Updated 07:54 am.EST, Mon November 23, 2009

Opinion|Sat, Feb. 16 2008 12:29 PM EST

The Culture War is Over: We Lost!

By S. Michael Craven|Christian Post Guest Columnist

I have come to face this possibility along with its implications, most recently while reading the new book by David Kinnaman and Gabe Lyons entitled unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity … and Why it Matters. In the book, Jud Wilhite, a pastor in Las Vegas says just that, “In Las Vegas, where I live, the culture war is over. We lost. Let me repeat: WE LOST. Now our calling is to love and accept people one-on-one, caring for them where they are. Our role is subversive as we carry the light and love of Jesus into the casinos, clubs, and streets of our city.” (Kinnaman & Lyons, unChristian, Baker Books, 2007, p. 62)

A recent conversation on the subject of cloning with my good friend, a philosophy professor, further underscores the moral and cultural defeat of the Church in the West. My friend, who must remain anonymous due to the risk of exposure as a Christian, which would likely cost him tenure, also teaches medical ethics at a major medical school. He points out, radical new frontiers are being explored and old moral and ethical boundaries are being challenged and/or obliterated almost daily within the field of medical science. He argues that modern science is rapidly moving beyond therapy and treatment to “enhancement” and the alteration of human nature itself. He adds that scientific progress into the morally ambiguous areas of human cloning, nanobiotechnology, and neurosciences has achieved such a level that any hope of stopping it at this point is nearly futile.

What he, like the pastor from Las Vegas, argues for is that the current conditions are such that the Church cannot remain in the simple posture of opposition to these issues. The time for preliminary debate has passed and the Christian philosophical contribution was either absent or under-represented. Thus, a new strategy must be considered if we want to have any participation in the discussion from this point forward. Otherwise, we simply will not have a place at the table.

Clearly, we have seen what seems to be the perpetual erosion of morality and ethics in this culture. Roe v. Wade has been the law of the land for more than 30 years now and while abortions are down and opposition to abortion is on the increase, there still seems to be little political or popular will to once-again criminalize abortion. Homosexuality is for the most part widely accepted and if the attitudes of the next generation remain as they are; the present opposition to same-sex marriage will not remain much longer. A higher percentage of children than ever are being born out-of-wedlock in this country and the future of traditional marriage is in grave doubt.

Add to this the growing anti-Christian spirit—much of which emanates from the public battles over these very issues, i.e. the culture wars—and the hope of Christian cultural transformation seems bleak to say the least. More importantly, our present approach to cultural engagement may be hindering the greater mission of Church. Suffice it to say that these factors have caused me to wrestle deeply with my own life and ministry. Am I doing the right thing in the right way? Does what I am doing draw people toward Christ or push them away?

It is not that I am giving up, certainly not! It is merely that I want to understand how best to engage the culture. The world is changing and so much of our current approach may rest on the idea that there still remains a Christian consensus on morality and ethics—that the Christian interpretation of reality is still welcome in the public square. Generally speaking, I am not sure this is the case today. Granted there are “pockets” of Christian consensus but the halls of power and the commanding heights of culture appear generally and emphatically unChristian in their philosophy. If that is true, then we must consider the changing cultural context and adjust our approach to cultural engagement.

I am not suggesting compromise of any kind. I am merely suggesting that the current cultural conditions may be closer to those of the early Church than our grandparents. Our brothers and sisters in the first and second centuries did not labor under a “christianized” culture—quite the contrary—and yet their testimony transformed the world.

They did not mobilize politically, they couldn’t. They had no voice in government. They did not control the educational institutions of their day. Information was strictly controlled by the Roman authorities and any opposing perspectives were quickly and decisively crushed. The moral and ethical consensus was in stark contrast to Christian virtues. Culturally speaking, the Roman world was brutal and completely lacking in compassion. There was nothing socially conducive to the Church and her mission in the world. Sound familiar?

Nonetheless, our first and second century brothers and sisters “lived such good lives” that the unbelieving world could not help but take notice. In the book of Acts we are given some insight into the life and impact of the early Church. What we see is a picture of a “new” people that stood out from the rest of the world and what distinguished them first was their love for one another. They reflected something unprecedented in the Roman world: real and authentic community where people were caring for others and they were of “one heart and soul.” From there this love spread to those outside the faith as the Lord “added to their number day by day.” By contrast, we often appear indifferent, judgmental, radically individualized and intractably divided.

