A person who is a practicing homosexual cannot be a true follower of Jesus, according to the director of a network of church and ministry leaders in the Greater Charlotte area.
The two lifestyles "are mutually incompatible," said Dr. Michael Brown, head of Coalition of Conscience in Charlotte, N.C., in an interview with The Christian Post. "God's order is always male and female union. That's how He blesses us."
Brown said he believes "no one is born gay" and although one may experience homosexual feelings as part of man's fallen nature and personal life experiences, change is possible.
"According to Scripture, all of us are born with a fallen nature. The fact that something is natural does not mean it's moral," he said.
Brown tackled the controversial issues of whether the Bible sanctions anti-homosexual prejudice, if ex-gays were possible, and whether Jesus would tolerate homosexuals this past week in a lecture series on the question: "Can you be Gay and Christian?"
The lectures were held at the Booth Playhouse in the Blumenthal Performing Arts Center in Charlotte.
On Tuesday, Brown presented scriptural and scientific evidence to debunk the argument by gay activists that changes in sexual orientation are not possible.
Among the many scientific studies highlighted by Brown during the lecture were "Ex-Gays? A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation," by Stanton L. Jones and Mark A. Yarhouse.
"Even psychologists who strongly support same-sex ‘marriage’ agree that for some homosexuals change is possible," added Brown.
While Brown has worked extensively with groups that minister to homosexuals, he has seen the highly contentious issue get a little closer to home than he'd like.
On Saturday, Human Rights Campaign (HRC) – the world's largest homosexual advocacy organization – is giving a special "award" to Meyers Park Baptist Church in Charlotte for their decision to receive gays and lesbians into full church membership and leadership.
In response, Brown and a group of pastors from the Coalition of Conscience, held a news conference on Monday denouncing the church's stance on homosexuality.
Brown is going head to head with Harry Knox, director of Faith and Religion for the Human Rights Campaign and also a professing gay minister, in a dialogue Thursday night.
Brown said his group set up the dialogue in response to a challenge made last February by the HRC president at the annual HRC fundraising dinner in Charlotte. Following a week-long lecture series on "Homosexuality, the Church, and Society" delivered by Brown, HRC president Joe Solmonese said at the dinner that the organization was not afraid to "take on" Brown and "take back the conversation about religion and faith in America."
While opposed to churches affirming homosexuality, Brown urges them to reach out to those struggling with homosexuality with love and compassion. He also says the church should help them strive for holiness instead of heterosexuality.
"The church really needs to understand the struggles that homosexuals go through" in order to help them, said Brown. "It's not as easy as snapping your fingers."
But no matter how serious the "broken nature" is, "God can change you. That's the power of the Gospel," he concluded.
In his final lecture in the weeklong series on Friday, Brown will speak on how churches can minister to the gay and lesbian community.
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<<Oh really, Peter "wrote" what Jesus taught, and that provides enough evidence to suggests that Jesus (who never said anything about homosexuals) was using the Sodom and Gomorrah reference to demoralize homosexuals. >>
I wanted to also add that I don't know how you managed to believe that I said Jesus was using the S/G reference to demoralize homosexuals. You're twisting or misunderstanding what I said to fit your limited knowledgebase of rote answers.
What I'm saying is, you can look at Jesus support for OT law and Peter's, Jude's and Paul's beliefs and writings (all who had contact with Jesus and were taught by/with Jesus' disciples) to arrive at the scholarly conclusion of what Jesus believed about homosexuals and fornication outside of marriage and marriage only being between man and woman.
What do you think Jesus meant by sexual immorality below? What sexual experiences do you think Jesus meant were ok and not included in this?
Matthew 15
16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "
You can't believe in Jesus and believe homosexuality is ok. You're simply in denial if you're trying. And, you can't preach to believers about what Jesus said if you don't believe what he said in the first place and are not Christian and don't understand the Bible.
Heck, are we to believe it's ok to do whatever it isn't recorded that Jesus said blindly without looking to the writings of those he himself taught??
<<Oh really, Peter "wrote" what Jesus taught, and that provides enough evidence to suggests that Jesus (who never said anything about homosexuals) was using the Sodom and Gomorrah reference to demoralize homosexuals. >>
LOL. So did Paul and Jude. Yes, to the evidence, and no to "demoralization". Just because homosexual sex is a sin doesn't mean Jesus would "demoralize" homosexuals (had we a recounting of such an encounter), just as he didn't demoralize other sinners. Jesus is all about giving sinners hope.
The people who attempt to demoralize homosexuals are not acting as Christ-followers but are happy to confuse their human discomfort with homosexuality with their "false" sense of Christian righteousness in order to wrongly pick out and persecute homosexuals. They're using the sin to make them feel good about persecuting homosexuals whom they do not understand and not want to understand because they're afraid of them. That's human, not Christian, and thanks for bringing me back to my ORIGINAL point!
<<Funny that when one uses any sort of Bible scripture to justify their point of view with authority and relevance, the accusation always turns to "using a GAY site as evidence.">>
Your response doesn't make sense, so I'm not sure if you even understood the comment. No one's saying the pro-homosexual site is evidence of anything...except the proliferation of an incorrect argument about what Jesus thought the sin of S/G was.
Again, Jude and Peter had very close contact to Jesus, and both of them agreed that Sodom's sins included sexual immorality (fornication). Why would they believe and teach this if it were contrary to what Jesus believed? They wouldn't. Paul breaks it down even further based on his learning from Jesus disciples. So, we can believe with confidence that Jesus disciples were spreading the word of Jesus regarding beliefs on sexual immorality. If Jesus believed anything different, the disciples would've let us know, and probably had been GLAD to let us know the good news.
Again, Jesus said he was here not to abolish the law but to fulfill it, etc.
You're hanging onto a vain hope to sway beliefs based on what Jesus didn't say without understanding his complete words or grasping his knowledge of the OT and the teachings of his own disciples.
<<Jesus calls Peter "the rock" on which Jesus would found his church. Peter writes
1 Peter 4:3-4 3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you.
Jesus taught Peter, and Peter is saying debauchery, lust, orgies are sinful. This provides more insight into Jesus beliefs on sexual immorality.>>
Oh really, Peter "wrote" what Jesus taught, and that provides enough evidence to suggests that Jesus (who never said anything about homosexuals) was using the Sodom and Gomorrah reference to demoralize homosexuals. Eventhough the common understanding was against inhospitality, an act of rape against Angelic beings and a reference to offering two virgin daughters to stop a violent act against guests.
Peter was illiterate and could not have possibly authored ANYTHING.
Most critical scholars are skeptical that the apostle Simon Peter, the fisherman on the Sea of Galilee, actually wrote the epistle, because of the urbane cultured style of the Greek and the lack of any personal detail suggesting contact with the historical Jesus of Nazareth. The letter contains about thirty-five references to the Hebrew Bible, all of which, however, come from the Septuagint translation, an unlikely source for historical Peter the apostle (albeit appropriate for an international audience). The Septuagint was a Greek translation created at Alexandria for the use of those Jews who could not easily read the Hebrew and Aramaic of the Tanakh. A historical Jew in Galilee would not have heard Scripture in this form. If the epistle is taken to be pseudepigraphal, the date is usually cited as between 70-90 by scholars like Raymond E. Brown and Bart D. Ehrman, while a small number of scholars argue for an even later date. source http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_it_relevant_to_know_when_the_apostle_Peter_wrote_the_book_I_Peter
Peter didn't author any books. The books are attributed to him.
<<Nevertheless, Jesus, when referring to Sodom, wasn't implying that Sodom's sin was being unkind to strangers, as I've read on some pro-gay sites. That's a gross assumption and incorrect. Again, Jesus was saying that NOT to welcome the disciples would bring harsher judgement than Sodom will receive on judgement day. Jesus wasn't implying anything about what the sin of Sodom was.>>
Funny that when one uses any sort of Bible scripture to justify their point of view with authority and relevance, the accusation always turns to "using a GAY site as evidence."
So you can just excuse what the Bible in Ezekiel 16:49 says? "This was the sin of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."
Where's the bit about Sodom being an abomination for homosexuality?
And you can excuse what the Bible says in Jeremiah 22:3 "Thus says the LORD: Act with justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor anyone who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the alien, the orphan, and the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place."
My Bible cross references Sodom and Gomorrah, because there is no mention of homosexuality in the original tale, the NT uses the same reference when Jesus warns those who don't care about the sick, poor, hungry, orphaned and widows etc.
And you can excuse what the Bible says in Malachi 3:5 "Then I will draw near to you for judgment; I will be swift to bear witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired workers in their wages, the widow and the orphan, against those who thrust aside the alien, and do not fear me, says the LORD of hosts."
Hummmm, same cross references, and all about the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.
<<I follow the actual teachings of a faith much older than Paul's.
What does that statement mean? What teachings and faith are you talking about? Couldn't be Jesus, since that was only ~25 years before, and Paul shared Jesus belief directly taught by Jesus' disciples.
My mistake on referring to Jude as a writing before Jesus' time. Obviously, I'm not regurgitating. If I were, I wouldn't make mistakes in my understanding as I research this to tune this argument.
Nevertheless, Jesus, when referring to Sodom, wasn't implying that Sodom's sin was being unkind to strangers, as I've read on some pro-gay sites. That's a gross assumption and incorrect. Again, Jesus was saying that NOT to welcome the disciples would bring harsher judgement than Sodom will receive on judgement day. Jesus wasn't implying anything about what the sin of Sodom was.
Again, Jude and Peter had very close contact to Jesus, and both of them agreed that Sodom's sins included sexual immorality (fornication). Paul breaks it down even further based on his learning from Jesus disciples. So, we can believe with confidence that Jesus disciples were spreading the word of Jesus regarding beliefs on sexual immorality. If Jesus believed anything different, the disciples would've let us know, and probably had been GLAD to let us know the good news.
Also, I apologize for the "gay watchdog" comment. Not very Christian of me.
<<The closest one can come is through PAUL, however Paul received his understanding through what he calls a vision or revelation of Jesus through the Holy Spirit>>
That's incorrect. He didn't recieve his understanding or knowledge of Jesus' word during the revelation, only a command from Jesus to follow a few instructions to get him started.
Acts 9 "19...Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God."
So, according to scholars, this is only roughly 45-55AD (~25 years after Jesus' crucifixion), and he's learning directly from the disciples who were with Jesus.
If Paul is preaching about sexual immorality and was taught directly from the disciples who were with Jesus, then Paul wasn't just making it up that homosexuality, etc, was sexual immorality. Paul made it very clear and concrete.
Getting back to Sodom and Gomorrah, Peter and Jude (either Judas a disciple [not Iscariot] or Judas Jesus' own brother) who both had direct contact with Jesus both refer to the sexual immorality of Sodom and Gommorah.
Furthermore, Paul says the only way to overcome our sexual immorality and lust, if we must, is to marry...a woman.
H. Jesus calls Peter "the rock" on which Jesus would found his church. Peter writes
1 Peter 4:3-4 3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you.
Jesus taught Peter, and Peter is saying debauchery, lust, orgies are sinful. This provides more insight into Jesus beliefs on sexual immorality.
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I. Whenever Jesus talks about marriage, he always mentions man and woman like it was common sense and why would it be any different.
19:4-6 - "Haven't you read," he answered, "that the one who created them from the beginning 'made them male and female' and said: 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two separate people but one. No man therefore must separate what God has joined together."
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Sorry, though you're intelligent, I'm still not convinced you understand what you're saying and that you're not simply a gay watchdog watching over the Christian Post forums. :) You're possibly only accepting the parts of the Bible that you want to accept. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'd love to see your responses.
A good debate based on what Jesus said is interesting, though how can we assume too much about what Jesus didn't say?
1. I'm not claiming literalism, but that's another topic that is off-topic.
2. If you're a Christ follower, then, let's tune this further to Jesus' words. If you don't even truly believe those, like you say, then we can't really go further:
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A. Jesus says he's here to fulfill the law and that it's right to meet the law's demands. What's he talking about? "You must not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to complete them." What law?
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B. Who said this: "This is my dearly-loved son, in whom I am well pleased" after Jesus was baptised.
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C. Did Jesus believe he was God? Why did he answer yes to being the Christ? Why did he say not to tempt the Lord your God referring to himself?
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D. Do you believe Jesus performed miracles and was raised from the dead? If not, why do you even follow the teachings of Jesus if he's a liar?
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E. Why would Jesus claim that simple lusting over a woman was adultery? What's the harm in that?
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F. Why would a man divorcing make a woman make her an adulteress, according to Jesus?
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G. Jesus, very knowledgeable about past biblical writings, obviously knew of the sins of Sodom when he said a town that didn't welcome the disciples would fare better than "Sodom and Gomorrah" on judgement day. Wouldn't Jesus recognize the sins of Sodom to include fornication as listed in Jude 1 below. What does fornication mean to you? You can search the Greek meaning:
Jude 1.4, 7, 8 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities."
RE Fornication, here's a good tie in to marriage between man and woman.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20 & 1 Corinthians 7:1-2
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
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Split post...
<<Have you prayed for understanding of the following passages?>>
I don't ask that G-d help me understand the second or third century writings of a madman. Whom I believe claimed to have received an apocalypse from Jesus (which was likely a generic hallucination induced by guilt over participation in murders) devised to allow him to infiltrate Early Churches so he could make a living, achieve community status, and ultimately make a name for himself- not JESUS. I follow the actual teachings of a faith much older than Paul's. Confounding Christianity and mucking it up with irrational human beliefs serves me no purpose. The Gospel as Jesus stated was simply do unto others as you'd have them do unto you, feed, clothe and care for the poor, widow, orphan, disenfranchised and by doing the extra greater good for others you see and believe
G-d. Why else would he say if you have seen me you've seen the father- the father can be seen in others since we're made in G-d's image.
Please stop making assumptions about my understanding, my understanding comes from Jesus, and my understanding of G-d and it's more than can be contained in one argument.
<<If not, how can you simply regurgitate what you've read on pro-gay sites about what the Bible says about homosexuality and hope to hope to find any real understanding?>>
Regurgitation works both ways my friend. You might be regurgitating what you are TOLD in churches which have been expounding the same hatred for centuries by one form of bigot or another. Remarkably, the problem is compounded with evidence that implicates the very same organizations that produced and continue to produce tractate after tractate against Jews, slaves and women. Disguise it ALL you want, it's still far too obvious how you really think.
BTW, You can simply accuse me of posting without thinking, not having any real understanding but evidence of my knowledge came from critical thinking skills I have developed by reading commentary, literature, critical analysis written by scholars and pastors who are not GAY but see the issue closely associated to an anti-Jewish, anti-women, a pro-slavery mentality based strictly from fear, prejudice and a poor understanding of G-d. So before you assume that I only regurgitate and utilize progay sentiments found on internet sites, think again- you are merely making an assumption. In fact most of my understanding has come by attending of seminars, reading books and lectures led by scholars, doctors and theologians who greatly disagree with your understanding and not the internet. So your assumption is merely what it is- a guess based on unfounded evidence so you have to resort to attacks against me and my character.
<<Do you believe the Bible, or at least what Jesus and his disciples wrote in the Bible? >>
As a Christian, I am not required to BELIEVE the BIBLE. I am required to believe JESUS. If the Bible is to be believed, why is it filled with human feelings, human stories, human understanding and human errors? Jesus and his teachings make me the type of Christian I am- not human understanding of an error ridden book many people use to bash, harm, divide and disenfranchise others.
<<Have you prayed for understanding of the following passages?>>
Do you mean the passages PAUL or someone whom some attribute to PAUL and not what Jesus actually wrote?
Again if you want to argue the TRADITIONS early Christians started we can. If you want to argue what Jesus STATED, I'm all for it. Jesus didn't write PAUL'S speeches or letters, his doctrine is based on his REVELATION of Jesus, not his actual words.
Nowhere does Jesus say anything about homosexuality or premarital sex in the Bible. NOWHERE. The closest one can come is through PAUL, however Paul received his understanding through what he calls a vision or revelation of Jesus through the Holy Spirit-- he factually would never have had an actual meeting with the real Jesus, his doctrine is SECOND hand. If you want to say, CHRISTIAN traditions, creeds, sacraments etc. substantiate your belief that Jesus said homosexual or premarital sex is wron according to the bible, but literally, it is nowhere. I'm fine with that line of argument because it would be factual. But do not claim Bible Literalism then defer to Christian tradition, it's contradictory.
<<Let me take a step back. I really only wanted to originally comment to Christians that it's not Christian to lump our human discomfort with homosexuality with homosexuality the sin as an excuse to bash gays. That's not love according to Jesus.>>
But in doing so, you have done exactly what you tried not to do. You have cited what you consider "proof in the text" to be a reason to defend anti-homosexual sentiment. If you carefully examine your words, you'll see what I mean.
