contracted an STD or AIDS (other than through alternative sources). So far it's "Responsible" sex:0, and abstinence:3.
5: Not all brilliant minds believe that way. And as far as teaching it in school, I'm not asking to remove eveolution, but to offer creationism along side of it. I don't care if the schools teach evolution. My children know it's incorrect. I was taught evolution in school too.
6: Your comment made absolutely no sense. If abstinence was practiced from the beginining, would we have STD's? And I do not discourage contraception, but yes, it does promote irresponsible sex. Teenagers feel invulnerable enough without the assistance of "birth control". Vaccines take care of the symptoms. Abstinence takes care of the problem. But that's the way of the world today. As long as the symptoms are treated, why worry about the cause? And I'm not just talking about sex. I'm talking about diseases, sickness, relationships, etc etc. Why do you think that pharmeceutical drugs is such a huge industry?
You said vaccines will lead to promiscuity. No. Making contraception available to teenagers will. You also said "You would rather people die than engage in responsible, cosenting sex." Again, no. I'd rather people abastain than engage in irresponsible sex. But that's all it is to you. Sex. You don't see it the way God does. And that is your decision. You don't believe in God, ergo you do not see things the way He does.
But let me rebut your earlier post:
Although there are archaelogical digs that prove the existence of Biblical cities (and sometimes their demise as written in the Bible), that is not enough to sway people one way or another. Believing the Bible and in God is faith. As I've said before in other posts, if God were to come down and stand before you face to face (which won't happen because no one can see God and live) you would pass it off as a hallucination.
But lets go over your points.
1: Stem cell is not as "awesome" as people think. It has actually yielded little, and scientists have discovered that stem cells from adults is more profitable.
2:Gay marriage. Well, you all know our viewpoint on gay marriage, and gay relationships. But don't worry, they'll get their day. Gay marriages will eventually be allowed. And they'll be happy for a few short years, until they face God. And their blood will be on your hands.
But even aside from that. You open doors for incestuous marriages, and every other form of sodomy imaginable.
3:I support the Jewish nation because God says to pray for the peace of Israel. How can Israel have peace when there is no Israel because some other countries divided up their land among themselves.
Human wisdom is worth nothing. Human wisdom was behind WW1, WW2, Korean War, Vietnam War, Gulf War, and (I know you disagree with our occupation of Iraq) the Iraq War. But I get the feeling that it's only YOUR wisdom that amounts to anything. Am I right?
As per your post with the many points...
Notice how nothing but the robotic regurgitation of humanism is cited? How stimulating....
"Human wisdom is worth nothing."
How does Quecat's belief not terrify everyone? He can vote.
sddane,
We quote the Words of God who is eternal and infallible. You quote words of man who is mortal, prone to mistakes, erroneous, and self seeking. Are you any better?
Notice how nothing but Biblical verses was contributed. Nothing was addressed, dissected, or evaluated. Congratulations Quecat. You've shown us how intellectually stimulating it can be to regurgitate memorized religious texts.
Praise the Lord! THIS "significant voting block" knows the truth and will walk in accordance with it despite all protestations to the contrary...
Human wisdom is worth nothing.
1Cor 3:18-21 " Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness"; and again, "The LORD knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."
Therefore let no one boast in men. "
Scripture is absolute truth, irrefutable, inerrant, eternal:
1Cor 2:1, 4-8, 14-16 "... when I came to you, (I) did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God.
And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
You said "But I do know the Bible is true." The burden of proof falls upon you to provide evidence for that. Why is that important? Because you Christians form a significant voting block in this country and your collective delusion about "what God wants" or "what the Bible says" does not just generate obstacles to progress, but also is potentially lethal.
1.) stem cell research: the most promising life-saving research in history. Yet, you believe 3-day old embryos have "souls." You'd rather save a soul in Petri dish rather than a child with 3rd degree burns.