I believe we must continue to speak truth to the culture, especially while we still can. Justin Martyr, the first Christian apologist, labored to commend the Christian faith to the second century Roman authorities, which ultimately cost him his life. However, I also think the present conditions necessitate new ways of thinking if we hope to preserve the opportunity to share the story of Jesus.

In other words, I don’t want to be identified by what I am against but rather what I am for: the kingdom of Christ. I want my apologetic efforts to point people to Christ and not merely the preservation of Christian morality. Preserving Christian morality and ethics will not necessarily lead to Christian conversions but conversion to Christianity will most assuredly lead to true

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S. Michael Craven is the President of the Center for Christ & Culture, a ministry of discipleship and Church renewal that works to equip Christians with an intelligent, thoroughly Christian and missional approach to culture. For more information on the Center for Christ & Culture, additional resources, and other works by S. Michael Craven visit: www.battlefortruth.org

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  • Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Someguy2k please use quotation marks, you should write "creation science" There really is not any science involved as far as i can tell.

  • Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You know i couldnt even finsh reading this page because this guy sounds so pessimistic it was getting sickening! first of all vegas is a city of sin that is what they meant to built it as so ofcourse things are going to look bleek out there! And this guys science friend apparently hasn't been keeping up with the Christian times because now days there are so many Christian Colleges poping up all over the place promoting Real Science, Not that fake junk science that secret society paganists have been spewing for years now this kinda reminds me of when i was watching tv awile back on a morning news show when Dr Keith Ablo was crying that all teens and young people are all sexually active and thats just they way it is, then on the next segment they featured a Christian College where everyone there was abstaining from sex until marriage, That segment made the Dr look like a Bogus liar! Problem is with some Christians is that they are keeping their minds on the negative world rather than the Truth of God they need to focus on all the good things that are springing up these days I mean i never even heard of Christian Colleges when i was a teen on top of that to hear and watch a mainstream media do a report about them and see the young people talk about their faith and how they were abstaining until marriage and i grew up in the inner city westside of denver so I can see the Big Huge strides that Christianity is Truly Progressing as I mean Creation Science museums being Built, Christian teens in sanfransico standing up against sin, More and more Christian Channels Emerging than ever before even one that reaches out to people in Europe called Godtv all the Science that has come about Crushing the Lie of Evolution I mean that Bogus theory has already been exposed and whooped!!! You even got movies coming out on the subject on how liberals in colleges fear Creation Science and this guy who mentioned his friend who is scared to admit he is a Christian well he needs to warn him about When Jesus told people if you deny me before men That He Will Deny you before the Heavenly Father, So the problem with some in the culture war is they need to stop being pessimistic And Wake up To the Reality they are missing out on! That as Always Christianity Marches Onward.

  • Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    1. The author's opinion is that Christianity has lost the culture war. What part of this would anyone argue is false? Everywhere you go people have their heads down and if you mention the name of Jesus Christ outside of your home or church you are putting yourself up as a target for ridicule or hostility, and thought to be a "Jesus freak".

    2. The author argues that we are closer to 2nd century Rome, versus 20th Century America (or thereabouts). This is true as well. Again, if you wear your faith on your sleeve in public you are intolerant, bigoted, homophobic, hypocritical, or all of the above.

    3. The opponents of God and the Christian faith don't attack Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, or any sect or religious idea outside of Fundamentalist Christianity. Why is this? I would submit to you that the reason for the open and unashamed attacks on Christianity is that there is power in the name of Jesus Christ.

    The message of Jesus Christ runs in direct conflict with what society accepts as norm today. This is part of the message of this author's opinion. I'm actually not even sure why the non-Christians are so bitter about this article, as even the author admits defeat. This is not meant to attack the non-Christian, but is actually speaking to the Christian to encourage them to approach their faith in a way that would build relationships with those that don't believe or don't want to hear about Jesus Christ.

    If you can live like Paul suggests in 1 Corinthians 13, then I challenge ANYONE to turn away from that idea or principle. How can you reject unconditional love? It will never harm you, turn against you, or attack you. How can unconditional love be a threat?

    But alas, I'm sure the usual suspects will attack this from whatever angle they desire. And when they attack they won't go after God, or his message of unconditional love, but they'll attack the Christian, who I have already confessed as not being perfect. We are all human, and we all make mistakes. I'll be the first in line to admit I fail, almost on a daily basis, if not more often.