<<You're choosing to look at this in B/W without thinking critically about it, probably after reading pro-homosexual sites using these same arguments.>>
No, I am not seeing this as a B/W issue and I am using critical thinking to answer your responses, you however disagree with what is FACTUALLY in the text, what is being implied in the text and you are missing that there are other locations in the Bible which tell us why G-d did what G-d did and the explanation makes it to the NT as an analogy for why G-d considers people who disenfranchise the outcasts, widows, orphans, the poor and needy as abominable. Critical thinkers gather information from all senses, verbal and/or written expressions, reflection, observation, experience and reasoning. Critical thinking has its basis in intellectual criteria that go beyond subject-matter divisions and which include: clarity, credibility, accuracy, precision, relevance, depth, breadth, logic, significance and fairness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
<<Are you saying rape is implied in this story? >>
YES! It's as clear as a bell.
<<If so, then why were they wanting to rape the two males rather than the two virgin females.>>
Not TWO MALES, but in FACT, two angels. The "men" Lot takes into his home are FACTUALLY two ANGELS sent by G-d to destroy the city, because as it says in Ezekial 16:49 "This was the guilt (sin in some translations) of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy..." remember that?
The sin that cries out to heaven in Sodom came to the ears of G-d not because they were homosexuals, but because the Sodomites(agains the inhabitants of Sodom) had everything but they were arrogant, greedy and refused to assist those who were needy therfore G-d sought to remove them- it says so SEVERAL other places in the BIBLE including the NT. Some places I have listed already.
Let me take a step back. I really only wanted to originally comment to Christians that it's not Christian to lump our human discomfort with homosexuality with homosexuality the sin as an excuse to bash gays. That's not love according to Jesus.
But, I'll leave you with the final word on homosexuality being a sin. First, with marriage only between man and woman, what do you believe sexual immorality includes when warned against in the NT? Do you believe the Bible, or at least what Jesus and his disciples wrote in the Bible? If not, how can you simply regurgitate what you've read on pro-gay sites about what the Bible says about homosexuality and hope to hope to find any real understanding?
Have you prayed for understanding of the following passages?
I Corinthians 6:9-11
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Romans 1:18-32
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Here are a couple of articles by a very thoughtful, celebate, Christian gay man that you'd be interested to read:
http://www.gaychristian.net/rons_view.php
http://www.gaychristian.net/ron_onjesus.php
That's the final word from me. I wish you the best in your search for truth.
You're choosing to look at this in B/W without thinking critically about it, probably after reading pro-homosexual sites using these same arguments.
Are you saying rape is implied in this story? If so, then why were they wanting to rape the two males rather than the two virgin females. In fact, Lot considered that more wicked.
------------There is no reference to "sex" in that story. If you mean Lot offering his virgin daughters to the crowd of angry people, then FACTUALLY the reference would be an act of violence RAPE. Rape is a sexual assault, not homosexuality.-------
<<Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Jesus says any sexuality outside of marriage is immoral, including just the thoughts.>>
No he didn't say that, he said this...
Matthew chapter 5:27-28 (NLT) 27 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
ADULTERY is a crime against another man's property, David committed adultery when he seduced Bathsheba, took her as his wife and killed her husband Uriah in order to "fix" the situation. That's how Jesus understood adultery. In relation to women, if a woman gave her husband a writ of divorce she would be required to remain single. The Woman at the Well parable proves my point. Therefore, it is not a FACT to say "Jesus says any sexuality outside of marriage is immoral, including just the thoughts." Marriage in Jesus' vernacular was made a covenant with the act of sex. This is also why there are LAWS regarding RAPE i.e. Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Deuteronomy 22:28-29, Deuteronomy 22:23-24
BTW, There is no mention of "outside marriage" in the Bible, since traditional marriage as we now understand it, DID NOT exist.
It's in the Bible that any non-married sex is immoral, and there are references specifically to homosexuality, including in Sodom where Lot stayed.
There is no reference to "sex" in that story. If you mean Lot offering his virgin daughters to the crowd of angry people, then FACTUALLY the reference would be an act of violence RAPE. Rape is a sexual assault, not homosexuality.
You are terribly confused in regard to what this story implies. Both Ezekiel and Isaiah indicate in detail what the sin of Sodom was and exactly why God saw fit to destroy the city.
Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Jesus says any sexuality outside of marriage is immoral, including just the thoughts.
It's in the Bible that any non-married sex is immoral, and there are references specifically to homosexuality, including in Sodom where Lot stayed.
Genesis 19:5-8
5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
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Leviticus 18:22
22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
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Leviticus 20:13
13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination
If God wanted man to be partnered with man, God would've made a man for Adam and allowed them to reproduce.
As you can see from the scriptures, God was angry at Sodom and Gomorrah because they had plenty but denied the needy. It doesn't prove one's point to condemn Sodom and Gomorrah for sexual immorality, when it's obvious they were inhospitible to the needs of the most vulnerable within their own commun ities- i.e. widows, orphans, the poor. Jesus reflects a similar sentiment when he states I was hungry and you fed me, naked and you clothed me, thiursty and you gave me drink. He also points out in other scriptures, that those who have the ability to help others but don't are like the Sodomites(the people who inhabited the town, not a reference to homosexuals) but judgment will be more lenient on Sodom than on the generations to come, because they have an example which they refuse to follow. Traditionally, religion has corrupted the scriptures in order to justify personal prejudice against homosexuals, and iut's evident with the twisting of the Sodom and Gomorrah story.
<<<Is homosexual sin worse than adultery or heterosexual lust (also adultery according to Jesus)? Not anywhere I can find in the Bible. Cities were destroyed for widespread sexual immorality of all types, not merely homosexuality.>>>
What cities were destroyed for sexual immorality? The fact is traditions have put sexual immorality as the cause which actual counters what Ezekiel and Isaiah say. FACT, The Bible states in Ezekial 16:49 "This was the guilt (sin in some translations) of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."
Isaiah 1:10-17 states "Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom! Listen to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah! What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. When you come to appear before me, who asked this from your hand? Trample my courts no more; bringing offerings is futile; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and calling of convocation -- I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity. Your new moons and your appointed festivals my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow." NRSV.
My last addendum is that marriage is not the solution to magically make homosexuality righteous. We're told that marriage is only between a man and a woman.
I honestly think homosexuals have a more difficult public struggle against their sinful nature than do we heterosexuals who are more accepted by the human nature.
I should add that Jesus commands us to love everyone. It's very important. Jesus didn't tell us we must only love non-practicing sinners. No. We have to love like Jesus loved. If we couldn't love practicing sinners, who then could we love? We couldn't love anyone, because no one is perfect.
FACT: The Bible condemns all unmarried sexuality.
FACT: The Bible says all sin is of nature.
The proof that homosexuals are born gay is that the Bible says all sin is of nature. By fact that marriage is only to be between a man and woman, means homosexuality as well as unmarried sex or sexual thoughts of any type including heterosexual, are sinful. Based on that, I'm a born heterosexual sinner given my lust issue.
Is homosexual sin worse than adultery or heterosexual lust (also adultery according to Jesus)? Not anywhere I can find in the Bible. Cities were destroyed for widespread sexual immorality of all types, not merely homosexuality.
We're all tempted according to our lusts. God says he gives us a way out of every temptation, including hetero or homosexual. So, while I don't believe a hetero luster or a homesexual luster can change those stripes, I think we'll all have a rough life fighting those natural temptations.
Now, as a hetero luster, I'm not as contemptable to Christians as a homosexual luster. Why? Because we're confusing our human discomfort with homesexuality (considered a weakness) with homosexuality as sin, and our need to have a good reason not to accept homosexuality, I guess. We're lumping the human discomfort together with the sin and calling it "ok to not love the homosexual sinner". But, is it ok to not love the heterosexual sinner or the murderer or the thief? If that's the case, who then can we possibly love, since all of us our sinners, and I dare say we're all immorally sexual sinners thanks to our fleshly nature.
I'm a hetero with a hetero lust problem. Can I be a Christian if I haven't conquered that? Can you be a Christian facing your own non-homosexual immorality?
<<<Is there anywhere God said male and male? No, I'm sorry but even in the beginning God made male and female to be together and "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.>>>
I disagree with the unscriptural teaching that the Genesis account of the Creation of Adam and Eve gives scriptural warrant for the false Complementarian teaching that God intended to outlaw, forbid, prohibit, every other kind of marriage relationship, based on the Genesis account. That is reading into scripture something scripture assuredly does not say.
Otherwise why would God only create Adam and Eve providing that "incest" would be the only explanation for God's manner in which to fill the Earth. Where did all the people come from if not Adam and Eve and their offspring? Incest, if you are a "bible literalist," is the only way population could have occurred.
BTW,
God never said anywhere in scripture that He will only bless a marital relationship exactly like the Adam and Eve model. In fact GOD curses THAT relationship as soon as they receive enlightenment between Good and Evil by eating the of the forbidden tree(an allegory by the way to explain how humans reached knowledge of good and evil!)
<<<We need to repent, turn way from our sins and follow the way of the master.>>>
I really think you misunderstand most of what I post, Tom. And surely I would never tell someone that is a Christian that they need to repent. Why? To put it simply, God calls me to repentance, not others, not imaginary humans who "witness" via the internet. You see, it's a rather limiting and impotent image you present of God, God is hardly as little and puny as you make him out to be. And I am sure one day it might come back to haunt you.
The word homosexual is traced in etymology to 1869. So NOWHERE in anything related to the Bible, would Paul, Jesus, Moses or God have used the word homosexual- the word was obviously placed in the text after 1869- oh and BTW, The KJV Bible didn't even use the word homosexual, so obviously those who believe God was anti-gay, believe it because they are parroting their parents or minister. Prove if you can that God wrote the Bible, because if God wrote the Bbile why is an all knowing, all present, all over kinda diety unaware of so many things that we have today- he'd have been able to see into the future and coin phrases. Oh but he can't because he is limited to the small minds and bigoted opinions of those who insist they speak for him.
I didn't say you were wrong. But, God didn't write the Bible. Human beings did. And in many, many cases, many, many different people copied, recopied and rerecopied translations of a translation.
And BTW, in all sincerety and fact, there is nothing in the Bible that states Jesus' held the opinion that homosexuality is sinful. NOWHERE. The earliest translation where the word homosexual is used, would have to be a more modern translation of the KJV of the Bible.
the problem qt is that we are not wrong. God in His word does call homosexaulity a sin and sin can cause you to go to the place called hell. Did you not read where Jesus said that, narrow is the way that lead to eternal life? and wide is the road that leads to destruction. We need to repent, turn way from our sins and follow the way of the master. Jesus Christ. Gods Blessing on ya
In Christ Tom
I’m not going to get into the semantics of the six passages in the Bible that can even remotely be construed as a disapproval of homosexuality. Why? The King James Bible has about 774,776 words. The six aforementioned passages are comprised of, at most, 50 to 60 words. That’s about 0.00006% (that’s 6 one hundred-thousandths) of a percent of the entire Bible. The REST of the Bible is filled with verses, passages and parables about loving one another. The whole point of the Bible is to teach people to LOVE one another. Judgment is God’s sole responsibility, not yours or mine.
[IF] you insist on using Leviticus as your basis for legislation, let’s go ahead and amend the Constitution to strip all marriage rights from adulterers*, for that verse follows the ‘lie with another man’ verse that you so frequently cite as divine instruction to ban homosexuality.
So to all the evangelicals, conservatives, religious and ‘moral’ leaders out there, I pose this final suggestion. If I am wrong, and God truly believes that homosexuality is wrong, then I have sinned against myself. But if you are wrong, you have sinned against me and millions of others in the world. Which do you think is worse?
adulterer= a person who has divorced someone and remarried someone else! Adultery is a perpetual sin which creates enmity between G-d and the person who has committed this act!
http://outandaboutnewspaper.com/article.php?id=2447
So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:27)
God created them "male and female" not male and male.
And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gensis 2:18)
who did God make to help man (male)?
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2:22-25)
Is there anywhere God said male and male? No, I'm sorry but even in the beginning God made male and female to be together and "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8)
it is amazing to me after some 6 to 14000 years (depending), someone in the recent years has uncovered the secret meaning written in the Bible, that homosexaulity is permitted by God's word. Man I think I should just chuck this whole Christianty thing and go back to the way I was. Oh Wait I can't He has proven to me over and over that His word is the same today as yesterday as it will be tomorrow, It doesn't change. His word is Jesus and He said if we love Him we will follow His commands, which are the same as His Fathers. And He says that Homosexaulity like many other sins are just that sin. Period. We all need Jesus Christ to accept Him as Lord and to turn away from our sins. To seek His kingdom and His righteousness. Sorry your wrong Rayco His word doesn't change. We will be praying for ya.
Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
Raycol said: "After years of research, I have come to the conclusion that the Bible approves of men being emotionally attracted to men and it does not condemn any form of sex between men except for male-male penetration. Nevertheless..."
Response: The Holy Spirit will not lead anyone to that conclusion. It is a conclusion filled with deception and death.
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16)
"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Timothy 3:7)
An answer to those who say that the Bible condemns homosexuality.
After years of research, I have come to the conclusion that the Bible approves of men being emotionally attracted to men and it does not condemn any form of sex between men except for male-male penetration.
Nevertheless, men penetrating men is okay if no one is harmed. Full details, including the Biblical basis of this reasoning, can be seen on www.gaysandslaves.com.
But I always do enjoy listening to non-Christians try to understand what they cannot understand. The things of the Spirit are beyond the carnally minded.
I do know that Jesus said that marriage was between a man and a woman. So who am I to argue the Son of God?
I do love. I love my neighbor enough to warn him of danger. I love him enough to tell him that what he's doing will destroy him. "
you dont even know this mythical person. you dont know, much less honor his life experiences that brought him to where he is today, which is part of fellowship. the only thing you know is his behavior violates your understanding of the regulation. and because it violates your understanding of the regulation there must be some kind of destruction, even though you have no witness to it and have never seen it, and can give no credible witness that this destruction even exists
two committed married people bonded by love, devotion,respect and trust that is cemented thru sexual intimacy. a sexual intimacy that is an affirmation of the that love, devotion,respect and trust. is this not the identical description of heterosexual marriage. a sexual intimacy expressed in ways that heterosexual couples have been allowed to indulged in without recrimination and judgement. is this what you are trying to save someone from?
in the spirit of christ whom god has put everything under his authority, in indulging in exactly the same thing as any heterosexual married couple how is he being destroyed.
if god is love, and the fruit of the relationship is the fruit of the spirit....................where is the destruction.
did jesus not say by their fruit you will know them? by what fruit of what spirit are they being destroyed.?
I do love. I love my neighbor enough to warn him of danger. I love him enough to tell him that what he's doing will destroy him.
i know of only one standard..........love. i know of only three commandments: love god, love your neighbor as yourself(the summation of all the laws, the fulfillment of the law being also love), and love one another as christ loved us.
what commandments and standards are you referring to?
Nope it is not a double standard at all it is the standard. Sex and marriage are reserved for a man and a women period. anything other then that is against the commandments of God, His standard not ours. His. what is more John say in His book that Jesus is the word. So it is also Jesus standard the word of God. So sorry it is not a double standard at all it is His standard for us to live by. Gods Blessing In Christ Tom
"But no matter how serious the "broken nature" is, "God can change you. That's the power of the Gospel,"
Amen. I wish religious homosexuals would actually believe in the changing power of God.
feet,
Who says marriage has to be about procreation? It's about love, right? That's rather old-fashon of you. If that's the case, what kind of children can gay people produce between themselves?
my understanding is that marriage of those in the same family is not allowed because of the possiblity of retarded progeny.
feet,
What about the brother who is in love with his sister? Are you denying their right to express their love...or even get married?
tom
that is interesting. with heterosexual married couples frequency and satisfaction of intimate relations is indicative of a heathy marriage. diminished sexual relations has always been indicative of alienation and disconnection in the relationship. and if not dealt with could lead to seperation.
so how is it that in a heterosexual committed relationship, sexual realations is encouraged. but with those homosexual married couples at my mcc church sex intimacy is condemned as sin.
do you think this double standard is of christ?
feet,
Even the demons are committed to each other.
feet I don;t have too the Scriptures speak for themselves on this matter. and to answer your question to lewr2 yes I would if they are actively engaging in "gay sex" then they are no better then any other sinner that has refused to repent of thier sin and seek Gods forgiveness by accepting Jesus as Lord. They will be judge like all the rest. Sorry, Gods blessings in Christ Tom
lewr2
you would compare those who bond with the same sex out of mutual love, respect, devotion, and trust for a shared life together with wife beaters, alcoholics, slanders, and murders. those of a different orientation, who have never been found lacking in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. in this comparison having not been found to be less a father, mother ,doctor, friend, counselor,soldier,pastor,neighbor, administrator. could you you say the same about alcoholics, wife beaters,slanderers,and murderers with those that are not?
why the difficulty to produce a valid witness of and thru the spirit?