2.) gay marriage: you would deny millions of people the same rights because you are trying to save them from an eternity in hell. Why? Because an invisible bearded Caucasian says so. Try explaining that to the gay couple who can't adopt who lost his partner's benefits upon death because his relationship wasn't recognized by the state.
3.) unwaivering support of Israel: Do you really care about the Jewish people, or are you trying to usher in the second coming of Jesus by provoking war?
4.) sex: you're not concerned about the consequences of liberal sex - pregnancy, disease, healthy minds, etc. Nope. you ignore the mountains if research which support the teaching of responsible sex and opt for "no sex." See where your priorities are? you are obsessed with the act, not the consequences.
5.) teaching creationism: while our most brilliant minds unilaterally expect evolution, somehow you find more evidence in the Creation story: God made the world in 6 days, 6,000 years ago (roughly a century AFTER the Sumerians invented glue). I don't want my kids learning that in a public school. I want my kids learning about evolution in their science class. You want create a dim-witted, ignorant, and technologically-backwards society? Then, teach Creationism in your Sunday schools, not my kids' science class.
5.) Vaccines which protect against STDs: To you, sexually-transmitted diseases are a preventative mechanism to sex. To you, vaccines may lead to greater promiscuity. You would rather people die than engage in responsible, cosenting sex.
When I said "No I wouldn't"...I was refering to your original question about believing in eternity...not the question "Do you admit that these are possibilities?" I have thought those possibilities, as stated in my last post.
But to be more direct. No. I wouldn't.
That is a phase I've gone through already. I have questioned. I have wondered. I have doubted. And I have weighed the arguments. Logic won the intellectual debate. But there was something deeper and stronger than my logic and intellect. Something that can transform lives. Change them. Heal them. Deliver them. And I knew that if I relied upon the assesment of my intellect and logic, I could choose to not believe, and I would reinforce that because I could say "I haven't seen God change lives, or heal them, or deliver them". But that would be because of my own choice, not because God didn't exist. God ixists whether we think He does or not. And God doesn't go against a person's will. As I said in an earlier post, I chose to believe, and because of my belief and my willingness to allow God to do what He wants, He has proved Himself to me.
Just as there are people out there who believe that God exists, but they do not give Him permission to move and do in their lives. So, God does not move. And He does not do. He will never do in your life what you will not let Him. People ask "Is there anything that God can't do?" And I say yes. He cannot go against our free will in our own personal lives. Ever.
You didn't answer my question. I, as an atheist, could be wrong about God, Jesus, and the Bible and should expect to spend eternity in hell for my disbelief. Correct?
Assume you're wrong. The Bible is just an ordinary book and Jesus an ordinary man. Or, assume the Muslims got it right. There is a God but his desires are best represented by Islam. Islam is the truth faith and disbelief in Mohammed as God's final prohet leads to eternal hellfire.
Do you admit that these are possibilities?
"If the Bible is just an ordinary book, and Christ, an ordinary man, would you still believe eternity? "
If I were made of puddiing, would I still be alive? I don't know. I am not made of pudding, so I've never thought about that question.
But I do know the Bible is true, and Jesus is the Son of God. So I can only answer on what I know. I could spend my life speculating "what if..." "what if....", and end up more confused than ever. But I know "What is." So, my speculation is done.
Before you answer that, can you answer the following question:
If the Bible is just an ordinary book, and Christ, an ordinary man, would you still believe eternity?
Yes, I am aware that Ephesians 6:5 says "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ." (KJV)
Servants: "drakon": bond servant: one who is a servant of love.
What about it?
Before you answer that, can you answer the following question:
If the Bible is just an ordinary book, and Christ, an ordinary man, would you still believe eternity?
Are you familiar with these passages?
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Yes, sorry. I guess "Holy Word" does sound pious. LOL. I'm sorry. The Bible.
Is the Holy Word you speak of, the Bible?
Because I believe in God and His Holy Word. And because I've believed, He has proved Himself time and time again.
Prophet - why do you believe in eternity?