    The message of Jesus Christ is one of love and redemption, and not of hatred. But yes, if you choose sin, God cannot accept it, so yes, God hates sin. So if you have a beef with that, then take it up with God. The Christian didn't create the rules, God did. And as the old saying goes, don't shoot the messenger, which is the Christian.

    My prayer is for the non-Christian, or those attacking my beliefs. I pray that God's love would speak to you. I pray that God would bless your life with good things, and that His love would overwhelm whatever situation you are in. I pray this message finds you, and finds you well. May God bless all of you, in whatever situation you find yourself reading this in.

  • Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Citsonga,

    I haven't spent too much time on it, in my opinion, it is obvious (which is part of the reason why I take a slightly harsher stance against moral relativists, in their case it is not just ignorance, it is blatant and I dare say intentional ignorance). Anyways,I know how it is, I am tired too! Have a good night.

  • Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chris:

    looks like you have a lot of interesting stuff there. Looks like you put a lot of thought into it, I will have to get back with you later in order to provide a decent response on where I might agree and disagree. Just too darn tired tonight.

    citsonga

  • Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    If I could add my own thoughts as well,

    While there are ways of showing how morals are tied to the desire of human beings to "progress" and protect their own interests, there have always existed religious institutions on which those morals relied. There have also always been examples of people who were willing to abandon self-interest and their own lives in order to do what they believed was right. I am of the strong belief that morals are objective, the only way I can justify this objectivity is through my faith in God. I have considered the atheists position and have been unable myself to come up with a satisfactory way of upholding and absolute moral system, and I have yet to hear an atheist based explanation for absolute morals from anyone else. I am still waiting, but I do not see how it can be done.

    My position is simple:

    IF God exists, THEN objective morals can and do exist.

    IF God does not exist, THEN morals must be relative.

    (I would only add that moral relativity is a pathetic and hollow philosophy and it is better to simply say that morals do not exist to spare oneself from the embarrassment of believing in such a silly thing, indeed I would consider a person who believed in pink fairies more rational than one who adopted the idea of moral relativism, and I challenge any person who feels offended by this to stand up for their position) Also this is not to say that God must exist, it is only to say that God must exist if (objective) morals actually exist.

  • Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    citsonga,

    I enjoyed your post, it was well thought. I do have some points to bring up however.

    Firstly, I am not going to speak for the so called "Humans" from 200,000 years ago, the earliest civilizations and closest thing to what I consider a reflective and "human" human, came on the scene about 10,000 years ago. (I am not denying or affirming evolution here, what I am saying is that humans "as we know them" began from about 10,000 years ago.) Nonetheless, your point remains, that over a span of 10,000 years we came from a very low and basic understanding and technological position, to what we have today. You are also correct that cooperation was essential.

    Where I begin to disagree with you is in your assertation that this therefore shows that morals can somehow be based upon this "progress". I agree that progress requires certain moral ideas in many situations, but it does not justify them in an objective sense nor does it justify morals in every case.

    (1) If morals are dependent on progress then, certain ideas we define as heinous should be tolerated for the sake of progress, scientific progress is one example. The Nazi regime was able to accomplish many scientific discoveries through their extremely cruel and brutal treatment of human beings as test subjects as one case (out of a vast amount of cases). (2)Progress itself is not an objective idea, it is largely dependent upon the viewer to define what "progress" is, someone may say that homosexuality impedes "progress" and therefore we must rid the planet of homosexuals so that the human race can "progress"

    Therefore, in order to maintain your position you must sufficiently answer the two above examples (in such a way as to disallow any similar objection to arise) and you must define progress and tell me why every single person on earth must accept your idea, before we can use your proposal.

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chris: “Just to respond to what you said about my comment that enlightenment thinkers were just rationalists.

    Yes reason does not always provide the right answer, I did not say it did, the Enlightenment was great and gave us some good things, as well as some bad, but I was only replying to what someone had said below, I believe Merkin.”

    Sorry about that, I didn’t read carefully enough on this, looks like we are kind of agreement on this.