TOM
perhaps in your support of our two brothers in christ, you will give a witness thru and in the spirit that will validate their beliefs as to what scripture says.
God help those in homosexual sins. You are forbidden in at least 4 instances with two that speak of death. Your arguments are baseless, but because you want your ears tickled, you continue. I pray that you find Christ. Your sin is no less than an wife beaters, alcoholic, slanderer, or murderer. If you do not REPENT and TURN and FLEE from your behaviour, God have mercy on your souls.
Ah Wilderness,Jesus4me and Prophet you all are a refreshing dip into the truth of Jesus Christ. It is a shame that the Words of Scripture that you have used fall on the death ears of those like feet sheq and those like them who are walking contary to what Scripture says. I want to commend you all for your preservence and Love for the truth that comes from Jesus Himself. May the Lord of Creation Bless you all and may He pour His wisdom even more upon you so that those who are walking in darkness will see the True light of lights and will humble themself at Jesus feet and ask for foriveness, before it is too late. To turn from their sins all of them and walk in His Holiness not ours, coverered by the blood of Him who died and rose again from the grave to sit at the right hand of God the Father, To Judge all those who are in oppostion to His commands as brought forth thru His word the Holy Bible. Gods Blessing on you as you continue your wonderfull testominies and your fruit becomes more and more bountifull. Praise be to God there are those who will stand up and declare His Truth to those who would wish to change it. In Christ Tom
prophet
those that marry at mcc church are devoted to each other.
“A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another” ( John 13:34).
That verse does not justify the abomination of homosexuality. Jesus Christ never loved anyone in a homosexual way.
All kidding aside, I pray daily for those who are under bondage to the sins of immorality, perversion, fornication, homosexuality, adultery, addictions and such. I pray that God would help them overcome their sins and draw close to Him. That they would desire above all else to live a holy life, free from the bondages of sin.
feet,
I don't believe that cheating on my wife is a sin. So, since I don't acknowledge that it is a sin, I am free from any judgement therein. Thanks for the free ride! And I was beating myself up about sin. If I don't want to quit sinning, just say that it's not a sin, therefore I cannot be held liable for my actions.
as for the rest of jude, those of us who belong to mcc church are devoted to christ and his spirit and praise him as our sovereign lord.
the inhabitants of sodom and gommorah gave themselves over to sexual debasement that was obviated by their acts of gang rape in genesis.
anything that is ungodly falls outside of the love that we are called to have for each other in the spirit of christ..........loving god , loving one's neighbor and oneself, and one another as christ loved us.
i concur with jude . be in constant prayer with the holy spirit, live the life of love called to by christ. and in all things be in thanks, praise and of the spirit.
my response to 1cor 5 is that we all are guilty of being slanders, idolaters of some fashion, and in our hearts sexually immoral at sometime, let alone physically immoral. so saying that my understanding is that, those who knowingly commit sin, acknowledge that they know it is a sin, and knowing it is a sin still have no compunction about stopping their behavior, should be asked to leave the church.
in regards to homosexuality those of that orientation not only say they are not sinning, but that scripture in no way condemns homosexuality as a sin.
and those that disagree, have only their unsubstantiated beliefs to stand on, because they are without spirit witness, that would show otherwise.
ttherefore one can excricate them from church out of human consensus, but never out of devotion to christ.
ephesians 5: 1Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.
8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
continued
15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
paul prefaces what the first part is about.......LIVE A LIFE OF LOVE..................THE SECOND PART IS ABOUT HOW YOU LIVE THAT LIFE OF LOVE, LOVE OF GOD, LOVE OFNEIGHBOR AND SELF, LOVING ONE ANOTHER AS CHRIST HAS LOVED US.
it is directing those of the church when and how to associate with those who are not believers. it says do not collaborate or associate with those who speak with empty words, because they are subject
to god's wrath.
Ephesians 5:3-7 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Footnotes:
Ephesians 5:5 NU-Text reads For know this.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[a]
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 5:13 Deuteronomy 17:7; 19:19; 22:21, 24; 24:7
continued Book of Jude:
Maintain Your Life with God
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
Glory to God
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you[f] from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior,[g]
Who alone is wise,[h]
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,[i]
Both now and forever.
Amen.
Footnotes:
a. Jude 1:1 NU-Text reads beloved.
b. Jude 1:4 NU-Text omits God.
c. Jude 1:12 NU-Text and M-Text read along.
d. Jude 1:22 NU-Text reads who are doubting (or making distinctions).
e. Jude 1:23 NU-Text adds and on some have mercy with fear and omits with fear in first clause.
f. Jude 1:24 M-Text reads them.
g. Jude 1:25 NU-Text reads To the only God our Savior.
h. Jude 1:25 NU-Text omits Who . . . is wise and adds Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
i. Jude 1:25 NU-Text adds Before all time.
continued Book of Jude:
Apostates Depraved and Doomed
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
Apostates Predicted
16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.
Jude 1 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Jude 1
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
To those who are called, sanctified[a] by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.
Contend for the Faith
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Old and New Apostates
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
feet,
You use grace as an occasion to sin. That is not scriptural (as quoted in my previous post). Grace is sufficient only for those who ARE legitimately trying to overcome their sins. For those who are reaching for the prize. It's not sufficient for those who just want to play church. It's not for those who want to CONTINUE in sin, but still feel okay about it. Their conscience is numb to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And they follow a false religion.
feet,
Nice scripture. Please don't take it out of context please. Read the first part of Romans chapter 6 which continues on to expound on what you just quoted.
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
im not saying change your beliefs.
what im saying is..................you might consider rereading it...................... that sin is not an issue as to who is of christ, its not even about having the correct understanding about the law..................................its about grace thru faith.
that its not whether i am successful in struggling with sin or not,but intead its about having faith in christ that what ever sin i do have in my life, it is cover with his blood. and it is thru grace thru that faith that we receive salvation and are of christ.
if your understanding is any different, please show the scriptures that support it.
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world” (Titus 2:11, 12).
The grace of God is a teacher, teaching us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live soberly, righteously, and godly. If we say that we are a Christian that has the grace of God in our lives, but we deny and walk contrary to the teachings of grace, then we speak as a liar.
In addition, the grace of God will teach us that homosexuality is a sin, an abomination. If we think otherwise, then we are sitting under the tutelage of a substitute teacher, a liar and a deceiver, whose lips are on fire with the flames of hell.
"yes, Yes, yeS, YES -- Guess my keyboard works a little differently. And no one who understands what it truly means to be Christian fears the day of salvation. For he/she doesn't just know the words, but also actually learned something from them."
it is good to hear someone speak with your words. you are referring to the living water of john 4 from which we never thirst.
WHY ARE THERE STILL AMONG US, THOSE WHO BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF WORKS THAT EITHER MAKES MORE ACCEPTABLE, MAKES THEM MEMBERS OF A GROUP DESIGNATED TRUE CHRISTIANS?
CONSIDER WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS :
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
CONTINUED
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
THEREFORE .............................4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith(WE BEING JUSTIFIED, BY GRACE THRU FAITH) is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered. THE SUFFERING THAT LED MARTIN LUTHER TO HIS UNDERSTANDING OF JUSTIFICATION WAS THIS. HE WAS AWARE OF THE SIN IN HIS HEART SO MUCH SO, THAT BEING IN A MONASTIC SETTING, HE SPENT HOURS A DAY ON HIS KNEES REPENTING OF EVERY DAILY SIN. HOWEVER HE FOUND THAT HE COULD NEVER ABLE TO COVER THEM ALL. AND NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES HE REPENTED OF A PARTICULAR SIN, IT CONTIUED TO SPRING UP DAILY AS IF HE HAD NEVER REPENTED AT ALL. IT WAS THIS PAIN OF HOW REPLETE HIS SIN, THAT HE WAS SHOWN THRU THE HOLY SPIRIT, JUSTIFICATION THRU THE BLOOD.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[b]
WHY PUT YOURSELVES AND OTHERS UNDER THE LAW, DO WE NOT RECEIVE OUR SALVATION THRU THE PROMISE, AND WHERE THERE IS LAW THERE IS WRATH.
ROMANS 4: 13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
AND EVEN THOUGH ROMANS 10 SAYS TO REFRAIN FROM THIS SPECIFIC JUDGEMENT, THERE ARE STILL THOSE WHO CONTINUE TO SAY THIS BROTHER IS NOT SAVED BECAUSE OF THIS SIN OR THAT SIN OR BECAUSE OF REPETITIVE SIN..........................................WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DO YOU RECEIVE ANY ASSURANCE FROM THIS BEHAVIOR?
wilderness
what scriptures lead you to have that understanding?
I pray daily for those who are in bondage to sin. It keeps them from a true relationship with God. I wish for all to have a deep, intimate relationship with Him. But to do so would require removing oneself from sin. To offer up our bodies as a living sacrifice. Setting aside those things that easily beset us. That's what I work on daily in my own life. Even in the small things, small sins. Lying. Doing something out of selfish gain. Laziness. Complacency. Fear. I strive to remove all those from my life in order to attain a much higher and worthy prize: The image of Christ.
I wish for those in bondage to lust, anger, pride, addictions, homosexuality, fornication, adultery, idolatry to be freed to truly know God and His power to change a person, as He has done me.
i say it because ive seen it tear families and family relationmships apart, ..........................do you have a witness or are you just arm chair ruminating.
yes, Yes, yeS, YES -- Guess my keyboard works a little differently. And no one who understands what it truly means to be Christian fears the day of salvation. For he/she doesn't just know the words, but also actually learned something from them.
'Can You Be Gay and Christian?' Poses Conservative Activist
no
No
nO
NO
No matter how you type it or how you say it, the answer is still no.
Humble yourself today and call on God, asking Him...
to open your ears to hear truth
to open your eyes to see truth
to open your heart to receive truth
There is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun. Don't wait. Today is the day of salvation.
besides, feet,
Who are you to say that sex between a 20 year old and 15 year old is rape when it's consensual? Back in biblical times people were married as young as 13 (some cultures still do so). So, apparently, the legality of the adult/minor thing isn't so much based on morals as it is a opinion of a particular group.
Feet,
You forget the siblings (and yes, parent/adult child) who are in love with each other. You, in your narrow mind, always view incest as a parent and a minor. That is no different than rape. Just as if a gay man had sex with a non-related minor (which happens all to often).
feet,
"my understandijng is that incest exists because of an absence of love................both self love and love of another."
The same could be said for homosexuals.
But, then, you're understanding is wrong. Incest exists out of "love" for each other.
are you saying that acts parents forcing sex on their children is an act of love. and brothers and sisters engaging in sex with each other is an act of devotion. then you have a witness that i am without.
in the mcc church that i belong, my witness is that those married are deeply devoted to each other.
The last time I looked, having sex with a guy was considered a female quality. So, yes, homosexsuality is a sin.
that has absolutely everything to do with cultural and absolutely nothing to do with the eternal.
feet,
"my understandijng is that incest exists because of an absence of love................both self love and love of another."
The same could be said for homosexuals.
But, then, you're understanding is wrong. Incest exists out of "love" for each other.
The last time I looked, having sex with a guy was considered a female quality. So, yes, homosexsuality is a sin.
feet,
"The word used in that scripture from 1 Corinthians 6:9 translates into the word "effeminate". Meaning to have homosexual tendencies. "
if this is the case, then the conservative christians have got it all wrong, because they have stressed that homosexuality is not a sin unless there is sexual relations. but according to you any part homosexuality that would display feminine affectation would be a sin.......................would this also include heterosexual men(i personnally know severa)l who have female affectations.
and then there are those homosexuals who display no female affectation whatsoever...........................would that mean their homosexuality would be okay.
my understandijng is that incest exists because of an absence of love................both self love and love of another.
by the way..........were you aware that moses's father married his aunt.
Amram and Jochebed, the parents of Moses, spent their adult lives in an incestuous marriage relationship, which, in spite of the forbidden incest, was richly blessed by God.
Amram married his paternal aunt, his father’s sister, Jochebed.
Their relationship is forbidden in the Holiness Code.
“Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s sister [your aunt]: she is thy father’s near kinswoman.” Leviticus 18:12.
“And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother’s sister, nor of thy father’s sister [your aunt]: for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.” Leviticus 20:19.
“And Amram took him Jochebed his father’s sister to wife [his aunt]; and she bare him Aaron and Moses...” Exodus 6:20.
And feet,
Please, if you're going to use the "that's the old testament" argument, then please acknowledge that incestuous relationships are not a sin. Neither is beastiality.
feet,
The word used in that scripture from 1 Corinthians 6:9 translates into the word "effeminate". Meaning to have homosexual tendencies.
jesus4me
i went to biblegateway.com and studied all eightteen tranlations for 1cor 6:10 and 1tim. out of 18 translations 11 or 12 had transposed the word "homosexual" for the original king james translation "abusers of themseves with mankind" (the literal translation of the greek words is "male bed") i emailed all the publishers requesting all reference material that directed the translators to make the tranposition. almost all sent return emails thanking me for my request and said they would get with there translators. after that i have received no additional emails. so to date, i have yet to hear one single credible accounting for the transposition.
"abusers of themselves" bears no resemblance to the human bonding of 2 people of the same sex motivated by mutual respect, devotion, attraction, and trust for a committed life together, the same as with heterosexual bonding.
those who would say otherwise, offer no credible witness that would prove otherwise.
that leaves lev which is under the old covenant and romans which is about shamebased passions which also bears no resemblance to the same bonding. and again, there is no credible spirit witness to indicate otherwise.
feetxxx:
I'm so glad you quoted those Scriptures written by Paul in Romans and Ephesians.
Since Paul obviously had a very big part of the New Testament, and was commissioned by the Lord Jesus Christ himself as an Apostle, I thought I'd also quote some very valid writings of Paul inspired by the same Holy Spirit that inspired Him to write on Salvation in the Book of Romans and the Book of Ephesians. This is why we need to be like the Bereans with the Scriptures , and accept the Whole Counsel of God into one's life. Nothing more nothing less. Just like I've always told others - Don't add to it (the Word), and don't take away from it (the Word).
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
Ephesians 5:3-7 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Footnotes:
Ephesians 5:5 NU-Text reads For know this.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[a]
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 5:13 Deuteronomy 17:7; 19:19; 22:21, 24; 24:7
Accept the repentant sinner; Absolutely yes!!!!!!! Accept the unrepentant as a brother? God forbid! This goes against God's Word.
So it goes. You speak scriptures, and they accuse you of judging. You speak words of admonition, and they ask where's the scripture. No wonder God said the wisdom of man is foolishness before Him.
prophet
what scripture is that, i am not familiar with it?
The spirit behind the words....
That God loves us so much that He wants to have a relationship with us. But He is holy, and sin cannot abide in His presene. And those who hold on to sin will not see the face of God. So He says to the murderer "Put away your murder, and take on peace."
He says to the liar, "Put away your lying lips, and put on truth."
He says to the thief, "Put away covetousness, and put on giving."
And He says to the adulterer, fornicator, luster, and homosexual "Put away corrupt lust, and put on purity."
Until we do, we will be separated from the One who loves us the most. And the day will come quickly when we will find our chance has fleed, and we are eternally separated.
"Come out from among them, " He says, "Come out and be separate."
Well, you can pray for me all you want--and I can only do the same for you in the hope that someday you might come to find the true message beyond the dogma in those words.
what is it about ephesians 2:8-9 that makes it so hard to understand..............................8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
what could be more specific that"not by works". not by works of understanding, evangelism, prayer, repentance................not by anything that we do are we saved. our salvation comes from what christ did on the cross..................period. it not about getting it right..................its about............ in spite of whether we get it right or not, that we believe that christ is our lord ansd savior and that he died for our sins and it is his blood that saves us.......................and not something we do.
did paul included himself when he wrote:
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]
continued
OR
ROMANS 7: 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. .....................................24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
can anyone credit themselves with more than paul credited himself.
surely everyone is aware that the majority of regulations for sacrifices to god, in leviticus, was for UNKNOWN SIN.