No, I'm not busy preparing for the rapture. I am already ready for the rapture. Now, I am working to help others prepare for eternity.
Yes, life is fleeting. That's why eternity is so important. Before you know it, you're life will be done, and then eternity begins. And that never ends.
I am concentrating on what matters....eternity. Your life is nothing more than a vapor. Here one second and then *POOF* you're gone. Even in the grand scheme of evolution. In the billions of years that evolutionists believe the earth has been here, your measly 60 or 70 years isn't even a tick on second hand of a clock. How insignificant is your life in the grand scheme of things.
YES PROPHET. And the minute you realize that, you'll understand just how precious life is. Also, you'll admire those people who selflessly serve humanity not because they're seeking a post-morten reward or emulating Jesus or Allah, but because they know what is needed to build a better life NOW. They think about the NOW because there is ONLY THE NOW. Your kind is busy preparing for the Rapture while my kind is busy trying to build a better furture for our kids NOW.
So people are born homosexuals? Ok. People are born with Downs Syndrome, but we have a huge group trying to find a cure for it. Why? That's the way they were created! Leave them alone for pete's sake! Who are you to change them! Sounds like you people are talking out of both sides of your mouth. "Change everyone else.....but leave me alone. I'm fine with the way I am". And before you spout off that that is how Christians say the same thing, let me tell you this. My whole life is about change. I WANT to change. I want to become as much like Jesus as I can. That means giving up a lot of the habits and desires that I have, that aren't Christ like. It's hard! The Bible said it wasn't easy. But I don't preach anything I don't practice in my own life. I hold myself to the same standards that I promote.
Again - are you suggesting we tamper with the fetuses to reorient them before they're born? Clearly, if GOD made them this way, then there is must be some purpose for that, right? And comparing homosexuality with Down Syndrome? Wow! You don't know anyone gay, do you?
"The sooner you realize that, the less time you will spend on such trivial issues and concentrate more on what matters. "
I am concentrating on what matters....eternity. Your life is nothing more than a vapor. Here one second and then *POOF* you're gone. Even in the grand scheme of evolution. In the billions of years that evolutionists believe the earth has been here, your measly 60 or 70 years isn't even a tick on second hand of a clock. How insignificant is your life in the grand scheme of things.
ssdane,
You said "...Christian ideologues ignore the mountains of indisputable evidence for biologically-determined homosexuality as widely accepted by the scientific community..." So people are born homosexuals? Ok. People are born with Downs Syndrome, but we have a huge group trying to find a cure for it. Why? That's the way they were created! Leave them alone for pete's sake! Who are you to change them! Sounds like you people are talking out of both sides of your mouth. "Change everyone else.....but leave me alone. I'm fine with the way I am". And before you spout off that that is how Christians say the same thing, let me tell you this. My whole life is about change. I WANT to change. I want to become as much like Jesus as I can. That means giving up a lot of the habits and desires that I have, that aren't Christ like. It's hard! The Bible said it wasn't easy. But I don't preach anything I don't practice in my own life. I hold myself to the same standards that I promote.
"God, I pray that you would have your way in their lives. Draw them out by your Spirit. Pierce their hearts to show them that there is more to this life than remaining the way they are. Lord, the way they "were created", and what you want them to become are two completely different things. Help them to see that just because they were born a certain way, it doesn;t mean it's right, nor do they have to remain that way. You are about change. Help them to offer up themselves a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to you. God help them. "
What arrogance. Prophet, you are the epitome of what is wrong with America. God is a myth. The sooner you realize that, the less time you will spend on such trivial issues and concentrate more on what matters.