    “Also, you said, "Survival and progress can be the basis for morality. "”

    “This is a terrible idea, possibly one of the worst 'basis' for morality that I have heard. Unfortunately you are not the first to have said it. So let us see, if survival and progress are the basis for morality, then wars would be fully justified. War actually drives a good deal of scientific progress, and it could easily be used to keep less desirable populations in check. For that matter, whose survival is important? Mine, yours, America's, or all peoples'? Whichever you pick, you have to answer why. Why not just my survival, or the race I belong to? Perhaps you might argue that we need other races as well, well we could make them slaves, I mean if it does benefit survival and helps us to progress. You will have to answer theh question, "Whose survival is the most important?" and give a good reason.”

    Well you do make some good points. However, how would you explain humankind progressing to the extent that it has over a period of about 200,000 years ago for the modern human to have progressed to having the technologies it has developed and has turned its numbers into 6.5 billion people.. It could not have happened without cooperation among fellow humans. Therefore survival and progress can be viewed as a manifestation of a moral code adopted over time by the human animal- treat your fellow human in a manner you wish to be treated translates into having friends around to help you and your offspring survive. Its really pretty simple. It doesn’t require a complicated explanation of religion.

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    merkin,
    Thanks for pointing that out. I couldn't tell by your posts.

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Let me amend that. I don't believe in ANY gods.

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    holito says:
    "As a Christian, we know better than to ridicule God."

    I'm not a Christian, and I don't believe in your god.

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    seedplanter,
    Instead of condescendingly telling me that I'm "naive" and "ill-informed," why don't you post your list of professors who have been fired simply for being Christian. Give me the names and dates if you're so well-informed.

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Well said - one of the best articles I have read on this site in a long time. I hope we conservative Christians are listening!!

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Granted there are “pockets” of Christian consensus but the halls of power and the commanding heights of culture appear generally and emphatically anti-Christian in their philosophy. If that is true, then we must consider the changing cultural context and adjust our approach to cultural engagement.

    I don’t remember hear of the halls of power and the commanding heights of culture in the Bible. I have no recollection of God ever asking the world for advice.
    Now I do recall in Old Testament, God choosing a prophet for every instance of society. God did not change His message; we cannot change the message of Christ just because culture is progressing in an antichristian manner. God has established the Standard (Jesus). He will change or budge.

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    am all for criticism of the Bible and Christian faith, and any real Christian would be also, but I am not talking about criticism, I am talking about hte open and flagrant "bashing" of Christian values and ideas. For instance, a scientist says, "The tenants of the Christian faith are ridiculous, you have to abandon all reason in order to accept them" This is not criticism, it is just a statement trying to make fun of Christians (wrongly), or cartoonists and writers constantly making fun of the Christian faith, with surprisingly little, if any, "criticism" of other faiths, such as Islam.

    Chris333 do not be mislead by merkin's clever words. But there were false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies even denying the Lord which bought them and bringing on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
    By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgement has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

    Ridiculing Christianity and Christian values isn't any more hateful than ridiculing Communism and Communist values. Everybody engages in a little ridicule when they talk about beliefs that they think are stupid. I'm sure you've spoken irreverently about Scientology at some point in your life...?
    As a Christian, we know better than to ridicule God. Be not decieve God is not mocked.

    Read 2 Kings 18-19.

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Nobody is getting fired simply because they are Christian."

    That is rather naive. Whether or not this philosophy professor has any thing to worry about personally, I can’t say. Nevertheless, for you to make such blanket statements only reveal that you are ill-informed. Of course as a theist I was not informed of some of the blights regarding discrimination against atheists, it was not tremendously important to me.

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Chris, Nobody is getting fired simply because they are Christian. Nobody. Craven's comment is hyperbolic at best. You may very well be fired if you try to PROMOTE your religious beliefs in a public institution, but then you deserve it.

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Homosexuality is for the most part widely accepted and if the attitudes of the next generation remain as they are; the present opposition to same-sex marriage will not remain much longer. A higher percentage of children than ever are being born out-of-wedlock in this country and the future of traditional marriage is in grave doubt.

    Christians! we do not serve the world. But we serve a Savior. Christ decleared He had overcome the world. So the world did not defeat Him. He said He had all power in His hand, with God all things are possible. Just because the devil wins a skirmish does not mean he has won the war. As long as God has one faithful, the battle is not over. Remember, Moses stood against Pharoh; Elijah stood against 400 prophets of Baal. All God needs is one to win. What would be possible with 5 faithful in God hands?

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You originally said, "Craven, you schmuck! I am so sick of hearing about Christians being persecuted by academia. It is a ridiculous lie."