AND FOR THE REST, WHO MAY BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE MORE SINLESS THAN PAUL CONSIDER......................ROMANS 10: 5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
shequon wrote:
"To that I say... Don't be surprised if you see me, the teacher, and some gay folks too. And your place may not be as secure as you think, j4me, not if you've read the whole book yet haven't learned a single thing. "
You're only partially right in your statment. In heaven there will be FORMER gay folks, FORMER, fornicators, FORMER liars, FORMER name your sin before Christ. However, NOWHERE in the Bible does it condone coming to Christ and continuing to sin in a lifestyle God has clearly prohibited. So, all the "picking and choosing" Scripture you and your religion teacher do can't negate the fact that what the Bible calls sin is sin. Case in point.
And again i say to you and to any other "liberal" scholar who would not take the Word of God for what it is - The revealed Truth of God as being inherrent, infallible and without error:
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1 Corinthians 1:26-28 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:5-7 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
I don't believe I or Chris, or Prophet, or any other Born Agin Christian here is out to win an argument with you or your religion teacher. We just quote you the facts from the Word of God. Your choice is to accept it or deny it. Judging from your response, you have denied the Whole Counsel of God by picking and choosing. I suggest you and your religion teacher repent, because you have not denied the words of men, but the Holy Word of God as a whole.
I will be praying for you to come to the knowledge of the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Gospel.
“And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made” (Genesis 2:2).
God’s work concerning a proper relationship is male and female. God gave Adam a female, not a man. God ended His work. Jesus Christ did not come to create a new form of relationship intimacy, male to male, or to condone such activity.
“But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female” (Mark 10:6).
jesus4me says "And, your religion teacher's teaching you won't get you into heaven either Shequon."
To that I say... Don't be surprised if you see me, the teacher, and some gay folks too. And your place may not be as secure as you think, j4me, not if you've read the whole book yet haven't learned a single thing.
Shequon wrote:
"Hey Chris. I, for one, freely admit to "picking and choosing". I had an outstanding (and very tough!) religion teacher who took her faith very seriously. Over a full school year, she took us through every book of the bible, pointing out parts that contradict each other, and parts that have been translated in different ways. We were taught to look at the many different sources with a critical eye, and were warned of those who would insist that every word was Fact and there were no contradictions. I wished she posted here, because she would eat some of the arguments I've seen here for lunch."
Shequon, you can pick and choose all you want, and so can your religion religion won't save you, and that is a fact. Furthermroe, your religion teacher can have all the manmade degrees from Harvard, Oxford, etc, and it won't get them to heaven if they don't have a true relationship with Christ. And, your religion teacher's teaching you won'tget you into heaven either Shequon.
This is what the Bible says concerning your statements:
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1 Corinthians 1:26-28 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:5-7 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
I don't believe I or Chris, or Prophet, or any other Born Agin Christian here is out to win an argument with you or your religion teacher. We just quote you the facts from the Word of God. Your choice is to accept it or deny it. Judging from your response, you have denied the Whole Counsel of God by picking and choosing. I suggest you and your religion teacher repent, because you have not denied the words of men, but the Holy Word of God as a whole.
I will be praying for you to come to the knowledge of the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Gospel.
contniued to ifeelfine:
REPENT, for the KINGDOM OF GOD IS NEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ifeelfine wrote:
"Prophet - Quit dodging the question: How can you be against slavery and yet still hold to a literal reading of the Bible? I know the answer is you can't which is why you refuse to answer. "
ifeelfine, i ask you for the third time, quit dodging my previous question in response to your accusations of me. I also have to say that you as well as every other reviosionist can morally relativise the Bible till your face turns blue. The Bible did speak about slavery. In fact, it was common place in Egypt, Rome, Persia, Babylon, etc. It was commonplace in those times. Just like it's commonplace for you to be a "slave" to your employer. You are boud to your employer to do your job to the best of your ability and you get paid for the services you render to your employer. As Christians we are no longer slaves to sin, but bond slaves to Christ. We work for our employer's but are yet bound even to a higher authority-God himself, this is why when we work it is to be done as unto te Lord, and not as to please men. In the Roman Empire people had slaves. In fact, the Disciple Luke was a doctor and yet owned by a wealthy family. Study your biblical history. Also, God never endorsed the mistreatment of slaves (employees) (workers) (maids, house keepers), etc......You can check that out for yourself in the Word as well. So what's your point to prophet? You are the hypocrite my friend. You yourself proved to be a hypocrite when you say you don't take the Bible literally, but yet you do take it literally and believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, was God incarnate, is the Son of God, and lived a sinless life. So what's right ifeelfine? Is Jesus the incarnate Son of God or not? Does not the Bible say this literally? Yes it does, and it also says literally both in New and Old Testament that homosexuality as well as fornication, adultery, and all other sexual immorality is against God's plan and order of things; it is part of the fallen nature caused by man followig sin instead of God. Exactly Prophet's, mine and every other "conservative" "fundamentalist" Christians view to you on this site. It is you who are a hypocrite. If you want an answer as to why God allowed slavery in the New Testament and in the New Testamet, and why He commissioned His servant the Apostle Paul to address slavery, immorality and homosexuality included in that immorality in the Books of Romans, I Corinthians, and I and II Timothyt ake it up with God the Creator. I didn't write the Book, I just choose to follow it based on God's goodness, and His order of things. Why do you take beef with those who stand true to the Word of God. God's ways are higher than our ways. You will NEVER have ALL the answer to the "why's" in life. In this life we see dimly, but in heaven we will see the whole picture of God's overall plans.
ifeelfine,
I would be careful about your comment. As I've pointed out, if you do not take the Bible literal, than you do not believe in Jesus' deity, or anything that He did. And you also do not take it literal that incest is a sin (just as you claim about homosexuality). Which goes way back to my original point that you're a hypocrite if you won't support those involved in incestuous relationships based on your narrow view.
I do not know why God allowed slavery in the old testament. I never claimed to know everything. But what I do know, I know. Homosexuality is a sin. God, how I feel for those who are intrapped by that sin. I know all too well the power of sexual sins, and the affect they have. And though I may have compassion for them, I have none for "believers" who call sin good, and have no faith in the Word of God.
Homosexuals feel that that is how God made them. That is a lie. But if they would submit themselves to Him, they would see what God could make them. But they refuse to, and so they expect God to bend to their will.
There are a lot of teachings in the Bible that I absolutely detest, such as loving my enemies. That goes against every fiber of my carnal being. Turn the other cheek. Are you kidding? I want to kick some rear when someone does me wrong! But the Bible is not a book of do's and dont's. It's a guide on how to have a relationship with God. God is holy, and the closer you want to be to God, the more holy and pure you have to be. That includes giving up and doing things that your flesh sometimes wants to keep and do. Only those who do, though, will know the true nature of God.
Pr 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.
A man finding a husband or male partner is not finding a good thing, and has no favour of the Lord.
Hey Chris. I, for one, freely admit to "picking and choosing". I had an outstanding (and very tough!) religion teacher who took her faith very seriously. Over a full school year, she took us through every book of the bible, pointing out parts that contradict each other, and parts that have been translated in different ways. We were taught to look at the many different sources with a critical eye, and were warned of those who would insist that every word was Fact and there were no contradictions. I wished she posted here, because she would eat some of the arguments I've seen here for lunch.
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them” (Genesis 1:27, 28).
Adam was a son of God (Luke 3:38). What did God give his son? A woman (wife). God did not give his son a husband or a male partner. God will not give a man to a man, especially among his own sons.
Prophet - Quit dodging the question: How can you be against slavery and yet still hold to a literal reading of the Bible? I know the answer is you can't which is why you refuse to answer.
Let me make sure of this...
You believe that Jesus literally did those things. The Bible says that He did. But, yet, you don't take the Bible literally. Please forgive me, but if anything doesn't make sense, it's that.
ifeelfine,
They make absolute sense. You just refuse to answer. I just can't figure out out how you can believe that Jeus literally did those things, when you say that you don't take the Bible literally. How can you not make sense of that question?
Prophet: What are you talking about? Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. And again, no I don't - I don't take the Bible literally so I don't have to (but for the record believe that He was born of a virgin, is the Son of God, lived a sinless life and performed the miracles).
Your side has to support slavery to not be hypocritical. You've said nothing to dispute it so it must be true.
I will take this Dr. Brown seriously when God gives Him the job of judging who is and isn't a "true follower". I believe that is Jesus' job right now - or is Dr. Brown offering his services? I too believe that homosexuality is a sin when acted upon. But it is not up to me or any other man to judge a person's personal relationship with Jesus, or his future destiny. If it is up to man, then we are ALL on our way to Hell.
Continued to ifeelfine:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
Eph 5:3-7 "But FORNICATION, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
1Cr 5:9-13 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–
not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
Accept the repentant sinner; Absolutely yes!!!!!!! Accept the unrepentant as a brother? God forbid! This goes against God's Word.
ifeelfine, wrote:
"jesus4me: I don't have to know you to know that you don't take the Bible any more "literally" than me. To suggest that you do is hypocritical. I've seen you dismiss the things you don't like as "that's not what it means" or "that's not a part of the new covenant," etc. The Word of God may not change but our interpretation of it and understanding of it certainly does and has for the last 2000 years and you are being dishonest to suggest that it doesn't."
i would love to see you go back to one of my previous threads and for you to quote me word for word on the example you just gave. Please don't confuse me with someone else, because to do so is false witness, and God knows you have been sidetracking the homosexual and christianity issue since late last year when you would constantly ask about "what about divorce?" and I as well as others responded to your question and it was still not enough for you to take hold of the truth of God's Word. For you to say what you said without quoting me specifically and in context as I have done with you is intellectually as well as factually dishonest. Again I say to you ifeelfine, if you have a pet peeve with the Word of God, take it up with the Creator God. I rest my case. Furthermore, peoples loose and liberal interpretations such as yourself does not negate the fact that God's Word is infallible, inherrent, and not full of human error as you and other liberal christians have implied by your statements concerning interpretations, 30,000 Bible translations, etc. The original context of the manuscripts we do have is what we are debating here. not the so called 30,000 translations that you dispute in order to allow for homosexuality in your liberal interpretation.
Chris, since you brought up picking and choosing: I wasn't the one saying that there's a perfectly good explanation for some deplorable passage in the NT that can be explained as varying translations, but yet there are no good explanations for other passages (which I find equally deplorable but you don't), and supposedly those passages couldn't possibly have been mistranslated?! THAT, clearly, is picking and choosing.
ifeelfine,
You also said "Because I don't take the Bible literally...."
So, Jesus wasn't literally born of a virgin. He wasn't literally the Son of God. He didn't literally live a sinless life. He didn't literally perform those miracles. He wasn't literally scourged and beaten. He didn't literally die on the cross. And He didn't literally rise from the dead.
Am I right?
I just get the feeling that you don't support incest marriages because it grosses you out. And that is a very immature reason to not support them.
C'mon, ifeelfine.
I figured that your argument would be well thought out! At least give me a side to the argument that hasn't been debunked already.
Ok. This is how this argument will go...
Me: What kind of children can homosexuals create.
You: None, but who says that homosexual marriage has to be about procreation?
Me: You've proven my point about incest. (As in, who says that a brother marrying his sister has to be about procreation?)
So, I say again. If you want to promote homosexuality, you would, in good conscience, need to at least support those who are into incestuous relations.
Actually Prophet I don't. Because I don't take the Bible literally I am not forced to make that distinction without being hypocritical. However, because you and several others claim (inerrently I might add) to take the Bible literally then you're hypocritical for not endorsing slavery. You can't have it both ways because you claim literalism - because I don't, I can have it both ways without being a hypocrite.
For the record, society has a stake in keeping incest from happening because of the birth defects that can happen plus the emotional damage (even into adulthood) with incest is well documented - with homosexuality its not.
Amen, wilderness. Amen!
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth” (Genesis 1:27, 28).
The blessing of God and the mandate to be fruitful, multiply, replenish, subdue, and have dominion was given to man and his wife. In the word of God, homosexual relationships have never been given that blessing or mandate.
ifeelfine,
I could ask you the same thing about incest.
I know that you don't believe that slavery is acceptable, even though the old testament condones it. So, that means you don't take the laws of the old testament as being true. So, the old testament law states that homosexuality is wrong. Again, you claim that because it is old testament, it does not affect us. The old testament states that incest and beastiality is wrong. Suddenly, you're a huge advocate of the validity of the old testament. What gives?
Point is. The old testament states the homosexuality is wrong. The old testament states that incest and beastiality is wrong. But you've decided to pick and choose which one you believe. In other words, the old testament is valid if it suits your purpose.
As I've told you before. If you choose to promote the gay lifestyle, you have a moral obligation to support and promote the incestuous lifestyle. Otherwise, you are a hypocrite.
ifeelfine you continue to chip away at the Word of God and the Gospel of Christ for your own personal postmodern viewpoint. You also did not respond to my previous response to your accusations of me to quote me word for word IN CONTEXTconcerning your accusation. Your failure to do so is not only intellectually dishonest, but shows your disdain for truth as most liberals who love revising truth to be relative to one's intepretations. I don't understand why you haven't been able to quote me in context, since I always quote EXACTLY what you say, and we all knwo your intent.
May the Lord grant mercy on you and others who have left the Way to follow doctrines of men; rather than the Whole Counsel fo God in context. I pray you repent of the deception which has filled your heart(s):
2 Timothy 4:3 (New King James Version)
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
Chris - The same questions could be asked of you or Tom regarding slavery. Do you only take what sounds nice? Or do you take it all literally? I know that you don't because you've said that already.
No-wire,
So what do you believe? Do you go through the Bible and pick out what you think sounds nice? Do you say that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven? Because I mean, for those who do not believe in Christ, this might come off as unloving, but for those of us who know God, we consider it the most loving thing He could have done. Where do you draw lines? How do you divine the words that are true from the ones that are false? God is love, yes that He is, but He is also just, how do you reconcile the two?
You can have a god who compromises truth for love, and accomadates anyone who doesn't "hurt" anyone, but that god is not the same as the God of the Bible.
nowire that may be so but we are not talking about other issues we are talking about the sin of homsexaulity that the Bible clearly says is a sin and Jesus4me has presented some of the verse for you to read and Prophet and others have presented over and over. The differance between most of us here and you and ifeelfine is that we believe Scripture means what it says and says what it means. Some passages are hard to fully understand, granted but most of His word is pretty straight forward. We also or rather most of us here believe all of it is divinely inspired. So quite frankly it is those like you and ifeelfine that are trying to change the plain meaning of scripture as it relates to this issue of homosexaulity that is your agenda contary to what has been taught, believed since the beginning of Christianty, nay even all the way to the beginng of Gods creation some 6000-14000 years ago. Like it or not as you change the meaning of scripture you are in danger of Gods judgement. And no I am not judging your salvation just the fruit you are exhibiting on this web site. Prophet I love what you wrote just a touch of sarcasm but effectively showing the sillyness of thier arguement. We will be praying for you all. Gods blessing
In Christ
Tom
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
Eph 5:3-7 "But FORNICATION, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
1Cr 5:9-13 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–
not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
Accept the repentant sinner; Absolutely yes!!!!!!! Accept the unrepentant as a brother? God forbid! This goes against God's Word.
Tom: I didn't admit anything about what the bible says or doesn't say. But as ifeelfine said, you can't have it both ways. You cannot say that one word is very clearly translated because the passage says what you want it to say, and then say that words in other passges can be translated in other ways because you wouild look like a monster if you agreed with the original translations.
Of course for me it's all neither here nor there because, like most non-fundamentalist Christians, I don't believe that every single writer of the bible wrote every single word as God would have intended. It doesn't take much reading to gather that there were at least a few writers who had a not-so-divinely inspired agenda. And I guess that is my main thesis statement. If it doesn't go along with the overall message of love, it ain't meant to be taken literally.
my yoke is easy and and my burden is light" and we are no longer under the law but are "led by" and "serve of the spirit," unless you are in an incestuous relationship. then you have to go thru a stressful burdensome psychotherapy to reverse what you have come to know as natural, because you have been put under the law, without any witness as to the spirit as to what it means to be a believer and to be in love with your sister, brother, mother, or father.
"my yoke is easy and and my burden is light" and we are no longer under the law but are "led by" and "serve of the spirit," unless you are a homosexual. then you have to go thru a stressful burdensome psychotherapy to reverse what you have come to know as natural, because you have been put under the law, without any witness as to the spirit as to what it means to be a believer and to be gay.
all this by brothers in christ whom share your same inheritance.
But, for the sake of everyone else, may I suggest why you won't tell me where you found the scriptures. Because they are in the Old Testament. As are the scriptures that forbid homosexuality. But pro-homosexuals will argue the validity of the OT (being that we are under the New Testament now). That being so, then the scriptures condemning incest and beastiality would be as moot as the scriptures condemning homosexuality.
And since the New Testament says nothing about incest or beastiality, then it's safe to say that it is acceptable.
So, for the gay proponents to argue the acceptance of homosexuality is to validate those who are in incestuous relationships. Because they can use the very same argument that the homosexuals use, and it is very valid.