"My wife was chronic-depressive/suicidal her whole life. It was a chemical imbalance, and they had her on Prozac (which didn't do a thing for her). She wanted to change, but she was afraid. It was all she had ever known. It was her "security blanket". Would she know how to act after being delivered? She didn't know anything other than being depressed. Her whole life would change completely. That fear kept her in bondage for years. Finally, the fear of remaining in that hell overcame the fear of what that change would bring. One day, at a revival, God healed/delivered her instantaneously! From that second on, she never had another problem with depression, nor any thoughts whatsoever about suicide! God has continued to change her over the past ten years. If you ask her today if it was worth it, she would say that her life today is 100,000 times better than she could have thought. "
Another MAJOR problem with the religious - incredible self-centered arrogance. So God responsded to your prayers, but not the infants drowned in their cribs during a tsunami? Does prayer (God) work for amputees? Will an amputee ever get his or her limb back?
You just can't attribute anything to coincidence or good fortune. It must be God - listening to the whines of a child on Earth begging for some candy. And God spotted YOU Prophet, out of the whole crowd! You are among the chosen. Congratulations.
ssdane,
Time and time again, God proves your belief "Even if you could change your sexual orientation (which is completely absurd, unfounded, and unnecessary), " as being false. He does it all the time. But only for those who want the change. That's why you never see it happen. You dont want to change, and I assume you hang out with people who share your view.
But what you believe about what God can and can't do doesn't change the truth, and it affects no one but you.
God, I pray that you would have your way in their lives. Draw them out by your Spirit. Pierce their hearts to show them that there is more to this life than remaining the way they are. Lord, the way they "were created", and what you want them to become are two completely different things. Help them to see that just because they were born a certain way, it doesn;t mean it's right, nor do they have to remain that way. You are about change. Help them to offer up themselves a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to you. God help them.
"Take heed. Satan likes to pull the wool over people’s eyes. "
Oh wow. See. Here is the problem. Now, Satan LOVES us to have knowledge, right, because ultimately it weakens the requirement of belief in an all-powerful diety. The normal unbiased reader of the Bible would say: it seems pretty obvious that the powerbrokers of the time really knew how to manipulate the poor, stupid, and illiterate by promiising the disobedient hellfire after death if they don't listen to me about god(s).
And now for those evil scienists who pursue this filthy "knowledge" (which you take advantage of daily). They're busy curing diseases, alleviating famines, engaging in live-saving research, developing state-of-the-art technology, and winning Nobel Prizes for our country. Meanwhile, those same "heathen" believe in evolution (GASP), support stem-cell research (GASP), want to vaccinate women from HPV (GASP), and support biologically-determined homosexuality (GASP)! Is that when knowledge becomes evil and inspired by Satan?
In this case, as usual, the Christian ideologues ignore the mountains of indisputable evidence for biologically-determined homosexuality as widely accepted by the scientific community in an effort to vindicate a few ancient Biblical versus, which coincidentally share the same chapters with God-given guidlines on slave-ownership, dietary restrictions, and execution styles for a variety of offenses including breaking the Ten Commandments, practicing witchcraft, and apostasy.
Am I surprised to hear your severely unsophisticated and factually-devoid rants? Am I surprised that your priorities today, as "Christians" are not universal healthcare, reversing the growing gap between rich and poor, and alleviating suffering worldwide but truly trivial issues such as equal (not special) rights for gays and lesbians, teaching evolution, and stem-cell research? Am I surprised that you cherry-pick the verses from your religious texts that are conveniently reconcilable with the cozy, modern lifestyles you enjoy courtesy to those "heathen" scientists, philosophers, and secularists, including the largely agnostic founders of our country? No, because You are the same people who believe the world started 6,000 years ago when a talking snake tricked a woman into eathing magic fruit.
Amen, Tom and Squeaky!
I know first-hand about His changing power. But it is only sufficient for those who want to change (as Tom pointed out).
My wife was chronic-depressive/suicidal her whole life. It was a chemical imbalance, and they had her on Prozac (which didn't do a thing for her). She wanted to change, but she was afraid. It was all she had ever known. It was her "security blanket". Would she know how to act after being delivered? She didn't know anything other than being depressed. Her whole life would change completely. That fear kept her in bondage for years. Finally, the fear of remaining in that hell overcame the fear of what that change would bring. One day, at a revival, God healed/delivered her instantaneously! From that second on, she never had another problem with depression, nor any thoughts whatsoever about suicide! God has continued to change her over the past ten years. If you ask her today if it was worth it, she would say that her life today is 100,000 times better than she could have thought.