    Has anyone noticed God is not concerned with the foolish things of this world. He is still doing what He has said. God is about saving soul. He does send messenger to correct them, but He does not force them to believe. God states the same message to them he has sent to the world. But some men have seared their hearts and minds on rudiments of the world. They have become fools and bring on themselve swift destruction.

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:36 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Then Mr. Craven's world is too small.

    Observe how Russian Christians, Indian Christians, Chinese Christians, Indonesian Christians are adding new saved souls to the body of Christ. The war is not just against the secular humanist, its a war of the Spirit of the Lord against Spirit of the world. Currently there are 2Billion Christians, consider their target in say 10 years from now, 100 years, 1000 years.
    Get out of the box.

    Barukh HaShem, 14 Adar I 5768

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Also, it is not about speaking "irreverantly" persay, rather it is about undue criticism and the threat of losing one's job or at least credibility. I am all for healthy criticism, especially of my own faith, but I am not for giving another the cold shoulder due to their faith, which is most certainly what many are doing in the academic community.

  • Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Merkin,

    My whole point here was to argue that Christians are unfairly criticized and the author above was not exaggerating how some in the academic community are strongly biased against Christians, to the point where their Christian colleagues are made to feel inferior or in threat if they express their faith.

    You originally said, "Craven, you schmuck! I am so sick of hearing about Christians being persecuted by academia. It is a ridiculous lie."

    While I wouldn't necessarily use the word persecuted, Christians are being ridiculed based upon largely foolish presuppositions. I was using the examples in my own case to illustrate this on a small scale.

  • Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chris, I'm sorry to hear you've had bad experiences at college, but I don't know what else to say. I don't buy into "political correctness," and it's not my place to comment on your teachers. I didn't take those classes, and I don't know what was said. I'd just say that ridicule IS a form of criticism—just not a very intelligent or effective one. But come on! Ridiculing Christianity and Christian values isn't any more hateful than ridiculing Communism and Communist values. Everybody engages in a little ridicule when they talk about beliefs that they think are stupid. I'm sure you've spoken irreverently about Scientology at some point in your life...?

  • Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Merkin,

    Sorry, yeah the professor was actually a world religions professor, I didn't mean to portray him as a scientist. Though I have had science professors who were obstinate about Christianity being false also. By pluralism I mean the system of belief that all beliefs are equal and fundamentally the same. It is politically correct to bash Christians, it is politically incorrect to uphold the Bible or biblical values. That is why the book series, "Politically Incorrect Guide to..." has created a politically incorrect guide to the Bible, which is unsurpsingly positive towards the Bible.

    I am all for criticism of the Bible and Christian faith, and any real Christian would be also, but I am not talking about criticism, I am talking about hte open and flagrant "bashing" of Christian values and ideas. For instance, a scientist says, "The tenants of the Christian faith are ridiculous, you have to abandon all reason in order to accept them" This is not criticism, it is just a statement trying to make fun of Christians (wrongly), or cartoonists and writers constantly making fun of the Christian faith, with surprisingly little, if any, "criticism" of other faiths, such as Islam.

    Finally, I am glad you disagree with PC garbage, and I also am glad that, as far as I can see, you haven't involved yourself in petty name calling. I do stand by my statement however that the academia is somewhat against Christianity. I have had history, world religions, and science teachers that have portrayed Christianity in a bad light, many times unjustifiably. I have yet to have a single professor say a positive thing about Christianity.

  • Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    17 For in it there is the revelation of the righteousness of God from faith to faith: as it is said in the holy Writings, The man who does righteousness will be living by his faith. 18 For there is a revelation of the wrath of God from heaven against all the wrongdoing and evil thoughts of men who keep down what is true by wrongdoing;

    19 Because the knowledge of God may be seen in them, God having made it clear to them. 20 For from the first making of the world, those things of God which the eye is unable to see, that is, his eternal power and existence, are fully made clear, he having given the knowledge of them through the things which he has made, so that men have no reason for wrongdoing: 21 Because, having the knowledge of God, they did not give glory to God as God, and did not give praise, but their minds were full of foolish things, and their hearts, being without sense, were made dark. 22 Seeming to be wise, they were in fact foolish.....ROMANS 1:19-22

  • Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I think I should clarify my comment about "political correctness" by saying that Christianity as a belief system should always be open to criticism—or "bashing," as you call it—but that it's in bad taste to bash Christians as people. "Ignorant" and "fool" are two words that come to mind whenever I hear somebody make sweeping statements about religious people as a group—whether Christian, Muslim, or otherwise. That said, I'm probably guilty of stereotyping Christians, myself, from time to time. But I do feel bad about it when I catch it!