Knowing this, any homosexual who does not accept the incestuous relationship as an acceptable lifestyle, is no better than those "unloving, and intolerant" Christians who "bash" gays.
ifeelfine,
Yes, I could look up the scriptures. The same way I looked up the scriptures that state that homosexuality is a sin.
But I would like to know where you got the idea that incest and beastiality are a sin. Please let me know. Unless you would rather not incriminate yourself?
once again ifeelfine you try and change the arguement, although muggleBorn answered it very very well. The debate is about whether homosexaulity is wrong by the standard set forth by Gods word the Bible. And His word says with a resounding loud voice yes homosexaulity is wrong and it is a sin and it will cause one to miss out on salvation, just like any number of sins. Are you ready to accept this Jesus and what His word says is truth? We all need to repent and to follow HIm who is truth above. We will be praying for ya
In Christ
Tom
ifeelfine, wrote:
"jesus4me: I don't have to know you to know that you don't take the Bible any more "literally" than me. To suggest that you do is hypocritical. I've seen you dismiss the things you don't like as "that's not what it means" or "that's not a part of the new covenant," etc. The Word of God may not change but our interpretation of it and understanding of it certainly does and has for the last 2000 years and you are being dishonest to suggest that it doesn't."
i would love to see you go back to one of my previous threads and for you to quote me word for word on the example you just gave. Please don't confuse me with someone else, because to do so is false witness, and God knows you have been sidetracking the homosexual and christianity issue since late last year when you would constantly ask about "what about divorce?" and I as well as others responded to your question and it was still not enough for you to take hold of the truth of God's Word. For you to say what you said without quoting me specifically and in context as I have done with you is intellectually as well as factually dishonest. Again I say to you ifeelfine, if you have a pet peeve with the Word of God, take it up with the Creator God. I rest my case. Furthermore, peoples loose and liberal interpretations such as yourself does not negate the fact that God's Word is infallible, inherrent, and not full of human error as you and other liberal christians have implied by your statements concerning interpretations, 30,000 Bible translations, etc. The original context of the manuscripts we do have is what we are debating here. not the so called 30,000 translations that you dispute in order to allow for homosexuality in your liberal interpretation.
ifeelfine72, >>Tom: Do you go up to obese people and tell them that they are sinning by virtue of their gluttony?<<
iff, if there were a movement by the vast majority of overweight people to NEVER ever diet again, and decide that it was not only "healthy" to be "flamboyantly" overweight (not just talking about 25 lbs or less, here), but that they should try and get as obese as possible and make sure that high school health class taught our children that it was a "good" thing ...
... then yeah. It would be our Christian duty to tell these people that their bodies should be treated as temples for the Lord, that their practices were unhealthy, and the message that they're using my tax dollars to spread is sinful.
jesus4me: I don't have to know you to know that you don't take the Bible any more "literally" than me. To suggest that you do is hypocritical. I've seen you dismiss the things you don't like as "that's not what it means" or "that's not a part of the new covenant," etc. The Word of God may not change but our interpretation of it and understanding of it certainly does and has for the last 2000 years and you are being dishonest to suggest that it doesn't.
ifeelfine,the reason you ask people to reinterpret the Bible is because you obviously have a pet peave wit the Bible. you don't take it for what it says. It's just like the argument over predestination and free will. it has plagued scholars for years, because in our human minds we can't comprehend how the two overlap, but yet both are taught in the Bible. I ask one question: If you're flying on a plane, whihc wing would you rather take off the plane? the answer to that obviously is none. It is the same with predestination and free will. You can't remove either one from the Bible, because God is Sovereign, but He also has given us a choice to follow Him or reject Him. Tyhis is where evangelism comes in and preaching repentance and forgiveness of sins. If you're riding on a train and you have 2 rails going the same place, then which rail should you take off the track? The answer is the same - neither one; unless you want the train to derail. The same goes with presestination and free will. God sovereinly chooses, but we have a choice to act upon His Will for our lives. Having said that, if you choose to follow Christ, then you cannot be openly, flabouyantly living in homosexaul sin, or adultery, or fonication, or any other sin without repentance. It is an oxymoron, it goes contrary to God's ordained order of things, and you are confusing people by your twisting of the Scriptures. I seriously hope you repent of your ignorance my friend. I'm not trying to win and argument. I am just trying to have you look at the heart of God in His Scriptures, and what He has been telling manking throughout history. Sin seperates us from a holy and righteous God.
ifeelfine wrote:
"Prophet: Obviously I don't think the Bible says homosexuality the way you think of it is a sin. I've said before that the passages in Leviticus and Romans are misinterpreted by heterosexuals. Your interpretation of scripture says its a sin. I don't read Greek, Arameaic and the other original languages the Bible was written in and I'm guessing you don't either. We have to trust the Biblical scholars. The ones you trust say all homosexuality is a sin, the ones I trust say it isn't. So get off your high horse and stop saying you know what God meant - your interpretation is no better than mine. Although given what we know about monogomous homosexual relationships, mine is definitely more in line with the spirit of the rest of the Bible.
As for what Jesus said about gay people, gay marriage, etc; here it is: ". . . ."
As for what Jesus said about the computer you are using and I'm using; here it is: ". ..."
ifeelfine, the biblical scholars that i as well as Prophet and other born again Christians follow have been interpreting the Scriptures for over 2000 years. It is just now in this post modern Christian era which is very much like what England went thru post world war II that the liberal scholars want to re-intepret the meanings of the Bible. Read your Bible ifeelfine. Obviously you don't because you love to tickle your ears with many "scholars" who don't have a clue of the writer's intent, as well as what God created as a loving monogomous relationship from the beginning - God created man and woman. One man, one woman married together for life. Don't add to it, don't take away from it ifeelfine. you can twist the Scriptures all you want to suit your own post modernism, and moral relativism, but your interpretations don't follow too far behind atheists, non believers, and situations ethics. case in point.
Tom: Do you go up to obese people and tell them that they are sinning by virtue of their gluttony?
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world” (Titus 2:11, 12).
The grace of God is a teacher, teaching us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live soberly, righteously, and godly. If we say that we are a Christian that has the grace of God in our lives, but we deny and walk contrary to the teachings of grace, then we speak as a liar.
In addition, the grace of God will teach us that homosexuality is a sin, an abomination. If we think otherwise, then we are sitting under the tutelage of a substitute teacher, a liar and a deceiver.
cbelect what i find interesting is this, This is a debate on whether homosexaulity is a sin and condemn by God in His word the Bible. No one that I am aware of has said that they hate the person who practises this sin. so I ask you is it hate to tell someone that they are doing something contary to Scripture and could result in a very unpleasent eternal life or is it love to try and show them the error of there way, to restore them or to bring them into a saving, loving relationship with Jesus Christ so they then can instead spend the rest of eternality with Him. So quit with the you hate gay aruement please. Scripture is clear it is a sin and can cause one to miss out on eternal life with God. If ya want to debate about other sins start another thread. We will be praying for you all.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Prophet: I'm not sure what you're getting at - you can look up where bestiality and incest are referred to as sins in the Bible as well as I can.
Isn't it interesting that we spend all this issue condemning gay people. Have we picked our favorite "sin" in order to deflect our own shortcomings? Does being a glutton keep one out of heaven? Being a gossip? What does God require of us to be a Christian? I think the answer was given years ago by Martin Luther and other reformers as they went back to the teaching of Scripture...it is by grace alone that we are saved, not by works, lest any man should boast.
I'd much rather have a gay brother or sister in my church than someone with a bitter or gossiping spirit. We're all sinners...we are all in need of a Savior...and we are saved by God's soveriegn grace...period.
Also, if you do believe that being gay is a sin that keeps someone out of heaven, how do you begin to think you can reach a person by being so hateful? Even if you believe that being gay is a sin, might I suggest getting to know a gay or lesbian person and being a part of their lives. If they are to change, this love will change them...not hellfire preaching and constant condemnation.
So then nowire since you have quit the debate about homosexaulity being wrong according to the Bible you must be in agreement with what Scripture says and are now arguing about whether the Bible favors or is against slavery. So welcome to the club nowire and ifeelfine.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
One of the biggest mistakes one can make is to lie to him/herself about how they stand with the Lord. Many want their ears tickled instead of having their hearts pricked. It is most important to read the Word (Bible) to learn what the Lord does and does not approve of for His people. If we are not willing to give up the things He doesn't approve of, then we really shouldn't call ourselves Christians. It is so important where we will spend eternity, so we need to be diligent in searching out His Will for our lives. Lets not do that in vain by lying to ourselves. Search for the Truth no matter where it takes us and embrace it. It will pay off in the end.
ifeelfine,
Could you please answer the question I posted in the forum "apologist asks church to step up response to militant athiesm" that was in response to your comment?
And people are tired of me bringing up homosexuality sin because they do not have any good rebuttal for it.
Yes Tom, I imagine Prophet is VERY tired of us bringing up the slavery thing because he/she doesn't have any good answer for it (but a quite a few not-so-good, easily debunkable answers).
ifeelfine,
You said "No, I don't have to believe in incest or bestiality or pedastery or anything that doesn't involve two consenting adults. None of those things involve a spirit of love - I know lots of gay people that have very loving relationships and are very much a part of God."
Who are you to judge whether the feelings between a brother and sister, son and mother, or father and daughter do not involve a spirit of love? You refuse to be judged the way you judge. Not very Christian of you. Besides, it says nothing against it in the Bible, does it?
Besides, you think that incest has to involve a minor. I would think that any 18+ year old man who is in love with his 18+ year old sister (and ivce-versa) would be considered to consenting adults. But you want homosexuals to have rights, but not them? They love each other, for pete's sake! Where's your compassion and tolerance for their feelings?
No, I don't have to believe in incest or bestiality or pedastery or anything that doesn't involve two consenting adults. None of those things involve a spirit of love - I know lots of gay people that have very loving relationships and are very much a part of God.
"Would you like it if other Christians said you weren't Christian because you are against the death penalty and they think that is against God? "
My faith in God, and my relationship with Him, is secure. What man may think does not upset me. I have been, and will be, persecuted for my stand for truth. But I rather care about what God thinks about me. And I live my life reaching for the image of Christ. My desire is to please God, and only Him. What His opinion about me is, is what matters. And not what man thinks, or man says God thinks about me. I'm sure you feel the same way.
You can call me anti-Christian. You can call me a Satanist if you want. The Word of God says that homosexuality is a sin. I cannot preach anything else,other than that truth. The Word of God says that adultery is a sin. Again, I cannot preach anything other than that truth.
But, do not fear. Homosexuality is just few short years from attaining it's goal. But let me tell you, if you choose to accept homosexuality as a viable relationship, you must also accept incestuous and beastial relations as well. I hope that you are not only willing to accept that, but also show your support for their plight too.
Someone said there are more than 30,000 Christian denominations (I lost count at 3,000 when I was counting them! LOL) and obviously we can't all be right. We all think we are but obviously cannot. The Truth will come out in the end!
My faith is very strong - I just don't like it being questioned when it is so intensely personal.
Thanks Prophet . . . But I still dislike being called non-Christian for having an opposing viewpoint on two issues (homosexuality and evolution). Would you like it if other Christians said you weren't Christian because you are against the death penalty and they think that is against God?
But I must admit, I can handle debating them, as opposed to some Catholics on this site. I may believe that ifeelfine,nowire, and agentorange are wrong, but at least they are level headed about their debates. They are more cordial than a couple of other people I've had discussion with, who resort to name calling, and rather raucous insulting. So, I admire them and am thankful for their demeanor in our arguments.
Yeah, I get tired of arguing with them over the same thing. Eventually, I'll get bored of their antics and leave for a time. But I have met some true Christians on here, that I've corresponded with via email. So, it all works out. LOL.
I was just asking if you were getting weary of the silly question that feelfine and his kind keep asking and debating about. I knew you didn't bring up slavery they did as well as the silly david/jonathan arguement. Again sorry for the confusion
In Christ
Tom
Tom,
It's okay. LOL. I've done that before too. No harm done, I figured you just misread what I posted.
Opps Forgive me for any confusion I may have cause you Prophet.
In Christ
Tom
no prophet i am agreement with you. it is those who distorts the Word of God that i am weary of and their arguements. you rock for Christ and that is great and worthy of one who calls them a follower of Christ.
Gods Blessing
in Christ
Tom
Tom,
Are you asking me those questions?
I didn't bring up slavery. Nowire did. He's claiming that if the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong, then slavery (according to the Bible) is okay.
You said "I think it is because your agruements for homosexaulity are wrong and against scripture. Second the whole jonathan/david and Ruth/Naomi being gay theory is even worse." I hope that wasn't directed at me. I don't agree with homosexuality, and the idea of Jonathon/David, and Ruth/Naomi being homosexuals is sickening.
But I do agree with you on this point you made: "So are you sasying that it is possible to change ones orientation which would also mean that your not born that way."
Yes, it is more than possible. It happens. I've always preached this: The way a person was "created" and what God wants them to be are two different things. It's just the lazy ones that refuse to change. I was created a lying, adulterous, fornicating, drunk, angry man. I could have been lazy and remained that way, expecting people to accept me the way I am. But I chose to work to change into the image of Christ. That's the difference between a sinner and one who sins.
Prophet do you ever weary of these silly arguements. Two questions. One I thought the debate was on Homosexaulity why are you bringing up slavery? I think it is because your agruements for homosexaulity are wrong and against scripture. Second the whole jonathan/david and Ruth/Naomi being gay theory is even worse. even if they were gay and THEY WEREN'T then they must have change their orientation becasue they David and Ruth got married and had kids. jonathan died and Naomi live happy ever after under Boaz's household anfter Ruth and Boaz married. So are you sasying that it is possible to change ones orientation which would also mean that your not born that way. Man you all are pretty.....
Gods blessing
In Christ
Tom
Nowire (and ifeelfine, since you apparently agree with him),
The Bible says "slave" so it means "slave".
Jesus says that we are to hate our father and mother. So.....?
Prophet - So the slavery passages need translation but the passages on homosexuality don't? Is that about right?
nowire - Prophet like many of the other "Christian's" on this site want it both ways. They just don't understand.
So the slavery part is just an error in translation and was only approproate for that time period, but the homosexuality part is 100% perfectly translately and as applicable today as it was then? Never bought it before, and not buying it now! Besides, back then there were no "employees" as we know themn today. They wrote slave and they meant slave.
To deny these words are of Jesus would be to deny that you follow His teachings.
You said "The ones you trust say all homosexuality is a sin, the ones I trust say it isn't."
Why would I trust scholars? I just read the Bible. It's plain and simple. You don't ned a PhD, or a college education to understand this First Corinthians 6:9
KJV: 9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (What could be more effeminate than having sex with a man?)
NIV: Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
NASB: Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
NLT: Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,
Catholic Bible: Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
"Although given what we know about monogomous homosexual relationships, mine is definitely more in line with the spirit of the rest of the Bible."
Well, given what I know about marriage (being between a man and a woman), mine is definitely more in line with the spirit of the rest of the Bible.
Colossians. The word "slave" means "a love slave", or one who is a slave out of desire. In other words, he is an employee.
And since you want to quote the Old Testament, I could quote in the old Testament where it says that homoseuxality is a sin.
So, you don't follow the teachings of Christ? The teachings of Christ say that homosexuality is a sin.
Prophet - "Why was he going to make the law in the first place if he wasn't going to enforce it?" That's an interesting question, lets ask that of say, these verses:
Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, work heartily...
Leviticus 22:10 No one outside a priest's family may eat the sacred offering, nor may the guest of a priest or his hired worker eat it. But if a priest buys a slave with money, or if a slave is born in his household, that slave may eat his food.
Exodus 21:20 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
Prophet - Oh, and the government does allow you to live your "lifestyle" - if we went according to the literal words of the Bible you wouldn't have been able to marry your wife.
Prophet: Obviously I don't think the Bible says homosexuality the way you think of it is a sin. I've said before that the passages in Leviticus and Romans are misinterpreted by heterosexuals. Your interpretation of scripture says its a sin. I don't read Greek, Arameaic and the other original languages the Bible was written in and I'm guessing you don't either. We have to trust the Biblical scholars. The ones you trust say all homosexuality is a sin, the ones I trust say it isn't. So get off your high horse and stop saying you know what God meant - your interpretation is no better than mine. Although given what we know about monogomous homosexual relationships, mine is definitely more in line with the spirit of the rest of the Bible.
As for what Jesus said about gay people, gay marriage, etc; here it is: ". . . ."
As for what Jesus said about the computer you are using and I'm using; here it is: ". . . ."