The difference between her and many homosexuals is the desire to change. Many homosexuals have no desire to change. They think (incorrectly) that they are okay. And it's not fear that holds them down...its pride.
This is the problem with this kind of debate. There are those of on this planet: secularists, humanists, freethinkers, agnostics, atheists, etc., who could literally care less what 2 consenting adults do naked or whether they want to formalize their relationship. On the other hand, we have the Biblisists and their Muslim, Jewish, and Hindu ilk, who are obssessed with sex because God says in Chapter blah, blah, blah, verse blah, blah, blah. Do you see where I'm going with this? Even if you could change your sexual orientation (which is completely absurd, unfounded, and unnecessary), why should you? Again, the Christian will say "because God says" or "it's part of the plan" or "Jesus loves them." Can you really have a civilized, philosophical, sophisticated debate whos answers are that predictable and rooted in ideogology rather than fact? Of course not. But what do I know, right? At the end of the day, this debate will disappear. As more of the Jesusfreaks have someone very close to them, like a child, grandchild, sibling, or even parent, tell them they are gay, then will they full understand just how misled they've been (and unnecessarily hurtful in the process). Statistically, this will happen; it's only a matter of time.
Grant said: “By the way, every sheep farmer knows that about 8 percent of his sheep prefer to couple with the same gender. Anybody have a biblical explanation for this?”
Take heed. Satan likes to pull the wool over people’s eyes.
Prophet, sqeaky and chris333 the problem is those such as citizen and sddane refuse to look at the evidence that one can change. Study after study show this, along with orgs. like Love won out, Exodus Inter. and the Narth web site provide the resources for those who really wish to rid themselves of this lifestlye. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Of course as we know with God all things are possible to those who believe.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Change is always possible through the power of Christ. Exodus International has testimonies of former homosexuals to validate that hope.
Citizen,
You said "Prophet, the survey is worthless, and the dogma you are promoting drives people to suicide." Show me proof. Show me statistics. Otherwise, quit with the lies.
sddane,
Your posts are not worth commenting on, when you want a real debate try saying something intelligent.
Citizen,
Homosexuals, on average, are much more suicidal than heterosexuals. There are lots of people who are discriminated against, but the vast, vast majority do not commit suicide. Suicide is almost always associated with a mental disease.
Prophet, the survey is worthless, and the dogma you are promoting drives people to suicide. The "ex-gay" movement has the blood of innocents on its hands.
Cease from sin. Present your bodies as a sacrifice to God, holy and acceptable. Deny the lusts of the flesh. Walk in the spirit and strive to attain unto the image of Chirst Himself. Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Come out from among the sinners and be separate. God wants to have a relationship with you, but He can't while you still hang on to your sin.
I see that sddane cannot handle when the truth is thrown in his face. They could post on here that a study involving 200 hundred men showed that homosexuality is a "harmless biological coincidence", and he would be all over it...lauding it, bragging about how he's right and everyone else is wrong, blah blah blah.
But when the tables are turned, he does the mature thing. He cries foul. Whether it was a study group of 200, 2000, or even 200,000...he still would not accept it. And he calls Chritians close minded?
On the other hand, we have the sinner, convicted of his behavior by his own conscience, who rebels in his pride and hates that his sin has been made known. He reasons within himself that if he can convince the world that his sin, that he refuses to renounce, is not actually sin, in effect redefining what is and is not sin, that his conscience will be appeased. Therefore he too, acts offended when his "pet" sin is the topic of conversation.
This is called fooling yourself.
God knows the difference. Do you?