    Ideas, on the other hand, should NEVER be exempt from critical evaluation, and anyone who disagrees is an enemy of freedom and democracy.

  • Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chris, many religious people are "just arrogant and full of hot air." So what? It is not politically correct to bash Christians, and for the record, I couldn’t care less about political correctness. Political correctness is one of the more obnoxious values of the Left. Please don't mistake me for a bleeding heart liberal with ambitions of "multiculturalism."

    I have no reason to defend your teacher, but I can’t help noticing that you haven’t mentioned the subject he was teaching. And I really only have a foggy idea what you are talking about when you say “pluralism.”

  • Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Merkin,

    Thanks for the response. Firstly, I made a distinction claiming that on the popular level the situation was different, even to the point where "Christians" make attacks on others (against the Christian faith). Also, I did not try to portray the academia as conspiring, rather I said it like it is. It is politically correct to be liberal, open to varieties of religions, and bash Christianity. My professor did not make a historical attack, he made a truth claim, it is only tied to history in some ways. I say, quite boldly, that anyone who holds a pluralistic worldview has no business making any truth-claim (they have enough contradictions in their own perspective). Many scientists are just arrogant and full of hot air, it has nothing to do with being ideologically attacked.

  • Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Chris, there is no Illuminati. "Academia" doesn't hold secret meetings in candlelit basements where they plot to undermine Christianity. You talk about academia as though it were some united body of like thinkers. Of course that's not so. Everybody has their own perspectives, and many college professors are privately religious. It's really odd I think, as an atheist, to hear Christians paint themselves as some sort of persecuted minority. Just put yourself in my shoes for a moment, and think about how odd that must sound. In a country as outspokenly Christian as the US, I constantly hear complaining about the pervasiveness of evil, secular humanism. I can only wish it were so.

    As for your professor, I agree that his "pluralistic" ideas about Christianity sound unhistorical.
    And as for scientists, I can only imagine that it becomes pretty trying when you have to defend your research from transparently ideologically-based attacks.

  • Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    seedplanter: Which challenge was that? Are you referring to "which secular humanists supported WIlliam Wilberforce?" None, because Secular Humanism didn't exist at the time. It's a mid-20th century phenomena. So your "challenge" proves nothing.

  • Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Seedplanter,

    Thanks, I have enjoyed your posts as well. Citsonga and Citizen are trying to twist history in some way that gives a favorable light on their perspectives, it is admirable that they would try to defend their views, but it is wrong nonetheless.

    Merkin,

    It is not just about the respect, it is about credibility and ability to work with one's colleagues. Academia harrasses the mess out of Christians, it is crazy. I once had a professor tell the class that it was impossible to take the Bible as complete truth, and said he would not even debate it (something about it wasn't appropriate in class if I remember correctly...) Mind you this was in a South Carolina University. Of course he was just wrong, and his position fell in line somewhere with pluralism, the most ridiculous and selfcontradictory of all views perhaps, but oh well he succeeded in using his podium to try to sway the minds of young Christians into some kind of liberal all embracing agenda. Many in the scientific community are downright arrogant (not all, but a good deal, especially the higher up ones).

  • Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I have to agree with you mbres, that the writer does seem rather quick to surrender and announce defeat.

    Chris333, I have appreciated your posts here and there. Thanks for the input: “The enlightenment thinkers were just rationalists, they believed that all could be discovered by reason, they were largely a product of the Protestant Reformation, in any case, whether they were reacting against Christianity or because of it, they were mostly arguing from a Christian perspective.”

    I noticed that citizen did not respond to you or me.

    Vishal Mangalwadi is publishing a great work called, The Book of the Millennium, in which he surveys the historical influence of Scripture on the West. I had the pleasure of meeting him at L’Abri’s conference in St Louis a few years ago. You can download his lectures at http://www.maclaurin.org/lectures.php where they have something like 8 messages that he gave on the subject of his new book. You can also google his name with “~mp3”.


    citsonga & citizen, I am still waiting for your reply to my challenge.

  • Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    When we stand before the Lord on judgement day, we will not have to answer for what everybody else chose to do. We WILL have to answer for our own actions though. We should pray for others and live our lives the way the Bible tells us to, regardless of what the world is doing. The back of my Bible tells me that we WIN.

  • Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mbres,
    Amen. Very well put.

  • Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    What nowire doesn't realize is that laws change. Get enough people together, and things can, and will, change. Athiests talk all the time about Christians having their heads in the sand. It seems now the tables have turned.
    Trust me, wire. The day is coming. Remember, 30 years ago the idea of homosexual marriages would never have been imagined, much less entertained. But that has changed in the spirit of "tolerance". See how easy it would be, in the spirit of "tolerance" to quiet Christians who speak out? The world is leaning more and more towards tolerance and acceptance, and those who are not tolerant will eventually be dealt with.
    But the idea of tolerance is such a joke. We need to tolerate each other's lifestyles and opinions. But those who preach such rhetoric can't tolerate Christians lifestyles and opinions. Hypocritical is what it's called.

  • Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:04 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Chris, it's completely disingenuous to say that somebody will likely lose tenure for being a Christian! If atheist colleagues don't respect you because of your religious beliefs, that's too bad, but it's a different complaint altogether. And please don't bring up that whiny failure, Guillermo Gonzalez. He was NOT denied tenure because he was a Christian. He was denied because of his history of bringing supernatural explanations into his science. Furthermore, his tenure wasn't revoked—he never had tenure to begin with.

  • Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:33 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    The piece is well written and thoughtful but the bottom line sounds all too much like "giving in" or perhaps giving up!

    Perserverence will bring persecution but this is a battlefield not a playground and the purpose of the battle is the souls of men.

    MB www.americanprophet.org

  • Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:36 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Nowire,

    Why all the intolerance?

  • Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:03 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    NoWire, despite your efforts to paint Prophet as some marginalized crank, he makes sense. How many news stories have you seen wherein Christian protestors are arrested on public sidewalks in front of abortion mills or in the vicinity of pro-homosexual demonstrations and are denied their rights of freedom of speech? In most cases courts have upheld the rights of Christians to protest, but there are exceptions (the Philadelphia five, among others) and it is not far-fetched to see what Prophet has predicted in this regard to come to pass. In our "tolerant" society, the only thing that can't be "tolerated" is "intolerance", so "intolerance" toward "Christians" is the only non-tolerance that is tolerable.

  • Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:08 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Then Prophet you didn't understand what I meant. In the future, even if you come to be considered as rotten as the KKK is considered now (which based on another post of yours I've read, isn't too far off), you will still have your free speech and you will not be jailed. Furthermore, by then you will have branched off completely from mainstream Christianity anyway so it won't be "anti-Christianity" sentiment; it'll be anti-whatever-you-noncompassionate-folks-decide-to-call-yourselves sentiment.

  • Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    No Wire,
    Do you even read the posts before you answer? Or do you just glance throught them to find things to rebut, and embarass yourself.
    You said "We will be jailed for speaking our beliefs."(?!)

    Oh, I don't think so. Right now we even allow the KKK to speak their beliefs without being jailed, so your message of intolerance is safe under the law."

    If you noticed that my post said "We WILL be jailed..." as in "in the future". You said "Right now ..." to which I say "duh!" I know what it is right now, and I also know where it's going.

  • Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    citsonga,

    Just to respond to what you said about my comment that enlightenment thinkers were just rationalists.

    Yes reason does not always provide the right answer, I did not say it did, the Enlightenment was great and gave us some good things, as well as some bad, but I was only replying to what someone had said below, I believe Merkin.

    Also, you said, "Survival and progress can be the basis for morality. "

    This is a terrible idea, possibly one of the worst 'basis' for morality that I have heard. Unfortunately you are not the first to have said it. So let us see, if survival and progress are the basis for morality, then wars would be fully justified. War actually drives a good deal of scientific progress, and it could easily be used to keep less desirable populations in check. For that matter, whose survival is important? Mine, yours, America's, or all peoples'? Whichever you pick, you have to answer why. Why not just my survival, or the race I belong to? Perhaps you might argue that we need other races as well, well we could make them slaves, I mean if it does benefit survival and helps us to progress. You will have to answer theh question, "Whose survival is the most important?" and give a good reason.

  • Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    “This is the beginning of the persecution.”

    You may not be too far off base. Many atheists that seek to “eliminate faith” do not distinguish how they wish to do so, Dawkins included.

  • Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    "We will be jailed for speaking our beliefs."(?!)

    Oh, I don't think so. Right now we even allow the KKK to speak their beliefs without being jailed, so your message of intolerance is safe under the law.

  • Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:36 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

    This is the beginning of the persecution. Soon, Christians will be labeled usurpers, anti-government, intolerant (already being called that), and even traitors. We will be jailed for speaking our beliefs. They will work to quiet the voice of truth. Laws regarding the right to free speech will be changed in order to facilitate their agenda. Much the same way the right to life was changed for the unborn. The world will be concerned with the "good of mankind", which is errant, self-centered, and destructive, instead of being concerned with the Truth of God.
    That is evident on this website. Athiests and humanists refuse to patronize the websites of those who believe as they do, opting instead to run through the message boards of Christian sites, trying to incite Christians into doing or saying something that will give them ammunition to further their cause.
    Fellow Christians, remain faithful to the truth. Seek His wisdom in all you do and say. Be as wise as a snake, but as harmless as a dove. Speak Truth in boldness, taking no thought for the acceptance of man who is fleeting and mortal. He has no hold over your eternity. He can only kill your body. But seek the acceptance of the One who has your soul firmly within His grasp, and none can pluck you from it. His eternal life is worth more than what man can offer. Do not sway. Do not stray.

  • Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    You can rant about Christians and I can rant about atheism. The latter has caused more devastation and bloodshed in the last century than all theistic religions put together. Nevertheless, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you would have voted for William Wilberforce. Can you think of any secular humanists that supported him?

  • Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    citsonga: “Survival and progress can be the basis for morality. If the human animal had not developed some notion of treating others properly and learning to work well together, then we would not have survived as a species to the extent that we have.”

    Do you mean like the Bolshevik Revolution?

    Cit: “Evangelicals just cant seem to believe that people cant be good without being Christian… you can be good without religion. There are bad atheists, there are good atheists.”

    No, you are wrong in your presumptions about what Christians think about the possibility of good atheists. Of course atheists can be good people; I do think that the morality is attributed to Christianity. Christian morality is actually propagated by numerous humanists.

    Cit: “There is probably genetic components to it…”

    That’s interesting; I’ve actually argued the same thing. I think it can be argued that atheism is actually a mutation that will prove to be less than adequate as a survival mechanism, if religion is in fact a product of evolution.

    If theism is in fact a product of natural evolution, then why would the new atheists work against it the very thing that they seem to believe in? It seems rather counterproductive, kind of like some of your arguments.

  • Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    sp "Actually, I think the point is that secular humanism has no basis for morality."

    Survival and progress can be the basis for morality. If the human animal had not developed some notion of treating others properly and learning to work well together, then we would not have survived as a species to the extent that we have.. This is largely true in the animal kingdom. The great apes probably dont worship a god, yet they learned to get along in groups or families, if for no other reason, survival. In a sense, a moral code.

    Evangelicals just cant seem to believe that people cant be good without being Christian, very odd. Perhaps its the company you keep or the way you were raised that brings you to this conclusion. There is probably genetic components to it as well-religiosity. I conclude the opposite, you can be good without religion. There are bad atheists, there are good atheists. True for Christians too.


    "I doubt that you would have voted William Wilberforce in office; he was quite the moralist, as an Evangelical Christian who fought for the abolition of slavery to his dying day. "

    Yet other Christians made the opposite arguments., Based on the Bible, slavery was justified by slave holders and the millions that fought in the US civil war in defense of slavery (oh yeah, they called it states rights.....LOL).

    "“There is no place in the Humanist worldview for either immortality or God"

    Yeah, the immortality thing. The number one reason for religion- the fear of death....the end....very compelling reason to be religious for billions of people.


    I flagged myself for correction.

  • Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Citsonga: “Hey, then we can bring back slavery”

    That is a joke, I doubt that you would have voted William Wilberforce in office; he was quite the moralist, as an Evangelical Christian who fought for the abolition of slavery to his dying day.

  • Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    America’s Christian heritage does not imply a theocracy in the since that you implied, although there were local governments that did attempt to adopt such legal practices. I would have to say that as Christians disagreed then, more would no doubt disagree now with theocratic rule. I personally do not subscribe to it in the strictest sense. I do agree with the founding fathers gleaning from Scripture as they birthed the greatest 'democratic republic' the world has ever seen.

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