I wonder what would happen if I tried to twist the laws set up by our government in order to facilitate my lifestyle? I wonder if it would work? And yet, since fallible, sinful, temporal man and his laws are strictly enforced, what makes you think that our infallible, holy, eternal, God and His laws won't be? "Oh, but God is so loving!" If that's so, why did He make the law in the first place, if He wasn't going to enforce it?
ifeelfine,
Oh, there it is. The famous David/Jonathon, Ruth/Naomi argument. Neither of them were gay, so the argument is moot.
But you said you follow Jesus' teachings? What does He say about homosexuality, or homosexual relations/marriages? Quote me verses please.
What does he say about heterosexual relationships/marriages?
But, going back to your comment that you follow the teachings of Jesus. Do you? Does that mean you only believe the Gospels, but reject everything else in the Bible?
John 15:26, Jesus says "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me" So if you believe Jesus, then you believe that He sent the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of truth. You should also believe in the Trinity. That the Father, Son, and Spirit are one. So, when it says in Second Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" That means that all the scripture is given by God(Jesus), meaning that homosexuality is a sin.
You may use the rather feeble argument that just being homosexual is not a sin, it's the act that is a sin (whether "married" or not). That could well be true. But the same is true for fornication. Do you know many heterosuxuals that are not practicing sex (outside of marriage)? If you do, most of them are probably Christians who know the truth about the sin of fornication. Or they just can't "get lucky". The same is true for homosexuals. Most of them are practicing homosexuals, or else they're afraid of what people will think if they do, or they are and you just don't know it.
But all that is superceded by the truth that God can change people, including their desires. But most people (not just homosexuals, but also fornicators, liars, murderers, rapists, etc, etc) are just too lazy, and don't want to change. Becaue of that, they will face a harsh judgement.
If the bible were so "plenty straight forward" we would not have had so many religious wars over the past centuries over religion. People who fought segregation and fought opposition to interracial marriage were accused of disobeying the bible as well. And when intrerracial marriage finally became accepted it was seen as a "loss in the culture war" as well (in reference to another CP article).
So, ifeelfine72, you keep "twisting" away until those words are no longer used to stifle, oppress, and divide. Your "lovely beautiful children" are fortunate to have you!
Chris: So let me get this right - Jesus specifically said in Matthew 5:22 that anger is a sin (not violence but anger) but you say that is not a sin, now, something Jesus didn't speak of you say is a sin? That doesn't make sense.
I don't believe homosexuality is right necessarily - if I practiced it, it would be a sin because I am straight (the first time I've shared that here - no I'm not gay, I'm married to a wonderful woman and have lovely beautiful children). But if its practiced in a monogomous relationship between two people who are actually gay then I think its a beautiful thing (for them). And I think the Bible is supportive of this (based on both extra words in verses, Ruth / Naomi, David / Johnathon, etc).
Tom, I appreciate the prayers! Thank you! We should all search for better understanding as we are commanded.
I am a liar, thief, adulterer, murderer, fornicator. In all ways I have not sought after God. But in His most wonderful grace, mercy and love God has sought after me, though I did nothing to earn it, and through His son Jesus, who being in Himself God became a servant and took my much deserved punishment on the cross. Jesus became a curse and redeemed me to my Father in heaven and justified me before God. I praise God in thanksgiving for his tremendous awesome love shown through His son Jesus. I am a sinner and I believe in Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. This is mind boggling to the unbeliever, but I know the truth and the truth set me free from the bondage of this world. I hope if you are reading this you may come to this same truth and peace that surpasses all understanding.
Ifeelfine then sir follow what His word says and quit trying to twist what it says. it is plenty straight forward and has been for 2000 some years.
I will pray for you.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
ifeelfine,
Jesus gave the apostles the authority to continue on teaching and instructing the Church. He clearly gave them this task when He said that the Spirit would reveal all things to them. If you follow Jesus' commands, then you will follow the apostles' commands. Also, by your comment I am just guessing that you are throwing all of the Bible except for the four Gospels out? That seems incredibly presumptuous and un-Christian.
For that matter, anger is not a sin, depending on if it is for the right causes; violence however is against Christ's teachings. Evolution is not mentioned in the Bible, and it does not define whether a person is truly a Christian or not, because it is not really a sin to believe in it, so long as you believe that God was the one who created the earth and all life in it, and that the account in Genesis is true. Homosexuality is condemned by the Bible, evolution is not. Homosexuality is defined as a sin, evolution is not. If someone believes in evolution (and the Bible) but is wrong, they are probably wrong out of ignorance of the truth, if someone believes homosexuality is rigth (and also believes in the Bible) then there exists a contradiction, and one must be wrong, the view or the Bible. If the Bible is wrong, then it is untrustworthy, and it is impossible to tell what a real Christian is supposed to be, if there exists such a thing as a Christian. If the person's view is wrong, then they have to either change their view, or change their faith.
Some people consider a christian to be anybody who believes in Jesus Christ. I don't consider that to be a christian in the true sense of the word. I believe a christian is someone who believes in Jesus, but who has also decided to be a true follower of His. Most people, I believe, really haven't read a Bible. It is very important to not only read the Bible, but to study and research it. If one is a true follower of the Lord Jesus, then they will want to read His Word, and obey the Word.
Prophet said:
"May the blessings of God overtake you and your family. Ifeelfine is a passionat man (like me), that is why he gets so heated. I used to do that too, until I realized that it was more of a detriment than a help. So, through His Spirit, he has helped me learn self-control. I pray that ifeelfine comes to that place someday. It's hard to have self-control, I admit. LOL. But I refuse to let a man whom I do not know, probably will never meet, and who has absolutely no affect on my eternal life to control my feelings. He can be angry, call me names, condemn me, and whatever else his heart desires. But there is no condemnation to them who are in Christ. And I do not fear man who can kill my body only. I fear my God who can destroy both my body and soul. In Him is my peace."
You are mostly right. I am very passionate and get heated - it shouldn't bother me but you have said several times that I am not a Christian. Do I get angry? Yes. Is that a sin? Yes. It is something I must deal with (I don't get violent - just angry sometimes). However, I take my faith VERY personally as I know you do and I don't like - no I hate - being accused of not being a Christian from someone I really don't know and like you said will probably never meet. And for what, because I disagree with you on homosexuality and evolution - two things Jesus never talked about and one of which by any definition is not mentioned in the Bible at all.
That being said - they are not teaching the homosexual lifestyle to children. They are educating them on people's differences. There is no indoctrination of children into that "lifestyle." When you were a little kid could anyone have "turned you gay?" I highly doubt it.
Tom: I do my best to follow JESUS's commands!!!
Of course you can! Just like you can be an adulterer or someone addicted to Porn and still be a Christian. But like all sin, you have to STOP and TURN AROUND, because if you don't, the Bible does say you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. And Jesus said, if you love me, you will follow my commandments, and many of the commandments are instructions for sexual purity.
I completely agree with RevJim!
I don't understand the negative reference made that the NIV should be trashed and the homosexual behavior is allowable. It is most certainly NOT acceptable to God and to quote 2 references in the NIV, Leviticus 18:22 -"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Further reference to this is Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Now, looking at the NIV once again in the NT book of 1 Corinthians 6:9 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders..." Clearly seen here, the NIV translation is very clear that it does not convey a mixed message that homosexual activity should be nor is acceptable under God. Homosexuality is clearly a sin just as being a theif or a liar. Sin is sin, and one sin does not rank higher in God's eyes than another, they are all unacceptable to Him. If we are to be Christians and do the will of Jesus Christ, then we are to help those that are lost and do not know the Lord, so that their life can be changed. We should not allow ourselves to be "fleshly" and make judgements about others without first stoping to think of where we have come from ourselves, as we all have a sinful past and should strive to be more Christ-like. I hope these words inspire all to do His Will and do it His Way! May the Lord Bless you all!
jesus4me, and sueco4,
Do you know that in some California public schools they are teaching homosexual lifestyle views to 1st graders?!! And this past year they even considered dropping it down to kindergarten!! That is sick! But that's the enemies agenda...get them while they're young.
What is even more frightening is the statistic that says that if young people continue to believe the way they do now (as far as homosexuality goes) that gay marriages will be readily accepted in the next generation.
Tom,
May the blessings of God overtake you and your family. Ifeelfine is a passionat man (like me), that is why he gets so heated. I used to do that too, until I realized that it was more of a detriment than a help. So, through His Spirit, he has helped me learn self-control. I pray that ifeelfine comes to that place someday. It's hard to have self-control, I admit. LOL. But I refuse to let a man whom I do not know, probably will never meet, and who has absolutely no affect on my eternal life to control my feelings. He can be angry, call me names, condemn me, and whatever else his heart desires. But there is no condemnation to them who are in Christ. And I do not fear man who can kill my body only. I fear my God who can destroy both my body and soul. In Him is my peace.
God bless you too, Tom. Thank you for your words.
Ah me thinks ifeelfine isn't feeling so well. I also think that prophet is a great man of God at least by his word and testimony he appears to be. Funny thing is Jesus said if we love Him we will follow His commands, all of em. Seems to me prophet is trying, you rock prophet.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Prophet - You are so ignorant. You claim to have the love of God in your heart but clearly you don't.
Sueco4: right on. I wholeheartedly agree with what yo said about the public school system, and the whole homosexual agena used to try to indoctrinate our children into thinking they are gay, bi, tri, trans, and every other which way they say. Howver, I must point out, although the NIV has more modern translation to the Scriptures, I believe the translation you are referring to is the Message Remix(Paraphrase) endorsed by Bono from U2 and the whole Coexist post modern crowd. This is the version that changes the meaning of the words homosexual, catamite, and sodomite to "lust". It dos so to not "step" on any toes, since we live in a morally relative, pluralistic, situational ethics world that does not define things in terms of right anad wrong, black and white, but in shady tones of grey. Ever since the Supreme court decided to implement their first use of case law in 1962 when they ruled against prayer in public schools, this country has been on a slippery slope of illicit drug use, the propagation of hard core pornography, fornication is on the rise, so is adultery. The sanctity of human life in the womb was redefined in 1973 with Roe vs. Wade. AIDS is on the rise, and yet all the Billions and Trillions of dollars spent to "cover up" this disease by hading out tax funded condoms in public school could not do away with the disease, because the only thing that will "cure" it, or at least slow it down completely is to become abstinate until marriage as God defines it - One man and one woman till death do them part. People nowadays have redefined the terms of mroality to be their form of intepreting morality to a relative term- "I'm ok, you're ok"; many surprisingly in so-called Christian circles have also ascribed to the lie that homosexuality, adultery, and fornication are ok on an individual case by case basis. They use the grace of God as a coverup for their carnality, and they shame the Body of Christ in doing so.
God's love for everyone has been twisted to the point that there is no right nor wrong. God has clearly said that homosexuality is an abomination, it makes him sick, like all of our sin makes him sick. I don't believe people are born homosexual. A homosexual researcher planted that little seed of "truth" ( so called) many years ago while looking for a cure for AIDS. Vulnerable young boys looking for the love of a father are molested by a predator. Young girls molested by men, usually a relative, are so repulsed by the thought of sex with men, that they are vulnerable to suggestions that they must be lesbians. I was molested as a child and believed I was a lesbian as a child of 12 or 13. But thank God I was not brainwashed by my public school that it was ok. I knew it was not normal and never acted on the feelings and grew out of it. The homosexual agenda of today, and it's clear from what's going on in the public schools, is to convince as many impressionable young people as possible that they are homosexual. To have a "baptist" church support this goal makes me want to vomit as well. Homosexuals can be cured, but it won't be cured if society continues to accept it as normal and make all kinds of concessions for it, such as allowing it to be taught in the schools as just another lifestyle to be celebrated. Get back to the real Bible. Toss your NIV in the trash and buy a KJV, written by God, not by a couple of perverts that believed in evolution. This book, the NIV, is the main reason so many people are confused and find so many shades of grey to argue about. God is the same, now and forever, he does not chance to agree with man's "norms".
Shequon,
Oh, I've searched myself. And God tells me "Well done, my good and faithful servant." So I know my place is secure in heaven.
And that "disgusting" comparison to rape and murder is right on the money. Because the same thing that gays say, is what they can claim (and many do)....whether you like it or not. And I'm glad that my true colors shine through. No compromise, sin-hating, but yet tolerant and loving of those who desire to change into the image of Christ. I love the sinner. And though you think that by me warning them of the consequences of their sin is wrong, it just goes to show how you would raise your own children.
Don't condemn me because I am the messenger. If you have a problem with the message, blame the One who sent it: God.
Prophet, that disgusting comparison to rape does not deserve a reply, but here it is. I am glad you posted it so everyone here can see your true colors. Since you used the words "sick and twisted"--right back at ya!
ifeelfine wrote:
"Chris - Even the devil can quote scripture "
Ifeelfine, stop twisting things. You know very well that when the devil was quoting Scriptures to Jesus it was because he was trying to get Jesus to give in to the flesh by offering Jesus the kingdoms of the world if Jesus would bow to him. We all know (if we read our Bibles of course) that Jesus resisted the temptation and continued to do the Father's business. satan also tempted Jesus with jumping off the cliff so God would send His angels to rescue Him, but Jesus resisted putting God the Father to the test. Another time that satan tried to cleverly get Jesus not to do the Father's Will was when Peter told Jesus "not so Lord", and what did Jesus say to him? I'm sure if you read your Bible you will be very clear on what Jesus said - "get thee behind me satan!" See, the devil used Scripture, and seemingly "good" things to tempt, but not to get people to do the Will of the Father God.
Ifeelfine, you may have your own crowd of postmodern people who call themselves Christians while they don't take the Bible for what it says, but as I've said to you before - it is you who needs to repent. I am not trying to win an argument here. I just like the Word of God to be kept intact without you're twisting's of Scripture to suit your own opinion on carnality. You make yourself out to look really funny as Chris said when you imply that the devil quotes Scripture just like I do, because everyone on this board who loves the Lord, knows what I am doing is exhorting, and decalring the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD. Not bits and pieces as you would like to have your ears tickled with. When I am quoting Scripture it has nothing to do with enticing anyone in their weakness; rather, I quote them in hopes that people who are struggling won't be confused by your twisting of things, and they would turn to the Word of God for their answers on God's Will for their lives, repentance, forgiveness, God's ever so loving grace, and living the Christian walk. Please ifeelfine, stop confusing people. You are doing a disservice to the call of God in your life when you only quote a phony kind of grace that is not biblical. Read the whole book of Romans. I know you don't like the Apostle Paul, but he has written a pretty big portion of the New Testament which I know you as Christian should hold dear.
Tom: I am oh-so-ready for that day. Maybe not in all aspects of my life, but I am on my journey and am not the least bit threatened by that question; because with God I have searched my soul (apparently, unlike Prophet) on these issues and my conscience is crystal clear!
ifeelfine,
Yes yes the devil can, but that doesn't mean scripture is worthless, that means that interpretations that go against the clear truth presented in scripture are. It really isn't difficult. There is no real way of getting around the fact that the Bible condemns homosexuality, furthermore Ruth and Naomi were not gay, and neither were David and Johnathon. And even if they were (as you love to try to force) then they would have been guilty of sinning, and by OT law would have been deserving of death. But it doesn't matter, because it never says they were.
To Shequon and Ifeelfine:
Romans 6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Romans 6
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The Lukewarm Church
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[f] write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”
Footnotes:
Revelation 3:2 NU-Text and M-Text read My God.
Revelation 3:4 NU-Text and M-Text read Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis.
Revelation 3:7 Isaiah 22:22
Revelation 3:8 NU-Text and M-Text read which no one can shut.
Revelation 3:11 NU-Text and M-Text omit Behold.
Revelation 3:14 NU-Text and M-Text read in Laodicea.
Revelation 3:16 NU-Text and M-Text read hot nor cold.
The Faithful Church
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:[c] 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it;[d] for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold,[e] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
Revelation 3 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Revelation 3
The Dead Church
1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.[a] 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You[b] have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
Shequon,
God made the rapist the way he is? He made the child molestor the way he is? You are one sick twisted person. I'm glad I don't serve your god. He's impotent and teaches you nothing about the truth. His mouth is full of lies and death.
I know you will not accept this teaching, but I'll lay it out for you. That way when you face the judgement that you feel is too harsh, you cannot say you didn't know.
God didn't make homosexuals that way. That is the biggest cop-out given by the laziest people in the world for why they don't change. Yes, you're lazy.
Putting it simply, for the carnal mind to understand, the way a person "was created" and how God wants them to be are two different things. I, personally, was "created" a liar, adulterer, fornicator, drunk, angry man. I could be like thousands of lazy homosexuals (as well as lazy adulterers, liars, drunks, etc, etc) who whine "But that's how I am, why should I change." But I decided to be a true Christian and take responsibility for my own actions and, through the power of the Holy Spirit, change who I was "created" to be. That is a choice that lazy people don't make. They want everyone to kiss their self-centered buttocks. They don't want to hear the truth about change. That requires work. That requires sacrifice.