This is problem with all religions. Since you continue to invoke "God's" wishes into the debate, it's only fair to ask God himself to deliberate over this issue. Why? Because millions of gay couples, who lead tangible, real, daily existences, suffer restricted rights on the basis of your interpretation of the beliefs and opinions of an eternally invisible, cloud-dwelling leprechuan.
The posts here indicate that the readers actually consider this garbarge science. A sample size of 200 self-hating men who are desperately trying to reorientate their sexuality. It's just laughable.
The anti-science devout are too simple-minded and deluded by their faith to see homosexuality for what it really is: a harmless biological coincidence which requires no "rehabilitation." This won't be an issue in 20 years when equal rights for the GLBT community have been acheived. Facts have always trumped religious myths throughout history and this "grave issue" is really no different. But don't worry Christians. Just like with the creation-myth and slavery, I'm sure your offspring will find a way to convenienity reintrepret those allegedly anti-gay Biblical passages to reflect scientific reality in a weak effort to retain a shred of legitimacy.
I think the major issue here is the data in the survey was gathered incorrectly, and therefore the results cannot be taken seriously. The only participants that were surveyed were those who responded to the survey. I saw another article on the survey, and this group represents only a fraction of those who went through the program. One cannot make broad statements about the success of an organization based on a select group of the participants - it is not truly representative. What about all the folks who went through unsuccessfully, and were too ashamed, or uninterested to respond? They are not being considered in the statistics here. No ligitimate scientific community would give any merit to this study. Also, to imply that the APA is "revising" its stance on conversion therapy - if anything, it will simply rely on legitimate studies, which do not shed any favorable light on conversion therapy.
By the way, every sheep farmer knows that about 8 percent of his sheep prefer to couple with the same gender. Anybody have a biblical explanation for this?
I don't have a problem necessarily with the idea but without God this is totally in vain. God is the only one that is able to change and keep us. I think the saving grace of Jesus needs to be added to be affective.
Merkin,
You have to be joking. A personal attack is that which imputes something upon another's character which is not true, a lie, false. For me, as a Christian, who believes in the Bible and that Homosexuality is inherently wrong, as well as a married heterosexual, both in practice and my very core, this is a personal attack. It would be the same as me telling a person who is against pedophilia, "Oh you must be a pedophile". And I do not "dislike" homosexuals, I do dislike their behavior, but it is not my business unless they want to push it upon me, or try to claim that it is not condemned in the Bible.
Citizen,
I am sorry, you were wrong. I was defending this article and the previously homosexual people or still homosexuals who benefited from this group. You seem to only be concerned with smearing them, as you are with me. Anyways, this can be evidenced in asking the question, why did you even ask me about it? What was the purpose in that? It is completely unrelated to this argument. I haven't asked you if you were gay, because it just does not have to do with the argument. You purposely tried to get this sidetracked and brought up my personal character. (This being said, I do not think there should be any shame in a person admitting they are gay, or that they attended a program such as this. Just the same as there should be no shame in admitting you are heterosexual, the difference is that you tried to paint me with something I am not... think about it for a while and why you did it)
What happens to the women in these men's lives? The women will never experience the true and real love that a heterosexual man can give to a woman. These men have used behavior altering techniques and they hide their true selves behind a woman.
An organization that calls itself People Can Change finds that this type of "therapy" is not harmful. What a surptise!
Chris, your dislike of gay people becomes fairly transparent when you assume that Citizen's question is a "personal attack."
I believe that the dynamic that is exposed here is this:
The man justified before Christ and walking in opposition to sin is offended when it is implied that he is yet actively a sinner, partaking in a sin which he has never even been tempted to.
This is what is called righteous indignation.
On the other hand, we have the sinner, convicted of his behavior by his own conscience, who rebels in his pride and hates that his sin has been made known. He reasons within himself that if he can convince the world that his sin, that he refuses to renounce, is not actually sin, in effect redefining what is and is not sin, that his conscience will be appeased. Therefore he too, acts offended when his "pet" sin is the topic of conversation.