There's gonna be countless homosexual christians who will hear the words from Jesus "depart from me, I don't know who you are."
God help them before it's too late.
SheQuon, When Jesus comes back He will be swinging it as you say, at all who have not accepted Him as Lord and follow His commandments. Even those who say they are believers but arn't and those who don"t believe, least ways that is what Scripture says. The question is are you ready for that day? Quite frankly if your not there will be a day when all will bend the knee and Call Him Lord, For those who did not before they died it will be to late. Thier fate has been sealed. Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Then Prophet I suggest those who are so sure Jesus is coming back with a sword, to watch out, because He just might swing it NOT in the direction of gay people but on those who condemned them for being the way God made them!
Chris - Even the devil can quote scripture
To John;
"Tom, this is the great irony of christianity. In the bible, God is forgiving, and kind. But noooooo, he is so vengeful that he will burn his children for eternity. Even if there was such a supernatural forces, I'd rather not believe in it. Hey, I guess God gets a tantrum once in while. "
Actually it is called Judgement, you know like when you do something wrong you need to be punished for it, just like your father punished you when you broke the rules God also punishes mankind for sin....
ifeelfine,
I find it funny how you tell Jesus4me to repent, considering that Jesus4me mostly just quotes the Bible. You may as well just tell God to repent or Christ to repent.
Continued to ifeelfine:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
Eph 5:3-7 "But FORNICATION, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
1Cr 5:9-13 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–
not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
Accept the repentant sinner; Absolutely yes!!!!!!! Accept the unrepentant as a brother? God forbid! This goes against God's Word.
ifeelfine wrote:
"Jesus4me - Please repent
Rand503: The answer is yes"
ifeelfine, I suppose then the Apostle Paul Commissioned By Jesus Christ Himself on the Road to Damascus would need to repent for writing the Book of Romans (the Gospel of Grace) and the letter to the Corinthians, Galatians, the Ephesian Churches, etc according to you. YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY BLIND IFEELFINE. If you read your Bible, and you claim to be born again; then you would feel absolute Godly remorse for what you continue to preach - a pseudo religious like tolerance of sinful living. Please stop preaching a form of gospel that denies the whole truth of God's Word. Sin is sin. I do not define it; God defines it. If you are being convicted currently, don't drown out the Holy Spirit using your conscience. The Word of God will ALWAYS have things that rub us the wrong way. You know why? God wants us (born again Christians) to be changing into the image of HIs Son Jesus Christ by the power of His Holy Spirit; this means to search the Scriptures, learn what God calls sin, and ask Him to remove us from it. If sin did not have an attractiveness to it, then we would not be tempted. Please repent! Do not continue telling others to stay in the carnality of the flesh. When you tell homosexual non Christians such as Rand 503 that it is ok to be an unrepentant homosexual and still consider yourself a Christian, you are blind, and leaading them in a deception. We are commissioned to preach the truth in love, and love does not cover over what doesn't tickle our ears; rather, it exposes the truth in a loving way. This may sound very abrasive, harsh, and narrow minded to the world, but God loves us too much to let us say in our sins. This is why He calls us out of them when we become born again. Please ifeelfine, don't do the Body of Christ a disservice, and smear the name of Christ for the sake of tolerance and moral relativism. You are blind, and you are confusing people like Rand. Rather than telling Rand that he can be gay and still be practicing homosexuality and call himself born again at the same time with an "i'm ok, you're ok" mentality, why not tell him the truth; Jesus Christ can change the homosexual, the adulterer, the fornicator, the lier, the covetous of heart, etc....... Tell Rand to go visit joe dallas's website (Genesis Counseling). Ifeelfine, you shame the Gospel of Christ and the Word of God; why do you continue in your reckless abandonment of God's Word by picking and choosing what you like, but not taking the Whole Counsel of God????????
Prophet Sorry I have not a lot of respect for mr. lfeelfine. He stands for nothing with regard to Biblical Christianty and seeks to change the plain meaning of Gods word. Of course that is just my observation from his posts. God still loves him though and hopefully he will see the light.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
I would if you wouldn't tell another Christian to repent for speaking the truth.
"Religious Pharisee" - that's a good one . . . and here I thought you were starting to respect me.
jesus4me,
amen and amen. And don't let religious pharisees like ifeelfine condemn you. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. Just keep preaching the truth.
Chris333
Sorry Chris I missed the satirical part but now that you point that out I see your point. I also believe as you do and my fighht is the same. I recently read an article regarding homosexuals believing that they are born with this lifestyle. The writer stated that we are all born with a sin nature and the rest is a matter of choice. I mean from the fall in the garden to date we all have the ability to choose a lifestyle other than feeding our sin nature. The lifestyle of Christ. Thanks for your comments.
Shequon,
Jesus Himself said that He did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
No Wire,
As I said, if you want to sniff peoples butts, squat where it is most convenient for you, licking yourself in certain places, and such....feel free.
But I am made in the image of God, and will conduct myself accordingly.
Jesus4me - Please repent
Rand503: The answer is yes!
There is no irony in Christianity. First, God is just and be thankful that He is... in other words, we don't get more than we deserve. Second, God is mercyful and designed that our salvation would be based upon His mercy. Third, God is just and sin requires punishment - but God has already paid that price Himself, through the incarnation of His Son, Jesus Christ. Fourth, it is God's will that no one should perish, but should come to salvation with repentance in Christ Jesus. So you see, Christianity is consistent just as God is. But then God doesn't force people, does He. You have your free will to choose as you like. You don't have to spend eternity with God and, in my opinion - oddly enough, He respects that (guess I would have done things a little differently but then again, I'm only human).
'Can You Be Gay and Christian?'
We shouldn't isolate anyone and remember that being a Christian involves living a life that is not characterized by sin - which would also include using God's name in vain, fornication, lust, greed, adultery, homosexuality, beastiality, etc... Professing and living in accordance with having Jesus Christ as your Lord (Master), demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit (patience, kindness, peace, love, etc), living a life that is not characterized by sin (meaning you do not live to intentionally sin), and that your spirit testifies that you belong to the Holy Spirit. I could expand but essentially that is what "makes you a Christian". If I say that being a homosexual (assuming that one desires the same sex, fantasizes, or actually has homosexual relations) is not a Christian - thus also laying out the true description of a Christian and that the person is not living accordingly, then I must also point out that a fornicator, an adulterer, a murderer, etc... and then also laying out the true description of a Christian in relation to the forementioned activity - must say that they are not a Christian.
In other words, be equal when it comes to pointing out sin.
Tom, this is the great irony of christianity. In the bible, God is forgiving, and kind. But noooooo, he is so vengeful that he will burn his children for eternity. Even if there was such a supernatural forces, I'd rather not believe in it. Hey, I guess God gets a tantrum once in while.
Sorry Shequon you are wrong. When Jesus comes back and He will. He will come back as a King passing judgement on those who refused to follow Him and His commandments. Those who reject Him and His Words will be sentence to a very hot and painful place. Don't believe me. Read the words of this Savior. His words are true. Are you ready to meet this King? He said He is coming back, but if we die before He does. You will still meet Him are you ready for what He has to say to you if, if you are not in the book of Life? I hope so. Marantha
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
When I typed Jesus was a liberal, I meant he openly broke laws that were discriminatory (such as speaking to women in public), he called into question those who were speaking or doing evil in the name of faith, causing undue pain and suffering to others. And if he were to come back today would do the same. Yes, oh yes.
To shequon and anyone else reading my last post, I wrote:
"Jesus Christ is GOD the Son. He is Deity, and He would never endorse anything that has been written in Scripture. "
My intent, and what i meant to write is: Jesus is God the Son. He is Deity, and He would never endorse anything that goes contrary to the Scriptures - God's Word.
Sorry for the confusion guys. It was a simple mistype, but I hope this gets the point across. Thanks!
continued to Shequon:
NO, Shequon, Jesus was neither liberal nor conservative. He was neither Republican or Democrat, or Civil Libertarian, nor Socialist, not Third Party "Greenie". NO Jesus was not an Environmentalist. He was not a strict humanitarian either. Jesus came to do the Father's Will, and He will return to rule with an iron fist (Theocracy). We are living in the age of Grace, but Grace is for falling, not jumping. When I hear people say, “well, we’re all sinners, and I’m sure God doesn’t care if I live with my girlfriend, or sleep with my neighbor’s wife, etc”, they are misusing the Grace of God. The Apostle Paul, who DOES address homosexuality, as well as adultery, and fornication in the Book of Romans addresses the deception of believing “I’m ok, you’re ok” mentality of Grace without a heart of repentance and still calling oneself a Christian. Check out the Book of ! Corinthians so you can see what he tells the Corinthian church to do with a so called “brother in Christ” who was living with his father’s wife. Read your Bible in CONTEXT. Take the Whole Counsel of God and study it. Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets in the Old Testament. Jesus Christ is GOD the Son. He is Deity, and He would never endorse anything that has been written in Scripture.
God DOES grant forgiveness of sins thru Jesus Christ for WHOEVER comes to Him with a broken and contrite heart willing to turn from their sinful ways. And yes, we do all sin, but if we willfully sin without any Godly remorse, then there is something wrong in our relationship with God. Please Shequon, I don’t say this in irony, or being “holier than thou” in attitude, just please read your Bible in its entirety. God has a lot to say about sin, and yes He is a loving God. This is why His Word warns us to steer clear of sin, and in this case, as it pertains to this article, to steer clear of the act of homosexuality. God loves the homosexual, just like He loves the liar, and the drunkard, and the fornicator, and the adulterer, but there needs to be repentance, and you cannot have true repentance if one claims to be a Christian and is actively living in unrepentant homosexual, fornicating, or adulterous unions, or any other sin and willfully refusing to repent (turn away) from that/those sin(s). I’m sorry, but that is the Word of God in context for you.
shequon wrote:
"A simple answer to the question posed in the title: yes, Yes, and YES--and do not lot listen to anyone "Christian" who says otherwise! Let them quote the bible all they want, they don't listen anyway when you quote other verses of the bible that are also incompatible with true Christian love and Compassion. Jesus was a liberal; Semper Fi! "
Shequon, on the last part of your statement you say Jesus was a liberal? Oh really? Did Jesus endorse the right of a woman to kill her unwanted child simply because humans changed the meaning of child in womb to be fetus? Did He endorse the handing out of condoms with tax payer funds so that fornication, adultery, and homosexuality could be performed in a permissive society at will with no consequences for sinful behavior? Did He ever condone homosexual marriage, and people living out of wedlock? Did He ever promote the raising of taxes to pour Billions if not Trillions of dollars to try to stop a disease called AIDS which is simply controlled by promoting abstinence until marriage (one man and one woman as God has mandated of course with no extramarital affairs of course)? Did Jesus ever deny the right of the state of Israel to exist as the so called Christian liberal Jimmy Carter has done time and time again by making many ant-semitic comments; yet endorse madmen assassins who claim to be heroes such as the movement of terrorist hamas and people like the heralded Nelson Mandela who did some very horrible things in his quest for "liberating" South Africa. Oh, and let me not forget to mention Jimmy Carter's endorsement of assasins such as Fidel Castro, and Hugo Chavez who are secular humanist Communists.
Terry,
I appreciate your fervor, but I am afraid you have misunderstood me, I was making a satirical jab at NoWire, who is of the impression that we are animals. I for one think it is obvious to tell the implications and my post below was only meant to bring some of those to light. It is not only a wrong position, it is also a position that has dire consequences for humanity. For clarification, I believe we are made in the image of God, and that we have a soul which separates us from the animal kingdom. I also believe that we have universal morals, due to my belief in God, and only based upon my belief in God. Save your fight for the ones who do not understand this.
Chris333,
Wrong. We are not all animals we are human beings not human animals. Since animals cannot think outside of their own realm it is obvious there is a distinguished difference. If this is over your head then think about compare yourself as to being equal with a donkey.
Nowire,
Fantastic, so we are all just animals right? And since animals can be "homosexual" without being immoral, then surely human animals can right? For that matter, there must be nothing wrong with one person killing another to take his, land, money, spouse, job, or political position, I mean after all, dogs kill dogs, and we don't condemn them morally, monkeys do it, most animals do. In fact, we never say animals are immoral, because it would just be silly, they are just doing what they do, so why on earth should we human animals call each other immoral? I mean that is just silly!
You do realize that humans are part of the animal kingdom, or is this another evolution thing?
I like how homosexuals, and their proponents, defend their view by stating "homosexuality is common in the animal kingdom". Apparently, homosexuals have "de-evolved" back into animals. What has this world coming to, when people cry "Well, dogs do it, so it must be okay." Dogs also sniff each other's rears...I hope you're not going to make that a lifestyle choice. I'm glad I'm a human with morals and common sense, and not enslaved to the animal instincts of nature.
But, if homosexuals want to equate themselves with animals, I'm fine with that.
(PART 2) to Rand503
Ya know … I think one of the more offensive remarks someone (another secularist) said was actually encapsulated in a pro-gay rights ENDORSEMENT. Not an exact quote …”I think that those lousy f*** should be able to do whatever they want. If a guy wants to marry another guy, he should be able to … [omitted for the sake of everyone] … If they wanna marry a freaking DOG, that should be okay. I don’t care. Just keep ‘em away from me … except for the chicks, cuz at least they make better MPEGs.”
Are these the kind of people, who you think are SUPPORTING YOU? They’re cheering you on at your unions and then laughing at you behind your back … except if the conversation is being led by the occasional sympathizer … then nobody wants to offend that one person …ironically.
I’ve even seen a lot of recent television that ever-so-subtly sneaks these little digs in, mainly in TV-Mature (complete misnomer) animated shows. I’ve heard anti-gay comments as recent as last week from co-workers who are inundated with the same Diversity training that I am. I’m ashamed that the most I usually do is just role my eyes and pretend to have to go talk to someone else, but the last time (at a party) that I tried to talk about “WWJD”, and that we should be more understanding and loving, I was treated to a not-so-funny comment about Christians and gay people both having the same stick … somewhere.
But I guess you don’t really have to care … as long as they are checking off the right ballots.
You can lie about all Christians hating you if that makes you feel better … but it’s NOT US.
Rand503,
(PART 1)
Man! You are SO annoying.
In my life, from the 20th Century through the 21st to the present my friends and acquaintances have consisted of Gay, Straight, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Secular (Atheist, Agnostic, Pluralist) Wiccan, Black, White, Latin, Asian, etc … handicapped, married, single, divorced, lazy, workaholic … on and on and on. (Never really knew too many Muslims … so sue me ….
Out of all of them, the ones with the most demonstrated bigoted, hateful, anti-gay (AND TWO-FACED) behavior were the ones who were non-(Christian, Jewish, and Hindu) … but (through my own observations) the percentages were yielded from NON-CHRISTIAN.
The very same pluralistic/relativistic friends that I have/had, who CLAIM to be pro-gay rights, were the same ones who would turn around and make the most horrendous comments about gay people. I KNOW. I used to be there laughing and making the jokes WITH them! WE would ALL say, “Oh, sure. They should be able to do whatever they want”. Then turn around and verbally put bullets in your backs.
It wasn’t until I reaffirmed my relationship with Jesus Christ that I really began contemplating the struggles you have/had, while at the same time realizing that the gay lifestyle is offensive to God, as much as I wanted to fool myself. The reason I wanted to believe (at first) that God was OK with it, was because it justified MY OWN sins. “Maybe God just meant these things as more of a guideline than a rule” --- NO! God never speaks to me right out loud, but I had an almost intolerable feeling that I was wrong about God’s perspective. I read the Bible more, I listened to apologetics, I explored secular arguments … I thought deeply and logically about it and weighed it all arguments against each other, and as any TRUE Christian would expect … I discovered I WAS WRONG.
Christians “deliver” God’s absolute authority to you in black & white, as it has always stood in the Holy Bible. We are the most loving people you will ever know because we DON’T WANT to see you condemned! God loves you, we love you, and we are the majority of people who are honest with you.
Straight secularists string you along, because they don’t take God, marriage, OR YOU seriously and THEY DON’T REALLY CARE! They’re just jumping on the PC bandwagon, because it’s fashionable, and it helps to justify their own lifestyles BY COMPARISON.
(continued...)
And mexjewel accuses us of putting words in Gods mouth. Sorry doesn't wash. For over 2000 years people have called sin a sin just like homosexaulity is a sin. Sorry to break tyour heart. But it is true as it says in Scripture the road is narrow that leads to eternal life, will you take it. It goes through Jesus Christ and what He said as the Word of God made flesh.
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
1 Cor 6:9 ESV "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,.."
Translated from the Greek:
"Malakos" = of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man, OR of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness OR of a male prostitute
NOR
"Arsenokoites" = one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual."
To deny the plain meanings of these words is foolishness. Plain as day. You may as well claim that sky isn't blue or that water isn't wet.
...shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.
The militant homosexual movement accuses the church of hatred and slings wild hyperbole to bolster their arguments that fly in the face of both scripture and reality.
There is no hatred, only Christians whose hearts ache to see those that would be their brothers and sisters in Christ, repent of their sin and be welcomed in fellowship.
I can think of no other sin where the sinner has the nerve to walk into a church and in pride and boasting, outright deny scripture, deny that his sin is a sin, and demand that those of the fellowship compromise their view of scripture to accomodate him, else be labelled a hater, bigot, etc.,etc., etc., ad nauseum.
The way is narrow, Christ's claims are exclusive and God is the intolerant one- intolerant of sin.
Repent.
Maranatha!
To SheQuon and Rand503-
In my comment I only responded with what God said. It's God's Word that you don't want to hear.
I didn't reply with my words but God's Word. Why fight a battle that has already been won? Check the record (The Bible), GOD ALWAYS WINS!!!!!
Isaiah 40:8-The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but The Word of our God shall stand for ever.
Matthew 24:35-Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My Words shall not pass away.
Note that Jesus still defines sin as lack of love (Matthew 22:36-40). Fornication and adultery are unloving because each has a victim. What is unloving about a couple in a homosexual love relationships? Neither is victim, neither is unloved. Where is the hurt? Who is the victim being sinned against? No Gospel writer nor prophet covers homosexuality because it is not a sin issue. The King James Version comes closest to a correct English translation of two condemning nouns used in Leviticus 18:22 against homosexuals. It translates as "sexual immorality", not necessarily homosexual. (Remember that "homosexual" was coined about 1865, so any translation using a form of that word is a lie that needs to be ammended. In 1946 it premiered in an English Bible.) If God didn't want men (or women?) to have sex with other men, He would have said "Man shall not lie with man PERIOD That whole "...as with a woman" thing condemns straight men pretending to make it with a woman.
Rom 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Rom 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."
Rom 6:13 NIV "Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness."
SheQuon - Jesus said "go and sin no more" - not, "if it feels good, do it".
Your bald-faced lies will not be believed by any Christian who believes their Bible is the Word of God. Give it up.
Better yet, repent.
A simple answer to the question posed in the title: yes, Yes, and YES--and do not lot listen to anyone "Christian" who says otherwise! Let them quote the bible all they want, they don't listen anyway when you quote other verses of the bible that are also incompatible with true Christian love and Compassion. Jesus was a liberal; Semper Fi!
It's always easy to condemn someone else, isnt' it? It's always easy to get on your high horse and complain about how other people live their lives, right? It's always easy to trot out biblical passages to justify hate, ignorance, and intolerance.
1 Corinthians 5:9-12-
When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin.
10 But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy,
or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer[j] yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.
12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.
13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say,
“You must remove the evil person from among you.
1 Corinthians 6:9,10- Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit The Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people,
or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit The Kingdom of God.
Only the Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can cleanse us of all unrighteousness and filthy sin - this does include many other things, but as it pertains to this article - adultery, fornication, and yes, homosexuality. Too many in today's church want to cover up sin, and be politically relevent to today's "culture". They water-down the Wrod of God, and twist it to make it seem more "pleasant" to the ears. Many people want to hear what feesds their ego; they don;t want to hear the truth that transforms lives for their own good and for God's pleasure.
The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us are without sin. The Good News is that Jesus Christ became God in the flesh for us! He decended from his exalted heavenly place, and willfully shed His Prescious Blood and gave up His life so that we may have a relationship with God the Father our Creator.
We need to first acknowledge that we are all sinners; we need to repent - that is to literally and willfully choose to turn away from our old life of living in sins; we need to ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior of our lives (this means we hand over our free will to Him, and choose toi obey His commands and teachings). We must put our total trust and confidence ino Him, and then follow Him.
The question is, have we trully repented, and turned back from our sin. That is to say, if we're willfully, and rebelliously living in sin, have we made a conscious choice to turn from that sin, die to ourselves, pick up our crosses daily and follow Christ?
None of these sins are unpardonable, but God has given us a free choice. We must choose this day whom we will serve. Are we going to choose to gratify our flesh and live in sin, or are we going to die to ourselves, and choose to follow Christ Jesus?
Whoever doesn't truly know Christ on this site, please give your life to him. You will not regret it. He will never bring up your past. We all have pasts, but God can make you a new person, and as you continue to seek after Him and as you surrender your life to Him, He will continue to mold you and make you into the vessel of honor He wants you to be. I hope this touches someone out there, and may the Lord turn your heart to repentance. God Bless You.
Yes I am a Jew wrote:
"WWJD? Oh yeah, he'd definately go bash some queers. "
No, he didn't say to bash homosexuals, or sodomites, or adulterers, or fornicators, or people who have sex wit animals, nor pedophiles, or lyers, or thieves, and the list goes on. HOWEVER, HE did tell the woman at the well who had been divorced a number of times, and the man she was currently living with to GO and SIN NO MORE. In other words, Jesus loves the sinner just as he/she is with whatever baggage they bring. BUT, there must be a willful acknowledgement of he/she to repent and ask for forgiveness, and then die to his/herself daily, pick up his/her cross, and follow Christ. Dying to oneself is denying our flesh it's wants that are contrary to God's Inspired Word, which is His Will for mankind.
Yes I am a Jew wrote:
".........I've heard a lot of hate the sin, love the sinner on this board. How about the fact that you're defining the person by what you consider to be the sin? Let's treat people as people. Gays, as a general rule, don't run around trying to convert everyone else to their lifestyle. Certainly there are some who are molestors, but then again there are some clergymen who do the same. Just as most of you would prefer to avoid gross generalizations about priests liking to diddle their altar boys it would behoove society for you to do the same for homosexuals. "
Ok, if we're on the subject of an agenda, let's DO talk about the homosexual agenda everywhere.
Ok..so here it goes...
Lambda Legal - Legal Help for LGBT People
Colage, For People with LGBT Parents
International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission
Servicemembers Legal Defense Network
Lambda Legal
National Gay & Lesbian Task Force (NGLTF)
Gay & Lesbians Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD)
Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN)
Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG)
Egale Canada
American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)
Stonewall Democrats
Log Cabin Republicans
Wow! So that's a lot of "no agendas" and " no homosexual movements". Furthermore, it does seem like many DO want to convert others into their lifestyle. Specifically NAMBLA and GLSTEN that target youths.
fornication = Greek 'porneia' - illicit sexual intercourse, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
"..what you consider to be the sin.."
No, not what I consider to be sin. God calls it an abomination! Talk to Him.
Eph 5:3-7 "But FORNICATION, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
1Cr 5:9-13 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–
not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
Accept the repentant? Most certainly! Accept the unrepentant as a brother? God forbid!
HampsteadPete, So let me get this straight. You're not full of hate, ignorance or bigotry against Christians?
Something else to consider. If you think Christians are the only group of people that oppose a homosexual lifestyle, you are the one who is delusional. Do you think that Muslims tolerate that behavior? That's what I thought. Look, the only reason you rant and rave about Christians is because you know that they won't execute you. You wouldn't get away with that type of talk in say Saudia Arabia. Be glad you live in a country that tolerates more than you obviously know.
To IYes_I_am_a_Jew, People don't decide what is sin. God does. If you have a problem with that, see God.
The answer to this question is simple from a biblical prespective. if you are walking knowingly in sin while claiming to be a Chrisitan then your salvation is in question? Can I judge your salvation no. but Jesus said you will know them by their fruit if it is rotten then it will be cast into the fire. Paul say check your self to see if you are walking in the faith. Jesus said Sin no more
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
Gods Blessing
In Christ
Tom
I would think that this is a question best directed towards a homosexual who considers himself to be a christian. After all, it would make little sense to ask a seeing person if a blind person can be both blind and happy. Religion is an internal thing, based upon one's beliefs and perception of the world. Who are any of you to tell a person what they feel? Certainly you can stand back, throw your stones and criticize all you want but if a gay feels that he or she is a christian then good for them. Granted they are walking into a minefield where they'll be treated poorly by their alleged christian bretheren but that's their choice.
I've heard a lot of hate the sin, love the sinner on this board. How about the fact that you're defining the person by what you consider to be the sin? Let's treat people as people. Gays, as a general rule, don't run around trying to convert everyone else to their lifestyle. Certainly there are some who are molestors, but then again there are some clergymen who do the same. Just as most of you would prefer to avoid gross generalizations about priests liking to diddle their altar boys it would behoove society for you to do the same for homosexuals.
WWJD? Oh yeah, he'd definately go bash some queers.
Hampsteadpete,
"Wow! This thread illustrates just about every good reason there is NOT to be a Christian! The hate, bigotry, IGNORANCE and stupidity is all right here on display. You know, sometimes I am ashamed to be sharing the planet with you poor delusioned morons!
Why don't you all get a life and stop fretting about how other's choose to spend their's, when it doesn't effect your's in the least. That is, unless, of course, you are worried that just having them around will induce you or your's to pull a Ted Haggard"
Woah woah woah, no need to go jump off the deep end and start calling everyone morons and hateful bigots, take a lesson and learn from yourself. Next thing you will be saying we are sub-human and should be put in death camps. Let's just think about what you said, first you said we are hateful. Nobody said hateful words, hate is like saying, "I hate you because you are gay" or, "You gay people disgust me" or, "Sometimes I am ashamed to share the same planet with you people"; then you said we are bigots, which would mean we are highly intolerant of another's beliefs or opinions, certainly no one has said anything like, "You do not have the right to express your opinion" or, "Your opinion is not worth anything", then you said we are ignorant and stupid. Of what I do not know. Perhaps the surveys and statistics we present make us stupid, perhaps having an opinion that is unfavorable to you makes us stupid, in any case no one has objectively exhibited stupidity.
Finally you said that we should just mind our own business and leave people alone. This thread is not about that, it is about defending the definition of a Christian, if you have a problem with that then you do not have to be a Christian, but come on man don't insult our intelligence and dignity by giving the above ridiculous, hypocritical, and clearly "bigoted" claims.
Continued to HampsteadPete:
************************************************************************
1 Corinthians 1:18-31
Christ the Power and Wisdom of God
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”[a]
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[b] foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Glory Only in the Lord
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”[c]
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 1:19 Isaiah 29:14
b. 1 Corinthians 1:23 NU-Text reads Gentiles.
c. 1 Corinthians 1:31 Jeremiah 9:24
Continued to HampsteadPete:
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
********************************************************************
1. Matthew 7:13
[ The Narrow Way ] “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Matthew 7:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
2. Matthew 7:14
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
3. Luke 13:24
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:23-25 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
***********************************************************************
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
Continued to HampsteadPete:
May the Lord God open your eyes to the Truth of Christ Jesus. We live in a world where everything is "grey"; nothing is “black” and “white” anymore. No, now everything is “relative”. The same is happening in our country’s court’s of law with “case law” that did not come on the seen to show it’s secular humanistic grip on North American society until 1962; the year America saw prayer in public schools removed. Ever since then, the rise of drug use, promiscuity, paganism, outright Satanism, new age thought propagated by the Beetles, the Eagles, The Rolling Stones, etc. has been on the rise. We are slouching towards Gomorrah with situational ethics, moral relativism, and secular humanism, and if you can’t see it my friend; look at the world around you, and see what sin has done to people. Look at the false hopes it gives people, and yet, it allures us into thinking it is lasting pleasure, and it only leads us into more bondage ad hopelessness. I have been delivered from a life of sin and death, and I will not equate one sin over another, because the Bible says, we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That is to say, even if I was a relatively “good” person in the world’s eyes, my very thoughts and motives would be evil in God’s sight. The Bible says that our “righteousness” is as filthy rags to God; you know why? Because none of us is good; no, not one of us. It is God who is good, and merciful, and He gave up His only Son to pay for the sins of the world. He gives us a choice to choose life (everlasting), or death (everlasting); the choice is ours. I have chose to follow Christ Jesus, as has my wife. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord ad believe His Word to be true.
HampsteadPete wrote:
"Wow! This thread illustrates just about every good reason there is NOT to be a Christian! The hate, bigotry, IGNORANCE and stupidity is all right here on display. You know, sometimes I am ashamed to be sharing the planet with you poor delusioned morons!
Why don't you all get a life and stop fretting about how other's choose to spend theirs, when it doesn't effect yours in the least. That is, unless, of course, you are worried that just having them around will induce you or yours to pull a Ted Haggard. "
Hey Hampsteadpete, if born again Christians were not to show love by telling the whole truth about a matter, then it would not be true love. The Bible is clear that homosexuality, just like adultery, fornication, pedophilia, bestiality, incest, greed, murder, steeling, idolatry, lying, etc, and many more to list are sins. Sin seperates us from a Holy and Righteous God who will judge sin. However, He set His Son to be the Mediator between God and Man who shed His Blood on the cross so that anyone who repents, asks for forgiveness and invites His Son Jesus Christ to be Lord ad Savior of their lives, they would have the promise of a relationship with God, and eternal life. If claims with their mouth to be born again; that is a true Christian, and openly practices lying, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc, and there is no true Godly remorse, and a desire to repent from their "weakness" then one needs to question that person's sincerity for Christ. It is an oxymoron to claim to be living for Christ and yet be actively unrepentantly living with someone else's wife. The same goes for male to male sexual relationships, and female to female sexual relationships, and the list goes on. No one here is arguing that it will be hard to leave any sin that has you bound, but it is Christ who empowers us to walk away from the sin; He is greater than the sin that so easily ensnares us.
Wow! This thread illustrates just about every good reason there is NOT to be a Christian! The hate, bigotry, IGNORANCE and stupidity is all right here on display. You know, sometimes I am ashamed to be sharing the planet with you poor delusioned morons!
Why don't you all get a life and stop fretting about how other's choose to spend their's, when it doesn't effect your's in the least. That is, unless, of course, you are worried that just having them around will induce you or your's to pull a Ted Haggard.
Jesus said, "If anyone would become my disciple, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me."
AMEN TO THIS ARTICLE. THE TWO ARE MUTUALLY INCOMPATIBLE!!!
Jesus said, GO AND SIN NO MORE, to the woman caught in adultery, and Jesus says to the practicing homosexual, lesbian, and other sinners - GO AND SIN NO MORE!!!
That's the end of it. Period.
REPENT, FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!!!
This question is like asking "Can you be a thief and a Christian?" Of course you can, but you will repent of it and fight it. If you don't fight your sins, then there is no fruits of the spirit, and the truth is not in you.
You will find many people who are Christians who are fighting their homosexual desires (and therefore may claim the status of "gay"), and some who have had victory over those desires. (if you want to meet some of them, contact your local PFOX group).
1 John 2:4 says, "If you say you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar."
Further to my last comment's, to be a true born-again Christ focused christian who is obedient to GOD you cannot be openly gay and flaunting it. It is another matter entirely to be saved yet struggle with your sin-whether it be homosexual attraction, stealing, adultery,murder,covetousness,etc.
Homosexuality like any other sin, must be confessed and repented of. The unsaved homosexual must be approached with the love of Christ behind and working through christian's that are telling them of the power of the cross.Only the Holy Spirit can save, we as born again christians can only plant the seeds and pray for the Lord's grace to touch that person's heart.
From Indonesia,
We are all sinners, only God understand the individual's degree.
But we are not saved through our action but through faith in Jesus.
Faith here includes whether you believe the Word of God in the old and new testament represent the truth.
Based on the Christian Bible, homosexuality is a sinful behaviour.
Much more so, if a false phrophet said that its ok and even served as openly gay bishop which is heresy.
Anybody who is gay and considering to be holy in front of God and be removed from sin should leave homosexuality and read the Bible in spirit.
Somebody who thought Christianity and GLBT is compatible is similar to Lot's wife although her sin there and then was Greed. Genesis 19:26 "But Lot's wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt"
Based from the Christian Bible, God said hate sin and remove yourself from sin which in here is homosexuality -But love the sinners.
Barukh attah Adonai eloheinu melekh haolam,
asher natan lanu et derekh ha Yeshua
bamashiach Yeshua, barukh hu.
Amen.
LOL With the bar being set here, there would be very few Christians. Interesting how sinners have to create degrees of sin, so they can ignore there own.
Obviously, this is a no-brainer. Christianity and homosexuality are simply NOT compatible. Anyone who believes otherwise is sadly mislead.