This is called fooling yourself.
God knows the difference. Do you?
Chris333: A lot of the graduates of these programs do end up married (sometimes to a fellow graduate of the opposite sex), so that's not really an answer to my question. The reason I asked is that the dominant tone of your remarks on this thread is defensiveness, so I thought that you might have a very personal connection to these programs, either yourself or a relative, perhaps.
It is instructive that you suggest that these programs are good and people who want to take advantage of them should be left alone, but when it is suggested that you might be personally involved, you find it insulting. Maybe gays find it just as insulting when the people involved in this "ex-gay" movement suggest that they need to change, or that their god wants them to change. Think about it.
But Chris333, you're overlooking what they consider harrassment.
What the homosexual movement considers "harrassment' is the very fact that Christians who understand the bible and will not compromise God's word, have the "nerve" to even call a spade, a spade.
You can see this in their very words..If your church is not "open and affirming", although you've never actively done or said a single thing against a homosexual person, they accuse you of being "hateful".
Sin is what it always has been, rebellion against God.
Citizen,
You know that I am a married man (to a woman), you have poor taste, trying to paint me with something you know that I am not. You know when your opponent does this that they have nothing of substance left in their argument. Anyways if you want to make personal attacks then I have no business speaking with you.
Merkin,
I never said it was ok to harass the rest of the gay community, I do not harass the rest of the gay community, I explain as well I can why Christianity does not approve of homosexuality, but I am giving what the Bible says, if you have a problem with this then you have a problem with God not me.
(For that matter, if a pro-homosexual wants to come on this post, and try to make the case that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, then I will respond)
Chris writes: "If people want to change part of their behavior, then let them, and stop harrassing [sic] them."
But it's perfectly alright to harass the majority who don't want to, or can't. Right?
Chris333: Are you a graduate of one of these programs by any chance, or connected to them in some other way?
Oh get over yourselves everyone that is against this. The ones who did respond overwhelmingly felt a positive influence in their lives, but I guess you hate that too right? Unless they are becoming more gay you will be angry. If somebody says, "I was homosexual, but by the grace of God and the help of these people I have become heterosexual" you say, "Oh this poor victim, he is only lying to himself, the religious right are probably forcing him to say this, we need to rescue him before he commits suicide"
Here is a novel idea, if people want to change part of their behavior, then let them, and stop harrassing them. I don't hear any of you complaining if a pedophile or murderer wants to change their behavior. (By the way, if you say I equated homosexuality with pedophilia or murder then let everyone know, right now, that you are 100% wrong and most likely everything else you will say is wrong)
sounds like everyone speaking ILL of this in some way are complete idiots,
no faith or trust in the data at all.
I'm certain removing homosexual attractions can't turn a homosexual into a hetrosexual, any more than removing hetrosexual atractions will turn a myself and other hetrosexuals into a homosexual. What's next; removing all attractions to races other than caucasion so every one can become caucasion? I'm getting tired of the oppression by the ambiguous "religious" of others based on an abigious book. They seem to need an enemy to hate, when they run short enemies they may figure out a way to make me or others the enemy.
Not only does this "study" not include people who didn't response, it also makes no mention of the people who dropped out of the program (or were pushed out). These programs must be really desperate to justify promoting a dogma-driven agenda that is responsible for driving vulnerable individuals to suicide, if this is the "quality" of the research they are leaning on.
wow two more studies saying those caught up in this life style can change----Hmmmmm God is so good. Narth is a good site to check out.
In Christ
Tom
This "study" is a complete lie. If you look at the research you will find that a majority of the possible participants did not respond to their survey, yet they did not factor these in when calculating the results. So when they make their claims regarding the percentage of men who responded favorably, they are wholly overlooking the men who choose not to even respond!
It's reasonable to assume that the non-responses would be the ones who most likely experiences no markable change, and who possibly want nothing to do with the organization. So it's completely disingenuous to make these claims without factoring them in.